Fighting Game Concepts in Different Game Genres
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- Опубліковано 18 вер 2024
- In this video, we take a look at how concepts defined early in gaming due to the popularity of Street Fighter 2 have gone on to develop into entirely new concepts in entirely new game genres! As always, Subscribe for more video essays, and liking and commenting helps out a lot.
Twitch: / eddventur3
Twitter: @NecropolisMemer
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Jimbulus at 4:11 top left building. Very hidden indeed :3
Jimbulus if he was on your team: HAHAHA! noice!
Jimbulus if he was an enemy: nonono don't run into tha- AW DANGIT
Jimbulus if he has tactical nuke: lol
"Okizeme is the beatiful and tranquil art of kicking your opponent while they're down"
Thats it, thats how I will explain oki from now on
"you are fighting a smart and talented human, and one of you is kicking the other while they're down"
Ui goku : 'there is no oki, die'
That masterful Anji footage only made it better
And kicking them in the face if they try to get up lol
“Being called slurs by a 12 year old online” not what I was expecting but you’re not wrong
i bet you guys thought the guy who said "he's planting" was awesome. guess what. that was me. bitch. I'm awesome.
Hes awesome
Lol yeah
He is awesome
he’s awesome
Hey awesome, im Killua
with every new video i am torn between "give this amazing analysis my full attention" and "find jimbulus as fast as possible"
???
@@plaguedfrost1753 jimbulus the third is a joke character from one of Ed's videos a while back, he said he would hide an image of him in every video and pin the first comment to find him
Every video has a hidden jimbulus the third, find them all for a special item
If you ask me why I find fighting games cool, it's a simple case of "do combo"
I think it's also the signature game mechanic of a fighting game.
Executing a sick combo you have been working on is akin to getting multiple flic headshots in a FPS . The feeling is amazing
And my favorite is finding a way to stop your enemies attacks (especially after being bodied for so long)
I'm in the same boat, but aside from platform fighters, I'm horrible at fighting humans who can switch tactics on the fly, and fighting the AI in those games is always just a case of "figure out how they react to your buttons and with which moves because they're always going to do the same thing in the same situation." Fortunately, Character Action games mitigate the poor, predictable AI by throwing groups at you, and they're just as focused on the combo games as Fighters do, so at least I can throw myself at stuff like Devil May Cry and not get bored.
It helps that the most basic of combos in that series start firmly in the "that was friggin' awesome" category and more advanced ones only get cooler. Vergil's Judgement Cut chains are literally just spamming out the same zoning move and it's still fun to watch.
Perhaps I’m taking this too seriously, but I think it’s a reach to say that Street Fighter influenced some of this more than it being convergent evolution.
Movement and competitive context exists in pong, even. Careful vs careless strats exist for sure.
Shotgunners and Snipers representing rush/camp play styles would stem more from paint ball and the actual interactions there than SF2, IMO.
Oki being spawn camping is a reach as well... I’d say stacking of enemy statuses in Resident Evil 4 (controlling movement with headshots and melee etc)would be a better fit.
Idk, fighting games are cool but convergence is definitely a thing.
my favorite thing ever is when i find a new action platformer and it has fighting game commands, a la castlevania or odin sphere
These aren't unique concept introduced by fighting games but just an aspect of the competitive nature of humans, look at any martial arts, sports, or the way people wage wars and you find the same concepts.
For inspiration, most games take inspiration from their real life counterparts or from media of similar genres, say how most shooters take from war stories, war movies, or even from other shooter games. Competitive games just share similar concepts because they draw from the same pool of ideas, real life competition and conflict.
Edit: Just a note that this comment is incredibly rude and while not meant to be, is easily seen as such so my bad. Just wanted to make sure people keep their views broad.
Well there was a strange application for barrel bombs with the monster nibelsnarf. When he charges at you with his mouth open, he can swallow bombs you placed previously, so you could position yourself in front of those bombs and give yourself an opening to lay some smackdown on it. Even fishing it out of the sand to get a free knockdown. I love creative uses of items like that. Like bomb throwing in Monster Hunter Rise, which can prolong your airtime from the wirebugs.
