A friend of mine once said that "sometimes the point of innovation is not making something new or something better, but making something that might inspire better things" As you said, the shot might not be the best but it opens the mind and broadens the possibilities of what is possible or not and, specially, what will people do with this new ideas.
I have been experimenting with this method using cut down aeropress filters on my Flair lever machine and it has yielded consistently amazing shots. I do an 11 second preinfusion and by that I mean I give it a couple bar until I see a drip, then back off the pressure for 11 seconds and pull the shot aiming for 1g per second for 34 seconds using 14g in. This method has allowed me to grind finer and use less pressure, usually between 4 and 5 bar. It also makes clean up much easier.
@@mohdhakimraoufmohdkhanafia8182 back off pressure means I stop pushing down on the lever, you probably shouldn't let go of the lever entirely, so yes, very little pressure. I put the filter under the coffee. I tried with a filter above and a filter below, but I don't think it makes any difference.
@@mohdhakimraoufmohdkhanafia8182 No, 14g is about the most you could use in the original basket, I assume the pro baskets can use more. I'm glad I could I help.
Late to the party, but @mexianhalloween answered after nearly 5y so I'll share my experience here too 😅 I'm running the same recipe, but I'm using 16g for the flair pro 2 basket. You can maybe go to 15g, but 14g is to low for me since the basket tapers down a little. For filters I'm using a stencil from an arts and crafts store (or amazon) with ~35mm diameter.
So I've been playing around with this since this video was uploaded and got to thinking: - Using paper filters - pre-infusion plus steep time of 30 seconds to spread the water throughout the grounds; and - barely 4 bars of pressure during the finish When I enumerate the process like that, doesn't it look like we're just using an aeropress?
You wont get an aeropress anywhere near 4 bar, they peak at around 0.8. This means you wont be able to get the grind as fine as this and get that high extraction he was talking about. The process emulates some of the characteristics of an aeropress I guess but it will be far more concentrated.
Matt at the end! Haha.. love it. Yeah absolutely. You’re reasoning for exploring further (value chain waste) should be enough regardless of what we think. Consumers may be the last to know. You make it your job to know. I appreciate it! I think we all do. Hope to hear more about this! Cheers!
Hi James, yes i have been there and tastet several espresso made by Scott Rao. And yes i want to Learn more about that Kind of making espresso. By the way, the Maschine Scott used Was mine.
Yes pleaaase do a video on it! When I read the blog post I was amazed by how counterintuitive it seemed, and by how much it goes against the conventional wisdom (re extraction levels). The more firmly we hold those beliefs, the more fun it will be to prove them wrong! :D This is an exciting frontier, it would be really cool to see someone as knowledgeable as you be part of pushing that frontier out.
Seeing Scott Rao's name reminds me of Scott Rao's V60 video what reminds me of James Hoffmann wanting to do a V60 video as well a while ago. James, how is the V60 video coming along? :D
After over a decade of making hand poured coffee at home I still use an 01 V60. I've owned or extensively used almost every pour over (and a lot of immersion) brewers and I always come back to the V60. So I'm throwing in my request for a James Hoffman V60 video.
@@wayoutwest7 totally agreed. For me V60 is number 1, Aeropress number 2. All the others don't even beat my Aeropress results, let alone the V60. I gave Kalita one year trying hard, and eventually just stopped using it.
At first when Scott Rao talked about this on his Instagram page, I was so shocked & excited because I'm not a professional Batista, I'm just a home barista with simple equipments and i used to do this for another matter and had this feeling that the espresso's quality get much higher! One of my equipments for making coffee on a trip is Bialetti Brikka and it was always on my nerves that i could feel coffee particles in my coffee, either in bialetti's water tank after using and opening it! So i started to cut paper filters with the size and dimension of bialetti coffee basket and used one on top and one on the bottom of it! That would be so interesting if you could break into this and open it for us James, can't wait to hear it from you. You're awesome.
The last 10 years have rightfully given a great focus on the farmers and roasters. The new technology with flow/pressure profile gives the focus back to the barista, and I like it! I am a proud owner of a DE.
Very intrigued. PLEASE dig away. Glad to hear that you have in interest in the Decent Espresso machine and Scott's research. I am very excited to see what's in store. Thanks James!
For about ten years I've been using a filter in my AP that I cut out of a Mont-Bell O.D. Compact Dripper filter, which is a 60 micrometer, food-grade, polyester mesh filter, and have been very happy with it. It allow the oils the paper filters absorb to pass through. I thought it would be interesting to try using this material with the Flair Pro I just bought. I cut out two filters and tried to emulate this method on 15g of cheap dark roast that I had been using to dial things in. The 45g I pulled* had a much better flow and much less bitterness than without the filters. I then did the same on a quality dark roast. This shot had virtually no bitterness, but pronounced tartness akin to drinking citrus. Without the filters it had some bitterness and tartness. Both had about the same body as shots without the filters, so I assume the oils and insolubles were able to pass through. I pulled the lever until drops appeared, than stopped and waited for 30 seconds. I then pulled the shots at about 5-6 bars. The cheap beans took about 50 seconds to pull, and the good beans about 35 seconds. I used the same grind setting for both. It was really interesting to see how different the shots tasted due only to the addition of the filters. I'm looking forward to playing with this more, especially trying a finer grind with lower pressure. *Since I'm trying to emulate Scott Rao's high extraction method, I figured I use his 3:1 ratio from the 2:1 ratio post on his site.
This is amazing - I've actually been doing something very similar with my old Dualit machine. For the last couple of weeks I've been using empty round tea bags as the filter in the bottom of the portafilter - they don't cost anything after all, and fit and do the same job. It stops finer grounds clogging the portafilter, and more importantly a much better extraction - consistently good. I might try one on top too, to see the effect, but I'm very happy using this method. I also pre-infuse.
Nice vid Mr Hoffman I also had the chance to try it at WoC. I'm unsure of the numbers from the shot I had was, scott estimated 25% ish. My espresso was light, delicate and balanced. No dryness, finish was good. Im super excited to see where this is headed. Im surprised that its taken us so long to realise that this is possible. The brewing control chart where most of our beliefs around extractions come from was created mid last century, in a time where specialty coffee and precision roasting, brewing, etc did not exist. It seems logical to now to think that its possible to push past that.
