BATTLETECH: The Jagermech
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- The DRAMATICALLY underarmoured #Jagermech is the subject of today’s video. In #Battletech, there are few #mechs as unique, and as dangerous for their #Mechwarrior.
The #AFFS has a lot to answer for, for this design. Let’s talk about it.
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*I used one piece of fanart, that uses in game assets. That fan-art can be found here:
www.artstation... from Fokke Hassel
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#battletech #Mechwarrior #HouseKurita #HouseDavion #HouseMarik #HouseSteiner #HouseLiao #Battlemech #SuccessionWars #Mechwarrior #Heavy #HeavyMechs #HeavyBattlemechs #Jagermech #CatalystGameLabs #CGL #StarLeague #SLDF #JM6 #AFFS #ArmedForcesofTheFederatedSuns #FederatedSuns
Note: I am not associated with the Battletech / Mechwarrior IP, and create this under fair-use. Ownership of the Battletech IP resides with several companies at this time. I support all official releases.
The Jagermech stands out on tabletop in my mind for one reason. I witnessed a player attempt to position his Jagermech on a high rock to get good field of fire. He failed his PSR on the dangerous ground, and fell on it's back. The ensuing damage punched through the paper thin rear armor, causing a crit, which detonated the ammo housed inside.
No enemy fire was involved.
This literally made me laugh out loud.
People claim that I'm too harsh to some of these mechs, in general I try to be generous, but some of them are yes, really that bad.
@@BigRed40TECH It was the literal mech embodiment of the Bad Luck Brian meme.
I had a Hollander do that in the PC game.
I heard an explosion in the distance, and after the battle, Hollander parts were in the salvage.
I never even saw the Mech.
I had a Catapult one shotted by an Excali due to ammo. But no one calls it a bad mech. Shit happens.
LOL!
You wanna know the most bafflingly annoying flaw of the Jagermech, as an AA platform (at least in the original FASA design)? It can't torso twist, making tracking its intended targets (aircraft) significantly more difficult. The redesigns fix this flaw.
yeah it's a great reminder that building a better war machine is harder than it looks.
@@eddapultstab2078 You would think that one of the first things you'd consider in an anti-air platform is to ability to effectively engage aircraft. Sure, the Rifleman couldn't twist all the way around either, but that thing could flip its guns around to partly compensate for it. The inability to torso twist means that you can't effectively keep maneuvering aircraft engaged.
@@z3r0_35 which is why designing a warmachine is harder than it looks. The jeager mech suffers from, As tex calls it, teething troubles. It's anti air package is quite inferior to not only the rifleman but also the partisans quad ac 5s at the same weight(edit I meant 80 tons, my bad) at almost a third of the cost, which would be the real competition as a AA platform. Ironically, the rifleman, jeagermech, and partisan are all kallon industries designs. I think secretly, the jeagermech was intentionally marketed to Davion due to autocannon fever because DAKA.
Torso twist, or the lack there of, is often a very confusing thing. Several old designs lacked it but then put it back in at some unclear point in time. It's hard to tell what's more up to date and what to trust.
For no torso twist.. look no further that the Yoe men 🤦
Notice how in some of the art if you remove the JagerMech's shoulders/arms it looks kind of like an UrbanMech trashcan? I feel that this is fitting.
You can fit an Urbanmech in this trashcash. Trash attracts trash.
The Jagermech is the perfect counter to an advance of Urbies armed with AC20s.
Jagger mech is an urbie but as a teenager.
Then as an adult it becomes a annihilator.
Urby's big brother
The Jaegermech is just 2 Urban mechs in a trenchcoat
MechWarrior: Commander, can we get the rifleman?
Commander: we have the rifleman at the base.
The rifleman at the base….
Ruthless. But true. XD
" Mom, that is NOT a Rifleman!"
Disgusted 8 year old face...
@@patrickkenyon2326 arguably better than a rifleman as long as you dont shoot it, shout at it, or think angry thoughts in its general direction.
@@Colonel_Overkill I have found, if you take off half the armament, and replace with armor, it becomes a decent medium Mech.
I can answer the question Davion wins with the Jagermech as Fire support/antiaircraft by fighting in RCTs. So in a battle where a regiment of mechs 3 regiments of vehicles five regiments of infantry two aerospace fighter wings and a battalion of artillery. In a fight at that scale Jagermechs as fire support tend to survive as there are just too many things to shoot at then the Jagermech. It’s a large scale Battletech.
The FASA design art makes it look like an urbanmech wearing a jetpack
It's like an Urbanmech, in so far as it has the same armour as the Urbanmech.
But x3 times the ammunition.
So it's like an Urbanmech, but if it could explode.
@@BigRed40TECH Explosions make things BETTER!
You just described the Hornet.
One of my most favorite long range mechs! It's just too bad my ai allies in Mechwarrior 5 aren't smart enough to actually also use it effectively without getting both arms blown off after every mission 😤😤😤
Best idea is to remove its weapons and armour and stock it up with more ammunition. This will help it.
Yeah, without TTRulezAI they just try to brawl with it. Modded to carry 4x AC-5s, however, and piloted by a competent AI or a pilot, it's a beast of a fire support platform.
That also happens with the Warhammer and other mechs.
Oh man i fucking feel this the ai just walk in a straight fucking line at the enemy and then complain that they are taking too much damage
i recognized the suicide charges, and glued two ac 10 to mine, it never dies anymore since its now a sawed-off mech gauge doubble-barrel shotgun
Swap the light AC systems for two AC/10's and more armor and you have something worth owning. The lack of torso twisting is still an issue.
It no longer lacks torso twist. :D
And then it's just a Rifleman-3C. lol
"Gentlemen, how do we improve the Rifleman?"
"What if we remove everything actually good about it?"
"That's so stupid, it just might work..."
It didn't work.
The Federated Suns somehow wins all these wars with Mechs no one in their right mind would pilot.
@@BigRed40TECH maybe they won because nobody thought to include countermeasures against these madhat mech designs in their combat plans and therefore never prepared for them.
