Radiant Floor Heating Systems on Remodel Homes
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- Опубліковано 8 лип 2020
- Watch all of Steve's new videos here - www.buildshownetwork.com
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Steve Baczek discusses radiant floor heating systems and Warmboard. He explores how to incorporate the systems into projects.
Today Steve will explore the Warmboard product line. Warmboard is a heating panel that includes the tubing channel, bonded to thick aluminum, to create a highly conductive surface that pulls the heat from the tube rapidly and spreads evenly throughout your home.
Warmboard comes in two different categories: Warmboard-R for remodeling and Warmaoard-S for new construction. What's the difference? For starters notice how much thicker the Warmboard-S is. When it comes to remodeling, the priority is getting deep enough to make a space for the hose, but on new construction, you need a space in the subfloor as well.
Warmboard-R's smaller, thinner panel is ideal for installing over existing subfloor or slab, or walls or ceiling.
Steve also points out how the company includes its design services along with its product. He emphasizes the importance of working together and how they break down his floor plans to ensure a continuous loop throughout the home, minimizing leakage risk.
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On the BUID show!
I have installed both in my house as a diy/non-pro and have been very impressed with both the product and the company. The design documents were easy to follow, delivery was smooth, ran into 1 weird issue with my choice of flooring and support helped me through it. Great company in my opinion.
I'm glad the full video was on YT. I get that matt wants people to go to his site. But this is the platform to reach the most people
We added a significant addition to our Cape in 2002 and used Warmboard and Radiantec for the heating. I did the radiant work myself--the contractor did the Warmboard install . Warmboard was so new, the closest dealer was hundreds of miles away in NJ (we live in upstate NY) . I had to rent a truck and go pick it up. We couldn't be happier with both the Warmboard and Radiantec. Highly recommend both! We would do it all over gain as the radiant heating is awesome in our upstate NY winters, and the system has worked flawlessly for all these years.
What did you use for a manifold? We are doing DIY and don’t know whether to go with copper or pen at manifold a d control panel.
@@susanw5940 As ours was an addition, so we only added a two zone system. Raidantec provided three simple manifolds in copper. (A supply, a return, and one for the pumps.) The temp(s) and pressure gauge, and the spirovent were already on the manifolds. I then did the board layout and the rest of the copper connections myself. Wasn't that difficult and has been solid since... I have a pic if you want.
@@johnpetry2541 pics would be great!! And where did you source your manifold if you don’t mind?
Your a natural in front of the camera! Very informative.
Thank you
I would like to go drinking with this guy, on this cold day, in new england, in July. lol
Me too - except I don't drink lol
I (long-time builder) have used and really like Warmboard, with a high degree of qualification, however. And those qualifications should be on the radar of anyone contemplating this product.
Plus: High efficiency of heat dispersion: besides the obvious, this means low water temps for a given heat load, which typically makes ground source/ all electric a much more attainable and attractive heat source (these units do not like high output temps). Low thermal mass gives a rapid response time, which is good in cold air/ bright sun Colorado. Great under hardwood or tile floors (with appropriate fastening bonding methods) because of decent heat propagation to the space. Overall, radiant floor heat is quietest, cleanest and most comfortable/ livable heating there is (for now). Anyone with $ (like my clientele) wants this, even if they are putting in a full duct system for AC (which they are).
Negs: Expensive. Carpeting seriously reduces efficiency and requires higher water temps for a given heat load. New construction can be more labor intensive, as the Warmboard really needs to go down, interior framing installed and or laid out, and then the whole Warmboard surface needs to be covered to prevent damage. There are tricks to running the lines to zone manifolds, pressure testing, then not doing the actual in-floor until just before the finish floors go down (see comment on "expensive"). And, if you are designing for a highly efficient building envelope, the heat load may be so low that water temps are REALLY low. We find that it in our best house to date, with a 9 BTUH/ sq ft design load, the bathroom tile floor NEVER gets warm enough to FEEL warm. Ends up being counterproductive, and a client happiness/satisfaction issue. Done again, we'd put electric radiant in the Master bath.