It was nice seeing Scott on your channel! I used to go to his cafe in Amherst every day when I was in college. I had coffee there that was unlike anything else I've had anywhere, thick and oily but smooth and mellow, never bitter.. And this was drip brewed into an urn.
Thanks! This is very interesting indeed! I've tried various versions of espresso out of my home machine over the years. Low pressure, long duration shots have always intrigued me and I've had mixed results for sure. The small 'fortune' worth of high tech gadgets we see Scott using as he experiments is likely close to the amount of $ I have spent on coffee beans! Espresso is an endlessly interesting hobby!
This was one of the things I was most keen to see at the WoC, so I stopped by the booth early on the first day of the show... Perhaps I should have stopped by later when they'd dialed in a bit more. I had one of the shots that was pulled at a higher pressure, and it definitely wasn't great. It tasted traditionally "overextracted", although there were some interesting flavours in there as well. It sort of reminded me of a good botanical gin in that there were interesting florals that felt inextricably intertwined with astringency. Also, the texture on mine was more syrupy/like high pulp orange juice... The difference in textures is likely attributable to the higher pressures I suppose? Overall, very interesting. I will say that the two paper filter method may be more interesting to me than the super high extractions. I've played around with it quite a bit, and gotten some truly delicious espressos (particularly with Kenyan coffees) at around 24.5 percent extraction.
Instead of paper filters I would like to experience the result when using stainless steel filters with different mesh sizes. I found when using the aeropress that I could get better results (my opinion) when using a 100 mesh stainless filter instead of paper, as there were more fats and flavor. The screen can be cut easily and doesn't come apart, so there is no need for an outside rim like is seen on some stainless filters. eBay is a wonderful source for screens of various sizes that can be cut to size. Maybe I will try this in my Flair when making espresso?
Hi US. I'm waiting on a new machine so unable to try atm. Did you pursue this & experiment? One of the things I will give a go is putting filter paper on top of the puck and leaving the bottom alone. Increasing the temp a tad to compensate.
Agreed. I don't like the waste of adding a paper filter to every shot. Also, I prefer the texture of a metal filter vs paper filter that removes body and oils.
James, I really enjoy your channel. Here are a couple of things that I feel you put a lot of work into and should be proud of 1. Video Production Audio, Camera Quality, Audio, Editing 2. You present your ideas and really excel at genuinely provoking thought and call for discussion.
James , YES by all means keep posting as you find out new things !! Love this topic! Coffee has kind of leveled off for a long time. ( not bad ) but may take some time to explore new frontiers ! Thanks 👍☕️
I’d love to see your take on the whole process start to finish! It’s always interesting for me to see the boundaries of what we know being pushed. Did Scott not have the astringency before that day/ do you think it’s possible to get rid of those kind of defects in a shot with that high extraction?
The EG1 was producing a ton of fines (confirmed by a particle-size distribution machine nearby at WOC) and it was challenging to avoid astringency above 25%. I pulled a few shots much higher without astringency, which I'm guessing benefitted from a lucky combination of good puck prep + unusually little clumping compared to that of other shots I pulled at WOC
I was at the World of Coffee in Berlin and had great fun! Did see you there and contemplated saying hi, but didnt wanna bother you :D Anyway, thank you for very well put together videos and channel, your videos are always very nice to watch after a long day. :)) I'd definitely be interested in hearing more about this high extraction espresso!
Yes James I’d like to see more on this. In fact, more on low waste/environmental impact and cost saving in coffee in general, for businesses and for making coffee at home.
I did try it. I think interesting is the right word. It was enjoyable and I'd love some more in depth opinions on it. At the decent stand I even used my own beans on the stand but obviously couldn't touch the grind setting. It worked surprisingly well but the shot tasted under extracted (which is surprising considering the how fine it was ground and the blooming method used).
Im just happy to see at the back the exact v60 that i also have. I always thought world barista champions never use such, that it was too mediocre for them. Now i have a new respect for my v60. Thank you.
Please do a detailed video about the process. I'm quite interested. UPDATE: I just tried it out....and I think I'm gonna keep making espresso this way from now on. It definitely does everything Scott said it would (i.e. prevent channeling and clogging the basket mesh). In addition, it keeps my showerscreen clean. The flavor definitely changes though so that's something for everyone to keep in mind.
What about using only a paper filter on top? It would help with the channeling but allow the oil to flow (and the clogging). I don't own an espresso machine yet, I don't know which one to buy. Waiting for James to review more of them. Which one did you use?
@@mistersquigee5119 True, but one cause of extraction inconsistencies is grinds basically clogging random parts of the filter. Worse still, they could clog the whole basket entirely and you just end up with a pressurized bomb. It's a pretty annoying issue when I get a batch that requires a very fine grind to get good extraction but too fine that it clogs the basket. Updosing ends up being the usual workaround but I honestly don't like it because the flavors become too overwhelming for me.
I love your intelligent picking apart of and breaking down products and processes, both mechanically/physically and philosophically. I thought this was super interesting, and I don't have any experience making espresso myself nor am I in the business. Its interesting from an entertainment perspective but also because the ideas are applicable to other walks of life. Please pursue this if you want to!
Oh, PLEASE -- I'm dying for more. This was already one of the better bits i've seen on the paper+espresso thing. This paper filter thing is curious, but a lot doesn't make sense to me, yet. Or, I suppose, there's a lot of theorizing about what the paper does, but I want someone to prove it. I want to see more individual tests between top/bottom etc and how they compare to various other variables. Thanks, as always!
Given that one can make any coffee astringent with the right (wrong) extraction, I think approaching roast profiles with the goal of minimizing astringency wouldn't be a very fruitful /interesting endeavor. Instead, approach profiles with the intention of highlighting certain tasting notes/flavors (taking advantage of increased clarity and intensity at these high% extractions) or trying to maintain sweetness and clarity while cutting down on acidity (longer drying and mallard phases?) since these high extraction shots tend to intense, borderline unpleasant acidity from what I understand
Hi James! It was really nice to finally meet you. Try it on the Moka pot, I was getting a lot of good stuff. I started on the experiment as most of the clients I had buying roasted coffee couldn’t afford an espresso machine. I wanted to give them a chance to drink something as close to it as possible by using something that so many households would have. Eitherways, thanks again for the great content! P.S. God damn your tall! You look so tinny in the championship video!
