Sam, your skirting around the obvious point. Convenient and inexpensive battery replacement requires that: a) the battery should be built in such a way that repair or recycling is easy and b) vehicle and battery should be designed so that battery removable/replacement is straightforward and c) warranty and post-warranty terms on the battery shouldn't foist responsibility for proper battery disposal, viz. remanufacture or recycling, onto the vehicle owner. No EV owner should have to figure out what needs to happen with a failing battery. That is what the i) the vehicle manufacturer ii) the battery manufacturer and iii) the battery recycler/remanufacturer need to figure out, together. If this isn't properly sorted prior to a car buyer ever making a decision to purchase an EV that would be an industry failure. No battery second life problem should ever arise for EV owners. All that the vehicle owner should have to do is to drive to a place of service where the battery can be quickly replaced and then to drive away without having a huge bill for their trouble. DIY second life batteries are a stupid idea. You should stop advocating for this stupidity, Sam. No EV owner wants or should be encouraged to accept the responsibility of taking care of an aging battery that has seen better years. That is probably a formula for failed DIY projects that ought never be undertaken. Easy battery swapping (something that Sam has developed an irrational hatred for) backed by firm consumer protection provisions will need to become the norm if EV owners are to be protected from the prospect of unaffordable battery replacements.
I live in a rural town in Australia. There are 12 ICE repair workshops in my area. I have a 5 year old EV with a failing battery. Please supply a list os EV battery repairers in Australia.
Haven’t own an EV but had been driving a Lexus hybrid for some years. Post the same question to the service guy about replacing the hybrid battery and he told me that the whole battery comes in may modules so people don’t have to replace the whole thing but one module at a time. Not sure if EV works on the same principle but you’d thought it should
great video and good topic. i think the reason there isn't many places that want to repair a battery is the lack of training by the manufacturers, they generally advise the centers to replace the pack as troubleshooting and repairing it is risky and to successfully fix it right and offer warranty on the repair would be hard. as the batteries weren't really designed to be repaired. it can be done by someone very skilled who has expertise in this field but for majority of the techs this would be a hazard and high liability if something went wrong or battery catches fire later. i think manufacturers should simply offer lifetime warranty on the packs and replace them at no cost and take the old pack back.
Rejected battery into energy storage for residential home... Sound dangerous Unless it is a battery chemistry that don't catch fire sodium battery Even LFP LMFP M3P they are still dangerous if arson is done and that energy can easily burn down everything
For most repurposing the battery into a private power-wall house storage power bank will be the easiest & most affordable way to get their better return on the former car battery pack.Until more Battery stations qualify to give the correct opinion & diagnosis on its servicing
where I live there is no battery service center. it would most likely have to be done at tesla service center and I also heard they don't even replace a new pack its a refurbished pack and they give you only one year warranty on the refurbished if anything goes wrong.
sadly in most countries there's a shortage of technicians in general. High voltage qualified ones are almost inexistent. So there will be a long time until this need is filled. Also shortage of electricians to instal chargers, technicians for heatpumps and solar panels. Best way to fix this problem is to lower the entry requirements. They should provide schematics and drawings for battery packs so any engineer can service it. That would eliminate the need for years of experience in the field. And yes. it's pretty much illegal to work on a battery without qualifications and safety precautions
I think the problem is that "the industry" doesn't make marketing against schools and talk about the possibilities in the field (of physics). Now "everyone" think that singer or TV, video blogger, etc is the future.
The real scam is that although battery and lithium prices have fallen severely over the last decade, auto makers still charge you the same price when you need a new battery for an old vehicle like they did 10 years ago.
Dealerships are incentivized to rip off and discourage EV owners. Tesla out of warranty isn't much better. Packs are not very repairable as they are now sealed in foam so unless it is a controller problem many need to be dismantled to be reused or fixed. What we need to see is more LFP.
Battery structure is changing too. From Packs to Blades. Blades can be swapped out easier than testing thousands of cells to find the bad ones. If you fast charge daily your battery will last 100,000 miles. Heat is the enemy of the battery and DC Fast Charging creates a LOT of heat. Home 240v Stage 2 is the safest way to charge quickly and keep the battery from going nuclear with heat. Tesla owners have fail safes built into the system that was created by Tesla KNOWING the dangers. Tesla Chargers and cars designed to work together safely. The other ones are fast as hell and that's it. That is the dangerous selling point. Check out the newer BMW batteries. Massive beer can shaped cylindrical cells larger than the Tesla ones. Elon could not be prouder that others are finally getting it and making stuff that works and works well. Stealerships are the main problem with EVs for sure. They want cars that require service frequently and these are not those cars and SUVs. They know the end is near.
ccibinel • Correct. Just look at Sandy Munro presentation on his channel when they try to open a new Tesla EV battery that's sealed in the pink foam. They say you can't open it unless you destroy it. Elon Musk ia a greedy chameleon. He doesn't build EVs to help regular people. He builds expensive EVs for rich people who don't care about money at all, and for idiots who fall into his trap. Also, how much ia a new tire for a Tesla EV? How much is a Kwh at fast chargers? Just compare these two expenses with the ones you have with the most economical hybrid on the market today, and you'll see that by buying an EV today you just burden yourself with high expenses if you're not rich and idiot. I'm all for EV adoption, 100%, but today's expenses with an EV are just simple, intentional expensive rip-off.
And what good does it do to have a battery repair center on your CONTINENT if it is on the other side of the continent let alone being in your city? How exactly do you get your car there and back affordably?
That sounds like WAY too much work. But businesses are starting to use used car battery packs for grid storage, so you could sell to one of them. If you want home energy storage, buy a battery designed for it. Unless you WANT to do the work…
Looks like the 4680 battery packs won't be that repairable due to the Pink Foam encasing. Don't know how they would repurpose this one . See the Sandy Munro teardown of it.. Looks like the blade battery would be easily serviceable as each pack is a blade.
Sandy Munroe Also regularly says you can have durability and longevity or you can have reliability. You can’t have both. Teslas new unreparable battery is completely sealed making it completely waterproof. Removing the issue of it bursting into flames after being flooded with salt water. A major issues with lithium battery cars.
My situation is a 2012 Chevy Volt with 185,000 miles. It still runs just fine, but a factory specified reprogramming has reduced the usable capacity for 10 kwh to 8 kwh, and it switches to gas at unpredictable times.
Chevy Volt's are a cheap GM products that are too expensive for what you get (so a bad value for your money). GM and Ford are both reducing their EV production because they cannot make a profit on them.
@@mauriceharting5877i disagree. The Chevy volt was a car ahead of its time. It is reliable and still sought after by used car buyers. It pioneered a lot of technologies (e.g. the el. motor) that are in use today.
@@mauriceharting5877 the Chevy Volt is actually a remarkably good car, especially for it’s time. They’ve been quite reliable and most owners have had good experiences with the battery life. They were not overly expensive and have held their resale value well. Additionally, GM is backing away from *some* of the vehicles, but not the Chevy Bolt which has been their most successful EV so far. I’m not as familiar with Ford as I don’t own a Ford EV. What I gather is yes, Ford is having trouble making their EV models at a profitable production cost. These companies have seen tougher times before, I’m confident that they will continue to improve their processes and be making cost competitive EVs at a profit within a couple of years and will succeed in gaining a decent amount of market share.
@@realestatenow The reason why so many used EV buyers want a Chevy Volt is because they are cheap and not because they are reliable. Used Tesla's hold their value much more ... that is a fact!
I guess it’s like anything, if it’s designed to be repaired, it can be repaired. I have rescued many Apple phones about Samsung is just about impossible, even though they are essentially the same thing.
Be smart. Charge between 40-80% for local use. 100% when absolutely need the distance, while using up the 20% extra right away. At 100% idle use heat swells batteries.
I think a big thing that's needed is open-source repair information for the batteries. I've read that Nissan has opened up information about the Leaf batteries, and GM is giving out repair information for their new Ultium batteries.