Mechwarrior: "Commander! My battle computer's not giving me a firing solution against the enemy Jaegermech!"
Commander: "That's because nobody's fool enough to use one in combat."
Mechwarrior: "Well I'm looking at a fool nobody right now!"
@@BigRed40TECH Bah, everyone knows they win all those wars because of plot armor.
@@BigRed40TECH
Hmmm... could it be that no one takes these mechs as salvage? That would allow them to salvage them themselves after each battle, and this field larger armies of bad mechs.
Perhaps the jagermech is relatively good if you have 3 of them shooting at each enemy mech from maximum range...
The two glaring issues with the Jagermech and this often crops up on the table top game and the Battletech tactics game, is the fact it's a 65ton mech with the armour of a 45 ton mech, moving at the speed of a Heavy. It is slow, poorly armoured and rarely are battlefields or deployments are favourable to this mech and when they are favourable, all it would take is medium armed with PPCs on the opposite side of the open field to take the mech out in a couple of shots to its legs. I got one of these early on in HBS Battletech and it took extreme levels of tactical genius to stop it getting owned by the AI mechs while simultaneously trying to bring it's tremendous firepower to bare to core target marked light and medium mechs. You want at *least* 8 Hexes between this mech and the opponent mechs at all times and prey the opponents don't have more AC2s and PPCs than you do. If they have gauss rifles, just don't bother fielding this thing, the gauss rifle will strip it's armour in a single shot while simultaneously punching through criting internals.
If you want good fire support, bring an Archer or a Catapult instead; Same weight class, better mechs for the job and they can safely hide behind things too. The Jager is only good verses Aerotech fighters and you rarely encounter those even on the table top.
Look, this mech is generally reviled but I love it. I had a character in a MechWarrior campaign that used one like an Omni mech, buying several and making the arms modular with different weapons systems. One fight I may have been using a couple LB10xs, another fight I might have a huge bevy of machine guns, another would see me loading an AC20 and SRM2s. My opponents never saw the same mech twice in a row, and I went undefeated in 7 fights before my unit had to actually go back to work. Good memories of this Mech, only love for it.
I actually have s softspot for the Jagermech, it was my first heavy mech in the HBS game and it worked well, a little rejigging and extra armour does wonders
May be a worse rifleman but there’s something about the design that makes me like it.
It should be 2 large lasers 2 Ac2s 16 heat sinks and 4 more tons of armor.
Name
I REALLY love the missile version of this baby. The JM6-A variant.
Sure, it's made from reinforced tissue paper... but good luck exploiting that, when 30 missiles a round are slamming into your torso from behind terrain. And if you have direct line range advantage, you can pelt with the AC2s, too. With proper placement and support, it's a nasty moving turret that can just reach out and touch basically the entire field.
Even so... the Awesome LRM variants basically do the exact same tactic, but for just above 1 million C-Bills more you get a large laser instead of the AC2s AND more armor AND a battle fist AND a small laser AND almost TRIPLE the amount of heat sinks, so unless you're on a budget, you probably should go for that one. And that's the oldest variant, the AWS-8R. The still pretty ancient AWS-8T variant has TWO large lasers, and still almost all of the above.
Still... as long as its used for the sort of garrison slash anti-air slash fire-support duty it was intended for, I do think the Jagermech isn't bad, per say. It's just... a very humble moving turret, that was commanded to go smack people in the face way too much, because The Inner Sphere lost their dang minds for several hundred years, and barely had sticks to smack each other with before The Clans forced them to at least partially get their act together.
Visually, the Jager is one of my all-time favourite mechs, especially the excellent MWO art. Whenever I actually use one in say the HBS Battletech game, I *always* remove the AC2s, add a bunch of armor, and put in two more MLs. It's not flashy, but at least it works!
I put in large lasers and heat sinks, my fire support mechs almost never get into ml range
try 2 clan lpl's in place of the ac2's and double heat sink ( replace ac2 ammo with hs)
You missed the critical role the jagermech fills for the entire inner Shpere: as an example for other mech-designers how not to do it. This thing has no place at the frontline imo. The rifleman isn't perfect, but at least useable, unlike this contraption of ecplosives held together by detcord and ricepaper.
If only they somehow removed the autocannons, but added mroe ammunition in their place. That'd really make the Jagermech a success.
@@BigRed40TECH yeah, as an ammocarrier for real Combat mashines or as a banzai-mech... Like these katien-torpedoes used by the IJN in the 2. WW 😅
"contraption of explosives held together by detcord and ricepaper." ... I thought that was the Commando?
Jager. We solved the poor battlefield staying power of the Rifleman! And all it cost was an incredible flaw in battlefield staying power.
Inner Sphere progress at its finest.
For a mech that appears in Capellan space it mysteriously doesn't appear in my forces , the Imperialist Davions can keep them . At least a Blackjack can defend itself and has more armour
The Jaegermech is really just a heavier worse Blackjack.
You play as a Capellan and admit it?
@@mikewaterfield3599 Hell yeh Space Communism all the way , we have universal health , universal education and pensions . And if that doesn't persuade you then we have Plasma Rifles , Guided Missile Artillery , Stealth Armour to persuade you .
@@mathewkelly9968 ah huh, that "universal education" didn't teach you space commies not to get your teeth kicked in by every other power including periphery states cause you guys apparently could not read the "no trespassing" signs to your galactic south. Even five hundred years in the future some people still have yet to figure out. communism only looks good on paper never in practice.
@@BlueberryFruitshake I think the capellans had a surplus of auto cannons and needed something to put them on.
I love the JagerMech in MechWarrior 5! Sure, it isn't that strong for its tonnage and there are plenty of better options to put in your hanger, but taking the default JM6-S and removing the AC/5s and adding two more AC/2s, dropping the medium lasers for small lasers, adding a total of 4 tons of ammo and now having a max of 10 tons of armor while never having to stop firing is oddly satisfying, especially when a group of Warriors spawn in and start flying over to my Lance.
I did the same. limiting the AI's armament options seems to help them too. I park that thing on a hill in a warzone mission and the armor on larger mechs melt.
