In praise of layered exposition
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- Опубліковано 3 жов 2024
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3 things all happened at once this week to inspire this video. Rewatching frieren, watching new demon slayer, and seeing Thomas Flight's new video. Hope y'all like it because it was super interesting to make!
Thomas Flight's video:
• In Praise of Great Exp...
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#frieren #demonslayer #pey
I just want to say one thing in praise of Frieren that I’ve not seem many people talk about, the pacing. And I’m not referring to the in episode pacing, the timeline in which we view the journey. We start at the end of the journey, the skip 50 years and have a story, and then it’s about ten or so years to the next story, then closer to 5, and then a year or two, then months and finally weeks. We start to see more of the time as Frieren starts to value the time more. It’s subtle, but incredible.
Yeah we actually see time slow down as Frieren slowly gets used to appreciating and valuing time
Till now, I always wondered why nobody have mentioned this and is a wonderful subtle detail that I'm happy someone finally have noticed :)
@@fabiangr3297 welc
anddd I knew I wasn't the only one who noticed this
oh man i never put that together, that's wonderful, like that one shot where there's a clock between himmel and frieren. The little details are really what makes some shows amazing.
For me Demon Slayer is a perfect example of simple writing done well, maybe it's not the best and has its flaws, but the author knew her strengths and weaknesses and never tried to go too far, but rather focused what how to make the story fun and interesting. Frieren is definitely in another league for me to compare them, an author that understands story-telling on a deep level and plays with different elements and layers of writing that most authors would be afraid to try.
Both great in their own leagues for me, I understand both are not for everyone, but both are awesome in their own way.
Finally, someone who appreciates DS's simplicity executed well
yep i totally agree,i think people just say demon slayer is carried by animation,whne the manga was a total sucees even though the art wasnt anything spectacular,and the reason is that eventhough demon slayers story is simple,its character and portrayal of the story and its themes are incredibly well done,its nothing incredibly complex but its something very well done,it makes the spectator fell a lot of emotions and empathize with the cast incredibly well
Yep for what it is, demon slayer slayer does it job well, in all honesty, I like it better than some Shonen that are better because of it simplicity.
It doesn't get too overly complex, like a lot of the current top Shonen, where I think most of them falter.
@@Scyon13 Having simple but impactful story makes it more likely that the audience will be able to relate to it more, yeah.
Compare this to JJK, where it seems like I have to get a notebook out in the middle of an episode sometimes. The explanations of the power system and characters can be so convoluted that it gives off the impression that the creator sometimes wasn't able to properly put what they were thinking on paper.
@@tomayto70 yeah imo gege just isn't a good writer, it's not just the power system that is the issue with that anime/manga, though it's not the only one with these issues.
Guys, i dont know, but this guy seems to like Frieren i think
Gotta respect those special interests that motivate you to think, learn, and do.
Well frieren beyond journey end is really something to be liked
Naa... You think?
As he should!
"Pey talks Frieren"
And during flashback, Frieren keeps waiting for the demon girl to do something. She knows that it will do something according to its nature. She just need her party members to see it for themselves.
I like seeing somebody sharing the same opinion of Demon Slayer as me. It's a gorgeous and incredibly fun show to watch but it's writing isn't as good other shows out there. What it excels at isn't the writing but rather the spectacle, which is only possible because of how incredibly well animated it is.
dude the only reason anyone gave a f about demon slayer was only because of the production
@@anaveragegamer359yeah that's pretty much what they're saying?
Yeah, that's fair. But damn is the spectacle, well, spectacular!
I think the target audience is just different, DS is just way more casual and easy to get into than fieren
Nah, the writing in Demon Slayer is very good, just a bit subtle so most people don't really see it.
Yes the plot is simple, like exceedingly so, but that is by design. The Demon Slayer Corps are soldiers, specifically child soldiers, and even in the best possible situation for child soldiers, having a leader that cares about them and truly wishes to help them and keep them alive, they still die horrible deaths, have traumas, like a lot of traumas, and get crippled due to their service if they are lucky enough to survive.
It's a work that shows the horrors of war, even the most noble and righteous war possible, going against the most unrepentant and horrible monster that has absolutely no redeeming qualities. Even then, war is a horrid affair that leaves even the winners as victims.
at this rate bro's about to compare one piece to frieren
Let him cook
they're the same genre and target audience
Let's go!!
Demon slayer fan boys 😂
@@markvanhook1923Demon slayer is a shounen genre while frieren isn't.
The difference between the exposition between Frieren: Beyond Journey's End (Frieren, Fern & Stark) and Demon Slayer: Kimetsu No Yaiba (Muzan & Kagaya) is that they have a completely different context executed by completely different characters. Fern & Stark are the friends of Frieren and those are the people she got close to, open up to and shared adventures with. The conversation they had is a compelling friendly conversation with relationship dynamics & perfectly timed comedy while also informing the viewer more about the characters. Whereas Kagaya (and all of his Ubuyashiki ancestors) hated Muzan deep in their heart. Both enemies don't even know what the other looks like and this is their first time meeting each other. This exposition is meant to inform the readers and as well as displaying Kagaya's philosophy on what "eternity" truly meant, an opposing philosophy against his long time ancestral enemy Muzan. A first time conversation regarding two people who view each other as sworn enemies would obviously have no relationship dynamic nor comedic timings. There's a difference between a conversation with friends talking with each other and a conversation between two people who view each other as sworn enemies for years having the first time meeting the other.
exactly this. Also can you really talk about a series that you analyse very deep over a series where you didn't make that? Only because Demon Slayer is simple doesn't mean is badly written, these are two aspects that people doesn't understand. Ofc demon slayer has his problems, but there is none in the last ep. One interesting fact I discoevered today was that the music the 2 children were singing, the music is from the 19th century and the music makes reference to the hinokami kagura and the sun god at the end, that's why Muzan was feeling nostalgia. Demon Slayer has his layers of complexity in mysticism and how the story arcs are developed and the main themes of the characters.
well said.
@@eduardocruz3542*its not his
I think thats why its bad and should be avoided
That kind of conversation would only be yap
So in this case, maybe we shouldve had friend characters talking about muzan and Ubuyashiki's relationship
Tbh idk how to make it layered
But they could make the friend characters hint at the exposition subtely
Also also, idk if a talk between enemies has anything to do with it. Yes theres no room for comedic timing but they do have a strong relationship. Again idk how to layer but they couldve probably layered that exposition somehow (dunno how)
There was nothing visually happening during that expo
Some good expos I've seen are when the 2 parties are talking (giving expo), visually we see the B plot while still listening to the expo. Its a great way to show how 2 things are happening at the same time while giving expo
(Rando thought, this you prob cant do in a book)
@@lettuce1626 so, how can someone who never saw Muzan, like an hashira talk abou that relationship or an Upper Moon talk about that same realtionship. Muzan also never saw Ubuyashiki so they can't have a relationship. It was their 1st interaction
In defense of Tanjiro in the first scene, he's trying to talk to Nezuko, not us. It's an efficient way to establish the stakes as well as tell us that Tanjiro is a loving brother. One of the good parts of Demon slayer.
Was he against that scene? I thought it was a good subtely written scene
Really hooks you in asking more questions
He wasn't against it per se.... just using it to illustrate lackluster writing. I dropped DS after Mugen Train bored me for 1.5 hours I can never get back and made me pay 15$ for the experience, so I don't know where it has gone from there. I can say that the writing was never a strong point. It did teach me that good animation, with on again off again decent sound design, isn't enough to sell a show for more than a season to me. Bad writing is a deal breaker.
@@logikx1325 just wanted to say, you stopped right before the best season of DS
Even people who dont like DS that much admits s2 (entertainment district) is really good
@@lettuce1626 I don't like DS and I kept watching in hopes of understanding the hype. Season 1 actually raised some interesting questions and showed potential for something greater, but it kept disappointing me. Anyway, I didn't find season 2 stands out much. If people didn't enjoy season 1 of DS, I think it's fair to say they're unlikely to enjoy the rest.
@@OhmIsFutile just cause I recently had a misunderstanding. When u say s2, u mean entertainment district/Tengen Uzui right?
