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Rule of Two Abandoned: Why The Sith Failed
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- Опубліковано 10 тра 2016
- Our friend, the non-canon expert, discusses why the Sith failed at the end of Return of the Jedi and how this may play into the approaches of Supreme Leader Snoke and Kylo Ren concerning the Force.
"I look forward to learning how Luke, Snoke and Kylo Ren look at these philosophies" - Ouch, that gotta hurt. :-(
"I don't care what Galaxy you come from that's gotta hurt!"
Yeah... that didn't age well.
There was so much potential for Kylo Ren, especially with the Acolytes of the Beyond from the Aftermath novels laying an ideological framework for him, but the two directors both had a radically different and constantly shifting vision for him. He never should have destroyed his mask, and his killing of Snoke should have cemented him as a true Sith Lord in the eyes of the Dark Side of the Force.
oof!
@@jagnestormskull3178 sith is a religion not anything more, for someone to be a sith they have to learn under a true sithlord
@@darthtator3549 In Legends, the Dark Side of the Force anointed Han's son Jacen with the rank of Darth after he killed his mentor, a pretender to the title of Sith Lord. Ben Solo should be just as worthy of the mantle "Darth Caedus" as his Legends counterpart.
The rule of two is the longest game of telephone ever played
Lmaoo
“What will be interesting to see in ep 7 8 9 is the philosophy that fills the void…”
Me from the future: “ohhhhhh ohhhhhhhhhhhh”
Answer: "Nothing!"
@@ionryful Yep pretty much
Yea let's just toss out the old empire and introduce the new one. Totally not reconning the whole destruction of the first. New one hre and ready to go. Ooops snoke died. I guess mini vader is gonna have to... sigh... well ... So how about that republic thing? Starwars suddenly got really fking borning.
It's kind of heartbreaking, honestly, seeing all the excitement fans had and all the interesting theories and in depth speculations being discussed across the internet. It genuinely got me hyped to see Star Wars be brought back into the spotlight like that. Guess that was a bit premature.
@@kostaspassias3815 right? Such a rich universe fucking wasted
The greatest weakness of the Sith is selfishness. This was why large Sith organizations fail because each Sith cares more about their own power than group. As a result the Sith can't trust each other and the group had little cohesion with treachery and infighting as the result. The biggest threat to a Sith is not the Jedi but other Sith. The Rule of Two partially solves that problem but does not eliminate it. Every Sith is selfish and given the chance would try to stay in power forever. The Rule of Two can't ultimately work because it requires the master to unselfishly care more about the Sith Order than himself and to never try to cheat the system.
that's the point of the rule of two the master has extreme power and the apprentice wants to obtain it so they fight in a deathmatch and who ever lives get a new apprentice and then that apprentice fights the master that way every successive master is stronger than the previous
Exactly, and if I was a sith not all that keen on dying for someone else's cause, I would make sure that my apprentice at all times was weaker than me by one method or another. As stated above, the Rule of Two requires complete selflesness in a group that draws strength partially from selfishness.
You have to acknowledge *fear* when talking about Sith weaknesses. They act irrationally or foolishly when the inevitably cling to something so much (usually immortality or earthly power/Force knowledge) when they find themselves in a situation where they could experience loss.
+B DeWit I feel as if, Darth Vader was the wisest sith of the order. Reasons for this is simply the way he speaks, in his one liners, you can tell his experience. Furthermore, unlike sidious, Darth Vader knows control, he isn't jumpy for power like sidious. Also, due to constant pain from his wounds, and build of his suit, overtime Vader achieved a great sense of self control. Lastly, as when he was a jedi, he already was used to immense attention that many sith crave for, thus making himself more competent with self control when he became Vader. These things combined created not your regular sith, a new form in a sense. This is why he never overthrew sidious, and advebtually reverted back to a jedi. This is also why Kylie ren probably loves Vader, due to his great control within himself.
Austin Vanderheyden
Good observations, I tend to agree. It's interesting however that Vader's fall to the darkness was largely due to his naivete. Once he had learned of Padme's death, everything probably became much clearer to him; the plot to convert him probably came into focus, and he realized he'd been fooled by the Emperor... but the damage was already done, so he resigned himself to doing the Emperor's bidding and biding his time until the moment he could possible take revenge on Palpatine for essentially ruining his life.
Vader is an enigma; incredibly wise but also very naive (pre-suit, at least)... I'd expect this out of the "chosen one".
There is always one greedy bastard that has to ruin it for everyone.
+Prophet's Bane Who could have guessed you wouldn't be able to trust a couple Dark Lords of the Sith. Thank you for watching PB!
+Prophet's Bane Isn't that the definition of the Sith?
That is so true. XD
hi poo
who you talkin about fool
Zannah: I have surpassed you, Bane. Now I am the Master.
Bane: Then prove it.
Those two were real Sith. Be like them. Don't be like this guy...
Sidious: Unlimited... POWAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!
But Sidious is a Dank Lord of the Memes
You mean "The Senate: Unlimited... POWAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!"
@@fristnamelastname5549
Sidious gets denied:
"You are on this council, but we do not grant you the rank of Senate."
"It's treason, then."
*Sidious takes out his lightsaber*
"Take a seat, young Senator."
*Sidious puts lightsaber away and sits down*
You little shi-
Well in Palpatine's defense, the master was already long dead and he already was the reigning Sith Master.
The Rule of Two is inherently flawed in itself. So risky. So much could have easily gone wrong. Just one duel where both master and pupil die and the sith are extinct. Or die through anything else. It wouldn't even necessarily need to die both, if the master dies with only a young apprentice...
Also the asssumption that the sith would get stronger and more powerful with every succeding master and that these masters would care about Bane's idea of the sith is naive. Especially considering they are sith. They do what they think is best for themselves.
Exactly. If I understand it right, the dark side is about individuality, passion, and ambition. Twisting all of these traits to support the grand plan is a feat in of itself, and assuming each new sith would somehow be convinced that the rule of two fulfills all three, every single generation, is ludicrous.
So many other ways the rule of two can go wrong as well. A single line is so risky I can't even comprehend how Darth Bane expected it to last until the grand plan was carried out, and honestly can't believe it somehow managed to. Obviously that's in universe. More meta: I can't believe the writers thought I'd believe it :P
I agree. I can think of several systems that still embody the dark side and encourage the development of strength without threatening to easily wipe out the Sith every generation.
I mean, c'mon, even philosophical deviations aside, all it would take is one master having an early heart attack before he finishes teaching the apprentice and massive amounts of Sith learning and history would vanish. I guess there are holocrons as fallbacks, but much safer to either
A) several master/apprentice pairs that operate independently or
B) have a society where there are lots of sith but they all fight to reach the top. As long as there are enough Sith, strong contenders will constantly emerge but there won't be enough deaths for them to die out because weaker sith would be cautious until they were sure they had gained enough strength. This has the added upside of allowing weaker sith time to train and become stronger or work for the stronger sith and it makes the society harder to assail as well. The sith used to be this way and I'm not sure why they stopped, the warring formed a strong sith empire that threatened the old republic and the jedi.
danaphanous
The society thing has the problem of the weaker ones banding together against the strong ones. And on this point I agree with the idea of the Rule of the Two.
But I think the first possibility is a good one and I already thought of it myself because it's a simple but solid solution.
Just make something between 3-9 sith teams and spread them over the galaxy. I mean there is more than enough places to go and they won't be getting into trouble with each other until a late phase of the plan. Have them meet every 25 years or so and tada. Problems solved.
But the thing is rule of two succeeded. As the only one. It preserved the Sith for a thousand years, created the most powerful Sith to ever live, destroy the jedi and Republic. The only reason it failed was some bullshit prophecy.
Think about it this way though, each master tries to become as powerful as they can, while raising their apprentice to be extremely powerful as well. They would want their apprentice to become very powerful because while their apprentice was serving them they would be the master's asset - thus making the master more powerful. The only issue is when the duel (or murder) took place and the master was replaced by their former apprentice.The way I look at it is like you maxing your stats in an RPG, then taking a noobie under your wing as a partner. You want them as powerful as possible because it will help you, but eventually they could kill you and take everything from you. So yes it is a double edged sword, but it does benefit both outright in its own ways.
After hearing how the last three Sith masters behaved, Vader seems benign in comparison. He strikes me as someone who'd go along with the Rule of Two or at least behave in a fairly honourable fashion for a Sith Lord. He's brutal and tough but honest. If he had managed to depose Palpatine and become Emperor, he'd have reformed the Empire and eventually created a new order of Sith that would emulate his teachings and produce someone who could take his place at some point.
Vader had that Malgus dog in him.
