How to Expand a Fantasy Novel That’s Too Short (3 Steps)

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  • Опубліковано 5 вер 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 82

  • @Jed_Herne
    @Jed_Herne  Місяць тому +8

    Join my free 5-day course to write better fantasy characters: jedherne.com/5-day-course

  • @user-yu6br7hl2o
    @user-yu6br7hl2o Місяць тому +46

    Yes, I would like a video about creating interesting subplots😁

    • @aix83
      @aix83 Місяць тому

      Use them to set up the turning points of the climax. How this/that element of the climax was earned and brought into the story.

  • @NateReadsDiversely
    @NateReadsDiversely Місяць тому +51

    *me, an underwriter, saving this video for when I need it most*

  • @Green-3c34y65vrbu
    @Green-3c34y65vrbu Місяць тому +28

    me, an overwriter: "making my book LONGER huh..?"

  • @corydora2894
    @corydora2894 Місяць тому +10

    I really apreaciate that you make your high quality advice available for free on youtube. I write as a side hobby and dont have money to put into my writing. After watching some of your videos i completely redeveloped a lot of my character plots in my novel, but i feel like I am a better author because of it.

  • @aurthurpendragon1015
    @aurthurpendragon1015 Місяць тому +9

    Great video. I just wanted to add that "Yes and" is valid to do sometimes as well, because obviously if a character never succeeds at anything then it will be difficult for the readers to root for them. Also, "No but" can be used too, because even if a character failed at what they were intending to do, it doesn't mean that there can't be unintended positive consequences of their actions.

    • @zacharybeste2961
      @zacharybeste2961 Місяць тому +1

      Failure is such an important character trait imo

  • @JarethDuLac
    @JarethDuLac Місяць тому +5

    Expanding a Novel is important, so it doesn't feel too short, but kind of feel not every fantasy novel needs to be a 600 page epic. There is still an important place for the 200 page, 50,000 word novel as well. Sometimes a quick read works better than a long drawn out story. But I guess the longer a novel, the more important pacing becomes. Especially towards the end, when readers might be starting to get tired.
    Still some good ideas, and things to consider for new and veteran writers.

  • @sarahsander785
    @sarahsander785 Місяць тому +1

    I will add a piece of advice from my experience writing my latest novel (which is a historical murder mystery, not fantasy, but I think it still applies): My plot was finished, as was my character's journey. But I had a word goal to hit which was around 10k away. I didn't want to go back and add set-backs to my character's arc, as it can feel quite boring and repetetive, so I took another angle. I improved on the villains arc. I put in a few scenes showing his backstory and how things led up to the crime he commited. Mind that all the indormation was already in the novel, as it was necessary to understand when, how and why the crime happened. But it was all packed into dialogue. What I did was adding in flashbacks, mostly after the dialogue that revealed the information beofrehand (so the reader won't get to much of a lead over my detective, but still receive bonus information).
    For now I think this worked really well (I'm a little bit afraid to her from my publisher that it doesn't work at all *lol*). I used the technique to make my viallin more relatable, as this is what I thematically want ("How guilty are you, if you're pressed into doing a crime?"), but I guess it can be used to show how bad a villain is as well and I plan on using this for my fantasy novel, which has got a net out of four contrasting villains with somewhat the same goal, but very diffrent motives.
    So yeah, think not only about your main characters arc, if you need to expand, but also you villain and even possible major side characters.

  • @Atypical_Typo
    @Atypical_Typo Місяць тому +2

    Hey, Jed! Awesome video as always! I'm currently workshopping a reverse arc for my MC.
    I was wondering, would you consider doing a video on what POVs would better suit a story? That and maybe how to create a Narrative Device.
    Cheers from Canada!

  • @TheBabyCaleb
    @TheBabyCaleb Місяць тому +4

    Thanks for the informative videos! You and Brandon Sanderson have been a life saver

  • @itzbeskar
    @itzbeskar Місяць тому +12

    I asked for a how to shorten my writing...and I got how to lengthen it

  • @vozzy06
    @vozzy06 Місяць тому +4

    Can you make one for overwriting?