I kept the original feel and downgraded to 2x light rifles + 2x med rifles. Perfect for AI. When it shoots things just open up.
@@TheInsomniaddict I've done something similar on the A variant before. Drop both AC/2s for light rifles and spent the saved tonnage on more LRM ammo, fire control systems for both LRM-15s, and upgraded the medium lasers to medium pulse lasers!
Even on tabletop I feel like the Jager would be better served by quad AC/2 and more armor. Compared to a pair of AC/10 you're doing less than half damage but with Medium Range modifiers when the 10s would be at long or ineligible to fire at all. It's also twice as many chances at criticals if someone else has done you the favour of putting holes in the enemy's armor.
It’s a shame I really don’t like this mech, because my god I love looking at it. It’s boxy and intimidating. I connected with the franchise with the Battletech PC game and I would love to field them in good faith in that, because it looks so good, and I actually like AC/2 in that because they can be lethal in quads (especially UAC/2s) for headshots if I want to do some shopping. But if it gets hit, it normally dies quickly.
I can see why it’s designed like this from a game design perspective - something that slams the target with so many AC shots at that weight class would be horrifically unbalanced. It’s a glass cannon (almost literally!)
But in-universe? WHAT WERE THEY EVEN THINKING?!? WHY DO THIS?
What? You don't want a Rifleman that does less damage, and is packed full of ammunition, so it just explodes upon taking any meaningful damage?
@@BigRed40TECH hahah! 😂
@@BigRed40TECH In this economy, it's not so bad sounding. CASE isn't for the pilot, pilots are cheap. CASE is for maximizing salvage.
Honestly, I don't see the point of AC/2s or UAC/2s, unless you really don't have the tonnage or heat to spare for anything better. However, LB-2 Xs are great for making VTOLs miserable, and Light AC/2s, once those become available, are light enough that it's actually sorta worth considering using them on some mechs.
@@z3r0_35 yeah, I’m a newbie to the TTG, but in the Battletech computer game they are excellent (I’ve found, anyway) for sniping enemy ‘mechs in the face and walking away at the end with some pretty decent salvage, if you are lucky enough to pull it off. I’ve had some minor success with them in MW5, too.
They seem to be a weapon that the computer game struggles to match up with the TTG, though; I agree, they seem a bit pointless in that - they perform relatively well on the PC, which feels like a mismatch. In the computer game they seem adequate - on the tabletop they are pretty much worthless.
That said, I should clarify that sniping enemies in the face with a lucky headshot is only really reliably possible in large numbers, and that is *all* I have found that they are good at. That’s why four UAC/2s on a jaegermech works pretty well - you have shot saturation, which massively improves the chances of pulling it off. As you say, they are rather rubbish weapons overall; they just don’t do enough for the tonnage. Even then, they are on a mech with spider-levels of armour, so you have to be incredibly careful!
The JM6-DD, the tech upgrade that made this a clan fighting mech. They dumped an XL engine into the design... and somehow squandered all of the weight savings without addressing the mech's biggest issue: the thin armor. 2 tons to upgrade the AC5's to ultra. 2 tons to upgrade the medium lasers to pulse. 1 ton of extra AC2 ammo. This mech could of gratefully taken 5 additional tons of armor and been better than it was even without weapon upgrades. If you truly need to make this mech use next gen weapons then strip out the AC2s for ER Large Lasers and dump in 10 double heat sinks in that XL engine. Or rip out all of the ACs and replace them with Gauss Cannons like the JM6-DG.
I love that they made it even less survivable than the original.
@@BigRed40TECH I'm just going to go into round 2 on this rant, because its suppose to be an effective mech against the Clans. Really? Seriously how? The AC2 has the same range characteristic as the ER Large Laser and the clan version hits 5 times harder than an AC2. Sure, it runs hot but Clan double heat sinks can easily manage the heat. ER PPC has even better range and damage for only slightly more heat and weight.
The Inner Sphere can't compete in long range shootouts with the Clans. The Clans just use better ranged weapons. All around better. The main factor that lets IS mechs compete with Clan mechs is using terrain to avoid long range engagements. Once you get within 9 hexes the IS can fight effectively. The IS is still at a ton for ton disadvantage, but this is as even with Clan technology as you are going to get.
Standing a Jaggermech or anything else that is a dedicated long range poker up against a Clan Mech is just asking to have it cored long before the opposing Clan mech even feels threatened. Trying to use IS pulse weapons against Clans just seems unlikely to be effective as well, unless you have superior movement and lots of cover. The range disparity is just bad.
@@Chris_Sizemore ambushes are what you can do with it. Have it be bait, with it keeping their attention as long as possible leading them into a city or (preferably) a mesa.
Honestly, about half of the 3050 updates were just bad. The tech was applied in a manner in keeping with illiterate children or primitives given a box of new toys. With that being the best, yeah, thats part of why the Clans went through the best tech of the IS.
@@tenchraven Clans were also predominantly fighting non-upgraded units. Most of the turning points in the invasion were where the IS had numbers, elite warriors, and fully upgraded regiments. You're right though that many of the designs are pretty bad. Still, they were an upgrade over whatever was previously being used, with exceptions (eg Grasshopper).
Ah, the JagerMech. A Mech on the 'light' side of being a Heavy Mech. And one that should have been made 10 tons heavier to allow for a better design overall. But, that is just my opinion.
Used to love playing this with quad ac2 on MWO years ago just because of the sound.
Yeah I've always like the Jagermech, I love ACs, and if its used correctly its a solid machine. Only an idiot let's it get into close combat.
Dump the lasers and add 2 tons of armor
I still say replacing the ac 5s with large lasers and using the free 4 tons per guns and ammo to heat sinks and armor is a better set up. it will have some minor heat issues but it would be much more survivable. also replacing all 4 with ac 10s is also better
Funnily enought, i got the JMS-6DD variant in MWO, gave him two UAC 20 and plenty of armor. Since any ennemy thought I was a long range plateforme with paper armor, they went close, specially light mech. Pulverising them was pretty satisfying.
