The industry again needs compliant fools to support the current thing. Crazy. A hooked rim with a normal GP5000 and a cheap Ridenow TPU tube, that's all a road bike needs. But not so many companies can participate in the market this way.
Where I live(the land of goatheads), a TPU just means you can fit more of them in your saddlebag. Sometimes I don't even get off my block without getting 1-3 goatheads in my tires, often in both wheels. If I have more than 1, I pluck them out and keep riding. If I have 1, I just ride until it breaks and leaves the thorn in my tire that would have definitely peirced any tube.
Even after this video explanations, still don’t see how hookless is better. Seems like the main reason is that it is cheaper to manufacture, so brands & zipp get higher margins. It’s not only a concern on high pressures, but on very low air pressure cyclocross or muddy gravel days (under 20psi) when the tire could burp or detach.
That's why these hookless wheel manufacturers pay presenters, channels, and websites to convince people that "hookless rims are safe". It's all marketing. There is no upside for the consumer and the benefit is only on the manufacturers.
@@ArtanisKizrath Note this is not a paid video. It’s worth acknowledging that this isn’t “the industry” as a whole. You have well respected brands like DT Swiss that aren’t sold on the concept. You also have well educated consumers who actually like the concept. The reality is in between, it’s not nearly as dangerous as some people say, and it’s also not as world changing as others say. I’ve been riding hookless for the last 4-5 years on the road, and I’ve run compatible tires, incompatible tires, with and without tubes, with approved and non approved rim tape, and I’ve run tire pressure that is technically over the limit, I’ve flown with the wheels forgetting to deflate them, etc. No issues. Much ado about nothing. 🤷🏻♂️
Well you can get ZIPP 303s for £750, or 303 Firecrest for £1400. they do come with a lifetime crash replacement guarantee. I can't see a better value on the market. If you buy from directly from FE at most you get 2 years guarantee.
Hookless is a cost cutting exercise to maximize profit, plain and simple. Not all cyclists are mindless. No amount of marketing spam like this will change that.
Totally agree this video is a Pirelli advert that is not worth your life. There are several videos showing hookless tyres coming off at less than 73 psi.
Agreed, I'm a fairly big lad 95kg, and cornering doesn't instil confidence at just max 73 psi. Scared of burping already had a crash with normal tubeless with a puncture once air was too low.
Actually the reasons are stated in the video: increased rider comfort, better cornering grip, better system efficiency, etc. Whether you feel the pros outweigh the cons is a personal decision. For most riders, including myself, the pros of hookless wheels are compelling and the drawbacks either don’t apply to me or are statistically insignificant.
My brain hurts watching this. Remember when you bought a tire, installed it, pumped it up, and then you rode off into the sunset? I don't want a system that makes me do math in the morning OR ELSE I COULD DIE. Insane.
You completely missed the biggest concern. What is the risk of the tyre coming off in the event of a sudden flat or blow out and how to prevent that. This is the key concern for most when it comes to hookless.
Sure it will. If you buy a $2800 pair of carbon hookless wheels, and compare it to stock aluminum wheels, or a wheel set in the $300-$500 range, you'll save 200g, and another 5-8g with a much lighter wallet.
yea I bought a set of hooked carbon GRX wheels that are 1450grams all in with valves and tape on sale for $1100 I highly doubt a set of hookless gravel wheels out there is under 1250 grams@@christopherharmon9336
TO ALL HOOKLESS MANUFACTURERS: We the people are smarter than you think. You lost. Cut your losses and go back to hooks before you deal with class action lawsuits.
Alex, even taking into consideration who is paying you to publish this, I find your informational video disturbingly lacking of evidence, misguided and even to the point of being potentially high risk. The aerodynamic claims have not been shown. The weight saving of 200g per wheel set for omitting the bead is unproven and I suspect highly exaggerated. The difference in recommended rider weight vs safe pressure between Zipp’s own recommendations and the other unstated manufacturer’s guidelines is highly dubious. The only advantage to hookless is the reduced cost to the manufacturer which isn’t passed on to the consumer. The safety implications of hookless is all that the consumer sees. You and GCN should be feeling highly embarrassed to publish this video.
Exactly my thoughts as well. GCN has really crossed the line. It's one thing to pay the bills by helping companies market their products in an entertaining way. It's another to promote a terrible and unsafe product. And this feels personal too. I liked Alex but this is too much, he has ruined his personal credibility
Yeah that weight limit difference does not inspire confidence. I'm either well over the limit or well under it. So I should just use the calculator that says it's OK and cross my fingers?
Most of the ”pros” of hookless seemed so contradictory, this was painful to watch. First mentioning ”better aerodymics” and seamlessly transitioning to ”hookless is best for gravel riding” from there. I thought gravel riding was all about wide tires & low pressures which makes aerodynamics completely secondary? A typical carbon rim at a popular 40-60mm depth usually weighs 400-500 g per rim, so taking 100 g off from the rim’s lip construction is just ludacrous. That example of ”perfectly usable” tire pressures was also quite dubious. I can’t believe how a strict limit of 73 psi and riding pressure of 67-68 psi for a typical middle weight rider and middle tire size can be included in the same equation, as I know for a fact my pumps have about 5 psi worth of measurement error between them. Also, TSS = Tubeless Straight Side, not Sight. I hope GCN could discuss these ”developments” with a straighter sight.
The fact you need to jump through all these hoops and meet a specific set of criteria (for not-super-light people on road tyres) to avoid having your tyres fly off the rim when going downhill seems a pretty hard sell compared to the other tyre setups, for the marginal aero gains and weight saving.
The manufacturers will also make it a lot harder for rider to lodge a claim against them when the tyre rolls or blows off, all they will say is you didn't use the recommended pressure and in order to prove you did use the correct pressure you will need to take a video everytime you pump up your tyres, use a digital tyre gauge for recording, and the manufacturer will just say the gauge wasnt calibrated correctly.
I think he's referring to the width of the rim, hookless can be wider meaning the leading edge of the tire won't have that "light bulb" effect. That's probably such an insignificant advantage, you could make it up on hooked wheels by getting lower on the front end of your bike. So yeah, you're right, it's dubious as hell to suggest that hookless wheels are magically more aero.
@@M3GRSD I’m confused. You just said that the difference would have to be made up with rider position (outside the wheel system), which would mean it has an irrecoverable disadvantage. I will happily admit that rider position is the biggest difference in aerodynamics of the entire bike/rider, but there’s some strange mental gymnastics here.
This type of video is just undermining GCN’s credibility, they are not safe compared to hooked and is not worth the risk, you are not doing justice to yourself or to the population!111
Hi, thanks for taking your time to comment. I'm not sure how you can feel that a video highlighting the pros and cons of a system so that individuals can have more information to make their own decisions is doing myself an injustice. What hookless wheels or tubeless tyres have you tried? Hookless tech isn't going to be for everyone and I'm totally cool with that. Hopefully the industry allows people to continue to have options.
@@alexpatonGCN thank for the reply. The Reason, hookles rims have been invented, is that it’s cheaper to manufacture, so they can make more profit, why risk your safety and your life, to save a few grams of weight
they dont have much choice when their sponsosrs force videos like this on them, at least they do give both sides...but if they didnt theyd just lose subscribers
Couldn’t agree more. I’ve seen real world videos showing it blow off. Even for a small chance of occurrence, I choose hooked for peace of mind of not crashing or having a blow out.
I totally agree, the shittiest idea ever! I got a set of carbon hookless on my Giant tcr. Got rid of the sealant straight away to tpu tubes! Job done apart from crappy low 73psi pressures! Not good
Hookless tubeless is much better a small number of years in than hooked clinchers were 20 and even 30 yrs in. Working in a shop, I used to have to use 2 layers of cotton tape to get a tire seated. I've also broked beads that were too small. Did both more times than I can count.
In Germany we say “mir geht der Hut hoch”. Meaning that it’s becoming ridiculous. I am a real longtime fan of the channel but this video is complete bs. Not a word of the real dangers when manufacturers miss the tolerance. Everyone riding these at their own risk. And just yesterday the video about pressure which also misses out a lot of factors. And that stupid tyre pressure calculator. Is there any hope for GCN?
Hookless is good for wheel manufacturers and basically useless to negative for consumer's I've seen enough videos of tyre's being spontaneously ejected from the rim to know it's not something i want to risk.
Alex mentioned ETRTO but forgot to mention that for road rims with 25mm internal width they no longer recommend 28mm tires which Alex shows as the “standard” road tire. ETRTO recommends 30mm tires as the smallest tire you should be running safely and honestly for road that’s a little too big and heavy for my taste. I prefer 28mm tires. Definitely a pass on hookless for me.