I feel he would make Luke into a formidable apprentice if he had managed to turn him.
ah, the rule of two. a rule meaning one shuttle accident could wipe out the order. lol
Pretty much
If a Sith master and apprentice were so foolish as to both be destroyed in a single moment, let alone an accident, then they would inevitably lead the Sith to ruin anyway with their arrogance and ignorance. Any weaknesses exploitable by the Rule of Two are exactly why it exists, to continuously push the Sith to always be stronger than the past. All deaths have a cause, and most of those causes would more quickly kill a weaker Sith than a rule of Two Sith.
Just Some Guy Ok as long as the force wants balance then there will always be evil/sith
Epic problem here is this thema ! This show always a top of hearcy. If you look star wars movies you always see there is several sith users and this is correct. They trained others to be sith warriors or sith assassins. Also Palpatine force D. Vather to train Equisitorium.
If you look this in proper view you see that 2 top Sith (or Darth Siths) are more then shielded and very hard to get in position to stike or kill them.
There will be always a dark force users and power users who find a way to use or teach dark powers like sith holocrons.
Rule #2: Sith must always ride in separate shuttles.
To be fair, being murdered by your apprentice so some dude in the future can rule the galaxy sounds like a stupid concept.
🤣🤣🤣
@B Why For the order it works, yes. But why would anyone want to be part of the order if thats the game plan? Especially the self-serving Sith?
Considering the semi-inevitability of master-murder, any sane sith would choose to be the last of the order and have a multitude of goons much weaker than them, rather than a student who will surpass and murder them.
Each sith thought themselves the end of the line.
@@2MeterLP According to your definition of sanity... Accepting the Rule of two is accepting sacrifice and death for the good of the order... It is paradoxical, because the Dark Side can be used to achieve immortality. But the purpose of the order was to produce more powerful and wise Sith Lords, destroy the Jedi and rule the galaxy, not to live forever, isolated on some rock... The Jedi code also demands sacrifice and acceptance of death, well I know the code, but the teachings speak of justified sacrifice and that death is a part of life...
I have to agree
I forget if I had commented on this earlier, but it's worth repeating. The ultimate failure of the Sith was not because of the latter day masters failing to uphold the Rule of Two, but because Darth Bane himself had failed to anticipate the degradation of his philosophy as the Grand Plan came closer to fruition. Darth Bane instituted his philosophy as a means to destroy the Jedi and the Republic. He did not institute it as an end unto itself. It was inevitable that later day masters would succumb to the temptation of immortality, because once the Jedi and the Republic were destroyed, there would be no other outlet for the Dark Side to manifest itself. As a scholar of the Dark Side, I'm surprised that Bane didn't consider this fundamental philosophical problem. The example of Darth Nihilus should have served as a warning. That Sith Lord decided to worship the void instead of seeking immortality, but the philosophical problem leading to that choice was the same that confronted Teneborous, Plagueus, and Sidious. For Darth Bane, there was no endgame beyond the destruction of the Jedi and the Republic. No analysis of what the Dark Side's purpose was after the goal of supremacy was achieved. That was why the Rule of Two failed.
Well, the Sith always had a big problem with Endgame goals in general - Craving Power simply for the sake of more Power already implies that there is practically no endgame
When you think of it, the rule of two, as conceived by Darth Bane is actually selfless. He wished not that he himself controls the galaxy, but the sith, and the way for that, is sacrificing himself to the stronger sith and so on and so on.
it actually was selfish denying many potential sith lords the dark side even temps jedi the dark side is not confined to just two people
obviously the dark side isn't two people there's dark jedi and night sisters and other stuff
Darth Nox "denying many potential Sith Lords" , Lmao, they're not WORTHY of it you idiot, Darth Bane is the ENTIRE REASON the Sith took back control of the galaxy, that was ALL HIM. His grand plans. You have not a single clue what you're even talkin about. Not even remotely. That "power" was within the 2 MOST powerful ones alive at any given time. The other "potential Sith" were passed over because they were not worthy of BEING a Sith to begin with. They made damn sure to pick the right apprentice to pass on their knowledge to, the entire Order depended on it.. the brotherhood of darkness were an embarrassment to the entire Sith Order. Period. They were weak, and about to be destroyed by the Jedi in the first place.. Bane showed them what true power was. You're a moron.
Actually it was conceived by Revan
Revan just thought about a grand master of the sith should have a central apprentice to govern under him but he still use the societal model of having multiple lower siths following them, while bane took it to the extreme he saw that a central apprentice is needed to inherit the power when the master dies but all other siths that is not the master or apprentice must not exist for they only make the apprentice weaker by helping in killing the master
I understand the logic behind the Rule of Two, but I still disagree with it. Two is far too few. Simple bad luck could wipe out both master and student. We still had incredibly powerful sith long before the Rule of Two. Ancient sith didn't need it.
The problem with having more than two sith though is once the sith empire takes over. The sith crave more power and split into a bunch of civil wars each faction to weak to hold against the republic and the jedi. So having many sith is doomed to fail even more so than just 2.
And look what happened with the ancient Sith in a Great Hyperspace War, turned against each other, lost to jedi and got wiped.
TheSzymax And in the Old Republic MMO and in KOTOR 1/2. And in a few of the books.
TheSzymax
The Rule of Two honestly hasn't worked very well either. The Sith were marginalized for a thousand years and then came to power for around 20 years.
+irllcd13 It worked better than anything before. Created the most powerfull Sith, kill Jedi and Republic, how isn't it working good.
Plagueis seems like a pretty nice guy though tbh
The Rule of 2 made little sense, and was very counter to the Sith's beliefs. The Dark Side required destruction and action. This is why it was very common for the Sith, once they had actually won to not hold that power long. They stopped being active and became reactive and defensive, and the Dark Side was not with them. Palpatine and Vader where noteworthy excepts, as they kept the Empire in constant strife.
The Sith also believe that one must constantly be challenged for rulership, (specifically by other Dark Side users), as that is how the Sith learn and advance the secrets (new powers) of the Dark Side. The Rule of Two causes stagnation, and would be seen as cowardly by the Sith, hiding behind fake logic as weakness.
Another major issue is that no Sith should give a crap about "the Sith" ruling the galaxy. A Sith wants THEMSELF, and only themself to rule it. Or rather, they want the Sith to rule, but only if they are the one to do it.
And... this is 3 years old.
Bit late to the party
The rule of 2 was the best the Sith ever created.
Because the Force allowed it to flourish for 1000 years.
The Sith are very arrogant. The master thinks that he is too strong to be overthrown, while the apprentice thinks that it is merely a matter of time until he can defeat the Dark Lord.
I still think that the bigger flaw in the Rule of Two was not expecting that a Sith would reject the Dark Side. I mean, once it almost did screw up the Grand Plan in the old Legends continuity when Darth Gravid decided that the path of the Light Side was better and that the Sith should reject the Dark Side. Fortunately for Bane's plan, Gravid's apprentice, Darth Gean, didn't agree with that and killed him. She tend continued the line.
The other flaw is if the apprentice is mortally wounded in their fight against the master. Actually, that's a much bigger flaw, thinking about it.
in that case the apprentice is not stronger than the master & gets replaced, oh you meant they kill eachother, the masters accept the rule of two so give in & die when the killing blow is incoming rather than striking to see both die
Marcusjnmc
Not if they both thought their killing blows would let the survive. The Master should never go easy on his/her/its apprentice.
+Vader the White so is Kyle ren a sith, or a darkside user?
Austin Vanderheyden
He's a dark side user, not a Sith. It's been confirmed.
Vader the White so are sith extinct?
Legends is so much better that current canon.
Absolutely
I still consider it canon
I still consider it cannon. The Disney sequel trilogy is just bad fanfiction.
@@melissalayson7275Squeals is a much better description of what Disney is doing that "Sequels".
@@melissalayson7275 Anti-personnel or anti-armor cannon?
I highly doubt The Sith will fully go away because there are sith temples and holocrons across The Galaxy that any force sensitive can access and be influenced by
Exactly, which is how Darth Krayt became a Sith, by finding the holocron of some long dead Sith Lord on Korriban. For all intents and purposes, the Sith would have remained dead had it not been for what Darth Krayt did in Legends. Most people forget that the very first Sith actually originated from the Jedi, and were exiled Dark Jedi. As long as their are Jedi, there will likely always be Sith. All it would take is for some Dark Jedi like A'Sahrad Hett (Darth Krayt), or Kylo Ren, or Snoke to find a Sith holocron laying around somewhere and learn how to be a Sith from it.
Like certain passages in holy books such as the Bible and Quran.
Like certain passages in holy books such as the Bible and Quran.
That's the reason why the Sith will always be around.