In the same idea of the bottom filter, I am normally at a 17 on my grinder for espresso and 35 for V60. I will take my grinder to a 25, start grinding, and then move it pretty quickly down to the 17 mark. I think this has proven as a positive step.
PLEASE talk more about the analytical data behind espresso. I'm a chemical engineering major who loves spro and loves to hear the nerdiness behind espresso.
Hi James, I would love to see you dig in and play with this new approach to brewing. I have always appreciated your videos because they are straightforward and informative (obviously your production is also really nice). I trust your methods and taste and would feel quite comfortable having you pioneer an espresso revolution.
I would have loved to try that espresso in Berlin! I‘d really be interested in your experiences, tinkering some more with it yourself. The concept and the points you mentioned are absolutely valid. Looking forward to an eventual video!
Here is my interesting experiment story - I have a cheap espresso machine and I don't create crema and have extract bad and unpleasant espresso. It was so bitter and I tried ground coffee bean fine setting with a hard temper but, even though the taste and crema were slightly improved, however, it disappears quickly. A month ago I watched "Higher Extraction with Aeropress Filter" by The Real Sprometheus UA-cam channel and I started an experiment variety that I could achieve longer crema and taste. So in my case, I found that using a coffee filter under the portafilter with finer ground coffee and hard temping would not only create "long enough" crema and itself improved a lot. Now I am happy to drink espresso a lot than several months ago.
Thanks for the balanced thoughts. Regarding savings in coffee, this is probably easier & quicker to implement by using smaller doses. Extracting as much as possible from what is available (not necessarily absolute soluble mass in the bean), more achievable from making longer (but weaker) shots.
I was at the WOC event, but the Decent booth was so clogged that I gave up after getting buffeted around by the crowd a bit and went to watch all the championship events. I have such a love-hate relationship with just how I perceive Scott Rao the man, but damnit, he's a really fascinating individual who does really worthy and fascinating things, and I'm glad we have minds like him and you in the industry to share these ideas. I'm really interested in this concept and I'd love to play around with this myself on the Dalla Corte Mina we have at work.
Definitely interested. Of course. Anyone into coffee should be interested. Not even only on this particular method that we saw in this video, I think there is a huge room for exploration in all those crazy new things that are emerging. And not only espresso wise. And please, reconsider this rule you have where you have to buy stuff to review/experiment. As soon as you review multiple different products, from multiple different brands, as soon as you keep your honesty in the analysis and in the careful words you use, there is no issue. Really no issue at all. It is only a limiting factor for you to explore, which feels a bit sad for this channel.
I'd love to see more on this and furthermore, whether it's something for the home barista or if it has potential commercial application. Personally, I cant see people in a coffee shopping using 2 paper filters, increasing the prep time and essentially doubling the brew time to make a shot that isn't 'great'. I think if we're saying it increases extraction to 28% then what we're really looking at is using significantly less coffee in the basket to hit our normal % and therefore it makes it about being a cost effective method of espresso brewing rather than it being about a great tasting high extraction shot. Add some reusable filters to the mix and then maybe it becomes feasible in a business environment..That's just my thoughts though, we'd all love to hear more of yours 🙂
This was the first time I saw anything about this. I noticed the dual paper filters and immediately started thinking. But then I saw the machine and realized you could write pressure profiles. My mind kinda tilted at that moment (and thank you that your "Further reading" showed me what machine that is) From what I see, I agree with you that these possibilities need to be further explored. I believe we can see more different flavour profiles from different coffees.
Fully agree with you James. Eventough a new method might not result in the tastiest shot ever, it might bring us closer to increased consistency in creating better shots. In other words: I'd love to see you exploring this technique. Taking it further: I'd love to contribute! (KvdW Speedster, EK43, proper water-treatment)
I have Caravel Arrarex-manual lever machine. I’ve experimented quite a bit with distributing grind into portafilter, then “pre-wetting” the puck, by adding water and mixing the grounds to get the puck wet, letting the slurry bloom, THEN if I remember right, tamping a bit, locking the portafilter and pulling the shot. I get a “hybrid” between espresso and pour over which is extremely interesting-as this allowed me to grind extremely finely. I could get sweet, floral shots from single origin light roasts. I had thought of using filters but hadn’t got around to it. The problem was, no control of the temperature. But I’m convinced that this concept: finer grind, longer pre-infusion and “bloom” is the way to go. If the shot isn’t sweet, it’s a deal breaker for me. This makes it sweet. So many shops try to sell sour espresso and make excuses.
Hi James, would love to see your experimentation with paper filters, your approach is always thoughtful and insightful. also, thank you so much for your suggestions on a previous video, decreasing the amount of coffee and slightly altering the grind made a world of difference in my shots at home.
@@hamburger-fries no, it does not take any fun away, instead promotes learning and good use of languages. Also, people are usually thankful for being corrected and welcome comments if done kind way and polite and with good intentions.
Spoke to you briefly at WoC by the brew & espresso bars and I was lucky to take some time out to taste Scott's shots over 2 days. I think the development has been great for this test in the short time it's been happening. The shots themselves were interesting profiles, I found them not overly sweet, and a milky/creamy body. Excited see how this gs continue to develop & would love to hear more in-depth thoughts from you!
Heck ya you should dig deeper! I feel that there is just so much more undiscovered potential in coffee and the more knowledgeable people dig into it and share it with the community the faster we can all draw our conclusions out of it. So, please! Dig deeper!
I experimented with this technique using Cafelat Robot. Except I only use the filter on top, not the bottom. It allows two things to happen: 1) The filter seal the shower screen and it stop water from wetting the coffee grounds before I pull the shot; 2) It allows me to pull longer shot without changing grind size. For example, I can pull a full minute shot of 1:2 ratio with 20 grams of coffee. I'm not going to use the filter all the time, but it certainly gives me more options in a manual espresso maker that's usually only available in a machine.
4 years later, the concept has proven to be right, extraction on espresso has been push up a lot by both hardware and software. We have grinders produce fast flow espresso, basket allow very fine grind, profile that based on blooming espresso yet more forgiving. You can easy to achieve 23-25% extraction nowadays, 27% has becaome the new limit .