After thinking 32s would be winter only for me, I stuck with them all summer and definitely prefer it. I'm on 35s when I'm riding worse roads. Don't think I'll ever run 28s on anything but a TT bike ever again
@@veganpotterthevegan ever try 30? Comfort isn't everything unless it keeps you off the bike. But at that point you gotta look at suspension because with the saddle and tires combined can often give more travel than suspensions
@@veganpotterthevegan most ppl have bike fit problems if not chronic pain issues. I ride 25s 90 to 100 psi all types of roads even a little gravel at times never had comfort issues on 100 plus mile rides. And I use a selle Italia slr with no cut out so it's rock hard for some reason, whereas the cut out version flexes 5 mils give or take, to me that's not enough support. Both have design flaws clearly.
@timtaylor9590 I was a sought after bike fitter for over a decade and one of the first 10 certified Retul fitters in the US. I know plenty about fitting. I also have over 300k miles in my legs and didn't know I liked 32mm tires until I road them. Didn't think I'd like 35s until I road those either😅
You get a pumcture. You repair it with a tube and use co2 vartridge to inflate it. How confident are you that its less than 73psi as you clip in and ride on?
Yeah.. go hookless for all the advantages only to not be able to choose a tire that's faster, grippier and lighter. Also there's so many "advantages" listed in this video that are either misinformed or that Zipp didn't really take advantage of. Quick couple examples: - Hookless lighter? I can think of at least 8 brands of wheels of the top off my head that are hooked and lighter. - Hookless drove carbon wheel prices down? No. Carbon wheel prices were going down long before hookless was even mentioned in road biking. Chinese wheel manufacturers who build equal or far better quality wheels than western brands and charging 1/3 the price. That's what drove prices down. All wheels can be dangerous. Hookless is way more dangarous than hooked and it's supported by data at this point. How many more high profile crashes do we wanna watch before we admit that?
Seen too many videos of tyres being ripped off hookless rims when put to the test. Yes they were probably set up wrong but in a big market where you are selling to pro’s and pure beginners safety has to come first.
Problem with ROAD hookless is there are very specific pressure limitations that are not explained by manufacturers or people selling the hookless rims. Add this to the generally clueless level of the tire pressure they should be running, the "recommended" pressures on the tires and few using a reliable pressure gauge and you are asking for trouble. All in all it seems for the road it is a solution looking for a problem.
sounds like way too complicated for some un-measurable performance difference. just run the lower pressure on hooked rims. it might work for light riders with full support crews. but for normal people, it's extra complexity for no good reason. and the consequences for getting it wrong mean tire comes off the wheel
I used to be sold out on hookless when I first used it. After a while I realised what a big expensive mistake I had done. The tire limitations is a pain. Tire compatability is a mine field. Now, I have downgraded my 404 zipps to gravel riding with 42mm tires. I know it looks ridiculous, but I can not sell the wheels as no one would buy it. I paid a lot money for it and I dont want to sell it cheap. So gravel wheels it is!!
After watching this video, I am still not remotely convinced that there is any compelling reason to use hookless rims on any bicycle, much less a road bike. The main advantage seems to be that hookless rims reduce production headaches for wheel manufacturers; for riders, the tiny advantages mentioned here are more than offset by the huge disadvantages. Since I personally prefer to use more-supple clincher tyres with TPU tubes rather than tubeleless, I can't see myself ever switching away from hooked wheels.
What I can't get past is the 'limitations' between the hookless rim and the 'approved' hookless tiers for your particular brand of wheel. At least with a hooked rim (tubeless or otherwise) i can use any tire I want without fear of compatibility and/or liability issues. The problem is; there seems to be a severe lack of industry standard because right now, every player in the market wants to be the "industry standard". MAVIC already solved this problem decades ago. Why can't we all just settle on UST?
The only reason we're being pushed hookless is the same reason we were pushed press fit bottom brackets... it's cheaper for the manufacturer, while they can upcharge us for the "new technology". No doubt it'll go away in a few years, just like press fit bottom brackets.
@zachschmidt7417 Specialized, Trek and Cannondale stopped with the press fit and their prices went up for them and us. Wheels went to hookless and the prices have gone down for them and us.
It's a real shame cycling has never had a Ferrari or ducati of its own. Don't get me wrong it's good that there's a competitive market but when one brand is the gold standard it incentiveises everyone else to copy them and standardise on one plan, one size, one one configuration, etc. If cycling could make it's mind up and stay still for a while like a normal sensible industry some of these prices could finally come down
Don’t believe the 200g claim (some of the lightest wheels are hooked), nor the aerodynamics claim either (based on the 105% rule, there is enough rim width to create the same outer profile either hooked or hookless).
Hookless. I would'nt touch that with a bargepole. Unless you're willing to risk your life to increase manufacturers' margins. The rim is supposedly more aerodynamic but you can only run them safely with >40mm tyres on gravel if you weigh more than 130lbs 😂
@@jakethesnake1976 trouble is, the optimal tyre pressure for a 110kg rider on a 28mm tyre is much higher than that. You’d smash the rim to bits if you hit a pothole.
It shows on one of the cobble classics when that tyre flew off that pro riders front wheel . Tubless yes .. Hookless rim yes . If he had a clincher rim that tyre would have held on alot longer
Bike industry got desperate to sell something, alomg came Disc Brakes on road bikes. Just a fad that sucked in everyone. Now its Tubeless tyres, Hooked ,Hookless, and a myriad of tyre pressures. I will stick with tyres and tubes and the good old no guesswork 100psi.
I had Zipp 303s and they used to fill up with with water because the seal between the bead and the rim was so bad. That was with hookless compatible tyres too. Sketchy AF. Never mind the fact the freehub was draggy and poorly sealed and the axle bearings wouldn’t seat properly and wore out in a couple of weeks.
Theres always a little play on zipp hubs. The bearings needs replacing often. In regards to water ingression, I do winter riding, mostly wet and cold. Used the 404s first time in the wet, got home had water inside the rim. I thought it was the sealant but when i started shaking I coukd see water coming out of the spokes. I ran very low psi, about 30 psi, 42mm tires. I also had a bit if sealant on the rim edges. so maybe i was running a bit to low pressure. However, the water inside the rim, baffed me as i didnt cycle over any big paddles. Gonna have to investigate.
@@adossantos69751 got you. I mean my tyres literally filled with water!! Not the rim cavity. When I removed the tyre it had water in it, the sealant was completely diluted!
Have Zipp done extensive testing descending l'Alpe d'Huez at 40 mph on hookless rims and getting a front wheel puncture? No, you haven't convinced me one bit. The only thing most riders are convinced of is that this is another cynical ploy by manufacturers to cut costs which are not passed on to the customer.
I heard this discussion quite often. But what is the actual difference on a hooked system? If you do not react well, a slight turning of the front wheel, will be catastrophic. In any case you have to hope to be able to brake on your rear to a low enough velocity to not crash in the next corner. I do not believe, that we will get arround that corner on a flat tire on a hooked rim either. Or did somebody achieve this masterpiece, already? And there is one advantage in riding hook- and tubeless. There is no way to miss, you are getting a flat 😊
I hit 56mph descending a local climb. I had no worries about my Zipp303s. That being said, getting a flat at that speed would've been catastrophic regardless of the wheel design.
So, essentially, it's a bit cheaper but only compatible with certain tires and I now have to worry that my pump's gauge may not be accurate enough to keep the pressure within the safe range? I would rather pay a bit more and not have to think twice about pumping my tires. The value proposition sounds even worse than for tubeless.
So hookless makes rims lighter because there is less material, and also stronger because there is more material. I think the marketing is being done by two different teams. I still fail to see any advantage other than it costs less to make them to the manufacturer, and it won’t cut your specialized turbo cotton tires to failure.
Could you please provide detailed information about the number of ZIPP 303 firecrest and 454NSW warranties that have been processed by ZIPP this year? I have personally encountered at least a dozen incidents where my customers experienced tire blowouts with their ZIPP hookless wheels since Jan 2023. While I appreciate most of the content produced by GCN, I believe it would be beneficial if you gathered more statistics from local shops instead of solely relying on your sponsor's promotional strategies.
Notice how they did not provide single example ? Nor for one case where you have cheaper hookless wheel in comparison :) but lets say it is lighter- then hookles specific tire is going to be heavier because it has to have stronger bead.
I almost bought a tcr on sale, but the rims were hookless and i wasn't sure about it. Thank you to the comments section here for confirming I made the right choice by passing on it.
The thing is whether you think road tubeless is worth it or not you can't deny that it at the very least offers something over standard clinchers and tubes, depending on various factors and personal priorities it may not be enough to make you want to switch or use it on all bikes, all the time but its there. But road hookless offers what over hooked tubeless? I already have tubeless, I can already run lower pressures, and wider tyres (of which I am not nearly as limited on selection) and I can revert to tubes and standard tyres if I want/need to. You guys have shown multiple times in various videos that decent carbon wheelsets are as tough as nails already and don't need to be "stronger". What does that leave? Highly dubious at best (outright BS at worst) weight savings, wishy washy aero claims, and the promise things might get cheaper in the future? And that's BEFORE we get to potential safety issues.