Nope most was rejected and destroyed before bands rule of 2
Forgive me if I missed something but my understanding that being a "Sith" was not simply synonymous with "a dark side Force user" but was a specific title with specific implications. When Order 66 happened, we had folks like the Inquisitors being training in the ways of the dark side in a limited fashion but who WEREN'T given the title of "Sith." The "Sith" were originally an actual race, and others who would later carry that title did so in a more honorary, figurative sense despite their literal bloodline not being of the Sith people. Having additional dark side users, even ones in direct allegiance with the Sith, did not automatically constitute a breach of the rule of two. My understanding of the title of "Sith" was that it was not a descriptor but a specific role to be played.
A comparison would be with the concept of a "president." A "president" (Sith Lord) has a particular defined role and using that title denotes very specific meaning. The word "politician" (dark side Force user) is more descriptive and covers a wide range of possibilities and does not necessarily require a position of any importance. A president IS a politician, but that doesn't mean every politician is a president by default. In fact, let me take it a step further. A president also has a vice president under him (rule of two LOL.) Those are specific, defined positions with specific responsibilities and liberties attached, but there are more politicians out there than just those two individuals.
The additional politicians aid in the work of the president and vice president, but they have neither of those titles or those roles to fulfill. Technically (at least in the American political system,) the president and vice president are still subject to a system of checks and balances (at least they're supposed to be...) so that they cannot act unilaterally but work in accord with the rest of the government (hmm.) The Sith stopped having any semblance of checks and balances when defining the rule of two due to the Sith Lord taking the job of "Supreme Leader" with the purpose of acting as a unilateral governing force.
So, the punchline being, as far as I can see having a "rule of two" wouldn't put the Sith in a position of vulnerability as some have questioned here. There could still be plenty of other dark side users (where do you think they get new apprentices from? they don't just feed off the Jedi and catch trained Force users to convert them to the dark side...) For example, the Night Sisters. They were trained Force users that practiced a specific art of "Force magic" and took advantage of the power of the dark side, but they weren't Sith. Yet they existed for quite a long time and weren't some new variant on the rule of two.
Ok that's enough of my ramblings, if someone thinks I'm wrong or has info to challenge this, please feel free to post. I'd love to learn more. My brain is still asleep and not working great at the moment.
Preposterous A Sith president? Lmfao! 😂😂😂 👍👍👍 Elect a Sith Lord for President in 2020!!!
Preposterous best description of the sith I've ever seen, well done
We need a Sithocracy. Like a democracy, but for the sith. Marxism-Sithism when?
InternetCatPrep The way you are saying meant have been what Revan intended that there would only 2 people who have the title.
*Great comment! Makes sense to me*
The Rule of Two may have been necessary, but it was also inherently flawed, as it required too many selfless acts by Sith, for FAAAAAR too long, in order to be effective -
-The Master would have to teach the Apprentice EVERYTHING s/he knew about the Force.
-The Apprentice would have to STAY the Apprentice until his/her master taught him/her everything s/he knew about the Force.
-The Master would have to research, discover, and master new Force techniques.
-The Master would then have to teach these new Force techniques to the Apprentice.
-The Master, who's life would be limited, would have to protect his/her Apprentice until death, even if they are too weak.
THAT is why it failed. It was flawed from the start.
The master would never protect his apprentice, if somebody stronger Came along he would be replaced. Once the master was weaker then the apprentice, the master would be killed.
@@emperorfancypants2512 Darth Bane did it IMMEDIATELY after implementing the Rule of Two.
If anything the rule of two exacerbated all of the flaws of the Sith. The Sith should have taken examples from Darth Marr on what Sith should be
The backstabbing of the Sith was a flaw in the system. Bane's rule of two where the Master has power & the apprentice craves it until powerful enough to take it, doesn't work if the apprentice poisons the master in the sleep (never becoming more powerful than their original master)
The datk side always turns on itself...they were destine to gail. It is chaos in itslef
And it's also the Master's duty to remain on guard and maintain their power until the apprentice did kill the master.
Ironically, there was more "infighting" in the Banite Sith than there seemed to be in Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness, which was literally about to defeat the Jedi before Bane intervened.There's a reason the dark side of the force tempts even the Jedi. It was never meant to be confined to empowering one or two people. Bane's Rule of Two was heresy.
Yeh
Surely Bane could've let them beat the Jedi first, and then found a way to exploit all that allegedly inevitable infighting of the Brotherhood of Darkness by convincing one group to use the thought bomb and lure the others into a trap...thereby pressing the reset button on the Sith WITHOUT having to hand the galaxy over to the Jedi for 1000 years.
The flaws of the Rule of Two aren't limited to some of them seeking to break it through immortality. Tenebrous trained two apprentices in case one didn't work out.
Sidious killed Plagueis by getting him drunk and THEN zapping him to death once he'd let his guard down.
This shows that being a good Sith isn't just about brute strength in the Force. It's about adaptability and cunning. A true Sith master wouldn't be afraid of multiple apprentices plotting against him...he'd find a way to play them against each other. Even a team of Jedi turned on itself at Kessel when one was desperate enough.
The very nature of the Sith made having multiple apprentices impractical. You can play one apprentice against another, but no matter how powerful or cunning you are, they will turn on you, fight over the spoils, train new apprentices, and the cycle of weakness starts all over again. The Rule of Two made the infighting manageable.
But alas, the rule of two required a certain sense of selflessness. It was foolish of Bane to try and do anything. The Sith are not a group, an organisation, a species, or even an ideology, they are a force, one that would just as soon collapse in upon itself as it would be wielded against others.
NetherWalker well, the Sith actually is a species
1. Rule of two never worked. Bane supposedly got this idea from Revan and Malak, even though the two had been taking orders from a Sith Empire and had their own Sith on Korriban they were raising as an army
2. Bane's own apprentice didn't even follow it. Zannah attempted to kill Bane when he was at his weakest, when that was according to Bane not his true desire.. Bane even figured this when he realized he was aging and thought Zannah was going to wait him out till he was an older weaker man.
It's clear it was a stupid rule. Considering that Vitiate was the most effective at this
0:42 "Through the perversion of Darth Bane's grand plan..."
... That implies that the Rule of Two wasn't a moronic idea to begin with. Granted, the Brotherhood of Darkness was doomed to fail, but at least it didn't put all its eggs into one basket.
@@Visitormassacre
sidious 20 year rule of the galaxy is nothing compared to the achievments of the old sith (ragnos, vitiate)
rule of two is utter bullshit and would mean you only have to kill 2 sith to end the order
The Joker yeah but the dark side doesnt work well when all the power is spread amongst weak fools.
@@MrLuckyMuffin I'd rather fight 1 mma fighter than 1000 over weight couch potato. I might get lucky with the one guy or just be better than him. Eventually the 1000 guys would wear me down.
@@Visitormassacre sidious didn't rule the entire Galaxy. There parts of the Galaxy he didn't control before he died. Many times in the past the sith conquered most of the Galaxy. They did this through strength, killing thousands big jedis in combat. Not having the Jedi ambushed by clone troopers and murdered. They crushed the republic military not tricking the republic into surrendering to their rule.
David Martin no they did that with old and weaker orders of Jedi. And again they were always taken down by their fellow Sith. Would you rather fight one apprentice knowing you died to a superior foe, or lose to 40 random weak with hanging up on you. Even Sidious failed because he didn’t follow rule of 2 correctly. He kept an apprentice who could never surpass him in true ability.
a cantina band player trained Darth plagueis
Oxymorphone Are you serious?
What was his/her name?
Have u heard the story of Darth Tenebrous the swag? they say his power in the force was so great he can earn minimum wage by playing at the bar
@@lynnusuk2092 lmao
Darth Butt-head.
@@Matthew-Anthony it was a ancient sith lord called darth alibi you can find her in r6 lmao
11:51 Oh man so full of hope
I need more old republic in my life... also I feel that both the sith and the Jedi have diminished greatly from what they once were... *le sigh* I want a proper sith order...
+xxAshleyxx Was never a fan of the rule of two, it was always destined to become the rule of one anyway.
Yeah the rule of two doomed the sith from the start , The sith already had trust issues the rule of two intensified it.
that rule weaken the sith rather than making them stronger
sure sure , believe what you want . But isn't he, Darth bane smarter than you.
That rule is still garbage but still the Knights of Ren should make that mess into something great.
Or how about, far more logically and simply, the Sith were doomed to fail BECAUSE of the rule of two. Because no master would ever pass on all their secrets to someone who threatened them. And even then, one does not need to know all of one's secrets or necessarily be more powerful than then to defeat them. The idea that the power would grow every generation was ludicrous. Because having only two people in a dangerous galaxy where you fly through space and one of a thousand things can mean a sudden death or either or both, especially since they were always in the same place, and because there is fundamentally a limit to how much two and only two individuals could do-- they were never going to be able to defeat 100s of Jedi unless they could more or less match them in numbers. Even Darth Sidious' victory, the only victory that could have been achieved, involved recruiting and using many sith.
Hard to read due to grammar.