I find the mugen train is kinda ok but the entertainment district arc is peak
@3:49 It's funny that Muzan is being memed here as the one "Yapping" when he was the person doing all of the listening in the first place, and just repeatedly saying in a nutshell: "Are you done", "Are you finished yet?", "Your yapping has reached its peak, im gonna puke". lmfao
Lmao very fair. I was trying to only show muzan as to not spoil the context of the scene for those who haven't watched the episode yet
@@PeyTalksAnime Ah I see.. rofl 😆
No problem.
Holy goddamn that flashback is so good. It’s the first time we get to see Himmel actually get serious and, paired with the absolute peak music, it hits so hard.
Frieren is a masterfully told story in every way - truly in my fiction hall of fame.
Absolutely beautifully put. This came out a day after I had a really intense argument with a friend over Frieren because they said that Frieren 'treats the audience like idiots' and 'tells instead of shows'. The point in question was the "I'm suppressing my mana" scene and I had to explain to him how that scene offers so many layers to it. It's so beautiful the way that it communicates in human language the deception that she has been pulling off in 'demon language'. Even more so the subsequent dialogue of Aura's hubris and how demons and humans can never truly understand each other.
saying "Frieren 'treats the audience like idiots'" is like saying "calculators don't help you solve math problems"
Your friend thinks he/she is smarter than he/she actually is lmao.
I mean sure, but the show spends like half the episode telling us all of that directly in a flashback with Flamme, so ... how exactly does that play into the point of the video? The scene undoubtedly has those qualities, but it's just showing us an example of what we've been told for the last 20 minutes of the episode to be the case (Which in good faith I'd assume was the problem your friend had with it). Can't really call those layers when the show beats you over the head with them because it's the entire focus of said episode, which is fine, but there's no subtlety or nuance to the scene, it's pure payoff.
@@phthaloboy5558 I actually disagree heavily and I'll try to quickly delve into it because I think you could write a whole essay about this. Feel free to ask me to expand on anything with support and I can.
Above anything else, Frieren is an exploration about what it means to be human and this especially pronounced by demons. Demons are irredeemable in that they can never coexist with humans. This is foundational to Frieren's story, yet the author distinctly made them as human-like as possible. This means that the tiny differences between demon and human are things that the author believes to be the foundation of what it means to be human. The layers of the scene come from the interaction between human and demons regarding the topic of mana suppression.
Initially, Frieren says that Aura should have figured it out by now, that she's been suppressing her mana. The first part speaks to Frieren also not fully understanding others because the author already knows that it's impossible for a demon to ever figure this out. The layers to the second part come from Aura's response. She gives absolutely no consideration to what Frieren said, despite all the evidence pointing that direction, because it's inconceivable to demons for many reasons. Frieren explains once again and Aura still does not get it. It's not crucial but the English translation asks her why she would do 'such a pointless' thing but the more literal version is 'such an un-understandable thing' which is too wordy but kind of sells the whole point I'm making. Then, we get the whole epic reveal and payoff which is super cool.
Now I could stop there but I found so many more layers to this interaction when I was watching this. The theme of the episode is deception and what is deception if not communicating false pretenses. A second theme over this mini-arc is communication. Finally, there's the question raised about why demons are irredeemable, which we have already somewhat been given an answer to. This interaction directly incorporates all 3 of these things; Frieren directly communicates the situation to Aura breaking the deception but she still can not understand Frieren after multiple tries, answering why Demons are irredeemable and then communicates to her directly, the only way she can understand, emphasizing the deception reveal.
Even after all of this I still feel like there is more to talk about. It's one of the few interactions we get between human and demon in the anime, which I believe are the lynchpin of Frieren and it's exploration of being human. It's why the subsequent episodic adventures felt much more thematically and emotionally powerful; they felt so much more human.
Yeah also the reason she says that is because Aura already put Frieren’s soul on the balance and Frieren is being cocky since she know she’s already won. It just shows how much she dislikes demons to the point she’ll show off to Aura before telling her to end herself.
Not only that but it reinforces how overconfident and arrogant demons are even when Frieren warns them they are no match for her. Aura and even Draht in an earlier episode don’t show any caution when Frieren tells them she is strong since they only rely on how much mana they can see. We are also given some more exposition organically with Aura basically explaining how repressing mana is somewhat difficult since she says that she didn’t detect any fluctuations in Frieren’s mana.
With Frieren showing off all her mana in this scene, this sets us up for when we meet Serie who’s REPRESSED mana appears even greater than Frieren’s mana. It just puts into perspective how much older and more powerful Serie is compared to 1000 year old Frieren. Then we see that Serie’s repressed mana also fluctuates which may indicate she has trouble repressing it, doesn’t care if it fluctuates, and/or if she’s doing to test her students ability to sense mana.
TL;DR: pieces of information are cleverly layered and builds upon itself in Frieren
Others may not agree with Demon Slayer's way of exposition but for me it sets the stakes of what the Demon slayer corps has done. As well as letting the Characters express themselves in a way that doesn't seem one sided. In my opinion Demon slayer's writing could be a lot better. But the story in of itself is wonderful. The manga was adapted amazingly and gave it more depth. So I'm satisfied with the Anime
I don't know if it's an unpopular opinion but I prefer the Demon Slayer manga as I don't like the comedy of the trio as Inosuke just screams while Zenitsu is crying and screaming; it's grating to the ears, especially since anime form it takes a few seconds or even a minute but it might be just 1 panel in the manga. It can be obvious in the anime that they're extending everything; I especially dislike episode 1 of the latest season with the Upper Moon meeting, the effects are just overdone like it's an Indian soap opera. Love the fight scenes animated beautifully though.
While the two shows took very different approach to writing and maybe had different target audience, Pey using the two shows as a way to compare the way to write and present a story is interesting. It's good to learn that as a writer you can leave a few things unsaid to let the audience peice them together in dfferent ways and how using different tools to do so and punctuate the themes of stories creates depth. ATLA stands somewhere in the middle of these two for me and it would be fun to see a comparison between the three
Many people keep saying that Demon Slayer is only good because of the animation but the manga sold tremendously well, and Demon Slayer was already incredibly popular in Japan before it's release as an anime. I, myself, have been watching anime and reading manga for 20 years and found Demon Slayer as a manga, and fell in love with it.
What's compelling about Demon Slayer is the characters, their motivations, as well as their interactions. The story is a simple one but that is also what makes it so refreshing.
Not only that but so many action shounen anime are exactly like Demon Slayer with exposition after exposition, much like Naruto, Dragon Ball, Bleach, Jujutsu Kaisen, etc. It's just what action shounen do.
And even though I am defending Demon Slayer, I have also found the Frieren manga, much before its anime release. The Frieren manga I might say is miles better than the anime. The silent and pondering moments of Frieren work much better in manga, than they do in the anime. I loved the manga, is one of my favourites, and yet i find the anime an absolute bore fest.
While Demon Slayer, a diamond in the rough, was elevated by its animation, Frieren, on the other, lost half of its magic by being animated. I highly recommend reading Frieren in manga, the art is so beautiful, it just gives another dimension for Frieren to be read than watched.
I also cannot comprehend how Frieren is published by a Shonen magazine, for its themes and pace it much more fits a seinen genre. Just because it has warriors and magic? Adults also appreciate that.
Shonen is purposefully an indication of anime/manga for young boys from 12 to 18 years old. I would say that Demon Slayer in its writing and action very much fits that age range. While the seinen targe age is 18 to 40 which I think fits Frieren much better, especially with its subtlety in writing. Not only that, I have found that most Frieren fans are adults.
With this, I'm not saying that someone of a specific age cannot appreciate an anime not aimed at them, I mean, I do, and I think most anime fans do as well. But we must think about the target audience of something before criticizing it. And of course, teens can also appreciate subtle writing, many do, but many can also go without.
In terms of movies, I would compare Frieren to Lord of the Rings, and Demon Slayer to John Wick. Again, great movies, both which I love, but that have nothing to do with one another, and possibly cannot be compared. Same with Demon Slayer, and Frieren.
Ds manga only sells good because of Ufotable animation in season 1
I also thought Frieran should have been a seinen.
@@anonymous-wu9md Wait till you realize that the manga was made 3 years before the animation, and the manga still did great.
@@Tootsuba yea the manga was lowkey before the adaptation and once the adaptation started, the sales skyrocketed.