Hi James, thanks for the video and sharing ur thought about Scotts interesting experimentation. You talking about espresso in that context and I think Scott left the espresso area here. Imo, this is something else. Step by step: 1. The bottom paperfilter holdingback fines dramatically. Preventing fines "clusters" to block wholes in the basket. Filtering out far (!) more than knwon and exepcted for espresso. 2. The paper on top is building a barrier for the water. This will build up kind of a little bit of a water column as known from levermachines and aeropress. Enforcing avoid channeling. Thi I think can be good and maybe lead to think about screens design? 3. Profile with long bloom known from last decades experiments, not particulary new. 4. Low pressure of 2 bars is not compatible with the espresso world whatsoverer - and here, imo, Scott is crossing the border: we are talking about something else than espresso but not about espresso (even if u grind superfine). 2 bars no not no crema - logical. Appreciate crema is not liked by some but espresso IS with crema - no matter if u like it or not. Also assume not all expected ingredients to be extracted here with that a low pressure. Guess there definitely lots of extracted stuff will be missing. So, to sum up: A drink was made with two bars pressure pushed through a substance consisting out of super fine ground coffee and was massively filtered after and than which - finally - did not taste like espresso. I think a new coffee based drink has been created here that should be named differently. As u mentioned it's "a new way of brewing". Tbh, I'm not big fan of pushing extractions to limits to save money if we are leaving the espresso path and create something new instead which we should treat differently and not as espresso. I apologize, but I think this is the wrong journey...sorry... :(
Unbelievable! I thought Scott had retired from the coffee industry a while back when he sold his coffee shop in Amherst to Jeff, his cafe business partner. Rao's coffee helped me through highschool and university. I went back to Amherst last week after being away for 20 years, sadly there's no more Rao's Cafe, but fortunately there's still a roastery, and I picked up 3 five-pound bags of freshly roasted Rao's coffee!
Definitely always good to see some new approaches. I’d love for you to get more into why this brewing method creates the flavour profile it does. So how the ratios of the compounds extracted change, and their individual impact on flavour. That would give people a baseline to explore for themselves and to adapt their brewing profiles to the coffee they are using.
Well, I've been there, tasted few coffees. First of all - there were different beans with different results, and all technique nuances, workflow was not something, that usual barista is using in daily routine. I'd say that Wendelboe's Kenyan coffee roasted to filter was spectacular, awesome, really out of usual range of flavour. I think, people who came there and tasted it with me they just didn't understood that from start. You really need to go through few shots to see that. This was an extraordinary experience, just not consistent, everybody tasted different coffees on different settings and recipes. Best shots were out of this world, most of others were somehow astrigent or dry. And I think this expirience should change understanding of baristas about bad taste in their espressos. At least people should change sense of the word "overextraction".
Fascinating stuff. I was wondering how this may become a more "mass market" proposition; especially the paper filter top and bottom to the puck, and then realized that it kinda already exists in the ESE "pads"...
Please dig deeper James! I went to WOC just for this new toy/tool too! Maybe you could discuss whether or not you could see eg the decent machine in a really busy coffee shop setup, or do you rather see it in a roastery for the roasters or coffee buyers or training lab or home coffee enthusiasts etc! Great video as always! Thanks for speaking coffee!
The thinness you experienced sounds like what I experience with aero press that uses filter papers. What Scott needs is a non-absorbent bottom element that avoids the clogging of holes but doesn't absorb so much of the good stuff we associate with good espresso. Aero press leaves me flat though it tastes good.
A friend of mine once said that "sometimes the point of innovation is not making something new or something better, but making something that might inspire better things"
As you said, the shot might not be the best but it opens the mind and broadens the possibilities of what is possible or not and, specially, what will people do with this new ideas.
indeed miyagawa san..
I have been experimenting with this method using cut down aeropress filters on my Flair lever machine and it has yielded consistently amazing shots. I do an 11 second preinfusion and by that I mean I give it a couple bar until I see a drip, then back off the pressure for 11 seconds and pull the shot aiming for 1g per second for 34 seconds using 14g in. This method has allowed me to grind finer and use less pressure, usually between 4 and 5 bar. It also makes clean up much easier.
back of the pressure means, u release the lever ? or just kinda stay at low bar pressure? the filter is under the shower screen i presume?
@@mohdhakimraoufmohdkhanafia8182 back off pressure means I stop pushing down on the lever, you probably shouldn't let go of the lever entirely, so yes, very little pressure. I put the filter under the coffee. I tried with a filter above and a filter below, but I don't think it makes any difference.
@@mexicanhalloween 14 , i assume ur not using the pro filter basket tho?? thnks alot for te info man really prciate it
@@mohdhakimraoufmohdkhanafia8182 No, 14g is about the most you could use in the original basket, I assume the pro baskets can use more. I'm glad I could I help.
Late to the party, but @mexianhalloween answered after nearly 5y so I'll share my experience here too 😅
I'm running the same recipe, but I'm using 16g for the flair pro 2 basket. You can maybe go to 15g, but 14g is to low for me since the basket tapers down a little. For filters I'm using a stencil from an arts and crafts store (or amazon) with ~35mm diameter.
the more experimental stuff you do the better! I love watching you push the boundries of the coffee industry when no one else does.
A development definitely worth exploring in greater depth, thanks James.
Yes please!
Can I second that? I’m keen to know about the puck-protection aspect.
I might be late to the party but I'd like to "3rd" that. Maybe a little more practical, hands on trial using sth like a Europiccola 🙂
James Hoffmann is the David Attenborough of coffee. I said it first.
Please dig deeper James into this method . Tks
Can't wait for "Do Gorillas like Chamberlain coffee?"
"Baboons on humid cold brew shots"
Baristas in the Mist? And there we have it.
Yes!
So I've been playing around with this since this video was uploaded and got to thinking:
- Using paper filters
- pre-infusion plus steep time of 30 seconds to spread the water throughout the grounds; and
- barely 4 bars of pressure during the finish
When I enumerate the process like that, doesn't it look like we're just using an aeropress?
Same thoughts
You wont get an aeropress anywhere near 4 bar, they peak at around 0.8. This means you wont be able to get the grind as fine as this and get that high extraction he was talking about. The process emulates some of the characteristics of an aeropress I guess but it will be far more concentrated.