Good luck with Tesla's blackbox model that copies Apple's anti-repair policy. They want you to keep buying new Tesla's instead letting you repair it yourself.
@@Davran2742 Me too. I had model 3 first, then sold it in 2022 for a profit, then bought Bolt. Much better value than Tesla, and rides more comfortably too.
OK, where is a listing for "Qualified battery centers" by US State? Only read about a handful of places even willing to try to repair these modern EV packs, and of those the feedback for the Model 3 seems to be even when they replace a entire module with a wear matched and identical attribute module, the way the system is designed it will rapidly fail again? Where can I read about modern EV batteries being repaired successfully 3rd party, and specifically for the Model 3?
Would be good if some sort of standard existed whereby the battery/car could be instructed to run a test and produce a report on the state of each cell, etc. Perhaps it could do this as a default setting every 3/6 months overnight, and postpone the operation if the user wants to drive the car, and give the user a message on the screen if they've got a bad cell. Could have an online marketplace for used tested cells to match the other cells' capacity. Tesla could probably lead that quite easily.
I agree reuse and repair can often be quite easy for someone who knows how to do it. One exception is structural batteries, taking those apart can be quite difficult. Although they can be recycled easily. There is likely more than one type of "structural battery".
on my truck (lightning) you need a lift and a battery stand, as well as some PPE (duh). That pretty much eliminates any DIY solution when the time comes. Not much different than an engine out in one of these modern trucks. Requires lift = not diy friendly because no one rents lifts anymore.
First find out if there is a obd software for your EV like LEAF SPY or CANZE that can tell you the individual cell health. If there are only 1 or 2 bad cells then it makes sense to look into cell level replacement not pack replacement.
But if you look at the foam in Tesla batteries and the welded connections in BYD batteries, replacing cells is totally uneconomic. GMH & VW batteries (LG Chem?) however offer a much better repair possibility.
Hyundai's Ioniq 5 battery replacement in Canada has been 60,000 , several thousand more than the original price. Not confident on any company's battery replacement in North American.
I don't particularly like the idea of mixing cells of varied origins with old ones. Since all of the cells in a pack are typically from the same batch, one cell going bad may very well be an indicator that there are more than one latent sub-par cell in the whole pack and that your first repair could be the first of many. Likewise, since manufacturers don't sell their factory-new EV cells on the open market, your replacement cells are likely coming from packs of similar origins. And then you have the very high stakes should anything go wrong with the refurb. Insurance companies will likely get ticklish about how many times battery packs get opened for repairs should that become commonplace.
@@Anomize23 Where do you get the "new oil" when the manufacturer doesn't sell factory-new battery cells at retail? You have to gamble on someone else's discarded "oil" and hope the fraction you replace is in better shape than the fraction you kept.
It's all science, no magic anyone who knows what they're doing will probably replace with a similar State cell, it's more economical t o o. BMS manages the cells also
Hi Sam, thank you. A smart entrepreneur would be looking at this, setting up the appropriate infrastructure to repair, service, recycle and provide the options to potentially a growing industry. Current ICE do exactly this, all the way down to wrecking yards. Ok it's new technologies but so was ICE. Great posts
Good video and an area that is not getting enough attention. We also have Sandy Munroe who pointed out fairly recently about a well know EV battery having "zero repairability". Part of the issue seems to be that we go from batteries that have very low degradation to a state where they suddenly can't be charged, and there don't seem to be official figures on how often this is happening.
Definitely would be good to be given the failure rate and longevity stats for batteries, this should be mandatory information collected by and published by the government. As an EV owner, I’d really appreciate being able to know for myself as well as be able to discuss and provide accurate information to other people who are interested in purchasing an EV. Right now without accurate information the fossil fuel industry is able to make wild and untrue claims to try and convince people that EVs aren’t safe or that the batteries are dying after only 5 years etc.
Sandy Munroe Also regularly says you can have durability and longevity or you can have reliability. You can’t have both. Teslas new unreparable battery is completely sealed making it completely waterproof. Removing the issue of it bursting into flames after being flooded with salt water. A major issues with lithium battery cars.
Can you do a segment on charging systems in areas for infrastructure focusing on utilities as the rate of charge requiring an area to upgrade the KW needed in an area to charge as the demand increases over time as more EV 's within an area increase and the draw compared to houses overloads the grid ? Nothing seems to be talked about the utilities being able to service the grid between residence and hungry EV charging within a area where you may live today .Let alone considering commercial needs.
Let's say a person drives 50 km in one day, then the car needs about 7-8 kWh. The house may need 4kW 24 hours/day... Do these 7-8 kWh/day matter, I don't think so. Many houses need 20 to 40,000 kWh a year, so charging ONE EV is marginal in all ways.
Electric utilities just have to upgrade their billing system so they can charge different prices per hour for electricity. Once they have done that most EV owners will charge their car when electricity is cheap. This actually helps stabilize the grid because turning off power generation when they are producing more electricity than can be used is really hard to do. 600v to 240v step down transformers, the ones you see on power poles are the only things that are really sized for how much electricity goes through them over a 3 day period. They need to cool down when power is not getting used so AC, new houses, and EV’s can cause them to overheat. But I have never heard power companies complain about selling more power and having to do small upgrades. Plus solar on the houses solves this problem because the electricity gets used before it goes through that transformer.
You don't even need to recycle the battery. just find the bad module/cell and replace it. 9 times out of 10 it is a weak cell disturbing the balance, reducing range. Sure labor costs associated with pulling the battery aren't cheap but you are pulling it anyway if you want to replace it.
@@ctuna2011 That's because there aren't yet enough 10 year old EVs on the road yet to keep battery repair shops in business. In time, this will change, but it won't be instant.
What do you think of solid-state batteries. Will there be many types and prices? I feel like Ford etc should be investing in QScape over SPower. Why so?
I think that the biggest mistake EV owner used to do is to always charge to 100%. That's the main reason why Nissan Leaf 1st gen lost capacity so much. It had small range. so of course drivers would plug it in at any opportunity. A 80-100% top-up counts almost as much as a full cycle in degradation. Second gen doesn't have the degradation problem because it's longer range and the drivers don't charge it as much. My 2013 Leaf has still the full 12 bars at 70.000 miles. It's not impressive in isolation, but most Leafs lose 30-40% of the range by that point. I only charge it to 65%. 80% just in exceptional cases
Your charging methodology will definitely extend the lifespan of the battery by a lot, but the thing that really hurts the Leaf is the fact that it doesn’t have an active system to heat or cool the battery when temperatures exceed optimum operating ranges.
@@sjsomething4936 Everyone seems to repeat that, but I haven't seen any proof.. 2nd gen Leaf doesn't have any significant degradation issue, even without thermal management. Better chemistry, bigger capacity and less frequent top-ups is all it needs. Excluding some very extreme scenarios, the battery sits within a reasonable temperature range even without active thermal management.
Even AC charging people tend to charge at max amps which is not needed. I calculated that the 60 kwh pack in a tesla only needs to charge at up to 20 Amps (240 VAC). 20% to 80% = 60%* 60kwh = 36kwh, 20amps * 240VAC = 4.8kwh, 36kwh / 4.8 kwh = 7.5 hours. So even lowering the car's charging amps at home can extend battery life and reduce heat lost and wear & tear on your home wirings.
@@chetsaxton1526 Tesla people prefer to charge at max available AC speed. Apparently at 7kw the onboard charger efficiency is about 90% and it goes as low as 75% for 2 kwh. In Europe with the overpriced electricity they don't want to waste anything
I have a g1 Honda hybrid - if you try to get to the battery you have the following warning - do not open - you will be killed. This is a tiny battery pack compared to those you'll find on Full EVs. Anyone even considering opening one of these for a repair needs to be very serious about their approach to doing the repair with full technical knowlege of the particular pack, safety features, proper resplacement parts, tools , checks - or they are risking their lives or the lives of the people who drive the modified pack - A Certification program is needed. If such an entity were setup. Safety could be maintained.