@@anonymous-wu9md Wait till you learn how mangas are chosen to be animated
Demon Slayer's story is simple, yes. But that's why I like it. Demon Slayer's story reminds me of an old fairy book.
The difference between watching Frieren and watching Demon Slayer is the difference between eating a perfectly cooked steak dinner and a bowl of cookie dough ice cream with a brownie. They both can taste great and be utterly enjoyable, but only one has actual nutritional substance behind it, something you can take in and use to make you a stronger, more fully developed person.
You can fully enjoy both Frieren and Demon Slayer, but only Frieren has a myriad of ways to teach you the craft of storytelling that can actively promote and increase one's media literacy.
I think portraying Demon Slayer as a junk food does a disservice to your main point, which is that Frieren is an incredible story that has lots of good storytelling lessons that can be learned.
You don't need to try and downplay Demon Slayer in order to raise up Frieren. It's certainly nowhere near as good, but cookie dough ice cream is like, isekai power fantasy trash. To use your analogy, Demon slayer is an alright sandwich, because there's things to be gained from it but it's not as filling and 'nutritional' as Frieren, and even if the components are good they are kept in separate layers.
@@mysmallnomanThere's a reason why people dont like it
@koalabro6118 The comparison is in the taste/entertainment vs. nutritional/intellectual value, not the quality of the work. Being ice cream and a brownie is not a bad thing. I love ice cream and brownies. That will definitely be a satisfying experience. It just won't exactly provide substantial nutritional value. Demon Slayer is perfectly enjoyable, and there is nothing wrong with it not being a super complex show.
It just doesn't have the same level of depth or complexity of storytelling techniques as something like Frieren.
I chose dessert for Demon Slayer to illustrate how tasty and enjoyable it can be, even without highly sophisticated techniques.
I disagree that you can’t gain anything from Demon Slayer
I think its value really lies in being a compilation of role models, I myself am trying to grow into someone like Rengoku Kyojuro. The setting and ”plot” serve as fine vehicles to explore these characters’ more admiarable sides, providing a straightforward and relatively universal basic goal that naturally leads to any number of different dire situations where they’re tested to their breaking point.
So funny seeing these analogies
😂
Muzan and Kagaya did not know each other, and Kagaya wanted to make it clear his ideals and his opposing thoughts, besides they were talking to each other for the first time, and he is in no position to do anything. It was all a trap, spend some more time for dawn, every second matters from now in the Demon Slayer.
Right? Kagaya is literally stalling for time, and the last thing he says is "I didn't think you'd actually listen this long. Thanks Muzan!"
Demon Slayer's main theme has always been Legacy left behind by people. It's a handbook of how people can deal with the circumstances that are handed to them by force as well as a simple concept about life and death that even kids can understand. Writing difficult concepts and make children understand it, is difficult to do. but since its easy to go through, people forget that only few ppl can do this.
This theme has always been consistent from the start. People always dog on demon slayer because of how it can tell a "simple story" but is also the same person that dislikes the dialogues and exposition in demon slayer.
The thing with demon slayer the first time you read/ watch it, You have a first impression on it, But since most of the questions we have will only be answered in the final arcs, the second and third read through will have a different feeling to it, it's the same story but you have a different perspective knowing the POVs of the characters you first met.
Most of what Demon Slayer are Japanese lore and fortunately, I am in love with it so I can recognize this. Demon Slayer incorporates so many mythology in it but it goes over most people's head coz' its a differnet culture and you didn't grow up with it (Like Greek and Norse).
I love Ufotable and what they did for demon slayer. But because they do not have a narrator's voice, some exposition which are impt in the first few arcs were not translated in the anime and gotouge gets shit on it. People donmt want to read the manga but hates on it when they only seen the anime.
For Example
It was narrated in Chapter 52 (s1 Episode 26) of the manga, that Muzan can read and control the mind of any demon he shared his blood with, but Nezuko has broken the spell, because after the Exploding Blood/ s1 Hinokami Kagura, Muzan can't read her mind and wasn't able to see the Ubuyashiki Residence from Nezuko's POV)
(This was a premonition of what Nezuko was actually trying to do which is conquering the sun)
Another is in S2 Episode 6/13, Layered Memories, (Chapter 82) Where Tanjiro forgot to breath. It was explained in the manga that his strength came from his anger. But as a human, he has 2 limits, (Physical Limit and when you pass physical you burn the life force-a premonition also what the demon slayer mark needs). But since Nezuko is a demon these limits doesn't apply to her that why her strength became that of Upper Moon)
Now when you watch the anime and haven't read the manga You're like "How the hell did Tanjiro became Super Saiyan All of the sudden??" But in context, he was burning away his life force which his dead sister warned him.
power up in demon slayer isn't free because they are at the end of the day just humans. The stronger you get the more you burn your life force - Its Equivalent Exchange.
Honestly, it's so easy to hate on demon slayer, I didn't know why I watched the video and be hopeful 🤣
This comment is heaven sent! It’s so frustrating how much is lost to so many people. Demon slayer is so incredibly loaded with folklore and Shinto and buddhist themes that are really well executed and carry so much of the story if one is aware of them. Down to the incorporation of the noh play structure for the whole series, the sun breathing being a Kagura inspired dance and compassion for every being as a Buddhist virtue
Which is -ironically - more shown than told
I think this guy really likes Frieren.
I did get bored while watching Frieren because I am in a period where I want to watch more "active" and eventful series but the points where spot on. I didnt watch a dozen of episode, and indeed there is no comparing the story telling.
I love video essays that enhance my experience of a thing I've watched. I already loved watching Frieren the first time, but after watching this series, I feel like I'll love watching it even more a second time.
I normally LOVE your videos and takes on things. And in general, I love the idea of what you're trying to say here too and agree with you completely... for the most part.
I think using the finale of Demon Slayer's latest season was a VERY poor example as that huge chunk of dialogue between Muzan and Ubuyashiki was NOT really what I would call exposition. Or at least, it wasn't EXPLAINING anything to the audience, which is what I've personally always thought of when I've heard the word exposition. But maybe I'm wrong about the technical definition. But even so, at the very least that whole dialogue wasn't this very unnatural sounding, awkward thing that the in-world characters should know and would never say in real life and are only saying what they are because we the audience "need" to hear it. It was not only a beautiful and very engaging conversation (IMHO) but more importantly, it felt VERY natural and what I believe these 2 characters would've said if they had met each other in real life...
For a good example of what I view as BAD exposition, the very brief scene where we get a flashback of the hashira talking about how there should be some of them serving as bodyguards for the master and Gyomei weirdly mentions how old he was when he became a hashira and how long ago that was... that felt very weird to say and comes off as awkward and unnecessary since all the other hashira should already know that and would never be said if it weren't for the author trying to let us know. THAT is BAD exposition.
And don't get me wrong, Demon Slayer is FULL of bad exposition. But I feel strongly about and stand behind my stance that Muzan and Ubuyashiki's long conversation was NOT bad exposition...
he should watch his own video "Why some people hate the new # 1 anime" 😂
Spoilers for the Demon Slayer Hashira Arc finale
Thanks for sharing your perspective, feels like your criticism comes from a constructive place and I appreciate that. This response will probably get a little defensive but thank you for coming at this from a more constructive place.
I was never trying to argue that the exposition between Muzan and Ubuyashiki was bad. I liked the episode, I enjoyed the information that was presented, and was engaged throughout the episode. But other shows have told entire stories in the half the time that Demon Slayer dedicated to exposition in this episode. We spent 30 minutes of a finale listening to two different characters monologue at one another (It helped a lot that what they were sharing was interesting and setup well, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have been executed better)
I believe Demon Slayer could have presented that same good exposition in a more effective way. That does not mean I think the episode or exposition were bad. The point of the video was to highlight how exposition can be layered among different parts of storytelling structure, I've found I enjoy exposition significantly more when presented that way.