The rule of two is a stupid, self-defeating concept that only works because of writer fiat and would not function without plot contrivance.
1) Siths are all about being selfish, angry, arrogant and conceited. Any Sith ever would hold some portion of their knowledge back from the apprentice in order to lengthen their own survival. Furthermore, they would naturally kill any apprentice who came remotely close to being a real threat. Darth Cade himself did this, demonstrating that even the guy who came up with the bullshit didn't actually believe in it and proves it was a failure from the start. This rule of two ensures that some knowledge would be lost over each generation.
2) The Sith apprentice does not need to have learned all the master's tricks to overcome them. They just need to put a light saber through them at any random time or watch them step on a mine or send enough minions to kill the master. Any number of ways to kill the master without actually being more powerful than the master in all ways. Again, this ensures a good amount of teaching is lost over each generation, especially when coupled with #1.
3) There is no particular reason for anyone to take on or train an apprentice at all. Why not horde all the power for oneself? Another half-trained individual running around and acting in your name is only a liability if you absolutely need to remain hidden. Especially since one can be certain the individual is going to be seeking your death if you train them.
4) The Sith are actively at constant war with the Jedi. A single individual, or even a pair of individuals, are ultimately going to have limited abilities. Especially since we know they would lose more and more every generation. Meanwhile the Jedi are building one another up and recruiting legions. Two paranoid Sith constantly trying to kill one another are no match for a legion of cooperating Jedi. Especially since it has been proven time and time again that a decently trained Jedi can take out a Sith. And the Jedi really only need to kill the master.
5) Outside of the Jedi, there are so may random ways to die. The ship you are on gets hit by an asteroid or the hyperdrive malfunctions, or just gets blown away by pirates, the building you are in gets hit by any number of natural disasters that are just unavoidably lethal, powers or not. There are weapons out there that can apparently destroy planets-- if both of your Sith happened to be on that planet at the time or a master who currently didn't have an apprentice was... there goes the entirety of the Sith.
Honestly, if the problem with the Sith Brotherhood was that they were unstable, vulnerable and they were constantly attacking each other, then all this rule of two did was compound the problem a hundred fold.
And, really, at the end of the day-- it was just a pretty weak excuse as to why the Emperor didn't have a hundred Darth Vader like people under his command and a bunch of fanfic nonsense stories desperately trying to justify the poor excuse.
+TheHobgoblyn The whole point was that the Rule of Two was a comon cause to strengthen the dark side you were to take an aprentice you'd be proud to see surpass you and defeat you as they would be able to make the dark side stronger and get closer to the goal that the previous Sith Lords before you have pursued the destruction of the Jedi and absolute control of the Galaxy but unfortunately the last few masters chose very poorly and thought more of them selves then the overall plan and that desire of immortality is what lead to their ultimate failure. I believe all force adept groups need a limit to the Size of the organization due to the bigger they are the harder it is to keep the teachings clear and concrete on what they are supposed to be.
Demi-Fiend of Time That makes it an even dumber idea. It relies on people whose abilities and strength literally come from "hate" and other "dark emotions" to be selfless,calculating and rational. It would be one thing if the Jedi were to institute such a thing, but it runs entirely counter to how Sith act and it never could have lasted for centuries if put to any actual scrutiny.
Ummm..didn't the sith win...did the sith not take over the empire and the galaxy using this rule of two...was not balance restored to the force by the reduction of the Jedi numbers to the point that the entire history of the force and Jedi became a myth...did I miss something
Bane's Rule of Two seems like a contrarian reaction to the philosophy of the Brotherhood, to me. Having only two people allowed to know the ways of the Sith is needlessly risky, as any significantly large setback could snuff the entire Sith religion out. The Sith were _saved_ by greed and ambition, as nobody ever stuck to the Rule of Two. Countless secret apprentices abound. No Dark Lord of the Sith wanted to risk being alone when he had to kill his apprentice, he needed another powerful Sith to take his place immediately, so he would cultivate a crop of second stringers. Nobody wanted to take the top job without having backup, so every apprentice would have at least one apprentice ready to go. Sidious had his Hands, and a string of official apprentices. Dooku had Ventress, and Savage Opress. Vader, though now non-canon, had Galen Marek, and tried to cultivate Luke as a prospect. The Rule of Two meant individual Sith would be strong, but the order would always be weak, necessitating convoluted schemes, like, oh say creating a clone army with biological chips in their brains to make them turn on the Jedi? I think, if Bane could look forward to the time of the Empire, he wouldn't see an empire ruled by the Sith, he would see an empire ruled by an emperor who had just taken the Sith teachings for his own purposes. Not a Sith Empire at all. Since nobody really knew the Sith still existed, after the Jedi were wiped out, the Empire was still just an empire of despots and thugs, not Sith. No glorious golden age of spreading the way of the Dark Side to followers.
Basically, I think, despite all of his personal power, Bane fucked up, and doomed the Sith. If the Brotherhood had persisted, they could have won a war with the Jedi. They could even have won through a dark-sidey deceitful grass roots PR campaign, and converted masses to the dark side, predisposing them against the Jedi.
People have done that before, regarding what the Brotherhood could have done. And they were almost certainly doomed. The entire Brotherhood were close to being wiped out against the Army of Light, but that army wasn't the only opposition to face. Farfalla was in orbit with a couple of hundred jedi knights (not the random force sensitives that made up a large part of the army of light), plus the Order on Coruscant was not involved in the conflict yet.
The Brotherhood might have beaten the Army of Light if Bane hadn't interfered but they would have lost the war. Kaan was barely able to keep Kopecz in line, Qordis was ready to betray Kaan instantly, so was Githany, and Kasim who was the most loyal of the Brotherhood and also the most powerful, was dead. And the Brotherhood might not even have gotten the Army of Light in a weak spot if Bane hadn't shown up to teach them the lightning ritual that destroyed the forest.
The Sith being a big army and beating the Jedi was never going to work. It's also why all the Sith lords in the Brotherhood were so weak in the dark side compared to Bane at the height of his powers (Kasim notwithstanding, he was weaker than Bane in the Force but kept his Trump card, the dual saber Ataru secret, close to his chest so he could bust it out if he needed to take Bane out).
The video is right in general, about how turning away from the Rule of Two fucked up Sidious' plans. Everything else aside, he shouldn't have saved Vader on Mustafar because he was weak and deserved to die according to Sith philosophy. Robot Vader had no chance of becoming the master but Palpatine just kept him around as a lap dog. The Rule of Two might not have taken into account what a dark lord is to do once the grand plan is accomplished, but you have to look at the context: Bane faced a galaxy where the might of the Jedi and Republic were unassailable. His plan did eventually work in overthrowing them, even if his lineage fucked it up after completing it.
Thank you, palpatine perverted the sith.
The Rule of Two failed because Sidious didn't kill his master with strength, or in any battle at all. He got his master drunk, and killed Plagueis while he slept. The point of the rule of two was to choose the "strongest Sith" (in all aspects) to carry on the lineage. I understand Sith need to have cunning, and intelligence, but Strength is also very important. Sidious ignored that. Then Sidious chose a crippled Vader as his apprentice when there were other better candidates.
TheBigExclusive stop stop during the ruke of two the sith did not need to be physically strong just snart and cunning, another thing who else would have Sidious picked as his apprentice seeing as a crippled vader shits on everyone except Palpatine himself
The power of the Jedi/Sith comes from the Force,not from physical strength.
Yoda is a good example of this
The Sith live as long as theres a Dark Side user and a Sith holocron laying around.
But they will be starting from almost scratch. While the rule of two has serious flaws, it does at least almost force the master and the apprentice to make sure the accumulated knowledge of the Sith continues on.
@@Aivottaja Even if they start from scratch, the rule of two is basically a system where the efforts of whoever is the dark lord at the time is continually moving forward to power.
ive said if there is another star wars trilogy some years down the road with a new jedi order that rey founded they would have to be prepared for a new threat if it should arise after she defeated her grandfather sheev.
as soon as sidious decided that he was going to keep vader as his apprentice instead of finding someone who could truly be his apprentice he decided the fate of the sith. The reason for the rule of two was to stop the infighting of the sith but the other reason is that all the power of the sith wouldnt be in one person so that if the dark lord or the apprentice died it would not be the end of the sith. Also Bane gave Githany a chance to be his apprentice just like he did his old lightsaber teacher and they both chose to support lord Kahn. the bane trilogy is my fav series in star wars so i know it like the back of my hand
I think the reason the final 3 Lords wanted immortality is because they could feel that the end of the line was near. The earlier Lords knew that they were to be the stepping stones and understood their deaths would further the plan. So it seems likely Tenebrous onward just wanted to be the ones to see the Jedi fall knowing it would be sooner rather than later
The Sith are inherently flawed. Rule of Two or massive amounts of Sith both have equal problems.