If black mass is so valuable why according to CSIRO and UniMelb, only 10% of lithium based batteries are recycled. The rest languish in storage before going to landfill with the rest of the other 90%.
If the lithium is being used for small devices, such as cell phones or laptops, it's not worth enough to be worth the effort of taking it somewhere where it can be recycled. Not the case for an EV in a junkyard, where you've got tons of the stuff all in one place.
By the way: people who worked on the Nissan Leaf batteries and battery-electronics now work for Gotion high-tech and other Chinese battery manufacturers...because who does very good work wants to be treated properly and paid the best.
I have a Ford fusion plug-in hybrid going on eight years now draining the battery twice a day and charging at least twice a day. I still can’t believe that the battery is working. Yes it lost a little bit of range but still that is a lot of cycles.
Have you seen what's involved in repairing a battery? It is a lot of work and expensive. 5 hours to pull the battery = $1,000, 5 hours to diagnose and tear apart the battery = $1,000. Nobody replaces cells, they replace the module, 3 to $4K. close it up = $500 - install and test $1,000. Factor in your time, car rental etc. and a 10 to $12K offer on an installed used battery starts to sound pretty good. You can always sell your used battery to recoup some of the cost, "WRONG" that was included in the price, your old battery now belongs to the used battery company. Have a nice day!!!😂😂😂😂😂😂
I've heard re-purposing to domestic battery application is probably more cost effective than reconditioning/cel replacement but can't find any companies doing this. Hopefully the talk inspires some action.
@@orionbetelgeuse1937 you could say the same for any company not doing something, the day before they started doing it but it doesn't make it true. I'm looking at 2nd hand Leaf batteries at 50% capacity (12KWh) for NZ$2,300. Add a fire-proof container + BMS & you have a domestic battery at a fraction of the cost of a commercially available one.
A HV battery repairer in Croatia? That’s handy. Who in their right mind buy an older EV out of warranty? I saw some Tesla expert say that Tesla batteries last 1,000,000 miles. That is 100 years of average use. So much BS to do with the whole industry. EV sales in Australia are 7%. Hybrids are outselling EVs 2 to 1. Keep me out of this expensive experiment. In 10 or 15 years they could be viable to own and run.
5:50 ... It's not exactly a myth but more that it's no longer true. When Tesla first started making the roadster and even the Model S the battery pack was in fact pretty close to 50% of the price. Of course now that battery prices have fallen some 80 to 90%, it's no longer true. A decade ago a Model S with 240 miles of range was $80K. Today's has almost double the range, is far more capable and it's $6,000 less!
How much is it to recycle a ev battery in Australia? Give them a ring Sam. A previous comment on you videos, said he was told they charge you $2 a kg, and would not take a damaged battery. Ecobatt I think it is.
Perhaps EV manufacturers that do the best job of used battery support. Will have the most success with customer service. There is no reason why a company like Tesla should just leave their customers hanging. Think of the information would they be able to accumulate. If the batteries have value why are the EV companies not interested in buying back used batteries? The concept of best experience would be great to apply here.. I believe EV manufacturers are making a huge mistake in not warning their customers of used battery rip off. Of course EV manufacturers could wait until they're forced to do something by having a law passed to control their responsibilities. It seems to make no sense that EV companies are not helping with use batteries. What do others think? Thanks for this program ! 🙂
Sam - this repair issue is a general one ... basically true for all devices and your household. People fir example assume thst they need a new heating system for € 30k...when in reality they for example only have to replace an oxidation rod for €30 or an igniter or some other minor part. That's why it is crucial that kids get a physics, a technical education and an education regardibg finances as well as how to cope with government administration and contracts.
Re black mass being worth $10,000 per ton (1:30), does anyone know if Tesla provides a credit based on this price for your old battery pack when replacing it with a new or refurbished battery? Or, can they just load my old battery pack in my rented u-haul truck so I can take it home and then have someone pick it up and pay me the $10,000 per ton rate? Also, does anyone have any updates re Johnny Bacigalupo and Rob Hussey being charged a whopping £17,000 bill by Tesla to fix their battery - which they claim was "damaged by the rain"? Lastly, re repairing battery packs (8:15), Tesla's latest battery technology (4680 cell-based battery packs) is not serviceable. Sandy Munro revealed this fact in one of his videos.
Yeah, I doubt anyone gets the $10k per ton rate. Sounds like a hassle to lug it home from the service center when they refuse to pay that much, and then you have to find someone who will. Bet it's not that easy.
I always throw away my tools after a year or 2 because they have a little wear and tear on them. If my tools are not at 100% they should go to the land fill. That statement makes just as much sense as sending lithium car batteries to a landfill. It just doesn’t happen.
Hey Viking what your saying is not true in many ways as in a lot of cases unless you can get your ev at your own cost to a battery service Centre that knows and works on that specific kind of battery then your only option is replacement. Here in nz even for many evs including Nissan leaf there are only about 2 companies that offer a full pull apart of the ev battery pack and even by the time it’s pulled apart and cells tested, faulty cells found and replaced and then pack re assembled and re tested again and the fitted you can often be looking at 3-4K for the repair bill vs buying a whole good second hand battery even with a larger capacity for around $6k for example. As for packs being worth money, due to them being Dg dangerous goods class and super expensive to send around the country even to try to recycle and also companies charging a lot in nz to even take the pack in for recycling yeah your pack is basically worth nothing if it’s faulty or failed or removed from the ev with issues, and in some cases the owners are actually charged to send it away for the recycling cost. Keep in mind nz has to send packs overseas at high cost to recycle lithium. So you may want to get your facts right in your video otherwise it’s hugely misleading to many customers. As for people needing some skills to even open up and work on a battery pack remember these are all Hv packs so if you really don’t know what your doing and have a lot of training then you can easily kill yourself. Finding qualified people here in nz who can even work on these packs there’s literally like less than 10 people in our whole entire country so it’s like finding hens teeth to even get access to a person trained up and with the skills to do it but yet you fail to mention these things clearly in your video.
@@IverKnackerov I have a perfectly serviceable 20 year old petrol with 37k miles on. It's a 4x4 that weighs less than a BEV mini. It can do 80 miles for the equivalent CO2 of 4 passengers in a week. I'm not sold on the American dream of burgers, trucks and the world leaders in excess. History will rip Tesla a new backside.
To the best of my knowledge: - Tesla invalidates your free supercharging for the life of the vehicle (which probably applies to the majority of Teslas that are out of warranty), if you take the battery to a place like Gruber for repair. This is a massive disincentive to having the battery repaired rather than replaced. - Tesla seems pretty aggressive about getting its hands back on your old battery, if you do have it replaced by them. I can't remember the number but when I got a quote for them to upgrade my battery, when I asked how much consideration they were giving me for the old battery (they did not include this on the written estimate), they replied I think in the thousands of dollars. (was it $10k? I wish I could remember). That is, if I wanted to keep the battery, that's how much more I'd have to pay. Something like that. - I've heard that the repairs can be good, but might not last as long as one wants. - side-note the warranty that Tesla offers on an upgraded or replaced battery is less than the number of years offered on the vehicle battery when new. If I recall it was 4 years.
Usually, a bad battery pack has some bad cells and the rest are still good. People will buy those packs and use the good cells for power walls and other things.
battries can be repaired, it may be just a cell/module or block that is defective and the pack could be repaired and rebalanced and gve many more miles life
Hmmm, is replacing a cell in a structural pack an easy fix? Did u see Munro on opening a structural pack? That was not easy... Other than that, mostly agrew
Recycling batteries is not new or unique to EVs. Lead acid car batteries are recycled at about 90%. That's why we don't have lead mines all over the place and why lead is still affordable. The battery in your car might have some lead in it that was mined in the 1950s! Modern batteries like the ones used in EVs have a lot of use and value even after they are too weak to be useful in a car. Many auto parts are refurbished and you have to turn in the old one when you buy one so it can be rebuilt. Refurbishing EV batteries is going to be a huge opportunity. There are shops that can repair something as delicate as an iPhone so I'm confident there will be tools and processes invented to repair EV batteries. Aftermarket packs with newer battery technology will also be great to see.