By far my favourite fighting game channel ever. It's always so high quality while having a homemade feel.
The movement stuff can also be applied to MOBAs as well
Yes, laing is just footsies with extra spets.
To add to the Monster Hunter "wakeup punish", clutch claw made it so you could bomb for wakeup, then latch on with claw, flinch shot the monster into a wall for even more damage, then get a full damage window on the knocked down monster, before then further going in for a mount. Hell, some people go to extra lengths (looking at you bowgun users) to chain a forced sleep effect for a second round of bomb wakeup, into a paralyze, into a mount, and finally maybe a 3rd round of sleep bombs, maybe a KO.
The true art of beating someone when they're down
Oh shit, never even considered that
@@eddventure6214 Yeah, there's so many ways it almost becomes premeditated murder with some groups when the monster starts to run away
Starting to feel sorry for the monsters now...
Til next I see a player Stomped by one in a vid
Jigglypuff rest setups in a nutshell
"Not everyone can do an optimal combo the same way you can pick up a fps and shoot your weapon."
That is like comparing doing a combo to pressing the punch button. Yeah you can fire your weapon but learning to do it optimally is the key thing...
What hes saying is if you are good at it in 1 game you are good at it in all shooters like shroud, but the same thing doesnt carry over game to game in fighting games
@@eddieconversi9295 I still disagree with that. The shooting feels different between Apex Legends, Halo, Call of Duty, Battlefield, etc.
Great video. But respectfully, gonna have to forego subscribing for that ending clip while I was wearing headphones
Good thing my babe woke me up for this new Eddventure!
Genuinely disappointed you didn't talk about animation cancel at all. I'd argue that it defines the fighting game genre moreso than any other point you talked about.
Even games like Bayonetta have it!
In a lot of Shooting games, you can animation cancel reloads too, usually by melee or swapping weapons before the animation ends
You can animation cancel in a lot of Mobas (more complex chars are based on this) and in Overwatch.
It's not something unique.
And it's really important for comboing.
Even platformers have animation canceling
Classic example being slash cancelling in Ninja Gaiden which came out a full 4 years before Street Fighter 1
That's really more of a video game thing than a fighting game thing
@@lanternno8491 The point was to talk about concepts that were introduced in or popularized by fighting games, then carried on to other genres. Animation cancelling is absolutely something to talk about here.
i think there should be more emphasis on the similarities between fighting games and other games so that they look less daunting to new players. explaining them like this can help contextualize what youre trying to do in a fighter since fighting games are so very bad at teaching you these things with anything other than the video game equivalent of homework
I am for sure glad I subbed to you man. Keep plugging away and you'll be in the 100000 sub club before you know it!
this is so true, i find my playstyle is almost always consistent between games. i play rushdown, combo heavy characters like seth, chipp and lancelot, and in shooters i tend to play with a high rpm smg to quickly run in and kill people as fast as possible. in action games i always use the fastest type of weapon, and always wear light equipment so i can move and dodge swiftly even at the cost of defense. it’s actually pretty cool to think about how this stuff translates between games.
I usually rushdown in fighters (not that I play many, but when I do, it's rushdown), but in shooters I'm firmly in the camp that uses a mix of prediction and zoning. That said, it doesn't help that I mostly play Doom, and flooding corridors with rockets just in case someone walks around the corner is one of the most solid tactics available.
Honestly think Jimbulus is pretty well hidden in this one, lets see how long it takes for him to get found.
P.S. There is one more secret in this video other than him ;)
Top left of the building at 4:11. Well hidden indeed.
@@TangDynasty101 you son of a bitch. i begrudgingly applaud you
is the other secret the screaming emoji man at the end that gave me a heart attack?
@@MrBoingusAn actual video I got from a fan you mean? cause yeah
@@TangDynasty101 I cant pin a reply, post it as a regular comment
I took an interest in competitive pokemon wen I realized how analogous it is to fighting game concepts. It's essentially a turn based version of footsies and reads and I think the two skillsets translate surprisingly well.