I mean, to be fair, Sidious did complete the sith dream of destroying the jedi & republic so there wasn't a need for Bane's rule of two (which was only a means to that end Sidious achieved) The only problem was that the jedi & republic managed to fight back 25 years later
Githany was too dangerous to keep around, Bane would have constantly been looking over his shoulder.
Githany was a fool, she had 3 opportunities to kill Bane and she let him do as he pleased, she wasnt a threat.
@@sebas8225 - Bane was impressed by her strength in the Force, her inventiveness and her viciousness. It was none of those things that convinced him to discard her, but her inability to see through Kahn's manipulation to the truth.
Honestly I think the rule of two only succeeded because the plot needed it to work I mean, I find it hard to believe that in 1000 years not one event where both master and apprentice both died. (e.g blown up in a starship together, killed while fighting Jedi, mortally wounded fighting each other etc.) I mean, it happened with Vader and Palatine but the fact that it took so long feels like plot armour to me
you recognize that the force allows you to see possible futures
If a random ship explosion etc could have killed them then they were weak in the force which makes 0 sense since the main benefit of the rule of two is that your usually left with really strong force users. This also neglects the fact that there is always a slight distrust between master and apprentice which keeps them from being in the same place for too long.
Lastly I think that the force would naturally manipulate strong force users to become sith and find sith holocrons, manuscripts, etc. should master and apprentice die (There must be balance in the force)
Remember that many times the force is described as leading people to their destinies etc. like when bane found his first holocron it felt like he was led there by the force
Bingo
@LycanVonWolf
I said "possible" futures not "the" future. They still need to be able to interpret the future correctly.
Example: the jedi chosen one prophesy
That being said random ship explosions etc. are fairly easy to detect ahead of time. Its the convoluted futures that are hard to see. The better the force user the better the future interpretation but like everything in existence there is a limit to it.
Example: Darth plaugeis is *seriously* wounded when an assassination attempt is made on him while he was in his public businessman persona. The plan to kill him was convoluted and harder to detect even by a sith master
The apprentice master fight is what usually gets sith killed, something which is hard to discern considering that the master's job is to make their apprentice hate them and want to kill them. That is much harder to interpret from the future when all your apprentice is doing is thinking about how to end you, too many possible futures there.
Example: Darth tenebrous was able to stop an accidental explosion from killing him and his pupil but he could not forsee his pupill killing him while he protected them both.
One future is simple the other is complex.
The major flaw of the rule of two was inevitable to fail all it takes is one greedy bastard to ruin the whole order. Given Sith doctrine is built on greed it’s bound to fail.
He didn't mention how Darth Zannah only won that fight against Darth Bane because she had an advantage with her Sith sorcery while they were combating on that planet which was strong in the dark side of the force.
If doesn't matter how Bane lost. The point is he lost.
+Leader287874 If Bane would have been strong enough he would had also draw on that planets power. That makes him weaker when he lacks the ability to take advantage of his surroundings.
I suppose, others may argue that the better fighter is the one who can best their opponent on an even playing, without the assistance of situation circumstances.
Leader287874 That sounds more like a Jedi thing! :D
+Leader287874 It's not about who is a better fighter. It's about who is stronger in the dark side.
A Sith Master deserves whatever they get if they let themselves show weakness in front of their apprentice. That said, the Rule of two was always weak, in that there were times when the death of one could doom the Sith. If a Master died shortly after taking their apprentice or the apprentice died while the Master was too old (a fear Bane had towards the end of his life) Then the order was doomed. Even at their strongest it only took two deaths.
What you say in this video is absolutely right! Tenebrous, Plagueis, Sidious, all fools. But i think the ironic part of the Rule of Two is that Sith usually are selfish and seek power for their own but the other way around the rule of two makes them also selfless because the know theyre probably gonna die eventually and they are just a little part of something much bigger. Thats an interesting point I think....But! You say that Plagueis and Sidious didnt proove theyre worthy because they killed their masters somewhat cowardly. But I think you miss understand. To proof that you are worthy to take the title of Sith-Lord you can not only be a good duelist. Its a little bit like the "Survival of the fittest". "Survival of the fittest" does not mean "...of the strongest" it means that you have to survive using every opportunity given to you regardless from where it came from or what it is. Killing his master is the ultimate proof that youre worthy to be dark lord. You are worthy because you managed to kill your master, and you proofed that youre more powerfulm beacuse you managed to survive and he died. weakness is not just shown in a fight, its shown in every aspect of being a sith. and when you kill him, through using his weakness in that particular aspect, you are not just a barbarian sword waver but also a mind that can use the lack of others.
Best regards, Jonas
Proved. When u say proofed it means you're checking some writing to make sure it's correct or something similar. You make a good point. But I still think it's just a matter of only thinking short term. Even when they take the long view. It's back-asswards but totally true.
However that was not Bane's intention by creating the Rule of Two. The point was for the apprentice to surpass the master in power. The Master's purpose was to embody the power while seeking an apprentice that will crave it by seeking to become the governing lord of the sith. Being opportunist was not something Bane admired it was the whole reason sought a new apprentice in Cognus because he felt Zannah was unworthy since he theorized she was waiting for him to become weaker through age and sickness before usurping his position
Hearing that bit at the end about episode 7.... oh you poor soul
The Sith has not failed or died. That is their greatest weapon, making everyone think they don't exist. You get all comfy and complacent and suddenly BANG! Their army has landed on your doorstep and you realised you've been undermined, deceived and out maneuvered at every level and in every detail. If you don't know or expect this, you don't know the Sith.
Just subbed. I am such a HUGE fan of Star Wars and even though I am not well versed with the EU, i can always count on awesome people like you to fill me in.
You must be extremely disappointed by the The Last Jedi.
For many reasons.
Even more disappointed with Rise of Skywalker. Disney has thrown everything out of the window! What they have done with this disaster of a trilogy is complete nonsense.
How Luke, Snoke, and Ren fit into the new paradigm? They don't. Heck there isn't even a coherent paradigm to fit into; stuff just keeps randomly happening, and the only thing consistant is the continual rise of the Mary Sue. Next, she'll institute her own rule of one, but it's okay, because she'll be a good sith and no one will mind her glorious ironfisted rule anyway.
I don’t consider the last three trilogies canon because it really does not fit into the rest and makes no sense
for Darth Zannah & Githany
Anyone notice how the force awakens has the same plot as a new hope
Aaaaand, instead of this, we got alien horses in a casino.
And a chubby Asian that hates everything
Love the vid! After reading the Darth Plagueis novel I have come to the conclusion that Darth Plagueis the Wise was indeed the wisest of the Sith Lords. I believe that he was correct in his reading of the signs and portents showing the END of the rule of 2. Plagueis understood that Bane's rule of 2 was the vehicle that brought them to the final destination of rulership but he also understood that for that rulership to truly continue the Sith would have to transform once more. What made Plagueis so brilliant was the fact that he wasn't a tyrant and he understood the value of learning from others. Plagueis truly regarded the ideas and thought process of Sidious, even adopting his plans to destroy the Jedi. Unfortunately Sidious did not learn the value of Plagueis's teachings. If Plagueis was allowed to implement HIS plan he would have ruled forever strickly because he WASN"T a tyrant. He would have imprisoned the entire galaxy in a Gilded Cage and NO ONE could have opposed him. Bane's rule of 2 was meant to bring the Sith to rulership BUT NEVER ADDRESSED ACTUAL RULERSHIP! This is where the designs of Plagueis are flawless. Plagueis and Palpatine had become more powerful than death. They had even become powerful enough to shift the balance of the force from Light to Darkness. No other Sith Lord in history can make such boasts before or since then. Plagueis and Palpatine had reached the zenith of power. A power that could have ruled forever if only Sidious could understand the wisdom of his masters teachings!
People here acts as if the Sith might become extinct because the two "sith" were killed.
Let's say the two Sith Lords died and thus ending the Sith. A force sensitive can still stumble upon Sith artifacts and learn the ways of the Sith - Thus new Sith are born. Sith aren't limited to species or two people, the Sith is an ideology and a system. If the two Original Sith lords died, then another could (and would, considering how vast space is) find their relics and be turned into a Sith themselves.
The Sith isn't limited to a few humans, The Sith can die out for hundreds of years only to be revived by a Single Jedi finding a Sith Holocron.
The Rule of two isn't incredibly flawed as it doesn't concern itself with the people in question, the ideology of the Sith can still survive even though the Sith lords fall.
You can't kill an idea.
Except is since it's based of an idea that goes directly against sith philosophy, the rule of two was never going to fully work.
The Sith lords spirit/knowledge was also passed on through the killing of the master by the apprentice. This is how dark lords gained a form of immortality and why "the" Sith lord always was so powerful
While Tenebrous was more into Scientific studies Plagueis was more into Mythical ones and Sidious was more into a mixture of the two.