This is just one more reason many people are on the sidelines waiting for the industry to gain more maturity. We are used to long ladting vehicles that can acheive at least 200,000 miles with good maintenance. We also want manufacturers that will be around for the life of the vehicle. Today who knows which companys and cars will be around in a few years. The technology evolution also raises concerns about degradation in used prices due to obsolescence.
If too many drivers swapped their 'ICE' car for a battery car, unless they had their own big LTO battery at home with lots of solar to charge their car from overnight (instead of pulling from the grid) then it would be a big undertaking for the new power stations and increased grid power capacity. Denying nuclear, letting copious gas get sold out to foreigners' control, clowning around with big solar and wind farms is helping to keep the majority poor and lower living standards. I can sympathize with the occasional commercial battery bank for grid stabilisation. But my point is how many 'fast-charge' (still like 6x slower than petrol filling) stations can you have before it overloads local power? Even if the power is available for all the fast chargers, have you seen those vids from california of long queues of teslas waiting to use the fast charger late at night?
I think they do not need the old battery because that would make them waste more money to recycle the battery. They might give you money just to keep your battery
That's if you charge it at 30_ 80% so only use 50% of the battery all the time .perfect weather 23 degrees. And you slow charge it all the time......that's what is good for a ev
For the vast majority of the time, when you're just driving around town, using 50% of the battery and slow charging all the time is all that you need. But, the other 50% of the battery and the fast charging capabilities is still there when you need it. Sure, using that capability wears out the battery faster, but most people road trip infrequently enough that it just doesn't matter.
NIO Battery Car Separation is the solution. Battery Swapp Stations. Cooperation NIO Changan CATL BYD Geely Volvo Polestar Stellantis VW for Battery Swapp Stations. No Battery Issues. Never.
Hi Sam. Love your channel. But please get a better microphone. The constant popping is becoming a real annoyance as I try and watch all your videos. Thanks. Keep up the good work!!
The cost of a new battery per useable kWh will drop to $2 within the next 7 years. To type it in letters: two US dollars per kilowatt-hour. And not only will battery packs become way easier to recycle while less energy will be used during the recycling process - single defect cells will be way easier to replace. Replacing the entire battery pack? NIO already proves to have the best option for that. Doesn't seem so costly if you have to replace a battery pack of a car where it is way more complicated, time-consuming and costly...if you aren't short sighted. 😉
It would be lovely if EV battery packs could easily be repaired and have a quality battery pack; but you'll find Tesla and others have no confidence in the work done by some independent shop. Poor work could result in a fire. In that case Tesla may literally stop you from using any of their facilities including charging. This is the main reason why people don't risk it and feel they must buy a new one. What needs to be done is have a certification system for battery pack repairs - then - companies like Tesla can probably accept the quality of the repair as meeting certain limits they would take a risk on. Insurance companies might also be willing to take on the risk of a repair vs replacement if a certified entity did the repair otherwise they do not know the risk involved.
I don't think so, the infrastructure around it will be too expensive. Charging a car on a "road trip" is a real problem for a really small number of people. If not even taxi drivers have problems with today's system, who are the people that are more dependent on their cars? Most people stop for eating at least once a day, why not charge the battery at the same time?
@@leiflillandt1488 you forget emergency situations. Imagine you just came home from work with near empty battery and was about to plug in. All of sudden you receive an emergency call maybe an important business deal or a medical emergency for a relative in the next town. Sure you can call Uber or taxi but unless you are in a big city, it's still going to take 10+minutes to get to you. They don't happen happen often but life's important moments are often not predictable.
Who’s going to buy your old battery and how does that matter? I don’t have time to figure this stuff out, I need my car to work again tomorrow, I need it fixed now. Battery repair or replacement when they fail out of warranty still means the end of a car, doesn’t it? Except maybe for something like a Nissan Leaf, but still, that works only if you have plenty of time and don’t need your car every day. There is a good video from ‘transport evolved’ about the issue of repairability, check it out. This plus charging network are major obstacles to EV adoption past the stage of ‘second car’ or toy car. What do you think of batteries becoming ‘structural’? Isn’t that going to make them even harder to repair and maybe even change?
Years ago even your old car batteries could be simply rebuilt as long as the case was good , they were known as tar tops . I wish someone could explain to me in these modern times why we manufacture everything to last the shortest period of time and then throw it away, thats apparently how we save resources and become more environmentally friendly . We have Apparently got more advanced and way smarter than days gone by , well so the experts keep saying anyway.
So, who is actually recycling lithium-ion batteries? Repurposing then for home or whatever energy storage is one thing, but who really extracts and reuses the metals in them when they're done?
Why no criticality of Tesla's structural battery pack that has all sorts of components buried in hardened goo? Why no demands for more repairable pack focused architectures like GM's Ultium?
The biggest scam of all is what you mentioned towards the end -- DEALERS. If you take your out of warranty to a dealer you are the biggest fool of all. It is the very model of a dealer to scam the customer for all they can. Without doing that they can't survive. Most people who know, reuse batteries, even old Nissan Leafs batteries, as home storage or other such uses. Never, EVER, take your out of warranty battery to a dealer who is just waiting to scam you.
Sam - can you publish a list of ev battery repairers in the main sales countries?
My glamping tents in Santa Cruz, CA had solar panels and Starlink using reclaimed repurposed EV batteries. Roughing it.
No recycling in Australia so fare
Sam, your skirting around the obvious point. Convenient and inexpensive battery replacement requires that: a) the battery should be built in such a way that repair or recycling is easy and b) vehicle and battery should be designed so that battery removable/replacement is straightforward and c) warranty and post-warranty terms on the battery shouldn't foist responsibility for proper battery disposal, viz. remanufacture or recycling, onto the vehicle owner.
No EV owner should have to figure out what needs to happen with a failing battery. That is what the i) the vehicle manufacturer ii) the battery manufacturer and iii) the battery recycler/remanufacturer need to figure out, together. If this isn't properly sorted prior to a car buyer ever making a decision to purchase an EV that would be an industry failure. No battery second life problem should ever arise for EV owners.
All that the vehicle owner should have to do is to drive to a place of service where the battery can be quickly replaced and then to drive away without having a huge bill for their trouble. DIY second life batteries are a stupid idea. You should stop advocating for this stupidity, Sam. No EV owner wants or should be encouraged to accept the responsibility of taking care of an aging battery that has seen better years. That is probably a formula for failed DIY projects that ought never be undertaken.
Easy battery swapping (something that Sam has developed an irrational hatred for) backed by firm consumer protection provisions will need to become the norm if EV owners are to be protected from the prospect of unaffordable battery replacements.
I live in a rural town in Australia. There are 12 ICE repair workshops in my area. I have a 5 year old EV with a failing battery. Please supply a list os EV battery repairers in Australia.
Jaguar already has an update on the I-Pace BMS to identify bad cells on a battery pack so they can replace them.
I’ve been a subscriber for approximately a year now and this video just brought you up to the next level. Well done !
Haven’t own an EV but had been driving a Lexus hybrid for some years. Post the same question to the service guy about replacing the hybrid battery and he told me that the whole battery comes in may modules so people don’t have to replace the whole thing but one module at a time. Not sure if EV works on the same principle but you’d thought it should
Thank you Sam.
great video and good topic. i think the reason there isn't many places that want to repair a battery is the lack of training by the manufacturers, they generally advise the centers to replace the pack as troubleshooting and repairing it is risky and to successfully fix it right and offer warranty on the repair would be hard. as the batteries weren't really designed to be repaired. it can be done by someone very skilled who has expertise in this field but for majority of the techs this would be a hazard and high liability if something went wrong or battery catches fire later.
i think manufacturers should simply offer lifetime warranty on the packs and replace them at no cost and take the old pack back.