  • @Dragonplayer13
    @Dragonplayer13 Місяць тому +2

    Fantastic. My story will be far longer and more meaningful now. Thank you!

  • @ElaaraWylder
    @ElaaraWylder Місяць тому +3

    Great advice, and some insightful solutions. Have shared this with a friend who has exactly this problem. Have taken notes so I can shore up some areas of my wip!

  • @AmbientCinematics
    @AmbientCinematics Місяць тому +1

    Abrupt 180 degrees of character change...not looking at you S8 of Game of Thrones *cough* Daenerys *cough*
    It makes me wonder what the books will/would be like...
    Thanks for the advice as always bro 😄 though I'm yet to write a fantasy novel, your videos help me with all the outlining I've got going on!

  • @shounenking313
    @shounenking313 Місяць тому +3

    I actually am planning to make my novel long asf you can say a francise. The first novel i wrote was a mini series but the second one which i am writing currently is gonna be long I myself dont know when it will end it could take years for it to end. The world is big, with power system charecters are also many. I follow kishotenketsu story structure. I think those who are planning to write a long story should follow this story structure its really good and might make your story memorable and enjoyable.

    • @sarahsander785
      @sarahsander785 Місяць тому +1

      I just looked into it (I can't believe I've never stumbled upon it, even while analyzing diffrent Japanese and Chinese works) and I have to say: It looks extremly promising for writing mysteries and I will try to use it as a guiding line for my next mystery novel and another fantasy project that I have that just doesn't want to fit my usual 4-Act-STC-approach. It's also very lengthy and episodic, which definitly can benefit from kishotenketsu. Thank you for mentioning it!

  • @elijahn8992
    @elijahn8992 Місяць тому +1

    Okay, I'm not the only underwriter. Thanks for the ideas

  • @MadHawkMoody
    @MadHawkMoody 21 день тому

    Oh thank you! I am having such a hard time with subplots and story length!

  • @genius2005
    @genius2005 Місяць тому +2

    The best writing in history use “and then”, what makes your story boring is that that you’re not conveying any real moral dilemma in every trial scene.

  • @alexanderworley5235
    @alexanderworley5235 Місяць тому

    This video was rather fortuitous, considering I've been stressing over a project that I was worried might end up too short

  • @AshAll3469
    @AshAll3469 Місяць тому

    This video came out perfect timing. I’m currently having this exact issue and have been contemplating ways to expand my writing. I have a hard time writing stories above 60,000 words, despite pretty much doing all of this. I liked the third step where you describe how you included in your book a subplot encompassing an inverted example of the theme. I’m going to try that.

  • @TheEccentricRaven
    @TheEccentricRaven Місяць тому

    I'm an overwriter but this is still helpful because I am not as good at character arcs as I should be. I love your template ❤

  • @moeburhanimeez7354
    @moeburhanimeez7354 Місяць тому

    This video came out in the right time lol! My novel's story turned out to be like less then a hundred pages which is no fun. Thank you Jed Herne!

  • @KootFloris
    @KootFloris Місяць тому +1

    THERE'S A FOURTH: like used in the Arcane series: behind every crook is a bigger crook, behind each conspiracy is a bigger conspiracy. Thus you need to change little in everything you wrote before, but plant hints to what comes after.
    Watch some TV series that gain an extra season, or making a sequel movie. They are forced to expand on what is already fixed. There are many lessons on how to (not) lengthen series.

  • @flame2055
    @flame2055 Місяць тому +3

    I would like to see that Subplot Video you mention

  • @Here.Me.Out.
    @Here.Me.Out. Місяць тому

    Hey Jed you’re one of my favorite writers and UA-camrs ever and I’m so grateful you don’t have any controversies unlike some of my other ex favorites

    • @unicorntomboy9736
      @unicorntomboy9736 Місяць тому +2

      I hope Brandon Sanderson doesn't end up doing something terrible, that would sting, as someone who once wrote an entire final year college thesis about him

    • @Here.Me.Out.
      @Here.Me.Out. Місяць тому

      @@unicorntomboy9736 I used to idolize him like a golden god and then I saw him tear down my community as I was fighting to marry my lover legally

  • @Enchanteexoxo
    @Enchanteexoxo Місяць тому

    How did you know I was struggling with this? 😂🤩 I have so much to do on my first draft (more like outline). Thanks Jed ❤ I love all your videos.