Plagueis was like a life alchemist
Personally, this is what I view as Star Wars canon.
Star Wars: The Old Republic
The Darth Bane Trilogy
The Darth Plagueis Novel
Episode I
Episode II
Clone Wars TV series and bits and pieces of various novels like Mace WIndu: Shatterpoint and Yoda: Dark Rendevous
Episode III
Star Wars Rebels
Original Trilogy
Episode 7: The Force Awakens
do you like the post ROTJ EU stuff?
Theres also many new books aswell as the comic series that marvel have released (and probably your biggest source this far for the disney SW universe stuff)
You don't own Star Wars, so you don't get to decide what is cannon.
+jabocdawookie123 actually we do we can decide what we consider to be Canon or not Lucasfilm and Disney can't tell us otherwise the new Canon may the official one but that doesn't mean we have to acknowledge it is as canon to me nothing but the original six movies and the original expanded universe is canon everything is infinite's for me.
Darksnovia You can consider whatever you want as canon. It won't change facts or reality.
What if Darth Zanna failed and died at the hands of Bane? Bane would be left without a worthy successor and the future of the Sith would be at risk. Also, what if an apprentice killed his master, but then turned to the light - this sith order would have been disbanded there and then. The Rule of Two might have been exactly what the order of the Sith needed, but it was also very risky.
Also I don't think Plagueis and Sidious did anything contradictory to the Rule of Two by murdering their masters the way they did. Darth Zanna also tried to murder Bane by using stealth and sorcery, knowing that she would not be able to best him in direct saber combat. Bane himself, or possibly Sidious, also stated that the Sith of old would use might, but that the Sith of the future would have to rely on stealth and guile. Plagueis and Sidious only murdered their masters when they had nothing left to teach.
9:29 I died laughing from the way he said "himself" and his face.
11:50 Ooooooooh boy! This video did not age well!!!
"Remember the first reality of the Sith: there can only be two. And you are no longer my apprentice. You have been replaced!"
Sidious to Maul
darth bane tried to do an essence transfer on zannah during their duel. i think that the rule of two was his attempt to live forever by taking over his apprentices.
To myself, the rule of two denied so many potential Sith lords during it's reign from Darth Bane to Sidious. I'm hoping there's more than two Sith lords this time in the new trilogy.
RobinMelons Sith are selfish and have a tendency to fight each other. That is why the Rule of Two was created. Civil wars kept breaking out between Sith. Instead of fighting the Jedi they fought each other.
@@Matthew-Anthony No the Sith being selfish and infighting was never the reason behind the Ro2, it was ineficiency and ignorance in the Korriban teachings.
The new trilogy will never be cool
If only you knew how the sequel trilogy would go when you wrote this... I don't really see how the rule of two wasted potential considering some Sith Lords would train multiple apprentices if they thought that their apprentice was too weak and then their apprentices would fight to prove who was the better apprentice. An example would be when Tenebrous trained both Venamis and Plagueis.
One of the biggest reasons why the Rule of Two failed IMO is that even if it was used properly, Siths are naturally going to have different interests and aptitudes. Imagine you had Sith master that had a once-in-a-century talent with machines and gene engineering. They were taken down in fair combat by an apprentice who was a genius with mind control and illusions. Then they were taken down by THEIR apprentice who was a prodigy with lightsaber combat and telekinesis. The abilities of the master and the master's master go to waste. The best case scenario is that the apprentice just maintains the previous masters' research and hope that their own apprentice (or some apprentice down the line) picks it up. Which has no guarantee of happening! How many Dark Siders continued Momim's research in Sith architecture/time travel or Plageuis's with midicholorian manipulation?
I agree. The Rule of 2 is a sure fire way to lose.
facts
*****
Because it never lasted longer than a few years, STUPID.
+BlackWingedSeraph It preserved Sith for thousand years lol.
TheSzymax
No, their sneaky nature and tactics preserved them. Think how many more would be around if they didn't keep betraying each other.
They would always betray themselves. Thats major part of being a Sith.
The rule of 2 was stupid to begin with. First there are limits to what even 2 people even sith can accomplish, also the addressed a symptom of the in fighting by basically making it mandatory.
so basically the sith destroyed themselves, since the dark side does encourage greed and promotes dark siders to achieve their greedy desires, doesn't that make the dark side flawed to some extent, and encourage the sith to destroy whatever sith order is present if the sith order gets in the way of a lone sith's ambitions due to the fact that the dark side is against preservation of anything if preservation itself gets in the way of ambition
It's almost like the dark side was meant to be used in moderation and only as a survival tactic 😏
bane saw the bigger picture of keeping the sith order running for as long as possible via the rule of two, but tenebrous, palpatine, plagueis were the most selfish, wanting to be the "be all, end all" it seems, very interesting
I just found this channel and this video was awesome! Can't wait to see the rest of your videos.
Thinking back, if plageus, his master, and sidius (pardon the spelling) had remained faithful to the rule of two it would likely have ended with the ultimate sith lord Darth Anakin
How?
sorry it's pretty far fetched. I got excited after the video
Nah, Anakin was prophsied ti End the Sith regardless of whether they followed the Rules. thats why the Sith were doomed anyway. the Force itself rejected them.
He wasnt prophesied to end the sith he just had a very high mediclorian count and the jedi thought that was the reason.
Will Whyatt
no he was prophesied to like 1000 years before his birth
"Always two, there are. No more, no less."
-Darth Tyranus
-Darth Sideous
-Darth Maul
All three of them were active sith at the same time.
I call bullshit.
HCE Plagues was alive during a good portion of that too. So that makes 4
They were not all active at the same time. Sideous picked up tyrannus after maul died in phantom menace.
Jacob Chat no, they were not all active at the same time. Tyrannus only came into the picture after maul died and while plagueis was alive while sidious was training maul, plagueis was assured by sidious that he was only training maul to be an assassin, a tool for them to use, trained in the dark side of the force but not in the ways of the Sith. Plagueis didn’t really think of maul as a true Sith, so for him it was really only barely breaking the rule of two.
Maul was the apprentice Sidious planned to have. He was planning to kill Plageous anyways. So it would've worked out. So not necessarily bullcrap.
To be fair, Palpatine didn't know Maul survived the Battle of Naboo, at first. When he did find out, he tried to eliminate Maul.
love the vids dude. cant wait for the next one
+bootintheass Thanks man, that is very nice to hear. Another video will be coming out by Saturday, and I hope you like it.
Love your videos. Keep them coming. We only ask that you commit to at least two videos per week.
+K.D. Gipson Thanks KD, very nice to know that you are enjoying the videos. With all of the very nice support and interest, two videos a week shouldn't be a problem.
"The first and only reality of the Sith. There can be only two."
Darth Sidious
The rule of two never made sense to me personally. Yes two very powerful sith could take on many jedi however...
1-With the vast amount of sith gone and the sith and jedi no longer killing one another the number in jedi(weak and strong) began to increase rapidly giving them vastly superior numbers.
2-The vast number of jedi worked hand in hand with Bane's reason of killing the sith. Too many weak sith would kill a stronger one, well too many jedi of various levels in strength could kill two very strong sith.
3- the rule of two is nearly impossible to inforce as we have seen with the secret apprentices where the true sith apprentice trains his own in secret(thus negating the rule of two) and killing his master without learning all he knew. Sidious even says he killed his master in his sleep. This does not push the sith further but actually stalls them more. As knowlege is lost, as when the sith had an empire if a sith lived long enough he would record his knowledge in a holocron, preserving the knowledge for future generations.
4- I know many people say the rule of two brought down the jedi and yes it helped but so did a huge amount of luck and the jedi's own over confidence. While the sith knew of the jedi ability and thier lack of combat experience the jedi had nearly lost all knowledge of sith and how ruthless they could be. It was more on the fault of the jedi than the rule of two that lead to the fall of the jedi order.
5-Darth Bane got his idea of the rule of two from Revan who said the sith numbers needed to be reduced to prevent infighting for survival. I think bane took this way too far.
Bane also preached that the main tools of the Darkside were trickery and cunning. Bane was also quoted several times in Path of Destruction saying "Honor is a fools prize" and "Honor is for the living". So wouldn't it stand to reason that Plaeguis and Sidious were just using the tools of the Darkside to elevate themselves? Bane was almost killed by Githany when she attempted to poison him, and as he said if he had died he wouldn't be worthy. Wouldn't, in any fashion imaginable Tenebrus and Plaeguis' deaths mean that they were no longer worthy.
I will admit that if Plaeguis hadnt refused to retaliate against Sidious that he may have overpowered him, but other than that neither master was worthy any longer to hold the title of master since their apprentices were able to kill them without the assistance of another dark lord or jedi.