There are a few companies in the Netherlands that can repair car batteries and some can convert rejected batteries into energy storage for homes.
Rejected battery into energy storage for residential home...
Sound dangerous
Unless it is a battery chemistry that don't catch fire sodium battery
Even LFP LMFP M3P they are still dangerous if arson is done and that energy can easily burn down everything
There will be more everywhere. Right now, there just isn't enough broken batteries ...
@@james_l4337no more dangerous than a backup generator and a can of gasoline
For most repurposing the battery into a private power-wall house storage power bank will be the easiest & most affordable way to get their better return on the former car battery pack.Until more Battery stations qualify to give the correct opinion & diagnosis on its servicing
where I live there is no battery service center. it would most likely have to be done at tesla service center and I also heard they don't even replace a new pack its a refurbished pack and they give you only one year warranty on the refurbished if anything goes wrong.
While some packs are repairable, the Tesla structural packs are not repairable in any manor. If they fail, the pack gets ground up.
sadly in most countries there's a shortage of technicians in general. High voltage qualified ones are almost inexistent. So there will be a long time until this need is filled.
Also shortage of electricians to instal chargers, technicians for heatpumps and solar panels.
Best way to fix this problem is to lower the entry requirements. They should provide schematics and drawings for battery packs so any engineer can service it. That would eliminate the need for years of experience in the field.
And yes. it's pretty much illegal to work on a battery without qualifications and safety precautions
I think the problem is that "the industry" doesn't make marketing against schools and talk about the possibilities in the field (of physics).
Now "everyone" think that singer or TV, video blogger, etc is the future.
The real scam is that although battery and lithium prices have fallen severely over the last decade, auto makers still charge you the same price when you need a new battery for an old vehicle like they did 10 years ago.
Tesla does better fyi
From where do you know how much they would have charged 10 years ago, when 99,9% of all EVs still had their battery warranty 10 years ago?
Dealerships are incentivized to rip off and discourage EV owners. Tesla out of warranty isn't much better. Packs are not very repairable as they are now sealed in foam so unless it is a controller problem many need to be dismantled to be reused or fixed. What we need to see is more LFP.
Battery structure is changing too. From Packs to Blades. Blades can be swapped out easier than testing thousands of cells to find the bad ones. If you fast charge daily your battery will last 100,000 miles. Heat is the enemy of the battery and DC Fast Charging creates a LOT of heat. Home 240v Stage 2 is the safest way to charge quickly and keep the battery from going nuclear with heat. Tesla owners have fail safes built into the system that was created by Tesla KNOWING the dangers. Tesla Chargers and cars designed to work together safely. The other ones are fast as hell and that's it. That is the dangerous selling point. Check out the newer BMW batteries. Massive beer can shaped cylindrical cells larger than the Tesla ones. Elon could not be prouder that others are finally getting it and making stuff that works and works well. Stealerships are the main problem with EVs for sure. They want cars that require service frequently and these are not those cars and SUVs. They know the end is near.
ccibinel • Correct. Just look at Sandy Munro presentation on his channel when they try to open a new Tesla EV battery that's sealed in the pink foam. They say you can't open it unless you destroy it.
Elon Musk ia a greedy chameleon. He doesn't build EVs to help regular people.
He builds expensive EVs for rich people who don't care about money at all, and for idiots who fall into his trap.
Also, how much ia a new tire for a Tesla EV?
How much is a Kwh at fast chargers?
Just compare these two expenses with the ones you have with the most economical hybrid on the market today, and you'll see that by buying an EV today you just burden yourself with high expenses if you're not rich and idiot.
I'm all for EV adoption, 100%, but today's expenses with an EV are just simple, intentional expensive rip-off.
Often any electrical issue with any car has a simple repair, ie. a repair jumper wire.
How do you 'repair' a battery? What exactly does it involve?
And what good does it do to have a battery repair center on your CONTINENT if it is on the other side of the continent let alone being in your city? How exactly do you get your car there and back affordably?
Great stuff as usual! Video idea: what do you think? options for converting a used car battery into home energy storage.
That sounds like WAY too much work. But businesses are starting to use used car battery packs for grid storage, so you could sell to one of them. If you want home energy storage, buy a battery designed for it. Unless you WANT to do the work…
A second hand Tesla m3 battery costs in Norway about 4,300 euro, then the work upon that, and you have quite a big home storage capacity.
Safety is the main concern it doesn't catch on fire
They could also be used for electrical storage for homes.
This is what people buy used ones for
What sort of guarantee do you get?
But if the battery fails to hold a charge on the car, how can it be used for the home?
Looks like the 4680 battery packs won't be that repairable due to the Pink Foam encasing. Don't know how they would repurpose this
one . See the Sandy Munro teardown of it.. Looks like the blade battery would be easily serviceable as each pack is a blade.
Sandy Munroe Also regularly says you can have durability and longevity or you can have reliability. You can’t have both.
Teslas new unreparable battery is completely sealed making it completely waterproof. Removing the issue of it bursting into flames after being flooded with salt water. A major issues with lithium battery cars.
Can you please refer on the name of service centar in Croatia? thanks
My situation is a 2012 Chevy Volt with 185,000 miles. It still runs just fine, but a factory specified reprogramming has reduced the usable capacity for 10 kwh to 8 kwh, and it switches to gas at unpredictable times.
Chevy Volt's are a cheap GM products that are too expensive for what you get (so a bad value for your money). GM and Ford are both reducing their EV production because they cannot make a profit on them.
@@mauriceharting5877i disagree. The Chevy volt was a car ahead of its time. It is reliable and still sought after by used car buyers. It pioneered a lot of technologies (e.g. the el. motor) that are in use today.
wasn't this reduction a result of a sofware update? sometime in Jan 2021
@@mauriceharting5877 the Chevy Volt is actually a remarkably good car, especially for it’s time. They’ve been quite reliable and most owners have had good experiences with the battery life. They were not overly expensive and have held their resale value well. Additionally, GM is backing away from *some* of the vehicles, but not the Chevy Bolt which has been their most successful EV so far.
I’m not as familiar with Ford as I don’t own a Ford EV. What I gather is yes, Ford is having trouble making their EV models at a profitable production cost. These companies have seen tougher times before, I’m confident that they will continue to improve their processes and be making cost competitive EVs at a profit within a couple of years and will succeed in gaining a decent amount of market share.
@@realestatenow The reason why so many used EV buyers want a Chevy Volt is because they are cheap and not because they are reliable. Used Tesla's hold their value much more ... that is a fact!
An Electric Viking Funk-o-pop figurine would be nice.
Can structural battery packs be repaired, or is it game over in case of a failure?
Ask your insurance company.
I guess it’s like anything, if it’s designed to be repaired, it can be repaired. I have rescued many Apple phones about Samsung is just about impossible, even though they are essentially the same thing.
Be smart. Charge between 40-80% for local use. 100% when absolutely need the distance, while using up the 20% extra right away. At 100% idle use heat swells batteries.
What's the battery chemistry on the European Stellantis cars (Peugeot, Citroen, Alfa Romeo, etc.)?
I think a big thing that's needed is open-source repair information for the batteries. I've read that Nissan has opened up information about the Leaf batteries, and GM is giving out repair information for their new Ultium batteries.
Good luck with Tesla's blackbox model that copies Apple's anti-repair policy. They want you to keep buying new Tesla's instead letting you repair it yourself.
@i6power30 -- I have a Bolt.
@@Davran2742 Me too. I had model 3 first, then sold it in 2022 for a profit, then bought Bolt. Much better value than Tesla, and rides more comfortably too.
Super dangerous backyard playing with high voltage dc?
@@dumpyosaurus6765 - Certain shops are already fixing Leaf batteries.
Banks are getting just as bad. Same with internet companies. Customer service is going down the drain.
How do I find a qualified repair service near me in Ontario Canada?
OK, where is a listing for "Qualified battery centers" by US State?
Only read about a handful of places even willing to try to repair these modern EV packs, and of those the feedback for the Model 3 seems to be even when they replace a entire module with a wear matched and identical attribute module, the way the system is designed it will rapidly fail again?