  • @GreenBlueWalkthrough
    @GreenBlueWalkthrough Місяць тому

    Great tip as for me I'm now the master of taking pages off when editing... Which while great when I need to pairee down my Table top game to lower cost and fit more content is a smaller package... My first self published book which had about a week of editing do to a deadline that I am making a second edtion of... Is well no longer a novel but firmly a novela instead... Which being made of short stories following the hero in a snapshot of his life where you just hang out with him and freinds. And the over arching plot that flow in a linar upward prograstion with breaks like an FPS game. I can only well and content that gives more context I can't add more events unless I can fit them in... But I think I'm ok with it being a novela as the books I'm currently working on won't be for sure... But this video has given me an idea... Even if I can't add more events I can add more dialog and discriptions to as I said add more context now I know that workld better... Still don't think I can pass 500 pages to novel territory but still. Thanks for the imperastion!

  • @user-eu6rf8lw6s
    @user-eu6rf8lw6s Місяць тому

    Your videos are so good, so informative and easy to understand and apply to my own writing. Very very helpful, best writing youtuber out there!

  • @CJGillies-n9s
    @CJGillies-n9s Місяць тому +1

    This is exactly what I need, thank you 🙏

  • @theuncoveredlamp
    @theuncoveredlamp Місяць тому

    I havent started writing my manuscript, but my gut is telling me i'm going to be way over the limit. Ive been writing a short story and im at 5900 words and only about 3/4 done and my goal was under 7500 words. I think looking at my outline no idea how ill keep it under 120k words

  • @fatimarizvi8401
    @fatimarizvi8401 Місяць тому

    Also make a video about how to shorten a too lengthy fantasy novel

  • @focusrelax8838
    @focusrelax8838 Місяць тому +1

    6:19 Mary robenette teaches this! Super handy!! See you follow her lessons aswell

  • @XavierSchwindt
    @XavierSchwindt Місяць тому

    This video is awesome! Jed do you think that some time you might make a video on how to shorten your drafts?

  • @chaco_kid
    @chaco_kid Місяць тому

    I would definitely love more info an how and when and what to do for good subplots as well as judging how may would be enough or too much. :D

  • @unicorntomboy9736
    @unicorntomboy9736 Місяць тому

    There is the option of just making it a novellla, which is what i am doing with my current gothic fantasy book.
    60,000 words isn't a bad length for a novel, in my opinion, i personally prefer shorter books. There is a novel i am reading at the moment, which is adapted from a video game, called Nier Automata: Long Story Short, which, for those unfamiliar, is a grimdark military science fiction book with a hint of a tragic romance subplot

  • @abhisheksharma3393
    @abhisheksharma3393 Місяць тому

    Can you please make a video on How to shorten it
    I've got lots of lore, back stories etc
    It's too long, please make a video on How to shorten it

  • @JackRook
    @JackRook Місяць тому

    I have anxiety about writing too much, so I usually end up writing barely anything

  • @PhoenixCrown
    @PhoenixCrown Місяць тому

    Maybe I missed this, but what is the "right" length of a novel? I think you got into this best in #1: The novel should be long enough that the character arc feels smooth, justified, and realistic. (The length of the book will depend on the arc.)
    The reason I ask--and want people to consider--is I feel like fantasy books are often unnecessarily long, and I would like to see more focused, tight stories.