BIG NEGS: LEAKS. Warmboard and their similarly designed competitors suffer from being THE MOST VULNERABLE to tubing damage and penetration, during construction, while laying finish flooring, and ALSO after the tubing is covered by flooring/ after construction is over. The dirty secret of this industry, that they all try and pretend does exist. Reason for the vulnerablity is that people lose track of where all those many feet of tubing are precisely located. Out of sight, out of mind. The worst thing is that a fastener that penetrates the tubing, including drywall screws, and especially pneumatic finish nails or flooring staples, can self-seal in the tubing (especially Pex-Al-Pex) and even pass an air pressure test. The real problem comes when the fastener rusts out, typically 4-12months later. There is a slow trickle under the flooring, and then the rusted remains of the fastener finally blows out, and the leak gets dramatically worse. By the time the water puddle shows, there is usually a lot of hidden damage/ mold/ etc. As a builder, this has come to be one of my biggest liability concerns, because of the hidden nature and slow revelation of a potential problem.
isn't it easy to just pressurize the line and check for leaks before signing off?
Interesting looking product
Steve is a Rockstar!
Without the band lol - thank you!!!
I wish you would do a show on radiant cooling. If you pass a drain to a outside wall how do you seal the void in the brick?
Look's like a great product specially with no joints in the subflooring
I've installed this, it's a really top notch product but it's something that the client really wants because it adds allot of cost to a heating system. 2000 square foot house is like twenty grand just for the material and then you add 10k for another cooling system. Plus the plumbing and whatever HVAC system you want is another cost
David Love I looked real hard at this product for my new build and couldn’t justify it, especially being in the south.
@@the_proffit76 agreed you would be doubling your HVAC budget. A localized system in specific areas is allot easier on typical budgets than this product. Its also difficult to get framers to install this stuff, you need a carpenter to understand router guides etc.
Radiant heated floors provide the best heat I have ever felt. Mine is electric heated coils inside 3 layers of cement boards with 1" insulating tinfoil board underneath over my hardwood floor. I then covered it with tiles and grout. It is slow to heat up but then it silently, evenly releases gentle heat into my highly insulated house. Built it myself for $1,000.
As I build my small highly insulated cottage up the mountain I want both an electric and fluid heated radiant floor. This way I can use my excess solar PV electricity for heating the floor in the fall and spring and then use the rocket stove to heat fluids to heat the floor in the deep winter.
Check the URL in your caption -- you misspelled "build"!
Says a lot
Not really,says more bout U!
ive heard of warmboards never really used them.how is it compare to advantek subfloors..... i know i never really have to worry about the the advantek subfloor
You don't install an insolation prior the floor heating? Here in Germany we always install an insulation first to don't get heat in the subfloor.
Where was this video when I was remodeling me house! Would have loved radiant floor in my house versus the traditional forced air.
One question I have. What types of floors can you have on Warm Board? Assuming a traditional wood floor would be out of the question?
I have a forced air heat pump and I prefer my electric thermal mass tiled floor slab for heat. It silently provides even and gentle heat as it warms my toes. I made mine for $1,000 with 1" of tinfoil insulating foam on top of my hardwood floor, 3 layers of cement board, electric coils and covered in tiles and grout. I want to another one for the living and library too.
Just posted a long comment. You may care to read through it.
I wonder what the process is like for installing the finished floor above all those soft plastic hoses. I'm guessing no nails allowed. So just some kind of adhesive?
Glued and nailed, already installed looks beautiful;
What are your thoughts on Electric vs. Hydronic Floor Heating? Hydronic seems like a lot of more work with a boiler/tank and pump, potential for leakage etc..
Is it not better to have air gap between pipe and aluminum backing. This way radiant heat is reflected from aluminium and minimises loss of heat to floor via panel by conduction?
1) NO 2) Does not work like that. Heat is conducted by the aluminum skin from the small area of tubing to the entire area of the flooring, more even heating/ heat dispersion into the room = higher efficiency
@@leestevens446 hot goes to cold. So the ground of tubing is being unnecessarily heated. An aluminum layer on the ground, underneath the tubing with an air gap in between will reflect radiant heat up to the floor. Just science.
@@terrkamp You are very mistaken. I suspect you have never done one of these systems. The key to Warmboard's performance is that the heat is conducted from the tubing, and the aluminum layer is so conductive that the entire facing stabilizes at a small delta below the water temperature. It is also essential to have a very small delta temp between supply and return water, so that the entire zone is heated very evenly from one end of each tube to its other end, and the floor itself is then heated very evenly. What you are suggesting is the opposite, concentrating heat radiation and accentuating "hot spotting". With very low delta temps, and insulation below the Warmboard, heat flow is predominantly upwards, assuming a hard finish surface. In that case, the Warmboard is at a relatively low delta temp vs. ambient, so the path of least resistance is into the flooring material. The Warmboard will rise in temperature, but heat flow downward is thwarted, so the result is a stable material temp, with relatively MINOR HEAT LOSS DOWNWARDS. It is for this reason (among others) that carpet (an insulator) seriously degrades the thermal performance of the Warmboard. Heat goes/is conducted from warm tubing into the aluminum sheet, which is an extremely good conductor, so the entire sheet reaches essential the same temp, and then conducts that heat energy (goes from hot to cold, just science) into the flooring material very evenly; the flooring material then becomes a radiant source, directing energy into the room space. Since radiant temperature is about 40% more effective than air temperature as far as human physical comfort, the actual air temp in the space does not have to be as high as for a convector system (eg hot water baseboard) to achieve the same perceived (and real) comfort level.