Hookless is fine when used according to specifications. The problem is that the difference between specification and "tires blowing off" is too small to be a suitable consumer technology. Hookless is just one class action lawsuit away from being an industry disaster. @GCNTech I know you have to pay the bills, but I am surprised you want to get involved in what will inevitably become an industry train wreck.
sorry but the slight aerodynamic and weight advantages do not make up for the obvious safety downsides. while riding, one must now carry an accurate pressure gauge to not overinflate the tires. can't use a co2 canister anymore because of the overinflation risk. let's also suppose an 80kg rider purchases a hookless rim/tire combo, perhaps during some sales, and then goes online to check the pressures and either finds out different calculators give different values or even finds that the chosen combo is not even approved to work together. this does not feel like progress, except for the 1% who race professionally and have support cars and mechanics at their disposal, not for the average weekend rider
Since Zipp looks to have just ended rim brake and hooked rims, perhaps they are using GCN for market research on the fallout before they trash the molds?
Here's the question every rider should ask of hookless rims - what happens if you bombing down a epic or not so epic downhill run be it gravel or boring tarmac and you burp the tyre wall out of the rim from hitting some debris just because you got the tyre pressures even so slightly wrong? Been using hookless rim tech for a very long time on my other modes of transportation like my motorcycles & cars but I'm always been very fussy with the tyre pressures and the tyre walls a profoundly thicker & stronger at lower pressures then bicycle tyre width or casing thickness will ever be, and yes that is with riding a bicycle at legal open road speeds or above given a right proper downhill run. Hookless rims on modern bike with modern tech level tubeless hooked rim tyres, no fecking thankyou I'd rather have all my bones & skin keeped in tacked .
Hookless rims give me nightmare visions of Michelin Elan tires blowing off rims in the early 80s despite only being pumped to 70 psi. Sorry, not going back.
I predict that hookless will be a real turn off for the majority of riders and a big mistake for those manufacturers pushing it. Minimal gains no one cares about for more expensive tyres, more difficult to get on and off, more things to worry about on the pressure front and your mates constantly telling you your tyres will peel off.. 😂
110 Kg at 72psi?! I call shenanigans! I weigh 215 lbs (you made me do the math, so now it's your turn) and if I ride lower than 80psi on my 28mm tires, my back tire looks like I'm running flat.
Heck, I'm 185lbs and going below 80 psi feels way too soft and squirmy for me on my 28mm... being at the utmost limit at 73 doesn't seem like a good idea to me and I'm not fitting a 30mm on my Madone SLR
I have hooked rims from HED with 65psi pressure limit for 28mm tires. What I'm saying is: please, please, PLEASE, always check the pressure limits on your wheels and tires and never exceed them, hookless or not, tubeless or not.
Hookless is no fancy "technology" but a standard. It had been just a case that Extralite failed to meet the specs on its hookless rims (too small in diameter) and a Continental GP5000 S TR (hookless compatible) tire can blow off the rim at 72psi. As a component critical to rider's safety, I don't think consumers shall take the risk at this moment.
GCN have really sold their soul for this one. How many more times will a company name need to be mentioned and flashed on a screen before it is declared an ad. No mention of the confusion of wheel maximums and tyre manufacture minimum pressures. Hookless is not needed and a gimmick which will end up leading to a lawsuit someday.
So far, manufacturers only certify a relatively small number of tires for their hooklees wheelsets. This really limits tire choice and makes the rider dependent on the wheelset maker's choices. For me that makes hookless a nonstarter.
Its funny that GCN Alex is walking at beginning of video, scared to ride hookless maybe???? And i notice there is not one, not one response from GCN as far as i can see about the fact they're flogging a dead horse! Both scenarios speak volumes to me!!!!
I've actually seen a tubeless tire come off a hookless rim mid ride. That rider fell and 3 other people who were on his wheel crashed with him. He ended up with several broken ribs and a broken collarbone. Now, I don't know whether it was user error on setting up the wheels and tires or not but I can tell you I've ridden for 25 years and I've never seen a clincher with tubes or a hooked tubeless do that. At the end of the day, you can blame of the users who setup tires incorrectly but to me, it seems like they've increased the complexity to save 200 grams but added the very real risk of a catastrophic blowout. Do you think I want to ride with the person who buys these things from the manufacturer but lacks the technical acumen to set them up properly and they become a ticking time bomb? It can't be this hard and has to be more reliable and intuitive for the average rider. The cons for the average user outweigh the risk IMO. Now, on a pro team with mechanic and a light rider, maybe, but most of your average riders aren't mechanically adept and don't weigh 55kg.
When you have to argue the most invisible marginal gains vs major things like safety, ease of use, and tire choice, you've already lost. 👎 I've actually ended up NOT looking at TCRs because the stock rims are hookless. I guess I'm looking at older used bikes, and the bike industry continues to slide downhill.
Hookless isn't a technology. It is the lack of a hook. I still don't know "why" they did this. It didn't improve anything. It just made the manufacturing process cheaper for the companies and everything else more complicated for the consumer. Weight savings? He's saying 200 grams per wheelset. That's quite a bit. I say BS. It would be negligible at best. Better aerodynamics? I say BS. The tire should sit against rim the same with or without hooks and would be more dependent on the tires, not the rims. Again, negligible at best. Better comfort? That is all dependent on the size of the tires and tire pressures which can be the same with or without hooks. You can ride really low pressures with hooked wheels too. I call total BS on this one. Hooked tubeless ready clinchers are the best bet to give you the ability to ride both tubes and tubeless, a better variety of tires that are available, and the extra safety measure of a hook to keep your tires secure. I still don't see any advantage for hookless. If anything, it's the other way around.
Shocked to see GCN shilling to sponsors again. Next up: 10 reasons why you need to buy the latest most expensive tech which is only marginally different to what you currently have - reason one: it just feels better!
Issue is you have ETRTO 'standards' there not regulations. Multiple tyre manufacturers mixed with multiple wheel manufacturers isn't a good mix. In my experience being a bicycle mechanic I've fitted tyres to the same rim one being a pro1 which was far easier to mount than p zero. There all slightly different meaning if you have a more forgiving tyre to mount onto a rim that's not as tight it can be a disaster waiting to happen. Personally I'd just stick with the hook.... Yes cars use hookless but car tyres also have a steel bead which won't stretch unlike a bicycle tyre.... Car tyres are also used at a much lower volume of pressure usually around 30psi over a much much wider tyre
Princeton Carbon Works make arguably the fastest carbon wheels in the world They refuse to go hookless as they don't think it's worth it for various reasons This might just be the worst GCN video ever.
Hookles means, that if you get a big puncture (or cut) in higher speed, you are probably dead, because tire will fall off quite easy = it will damage the frame, rim will get destroyed by rolling on the ground and you end up with your face on the ground as well 😂. But its worth it, manufacturer will make some more money on allready 300% overpriced wheelset. NO THANKS!
Hey ZIPP/SRAM (plus GCN)... please read the room and listen to all the hundreds of comments below (in less than 24 hours no less). For Road Cycling the vast majority of people are not interested in Hookless and see no advantages to them! I'm sorry if you've spent millions changing all of your manufacturing equipment over to Hookless only wheels, but no amount of marketing will convince us that hookless is of any benefit! I've never ran hookless wheels, but I'm sure, on the balance of probabilities, it's a perfectly good system (better for low pressure MTB/Gravel than road IMHO)... if you are careful to ensure everything stays within the correct standards and tolerances. But here's the thing... Me and most people, just want to put any tyre, on any wheel, pump it up to any reasonable pressure than our tiny cyclist-arms can manage 😆and run it in any amount of changing temps (e.g. 15-degs indoors to 35-40 outside in the sunshine!) FWIW: I cycle around 10'000 Km per year. And have ran a lot of tyre brands (Conti, Schwalbe, Vittoria, Michelin, Panaracer, Specialised). In recent years, on my best bike, it's been GP5000 28's (with Latex or TPU tubes, running 73-76 psi @ 82Kg), although I put on 32's on this Winter and I may be sticking with them in future (as they roll REALLY nicely on crappy S.England roads 👍)
At the end of the day, trusting the safety of my bike is worth more than any of the potential marginal gains pointed out in this video. I don’t want to consider all kinds of limitations in order to be safe.
As said in the video, and mentioned in others; there is a clear safety improvement over the hooked design from a manufacturing and quality control standpoint. If someone uses tires from a reputable brand with these rims (within the specified tire pressure range) its clearly the safer option.
@@lucamuller6729 How is it the safer option? To say it’s safe if you followed all the requirements is one thing. I can accept that. To say it’s safer however seems like a stretch. The only thing I could think of would be the supposed sturdier rim. How is it clearly the safer option for the average consumer? You don’t think it’s safer being able to use more or less any tire and any reasonable pressure without the risk of catastrophic failure?