One can achieve a higher pressure by standing on the aeropress
they said 2 bars during extraction
@Rafael E. i could drive my car over the aeropress
Please dig deeper ! like you said its new thing to explore
Matt at the end! Haha.. love it. Yeah absolutely. You’re reasoning for exploring further (value chain waste) should be enough regardless of what we think. Consumers may be the last to know. You make it your job to know. I appreciate it! I think we all do. Hope to hear more about this! Cheers!
Hi James, yes i have been there and tastet several espresso made by Scott Rao.
And yes i want to Learn more about that Kind of making espresso.
By the way, the Maschine Scott used Was mine.
Yes pleaaase do a video on it!
When I read the blog post I was amazed by how counterintuitive it seemed, and by how much it goes against the conventional wisdom (re extraction levels). The more firmly we hold those beliefs, the more fun it will be to prove them wrong! :D
This is an exciting frontier, it would be really cool to see someone as knowledgeable as you be part of pushing that frontier out.
Never saw so many uniformly sensible comments on UA-cam (on any topic). Says something about Hoffmann's excellence
Exploring the older vids just so I can listen and relax to James' voice for a little while... 💆🏻♀️ ❤
Scott Rao is a Awesome dude , he personally answered alot of my roasting questions online when I was starting .
Absolutely pleeease do that video!!
Thanks so much Mr. Hoffman!
Your the new 'Hoff' of Coffee👍
Seeing Scott Rao's name reminds me of Scott Rao's V60 video what reminds me of James Hoffmann wanting to do a V60 video as well a while ago. James, how is the V60 video coming along? :D
speaking of which... a kalita wave video would also be excellent
After over a decade of making hand poured coffee at home I still use an 01 V60. I've owned or extensively used almost every pour over (and a lot of immersion) brewers and I always come back to the V60. So I'm throwing in my request for a James Hoffman V60 video.
Does James have a different technique than Scott?
@@wayoutwest7 totally agreed. For me V60 is number 1, Aeropress number 2. All the others don't even beat my Aeropress results, let alone the V60. I gave Kalita one year trying hard, and eventually just stopped using it.
@@mikecantreed Maybe. I'd also like to hear his thoughts on different methods that are out there.
At first when Scott Rao talked about this on his Instagram page, I was so shocked & excited because I'm not a professional Batista, I'm just a home barista with simple equipments and i used to do this for another matter and had this feeling that the espresso's quality get much higher! One of my equipments for making coffee on a trip is Bialetti Brikka and it was always on my nerves that i could feel coffee particles in my coffee, either in bialetti's water tank after using and opening it!
So i started to cut paper filters with the size and dimension of bialetti coffee basket and used one on top and one on the bottom of it!
That would be so interesting if you could break into this and open it for us James, can't wait to hear it from you. You're awesome.
I just pulled two shots on my la pavoni pro using these informations and it positively changed my control of taste and extraction rate entirely!!
The last 10 years have rightfully given a great focus on the farmers and roasters. The new technology with flow/pressure profile gives the focus back to the barista, and I like it! I am a proud owner of a DE.
Very intrigued. PLEASE dig away. Glad to hear that you have in interest in the Decent Espresso machine and Scott's research. I am very excited to see what's in store. Thanks James!
Dig deep, interesting perspective around a new product as always. I really enjoy your videos.
For about ten years I've been using a filter in my AP that I cut out of a Mont-Bell O.D. Compact Dripper filter, which is a 60 micrometer, food-grade, polyester mesh filter, and have been very happy with it. It allow the oils the paper filters absorb to pass through.
I thought it would be interesting to try using this material with the Flair Pro I just bought.
I cut out two filters and tried to emulate this method on 15g of cheap dark roast that I had been using to dial things in. The 45g I pulled* had a much better flow and much less bitterness than without the filters. I then did the same on a quality dark roast. This shot had virtually no bitterness, but pronounced tartness akin to drinking citrus. Without the filters it had some bitterness and tartness. Both had about the same body as shots without the filters, so I assume the oils and insolubles were able to pass through.
I pulled the lever until drops appeared, than stopped and waited for 30 seconds. I then pulled the shots at about 5-6 bars. The cheap beans took about 50 seconds to pull, and the good beans about 35 seconds. I used the same grind setting for both.
It was really interesting to see how different the shots tasted due only to the addition of the filters. I'm looking forward to playing with this more, especially trying a finer grind with lower pressure.
*Since I'm trying to emulate Scott Rao's high extraction method, I figured I use his 3:1 ratio from the 2:1 ratio post on his site.
This is amazing - I've actually been doing something very similar with my old Dualit machine. For the last couple of weeks I've been using empty round tea bags as the filter in the bottom of the portafilter - they don't cost anything after all, and fit and do the same job. It stops finer grounds clogging the portafilter, and more importantly a much better extraction - consistently good. I might try one on top too, to see the effect, but I'm very happy using this method. I also pre-infuse.
Nice vid Mr Hoffman
I also had the chance to try it at WoC. I'm unsure of the numbers from the shot I had was, scott estimated 25% ish. My espresso was light, delicate and balanced. No dryness, finish was good.
Im super excited to see where this is headed. Im surprised that its taken us so long to realise that this is possible. The brewing control chart where most of our beliefs around extractions come from was created mid last century, in a time where specialty coffee and precision roasting, brewing, etc did not exist. It seems logical to now to think that its possible to push past that.
Thank you for sharing this topic James.. it's so interesting!
nonton juga dok 👍
James is turning me into a coffee geek and I shall forever be grateful for that.
Tough to see my three coffee crushes on the same video, my heart just got 27% extracted.
Only person missing is Chris Baca
@@theraymondo I agree! Then I'll happily die
theraymondo No I need Sprometheus 😛
I spot Scott Rao and James Hoffman. Who's the third person?
Spell Binder Matt Perger, right at the end
Yes please! I need more of these. It is my first time hearing and seeing someone use paper filter for an espresso it is really intriguing. 🙏🏻😊
Patricia Agreed! Very interesting 🤔 would love @James Hoffmann to explore this new avenue of espresso making!
It was nice seeing Scott on your channel! I used to go to his cafe in Amherst every day when I was in college. I had coffee there that was unlike anything else I've had anywhere, thick and oily but smooth and mellow, never bitter.. And this was drip brewed into an urn.