"I think using the finale of Demon Slayer's latest season was a VERY poor example as that huge chunk of dialogue between Muzan and Ubuyashiki was NOT really what I would call exposition. Or at least, it wasn't EXPLAINING anything to the audience, which is what I've personally always thought of when I've heard the word exposition. "
From my perspective, the entire episode was explaining things to the audience. It was just information the audience was incredibly interested in that's been setup for a long time being shared between to characters that had a reason to share it. But the whole premise of Muzan hearing Ubuyashiki out beyond just killing him confuses me, what about Muzan's character indicates restraint? Ubuyashiki even acknowledges that point in the episode, shocked that he was given as much time to speak. But we're never given a reason why Muzan made that decision, which is weird because multiple times through the episode we hear what Muzan is thinking. Meaning the audience has to infer and create head canon as to why Muzan let Ubuyashiki go on his long speech.
"But it kind of frustrates me when you start making unfair comparisons while wearing your biases boldly on your sleeve..."
What about this comparison is unfair? Demon Slayer took 40 minutes to do something Frieren did in 4 minutes. Frieren was able to give interesting and well thought exposition (which I also believe demon slayer did) in less time while also layering in multiple other important factors to the story. I believe I was fair in the way I talked about Demon Slayer in this video.
"But even so, at the very least that whole dialogue wasn't this very unnatural sounding"
I agree that Muzan and Ubuyashiki's long conversation was not bad exposition and there are more extreme examples. I believe episode 8 would have been better if the exposition was placed better, taking less time or offering more to the story outside of the compelling information being shared.
As a guy that enjoys both shows and admits that DS does have some clunky dialogue, I have to agree with @kamikaze.33 on this one. The Muzan and Ubuyashiki finale was a bad example.
"But we're never given a reason why Muzan made that decision, which is weird because multiple times through the episode we hear what Muzan is thinking."
Muzan said that he felt weird talking to the Master. He didn't feel hatred. The Master's special voice was affecting him.
"Demon Slayer took 40 minutes to do something Frieren did in 4 minutes."
This was the first and last conversation between the leaders of two sides that have been fighting for a thousand years.
@@charlan3157 I agree, it wouldn't make much sense if that conversation took only 4 minutes, this is kind of a climatic moment. Also- I'm confused why he keeps bringing up how the conversation took 40 minutes when it actually took only 13 (They start at minute 3, and end at minute 16)
i watched one vid of you so far my man and i have to say the fact that you mention that you use a existing video as a "guideline" and multiple shoutouts is a big W and therefore totally fine to use that as inspiration! also gonna start watching frieren now and i can take a lot of tips for my own cahracter building in my hobby writing from your videos, thanks for that man!
when i first started watching frieren, it felt like a high class written novel.
Bro will find any excuse to talk about frieren beyond journey's. And I love it keep it up man PS that last episode of demon slayer was pretty Epic
Best episode of the season. Partly because this season kinda sucked.
And even then, how many times do we need to hear a whole bunch of different characters just say "master" one by one?
@TheBaldrickk I don't necessarily get the slight hate for the recent season... well I mean, I do. But I like what they did with an originally rushed arc in the manga. By fleshing it out (sorta), we got to learn more about the Hashiras and also see Tanjiro communicate with the other Demon Slayers. Sure, it could've been a movie but I think having this arc as a season was the better solution imo... sorry for typing all of that 💀
@@themoviecritic1092 I think the only thing we learned about any of the Hashira is that Giyu doesn't consider himself worthy, and Stone's backstory.
Forget movie, it could have been covered in one montage.
The only other thing that stood out to me from this season is Zenitsu being just as aggravating and overstepping the comic relief role.
@TheBaldrickk Zenitsu wasn't that bad imo this season, I'm also hyped to see what he's gonna do in the future! Idk man, I didn't mind the slice of life feel this season gave us. Especially with everything coming to an end and all. The Calm Before the Storm and such
@@TheBaldrickkyeah that was the purpose of the season
I want to criticize one part of the criticism on Demon Slayer. The amount of the finale that is spent talking is extremely purposeful and hardly meant for exposition. There is constant character depth shown in Muzan. We barely get to see him for any significant length, and this conversation with Ubuyashiki is from his perspective in his own thoughts. His character is well rounded out here before the final arch begins. I would say the personally that the flashbacks after the action starts that break it up are better examples of your criticisms. The actual conversation is far more than just exposition and also is something the series has been hugely building to. To say that it’s an issue for so much of the episode to be that conversation implies that dialogue is a problem or is just boring in between for action, which I know you do not believe.
True. Demon Slayer's story writing is a little more on the weaker side, truly simple & bland. But the character writing is actually great, they managed to make me care about almost every single character and even those who are in the bottom of my Demon Slayer character list still somehow made me feel greatly emotional about them.
In addition, this last episode wasn't the Step 1 in exposition, it was the culmination of all the things that have been inferred and hinted at throughout the show since season one.
@@AMercenary...Withaheart I would say the plot is simple and bland but not really the story considering there are plot driven and character driven stories of which demon slayer fits more into the latter.
The characters in this case move the story forward and represent it while the plot simply feels like climbing the power ladder until they reach the big bad but I don't mind as much tho.
Or they could have shown this in pieces rather than throwing everything at the end. I don't know but demon slayer kinnda feel rushed at the end. i heard somewhere that the aurthor was getting married.
@@Avinashkumar-rg7cu How would they show the final confrontation between Muzan and Ubuyashiki in pieces? Ubuyashiki is literally stalling. He even tells Muzan "I didn't think you'd actually listen to me for this long. Thanks Bro"
I'm glad these videos are getting traction. One of the reasons I love Frieren is that it isn't just a great story, it's a great vehicle to talk about stories. It makes me happy to think that due to its popularity many people are watching Frieren, finding these videos or both, and are learning to love doing just that.
Some strong Thomas Flight inspiration going on here, with your "in praise of..." title.
Hope your analysis chops are as good as his.
This is comparing apples and oranges. As Mercenary says below, the relationship dynamics in the two anime are completely different. When Muzan meets Ubayashiki for the first and last time, there is a great deal that they (or the one) can only say directly to each other because they have no "relationship" as such - they are sworn enemies and one is about to kill the other. Similarly, the flashbacks in that ep of DS convey information that needs to be conveyed in conversation -ie. why does Ubayashiki have no bodyguards, why is Gyomei present, what is Tamayo doing, etc.
Frieren does the demon slaying part better than demon slayer but so far the anime adaptation hasn't reached that point yet. Once macht and solitare gets animated, the general audiences will have a better understanding of demons in frieren. Also denken's dedication needs to be praised that guy was already a very solid character in the mage exam arc. But in El dorado is where he truly shines as one of the best characters in the entire series. Which is a big achievement since beyond journey's end is already filled with plenty of good characters
You can't really say that when the DS demons are more like vampires.
And that's both a defense and attack on DS cause why? (Probs cause demon slayer sounds cooler than vampire slayer?, or maybe since that time period didn't have knowledge on vamps that they decided to call it the closest thing they know? But if then why not oni? Hell if i know its what ive been thinking for a while)
@@mikerotch2066 Are you stupid? They're literally called oni. "Demon" is just localization thing.
@@mikerotch2066DS demons are more mutant than anything else
@@VictorParisLlana You wanna explain? Cause how?
@@mikerotch2066your comment literally countered none of op’s points
I want to recommend a book to you: "Japanese Mythology in Film"(2015) by Okuyama Yoshiko. While Demon Slayers writing is very on the nose, its themes are very much inspired by buddhist beliefs. You can see it everywhere from monsterdesigns, characterdesigns and plot points. So for an interpretation the cultural context is key for understanding works such as Demon slayer. For example in the conversation between Muzan and Ubuyashiki, the concept of karma is deeply intertwined into their dialogue. Punishment by gods, passing of life cycles, symbolism of snakes, symbolism of the zodiac signs, these are just a few of the layerd elements. You said its simpel exposition of information the viewer has not learned yet, but my opinion is very different, its a layered philosophical diskussion that underlines the beliefs of the two opposing sides, demons versus humans, which characterizes all the other characters and gives weight to the ultimate sacrafice Ubuyashiki is making in the following scene.
Im not trying to critcise you, but its pretty obvious that you prefere a very certain typ of filmmaking. Well your videos are called "Exploring Frieren" ... and thats totally okay, but it makes you biased in your analysis.
During the exposition in demon slayer, ubayashiki is giving muzan and even the audience a false sense of security and giving the hashera time to close the distance to his home. It also freaks out muzan for a moment of how calm he and his family were moments before dying in an explosion, which in turn gave the doctor a chance to pin muzan and poison him. He also said that he had finished saying all he ever wanted to say to muzan, so there is a story reason for him to talk anyway. That episode wasn't only exposition. It was an elaborate ruse to hide their plan and intent.