@@mathias8013 From a manufacturing and quality control standpoint hookless is better, because it uses all metal moulds. This leads to a more precise and more even material thickness and therefor better predictable failure modes. The standard is established and some brands might not yet fully understand the importance of following said standards which is inherantly dangerous. Its always better to step back if there is to much uncertainty with a new technology, but as I said its just three steps to take for safe operation ..
I need the option of using a non tubeless tire on my road rims. Sometimes you travel to a race, you need a new tire and non tubeless is all you can find
Bought the 303 Firecrest Set for 1300 euros and am impressed. Coming from mtb I am more acustomed to a more squishy feeling tire so. I ride them with a 42mm tire at 2.3/2.5 bar and the balance they offer is great for me. Its my first road/gravel carbon wheelset and i am impressed with price and performance. The tire compatibility issue exists as long as demand is low, and that will not take long before it ramps up. Good pros and cons list there thanks
more dislikes than likes lol hookless isn't better than hooked. Thankfully none of the brand of rims I like force you to use it. This vid screams Zipp paid us to do it.
came across all the comments, i think the community deserves another videos to dig more about this. After nearly a year, i reckon there are loads of useful information has been called. Alex, the ball is given to you for now.
Interesting. Had a Specialized Pathfinder Pro 38, literally blow off my Zipp 303s rear rim earlier this fall, while riding down a paved bike path on a warm fall day in Central Illinois. A combination that I had been using for 15 months without incident over various terrain and tire pressure. Since it was a road ride, the tire pressure was at 67 psi... so definitely below the maximum recommended limit of 72.5. Inspection of the rim and tire by my LBS came up with zero explanation as to why that happened. The tire had been in use for approximately a month when this happened. Wheel had been trued a few weeks earlier so it's a mystery as to why it happened and when it did. Fortunately it was a rear wheel, and it happened at a reasonably good time. 😓
I've been using Specialized Pathfinder Pro 38 on my Mavic Allroad (hookless) for few years (third tire). Gravel/road descending on a gravel, descending on a road without any issues. I run them on a much lower pressure though (35 - 40 psi).
Max allowed pressure for 38 mm TL tire on hookless rim are 57.2 psi. Unless the tire blows up wider than 38 mm at given pressure on given rim. If it's actually 40 mm wide max pressure is 54.4 psi. Of course you hade a catastrophic failure, you overinflated your tire/rim combination because it's to complicated to understand the limitations. This is just one of the reasons why hookless rims are a really bad idea.
@@and30ers How did you come up with that number? While doing road rides I had been inflating to 65 lbs without issue for well over a year. For true gravel, 42/45 is what the Zipp tire pressure says I should use. Since the blow off I've backed it down to 60 lbs while doing a road ride.
@@JonRoth_MusicSourceProDJ Equal tension = width × pressure. When you increase tire width you need to decrease pressure for the same tension. Using psi as unit for pressure, and mm as unit for width the max allowed value for tension is: 2175 for hookless/tubless, 2610 for hookless/tubed or hooked/tubeless, and 3045 for hooked/tubed. Changing units to bar and mm the value for max allowed tension are 150, 180 and 210. (since 1 bar = 14.5 psi). Simple math. Easy to remember. Works on all types of tires and rims from all manufacturers. Road, gravel, mtb, alu and carbon rims.
Let’s do the maths on weight - Zipp 303 firecrest wheelset, 28mm GP5000 TL and 100g sealant makes 2.142kg. Roval Rapide CL2 with 28mm GP5000 clincher and Tubilotos 2.050kg so comparable hooked clincher is lighter. Hope that stops the weight saving claim.
I think there's another major con. The specific compatibility of the tires and rims varies by manufacturers. Some rims only have a few compatible choices for tires listed on the manufacturer's website. With tubes and clincher tires, you could buy any 700c tire for your 700c rim and not worry about the tire coming off the wheel but now you need to use specific models of tires, which seems like a step backwards. It's up to the user to figure out all these new variables and some just don't know. Is increasing the risk of having a potentially fatal blowout worth 200 grams?
4:50 “extreme pressures” of 75psi. Obviously sponsored/payed content. Mine got blown off at 90psi at 80kg. Luckily at very low speed due to my quick reactions
Hookless is a solution to a problem I don't have. Just like disc brakes were a solution to a problem many riders didn't have, but has now become the standard. Maybe someday hookless will become the standard. But until then, the gains are much too marginal for me to deal with the significant potential for catastrophic failure.
Hookless is eqaully bad and pointless for any MTB application, hookless has zero benefits on any bike. MTB tires burp and blow of hookless rims all the time. It all started with useless hookless aluminium ZTR Stan's NoTubes rims (Crest, Arch, Flow etc.) that doesn't work. They burp tires all the time, and on top of that the rims always cracks at the nipple hole. Compared to hooked DT Swiss alu rims like EX471, EX511, XM481, XM421, XR391 etc all hooked and tires stays on the rim and rims does not crack. Search 2023 Redbull Rampage Kyle Strait crash, he blew his tire of his useless Stan's Flow rim, and completely destroyed the rim in the process. Hookless is bad. Always.
The industry again needs compliant fools to support the current thing. Crazy. A hooked rim with a normal GP5000 and a cheap Ridenow TPU tube, that's all a road bike needs. But not so many companies can participate in the market this way.
This is the way
Where I live(the land of goatheads), a TPU just means you can fit more of them in your saddlebag. Sometimes I don't even get off my block without getting 1-3 goatheads in my tires, often in both wheels. If I have more than 1, I pluck them out and keep riding. If I have 1, I just ride until it breaks and leaves the thorn in my tire that would have definitely peirced any tube.
Even after this video explanations, still don’t see how hookless is better. Seems like the main reason is that it is cheaper to manufacture, so brands & zipp get higher margins. It’s not only a concern on high pressures, but on very low air pressure cyclocross or muddy gravel days (under 20psi) when the tire could burp or detach.
Cheaper to manufacture, same cost to the customer
@@janeblogs324 yet mostly everyone lowered their prices with hookless...
That's why these hookless wheel manufacturers pay presenters, channels, and websites to convince people that "hookless rims are safe". It's all marketing. There is no upside for the consumer and the benefit is only on the manufacturers.
@@ArtanisKizrath Note this is not a paid video. It’s worth acknowledging that this isn’t “the industry” as a whole. You have well respected brands like DT Swiss that aren’t sold on the concept. You also have well educated consumers who actually like the concept. The reality is in between, it’s not nearly as dangerous as some people say, and it’s also not as world changing as others say.
I’ve been riding hookless for the last 4-5 years on the road, and I’ve run compatible tires, incompatible tires, with and without tubes, with approved and non approved rim tape, and I’ve run tire pressure that is technically over the limit, I’ve flown with the wheels forgetting to deflate them, etc. No issues. Much ado about nothing. 🤷🏻♂️
Well you can get ZIPP 303s for £750, or 303 Firecrest for £1400. they do come with a lifetime crash replacement guarantee. I can't see a better value on the market. If you buy from directly from FE at most you get 2 years guarantee.
this video just confirmed stronger not to go with the hookless
I’m 105kg - hookless isn’t for me unless I want to be limited to 30mm tyres which excludes a number of bikes that only have 28mm clearance.
same
Hookless is a cost cutting exercise to maximize profit, plain and simple. Not all cyclists are mindless. No amount of marketing spam like this will change that.
Isnt that the tubeless or disc brake discussion all over again.
@@lucamuller6729 Pretty much.
Although, to be fair, the advantages of hookless are smaller and the risk higher.
There is no reason to have hookless rims in road cycling and no amount of media hyping will ever convince me that hookless is a good thing.
Totally agree this video is a Pirelli advert that is not worth your life. There are several videos showing hookless tyres coming off at less than 73 psi.
Agreed, I'm a fairly big lad 95kg, and cornering doesn't instil confidence at just max 73 psi. Scared of burping already had a crash with normal tubeless with a puncture once air was too low.
It's cheaper
@@neilmurray4231 I'm 90kg and happy descending fast switchbacks at 65psi and less. Started doing that long before I got any hookless wheels
Actually the reasons are stated in the video: increased rider comfort, better cornering grip, better system efficiency, etc. Whether you feel the pros outweigh the cons is a personal decision. For most riders, including myself, the pros of hookless wheels are compelling and the drawbacks either don’t apply to me or are statistically insignificant.
We want to ride tubes too. Sorry industry wants to make wheels cheaper for bigger profit
My brain hurts watching this. Remember when you bought a tire, installed it, pumped it up, and then you rode off into the sunset? I don't want a system that makes me do math in the morning OR ELSE I COULD DIE. Insane.
Hahahahahahaaaaaa! Right on point! Imagine a prerequisite to buying tyres is showing your Advanced Calculus Certificate!
I live in the Alps and I’m not going to risk my life with hookless rims.
Zipp damage control since no one on road is buying hookless.
Alex, blink twice if they are hurting you!