In other situation, positionning and staying behind friendly assault and heeavies is a pretty solid strat.
Not a perfect mech, but he can be nice, even surprising, sometimes.
Can we all just appreciate that hasn't been a better soundtrack for a mechwarrior game than mercenaries?
I really wanted to like the Jagermech, but the only way to to make it good is customize the load out. I removed the ac2 and medium lasers in favor of 2 large lasers more heat sinks and armor
So you turned it into a slightly lighter rifleman II?
It's a decent loadout all things considered, But why not just use the Rifleman II at that point?
This comment is meant to be snarky, but all in good fun.
@@Cha-Khia I have never played table top so I use what the Batteltech video games gives me to work with.
A lot of the "why use x" questions are answered by "because its what we have", which is sort of what makes battletech great.
IS Rifleman - Where is my armor and heatsinks?
IS Jagermech - Where is upgrades from the IS Rifleman?
Rifleman IIC - Why am I living proof that second line battle mechs are often overlooked by my fellow clanners?
Great stuff as always, the Jager is a...curious egg. I mean you can sit up the back and plink away with the AC's at long range, rationing that you've got enough ammunition to basically take shots regardless of the chances. But this all falls apart if you take a hit, because this thing is a glass cannon.
All it takes is a couple hits to one of those torsos and you've got yourself some fireworks.
It's not really a glass cannon - more a glass pop-gun . . .
MOTIVE HITS. MOTIVE HITS. MOTIVE HITS.
Yeah its got some insignificant anti-mech firepower, but this thing has the RANGE and can stay relatively cool while crippling hovercraft, tanks, vtol etc
Don't ask the thing to do stuff it doesn't want to do, and it'll treat you right ❤
the jeagermech isn't that bad in concept. the real issue is designing it around 4 auto cannons. the biggest lvl1 upgrade is to replace the old cannons with 2 ac 10s and add armor from weight saved while improving damage. another good change is to replace the 5s with large lasers and adding heat sinks and armor to compensate. the base model is crap, I agree, but their is alot of room to customize.
Problem with the 2x AC10 is the same as the Rifleman variant that does the same: it attempts to "solve" its shortcomings by completely ditching its intended role and putting it in direct competition with mechs like the CPLT-K2 Catapult or other superior medium range direct fire support mechs.
@@EvillBob to be fair, the 65 ton chassis is one of trickier weights, in addition as I mentioned the mech suffers from too much auto cannons in my opinion, it needs to remove one set and put that tonnage elsewhere, missles, lasers and armor. I mean if you want really weird, their is quad ac 2s and you can put the extra tonnage to armor and ammo. Make it a turbo blackjack.
I think this mech answers the question, "what if we made the Blackjack bigger?"
Why anyone asked that question? I assume drugs were involved 🤔
Design is clearly flawed as a Frontline mech, a role I believe, it was never intended to perform, as the urbanmech is a coffin on legs, in open terrain, the jagermech is a defence oriented mech, intended for guarding landing zones, HQ and so on. A very special purpose mech. I played the tabel top game for 10+ years, I never fielded it once.
Lol tell us how you really feel, Red. Seriously though, this is an honest take on an objectively bad mech, and while you are harsh to the design, I think you're fair in all of your criticism. Keep up the good work.
I held back the real venom. lol
Nice video, I binged your playlist up until now as a new battletech player! Would love to see a rundown of say, Comstar, or mercenaries.
I'll see what I can do.
Everything you've said is regrettably true. The Suns fell down on this one, a rarity for them. Valkyrie? Sturdier Wasp with long-rage capability, good design. Enforcer? A burlier Clint that can run and gun against heavier mechs, good design. Hatchetman? A ground-breaking Medium brawler, good design. The Jagermech? Inferior version of Rifleman that could lose a 1 on 1 duel with a Valkyrie, bad design. It was one of the few mech designs my old merc unit would not consider using.
FedSuns: Hey guys good news we have fixed the Riflemans armor issue! How? Well we just removed the rest of it.
Im new to the Battletech universe with my only exposure being the video game with the cool Heavy Metal expansion cover.
With that as my backstory, I must say this video saddens me.
The Jagermech was my first heavy after 1 lucky headshot in that one story mission (cant recall the name).
It has been with me ever since.
While it was eventually phased out for significantly better mechs, it remains in my hangar for pure nostalgia.
And it looks freaking cool ^.^
Every Mech has a story.
Don't let anyone tell you yours isn't worthy of respect.
I remember the time I lost a Dragon to a Cicada...
It does look freaking cool.
I managed to solve the armor problem with my MW 5 Merc company's refit of the mech. Twin LB 10X ACs, Twin Light rifles and twin MP lasers. Up gunned and up armored but carries a very low amount of ammo especially for the light rifles. It doesn't have the endurance for missions that drag on and has shorter range than stock. Over all,mixed results,sweeps away lights, mediums and aircraft but has trouble with mechs of the same weight or greater.
Yeah honestly I never likes ac/2s in general. They have their niche but I'd rather have an ac/10 even in this, yeah ac/2s solve the heat problem and it has ammo to last but I'd still rather have the large lasers as at least the Rifleman can't run completely dry on decent range weapons. I think it fares much better in games like mwo or mw5 where the ac/2 is more useful but even then I can't pass up a dual rac 2 rac 5 build because, well, imma ork and it's yellow?
Honestly AC/2's could be given an easy gameplay fix to rub out its tonnage penalty and enhance the long range focus :
medium range penalty +1tH; Long range +2tH.
AC/5 could be given a +3tH on long range.
yes it Monkeys with a basic game concept, but hey, diversification and all that.
@@dwwolf4636 I'm not super knowledgeable about tabletop so not sure it's balanced but I felt they should have some type of stat effect unique to 2s and maybe 5s. like a penalty to movement or free reactive shots if they hit something that turn. something to make up for the pathetic damage output even if it's not amazing.