Thanks! This is very interesting indeed! I've tried various versions of espresso out of my home machine over the years. Low pressure, long duration shots have always intrigued me and I've had mixed results for sure. The small 'fortune' worth of high tech gadgets we see Scott using as he experiments is likely close to the amount of $ I have spent on coffee beans! Espresso is an endlessly interesting hobby!
Thank you for sharing your perspective on Rao's new approach to extraction! It is all super interesting to me, and I'd love to hear more on this!
This was one of the things I was most keen to see at the WoC, so I stopped by the booth early on the first day of the show... Perhaps I should have stopped by later when they'd dialed in a bit more. I had one of the shots that was pulled at a higher pressure, and it definitely wasn't great. It tasted traditionally "overextracted", although there were some interesting flavours in there as well. It sort of reminded me of a good botanical gin in that there were interesting florals that felt inextricably intertwined with astringency. Also, the texture on mine was more syrupy/like high pulp orange juice... The difference in textures is likely attributable to the higher pressures I suppose? Overall, very interesting.
I will say that the two paper filter method may be more interesting to me than the super high extractions. I've played around with it quite a bit, and gotten some truly delicious espressos (particularly with Kenyan coffees) at around 24.5 percent extraction.
James I have to say your music selection is amazing. Your content is so well produced!
Instead of paper filters I would like to experience the result when using stainless steel filters with different mesh sizes. I found when using the aeropress that I could get better results (my opinion) when using a 100 mesh stainless filter instead of paper, as there were more fats and flavor. The screen can be cut easily and doesn't come apart, so there is no need for an outside rim like is seen on some stainless filters. eBay is a wonderful source for screens of various sizes that can be cut to size. Maybe I will try this in my Flair when making espresso?
Hi US. I'm waiting on a new machine so unable to try atm. Did you pursue this & experiment? One of the things I will give a go is putting filter paper on top of the puck and leaving the bottom alone. Increasing the temp a tad to compensate.
Agreed. I don't like the waste of adding a paper filter to every shot. Also, I prefer the texture of a metal filter vs paper filter that removes body and oils.
James,
I really enjoy your channel. Here are a couple of things that I feel you put a lot of work into and should be proud of
1. Video Production Audio, Camera Quality, Audio, Editing
2. You present your ideas and really excel at genuinely provoking thought and call for discussion.
@@jameshoffmann But... your hair is too meticulously groomed! I can't trust you fully... lul
James , YES by all means keep posting as you find out new things !! Love this topic! Coffee has kind of leveled off for a long time. ( not bad ) but may take some time to explore new frontiers ! Thanks 👍☕️
Don’t know how I missed this video. Very interesting indeed. And definitely an avenue worthy of investigation and a video please.
Please keep uploading at peak coffee. Perfect timing.
Yeeees a new video, thanks James 😁
Now anything that allows me even more caffeine at no extra cost always gets my attention. Now I'm going back to watch it again. Great post, cheers
I’d love to see your take on the whole process start to finish! It’s always interesting for me to see the boundaries of what we know being pushed. Did Scott not have the astringency before that day/ do you think it’s possible to get rid of those kind of defects in a shot with that high extraction?
The EG1 was producing a ton of fines (confirmed by a particle-size distribution machine nearby at WOC) and it was challenging to avoid astringency above 25%. I pulled a few shots much higher without astringency, which I'm guessing benefitted from a lucky combination of good puck prep + unusually little clumping compared to that of other shots I pulled at WOC
Deserves another several months of exploring. I think we’re seeing a peephole into the future of espresso
Please do dig into that!! Loved your input about it and this is such a new world to explore inside the coffee world...
I was at the World of Coffee in Berlin and had great fun! Did see you there and contemplated saying hi, but didnt wanna bother you :D
Anyway, thank you for very well put together videos and channel, your videos are always very nice to watch after a long day. :))
I'd definitely be interested in hearing more about this high extraction espresso!
Yes James I’d like to see more on this. In fact, more on low waste/environmental impact and cost saving in coffee in general, for businesses and for making coffee at home.
I did try it. I think interesting is the right word. It was enjoyable and I'd love some more in depth opinions on it. At the decent stand I even used my own beans on the stand but obviously couldn't touch the grind setting. It worked surprisingly well but the shot tasted under extracted (which is surprising considering the how fine it was ground and the blooming method used).
Im just happy to see at the back the exact v60 that i also have. I always thought world barista champions never use such, that it was too mediocre for them. Now i have a new respect for my v60. Thank you.
I love the thought of using a metal filter on top of the puck. I think it would solve a lot of tamping issues and add consistency to extraction
Please do a detailed video about the process. I'm quite interested.
UPDATE: I just tried it out....and I think I'm gonna keep making espresso this way from now on. It definitely does everything Scott said it would (i.e. prevent channeling and clogging the basket mesh). In addition, it keeps my showerscreen clean.
The flavor definitely changes though so that's something for everyone to keep in mind.
What about using only a paper filter on top? It would help with the channeling but allow the oil to flow (and the clogging). I don't own an espresso machine yet, I don't know which one to buy. Waiting for James to review more of them. Which one did you use?
@@mistersquigee5119 True, but one cause of extraction inconsistencies is grinds basically clogging random parts of the filter. Worse still, they could clog the whole basket entirely and you just end up with a pressurized bomb.
It's a pretty annoying issue when I get a batch that requires a very fine grind to get good extraction but too fine that it clogs the basket. Updosing ends up being the usual workaround but I honestly don't like it because the flavors become too overwhelming for me.
I love your intelligent picking apart of and breaking down products and processes, both mechanically/physically and philosophically. I thought this was super interesting, and I don't have any experience making espresso myself nor am I in the business. Its interesting from an entertainment perspective but also because the ideas are applicable to other walks of life. Please pursue this if you want to!
I quit drinking coffee but I still watch all your videos.
Oh, PLEASE -- I'm dying for more. This was already one of the better bits i've seen on the paper+espresso thing.
This paper filter thing is curious, but a lot doesn't make sense to me, yet. Or, I suppose, there's a lot of theorizing about what the paper does, but I want someone to prove it. I want to see more individual tests between top/bottom etc and how they compare to various other variables.
Thanks, as always!
It's interesting even from the roasting side of view. What kind of profiles we need to avoid astrigency for these kind of extractions for example?