I was thinking of that, too. I suppose one could argue it’s closer to chess, but I think the deliberate RNG of Pokémon causes the feel to lean much more towards the energetic back and forth of a fighting game, just where you COMMAND your fighters instead of playing as them directly
When I look at the moon I will remember your video
Btw fighting game analysts never talk about kof. It’s nice seeing a little appreciation
Ah yes the complex art of driving famously taking it's inspiration from Street Fighter 2. Who could forget the famous quote from Ayrton Senna him self "block this overhead."
Shotguns are very much the grapplers of FPS games
Monster Hunter has all of the key features of a modern fighting game
MH in MvCI was such a good character
Great video! I never would've thought you could make so many comparisons between fighters and other genres.
There's always a telegraphed attack in dark souls unless youre fighting dogs
Devil may cry was one of my favorite games simply because it was just a fighting game vs everyone.
Never really thought of it that way. Maybe if fighting games had mooks to fight and try things out on, it wouldn't feel so daunting learning a character.
@@alastor8091 That's what arcade mode is for, or practice mode on home consoles.
But of course, fighting against AI doesn't teach you anything about predicting human opponents
@@alastor8091 I mean beat em ups are kinda fighting games, and aren't hack and slash games a subgenre of those?
On the point you brought up with Forza, motorsports are a real thing, and the concept of not crashing has also been a thing for a while lol
JRPGS
The “Tales of” series
Your welcome
9:42 when that Saxophone under the Moon hits
Something you forgot to mention is that Doom's deathmatch was inspired by Street Fighter II and Fatal Fury, games that iD software played on off hours
I use FGC terms in everything. so theorfore everything is a fighter. time ti shimmy some one in cod and hit em with that DP
Excellent vid! Ive been thinking about this concept heavily the last few days, Fighting Games aren't my favourite genre, but man do I respect the genre. It really does feel like the Primordial Soup Genre for all other Competitive Game Genres. It is the defacto genre encapsulating all of the core multiplayer mechanics and concepts developed over the years and implemented and tweaked into other Multiplayer Genres.
I’m surprised you didn’t talk about flinch, it is a pretty big parallel between fighting games and shooters. It’s why “getting the drop” is so important, because the first one to get hit is at a huge disadvantage. It also sort of translates as people using automatics as basically rushdown/combo characters.
That said, what I would like to see incorporated into other games from fighting games would be something like frame data/priority. I think, maybe with something like an RPG, guessing what your opponent might do and choosing the right attack in order to “ move first” and do extra damage could be a really neat system. I wonder if there is something like that out there or not...
Priority is a big thing in Skies of Arcadia, Grandia, Final Fantasy X and Lord Of The Rings: The Third Age to name a few.
Just saying that enough is enough is a wonderful choice for an outro
12:00 Also chill, I'm already here
While I enjoyed your video and comparisons I would argue that the quality criteria you're describing also were not invented in fighting games.
Take a look at soccer for example.
- You have reading your opponent (do they go left or right, which player will they pass the ball to, etc.)
- You have reaction (a keeper catching the ball)
- You have oki (which is probably close to a situation where you're in the offense with an advantage say 3 players vs. 2)
- You have execution (aiming with the ball, running, catching, etc.)
- Only the super is something that I think is maybe video games exclusive as it is a pretty abstract concept.
All these skill layers are present in a lot of games since a long time. But you may be right that they were translated best into the digital space by fighting games.
Anyway, nice video :)
I prefer to think of Okizeme from the defender's standpoint. I think the most appealing part of it is successfully defending in that situation when you're at a disadvantage.
A good other genre comparison is forcing your way though a guarded chokepoint in an FPS... If a Demoman in TF2 has stickies in the doorframe, but you peek through then immediately dart back so he detonates them on nothing.
Getting into fighting games made me enjoy other games more, it made me understand things like frames and hitboxes.
My nickname for monster hunter is "Whiff punishing: The Game"
Okizeme exists in beat-em-ups. They call it OTG (short for On The Ground).
If you're going to bring up racing games- and that might have sounded rude, not how I mean it- don't forget CTR. Way deeper movement than modern Mario Kart, a bunch of nifty exploits and inputs taxing enough that many remap the buttons (holding back and break are both huge parts of the control which is both more physically and mentally intense). Plus hit a wall once and you're done, it's extremely tight due to that. And gotta time drifts more specifically.