To balance weight and damage in tabletop, AC/2 should roll on the 5-hit chart when attacking... AC/5 and AC/10 on 2-hit. Heat generation and ammo consumption to match the number of shots of course.
I think the Jaegermech suffers mostly from the fact that light autocannon (ie, AC2s and AC5s) just plain suck. Too much weight and too little firepower in one package and the Jaegermech is carrying FOUR of these things. Even before the introduction of Double Heat Sinks and other advanced tech, the AC/2 and AC/5 are introtech's lemons.
If the Jaegermech dropped all of its ACs for a pair of PPCs, it'd have 14 tons (plus whatever weight is freed up from the ammo) for heat sinks and extra armor. You'd get half decent protection and increased firepower while still being able to stay cool.
I have to wonder what the designers were thinking when they designed the AC/2 and AC/5. In a design system where you have free heat sinks with every mech being heavy and cool running in no way compensates enough for doing so little damage. Video games solve the light firepower issue by giving the lighter ACs higher rates of fire, but that explicitly doesn't exist in TT where a "higher rate of fire" would just be a straight up damage buff, which in turn would make the AC's classification non-sensical..
There's an option rule set for Solaris VII duels that didn't catch on. Hexes were changed from 30m to 10, and likewise time was changed from 15s to 5. Light autocannons could fire every round other weapons couldn't. There's also a modern optional rule "Rapid Fire" which can allow mechs to take a gamble to get more shots out.
Beyond that golden BBs especially in level 1 are very useful. Aerospace has to make a control roll in case of any hits while vehicle movement crits are common. Special ammo is also fairly useful and precision helps a lot for level 1 builds post SWs.
AC/2's get a bit better in combined arms... but not really on Mechs. A smallish Tank with a pair of these suckers can be pretty awkward to deal with, and damage is damage, especially if it's damage that goes to whatever wants it the least.
Consider a pair of AC/2 against an AC/10... the 2's medium range is long or out of reach for the 10. Dealing only 40% damage most turns balances out with the better weapon missing most shots outright. The weapons are right scary late in battles, where every hit against exposed structure is rolling for critical damage. You can't outposition an AC/2, whichever of your mechs is the most at risk is going to be peppered with hits.
In tabletop I kind of feel like the AC/5 is the ugly duckling, with no decisive range advantage over much more damaging options like large lasers, PPCs, and AC/10. Ultra AC/5 does a lot to set that right of course.
@@jonbezeau3124
Agree.
While the AC/2 probably has the most obvious weaknesses of the four, it has a decisive niche.
The AC/5 is pretty plainly redundant. It is right in the middle of the competition between some of the most standard and competitive weapons in the game, and it really needs a lot of outside conditions to pull ahead. Even then, the AC/10 is usually still better in those conditions, unless extreme weight considerations are in play. The L Laser in particular, with some extra heat sinks does more damage, with better ranges, is more heat neutral overall, doesn't carry ammo, has fewer crit spots, and is STILL overall lighter. You really need a situation where the low absolute heat generation of the AC 5 matters, like on something with lots of jets and M or S lasers.
That said, I do think the LBX 5 is probably my favorite LBX. Losing the big chunk of single target damage of the AC/20 defeats the entire point, and it's still a big loss for the AC10, and the LBX 2 is one of the most puzzling weapons I've encountered, but the LBX 5 hits that sweet spot of not giving up the big chunk of damage, but really benefiting from the other perks of LBX. I still sometimes have a hard time picking an LBX over missiles, but, meh.
Haven't tinkered with Rotaries yet, but I imagine the Rotary AC5 can do terrifying things.
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 AC/5 has same range as PPC, LL has same as AC10. Larges are generally better than AC/5, but without double heat sinks AC5s do have some use. They're very heat efficient for the damage they put out, which makes them a generalist weapon. Generally you can use them when a PPC is too hot but you want more range than an LL.
They're meant for mech builds where bracketing isn't going to be used. Eg, as soon as you have the heatsinks to fire 4 MLs, use a PPC unless you need that extra 5 pt damage.
I like the Jagermech for fire support though I keep this very, very far away from the frontline. Preferably with a bigger distraction to draw fire away from it. Preferably a Marauder II. Because I like to hear my ears bring when I pull the trigger on those Autocannons.
The frontline doesn't want to keep away from u though :P
FF Armour and CASE are a Godsend for this unit.
700th like. I love the cockpit shields. In MW5 I own a rifleman and yeah,it over heats. I want a jaggermech just cauz. 5:34 looks like Jagger is just Urbanmechs crazy uncle.
About the best thing I've done with this is a variant with dual AC10/BFs. It's a murder machine. A second one has quad AC2s. Nice for fire support.
But next to the Rifleman it lacks versatility. Also its arms get easily shot off. That's a problem. AND its armor, or lack thereof, and its lack of hitting power. It's an unworkable compromise inferior to the mech it's supposed to replace, which with a few tweaks can be turned into a terrifying opponent. Riflemen I hate fighting because they stand off at range and pelt you with Large Lasers or shells; Jagermechs can be destructive at close range(two of them shredded my Awesome once that way) but at range their singular lack of punch is telling. Also their wide torsos and easily seen cockpits are huge targets: the mech is effectively a walking bull's-eye. When facing multiple mechs, I tend to shoot them first.
A purely AA and rearguard mech in my opinion, staying in the backlines protecting bases and landed dropships, not for the frontline in the slightest. But I would suspect it is the Bane of all VTOLS, Light Aerospace fighters, and Light bug mechs it will come come across in it's rearline duties
Except when it first released it couldn't twist it's torso. And it's so full of ammo that taking any damage is rolling the dice on becoming a sun on the ground.
From experince, bug mechs will take a Jagermech one on one. Sprint in, get inside the effective range of the ACs, and keep moving while you slap it apart. Stay to the sides and the rear and those poor MLs will never touch you.
@@tenchraven People keep forgetting it has flip arms for rear firing due to lack of hand actuators.
No torso twist means it can struggle to hit air assets, and its armor is genuinely low enough that it has to be concerned about the VTOL it's supposed to be dealing with sauntering over to blow up its ammo.