You completely missed the biggest concern. What is the risk of the tyre coming off in the event of a sudden flat or blow out and how to prevent that. This is the key concern for most when it comes to hookless.
There’s no way hookless saves you 200 g
Yea, that math seems way off.
No way 😂
Sadly this video seems riddled with marketing BS. Like how can a rim with the extra thickness of a hook be weaker than a hookless one?
Sure it will. If you buy a $2800 pair of carbon hookless wheels, and compare it to stock aluminum wheels, or a wheel set in the $300-$500 range, you'll save 200g, and another 5-8g with a much lighter wallet.
yea I bought a set of hooked carbon GRX wheels that are 1450grams all in with valves and tape on sale for $1100 I highly doubt a set of hookless gravel wheels out there is under 1250 grams@@christopherharmon9336
TO ALL HOOKLESS MANUFACTURERS: We the people are smarter than you think. You lost. Cut your losses and go back to hooks before you deal with class action lawsuits.
Alex, even taking into consideration who is paying you to publish this, I find your informational video disturbingly lacking of evidence, misguided and even to the point of being potentially high risk. The aerodynamic claims have not been shown. The weight saving of 200g per wheel set for omitting the bead is unproven and I suspect highly exaggerated. The difference in recommended rider weight vs safe pressure between Zipp’s own recommendations and the other unstated manufacturer’s guidelines is highly dubious. The only advantage to hookless is the reduced cost to the manufacturer which isn’t passed on to the consumer. The safety implications of hookless is all that the consumer sees. You and GCN should be feeling highly embarrassed to publish this video.
As English isn't my first language I can't put my thoughts in such concise and eloquent manner, but you Sir, incapsuleted my feelings and thoughts .
Exactly my thoughts as well. GCN has really crossed the line. It's one thing to pay the bills by helping companies market their products in an entertaining way. It's another to promote a terrible and unsafe product. And this feels personal too. I liked Alex but this is too much, he has ruined his personal credibility
This won't make it into comments of the week 😂
Yeah that weight limit difference does not inspire confidence. I'm either well over the limit or well under it. So I should just use the calculator that says it's OK and cross my fingers?
Most of the ”pros” of hookless seemed so contradictory, this was painful to watch. First mentioning ”better aerodymics” and seamlessly transitioning to ”hookless is best for gravel riding” from there. I thought gravel riding was all about wide tires & low pressures which makes aerodynamics completely secondary?
A typical carbon rim at a popular 40-60mm depth usually weighs 400-500 g per rim, so taking 100 g off from the rim’s lip construction is just ludacrous.
That example of ”perfectly usable” tire pressures was also quite dubious. I can’t believe how a strict limit of 73 psi and riding pressure of 67-68 psi for a typical middle weight rider and middle tire size can be included in the same equation, as I know for a fact my pumps have about 5 psi worth of measurement error between them.
Also, TSS = Tubeless Straight Side, not Sight. I hope GCN could discuss these ”developments” with a straighter sight.
GCN Tech: "Think Hookless Is Dangerous?"
Everybody: "No, we KNOW it is VERY dangerous!"
The fact you need to jump through all these hoops and meet a specific set of criteria (for not-super-light people on road tyres) to avoid having your tyres fly off the rim when going downhill seems a pretty hard sell compared to the other tyre setups, for the marginal aero gains and weight saving.
The manufacturers will also make it a lot harder for rider to lodge a claim against them when the tyre rolls or blows off, all they will say is you didn't use the recommended pressure and in order to prove you did use the correct pressure you will need to take a video everytime you pump up your tyres, use a digital tyre gauge for recording, and the manufacturer will just say the gauge wasnt calibrated correctly.
Hookless wheels DO NOT provide an advantage in aerodynamics, it’s been proven in the wind tunnel.
I think he's referring to the width of the rim, hookless can be wider meaning the leading edge of the tire won't have that "light bulb" effect. That's probably such an insignificant advantage, you could make it up on hooked wheels by getting lower on the front end of your bike. So yeah, you're right, it's dubious as hell to suggest that hookless wheels are magically more aero.
It's too make manufacturing easier, nothing else.
@@M3GRSD I’m confused. You just said that the difference would have to be made up with rider position (outside the wheel system), which would mean it has an irrecoverable disadvantage. I will happily admit that rider position is the biggest difference in aerodynamics of the entire bike/rider, but there’s some strange mental gymnastics here.
Please cite your source! That would be interesting to read.
This type of video is just undermining GCN’s credibility, they are not safe compared to hooked and is not worth the risk, you are not doing justice to yourself or to the population!111
Show your evidence that there are not safe. Show your tests and demonstrate
Hi, thanks for taking your time to comment. I'm not sure how you can feel that a video highlighting the pros and cons of a system so that individuals can have more information to make their own decisions is doing myself an injustice. What hookless wheels or tubeless tyres have you tried? Hookless tech isn't going to be for everyone and I'm totally cool with that. Hopefully the industry allows people to continue to have options.
@@bikemirror6620 ua-cam.com/video/BmxylplJJWQ/v-deo.htmlsi=2hXh0GebrweWBnta
@@alexpatonGCN thank for the reply. The Reason, hookles rims have been invented, is that it’s cheaper to manufacture, so they can make more profit, why risk your safety and your life, to save a few grams of weight
they dont have much choice when their sponsosrs force videos like this on them, at least they do give both sides...but if they didnt theyd just lose subscribers
“Our sponsors will try to change your mind” on this potentially dangerous cost cutting exercise.
Couldn’t agree more. I’ve seen real world videos showing it blow off. Even for a small chance of occurrence, I choose hooked for peace of mind of not crashing or having a blow out.
I think zipp made this video because lots of people buy 303s and pump it up to 100psi and then they blame hookless technology when it's a user error.
I totally agree, the shittiest idea ever! I got a set of carbon hookless on my Giant tcr. Got rid of the sealant straight away to tpu tubes! Job done apart from crappy low 73psi pressures! Not good
Hookless tubeless is much better a small number of years in than hooked clinchers were 20 and even 30 yrs in. Working in a shop, I used to have to use 2 layers of cotton tape to get a tire seated. I've also broked beads that were too small. Did both more times than I can count.
In Germany we say “mir geht der Hut hoch”. Meaning that it’s becoming ridiculous. I am a real longtime fan of the channel but this video is complete bs. Not a word of the real dangers when manufacturers miss the tolerance. Everyone riding these at their own risk. And just yesterday the video about pressure which also misses out a lot of factors. And that stupid tyre pressure calculator. Is there any hope for GCN?
Hookless is good for wheel manufacturers and basically useless to negative for consumer's I've seen enough videos of tyre's being spontaneously ejected from the rim to know it's not something i want to risk.
Alex mentioned ETRTO but forgot to mention that for road rims with 25mm internal width they no longer recommend 28mm tires which Alex shows as the “standard” road tire. ETRTO recommends 30mm tires as the smallest tire you should be running safely and honestly for road that’s a little too big and heavy for my taste. I prefer 28mm tires. Definitely a pass on hookless for me.
dont you want to be fast like pogo, he was on 32 in the tdf. comn you alrdy have the lock up brakes that are big and heavy
After thinking 32s would be winter only for me, I stuck with them all summer and definitely prefer it. I'm on 35s when I'm riding worse roads. Don't think I'll ever run 28s on anything but a TT bike ever again
@@veganpotterthevegan ever try 30? Comfort isn't everything unless it keeps you off the bike. But at that point you gotta look at suspension because with the saddle and tires combined can often give more travel than suspensions
@@veganpotterthevegan most ppl have bike fit problems if not chronic pain issues. I ride 25s 90 to 100 psi all types of roads even a little gravel at times never had comfort issues on 100 plus mile rides. And I use a selle Italia slr with no cut out so it's rock hard for some reason, whereas the cut out version flexes 5 mils give or take, to me that's not enough support. Both have design flaws clearly.
@timtaylor9590 I was a sought after bike fitter for over a decade and one of the first 10 certified Retul fitters in the US. I know plenty about fitting. I also have over 300k miles in my legs and didn't know I liked 32mm tires until I road them. Didn't think I'd like 35s until I road those either😅
You get a pumcture. You repair it with a tube and use co2 vartridge to inflate it. How confident are you that its less than 73psi as you clip in and ride on?
Shouldn't be using co2 with tubeless anyway.
@@bikeman123 Depends on the sealant. Some sealants are CO2 compatible.
Yeah.. go hookless for all the advantages only to not be able to choose a tire that's faster, grippier and lighter. Also there's so many "advantages" listed in this video that are either misinformed or that Zipp didn't really take advantage of. Quick couple examples:
- Hookless lighter? I can think of at least 8 brands of wheels of the top off my head that are hooked and lighter.
- Hookless drove carbon wheel prices down? No. Carbon wheel prices were going down long before hookless was even mentioned in road biking. Chinese wheel manufacturers who build equal or far better quality wheels than western brands and charging 1/3 the price. That's what drove prices down.