My interview on “Topic Time” with Harrison Blake Young to promote my 4 books went excellent. Didn’t go into full detail with the books because they’re so extensive, didn’t want to give any of the plots away, and I often don’t feel comfortable talking about them with other people. I dressed casually to make myself more comfortable and not make myself look like a stuffed up, starch collared ass. Glad I won’t have to be working up to 65 hours or more a week like I have been the past 5 years at both Home Depot and as a machinist at Alpha Grainger. Now I can relax, have more free time, still work at the machine shop, and write more often. It’s going to be on UA-cam & Easton Community Access Television sometime next week. Not sure when.
One thing Idon't undrstand is, why the hell does darth bane care what happens after he dies? is there such thing as reaincarnation in the star wars universe? is that what he's hoping for?
Because he believed in something greater than himself.
+Azronger LOL, what is the point? they have no loyalty, no moral code, so why the hell should they live for anything but themselves? seems kind of stupid to me, I see it as the flaw of the Sith, they have no good reason to exist. Anger and resentment are silly reasons, reveng is silly. I can see the lesser troops being fueled by weak shit like hate and resentment, but the leaders should be in control of themselves enough not to need those things, and they should have a motive other than power, power is a strange motive for such an ancient culture, you would think they would learn something after mellenia of well documented history.
Padraic loingsigh It's obvious you know little of the Sith. Read books like the Darth Bane trilogy and Darth Plagueis.
+Padraic loingsigh He actually values more than himself, maybe? He honestly believes in his vision?
The Sith DO have a code:
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
The death of hte Jedi and the conquest of the Galaxy is Victory, and victory is freedom
i have a Doctrine for the Sith.
1. No infighting allowed when you are currently at war with the Jedi. Those who do not follow this rule are to be immediately executed.
That's it.
The Darth bane series wasd one of my favorite book series as a teen. It is so well written. And I often attributed the fall of the empire to the fact that sidious abandoned the rule of two. Great video :)
Rian Johnson: Here’s how Snoke fits in. He doesn’t!
On the contrary I always felt the Rule of Two was one of the dumber things that Lucas came up with. It made the Sith extremely fragile. If both die like in ROTJ the cult dies with them. In fact without writers fiat the Sith should have died out centuries earlier for a number of reasons. Two people is far too few to achieve any sort of real power. Two people can't be everywhere at once and have far too few skills between the two of them on top of the fragile nature I have already mentioned.
12:00 RIP. Disney star wars has no interest in worldbuilding or philosophy. thats what i hate most about them :(
i love your vids, and my favorite part is always waiting to see what the "if not for meeee...." will be. IDK, you're awesome :)
I find your videos hilarious in their presentation. Love them; thank you!
Ever since in the Phantom Menace, George Lucas had Yoda say "always two there are, a master and an apprentice, no more, no less" I've wondered how the hell the Jedi could've known about the Rule of Two? In the EU, after the Sith Brotherhood fell, and Bane and Zannah killed the team of Jedi who were the only ones who knew the Sith survived at all, I thought the Jedi and the Republic govt considered the Sith extinct, and had no way of knowing that Darth Bane reformed the dark side order based on teachings from Revan's holocron, into the Rule of Two. I mean, wasn't the whole point to let the Jedi assume the Sith were extinct and use the resulting freedom and anonymity to operate from the shadows? I see no way the Jedi could've known about Rule of Two in Phantom Menace unless they were on to the Sith plan, which contradicts the whole story arc of the prequels. So is this a plot hole, or am I missing some key info about the canon?
+munstrumridcully No reading this I have the same ideas, much because I am clinging on the old republic and Revan, and if there is always only two, then they will never be canon
I cri everitim
In The Phantom Menace, Mace Windu tells Qui-gon that the Jedi would put all their resources to discover who Maul was and where he came from, as Qui-gon made the assumption that Maul was a member of the order of the Sith. It is true that the council believed the Sith were extinct but they never were. So obviously, during the investigation of Maul they may have searched the home-worlds of the old Sith and found Bane's holocron or maybe even records of his line of apprentices. its possible they even investigated the death of the strike team sent to kill Bane, as by the end of the movie Mace says "There is no doubt that the mysterious warrior was a Sith." it is then that Yoda cites the Rule. only after the investigation ended did they know. the details of the investigation are nowhere to be found as they were never expended upon, even in the EU.
spritecollcterFTW awesome reply! Very well thought out IMO. I like it, it makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the response☺
The only problem is that officially Dromund Kaas and a few other Sith homeworlds aren't canon, I was reading up on the history of Dromund Kaas and it stated that Yoda may have gone to the planet at one stage, although I'm pretty sure that is non-canon, the only canon planet is Korriban/Moraband.
But as I said before, I only want Bane to have made the rule of two just so Revan can at some point be made canon, just give us a damn Revan film or TV series
Two there are a master and a apprentice no more no less
Except when Bane takes on a second Apprentice and his own Apprentice takes on her own apprentice.
Way more.
@@levongevorgyan6789 The Rule is flawed, but Sidious case was much worse, his apprentice tyranus had another apprentice of his own.
@@sebas8225 It's purity failed within three generations, with Darth Cognus' own apprentice creating a branch Sith cult.
I believe the rule of two is always going to be apparent you can try and go against it but to no avail, eventually. I feel that evil is doomed to be binded to the rule of two.
The biggest problem really is the fact Sith only want what's best for themselves. They'll do everything and anything to gain power and live forever. The reason Lucas created the Rule of 2 for the Sith was because the Sith would do nothing but kill each other for power.
The rule of two failed because the sith got weaker and weaker with each generation due to the master wouldn't share all his secrets with the apprentice and so the apprentice would require a apprentice themselves to be able to match the masters power an succeed. Then the new master would of course be weaker than the previous one and so the cycle would continue in this trend each time
+Patrick Juma So if the sith got weaker with each generation, and SIDIOUS, (who was many generations away from bane), destroyed the republic and jedi, then Bane and Zannah could have done it outright
Sidious was definitely powerful, but it was not necessarily his power as a Sith that helped him destroy the Republic, but rather his supreme skill as a politician and leader. His Sith background helped, but it was not necessarily the single deciding factor.
It is entirely possible that Darth Bane could have soundly defeated Palpatine in a duel and been the stronger sith, but Palpatine's power as a Sith would pale in comparison to his skills at persuasion, deception and trickery, and the power of the MASSIVE, GALACTIC FORCE at his Command.
A Sith Lord may kill dozens, hundreds or even thousands of soldiers at a time, but such feats pale in comparison to commanding trillions of soldiers and millions of Starships.
It is entirely possible Bane may have failed at destroying the Republic in Palpatine's place despite being a more powerful Sith, merely because he lacked Palpatine's peerless skill at manipulation.
only half correct they got weaker in Lightsaber combat, but they got wiser in force abilities
SinerAthin did u iust call Darth Bane more powerful then Sidious🤦🏾 Palpatine shits on Bane everytime even if Bane has his orbalisk
Original _97 Wtf are u talking about the Sith did not get weaker over generations Sidiousand Vader are said to be the strongest sith
The Rule of Two was a failure of an idea to start with. Two people, no matter how powerful, can rule the galaxy alone. They need people that are truly loyal to them and not just following out of fear. Palpatine could never have held power forever as he was still very much had a weakness to battleships exploding. If Luke wasn't there, the Emperor would have died anyway, The Death Star was going down and it had little to do with Luke, I suppose Palpatine could have escaped, but then he'd just constantly be on the run. Why? Because he can't trust anyone to truly lookout for him, or support him, in the end everyone on his side would abandon him the moment the threat from something/one else was larger than the threat from him. The Rule of Two works great for building the knowledge and power of the Sith, but its crap for building an Empire.
The failure of the Ro2 was Bane expecting the other masters after him to follow his teachings, also he made the sith weaker in Lightsaber combat.
Rule of One or 2 or 100 or 1000 won't matter, the Sith sometimes will lose and sometimes will win just like the Jedi.
That is just the way the force works, always finds a way to balance itself and bounces back and forth.