Given that one can make any coffee astringent with the right (wrong) extraction, I think approaching roast profiles with the goal of minimizing astringency wouldn't be a very fruitful /interesting endeavor. Instead, approach profiles with the intention of highlighting certain tasting notes/flavors (taking advantage of increased clarity and intensity at these high% extractions) or trying to maintain sweetness and clarity while cutting down on acidity (longer drying and mallard phases?) since these high extraction shots tend to intense, borderline unpleasant acidity from what I understand
Hi James! It was really nice to finally meet you. Try it on the Moka pot, I was getting a lot of good stuff. I started on the experiment as most of the clients I had buying roasted coffee couldn’t afford an espresso machine. I wanted to give them a chance to drink something as close to it as possible by using something that so many households would have. Eitherways, thanks again for the great content! P.S. God damn your tall! You look so tinny in the championship video!
Yes, this is fascinating. I would be happy to watch more of this.
In the same idea of the bottom filter, I am normally at a 17 on my grinder for espresso and 35 for V60. I will take my grinder to a 25, start grinding, and then move it pretty quickly down to the 17 mark. I think this has proven as a positive step.
I was just about to make my coffee.. Perfect timing
Remélem jó lett! 😉 Régen találkoztunk
@@balintvaray5924 a virág forma még nem megy, de az íz ok! Tény és való!
This is very interesting. I love the idea of pushing the boundaries in coffee to get more out of it! So yes, dig deeper for us and show us.
Brilliant video and explanation as always. Love this channel!
Tbh, I’d love to hear more about that. I hope you’d explore more and “dig deep”
Would absolutely love to hear more about this James!
Yo James, these tunes are on point. Every single video!
PLEASE talk more about the analytical data behind espresso. I'm a chemical engineering major who loves spro and loves to hear the nerdiness behind espresso.
Hi James, I would love to see you dig in and play with this new approach to brewing. I have always appreciated your videos because they are straightforward and informative (obviously your production is also really nice). I trust your methods and taste and would feel quite comfortable having you pioneer an espresso revolution.
Definitely an interesting concept to explore. Looking forward to seeing where this goes.
Yeees, this is very interesting! Definitely want to see more of this kind of thing.
I would have loved to try that espresso in Berlin! I‘d really be interested in your experiences, tinkering some more with it yourself. The concept and the points you mentioned are absolutely valid. Looking forward to an eventual video!
Truly need more of this knowledge, please dig james
Here is my interesting experiment story - I have a cheap espresso machine and I don't create crema and have extract bad and unpleasant espresso. It was so bitter and I tried ground coffee bean fine setting with a hard temper but, even though the taste and crema were slightly improved, however, it disappears quickly. A month ago I watched "Higher Extraction with Aeropress Filter" by The Real Sprometheus UA-cam channel and I started an experiment variety that I could achieve longer crema and taste.
So in my case, I found that using a coffee filter under the portafilter with finer ground coffee and hard temping would not only create "long enough" crema and itself improved a lot. Now I am happy to drink espresso a lot than several months ago.
Definitely worth exploring in more depth and variations. Keep those coming 🙏
I can't make myself go under 3:1 because I know I'd be wasting a lot, so I love where this is going.
Thanks for the balanced thoughts. Regarding savings in coffee, this is probably easier & quicker to implement by using smaller doses. Extracting as much as possible from what is available (not necessarily absolute soluble mass in the bean), more achievable from making longer (but weaker) shots.
I was at the WOC event, but the Decent booth was so clogged that I gave up after getting buffeted around by the crowd a bit and went to watch all the championship events. I have such a love-hate relationship with just how I perceive Scott Rao the man, but damnit, he's a really fascinating individual who does really worthy and fascinating things, and I'm glad we have minds like him and you in the industry to share these ideas. I'm really interested in this concept and I'd love to play around with this myself on the Dalla Corte Mina we have at work.
Definitely interested. Of course. Anyone into coffee should be interested.
Not even only on this particular method that we saw in this video, I think there is a huge room for exploration in all those crazy new things that are emerging. And not only espresso wise.
And please, reconsider this rule you have where you have to buy stuff to review/experiment. As soon as you review multiple different products, from multiple different brands, as soon as you keep your honesty in the analysis and in the careful words you use, there is no issue. Really no issue at all. It is only a limiting factor for you to explore, which feels a bit sad for this channel.
Looks like the BPlus WDT device. Same crowd who make the Apollo grinder!
Super great video, definitely keep going down this rabbit hole!
I'd love to see more on this and furthermore, whether it's something for the home barista or if it has potential commercial application. Personally, I cant see people in a coffee shopping using 2 paper filters, increasing the prep time and essentially doubling the brew time to make a shot that isn't 'great'. I think if we're saying it increases extraction to 28% then what we're really looking at is using significantly less coffee in the basket to hit our normal % and therefore it makes it about being a cost effective method of espresso brewing rather than it being about a great tasting high extraction shot. Add some reusable filters to the mix and then maybe it becomes feasible in a business environment..That's just my thoughts though, we'd all love to hear more of yours 🙂
This was the first time I saw anything about this. I noticed the dual paper filters and immediately started thinking.
But then I saw the machine and realized you could write pressure profiles. My mind kinda tilted at that moment (and thank you that your "Further reading" showed me what machine that is)
From what I see, I agree with you that these possibilities need to be further explored. I believe we can see more different flavour profiles from different coffees.
Fully agree with you James. Eventough a new method might not result in the tastiest shot ever, it might bring us closer to increased consistency in creating better shots. In other words: I'd love to see you exploring this technique.
Taking it further: I'd love to contribute! (KvdW Speedster, EK43, proper water-treatment)
I dig your channel very much. Thanks for the entertaining educational insightful perspective.
Yes! Please go down this rabbit hole!!
Really interesting James and would really like to see you explore this more via a video on this platform- thanks again, Al
I have Caravel Arrarex-manual lever machine. I’ve experimented quite a bit with distributing grind into portafilter, then “pre-wetting” the puck, by adding water and mixing the grounds to get the puck wet, letting the slurry bloom, THEN if I remember right, tamping a bit, locking the portafilter and pulling the shot. I get a “hybrid” between espresso and pour over which is extremely interesting-as this allowed me to grind extremely finely. I could get sweet, floral shots from single origin light roasts. I had thought of using filters but hadn’t got around to it. The problem was, no control of the temperature. But I’m convinced that this concept: finer grind, longer pre-infusion and “bloom” is the way to go. If the shot isn’t sweet, it’s a deal breaker for me. This makes it sweet. So many shops try to sell sour espresso and make excuses.