Two observations:
1) you should watch out for AutoCorrect, as it is garbling your already scientifically irregular comments into a more indecipherable mush.
2) if you are going to pose as an expert, you should have expert knowledge. FWIW, my credentials include a degree from MIT '76, so I am somewhat familiar with science, despite the fact that I grow up with a science teacher for a father.
@@leestevens446 Now now. Sit down and have a cup tea to blow off a bit of steam. Thats some rant.
I take your point about the heat transferring across the aluminium(The Queens English). However, you are ignoring the transfer of heat to the sub floor. Yes wood is an insulator but not 100% resistant or even close. So as the heating is on for long periods it will consistently lose heat to the colder sub floor. Thats just a fact. You can ignore it if you want. Some aluminium on the bacl of the board with an air gap between it and its surface would work. The question is, is it practical or economic to get that extra efficiency?
Still name dropping MIT.....get a life pal.
@@terrkamp Well, you have edited the original post to a readable form, but still not clear what you are proposing, especially in light of the later reply, which seems to be suggesting something different. It would help if you would carefully read my reply above, and the original standalone comment I posted separately. You have given the impression that you want solely to be taken as a wise person, based on the incisive question(s) posed. On the chance that you really do want to know the answer(s), I will make one more stab at this.
Re: First comment
Warmboard works by conduction from tubing to aluminum sheet, which distributes heat evenly across the underside of the finish floor materials. Suspending the tube in an air space, in the groove, away from contact with the aluminum sheet would totally transform the energy transfer, and totally defeat the energy transfer that makes Warmboard so effective. The radiant heat could only be outward from the tiny area of the groove itself, as the bulk of the aluminum would be covered (in contact with, conduction path to) by the finish flooring, that it necessarily fully supports. And never mind the increased bulk of the Warmboard substate, to allow for this gapping, and the attendant cost increase. And, never mind the expense of providing a suspension system for the tubing that itself allows no thermal bridging.
Now, if one amends this line of questioning to "what about a layer of insulation between the aluminum sheet and the plywood substrate below?", well that is a different question. Different, and legitimate. Yes, heat does flow into the plywood, and insulating materials on the finish floor (carpet and pads, even throw rugs) will direct a greater % of the heat energy downward, all other things being equal, and hence reduce the efficiency of radiation into the space above. One could imagine an insulating layer being included in the Warmboard product. Aerogel comes to mind, as highly efficient, and even 1/4" of aerogel would be rather significant. I am shaking my head and suppressing a laugh at even writing this: research aerogel (pricing) and you will understand why. Warmboard is already the priciest heat dispersal medium out there, and has limited sales because of the price point. Then there is the problem of structural support for the aluminum sheet, and the finishes on top: aerogel is very low density, and impacts and heavy point loads could have very adverse results. Warmboard has been around for about 20 years, and if there was a cost-beneficial way to improve heating efficiency, I think they would have figured it out by now.
Re: Reply above
It appears that you are changing the dialogue to a radiant barrier on the back side of the Warmboard plywood. Legitimate question; here goes. If one posits that the plywood substate is being warmed, and passing too much heat downwards, the desire to limit that heat flow should not be ignored. Bonding a layer of aluminum on the back/ bottom of the sheet is a poor "solution", however. First, the Warmboard will be an emitter of radiant energy from the bottom, into an air space below. True, a highly reflective surface will have lower emissivity, but it is more effective to have a radiant barrier on the receptive surface, reflecting the radiant energy back towards the emitter. Another issue is that the Warmboard must be supported in way that creates that air gap. This could be on joists, or sleepers. Either way, there is a conduction path from the bottom of the Warmboard through the (presumably) wood supports and further down to whatever thermal mass is present. An aluminum sheet would act exactly like the upper sheet, only in reverse. Meaning, the heat energy from the entire Warmboard volume would be conducted very nicely to the thermal bridges of the joist or sleeper support. Means the effective conduction path is now only 1 1/8" wood (1/2" +/- at the grooves) over the entire sheet, and then into the supports. Left alone, conduction path from tube locations to joists is on average MUCH longer, much more R-value.