  • @aratheonfantasyworld1514
    @aratheonfantasyworld1514 Місяць тому

    Question. I've been working on setting up a set of tragic scenes during a war in which the protag's closest sisters die, but the scenes prior to that in which I want to show their character and some minor growth in these side characters are really close with the protag. These scenes happen before the war that I'm building up to (Which is more just to set up the actual setting post war, since this book is more of a prequel to the main books), so there's not a lot of action aside from some minor drama between sisters. You have the funny character who's constantly arguing with the serious by-the-book character while the older sister who's the leader tries to keep the peace while the youngest is more obsessed with some of the boys in the village.
    However, I find that these scenes aren't boring by any means since there's still drama and I do still drip feed some foreshadowing about the main plot I'm building and these scenes show the relationship between the sisters along with showing the unique world they live in as they train to become the kingdom's special ops, these druidic rangers who can use nature magic.
    So a lot of the tools the protag will use and need to defeat the antagonists are displayed in these scenes along with showing some evidence of the big bad that the protag will eventually need to fight, along with showing the tension growing between the Queen and her son who eventually revolts, but they seem to lack action. The only real fight is while they're out on patrol where they find this giant obelisk that's appeared in the forest that's guarded by demons. They manage to fight off one of the demon hound scouts and flee.
    Do I need to put in more action? Because up until the war starts, it's really just easygoing, life is good type of scenes with some drama that's typical between sisters. Of course, these scenes will be offset by the other protagonist who is this thief and most of his scenes are of him with his two partners as they perform cons and heists in the rough slums of a big desert city. They'll finally meet at the end of the book (Since this is the prequel that sets up the actual series where their romance develops).

  • @arbitrarySalamander
    @arbitrarySalamander Місяць тому

    Thank you! This was very helpful!

  • @user-ik7jz7lp1q
    @user-ik7jz7lp1q Місяць тому

    This helped so much!! Thanks! :)

  • @hezekiahsimon3341
    @hezekiahsimon3341 Місяць тому

    Do you have a video on how to avoid writer’s fatigue

  • @StoicTheGeek
    @StoicTheGeek Місяць тому +9

    What’s wrong with a fantasy novel being short! I’m sick of bloated fantasy novels. The Hobbit is less than 300 pages and it’s a classic. The Weirdstone of Brisingamen is brilliant and it’s short. A lot of Gaiman’s writing is quite short

    • @umwha6271
      @umwha6271 Місяць тому +2

      Word. I’m about to give up on Stormlight because I just don’t care anymore. And I’m the dude who tells people to read Moby Dick, The Count of Monterey Cristo, Against the Day, etc. Bloat is an issue in fantasy right now.

    • @StoicTheGeek
      @StoicTheGeek Місяць тому +1

      @@umwha6271 100% agree. There seems to be a view that fantasy means series of 3-10 books, each 600 pages. But even where great writers of the past wrote series, the books were short. Think Lankhmarr books, Elric, Corum et al, Nine Princes in Amber, even the Earthsea novels. Writing more is not better writing.

    • @PadenBaggett
      @PadenBaggett Місяць тому +2

      Earthsea and The Last Unicorn are my go to examples to disprove the belief that all fantasy novels have to be 100k words minimum. Books need to be as long as they need to be to tell the story in the most effective and impactful way as possible. Whether that be with 100k+ words, or barely 68k, it's all about the best way to tell the story you want to tell, and what you want readers to take away from it.

    • @pernishkatehaswaytoomanypl8273
      @pernishkatehaswaytoomanypl8273 Місяць тому +3

      Oh my god exactly - I agree with your frustrations 😭
      It's a shame, but publishers have a sort of quota for the lengths of works that will give you a higher chance of your manuscript getting picked up. Sucks that there's a need to be formulaic like that, but for people that want to enter the writer scene and eventually sell, they have to adapt to these unwritten rules :/ not sure what the antidote to the trend would be

    • @feathercompressor
      @feathercompressor Місяць тому

      I sympathize heavily, as two of my personal rules are, "When possible, shut up" and, "Quit when you're done." I think the value here is that most authors are not very skilled and need help honestly evaluating the state of their stories rather than being told to be satisfied with a too-brief story that isn't properly developed. But if your story is better told in just 15,000 words, then do that.

  • @matthewsfamily900
    @matthewsfamily900 Місяць тому

    I'm trying to do a negative arc with a redemption arc at the end. In the beginning, he has the need. He spirals downwards and believes his lie and sought after his want. Towards the end, he regains his need and gains the truth. I'm curious to your thoughts on this method.

  • @CaelemSky
    @CaelemSky Місяць тому

    Holding out for a video on how to make it shorter now...

  • @MorgottofLeyendell
    @MorgottofLeyendell Місяць тому

    Please make the subplot video.