In MW5, these things are significantly harder to fight then a Riflemen because they can engage you at further ranges with AC/2s and the head doesn't stick out like The Riflemen's so headshotting it is way harder. The profile of the guns are also smaller so disarming it is more difficult as well.
All of this means you need to somewhat concentrate fire onto a Jaegermech to put it down via volume of fire till it breaks, or rip its legs off, and they are most commonly deployed in groups of two.
Love this thing in MW5. Kit it with four AC/2s, and you can shoot about as fast as you can click. Deletes air units, deletes terrain, and if you can track an enemey's head for about 3 seconds it'll delete most mechs too.
Jack in the box, Jack in the box,
Quiet and still.
Will you come out? Will you come out?
Yes I will!
(*for those who dont know when a tank explodes and the explosion of the ammo bursts through the top that is called a jack in the box*)
Who wants an Ammunition explosion? The Jagermech does!
Counterpoint, the AC-40 BoomJaeger will never not be funny
This was the first heavy mech I got in MW5 I fell in love with it and bout another one the missile one so I had the AC one and would snipe with it and my friend was in the missile one but now I’ve replaced it with 2 warhammers
This mech is nearly a death sentence.
What do you mean nearly? XD
Some designer probably seen a rifleman and said "I can do better" and then didn't, and then because it was his creation couldn't see the problems or admit to them.
Jagermech in my mind appears to be a 'mech that works very well in some lore senses.
It excels in Anti Air which is a role that is important in lore and would prevent a lot of shenanigans they could do.
It also does well in asymmetric warfare. The glass cannon approach works very well for bullying lighter weight classes and at far - potentially even giving the ability to completely negate incoming damage all together.
Not to say this is the perfect mech design in the world for these jobs (after all you can argue a Rifleman that swaps AC/5's for AC/2's for more heatsinks covers a lot of the same basics and it boggles my mind this isn't a field mod or factory variant already. Alternatively dropping a large laser for ammo and things... that and Blackjacks also exist) but there are areas in setting where the mech does make sense and justifies it existing as long as it has.
The DD is a step in the right direction (personally having the medium pulse lasers stay as medium lasers and using those 2 tons for armour would've done wonders...) but I am surprised lore wise we see a lack of any of the advanced technologies going directly to improving it's survivability but I suppose this is because of the 70 ton variants filling that niche.
um later on in the timeline, there is a jagermech III, it solves some of the problems, with a different engine, that weights half a ton, less, and gets rid of the AC5s, replacing them with PCCs, not needing to have ammo, also saves weight allowing it to have 9 and a half tons of armor. also i think the different engine is faster, maybe, has a speed of 86.4km. it still is a XL engine tho so lost of the side torso would kill it, but it is an improvement. : /
This is a good volume imo! ty!!
Using a 6s in MW5 currently and having a blast. Gave it some endo and ferro slapped a bunch more armor on with the saved weight and with a double bin of ac5 ammo equalized my rounds between ac2 and 5. Great pinpoint damage that can quickly core or leg mechs and amazing at taking out vtols. Give me a lance of these refits an I'll show a clan star what's up in the inner sphere.
I know it's not great but I have a special place in my heart for the Jaegermech, especially its variants that add RACs. A dual RAC/2 Jaeger might not do a lot of damage per shot, but oh boy, can it fire a lot of shots.
That said, that's only from a BTA3062 standpoint, which operates differently from the tapletop.
The JM-6S does have _one_ single advantage over the Rifleman, the dual AC2s can be loaded with AP for some nice assault hunting and the fact that the AC5s carry two tons of ammo means that if you so choose you can swap one of those bins for flachette if you really hate infantry and woods hexes, AP if you're fighting stuff with particularly heavy armor, or AA if you really hate fliers.
Still worse than the Rifleman overall but I think that the Rifleman only carrying one ton of ammo for the autocannons is somewhat limiting not only for lack of specialty munitions but also since it means that ammo becomes an issue somewhat quickly whereas the Jagermech doesn't really have that issue. Of course the Rifleman can torso twist and the Jager can't unless you're playing with the redesigns so that's a serious bummer.
Say what you like but the Appearance of the Jager mech in MC2 was great
If they wanted to make the rifleman better, they should have given it quad ac2s, twin small lasers, no more than the stock ten heat sinks, two tons of armor, and as much ammo as can fit from there.
or just make a new version of the Rifleman that weighs more (to be fair though a lot of the issues of the Rifleman stem from it being used in frontline combat when in reality it should be fighting aircraft, where its issues aren't really as bad)
The JagerMech in one sentence: Well, you tried, A for effort.
The only good thing about the JM6 is that it led to the JM7.
Here's what I don't understand: the Archer, the Warhammer and the Rifleman all came from the same source (Macross), yet the WHM and ARC are 70 but the RFL is only 60. Why? I feel that many of the Rifleman's problems would be solved with those extra 10 tons, although I confess I haven't tried to build one.
Rifleman is half decent imo. But I expect it's that way because Mechs are flawed. :)
The earliest mechs were initially designed under slightly different build rules. From what I remember mechs didn't get the 10 free heatsinks, weapons heat was different, and movement had heat curves. It's why in the first novels the Locust is described as constantly overheating while Marauders slinged PPCs effortlessly and Riflemen were consummate badasses.
In the HBS game I use the Jägermech JM-6A as a heavy recon/spotter/interdiction 'mech. Here is what it looks like.
*Weapons:*
- 4 x Inferno++ Missile Launchers
- 2 x Flamers++
- 1 x Medium Laser+++ or 1 x ER Medium Laser
- 1 x TAG++ (Optional: Another laser per above or 1 x Medium Pulse Laser)
*Equipment:*
- 4 x Jump Jets (right torso, left torso, legs)
- 1 x Gyro++ (-30% Stability)
- 1 x Cockpit Mod++ (Rangefinder is an option but dangerous as you'll see)
- 2 x Double Heat Sinks
- 1 x TTS+++ (+3 Accuracy to Missiles)
- Optional: 4 x Arm Mods (So long as they are 0 ton); 2 x Leg Mods (also 0 ton)
*Armor:* Maximum Armor (With this load out you'll be over by 0.39 tons so deduct 0.13 tons from the three rear armor facings. You're gonna need it!)