As side note/ background, I and many others have done staple-up radiant tubing directly under the subfloor. Works, but heat distribution is "streaky" and significantly less efficient than Warmboard. The next step is to use aluminum plates that the tubes press-fit into, which are then fastened to the underside of the subfloor. More $, more efficiency, but still not as good as Warmboard, in part because of the longer travel path/ higher thermal resistance through the subfloor material. A side-side note, get a good thermal imaging camera, and scan all of these types of installations as the water temp is raised. Staple-up shows the tubes clearly, diffusers less so, and Warmboard is extremely even temp across the entire floor surface. Finally, gypcrete and concrete slabs get radiant tubing installs, and in these, the thermal mass is very integral to performance: there is a big time lag as the mass is loaded/ unloaded. Having used Warmboard, I embrace the notion of fast response, but also the notion of not using (night) setbacks. The best installs use outdoor reset, and keep water flowing for the biggest % of time, most closely matching heat loss.
Now, the real "answer". Any of these radiant floor systems needs to control and limit heat flow downward, and direct the maximum into the conditioned space. If one is installing in a floor assembly that is itself above conditioned space, this is easily addressed. Any radiant tubing floor needs insulation in the joist cavities below. 3 1/2" FG batts are usually adequate, more is better, but not necessarily cost effective. The delta temps are just too low to waste a lot of $ on this. We typically do sound isolation, so there are sound channels on the bottom of the joists and the cavity blown full of cellulose. Thermal problem taken care of, no extra charge. One good practice is to use foil-faced foam in the joist cavity under, but spaced away from, the radiant tubing (or Warmboard). Radiant barrier, limits convection, all good. 3/4" foam is more than good enough, but should be augmented by batts immediately below. This is especially effective in I-joists, as the foam is cut to fit between webs, and tilted up and in to sit directly under the flanges, which automatically create the air gap. Now, the conduction path is 3/8" wide web, rather than 1 1/2" (or whatever) of the flange , or a solid sawn.
On a retrofit, over a slab, it is absolutely essential to provide some insulation below the Warmboard. We did this by using redwood sleepers, scribed to level the tilted concrete floor, with foil faced polyiso between, sealed with expanding foam to limit air and vapor transmission. This job got 1/2" for a portion, but 3/4" once the floor tilt was big enough, and all with minimum 1/4" air gap. Performed extremely well. EXCEPT: Thespreadhugeallowedtimeunusualdryingtechniquesaid for by my hardwood floorlayer's liability insurance. At this point, I doubt that I would ever again place Warmboard, or equivalent, over a slab, or in any situation where the underside is essentially permanently inaccessible. The risk factor is actually low, but the consequences of an incident are extremely high.
Now, if you feel the need to reply, please leave your anger at home, and bring verifiable content.
Note spelling error on the www.buildshownetwork.com line in the video, (missing the L)
Crap
Build Show Network happens to the best of us :)
Another gra mer cop,go away we muddled thr u!
@@pland99 I was trying to tell matt that he had a small spelling error because when I posted this the video was up only 10 minutes so he could, if he wanted to, replace the video and fix the error easily the longer its up the harder it is to fix, I understood what it said but I was trying to be helpful here. Obviously he wants to link to his website to be correct and I’m trying to be a helpful neighbor here, not some grammar Cop or whatever.
Price please ££££
Dare I ask costs?
there is a cheaper brand
Roughly $10/sqft just for the subfloor panels. Then you need a hydronic system to supply heat, a plumber/HVAC guy to install it, and THEN you need a completely separate system for AC. Warmboard has no place in anything but very expensive builds with the budgets to allow it, and even then you’d be far better off investing that money in a better insulated structure with better windows since Warmboard doesn’t actually save any money on heating bills (insulation does save money). If you have money to burn I’m sure it’s a nice product with great mfr support.
@@superspeeder Just a small price to pay for warm toeseys
@@charleyandsarah most men don't get it. On a 100 degree day, my wife's feet are cold unless she goes outside and stands on hot tile/concrete. 75 degrees and it's sweater time...
I bet the price is exorbitant for this
Good things cost money, which I'm sure you know
Warmboard sells Warmboard for a profit, it's not a charity. This is a Warmboard Commercial.
OK good, hope you enjoyed it