Frieren was my revelation show. I did not expect much other than just your run of the mill fantasy anime, and I found a master piece.
One Piece Live Action is another show with some very cleverly integrated exposition, particularly episode 7's "You're smarter than people give you credit for." scene, which gives the viewer nuggets of information about the world's political situation in the form of a tense standoff.
If frieren wasnt an anime and instead is available to watch on mainstream channels it would definitely be much bigger. Its such a beautifully written story. I tend to have attention issues but frieren, even with its dialogue heavy episode is able to intrigue me every second. I hope they release a season 2 soon! Honestly one of the best anime this decade
Pey you missed the point of entirely kagaya /ubuyahiki it wasn't pointless yapping it was about philosophy on eternity..
This was a case where telling was telling more with SUBTEXT when he asked him if all demons will die if muzan is killed and muzan got upset
And that ties to him on him dreaming about living eternally which he then brings up humanities intangible eternity that doesn't die when you kill on individual
I don't think I said that any of the exposition was pointless yapping. But it does seem like I did a bad job getting the point I was trying across. Basically everything they talked about this episode was a satisfying answer to questions that have been building up the entire season. I think felt this video was more of a criticism of demon slayer than I had intended. I wasn't trying to say that demon slayers exposition was bad. I was trying to advocate for exposition that is layered with other parts of the story. As far as exposition goes I, and many other people, seemed to enjoy the conversation. There are just great shows that have captured that same experience in less time while also serving the sorry in other ways. Thanks for sharing your perspective
Hard disagree with the video, man. Demon Slayer did well with it's finale. There was a lot of stuff they didn't tell you, but you could infer with previous actions of characters. Like why Ubayashiki's wife and children died with him. They don't tell you outright, but you can make solid assumptions like how Ubayashiki is a good dude and didn't want them to die with him, but they knew if they were gone when Muzan got there, it'd give away what they were planning, so they chose to die alongside him. Which also showed their love for him. Of course the story doesn't tell you this outright, but with previous exposition of showing Ubayashiki caring for others, you could infer this knowledge on your own.
Not just that, but I'm also tired of people complaining every time a character gives vocal exposition. If all exposition was showing and not telling, it would be extremely tiring having to decipher everything on our own. Sometimes telling us the info we need can allow us to rest our minds instead of constantly having to figure things out for ourselves. Not everyone wants to be shown only and have to put everything together on their own.
I love how there's not too much focus on making characters' actions explicit. My own epiphany was realizing when and where Frieren obtained the countermagic to magic barriers.
demon slayer is easy to digest. Its straightforward. And the animation is good.
U can enjoy it without much thinking.
meanwhile frieren is anime that u enjoy in ur free time, in very casual and chill time because u need to digest what happen, and absorb all information that they showing, subtly or confrontly.
both are good in their own way. But yea, if u comparing about story telling, frieren was difinitely better.
KnY is like children artbooks in comparison in terms of story telling. (a good way of meaning it tbh, I dont say children artbooks is not good)
Frieren is not that deep people just like to pretend it is
The thing about demon slayer is you don’t think about it, you just enjoy the anime/manga.
that's because the second you start thinking about literally anything in the demon slayer anime or manga the story and worldbuilding completely fall apart.
@@johndoe3307
No. I disagree.
Its enjoyable without a grand message.
There’s friendship, family love, a typical good vs evil storyline.
Its just simple. It does not make you reflect it on your life. Its written in that way.
I don’t see how the story / worldbuilding falls apart.
I think its pretty consistant. A typical vampire story.
@@deviceaccount5277 ok here are a few questions:
1. Why is there no intervention from any governmental bodies? Given the amount of damage caused, amount of time the demon slayer corps and demons have been around they should be known by outside parties.
2. Why haven't any of the Hashira worked together to battle any of the upper moons until now?
3. Why is Nezuko treated like a pet more than an actual human. Does she not have any agency of her own? Why doesn't she act in any way other than as a Deus ex machina to save Tanjiro.
4. Why is there no experimentation on the story's supernatural powers?
5. Why is Tanjiro written to be the most perfectest goodest boy? He has no faults. Even simple things like him breaking his sword all the time is just written off as Hotaru's fault for being a shitty smith.
6. Why is Genya the only gun user? Giving the corps grunts guns would easily make the corps much more effective against the demons without having to spend nearly as much time, money and effort on training. So why are they used in large numbers or even as a side arm for the Hashira?
7. Why are there no consequences? The demon slayer corps let an entire village full of civilians get wiped out and nothing ever comes from it. An event with so many witnesses should get the local and foreign governments interested as well as power hungry and opportunistic actors. Shouldn't these outside parties attempt to take the demons power for themselves? Shouldn't there be a public outcry at the demon slayer corps for allowing all that destruction. Wouldn't it be pretty hard for the demons and corps to remain as obscure groups with all that attention?
8. Why did Muzan make no effort to eliminate his enemies all this time? Is there a limit to how many demons he can make and if so why not make as many as he can?
9. If Genya can eat a demon and gain supernatural powers why has no other character done this?
10. What makes Nezuko so special that she goes against litterally everything we learned about demons? From becoming stronger despite not consuming any humans, to out of nowhere being able to withstand the sun, to gaining new powers and stronger regeneration abilities despite starving this entire time.
I could go on all day really.
@@johndoe3307
You said the story completely falls apart if anyone thinks about it.
Then complained about some stuffs.
First of all you have to remember you are not the author here. You can write whatever you want. But most important thing is what the autor wants.
About the list of things you cited......i think you wrote whatever came to your mind in that moment, you did not thought about it properly.
Here's why i think that.
1. Why there’s no intervention from the government. They are a secret group. Both the demons and the demons hunters. I think that's enough. Many series does the exact same thing Like JJK.
& all the fights generally do not take place in any crowded place & in night. Its even possible that government does not exist properly in that series. You Can't think of oth the government and night the same way, when there’s no information about it.
It can be anything.
2. Reasons are given in the manga.
the area is huge & not that many hasiras. In the anime ( 4th season) you can see Obenai and Sanemi both hasiras are working together. plus the whole 4th season is all about hasiras training.
come on, man.
3. Nezuko, a pet.......i don’t get it. ok whatever, so what. its character. its like me saying why zenitsu is like that.......that kind of reasoning is very bad. You have to write your own manga if you dont like a character.
4. No experiments???
i mean.....
Muzan is literally a product of a medicine.
& How do you think Muzan died??
supernatural, experiment.....okk here's the character name : TAMAYO
5. Why tanziro perfect?
Because the Author wrote him to be.
thats it. Its a character.
& Tanjiro thinks the sword breaks because he is not good enough.
its in the anime,... man.
6. Gun?? There’s no information. You can't say like gun is better than swords. we don’t know that. Guns suit genya. it does not mean that others will be more comfortable with guns.
You have to think about material, manufucturing, nichirin bullet. will it do anything against stronger demons?
You have to remember genyas guns also become stronger because he becomes a literally demon.
its not necessary for a author to give all those information.
7. First off all both groups are secret. Secondly they work in nights.
okk, a entertainment village wiped out. Not a big deal. Not many people knows knows about demon slayer. It took muzan 1000 years to find out demon slayer Corp's headquarter. so, good luck.
All of those things are extra information. You can write a couple page about it. But it has no effect on the story.
Jujutsu kaisan did the exact same thing. A couple of pages for US military personals. thats it. Extra information.
8. Muzan tried but failed & its not his first priority. why not? You have to ask Muzan not me. The guy wants to be immortal. Blue lily, yuricchi, power dynamic, hidden base. many reasons.
Why does not he make more demons. first he does not want to. The only reason he makes demons its because of that flower. Another thing more demon does not means more powerful demons. Okk, he makes ten thousand demon & a hasira comes & they are all dead. Again hasiras are always killing demons. so,....
Another thing, he does not want to create a demon army so that he can rule, he just wants to be immortal. thats it. Thats Muzan's character.
9. Genyaya can eat demon. so, what? its because of his blood line. why not more characters. Because, the author wrote that way. Can, Sanemi do the same as ganyaya?? No idea....
probably yes. But why Sanemi has to do that? He can choose not to.