*Pilot Skills Preference:* Stats maxed in Gunnery and Tactics, specifically Multi-Targeting, Sensor Lock, Master Tactician
*Tactics:* The Jägermech leads the lance as heavy recon/spotter. On movement to contact the pilot sensor locks the lead target for an early hit (hopefully you have long range assets to do it with). Jumping to medium range with the lead enemy 'mech you can _entirely shut it down_ with the Inferno Missile Launchers. Ideally doing so to the most dangerous 'mech in the enemy lance. But regardless, it's 25% of the enemy lance taken offline for 1-2 turns. You have the option to target either the other 'mechs with your one called shot or knee cap (or headshot) the shut down 'mech with the rest of your lance. Remember all shots vs. a shut down mech are called shots. Using the TAG accelerates damage by 20%. If the enemy fires first, you may be able to effectively neutralize two 'mechs at a time by shooting two and running their heat to nearly shut down so they're forced to use only their lowest heat generating weapons, if any at all. As the scenario matures, you may even shut down two or even three at once using the Infernos and the Flamers. Hence the pilot's need for Multi-Targeting ability. Note a human opponent - and sometimes even the computer - will ID the Jägermech as THE primary threat once it shuts down a mech. From then on the Jägermech becomes an absolute drek magnet. (The rest of your lance is safe so long as it's up.) This is why the pilot should be a Master Tactician so he or she can go a round early. ALWAYS jump max jump for those 4 precious movement modifiers and use cover when possible. Try to keep it out of walking range except for shots you know will shut down the enemy. Otherwise they WILL physically attack. Be sparing with the laser as even it will overheat the Jägermech after a few turns. Keep a strong mech with lots of medium/short range firepower close by to take advantage of those shut down mechs, soak enemy firepower and watch the Jägermech's back. Note that if you can't get the "best of the best" weapons and equipment to mount, even the average versions will be severely difficult for the enemy.
*Pairing:* I like to pair this 'mech with Marauders because their Lance Command Module doubles their odds of hitting a called shot. Preferably 3 x Ultra AC2s for maximum range and hit probability. (35% chance of hitting the head for a pilot with the max gunnery attribute!) With skill you can sometimes take out one or more of the enemy lance using the Jägermech to sensor lock them and use the Marauders to pelt them from outside their range envelope.
*Weakness:* This Jägermech design's primary weakness is the limited ammo. Once the Inferno missiles are gone it's neutered and the Flamers will be out sooner than them. Also, Jägermech arms are weak even with max armor. If the BT universe was real I doubt any faction would use this as it's only good for one or two firefights.
*Alternative 'Mechs:* This load out can be roughly duplicated on the Griffin, the Catapult, the Stalker and some Cyclops variants. Though each has their differences. You can't mount a Gyro on the Catapult and have the lasers. The Griffin is faster but it lacks armor and you must sacrifice one or two weapons or equipment. The Stalker and the Cyclops are slow. They can't carry Flamers though one variant of the Cyclops can carry an extra Inferno rack or two and both can carry additional weapons and armor.
I would run the DG model: two Gauss rifles with two medium lasers.
I don't like the Jaeger mech! It doesn't do much against mechs and Is ugly however this mechs ac2's does shredd aerospace so it does have a purpose compared to some other bad mechs like the urbie hut still not a fan
I remember using it for a few missions in the Battletech video game. It was often underwhelming and didn't pull its own weight (literally). It was also very vulnerable if it got hit at all. I used it because I felt like I needed a heavier mech, but it was quickly replaced in my roster once I got something with more punch.
In the PC game, I found 2 Blazers to be workable.
Honestly, if you go frankenmech on this thing, it's not the WORST mech imaginable.
But... that's more because of its tonnage than anything it actually does.
In the basic model it's terrible. In the LRM configuration it's pretty decent.
In my alternate 3050 configuration, it's kinda scary. Drop the AC 5's for PPC'S, make the Heat sinks double and add one (22 HS capacity) and add the rest to armor. Now it's scary.
Jäger is one of the coolest looking mechs in the franchise. Shame It's just an AA platform kekw
best part of this mech is you can tell what they were drinking in the design that was a larger rifleman that can't torso twist
Edit: hold up, they made a heavy that has ammo explosions have so little armor that a medium could core it or a Jenner could scratch all of its armor with a lucky roll? And somehow it does less dakka then the rifleman? I was joking about the drinking, yeesh
5:18 *pause*
When a Guillotine and a Ubry love each other VERY much….
Kinda looks like an urbanmech with more guns strapped on.
Just started using the Jagermech in MWO, got that XL260 engine, x4 UAC2's and two medium lasers for point defense. The amount of ammo this thing has is awesome. With your 65 kph ish speed, find a hill or dip and use your high mounted auto cannons to deal quick bursts of damage to mechs out to 900 meters and then drop back before they can return fire. Rinse and repeat. When sustaining too much damage to a side torso, simply twist the opposite torso in front to spread damage. With the XL engine and light UAC's Im able to put decent armor, and make a durable enough mech for trading at range against bigger but less manuverable targets. Plus with the projectile speed of AC2's hitting faster mediums is easy as well.
A factory Jager is disappointing, as a mercenary with millions of bills to use, its become a useful tool in my long range arsenal
Custom mechs for MWO aren't quite what my videos are referencing when I'm regarding their performance to be fair.
@BigRed40TECH of course. I agree that I don't see any use in using one on the tabletop. I'll stick with close/midrange heavies like the Marauder and catapult for my Lance's core firepower
Funny enough; though i never was a big fan of the Banshee; I was a big fan of the Jagermech.
The horror.