Hi James, would love to see your experimentation with paper filters, your approach is always thoughtful and insightful.
also, thank you so much for your suggestions on a previous video, decreasing the amount of coffee and slightly altering the grind made a world of difference in my shots at home.
Question is, did you stirred that espresso? 🤔😀
*stir "did you stir" not "stirred" :)
@@pawelgabrysiewicz646 My bad. :) Not my native language and just didn't check that before I posted it. 🙌
@@pawelgabrysiewicz646 boooo
@@pawelgabrysiewicz646 I think it's more fun to let non-native speakers have their say without correcting them. Takes the fun away. Hold your tongue.
@@hamburger-fries no, it does not take any fun away, instead promotes learning and good use of languages. Also, people are usually thankful for being corrected and welcome comments if done kind way and polite and with good intentions.
Spoke to you briefly at WoC by the brew & espresso bars and I was lucky to take some time out to taste Scott's shots over 2 days. I think the development has been great for this test in the short time it's been happening. The shots themselves were interesting profiles, I found them not overly sweet, and a milky/creamy body. Excited see how this gs continue to develop & would love to hear more in-depth thoughts from you!
Yes please! I think this is super interesting and would love to hear your perspective on some experiments that you run 👍
Definitely keep going with these videos! Such interesting techniques
I absolutely would love to see you dig deeper into that! First time commenting by the way. Love your channel!
Heck ya you should dig deeper! I feel that there is just so much more undiscovered potential in coffee and the more knowledgeable people dig into it and share it with the community the faster we can all draw our conclusions out of it. So, please! Dig deeper!
I experimented with this technique using Cafelat Robot. Except I only use the filter on top, not the bottom. It allows two things to happen:
1) The filter seal the shower screen and it stop water from wetting the coffee grounds before I pull the shot;
2) It allows me to pull longer shot without changing grind size. For example, I can pull a full minute shot of 1:2 ratio with 20 grams of coffee.
I'm not going to use the filter all the time, but it certainly gives me more options in a manual espresso maker that's usually only available in a machine.
4 years later, the concept has proven to be right, extraction on espresso has been push up a lot by both hardware and software. We have grinders produce fast flow espresso, basket allow very fine grind, profile that based on blooming espresso yet more forgiving.
You can easy to achieve 23-25% extraction nowadays, 27% has becaome the new limit .
Hi James,
thanks for the video and sharing ur thought about Scotts interesting experimentation. You talking about espresso in that context and I think Scott left the espresso area here. Imo, this is something else.
Step by step:
1. The bottom paperfilter holdingback fines dramatically. Preventing fines "clusters" to block wholes in the basket. Filtering out far (!) more than knwon and exepcted for espresso.
2. The paper on top is building a barrier for the water. This will build up kind of a little bit of a water column as known from levermachines and aeropress. Enforcing avoid channeling. Thi I think can be good and maybe lead to think about screens design?
3. Profile with long bloom known from last decades experiments, not particulary new.
4. Low pressure of 2 bars is not compatible with the espresso world whatsoverer - and here, imo, Scott is crossing the border: we are talking about something else than espresso but not about espresso (even if u grind superfine). 2 bars no not no crema - logical. Appreciate crema is not liked by some but espresso IS with crema - no matter if u like it or not. Also assume not all expected ingredients to be extracted here with that a low pressure. Guess there definitely lots of extracted stuff will be missing.
So, to sum up:
A drink was made with two bars pressure pushed through a substance consisting out of super fine ground coffee and was massively filtered after and than which - finally - did not taste like espresso. I think a new coffee based drink has been created here that should be named differently. As u mentioned it's "a new way of brewing".
Tbh, I'm not big fan of pushing extractions to limits to save money if we are leaving the espresso path and create something new instead which we should treat differently and not as espresso.
I apologize, but I think this is the wrong journey...sorry... :(
Unbelievable! I thought Scott had retired from the coffee industry a while back when he sold his coffee shop in Amherst to Jeff, his cafe business partner. Rao's coffee helped me through highschool and university. I went back to Amherst last week after being away for 20 years, sadly there's no more Rao's Cafe, but fortunately there's still a roastery, and I picked up 3 five-pound bags of freshly roasted Rao's coffee!
I'd like to see what happens with just the filter on top... I hate cleaning shower screens...
a cone of unextracted coffee in the upper center of the puck is what happens. that's the one to avoid, the top paper.
Definitely always good to see some new approaches. I’d love for you to get more into why this brewing method creates the flavour profile it does. So how the ratios of the compounds extracted change, and their individual impact on flavour. That would give people a baseline to explore for themselves and to adapt their brewing profiles to the coffee they are using.
Well, I've been there, tasted few coffees. First of all - there were different beans with different results, and all technique nuances, workflow was not something, that usual barista is using in daily routine. I'd say that Wendelboe's Kenyan coffee roasted to filter was spectacular, awesome, really out of usual range of flavour. I think, people who came there and tasted it with me they just didn't understood that from start. You really need to go through few shots to see that. This was an extraordinary experience, just not consistent, everybody tasted different coffees on different settings and recipes. Best shots were out of this world, most of others were somehow astrigent or dry. And I think this expirience should change understanding of baristas about bad taste in their espressos. At least people should change sense of the word "overextraction".
Fascinating stuff. I was wondering how this may become a more "mass market" proposition; especially the paper filter top and bottom to the puck, and then realized that it kinda already exists in the ESE "pads"...
Please dig deeper James! I went to WOC just for this new toy/tool too! Maybe you could discuss whether or not you could see eg the decent machine in a really busy coffee shop setup, or do you rather see it in a roastery for the roasters or coffee buyers or training lab or home coffee enthusiasts etc! Great video as always! Thanks for speaking coffee!
The thinness you experienced sounds like what I experience with aero press that uses filter papers. What Scott needs is a non-absorbent bottom element that avoids the clogging of holes but doesn't absorb so much of the good stuff we associate with good espresso. Aero press leaves me flat though it tastes good.
As a “coffee hacker” I’d love to see more of this method.