Where can I read about modern EV batteries being repaired successfully 3rd party, and specifically for the Model 3?
Would be good if some sort of standard existed whereby the battery/car could be instructed to run a test and produce a report on the state of each cell, etc.
Perhaps it could do this as a default setting every 3/6 months overnight, and postpone the operation if the user wants to drive the car, and give the user a message on the screen if they've got a bad cell. Could have an online marketplace for used tested cells to match the other cells' capacity. Tesla could probably lead that quite easily.
Can you repurpose the car batteries ( especially if only a few few cells or bank RS ) to use at home with the solar system ??
I agree reuse and repair can often be quite easy for someone who knows how to do it. One exception is structural batteries, taking those apart can be quite difficult. Although they can be recycled easily. There is likely more than one type of "structural battery".
on my truck (lightning) you need a lift and a battery stand, as well as some PPE (duh). That pretty much eliminates any DIY solution when the time comes.
Not much different than an engine out in one of these modern trucks. Requires lift = not diy friendly because no one rents lifts anymore.
First find out if there is a obd software for your EV like LEAF SPY or CANZE that can tell you the individual cell health. If there are only 1 or 2 bad cells then it makes sense to look into cell level replacement not pack replacement.
But if you look at the foam in Tesla batteries and the welded connections in BYD batteries, replacing cells is totally uneconomic. GMH & VW batteries (LG Chem?) however offer a much better repair possibility.
Hyundai's Ioniq 5 battery replacement in Canada has been 60,000 , several thousand more than the original price. Not confident on any company's battery replacement in North American.
I don't particularly like the idea of mixing cells of varied origins with old ones. Since all of the cells in a pack are typically from the same batch, one cell going bad may very well be an indicator that there are more than one latent sub-par cell in the whole pack and that your first repair could be the first of many. Likewise, since manufacturers don't sell their factory-new EV cells on the open market, your replacement cells are likely coming from packs of similar origins. And then you have the very high stakes should anything go wrong with the refurb. Insurance companies will likely get ticklish about how many times battery packs get opened for repairs should that become commonplace.
it’s like I’m mixing up all of the new OIL with old OIL in an engine. Not a good idea. I’d say
@@Anomize23 Where do you get the "new oil" when the manufacturer doesn't sell factory-new battery cells at retail? You have to gamble on someone else's discarded "oil" and hope the fraction you replace is in better shape than the fraction you kept.
It's all science, no magic anyone who knows what they're doing will probably replace with a similar State cell, it's more economical t o o. BMS manages the cells also
Hi Sam,
thank you.
A smart entrepreneur would be looking at this, setting up the appropriate infrastructure to repair, service, recycle and provide the options to potentially a growing industry.
Current ICE do exactly this, all the way down to wrecking yards.
Ok it's new technologies but so was ICE.
Great posts
MUXSAN does this in the Netherlands
@@sylvainsineux thank you, I wrote that a month ago, nice surprise.
Good video and an area that is not getting enough attention. We also have Sandy Munroe who pointed out fairly recently about a well know EV battery having "zero repairability". Part of the issue seems to be that we go from batteries that have very low degradation to a state where they suddenly can't be charged, and there don't seem to be official figures on how often this is happening.
Definitely would be good to be given the failure rate and longevity stats for batteries, this should be mandatory information collected by and published by the government. As an EV owner, I’d really appreciate being able to know for myself as well as be able to discuss and provide accurate information to other people who are interested in purchasing an EV. Right now without accurate information the fossil fuel industry is able to make wild and untrue claims to try and convince people that EVs aren’t safe or that the batteries are dying after only 5 years etc.
Another BMS solve problems like that!
@@sjsomething4936...also possible to prevent failures by the way...by charging the single cells individually.
Sandy Munroe Also regularly says you can have durability and longevity or you can have reliability. You can’t have both.
Teslas new unreparable battery is completely sealed making it completely waterproof. Removing the issue of it bursting into flames after being flooded with salt water. A major issues with lithium battery cars.
@@ecospider5 but doesn't the warranty explicitly exclude water ingress?
Can you do a segment on charging systems in areas for infrastructure focusing on utilities as the rate of charge requiring an area to upgrade the KW needed in an area to charge as the demand increases over time as more EV 's within an area increase and the draw compared to houses overloads the grid ? Nothing seems to be talked about the utilities being able to service the grid between residence and hungry EV charging within a area where you may live today .Let alone considering commercial needs.
Let's say a person drives 50 km in one day, then the car needs about 7-8 kWh.
The house may need 4kW 24 hours/day... Do these 7-8 kWh/day matter, I don't think so.
Many houses need 20 to 40,000 kWh a year, so charging ONE EV is marginal in all ways.
Electric utilities just have to upgrade their billing system so they can charge different prices per hour for electricity. Once they have done that most EV owners will charge their car when electricity is cheap. This actually helps stabilize the grid because turning off power generation when they are producing more electricity than can be used is really hard to do.
600v to 240v step down transformers, the ones you see on power poles are the only things that are really sized for how much electricity goes through them over a 3 day period. They need to cool down when power is not getting used so AC, new houses, and EV’s can cause them to overheat. But I have never heard power companies complain about selling more power and having to do small upgrades. Plus solar on the houses solves this problem because the electricity gets used before it goes through that transformer.
You don't even need to recycle the battery. just find the bad module/cell and replace it. 9 times out of 10 it is a weak cell disturbing the balance, reducing range. Sure labor costs associated with pulling the battery aren't cheap but you are pulling it anyway if you want to replace it.
Finding a place to do it might be a problem right now . There are only a few places that do this in the US I am aware off.
@@ctuna2011 you can always ask uncle rich for help
@@ctuna2011
That's because there aren't yet enough 10 year old EVs on the road yet to keep battery repair shops in business. In time, this will change, but it won't be instant.
Good advise.
Thanks for watching!
There are a number of software fixes for battery pack issues.
What do you think of solid-state batteries. Will there be many types and prices? I feel like Ford etc should be investing in QScape over SPower. Why so?
I think that the biggest mistake EV owner used to do is to always charge to 100%. That's the main reason why Nissan Leaf 1st gen lost capacity so much.
It had small range. so of course drivers would plug it in at any opportunity. A 80-100% top-up counts almost as much as a full cycle in degradation.
Second gen doesn't have the degradation problem because it's longer range and the drivers don't charge it as much.
My 2013 Leaf has still the full 12 bars at 70.000 miles. It's not impressive in isolation, but most Leafs lose 30-40% of the range by that point. I only charge it to 65%. 80% just in exceptional cases
Your charging methodology will definitely extend the lifespan of the battery by a lot, but the thing that really hurts the Leaf is the fact that it doesn’t have an active system to heat or cool the battery when temperatures exceed optimum operating ranges.
@@sjsomething4936 Everyone seems to repeat that, but I haven't seen any proof.. 2nd gen Leaf doesn't have any significant degradation issue, even without thermal management. Better chemistry, bigger capacity and less frequent top-ups is all it needs.
Excluding some very extreme scenarios, the battery sits within a reasonable temperature range even without active thermal management.
LFP loves 100% charge. It's only NMC that is a princess.
Even AC charging people tend to charge at max amps which is not needed. I calculated that the 60 kwh pack in a tesla only needs to charge at up to 20 Amps (240 VAC). 20% to 80% = 60%* 60kwh = 36kwh, 20amps * 240VAC = 4.8kwh, 36kwh / 4.8 kwh = 7.5 hours. So even lowering the car's charging amps at home can extend battery life and reduce heat lost and wear & tear on your home wirings.