A lateral subvariant news by the Davion guards is kind of fun because of the twin gas rifles but yeah this Mac lacks longevity
House Davion has left the chat.
i shouldve seen this before buying a DD in MWO, buyers remorse sought in immediately
What i see in these video series on this channel vs comments is Tabletop/Lore/Story vs what people can edit with Mechbay in Mechwarrior/Mechcommander games... depending on personal customization many Tabletop-Shit mechs can be not only good, but some even godly designs, and few of those Tabletop-Solid prized mechs in story and lore can show their mechbay limitations.
In short ...if you can customize and make it work to degree you like it = mech is good ...many people can't or lack ideas and this is represented by Tabletop "Balance" and it's all fine and good building of setting, i'm just surprised is there no Mechbay for Tabletop or shit?
I would say mech customization in Btech proper is expensive. There aren't actually tons of custom mechs running around in every unit, typically only important people can afford to do it, unless we're tlaking Omni-mechs.
My friends and I mostly play stock mechs, barring extended campaigns, because stock mechs are what is in Battletech 99.5% of the time. But people are free to play how they like.
This channel approaches these designs with the idea that 99.5% of the units that walk out of the factory, are going to remain stock, indefinitely.
It's a glass....nerf cannon that is somehow also slow. Slow clap designers, slow clap.
I honestly think its better then the rifleman, I've never seen a rifleman actually be effective but the UAC5 equipped jager rips things apart.
In mw5 i pair these qhen im using a gauss to snipe as the blackjack does slightly more dmg at around the same range but over a more broad area so i use them to attract aggro while i line up headshots, able to keep the lance out of most fire ranges and just pepper an area clean, able to keep.missions cheap
I only played a Jagermech once at a friend's house. It was a variant which was basically an advanced tech rifleman with two er large lasers and rwo ultra ac-5.
I prefer the Jagermech over the Rifleman any day of the week. It has range advantage and can sit at the edge of the board pinging opponents and crit seeking, while the enemy ignores it because they think it is weak. Most engagements last no more than 15 turns, so ammo isn't an issue and heat is definitely not an issue. Add to that a low BV value and it's an excellent support mech for brawlers.
The Rifleman can deliver some hits that make people think twice. The Jagermech does not. :(
They call it the Jagermech because that is what the designers were drunk on when they made it 😂
You eloquently expound all the Jagermech's flaws. But I still like it (just needs some love at the mechbay, which I know is not lore)
I think it's a hilarious mech, I'm not hating on it because I hate it. I've just gotta be honest with people about what this thing is, lol
I get the weird feeling you don’t like this Mech…….
What gave you that idea? lol
In MWO none of these flaws affect this mech, then again in MWO its all about playability and making 💰. That's why now in MWO lights can go toe to toe with an assault and win while only mounting mgs and the smallest lasers.
That's always been kind of the case though. In TT, find a large assault that can't flip arms and then chew apart its back.
this is why I run mine in MWO with quad LRM 10. can't poke holes in the paper armor if you're too far away to fire at me.
*Worse Rifleman? Don't you mean a worse blackjack.*
2:35 wht does the fasa design look they put an urban mech between 2 sides of an awsome
I was just thinking why not make it with 4 x AC 2s? I remember using it so much from Mechcommander Gold as it was one of the starting mechs but trying to use it on Mech 5 I found it hard to use, but with some mods and popping an AI in it, they can quite effective long support/anti aircraft/vehicle mechs ^_^. I did find AC2's quite effect on BattleTech, especially with the black jack jumping to high ground and pop off shots!
In MW5 I spent alot of time in the JM DD variant with quad tier 5 AC/2 BFs. With all the DPS upgrades installed.
Rapidly chain firing is awesome and is a experience to have for any mechwarrior!
Look at the map, get the lay of the land find the sweet spots. Hills with good fields of fire mid to long range from your objective.
The guns are mounted high on the platform. it's tank like, allowing for hull down positioning, hiding most of the mech behind a hill just poking the guns up high enough to fire. When done right your target profile is very small and from range very
almost impossible to hit. Making it very dangerous for anything inside it's effective ranges.
Positioning is key with the Jagermech.
It's kind of like a bigger, badder Blackjack.
And by "badder", I mean it's worse in every way.
But it's a hell of a fireworks specialist.
I agree with your assesment though there's one variant that i like, and that's the AA variant , because i was able to downgrade theLRM-15's to LRM-10's or replace the LRM's with a pair of SRM-6's and put several tons of extra armor on her. As for the AC/2 it carries, i know how you feel about those but i personally enjoy firing the burst-fire cannons i put on one of those.
“What if we made a BIGGER Blackjack” you mean
Incredibly rare? Somebody hasn't played MechWarrior 5. I can't get away from the damn things.
In universe the JM6-A is rare. :)
@@BigRed40TECH I know that. Don't make me batchall you. I'll do it by Kerensky!
@@aragos32727 I don't accept your Batchall.
@@BigRed40TECH you dare refuse my batchall! By the Falcons claws....
I kid I kid. I'm a Capellen. Like my knife? Hey... Look at that thing behind you... 🗡
@@aragos32727 Ironically, the other houses have betrayed people more than the Capellans do. It's a really weird reputaiton for them to get.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't trust them. But I wouldn't trust ANYONE in Battletech.
8:05 "6 Rocketlauncher 15s", because being able to maintain your firepower doesn't really matter when you can take down an assault mech with your opening salvo. Talk about good bang for your buck
Oh yea, I didn't trash talk the Marian model. It has some good properties. And has armour.
The most unfortunate one. I would even pilot an Urbanmech over one of those walking coffins.
It might be a coffin, but it's a 65 ton coffin.
I don’t know why people hate it so much. It’s so fun to shoot at this thing.
Oh I don't hate it. But I gotta be honest about it.
"At"
Rip off the Medium Lasers for another two tons of frontal armor, and let it mag dump all four ACs all day. Works just fine.
Honestly would use a k2 catapult instead.
For some reason I have always had a soft spot for these things. For context I have my "scout group" of an Omega and 5 Ares forming a level II so they are a bit lighter than normally preferred. As a dedicated AA or even extreme range annoyance they are great. Just be careful as harsh language will occasionally kill one...