10. Why nezuko so special. Its just is. Plot armor. Something happened. Thats it. Not everything has to have a reason. why nezuko is like that?? no one knows.
See, you can probably go all day. But its not a problem that the story has. its how you view the story. In this stroryline some of the things are unknown. So, what??
I Can criticise any series like that. its not enough to the worldbuilding to fall apart.
@@johndoe3307
The most important thing i want to say is I wrote all those because i was bored. I could actually say that you have to properly explain how the worldbuilding falls apart.
That you did not do in your reply. So, please if you really thing that way.... You have to explain it properly. You cant just talk about a character or how a incident's effect is not felt in the stroline. When subtly its already given..... You can't complain about less information either.
You have to build your case properly.
I love this video! Some anime makes dialogs seem like endless meetings. If I want to watch meetings I will head to work.
Frieren IS a really good anime, but judging by the comments its already gotten to the dreaded anime stage of ''This anime got so popular so fast that the fans are snobs who think they're the smartest people in the room for liking a certain anime''
How so?
This video was actually really helpful for me. It was nice to hear actual good critisim and I'm a very passionate demon slayer fan. I have taken up writing with my own fanfic of sorts and it has truly opened my eyes to the unseen components of writing, just another reason why this was helpful. Demon Slayer follows a more basic form of story telling and this one is more complex story telling. But being basic or complex in itself doesn't inherently define if its good or bad. Each of us are also our own person, whether you like basic or complex story telling comes down to preference. Undeniably, both shows execute their style of story telling really well. Otherwise Demon Slayer wouldn't have its popularity, and I specify DS to counter your point on DS's writing.
Anyway, just another random commentor here, great video!
I bow to you, Sir for these videos! I have show depression after watching Frieren. I can't find so well-crafted and excecated story even among the real live shows, so I keep watching reaction videos to Beyond journey's ends. Hopefully Arcane s2 will help me lift this depression.
I kinda disagree with some parts of this video. Telling is not less or more better than showing. The problem with the whole show vs tell thing is you can't do this a lot and all the time. Tanjiro’s dedication is shown and not told. A lot of parts of the writing is shown and not told. Also there was a reason Ubuyashiki was monologuing at Muzan. He wanted to live rent free in that man's mind, and he did so by breaking down his fears and desires, while buying time for Himejime and Tamayo to get ready for the plan.
I think this analysis is a bit disconnected from the story itself. If you take the character motivations and relationships behind the exposition in Demon Slayer, its actually quite good. It served the purpose of creating a trap, and it did feel like a genuine manifesto from ubuyashiki to Muzan. I can believe it would sound scripted, because it was. It was what he always imagined himself saying, while playing into a story device- the trap
nah frieren is an actual master piece tho fr
one thing i don't like in comparsions like that is lack of optics on who might take it as some kind of levrege point in discussion which anime is better, because in my opinion at least, simple isn't inferior to complex it all depends on how you use it. you may get simple but easy to get involved in stories everybody likes , or stuff so complex only brain roten veterans might understand while calling anyone who don't an idiot and there is no way of grading which is better.
demon slayer is that relible easy to digest spectacle you watch to enjoy the ride and it does spoonfeed you stuff from time to time but not in obnoxious way there are much better examples of contradicting show not tell rule
frieren is an layered cake but it is also very simple story but it is very retrospective like watching wikipedia link after link on each page to understand the one you interested in
but they are both good stories full of fleshed out characters you can relate too and they both know how to play out theyre good sides
This. Friern is magnificent but imo people who think DS is only good for its spectacle or animation don't really know what is and isn't good writing or at least have a very limited view of it.
Well said
I like how you also talked about different vids that I might wanna watch.
To be fair the author from what I know had to rush the finale of demon slayer due to her I think father was very ill or close to end and in order to be there she had to rush through everything since they wouldn’t let her leave or have a break
If I could go back in time, I'd tell the author to not choose weekly Shonen jump as her manga publisher and instead choose a publisher magazine that works better for her or to fight for her leave and to make sure to lay all of the world building first to make sure that the story makes sense and is better than how it is today.
Imagine the writing of Freiren on a show full of tension like JJK or Naruto or Onepiece? I can't even imagine how good of a show that would be...
As always great analisys i agree with. I have nothing to add on for Frieren. But I'm gonna defend Demon Slayer a bit. It is true that Demon Slayer is simple in writing, an its main focus is not on writing. But i give merit to it for its explaination are easy to understand, long enough to clarify any doubt, precise and coherent. Thare are a lot of other series that do much worse at this, with short, twisted, complicated and sommaire explainations that often results in confusion (Jujutsu Kaisen im looking at you)
Fr tho, Shinjuku showdown's Sukuna raid is rushed
I'd be interested in your opinion about how the Monogatari Series fits into this dynamic in your opinion. The story is almost exclusively told in conversations with very few "show" scenes in between, yet it's a far stretch to call it a stereotypical story.
Frieren is the only anime where I never caught myself writing more compelling and natural dialogue in my head in real time as I watched. I am not a writer.
I’ve heard that translation teams f up lines to make them match the mouth movements of the characters, and I really hope that isn’t true because wtf even. But I also don’t know how else to explain the average writing quality of Japanese media I’ve been exposed to.
I love when my writing UA-camrs praise and know of each other 😊🎉😊
Love love loveeee your videos!
I love both Demon Slayer and Frieren, both are amazing but for different reasons.
People should learn how to derive enjoyment from art instead of being in this constant state of comparing everything to each other and labeling things as "trash" or "overrated"
Well said
W comment 🔥
True “Comparison is the thief of joy” and all.
I think the best example for this would be wheel of time and Lord of the Rings. Like Lord of the Rings begins with telling you Bilbo's having his birthday party versus wheel of times crazy beginning PS that thumbnail looks awesome. Great video man
bro there is so many ways to write a story, this guy is just saying if its not written like frieren its a shit anime, demon slayer has perfect exposition that fit what the story want to tell, it has more action so and more edge, so u cant use the boring slow pacing exposition that frieren do.
@@Assassins6688 slow pacing is boring when the writer isn't skilled enough. good writing makes for a good story, regardless of pacing. and just because a story is fast paced doesn't mean it can't have slow scenes. you'll get tired of it if the story was action packed 100% of the time and never slowed down.
@@hypno4811 Its not about skill its about narrative, Demon Slayer is a revenge story slow pace will be horrible for it, u will lose the edge and the hype and the importance of getting the bad guy killed, its has to be direct and straightforward someone killed ur family and going from town to town collecting useless spills?
You guys need to understand that a show can have simple storytelling and it can be okay. Shows don't need to have complicated stories to be compelling
There's a conversation in the first John Wick where Michael Nyqvist's Russian crime boss character delivers this story to his soon-to-be-dead son about how his actions have made him the target of an assassin who he likens to a monster out of folklore, this three-episode arc of Frieren gave me a similar sensation and largely through visuals. This goofy ancient toddler elf we've been following hasn't exactly been toothless thus far, but this arc reframes her from the Demons' perspective as their own personal Baba Yaga.
Most of the spoken exposition provided serves to tell us why from her perspective Frieren can justify killing these creatures so unsympathetically.
"Strategising: Chess vs Rugby"
YES! I love how you were able to break this down. I often struggle with defining what makes some exposition more acceptable, palatable, or just generally better than other examples.
Also, I've read the comments and it gave me a chuckle how you replied to several people jumping in to defend Demon Slayer. You're so non-confrontational. As someone who watched Demon Slayer not once but twice trying to understand the praise some people give it, it has some real problems. It has its moments, but it is, on average, incredibly flawed in my opinion.
while i agree that Demon Slayer’s narrative isnt as well written by Frieren, i can see why the finale was filled with a lot of yapping instead of being just exposition… it was literally just distraction for Muzan so the explosion can be set in place as well as an opportunity for Ubuyashiki to cut deep into Muzan’s insecurities as he faces his own impending death due to his curse
I don't see that as a valid excuse given that the author can simply alter the story. the author didn't have to write the plan to involve an excuse for them to dump 30 minutes of yapping.