  • @authorjgamber
    @authorjgamber Місяць тому

    Loved the video. I agree with most of it. But... about that Yes But/No And thing, I don't know, I'm just not convinced on it. For one, it can feel too brutal or unfair to the character when they almost seem just unlucky. And take old TV shows, for example. The character(s) wants something, tries to get it, fails, end of episode. Next episode: same thing. It's a perfect formula that "works," yet you have absolutely no story. Nothing is moving forward, and the only real value is acting quality (if there is any), laughs, clever dialogue, maybe some action... idk, to me that's just not quite a story. And I know you were talking about character arcs, but I couldn't help but feel you were conflating that with story arcs. To me, those are very different things, and characters alone can't satisfy me.

  • @DesOttsel
    @DesOttsel Місяць тому

    Yeah, I have the opposite problem

  • @juandediosreyes8526
    @juandediosreyes8526 Місяць тому

    Hello. My underwriting lies in my character's not interacting with the enviroment. Since my story is about unrequited love, that can happen in any setting, I do not feel the need to make my charcters interact whit the surrounding objetcts, but I fear the readers will feel that the story happens in a void. Any suggestions? Thank you!

  • @VicPaganiTTV
    @VicPaganiTTV Місяць тому

    When it comes to Step 1, when you're doing a NEGATIVE character arc, a character becoming a worse person, or something going horribly wrong and going to shit, can anyone write an example of a Ghost, Lie, Want, Need and Truth?
    Mostly the Need and Truth, I'm not exactly sure how to modify these for a negative arc. Do I make 2 versions, to make a clear "could have been" for myself in relation to what actually happens?

    • @pernishkatehaswaytoomanypl8273
      @pernishkatehaswaytoomanypl8273 Місяць тому +1

      Sometimes you can merge the truth and lie into one - perhaps the character does "have a point" to their truth but the way they go about getting it is what makes them a villain. Not sure how best to explain it better, but perhaps your character wants (want) to be liked and their "need" would be forming connections, but because they are too far gone, they decide to mind control people into liking them. Something like that :P

  • @valentinaegorova-vg7tb
    @valentinaegorova-vg7tb Місяць тому

    Dear Jed, many thanks indeed! very useful, extremely motivating and inspiring! BRAVO!!!

  • @secretfirebooks7894
    @secretfirebooks7894 Місяць тому

    Maybe this is a dumb question, but why would it ever be necessary to lengthen your novel? I've read plenty of great novels that were well under 200 pages in length. I mean, so long as all of your characters have interesting development and your themes are well established, why does it matter what your final page count looks like?

  • @Beast_Crafts
    @Beast_Crafts Місяць тому

    I have a question and I hope you will answer it; Is it bad to have 1 story spread over multiple books?

  • @zuwenakelley2079
    @zuwenakelley2079 Місяць тому

    The ending is not always just a yes. Sometimes it's just a no.

  • @gowzahr
    @gowzahr Місяць тому

    "Earlier on in my writing career, I actually was a bit of an underwriter."
    I didn't know you used to work in money lending.

  • @Ant-so5eh
    @Ant-so5eh Місяць тому +1

    Great Vid

  • @elfcoder9226
    @elfcoder9226 Місяць тому

    Here to say I'm the thousandth like.

  • @nataschayazbek9028
    @nataschayazbek9028 Місяць тому

    Me, after outlining a novel and projecting it to be 70,000 after cuts, now writing it. New estimate? 120,000 XD

  • @jeidafei1165
    @jeidafei1165 Місяць тому

    I need the opposite 😂

  • @nevergiveup5939
    @nevergiveup5939 Місяць тому

    Why are we here in this life? Why do we die? What will happen to us after death??

  • @axelostlund2348
    @axelostlund2348 Місяць тому

    I would still like to play not chess.

  • @scottcrysel
    @scottcrysel Місяць тому

    Subplots? Yes please

  • @the_one6197
    @the_one6197 Місяць тому

    I'd really like a video about how to create good sub plots pleeease ( •̀ ω •́ )✧

  • @elchiponr1
    @elchiponr1 Місяць тому

    I would highly recommend KM Weiland on yt, for anyone who wants a more in dept and very well explained content on this topic and others