Mario Kart Wii is the most technical and deep MK at least for core control. Air control, spindrifts, delay/soft drift, inside drift, chain wheelies and drifts, low tricks, etc. The items have many more specifics than in other entries as well.
I'm not sure it's fair to say these "came from fighting games", but it is cool to look at parallels among genres.
Broke: Tigrex winds up before an attack
Woke: Tigrex one shots you with cr.lp> st.mk> CA
So a quickscoper is analogous to ungabunga Dhalsim
i'm surprised that the one time you didn't mention r6 was when talking about okizeme, taking advantage of downed players (especially by using them as bait for a revive) is relatively important
you ain't slick with the low opacity Eminem rhyming at 08:00. Shit had me rollin lmao! great video
Monster Hunter is fucking loaded with Fighting Game concepts when you actually stop and think about it. Especially in Monster Hunter Rise.
The “Wakeup Game” exists very prominently in MH, as using the I-frames from being knocked down has won countless hunts. Not to mention in MH Rise, you can use the Wirefall ability to quickly cancel the wakeup animations by launching in a specific direction (similar to a tech roll). However, if this is done carelessly, it can be just as dangerous as getting up normally.
Conversely, many monsters have attacks that are seemingly designed to punish badly timed getups or mindless uses of the Wirefall ability, suspiciously similar to a meaty. 👀👀👀
Punishing, Spacing, and Reads are all big parts of the series as well, but I feel like they’re a little more obvious...
ehh Ill be honest I feel like only the overwatch super meter and dark souls/ monster hunter comparisons were the only one that demonstrated the relationship well. the other comparisons felt like reaching
"Okizeme is the beatiful and tranquil art of kicking your opponent while they're down"
*shows anji*
ah yes, the anji special, butterfly mixup
Shitsu...
FUUJIN!
10:20 SF2 is NOT the FOUNDING FATHER of competitive games. Why would you say that? Like you've never heard of PONG!
Do you even Tennis for Two bro?
I am always on either end.
Snipe or boom boom.
Then in fighting games it is zone, or unga.
I like shotos, as with most I can do both.
I think this vid should've been called something different, bcs it's not really obvious if it's inspired by SF2 and these concepts don't really seem like fighting games came up with them. Some of these examples were really smart like the oki in Monster Hunter, but I don't think Spawn Camping and Oki are even remotely similar. Also there were player vs player games that weren't fighters before SF2, so the movement example doesn't really make much sense. I still think your vids are good, but sometimes it feels like you're making stretches to make your point, which is valid, but can be explained in better ways. Don't want to be mean though.
While its true some of them are stretches, Its impossible to know what exactly took inspiration from SF2 and what didnt, so the real purpose of the video is just to exemplify how fighting game concepts are paralleled in other genres, not necessarily how fighting games inspired stuff in shooters, cause simply put, we dont know. I just think its fun to look at how stuff has evolved over the years into almost unrecognisable ideas but can still be seen in a game thats almost 30 years old
@@eddventure6214 Oh that makes a lot of sense
I agree
@@eddventure6214 cough*EverHeardOfThe”TalesOf”Series*cough
I couldn't be any more called out. My name is Ricky and I'm not the biggest fan of fighting games while also being a big fan of shooters. Who are you and more importantly, who do you work for!?
The King of Fighters is the best fighting game for me.
That's what made me love Fighting Games.
The ending almost gave me a heart attack
The Monster Hunter comparison to fighting games is actually deeper than a lot of people realize. While 99% of fighting game characters are more complex than a weapon in Monster Hunter, the 14 different types do legitimately have high skillcaps. I have played the series for thousands of hours now and am still improving.
Playing DBFZ helped me get better with spacing Zero’s Z Saber slashes in the X/Zero/ZX games. Makes those games so easy and fun for me, taking Mavericks down in style. Especially in Zero 3.
Came for the title stayed for the KOF background music playing in the video.
Hype for KOF15 tho!