@@chetsaxton1526 Tesla people prefer to charge at max available AC speed. Apparently at 7kw the onboard charger efficiency is about 90% and it goes as low as 75% for 2 kwh. In Europe with the overpriced electricity they don't want to waste anything
I have a g1 Honda hybrid - if you try to get to the battery you have the following warning - do not open - you will be killed. This is a tiny battery pack compared to those you'll find on Full EVs. Anyone even considering opening one of these for a repair needs to be very serious about their approach to doing the repair with full technical knowlege of the particular pack, safety features, proper resplacement parts, tools , checks - or they are risking their lives or the lives of the people who drive the modified pack - A Certification program is needed. If such an entity were setup. Safety could be maintained.
If black mass is so valuable why according to CSIRO and UniMelb, only 10% of lithium based batteries are recycled. The rest languish in storage before going to landfill with the rest of the other 90%.
If the lithium is being used for small devices, such as cell phones or laptops, it's not worth enough to be worth the effort of taking it somewhere where it can be recycled.
Not the case for an EV in a junkyard, where you've got tons of the stuff all in one place.
I wonder why no car makers tell owners to store there Li-ion cars at 40% charge. This is critical if not used for an extended time.
By the way: people who worked on the Nissan Leaf batteries and battery-electronics now work for Gotion high-tech and other Chinese battery manufacturers...because who does very good work wants to be treated properly and paid the best.
Guessing if you find a battery dealer that offers a trade in price, best to go NEW.
Kinda like a rebuilt ICE motor or alternator- lasts a limited time
I have a Ford fusion plug-in hybrid going on eight years now draining the battery twice a day and charging at least twice a day. I still can’t believe that the battery is working. Yes it lost a little bit of range but still that is a lot of cycles.
Have you seen what's involved in repairing a battery? It is a lot of work and expensive. 5 hours to pull the battery = $1,000, 5 hours to diagnose and tear apart the battery = $1,000. Nobody replaces cells, they replace the module, 3 to $4K. close it up = $500 - install and test $1,000. Factor in your time, car rental etc. and a 10 to $12K offer on an installed used battery starts to sound pretty good. You can always sell your used battery to recoup some of the cost, "WRONG" that was included in the price, your old battery now belongs to the used battery company. Have a nice day!!!😂😂😂😂😂😂
I've heard re-purposing to domestic battery application is probably more cost effective than reconditioning/cel replacement but can't find any companies doing this. Hopefully the talk inspires some action.
@@orionbetelgeuse1937 you could say the same for any company not doing something, the day before they started doing it but it doesn't make it true. I'm looking at 2nd hand Leaf batteries at 50% capacity (12KWh) for NZ$2,300. Add a fire-proof container + BMS & you have a domestic battery at a fraction of the cost of a commercially available one.
Cheers mate
I have a 2011 Nissan Leaf with 20 miles of range and 65,000 on the odometer. Car is near worthless. How am I wrong?
A HV battery repairer in Croatia? That’s handy.
Who in their right mind buy an older EV out of warranty?
I saw some Tesla expert say that Tesla batteries last 1,000,000 miles. That is 100 years of average use.
So much BS to do with the whole industry.
EV sales in Australia are 7%. Hybrids are outselling EVs 2 to 1.
Keep me out of this expensive experiment.
In 10 or 15 years they could be viable to own and run.
The cause of sudden battery failure is often the breakdown of weather sealing allowing parts of the electronics to corrode..
5:50 ... It's not exactly a myth but more that it's no longer true. When Tesla first started making the roadster and even the Model S the battery pack was in fact pretty close to 50% of the price. Of course now that battery prices have fallen some 80 to 90%, it's no longer true.
A decade ago a Model S with 240 miles of range was $80K. Today's has almost double the range, is far more capable and it's $6,000 less!
It is a failure of companies and it's very intentionally done
I believe Rich Rebuilds tried to fix his battery. I don’t think that went so well.
How much is it to recycle a ev battery in Australia? Give them a ring Sam. A previous comment on you videos, said he was told they charge you $2 a kg, and would not take a damaged battery. Ecobatt I think it is.
Perhaps EV manufacturers that do the best job of used battery support. Will have the most success with customer service. There is no reason why a company like Tesla should just leave their customers hanging. Think of the information would they be able to accumulate. If the batteries have value why are the EV companies not interested in buying back used batteries? The concept of best experience would be great to apply here.. I believe EV manufacturers are making a huge mistake in not warning their customers of used battery rip off. Of course EV manufacturers could wait until they're forced to do something by having a law passed to control their responsibilities. It seems to make no sense that EV companies are not helping with use batteries. What do others think? Thanks for this program ! 🙂
Sam - this repair issue is a general one ... basically true for all devices and your household. People fir example assume thst they need a new heating system for € 30k...when in reality they for example only have to replace an oxidation rod for €30 or an igniter or some other minor part.
That's why it is crucial that kids get a physics, a technical education and an education regardibg finances as well as how to cope with government administration and contracts.
Re black mass being worth $10,000 per ton (1:30), does anyone know if Tesla provides a credit based on this price for your old battery pack when replacing it with a new or refurbished battery? Or, can they just load my old battery pack in my rented u-haul truck so I can take it home and then have someone pick it up and pay me the $10,000 per ton rate?
Also, does anyone have any updates re Johnny Bacigalupo and Rob Hussey being charged a whopping £17,000 bill by Tesla to fix their battery - which they claim was "damaged by the rain"?
Lastly, re repairing battery packs (8:15), Tesla's latest battery technology (4680 cell-based battery packs) is not serviceable. Sandy Munro revealed this fact in one of his videos.
Yeah, I doubt anyone gets the $10k per ton rate. Sounds like a hassle to lug it home from the service center when they refuse to pay that much, and then you have to find someone who will. Bet it's not that easy.
Sorry, just saw the section on Gruber
I always throw away my tools after a year or 2 because they have a little wear and tear on them. If my tools are not at 100% they should go to the land fill.
That statement makes just as much sense as sending lithium car batteries to a landfill. It just doesn’t happen.
Hey Viking what your saying is not true in many ways as in a lot of cases unless you can get your ev at your own cost to a battery service Centre that knows and works on that specific kind of battery then your only option is replacement. Here in nz even for many evs including Nissan leaf there are only about 2 companies that offer a full pull apart of the ev battery pack and even by the time it’s pulled apart and cells tested, faulty cells found and replaced and then pack re assembled and re tested again and the fitted you can often be looking at 3-4K for the repair bill vs buying a whole good second hand battery even with a larger capacity for around $6k for example. As for packs being worth money, due to them being Dg dangerous goods class and super expensive to send around the country even to try to recycle and also companies charging a lot in nz to even take the pack in for recycling yeah your pack is basically worth nothing if it’s faulty or failed or removed from the ev with issues, and in some cases the owners are actually charged to send it away for the recycling cost. Keep in mind nz has to send packs overseas at high cost to recycle lithium. So you may want to get your facts right in your video otherwise it’s hugely misleading to many customers. As for people needing some skills to even open up and work on a battery pack remember these are all Hv packs so if you really don’t know what your doing and have a lot of training then you can easily kill yourself. Finding qualified people here in nz who can even work on these packs there’s literally like less than 10 people in our whole entire country so it’s like finding hens teeth to even get access to a person trained up and with the skills to do it but yet you fail to mention these things clearly in your video.
I'd feel better about replacing a battery pack if the option existed to convert my existing pack to a home storage solution.
I'll check back in 10 years and see how it's going.
There isn't a BEV I'd own yet.
Lease it…
@@IverKnackerov I have a perfectly serviceable 20 year old petrol with 37k miles on.
It's a 4x4 that weighs less than a BEV mini.
It can do 80 miles for the equivalent CO2 of 4 passengers in a week.
I'm not sold on the American dream of burgers, trucks and the world leaders in excess.
History will rip Tesla a new backside.
There is a random weird low rumble distortion
Northvolt in Sweden will be recycling batteries
Hi Viking, here in Germany, its 8"13 AM and its coold.
6 Degrees Celsius.
To the best of my knowledge:
- Tesla invalidates your free supercharging for the life of the vehicle (which probably applies to the majority of Teslas that are out of warranty), if you take the battery to a place like Gruber for repair. This is a massive disincentive to having the battery repaired rather than replaced.