All wheels can be dangerous. Hookless is way more dangarous than hooked and it's supported by data at this point. How many more high profile crashes do we wanna watch before we admit that?
Sorry but 200g savings is a straight lie. Multiply the dimensions of a hook with the density of carbon and were talking 10-20g.
Seen too many videos of tyres being ripped off hookless rims when put to the test. Yes they were probably set up wrong but in a big market where you are selling to pro’s and pure beginners safety has to come first.
Problem with ROAD hookless is there are very specific pressure limitations that are not explained by manufacturers or people selling the hookless rims. Add this to the generally clueless level of the tire pressure they should be running, the "recommended" pressures on the tires and few using a reliable pressure gauge and you are asking for trouble. All in all it seems for the road it is a solution looking for a problem.
I'm not going hookless. I went from tubeless to normal tires and TPU innertire. Best move ever 💪🏻
💯
ok boomer
@@Pienimusta 🤡
What’s your opinion on the tpu? I’m currently on tubeless and considering making the switch
Hooklless is rubish.
sounds like way too complicated for some un-measurable performance difference. just run the lower pressure on hooked rims. it might work for light riders with full support crews. but for normal people, it's extra complexity for no good reason. and the consequences for getting it wrong mean tire comes off the wheel
A commercial presentation from ZIPP dressed up as a GCN film. It is video content like this that reminds me why I seldom watch GCN anymore.
Conclusion: yes, it is still dangerous
🤣😂
I used to be sold out on hookless when I first used it. After a while I realised what a big expensive mistake I had done. The tire limitations is a pain. Tire compatability is a mine field. Now, I have downgraded my 404 zipps to gravel riding with 42mm tires. I know it looks ridiculous, but I can not sell the wheels as no one would buy it. I paid a lot money for it and I dont want to sell it cheap. So gravel wheels it is!!
After watching this video, I am still not remotely convinced that there is any compelling reason to use hookless rims on any bicycle, much less a road bike. The main advantage seems to be that hookless rims reduce production headaches for wheel manufacturers; for riders, the tiny advantages mentioned here are more than offset by the huge disadvantages. Since I personally prefer to use more-supple clincher tyres with TPU tubes rather than tubeleless, I can't see myself ever switching away from hooked wheels.
What I can't get past is the 'limitations' between the hookless rim and the 'approved' hookless tiers for your particular brand of wheel. At least with a hooked rim (tubeless or otherwise) i can use any tire I want without fear of compatibility and/or liability issues. The problem is; there seems to be a severe lack of industry standard because right now, every player in the market wants to be the "industry standard". MAVIC already solved this problem decades ago. Why can't we all just settle on UST?
That's now, not always true long into the history of hooked rims. Broken beads, and hops in non-seated tires were terribly common for a very long time
ETRTO standards are pretty common now, and it appears most new wheels and tires are being designed to this standard.
The only reason we're being pushed hookless is the same reason we were pushed press fit bottom brackets... it's cheaper for the manufacturer, while they can upcharge us for the "new technology". No doubt it'll go away in a few years, just like press fit bottom brackets.
@zachschmidt7417 Specialized, Trek and Cannondale stopped with the press fit and their prices went up for them and us. Wheels went to hookless and the prices have gone down for them and us.
It's a real shame cycling has never had a Ferrari or ducati of its own. Don't get me wrong it's good that there's a competitive market but when one brand is the gold standard it incentiveises everyone else to copy them and standardise on one plan, one size, one one configuration, etc. If cycling could make it's mind up and stay still for a while like a normal sensible industry some of these prices could finally come down
Don’t believe the 200g claim (some of the lightest wheels are hooked), nor the aerodynamics claim either (based on the 105% rule, there is enough rim width to create the same outer profile either hooked or hookless).
It´s true - grab a scale and visit your lbs
Hunt on their website says its 10-15 grams saving.
Did you change the title of the video? Weren't we "all wrong about hookless"? I mean more than 1.500 dislikes cannot be ignored, can they?
I don’t care what this video has to say, hookless for standard road riding and for any tire below the size of 33mm is not safe.
Hookless. I would'nt touch that with a bargepole. Unless you're willing to risk your life to increase manufacturers' margins. The rim is supposedly more aerodynamic but you can only run them safely with >40mm tyres on gravel if you weigh more than 130lbs 😂
Rubbish, Alex has literally just told you the limit on a 28mm tyre with 73psi is 110kg according to zip calc, that's 240lb 😄
@@jakethesnake1976 trouble is, the optimal tyre pressure for a 110kg rider on a 28mm tyre is much higher than that. You’d smash the rim to bits if you hit a pothole.
I am 100kg cyclist been using them for a while, they are a lot more durable in pot hole just like my mtb hookless rim
It shows on one of the cobble classics when that tyre flew off that pro riders front wheel . Tubless yes .. Hookless rim yes .
If he had a clincher rim that tyre would have held on alot longer
Bike industry got desperate to sell something, alomg came Disc Brakes on road bikes. Just a fad that sucked in everyone. Now its Tubeless tyres, Hooked ,Hookless, and a myriad of tyre pressures. I will stick with tyres and tubes and the good old no guesswork 100psi.
I had Zipp 303s and they used to fill up with with water because the seal between the bead and the rim was so bad. That was with hookless compatible tyres too. Sketchy AF. Never mind the fact the freehub was draggy and poorly sealed and the axle bearings wouldn’t seat properly and wore out in a couple of weeks.
Its not just the 303s. I have the same problem with my 404 firecrest disc.
@@adossantos69751the hub issues or the water? Zipp hubs are notoriously terrible but the beat allowing water in was new to me.
Theres always a little play on zipp hubs. The bearings needs replacing often. In regards to water ingression, I do winter riding, mostly wet and cold. Used the 404s first time in the wet, got home had water inside the rim. I thought it was the sealant but when i started shaking I coukd see water coming out of the spokes. I ran very low psi, about 30 psi, 42mm tires. I also had a bit if sealant on the rim edges. so maybe i was running a bit to low pressure. However, the water inside the rim, baffed me as i didnt cycle over any big paddles. Gonna have to investigate.
@@adossantos69751 got you. I mean my tyres literally filled with water!! Not the rim cavity. When I removed the tyre it had water in it, the sealant was completely diluted!
Oh!! Thats a warranty claim surely.
Have Zipp done extensive testing descending l'Alpe d'Huez at 40 mph on hookless rims and getting a front wheel puncture?
No, you haven't convinced me one bit. The only thing most riders are convinced of is that this is another cynical ploy by manufacturers to cut costs which are not passed on to the customer.
I heard this discussion quite often. But what is the actual difference on a hooked system? If you do not react well, a slight turning of the front wheel, will be catastrophic. In any case you have to hope to be able to brake on your rear to a low enough velocity to not crash in the next corner.
I do not believe, that we will get arround that corner on a flat tire on a hooked rim either. Or did somebody achieve this masterpiece, already?
And there is one advantage in riding hook- and tubeless. There is no way to miss, you are getting a flat 😊
Have you ever done a full descent on a normal clincher with a front flat from top to bottom?😅
I guess you didn't notice everyone lower their prices for their hooked rims. They definitely did that
I hit 56mph descending a local climb. I had no worries about my Zipp303s. That being said, getting a flat at that speed would've been catastrophic regardless of the wheel design.
So, essentially, it's a bit cheaper but only compatible with certain tires and I now have to worry that my pump's gauge may not be accurate enough to keep the pressure within the safe range? I would rather pay a bit more and not have to think twice about pumping my tires. The value proposition sounds even worse than for tubeless.
So hookless makes rims lighter because there is less material, and also stronger because there is more material. I think the marketing is being done by two different teams. I still fail to see any advantage other than it costs less to make them to the manufacturer, and it won’t cut your specialized turbo cotton tires to failure.
Could you please provide detailed information about the number of ZIPP 303 firecrest and 454NSW warranties that have been processed by ZIPP this year? I have personally encountered at least a dozen incidents where my customers experienced tire blowouts with their ZIPP hookless wheels since Jan 2023. While I appreciate most of the content produced by GCN, I believe it would be beneficial if you gathered more statistics from local shops instead of solely relying on your sponsor's promotional strategies.
200g weight savings? I don't believe that. I can only find 10-20g differences between the same models
Yup. If you multiply hook dimensions with carbon density, it ends up in the range you're seeing. An order of magnitude off from 200g.
200g is like a 35mm Butyl inner tube in weight, lol. Yeah right.
Notice how they did not provide single example ? Nor for one case where you have cheaper hookless wheel in comparison :) but lets say it is lighter- then hookles specific tire is going to be heavier because it has to have stronger bead.
Yeah, but if you have 10 - 20 bikes and change to hookless on all of them, then it will add up to 200gms
Woooah! Bike truck is going to feel that :))))@@TikeMyson69
I almost bought a tcr on sale, but the rims were hookless and i wasn't sure about it. Thank you to the comments section here for confirming I made the right choice by passing on it.