I think a counter argument could be that the rule of 2 is destined to fail with Tenebrous, Plagueis, and Sidious showing that salient fact that "absolute power corrupts absolutely." That the chasing of power such as what the sith craved was doomed to fail with those 3 serving as an example, that it (the absolute power) is ultimately unattainable (I dont regard force ghosts as having that type of power the sith were chasing even though force ghosts could live forever or for a time after the death of the physical body) if you use only one side of the force (which the Sith and Jedi did) and especially the dark side feeding on the emotions that are needed to fuel the dark side such as anger,hate fear, jealousy etc.. will ultimately cause betrayal and a rejection of the rule of two due to ones own greed, lust for power etc.. Especially over long periods of time where the true meaning such as Banes rule of 2 starts to be watered down as the banana phone-esk style of passing down the rule eventually causes it to be bastardized.
one Point i think is wrong , yes sidous killed his master in his sleep and that wasn't as fair as the duel darth bane had but that doesn't make sidious unworthy just think of it when darth bane started the rule of two he couldn't be so stupid to think that the sith could rule by strength in combat (if there are only two) so basicly beeing a cunning Coward and destroying the republic from within is the only way the sith can suceed (except some super powerful sith ritual or something )
+Sebastian Schwärzel yes and no, the point of the power change in the rule of 2 was to make sure that the apprentice would be stronger in one way or another than the master whether it be in light-saber combat or in force techniques (which is how Zannah ended up wining against bane) not through murder during sleep, Darth Bane even went out to find a way to prolong his own life (not to live forever) but to find a more worthy successor to the Darth title because he thought Zannah was waiting for his body to waste away due to long years of using the dark side of the force, rather than face him head long in a battle of wills/strength.
Several years later and your hopes for episodes 7,8 and 9 are...depressing.
I'd like to see a new rule like a chain. similar to the rule of two but with more links in it. so each apprentice has an apprentice of there own and to become ruler of the sith you have to progress up the chain by defeating each member.
+Connor Flynn That doesn't work, those who are lower in the chain have the ability to team up and defeat the strong together and that leaves the order weaker than it was. This was why Bane made the rule of two, as it makes so that only the strongest will survive each time when the infighting occurs.
+elmotuz what if no team ups are allowed. I know it's not a good plan I just wanna see loads of sith haha
Connor Flynn Haha, you think Sith would follow orders in pursuit of power!? :D
+elmotuz no not really but we can dream haha they did have the dark council before even tho it failed.
+Connor Flynn +elmotuz Darth Zannah had an apprentice of hers before she dueled D. Bane, so, yes, the Rule of 2 is n fact a Rule of 2 or 3
I'm really enjoying the videos. Keep up the great work!
So the sith masters are supposed to sacrificed themselves to their aprentice for the greater sith good? weird since all of them are so selfcentered and bent on becoming more and more powerful. i guess they were meant to fail from the start.
The Rule of Two is actually impractical, why take an apprentice who will you later either by honorable duel or by scheming? It is a shortsighted rule. The apprentice will not be patient to take the mantle of the Dark lord and will soon scheming to kill the master. This will not be in large organization, yes Sith will compete each other but there will always be someone in higher rank. So you're an apprentice of a master, you kill your master, but the higher ranks will hunt you down for your foolishness. The masters will be scheming against each other but they will still consider the higher goal and interests, the organization. This goal that make them being together even though they rival each other. The Sith teaching also preserved in the organization and do not risk a lost. What if an apprentice killing the master out of being impatient and the secret the master have lost forever? How much of Sith knowledge being lost because of that? In short, The Rule of Two is stupid.
Nizaris1 the idea is that the aprentice wont be able to kill his master if he's inpatient, he will die trying
I disagree because Revan knew 3000 years before Bane that the Sith and He do were obsolete. He said there was no such thing as light or dark but a balance and though I like Bane he was no Revan
The rule of two is likely a misinterpreted almost throw away line from Yoda when he explains there is always a master and an apprentice. Just like anything Star Wars any line can become expanded upon ad nauseum to milk for profit.
I don't think it was supposed to be a "thing" it just became one as Yoda pointed out there is likely another one cause *most* people learn Force powers from other people, with a few exceptions.
A lot of Star Wars canon is a bunch of nerds trying to stretch out three movies' worth of material across 40+ years of fandom. I love it.
Darth Plagueis is Jar Jar
plagueis is a puppet... did you not hear how his whole life and feelings were manipulated and instilled by his master Tenebrous... you'd rather have a puppet come back or the real mastermind...? xb
I disagree that the way these sith killed their master was wrong, they used cunning which Bane would of approved of and more importantly they engineered the events that weakened them, bane didnt want an apprentice to take control at a time of weakness caused by outside forces in my opinion, if the apprentice engineered the events of their masters downfall he may well praise them as they was obviously the superior sith, for an apprentice to trap and kill a master indicates that master is weaker.
That being said i think Sideous damaged the sith the most, he killed plageus without fully knowing all his secrets, Plageus could do think with medicolirians that would of been an asset to sideous and while he had some training in this, if i was sideous i would of found out everything before killing him.
I think Sideous also broke the rule of two by training maul, i know maul was essentially an errand boy but it split the darkside and made three bodies to control the power, and then you have all the "emperor's hands" later on that essentially meant the sith returned to being many (granted most where weaker in the force) Bane would not of approved of any of that.
sidious knew all his secrets... it's highly suggested that he did... for one the only direct source we have is sideious saying he learnt everything there is to know... there is no other time where its said plagueis with held information...
then we have out not so direct sources butt highly suggest plagueis did teach him everything...
one being as the video stated... plaguies highly believe in equality with sidious... and fully trusted him...
tenebrous when he hid inside plaguies body... even calls plaguies a utter fool and is baffled at how much plaguies trust sidious... then sidious even mentions at how trusting plaguies is...
there is no statement that even suggests plaguies even slightly distrusted him and held anything back...
personaly this idea that he did keep secrets is by fans who want snoke to be plaguies... the only thing they have is if the believe maybe he keep a secret which was him figuring out how to cheat death... xb
+CuntCocktion I never said he held bits back, merely never taught them, sidious and plagiues are exact opposites in skill sets, one far more scholarly and the other more skillful in martial skills, plaguiues spent decades doing experiments gaining knowledge of mediclorians, I doubt they would of had the time in the few meetings they did have towards the end to transfer that knowledge, also the emperor shows no signs of healing from his scars something plagues was capable of doing over time, if anything this confirms he did not teach him everything, keep in mind he thought he had eternity to do so
Team Cannon Fodder I don't believe Darth Bane would approve of the methods used by Sidious and Plagueis. Darth Bane's philosophy was for the acolyte to conquer his master in martial combat not by deceptive devious cunning. Power obtained deceptively would not do, it would only be shallow deceptive power, unworthy of the true Darth Lord Mantle. T'was the reason Darth Bane ended the Brotherhood of Darkness he saw and forseen numerous lesser Sith banding together in order to defeat greater Sith Lords. Thus Darth Bane destroyed what he believed was inferior and an impedance to full Dark Side embodiment. Both Plagueis and Sidious killed their masters but in a fashion that betrayed the Rule of Two, and further by their actions showing no loyalty to Darth Bane's Grand Sith Imperative. True they outlived their masters but to little avail as it doesn't prove their effectual superiority in the Dark Side, would they have bested their masters in one on one combat? We can't say. Darth Bane's philosophical ideology was simple: "Rule of Two" one (the master) to embody the Dark Side power, one (the apprentice) to covet it. What would have culminated in a Dark Side apogee a true triumph, of thousands of years worth creating the most potent Sith Lord the galaxy has ever known thwarted by foolish, selfish, ambitious lust for power, manipulation, and immortality. We shall see what Snoke's grand master plan is and if it's more successful then his Dark Side predecessors.
+Goℌan-D Uzumaki I have mixed views on how bane would view them, he would not like plagius for attempting to abandon his plan but they never banded together to take their masters down, they used a cunning plan and their masters did not see or stop them, neither used third parties or events they did not foresee to take power, they constructed their masters downfall on their own and that was banes idea, however they did not do it in a combat fashion and bane seemed to believe this should be the way it is done, however bane missed that even combat can have the cards decked based on location for example he himself was killed because of zannah harvesting the dark side of a planet and creating tentacles from them, something she would of been unable to do in some world's, I believe banes idea is essentially one on one survival of the fittest and it's hard to see what sidious or plagues did as deviation from that unless you only consider lightsabre combat as the only way to decide who is stronger...basically I think bane would not approve of their method but would somewhat agree with the outcome as a better sith should of seen both attacks coming and sidious and plagieus both murdered their masters. plagueus however would of been the one bane disapproved of most for trying to make a eternal sith duo, sidious ultimately followed banes ideas and even tried to convince Luke skywalker to strike him down so he would become a site and in keeping with banes idea he knew that if Luke could kill him or Darth Vader he would deserve to replace them as leader of the sith, Luke ultimately did not but it at least showed sidious had some belief in banes ideal
Team Cannon Fodder Darth Bane's Philosophy was of accumulative ultimate Dark Side power not devious cunning. Neither Plagueis nor Sidious followed Bane's ideology.They abandoned his principles for their own ambitious agenda. I don't see how killing your master while inebriated and asleep is a testament to Dark Side potency as it is to devious cunning.
Palpatine Episode 9: BY YOUR POWERS COMBINED I AM CAPTAIN PLANET
Pure darkness: fails...
Pure light: fails....
Revan: I'm going to use both!
Still fails...