It'd be cool to see this kind of video but with fighting games and rts games. There are a lot of things in common with those 2 even if they look so different.
FIFAs truck system are rather similar to command inputs
I've always wanted a PvE game among the likes of Yakuza or maybe even Dark Souls that has that fighting game feel in how you attack, dodge, or guard. Imagine learning a boss has a safe on block move that you can parry to make them vulnerable, or you have to bait out an attack or play around quick and safe moves the boss would block or dodge around to counter them. What if when you're fighting said boss, you can take advantage of Okizeme or use frametraps? Of course it would be hard to work it in unless you have a way at hinting the boss's habits but it's an interesting idea in my opinion.
Also at 5:47 I'd argue that if quick attacks like a Street Fighter light punch were to be in Dark Souls, you would also have to learn to predict the move or space around it, plus the most it would do is interrupt you unless it had big damage. The latter is probably why knives aren't used in PvP for Dark Souls (for the most part).
The sniper thing was a bigger stretch than what your average zoner could do, but other than that good video, I like the comparisons with monster hunter, it makes sense that capcom would draw inspiration from fighting games for monster hunter and that is an interesting idea that may not be obvious at first
Uncle Dane did an entire TF2 video on MATCHUPS, specifically centered around the Engineer.
I think bringing up Monster Hunter is a really good idea, having been a fan of the series for a long time now I can tell the game design has a lot of DNA in common with fighting games.
You talked about Oki applied to monsters' sleep state, but I think it's also interesting that Oki is also a thing the player has to worry about. The game allows you to stay on the ground in your invincibility state and delay your wakeup if a monster is about to try and attack you, and sometimes monsters will deliberately set up Oki on you like in the case of the Arch Tempered Nergigante fight, where it would always try to meaty you with a flying slam after scoring a knockdown on you. Hunters also have plenty of wakeup options, most commonly rolling away which is available to do as soon as your invincibility from knockdown ends, kinda like backdashing, or blocking if your weapon allows it. MHGU also uses straight up fighting game supers in its core gameplay with Hunter Arts, which can also be broken down into various different types like fast activation invicible supers like Round Slash, unsafe big damage supers like Spinning Meteor, Install supers like Demon Riot, or utility supers like Absolute Readiness. The whole series has always felt like one big PvE fighting game to me and I love it because of that.
kind of surprised you didnt go even harder on the monster hunter comparison with okizeme, since monsters have an actual knockdown state separate from sleeping that you can actually chain by applying damage with the right timings. ive heard some sns mains actually refer to doing this as okizeme like in fighting games, since it follows the same concept of using wakeup animations to do as much damage as possible while making sure they dont escape the loop.
Very good video, as a person whi loves tekken and Monhun, both skills transferred well to me, hence why i speedrun monhun now and i do agree that fighting games gave way to more mechanics on the later games!!! Amazingn video
Wow, I guess I never realized genji literally has a dragon install
You also forgot: Combos!
From fighting games, to action games like Devil May Cry or Bayonetta.
Combos!
Does jumping on multiple enemies in Super Mario Bros count as a combo?
@@KaitouKaiju that's more like a streak. I consider a combo a string of different commands.
It’s funny I’m playing cuphead and I was just thinking about how the bosses control space and do reads like righting games
Everything was great besides the outro. Do you just hate speakers and ears man? Did they break the rules of your local arcade by dishonorably using throws? Did they wind up beating you up when you tried to jump them for it outside the arcade? Did they play a zoner? Cause like, if it's that last one, I totally get it. Otherwise, you might be taking your revenge a little too seriously with that outro.
what was that last part???? I cry
Fighting game players should adopt concepts from other competitive games, like the idea of a win condition for example
Outta curiosity, what do you mean by win condition? Mind immediately goes to different characters wanting different setups and otherwise advantageous conditions to work towards, but doesn't sound like that's what you mean
@@DragonJawad I guess things like Naoto Shirogane in P4/BBTag setting up insta kill, Gogeta in DBFZ with his level up system and ability to get dragon balls, Steve in Smash Bros mining for Diamond, etc. Even more straightforward characters have win conditions, like Akuma putting you in the corner in SFV
This is a really good video
No mention of hack 'n slash? Games like Bayonetta and Devil May Cry feel the most like a fighting game to me. They share the same sort of reaction stuff as Dark Souls, but with a lot more moves you can perform and complex combo systems
8:09 As a GS main myself not blowing up the monster with a charged attack to the face is a serious offense to my code
This is closely related to a question I've been asking around for several months now, hold on a min, let me find and c/p it here...