Josh from Silca said to not use hookless rims. You don’t need to know any more than that.
Dear GCN Tech, whenever I hear 'hookless' I only think of . . . tubulars!
The thing is whether you think road tubeless is worth it or not you can't deny that it at the very least offers something over standard clinchers and tubes, depending on various factors and personal priorities it may not be enough to make you want to switch or use it on all bikes, all the time but its there. But road hookless offers what over hooked tubeless?
I already have tubeless, I can already run lower pressures, and wider tyres (of which I am not nearly as limited on selection) and I can revert to tubes and standard tyres if I want/need to. You guys have shown multiple times in various videos that decent carbon wheelsets are as tough as nails already and don't need to be "stronger".
What does that leave? Highly dubious at best (outright BS at worst) weight savings, wishy washy aero claims, and the promise things might get cheaper in the future?
And that's BEFORE we get to potential safety issues.
I think everyone has caught on that gcn is a purely advertising org. Of course that’s your right but at the cost of your credibility.
Hookless is fine when used according to specifications.
The problem is that the difference between specification and "tires blowing off" is too small to be a suitable consumer technology.
Hookless is just one class action lawsuit away from being an industry disaster.
@GCNTech I know you have to pay the bills, but I am surprised you want to get involved in what will inevitably become an industry train wreck.
Exactly. Also who guarantees that the manufacturers all meet the exact specifications? As seen in the videos by „Cyclespeed Tours".
sorry but the slight aerodynamic and weight advantages do not make up for the obvious safety downsides. while riding, one must now carry an accurate pressure gauge to not overinflate the tires. can't use a co2 canister anymore because of the overinflation risk. let's also suppose an 80kg rider purchases a hookless rim/tire combo, perhaps during some sales, and then goes online to check the pressures and either finds out different calculators give different values or even finds that the chosen combo is not even approved to work together. this does not feel like progress, except for the 1% who race professionally and have support cars and mechanics at their disposal, not for the average weekend rider
It’s actually a lot safer than hooked rim
Since Zipp looks to have just ended rim brake and hooked rims, perhaps they are using GCN for market research on the fallout before they trash the molds?
Here's the question every rider should ask of hookless rims - what happens if you bombing down a epic or not so epic downhill run be it gravel or boring tarmac and you burp the tyre wall out of the rim from hitting some debris just because you got the tyre pressures even so slightly wrong?
Been using hookless rim tech for a very long time on my other modes of transportation like my motorcycles & cars but I'm always been very fussy with the tyre pressures and the tyre walls a profoundly thicker & stronger at lower pressures then bicycle tyre width or casing thickness will ever be, and yes that is with riding a bicycle at legal open road speeds or above given a right proper downhill run.
Hookless rims on modern bike with modern tech level tubeless hooked rim tyres, no fecking thankyou I'd rather have all my bones & skin keeped in tacked .
Hookless is a hard pass for me. Hooked+Ridenow TPU gives me all I want.
The advantages all seem debatable.
Never ever going hookless. I ride cheap bikes with cheap wheels and weigh 73kg.
I am 100kg got no problem with hookless
@@user-nu5fx6en9h That comment of mine is so old that I weigh less now. I'm glad that hookless works for you.
Hookless rims give me nightmare visions of Michelin Elan tires blowing off rims in the early 80s despite only being pumped to 70 psi. Sorry, not going back.
I predict that hookless will be a real turn off for the majority of riders and a big mistake for those manufacturers pushing it. Minimal gains no one cares about for more expensive tyres, more difficult to get on and off, more things to worry about on the pressure front and your mates constantly telling you your tyres will peel off.. 😂
Won't be long before all tubeless tires are hookless compatible. It'll be a non-issue.
@@veganpottertheveganle sans crochet est un problème en lui-même
@@littlevo9 hopefully you don't ride in cars then🤡
@@veganpotterthevegan je n’ai pas besoin de gonfler mon auto à 6,8 bars
@littlevo9 yeah, but are you 1300kg?🤡
110 Kg at 72psi?! I call shenanigans! I weigh 215 lbs (you made me do the math, so now it's your turn) and if I ride lower than 80psi on my 28mm tires, my back tire looks like I'm running flat.
Heck, I'm 185lbs and going below 80 psi feels way too soft and squirmy for me on my 28mm... being at the utmost limit at 73 doesn't seem like a good idea to me and I'm not fitting a 30mm on my Madone SLR
Yeah I'm 105kg rider, I've tried crocheted tubeless and it was trash for this reason. I imagine hookless would be worse for heavy riders.
Or you can just use hooked rims and not having to worry about having the right pressure or tyres.
I have hooked rims from HED with 65psi pressure limit for 28mm tires.
What I'm saying is: please, please, PLEASE, always check the pressure limits on your wheels and tires and never exceed them, hookless or not, tubeless or not.
Hookless is no fancy "technology" but a standard. It had been just a case that Extralite failed to meet the specs on its hookless rims (too small in diameter) and a Continental GP5000 S TR (hookless compatible) tire can blow off the rim at 72psi. As a component critical to rider's safety, I don't think consumers shall take the risk at this moment.
Hookless is incredibly dangerous….yet another ad on GCN
Same as hooked tbh
GCN have really sold their soul for this one. How many more times will a company name need to be mentioned and flashed on a screen before it is declared an ad. No mention of the confusion of wheel maximums and tyre manufacture minimum pressures. Hookless is not needed and a gimmick which will end up leading to a lawsuit someday.
Worked great for Derek Gee at this year's Paris Roubaix 😂
So far, manufacturers only certify a relatively small number of tires for their hooklees wheelsets. This really limits tire choice and makes the rider dependent on the wheelset maker's choices. For me that makes hookless a nonstarter.
Its funny that GCN Alex is walking at beginning of video, scared to ride hookless maybe???? And i notice there is not one, not one response from GCN as far as i can see about the fact they're flogging a dead horse! Both scenarios speak volumes to me!!!!
I wonder if Zipp had any influence on the creation of this video...
I've actually seen a tubeless tire come off a hookless rim mid ride. That rider fell and 3 other people who were on his wheel crashed with him. He ended up with several broken ribs and a broken collarbone. Now, I don't know whether it was user error on setting up the wheels and tires or not but I can tell you I've ridden for 25 years and I've never seen a clincher with tubes or a hooked tubeless do that. At the end of the day, you can blame of the users who setup tires incorrectly but to me, it seems like they've increased the complexity to save 200 grams but added the very real risk of a catastrophic blowout.
Do you think I want to ride with the person who buys these things from the manufacturer but lacks the technical acumen to set them up properly and they become a ticking time bomb? It can't be this hard and has to be more reliable and intuitive for the average rider. The cons for the average user outweigh the risk IMO. Now, on a pro team with mechanic and a light rider, maybe, but most of your average riders aren't mechanically adept and don't weigh 55kg.
They don't even say where the 200gm derived from! Maybe from a old alloy rims with 36 spokes!
@@mjokffsgfjs lol I run 36 spoke rims, spokes are only 4 grams each. I have a 36 spoke H Plus Son that feels light as hell.
@@___Bebo___ You are missing out on 200gm advantage!
@@mjokffsgfjs They straight up removed a 35mm Butyl tube worth of weight by filling in the safety groove with carbon. It's amazing tech bro.
When you have to argue the most invisible marginal gains vs major things like safety, ease of use, and tire choice, you've already lost. 👎 I've actually ended up NOT looking at TCRs because the stock rims are hookless. I guess I'm looking at older used bikes, and the bike industry continues to slide downhill.
Hookless isn't a technology. It is the lack of a hook. I still don't know "why" they did this. It didn't improve anything. It just made the manufacturing process cheaper for the companies and everything else more complicated for the consumer. Weight savings? He's saying 200 grams per wheelset. That's quite a bit. I say BS. It would be negligible at best. Better aerodynamics? I say BS. The tire should sit against rim the same with or without hooks and would be more dependent on the tires, not the rims. Again, negligible at best. Better comfort? That is all dependent on the size of the tires and tire pressures which can be the same with or without hooks. You can ride really low pressures with hooked wheels too. I call total BS on this one. Hooked tubeless ready clinchers are the best bet to give you the ability to ride both tubes and tubeless, a better variety of tires that are available, and the extra safety measure of a hook to keep your tires secure. I still don't see any advantage for hookless. If anything, it's the other way around.
Shocked to see GCN shilling to sponsors again. Next up: 10 reasons why you need to buy the latest most expensive tech which is only marginally different to what you currently have - reason one: it just feels better!
Issue is you have ETRTO 'standards' there not regulations.
Multiple tyre manufacturers mixed with multiple wheel manufacturers isn't a good mix. In my experience being a bicycle mechanic I've fitted tyres to the same rim one being a pro1 which was far easier to mount than p zero.
There all slightly different meaning if you have a more forgiving tyre to mount onto a rim that's not as tight it can be a disaster waiting to happen.