- Tesla seems pretty aggressive about getting its hands back on your old battery, if you do have it replaced by them. I can't remember the number but when I got a quote for them to upgrade my battery, when I asked how much consideration they were giving me for the old battery (they did not include this on the written estimate), they replied I think in the thousands of dollars. (was it $10k? I wish I could remember). That is, if I wanted to keep the battery, that's how much more I'd have to pay. Something like that.
- I've heard that the repairs can be good, but might not last as long as one wants.
- side-note the warranty that Tesla offers on an upgraded or replaced battery is less than the number of years offered on the vehicle battery when new. If I recall it was 4 years.
Usually, a bad battery pack has some bad cells and the rest are still good. People will buy those packs and use the good cells for power walls and other things.
battries can be repaired, it may be just a cell/module or block that is defective and the pack could be repaired and rebalanced and gve many more miles life
Hmmm, is replacing a cell in a structural pack an easy fix? Did u see Munro on opening a structural pack? That was not easy... Other than that, mostly agrew
Recycling batteries is not new or unique to EVs. Lead acid car batteries are recycled at about 90%. That's why we don't have lead mines all over the place and why lead is still affordable. The battery in your car might have some lead in it that was mined in the 1950s! Modern batteries like the ones used in EVs have a lot of use and value even after they are too weak to be useful in a car. Many auto parts are refurbished and you have to turn in the old one when you buy one so it can be rebuilt. Refurbishing EV batteries is going to be a huge opportunity. There are shops that can repair something as delicate as an iPhone so I'm confident there will be tools and processes invented to repair EV batteries. Aftermarket packs with newer battery technology will also be great to see.
This is just one more reason many people are on the sidelines waiting for the industry to gain more maturity. We are used to long ladting vehicles that can acheive at least 200,000 miles with good maintenance. We also want manufacturers that will be around for the life of the vehicle. Today who knows which companys and cars will be around in a few years. The technology evolution also raises concerns about degradation in used prices due to obsolescence.
If too many drivers swapped their 'ICE' car for a battery car, unless they had their own big LTO battery at home with lots of solar to charge their car from overnight (instead of pulling from the grid) then it would be a big undertaking for the new power stations and increased grid power capacity. Denying nuclear, letting copious gas get sold out to foreigners' control, clowning around with big solar and wind farms is helping to keep the majority poor and lower living standards. I can sympathize with the occasional commercial battery bank for grid stabilisation. But my point is how many 'fast-charge' (still like 6x slower than petrol filling) stations can you have before it overloads local power? Even if the power is available for all the fast chargers, have you seen those vids from california of long queues of teslas waiting to use the fast charger late at night?
The scam shops that overcharge you for the battery will also charge you a fake toxic waste disposal fee
A guaranteed refund for a used battery pack from the car/battery manufacturers would be advantageous 😊
When they replace your battery they will probably add a core charge so they don’t lose money if you try to keep the old one.
I think they do not need the old battery because that would make them waste more money to recycle the battery. They might give you money just to keep your battery
That's if you charge it at 30_ 80% so only use 50% of the battery all the time .perfect weather 23 degrees. And you slow charge it all the time......that's what is good for a ev
For the vast majority of the time, when you're just driving around town, using 50% of the battery and slow charging all the time is all that you need. But, the other 50% of the battery and the fast charging capabilities is still there when you need it. Sure, using that capability wears out the battery faster, but most people road trip infrequently enough that it just doesn't matter.
NIO Battery Car Separation is the solution. Battery Swapp Stations. Cooperation NIO Changan CATL BYD Geely Volvo Polestar Stellantis VW for Battery Swapp Stations. No Battery Issues. Never.
Hi Sam. Love your channel. But please get a better microphone. The constant popping is becoming a real annoyance as I try and watch all your videos.
Thanks.
Keep up the good work!!
Thanks Mate!
I noticed that too.
The cost of a new battery per useable kWh will drop to $2 within the next 7 years. To type it in letters: two US dollars per kilowatt-hour.
And not only will battery packs become way easier to recycle while less energy will be used during the recycling process - single defect cells will be way easier to replace.
Replacing the entire battery pack? NIO already proves to have the best option for that. Doesn't seem so costly if you have to replace a battery pack of a car where it is way more complicated, time-consuming and costly...if you aren't short sighted. 😉
Yet at the current inflation rate increase they will still be far more expensive in the future.
Very Nice information.
More needs to view this video.
All the *MYTHS* about EVs are blown up, and this is what that is in People's mind.
It would be lovely if EV battery packs could easily be repaired and have a quality battery pack; but you'll find Tesla and others have no confidence in the work done by some independent shop. Poor work could result in a fire. In that case Tesla may literally stop you from using any of their facilities including charging. This is the main reason why people don't risk it and feel they must buy a new one. What needs to be done is have a certification system for battery pack repairs - then - companies like Tesla can probably accept the quality of the repair as meeting certain limits they would take a risk on. Insurance companies might also be willing to take on the risk of a repair vs replacement if a certified entity did the repair otherwise they do not know the risk involved.
Now I'm starting to wonder if battery swap is much much better than charging the batteries in the vehicle
It is. Chinese NIO has been doing it for years. It's time for Tesla to admit defeat and copy from the Chinese.
I don't think so, the infrastructure around it will be too expensive. Charging a car on a "road trip" is a real problem for a really small number of people.
If not even taxi drivers have problems with today's system, who are the people that are more dependent on their cars?
Most people stop for eating at least once a day, why not charge the battery at the same time?
@@leiflillandt1488 you forget emergency situations. Imagine you just came home from work with near empty battery and was about to plug in. All of sudden you receive an emergency call maybe an important business deal or a medical emergency for a relative in the next town. Sure you can call Uber or taxi but unless you are in a big city, it's still going to take 10+minutes to get to you. They don't happen happen often but life's important moments are often not predictable.
Maybe for commercial vehicles, but not for the consumer market.
Please fix your microphone problems. You are hitting your desk and transferring it to your mic.
Good luck finding someone to fix your battery pack. Maybe if you live in Fantasy Land.
Who’s going to buy your old battery and how does that matter?
I don’t have time to figure this stuff out, I need my car to work again tomorrow, I need it fixed now.
Battery repair or replacement when they fail out of warranty still means the end of a car, doesn’t it?
Except maybe for something like a Nissan Leaf, but still, that works only if you have plenty of time and don’t need your car every day.
There is a good video from ‘transport evolved’ about the issue of repairability, check it out. This plus charging network are major obstacles to EV adoption past the stage of ‘second car’ or toy car.
What do you think of batteries becoming ‘structural’? Isn’t that going to make them even harder to repair and maybe even change?
Sam have you seen what Ford are doing. Using natural gas engines
Years ago even your old car batteries could be simply rebuilt as long as the case was good , they were known as tar tops . I wish someone could explain to me in these modern times why we manufacture everything to last the shortest period of time and then throw it away, thats apparently how we save resources and become more environmentally friendly . We have Apparently got more advanced and way smarter than days gone by , well so the experts keep saying anyway.
So, who is actually recycling lithium-ion batteries? Repurposing then for home or whatever energy storage is one thing, but who really extracts and reuses the metals in them when they're done?
There an inverse relationship between repairability and reliability. Batteries made so they can repaired easily are usualy less reliable .
Why no criticality of Tesla's structural battery pack that has all sorts of components buried in hardened goo? Why no demands for more repairable pack focused architectures like GM's Ultium?
As the price of EV go down, they become more of an up graded Golf Kart. Nothing is getting cheaper but lowering the quality is.
I totally agree !
The biggest scam of all is what you mentioned towards the end -- DEALERS. If you take your out of warranty to a dealer you are the biggest fool of all. It is the very model of a dealer to scam the customer for all they can. Without doing that they can't survive.
Most people who know, reuse batteries, even old Nissan Leafs batteries, as home storage or other such uses. Never, EVER, take your out of warranty battery to a dealer who is just waiting to scam you.