"
A lot of characters in fighting games can be directly compared to others from other franchises, like calling Potemkin from Guilty Gear a "grappler" or referring to someone as "the Ryu of this game." This shorthand is very convenient and relatively straightforward when limited to fighting games, but it leaves me wondering, but what about beyond? The initial question I had imagined was "which Street Fighter 2 character is Red Deck Wins, and who is Junk Ramp?" and from there, it opened up a large can of worms. For example:
- How does comparing a team composition in KoF compare to weapon variants in Splatoon (i.e. Base Roller vs Tony Kensa Roller)?
- Is the difference between Sol Badguy and Ragna the Bloodedge similar to the difference between playing drums in Rock Band versus drums in Guitar Hero (and/or Taiko no Tatsujin if applicable??)?
- Should the AWP be the weapon of choice for Bowser mains?
- In an UMvC3 MorriDoom team, who is Boardwalk and who is Park Place?
- Is Mitsurugi a T-block or an L-block?
- Can Bulbasaur, Squirtle, and Charmander be properly sorted into Timmy, Johnny, and Spike categories?
- What's the house rule on wobbling in Uno?
These kinds of questions have been plaguing me for a couple months and I would love to hear your input on how best to address them. I believe that there is a coherent vocabulary that could be developed to make comparisons like these much easier to discuss, but so far from my experience it seems to be a poorly-explored subject. So far, the most my friends have been able to determine is that Magneto/Storm/Psylocke is the RDW of MvC2, AWPs are any grapplers who have to rely 720 command grabs, Dan is a shitty midrange deck with a win condition that doesn't actually exist, and the Dante/Vergil non-TAC infinite combo that runs out the timer before it can knock out any healthy opponent character is equivalent to a mill deck.
"
Fun fact. Boardwalk and Park place are actually some of the worst property since they aren't landed on that often. Red is best.
Great video, i just want to add that in class/heroes based shooters, projectiles characters are pretty much "read" based
I'm surprised that no one dont mention how some monsters in monster hunter have the meatiest moves capcom has ever made. For some monsters like rajang and alatreon, it's necessary to abuse I-frames while on the ground so that they cant hit you immediately after getting up
monster hunter generations/ generations ultimate also has supers one of which is a shoryuken with invincibility frames and can KO monsters
I learned a lot about fps on a fighting game video 😆
I like the core a gaming vibe
Overwatch def was influenced by fighting games. Doom had a Dragon Punch sticker
In monster hunter the monsters can literally oki you, and you can’t block with some weapons lol you have recovery frames after a monster lands an attack on you, and those recovery frames get worse the stronger the attack you got struck with is. They can literally attack you again as you are standing up and hit you frame 1 as soon as you become vulnerable again. It sucks.
Cool vid, nice mic
Thanks! Got it as a Christmas gift for myself and there sure is improvement compared to my older videos
i love these videos keep it up
Good video bro.
this vid is a banger
Arashi no sax is lit.
a lot of these examples seem like convergent evolution rather than inspiration.
Bro what was that ending? Loud as freak! Lol
just got a new sub
People before fg invented movement
Good content.
I hear KOF Music ahuu.
For me, it all about command grab
A game with flued movement are my favorite, guilty gear, dbzf, and DOA have my favorite kind of movement as it’s not slow and can be short or long dependent on execution. Games like mortal Kombat, street fighter, and tekken feel sorta sluggish. (Tekken debatable) but also I like options and combos are the best way to give options. Their my second favorite reason to play a specific fighting game. Not a fan of footsies
How interesting
10 fighting games? Those are rookie numbers
Monster Hunter IS fighting games.
Red Earth specifically