@@johndoe3307it wasn't 30 minutes though
@@johndoe3307 hey man idk where you got the sense that im excusing anything. im just offering an alternate take on why the episode was written that way
it wasnt exactly “30 minutes of yapping” either because that’s the entire episode already lol
@@theanimerapper6351 i was being sarcastic
If you see hate, they're probably still in the honey moon phase. Imo the final part of the ep was great(full of hype, they took too much time in the dialog.
I haven’t seen Frieren, but I have seen the entirety of Demonslayer (not the manga). I started watching Demonslayer because of the visuals, animation, and character design. I stayed for that reason, and I was kinda intrigued by the story. The world that Demonslayer is set in is very interesting in my opinion, but it’s kinda gone to waste by the lack of solid writing. But nontheless, I do enjoy the characters and the show for its amazing animation.
I will definitely put Frieren on my watchlist now!
Dude. It's been months since I saw your channel. Good thing I found it again.
Frieran is my favourite new anime and I absolutely love it for the same reasons you mentioned but the whole point of Frieran is 'storytelling' that's why it's doing so. While other anime like Demon Slayers is just a 'story'.
We can also look at it from another perspective like the character Frieran has abundance of time, she's not in any hurry. And therefore the story itself isn't hurrying either. While, the demon slayers are all on a timer. And in that particular episode, Ubuyashiki was a few seconds away from death. So shouldn't the storytelling be different from the former? Maybe, like more direct and fast paced.
Demon Slayer does not strive for depth, its story is refreshingly simple, characterized by direct and easily understandable scenes. The narrative moves swiftly, seamlessly integrating its captivating animation and evocative musical score to create a cinematic masterpiece in its own right. In contrast, Frieren: Beyond Journey's End takes a more contemplative approach to storytelling, unfolding its tale at a deliberate pace akin to a slow burn, which enhances the beauty of its themes. These two series exemplify different styles of narrative craftsmanship, each tailored to appeal to distinct audiences.
The difference between DS and Frieren is simply the difference between shounen battle manga (the classic big 3, Fairy Tail and Toriko aka highly disposable content made strictly for kids) and slice of life (Kaguya-sama, Komi can't and Konosuba) which are meant for adults, atleast highschoolers who can be bothered to put a thought into the content they are watching.
I just think these two animes/mangas were meant for two completely different sorts of audience. Demon Slayer is a very simple story with a very single-minded villain who is the roots of all evil and he is the one dude that the protags need to beat then the story ends. You do not need insane storytelling or absurd Inception-esque plot to make it work, that is why the budget can be spent on amazing animations and splend artistic spectaculars. The "monologue" thingy WORKS because the story is simple enough that the audience won't get bored (and because there are so few instances of "exposition dump" like that in the first place) so yeah the big bad guy showed how evil he is IN STYLE, and the kids will be awed. Ofc DS is def carried by its amazing animations because... there is nothing else to spend the budget on literally.
Meanwhile Frieren is a very complex story that juggles mutiple difficult themes like the meaning of life, what does love mean and how much is enough aka stuffs that you HAVE to focus on and risk the audience's boredom. Kids will never understand this so forget about it, meaning your audience is restricted to adults or atleast highschoolers (age 16 or above) who will stick around just a bit longer and see what are you on about. There isn't much budget left for animations considering the cost of marketing is insanely high already (DS can skip the marketing part because it was the most popular manga in the early 2020s) and the writing team has to be paid handsomely for the anime to work.
So yeah basically KnY is your classic 3.50 hot dog that you can buy on every street pretty much every single day while Frieren is that really tasty beef wellington that might cost up to 100 bucks depends on where you are having it. They should not be compared to each other tbh I think Frieren's comparision should be the likes of Berserk or HxH, really complex pieces of work that ain't for everybody. KnY is similar to JJK very simple story focusing on big explosions with elementary level plot if you are comparing KnY to Frieren then imho you are doing sth wrong.
never compare frieren with hxh or beserk lmao, isn't even better than fma
This is the hundred time i see and hear a Frieren and Demon Slayer comparison, both from the internet and my circle of friends and each time if it was about the writing or plot I roll my eyes and it is no different here. I like Frieren a heck of a lot more than demon slayer, but holy shit am i the only one who can see that comparing or using 2 shows with differently design concepts and world structure to be a bad way to make your point. Demon Slayer is in no way meant to have the same level of depth as Frieren, it is a simple story meant for a causal Audience. You don't compare that simple design to something that is meant to be more complex and deep. The demons in both series are as different as fire and water, one has little to no emotion and thinks logically while having instinct to do evil, and the other is burning with raw emotions and little chances to to be anything but monsters they are force to be it. Again meant for 2 very different plots and themes here.
I like Shonen like Soul eater, Naruto, One Piece, Jojo, yu yu hakusho, Dragon ball/z (not Super), JJK, But will I make a point for deep story telling or comparing them to a show that is not meant to be fun act? No. That would he stupid. I would used another show that IS meant to be deep but did it poorly and compare what worked and what didn't.
Exactly, finally someone gets it.
This guy in the video is trying to appear all sage and intelectual by comparing peas to bananas.
I love both Frieren and Demon Slayer, discovered both while they had no anime expectations, read the manga of both and find both great works. But they are not comparable, as in, they are not the same thing. They serve different purposes and target different audiences and I beg to say they are both different genres.
For me Demon Slayer in an action shonen with slice of life bits, while Frieren is a slice of life seinen with action bits (though it's published by a shonen magazine).
Demon Slayer is supposed to be fun, fast, and with some gut wrenching moments here and there. Like you said, it's more for the casual viewer. While Frieren is supposed to be slow, submerge you while it goes, and make you think.
And though I do not mean to bash Frieren, I, personally, am not a fan of the anime. I think Frieren truly shines as a reading piece, the art is beautiful, and the pause, and pondering moments are SO good in manga. Truly a masterpiece. Even if ufotable made Frieren I would have the same opinion because the battles in Frieren for me are inconsequential. For me what shines in Frieren are the silent moments.
I would say that Frieren is in the same league as Mushishi, also one of my all time favs.
When it comes to Demon Slayer the manga is fine with me, I really enjoyed it the first time I read it because I fell in love with the characters and their stories, but the animation truly took it to another level, making it one of the best action anime I have watched. And I rarely watch anime because I find myself usually prefering the manga way more than the anime adaptation. Even when it comes to action manga/anime. For example, I much prefer the Naruto manga, than the anime (though I watched/read both).
They are both enjoyable and great in what they are and one can like one more than another or both equally without the need to compare what doesn't need or beg comparison.
Same thoughts.
Well, these comparisons happens because the demon slayers' aggressive fans claim that Demon Slayer is incredibly deep, existence fulfilling story, as shown.... By the sales. It being that it is simple is not what the fandom thinks. Tell them that it's a simple story and you'll be crucified.
@@shoujoru To me fair that is basically all fandom that want their piece of media to be looked at in a good light. I have seen many people try try to make DBZ look like a deep show on occasion. But that is generally a vocal minority compared to the whole.
@@shoujoru I don't think I've ever encountered Demon Slayer fans pretending it's some super deep story. Maybe that's a thing on youtube shorts or tiktok, but not in any serious discussion. This feels more like it's fans of "better anime" being bitter that something as simple as Demon Slayer is so popular.
No one is pretending Dragon Ball is some deep philosophical work of art, so I don't know why people keep getting defensive about Demon Slayer when it's closer to Dragon Ball than Frieren.
Nice vid
A lot of people give Demon Slayer the written badly tag without every really saying the reason.
It may not be as good as frieren when it comes to writing but its still pretty good i dont get how it has "Bad writing"
It's because it's writing is fairly simple - there are complexities hidden here and there and only be paying close attention do you see them, but viewing it casually you might miss them. However, because of it's overall simple structure, you're not feeling like you're missing anything, cause the most important things are told to us over and over again. Demon Slayer has some very beautiful writing hidden in small scenes, but overall chooses mostly to present the things that happen in a very direct manner.
@@siamath9954 but that all doesn't mean I had bad writing exposition like that doesn't mean that the writing is bad a simple plot doesn't mean a bad one
@@tobiclarence5236 Yeah, exactly. But people tend to confuse that.