Personally I'd just stick with the hook.... Yes cars use hookless but car tyres also have a steel bead which won't stretch unlike a bicycle tyre....
Car tyres are also used at a much lower volume of pressure usually around 30psi over a much much wider tyre
Princeton Carbon Works make arguably the fastest carbon wheels in the world
They refuse to go hookless as they don't think it's worth it for various reasons
This might just be the worst GCN video ever.
didnt changed my mind, will never use hookless.
Hookles means, that if you get a big puncture (or cut) in higher speed, you are probably dead, because tire will fall off quite easy = it will damage the frame, rim will get destroyed by rolling on the ground and you end up with your face on the ground as well 😂. But its worth it, manufacturer will make some more money on allready 300% overpriced wheelset. NO THANKS!
The title changed, lol.
So, GCN, it seems the condescending message your sponsors aimed to deliver down our throats didn't quite land as successfully as anticipated, did it?
Hey ZIPP/SRAM (plus GCN)... please read the room and listen to all the hundreds of comments below (in less than 24 hours no less). For Road Cycling the vast majority of people are not interested in Hookless and see no advantages to them!
I'm sorry if you've spent millions changing all of your manufacturing equipment over to Hookless only wheels, but no amount of marketing will convince us that hookless is of any benefit!
I've never ran hookless wheels, but I'm sure, on the balance of probabilities, it's a perfectly good system (better for low pressure MTB/Gravel than road IMHO)... if you are careful to ensure everything stays within the correct standards and tolerances.
But here's the thing... Me and most people, just want to put any tyre, on any wheel, pump it up to any reasonable pressure than our tiny cyclist-arms can manage 😆and run it in any amount of changing temps (e.g. 15-degs indoors to 35-40 outside in the sunshine!)
FWIW: I cycle around 10'000 Km per year. And have ran a lot of tyre brands (Conti, Schwalbe, Vittoria, Michelin, Panaracer, Specialised). In recent years, on my best bike, it's been GP5000 28's (with Latex or TPU tubes, running 73-76 psi @ 82Kg), although I put on 32's on this Winter and I may be sticking with them in future (as they roll REALLY nicely on crappy S.England roads 👍)
At the end of the day, trusting the safety of my bike is worth more than any of the potential marginal gains pointed out in this video. I don’t want to consider all kinds of limitations in order to be safe.
As said in the video, and mentioned in others; there is a clear safety improvement over the hooked design from a manufacturing and quality control standpoint. If someone uses tires from a reputable brand with these rims (within the specified tire pressure range) its clearly the safer option.
@@lucamuller6729 How is it the safer option? To say it’s safe if you followed all the requirements is one thing. I can accept that. To say it’s safer however seems like a stretch. The only thing I could think of would be the supposed sturdier rim. How is it clearly the safer option for the average consumer? You don’t think it’s safer being able to use more or less any tire and any reasonable pressure without the risk of catastrophic failure?
@@mathias8013 From a manufacturing and quality control standpoint hookless is better, because it uses all metal moulds. This leads to a more precise and more even material thickness and therefor better predictable failure modes. The standard is established and some brands might not yet fully understand the importance of following said standards which is inherantly dangerous. Its always better to step back if there is to much uncertainty with a new technology, but as I said its just three steps to take for safe operation ..
Can GCN or anyone offer proof that these weight savings and costs etc are passed on to us?
I need the option of using a non tubeless tire on my road rims. Sometimes you travel to a race, you need a new tire and non tubeless is all you can find
Hookless technology seems like a solution looking for a problem.
Excellent promotional video for zipp and pirelli
Bought the 303 Firecrest Set for 1300 euros and am impressed. Coming from mtb I am more acustomed to a more squishy feeling tire so. I ride them with a 42mm tire at 2.3/2.5 bar and the balance they offer is great for me. Its my first road/gravel carbon wheelset and i am impressed with price and performance. The tire compatibility issue exists as long as demand is low, and that will not take long before it ramps up. Good pros and cons list there thanks
As of 11/20/23
1,138 likes
1,473 dislikes（56%)
Holy Hookless focus group, Batman.
If even one person gets hurt or killed because of this video that is far too many, hookless do a failure rate that is not worth risking.
more dislikes than likes lol hookless isn't better than hooked. Thankfully none of the brand of rims I like force you to use it. This vid screams Zipp paid us to do it.
came across all the comments, i think the community deserves another videos to dig more about this. After nearly a year, i reckon there are loads of useful information has been called. Alex, the ball is given to you for now.
Hookless reduced the prices in recent years? Where?
Just going to get the popcorn out while I read the comments on this one 😂😂
Careful you don't aspirate!
Interesting.
Had a Specialized Pathfinder Pro 38, literally blow off my Zipp 303s rear rim earlier this fall, while riding down a paved bike path on a warm fall day in Central Illinois.
A combination that I had been using for 15 months without incident over various terrain and tire pressure.
Since it was a road ride, the tire pressure was at 67 psi... so definitely below the maximum recommended limit of 72.5.
Inspection of the rim and tire by my LBS came up with zero explanation as to why that happened.
The tire had been in use for approximately a month when this happened.
Wheel had been trued a few weeks earlier so it's a mystery as to why it happened and when it did.
Fortunately it was a rear wheel, and it happened at a reasonably good time. 😓
I've been using Specialized Pathfinder Pro 38 on my Mavic Allroad (hookless) for few years (third tire). Gravel/road descending on a gravel, descending on a road without any issues.
I run them on a much lower pressure though (35 - 40 psi).
Max allowed pressure for 38 mm TL tire on hookless rim are 57.2 psi. Unless the tire blows up wider than 38 mm at given pressure on given rim. If it's actually 40 mm wide max pressure is 54.4 psi. Of course you hade a catastrophic failure, you overinflated your tire/rim combination because it's to complicated to understand the limitations. This is just one of the reasons why hookless rims are a really bad idea.
@@and30ers
How did you come up with that number?
While doing road rides I had been inflating to 65 lbs without issue for well over a year.
For true gravel, 42/45 is what the Zipp tire pressure says I should use.
Since the blow off I've backed it down to 60 lbs while doing a road ride.
@@JonRoth_MusicSourceProDJ Equal tension = width × pressure. When you increase tire width you need to decrease pressure for the same tension. Using psi as unit for pressure, and mm as unit for width the max allowed value for tension is: 2175 for hookless/tubless, 2610 for hookless/tubed or hooked/tubeless, and 3045 for hooked/tubed. Changing units to bar and mm the value for max allowed tension are 150, 180 and 210. (since 1 bar = 14.5 psi). Simple math. Easy to remember. Works on all types of tires and rims from all manufacturers. Road, gravel, mtb, alu and carbon rims.
3:26 I think Alex is great, but this is all lies. Find me a hookless wheelset that’s cheaper than its hooked counterpart.
Let’s do the maths on weight - Zipp 303 firecrest wheelset, 28mm GP5000 TL and 100g sealant makes 2.142kg. Roval Rapide CL2 with 28mm GP5000 clincher and Tubilotos 2.050kg so comparable hooked clincher is lighter. Hope that stops the weight saving claim.
I think there's another major con. The specific compatibility of the tires and rims varies by manufacturers. Some rims only have a few compatible choices for tires listed on the manufacturer's website. With tubes and clincher tires, you could buy any 700c tire for your 700c rim and not worry about the tire coming off the wheel but now you need to use specific models of tires, which seems like a step backwards. It's up to the user to figure out all these new variables and some just don't know.
Is increasing the risk of having a potentially fatal blowout worth 200 grams?
4:50 “extreme pressures” of 75psi. Obviously sponsored/payed content. Mine got blown off at 90psi at 80kg. Luckily at very low speed due to my quick reactions
Hookless is a solution to a problem I don't have. Just like disc brakes were a solution to a problem many riders didn't have, but has now become the standard. Maybe someday hookless will become the standard. But until then, the gains are much too marginal for me to deal with the significant potential for catastrophic failure.
Makes sense on a MTB with 1.6 bars and tire beads so strong that they will still stay on without sidewalls, makes no sense on a road bike.
Hookless is eqaully bad and pointless for any MTB application, hookless has zero benefits on any bike. MTB tires burp and blow of hookless rims all the time. It all started with useless hookless aluminium ZTR Stan's NoTubes rims (Crest, Arch, Flow etc.) that doesn't work. They burp tires all the time, and on top of that the rims always cracks at the nipple hole. Compared to hooked DT Swiss alu rims like EX471, EX511, XM481, XM421, XR391 etc all hooked and tires stays on the rim and rims does not crack. Search 2023 Redbull Rampage Kyle Strait crash, he blew his tire of his useless Stan's Flow rim, and completely destroyed the rim in the process. Hookless is bad. Always.
Hookless for MTB and chunky gravel. Hooked for road. Simple
shit for MTB too.
TSS: Tubeless Straight Side (not Sight) 👍🏻