It is bad. For example, the author first approached sun breathing as something to be researched, but then immediately gave up and had Tanjiro able to use it from remembering his father's dance. An example of just plain bad writing would be how Tanjiro's sense of smell is incredible to the point of smelling abstract concepts, which was weird but not out of place in manga, but then he can't smell Daki when she enters the room immediately after he left, to the point that the poor girl asked whether or not Tanjiro had forgotten something before turning around and seeing the demon.
I could keep going on and on about it. I'll admit the animation is beautiful and if you just want to enjoy pretty colours and turn your brain off Demon Slayer is fine, but I've yet to find anyone who was able to give examples of why it's good beyond that... but I could spend all night typing about why it's bad. I gave it far more than it deserved, watching three seasons twice looking for the genius, but it only got worse on rewatch. I well and truly do not understand the praise it gets.
@@OhmIsFutile No I'm not sure you understand that part tanjiro just knew it as a dance from his father passed down from generation to generation so he wanted to know if any of the hasira knew anything about it, then he meet rengoku the perfect person to ask in his mind but he didn't know anything but his dad did that's why he sent tanjiro to his estate and even after the estate rengoku's father sent tanjiro a letter with further info on it and after that he decided to not to bother about it to much but to start to use it practically as they are in the middle of a war. You should notice things like this.
And then I almost get you on the smell thing but things like that exist across all supernatural anime I mean frieren can summon a freaking black hole how are you angry that he can smell if someone is angry.
The fact you don't understand is on you it doesn't mean it's bad writing
Sorry the spellings are a bit wrong.
But your video doesn't explain the flaw in the episode of DS.
(I haven't seen Ferien so no comment.)
I think you didn't understand the purpose of Muzan and Ubyashiki's talk. It was the hero and archenemies finally having a convo about their differences.
It was needed and was supposed to bound to happen at some point as it was build up.
I think bcs you were busy comparing with your favorite that you overlooked the storyline till that point.
Really gassing up Frieren like this while being too stupid for KnY 💀 Well, anitubers never disappoint
I totally need you to talk about the first episode of to your eternity…
I think that the scene from Demonslayer wasn't the best choice for an example. It was one of the better moments of the show and used suspense quite well. In addition, one could assume that one side was savouring their triumph while the other side was stalling time. The plot twist came as surprising as fast it happened and it was interesting to see the big bad complaining about the other sides morals...
I love Demon Slayer for its simplicity, and at the same time, I also love Frieren for its complexity. Both have their own strengths, weaknesses, and uniqueness.
That's why I don't understand the nonsense arguments of both fans-overpraising the anime they prefer while downplaying the other. Why be such a close-minded fan; choosing only one like your life depends on it? Is choosing DS making you a "person that likes popular or mainstream anime, which makes you cool to the normies eyes"? Or does choosing Frieren make you a "deep person and different from other fans who watch overhyped anime"?
I think people forget the other option that you can choose both. Yes, it's possible to like both; there's nothing wrong with that. As a person who sometimes wants to watch blood pumping hype action that can rollercoaster your emotions and sometimes wants a deep and thought-provoking story that you can reflect on, Damn, I'm so lucky that I can watch and enjoy them both.
4:24 The start of "layered exposition" explaination.
not to mention you know the demon isn't really dead until we get a flashback of its backstory XD
I starting to think this pey guy really likes the frieren anime
unfair comparison to the point of pointlessness.
I would use english dub in stuff like this
What a great series
I think it would be neat to have a compare and contrast for exposition from the '03 version of FMA, vs Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood. In my personal view, '03 does a lot of its exposition through characters standing around and having a dialog about the nature of the world or the themes. The flow gets paused to have a character show up and explain what is happening and what themes are at play
Whereas FMAB instead has characters react to a plot point, which in turn informs their own decisions in moulding the plot. Information about the universe seems more discovered or uncovered rather than told to the audience. I can't exactly put my finger on it, since even though some of the exposition and discoveries are revealed in dialogue, it flows more naturally
hold up, let me hear him cook
Demon Slayer and Frieren are just two wildly different types of storytelling. I prefer Demon slayer out of the two because I prefer the faster pace and the humanity; everyone in Frieren seems a little too much like Frieren herself; too calm, too sedate and too slow. Slower pacing is kind of the point of the show since the MC is so long-lived, so I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing. I do admit that the writing in Frieren is definitely deeper and more profound, but both shows are handled competently.
I think since both Demon Slayer and Frieren are of very high quality production-wise, it becomes a matter of personal taste. I think Frieren is more technically brilliant, but Demon Slayer is ultimately going to be a more popular choice due to its simpler story, faster pace and more colorful characters.
fake deep.. Just enjoy what you like when you come back from work and grab yourself a beer or any beverage
Well said
I know this video is about frieren, and i dont think demon slayer is better than frieren, but i want to defend episode 8
I think the exposition worked very well in the muzan ubuyashiki conversation scene. Why? Suspense.
This is (from my memory) the first time muzan has ever had a proper conversation with a human (not as an alternate identity). We are looking at the strongest demon we know, having a conversation with a guy who can barely sit up straight. Muzan could have killed him at any moment but he didnt. So this then begs the question of why. Why doesnt muzan just kill him? What beef does muzan have with the ubuyashikis, and exactly who are the ubuyashikis. These questions would be answered within this scene.
Nothing is happening, its just two people talking. But it is TENSE.
Not to mention the children singing in the background half way through to create an eerie chilling vibe.
Take a different show that has HEAVY exposition in spring, tensura s3. The exposition there did not work at all because it was literally just people talking. No interesting visuals, no tension, not even any real interesting lore drops. If we're talking about actual yapping tensura s3 cour 1 is it.
Demon slayer's writing isnt the best but it WORKS. A lot of it has to do with the INSANE adaptation, but without at least decent source material, your godly adaptation doesnt mean shit
Frieren is mid but solid
I mean aot kindve did the same thing as demon slayer with the reveal of the secrets in the basement. Does it mean the writing is bad?
Ufotable is the reason why Demon Slayer is big in the first place without them the anime would not be popular. It was a joke that Demon Slayer won the best fantasy award at the anime awards last year!
Ooh I just watched the Thomas Flight video~
Can't wait for Monster vs One piece video 🔥.
Feels bad seeing you use demon slayer. From the moment the start it was clear that the story is like a slice of cake not much substance but pretty and sweet.. I guess I just like this kinda vedio but it still feels surface level .. I look forward to seeing more in depth vedios
Am I the only who tears up the more I think about the show?
Poor exposition can also seem preachy like in oshi no ko.
It was a fun, dramatic, unexpected ride, but they all but break the 4th wall chastising trolls and expecting stars (specifically idols) to be ideals. It's not inappropriate in that online bullying had just occurred and we needed the characters to react to it, but instead of having them discuss concerns or whatnot, one character was ignorant while a different character lectures about the horrors that can occur.
The acting, characters, and mood are worth it, but I can't help but think of Pey's essays when it's flaws take center stage.
Thomas Flight has great videos
I’m trying to watch a show right now (key word: trying) called Bye Bye Earth. I have no prior knowledge of any manga source material, so I have absolutely no idea what’s going on. It annoys me when I watch a show and it seems like it’s only for ppl who already know the story. 5 episodes in and I still don’t quite understand “the point”. I guess this is also an exposition problem, I’ve spent the entirety of each episode trying to figure out who ppl are, what their goals are, what their titles mean, what similarities to what’s familiar to me exist, etc, that I can’t just lose myself in the story. It feels like I’m having to be in my head too much to really enjoy it. I think that’s a writing problem, but maybe it’s just not my cup of tea so it’s just me. Idk.
Finally someone who agrees that Demon Slayer is carried by the visuals, audio, choreography and like general aura and that its writing is really really shallow! 😭
Like most people I know either just say it's great or complete dog water but like, it's its own beast of its own. The shallow story line is actually played as a strength because it gives space for the Ufotable to fill in and completely dominate the story telling through their ridiculously good cinematography which actually creates another layer of engagement and leaves your breath just… taken away. It's using its medium to it s highest potential in my opinion, and that in and on itself is already a hallmark of a good story because it makes use of its medium to the point that no matter how hard you tried to represent it in another medium, would always consistently fall short of the original work unless you completely overhauled the entire work itself.
1:07 i'd like to explore frieren too, ngl
Thank you for sharing 😊