And yes, you can cover up the hand sensor to let the stick move freely around on its own at full force! Here's a demonstration of that with Episode 1 Racer on the FFB2 that just arrived: twitter.com/lazygamereviews/status/1682444490009726984
Unfortunately, that particular adapter is _only_ designed for the non-FFB sticks like the Precision Pro. Hence the need for custom microcontroller projects today :)
@@LGR that is a bit of a bummer one of these days I’m going to get my FFB version going because I had always wanted FFB but when they were current but costs kept it out of reach I got the non FFB version and it was a great stick well into my university years.
@@LGR Oooh please post a little update if you ever manage to get your hands on a USB adapter for this thing, that'd be really awesome! (Like the USB4VC project you covered on Blerbs - I'm really glad you did because that's such a freaking amazing thing to have and I'm glad I got one!)
Microsoft really owes us a reissue or new version of this joystick. What are they doing releasing such a kick-ass flightsim and NOT have a stick like this on the market!
"What are they doing" That's a question you could ask Microsoft about a LOT of their damn products these days. Microsoft quality has gone to shit now, ever since the release of Windows 10.
It boggles the mind. The new Flightsim release downright emptied all the stores of all flightsticks! And pushed the prices up for all that was left, like that warthog stick. You'd think that was the ideal time to produce and release their own superior ForceFeedback stick and dominate the market... but I guess not. What a massive missed opportunity. Maybe they learned something for Microsoft Flight Simulator 2024, but I'm not optimistic.
Clint is just like a vendor at late 90s mall. He doesn't force a sale on you, he is just enjoying himself talking about all the products and making good vibes so you may enjoy the product too. I have subbed to LGR 6 years now, and man.. the vibe is still real!
Kind of crazy how we have moved backwards in terms of peripheral features like this. I have a Novint Falcon laying around somewhere, a shame that never ended up going anywhere. Feeling the gravity of objects in HL2 was amazing.
IMHO the NES gamepad was the first giant leap backward in game controls. When I first saw one in a store circa 1985 I was thinking "Where's the joystick? How am I supposed to play games with *that*?" I figured that little, hard edged rectangle would be the worst, most uncomfortable thing to use, and when I first got hands on one, I was right. Did Nintendo ever have anyone with, y'know, *hands*, test that gamepad?
@@greggv8 The big problem I have with the original NES controller is that the ends are tiny hard sharp points, and its so small that it hurts to hold it. What's funny is that knockoff companies that make the plug and play Nintendo ripoff junk, they add a joystick to the controller themselves, lol
I agree. A few years back I decided to buy a HOTAS and I was sad to find that they don't really do force feedback anymore. I bought a nice one but always felt like something was missing, and it made me wish I had kept my sidewinder...
@@greggv8 In their defense, they were building off their hand held "Game & Watch" products. You can see the familiarity in Japan's version of the NES (Fanicom). I could be wrong, but the first time we saw the D pad used by nintendo was with the 1982 Donkey Kong handheld. They were probably inspired by earlier designs seen with some of the handheld pac-man toys that came out around 1981. A joystick with a handheld probably wouldn't have worked very well. To their credit an arcade like joystick was released at some point, but it was more of an optional accessory.
@@greggv8 I still maintain that for a lot of things a D-pad is superior to either analog or digital sticks, be their full size, arcade size or thumbsize. But the one on the NES was hard on your thumbs, certainly. I still remember the calluses I got from them. I actually had (and still do) the NES Advantage stick, but I still felt like many games were better to play using a D-pad.
I loved that game, played it, modded it, made my own scenarios, etc. The community recoded the entire thing from scratch, its free and called OpenUA (UA:Source) that plays perfectly on modern OS/hardware. It is only one of two or three games I ever had with force feedback compatibility which might be part of why I played it so much.
In terms of gaming it really was Quake 2, goldeneye 64, castlevania SotN, fallout, postal, star fox 64, carmageddon, mortal Kombat 4, doom 64, Turok Dino hunter, tomb raider 2, yoshi story
If I had to pin down one year it's probably 1997 where it became "cool" to own a PC and prices were rapidly dropping where you were 2k minimum to get into a PC just the year before and it was around or under 1k by the end of 97. PC gaming started being taken seriously by developers and we saw a massive influx of cutting edge games in that era.
I have a precision pro sidewinder that I still use for basically every joystick game. It’s just really nicely made and works in everything. If you open up a sidewinder, the bottom plate has the names and signatures of all the people at MS who worked on the project molded into the plastic.
Force feedback in one of the most valuable features of a helicopter flight stick. I own 2 sidewinders, one modified and one not. The ability to feel and witness progressive trim, instantaneous trim, feel the vibrations of a stalling warbird, feel the resistance of a sticks elevator movements after taking off due to the wind hitting the ailerons is just amazing. Feeling the flight stick shake when you fire the machine guns in a Fokker DR.1 is really cool too. Force feedback that is in my opinion as valuable as head tracking and I will never understand why it's not a more common feature. It makes modern jets feel boring in comparison cause of their fly by wire design. There's not much purpose for it in modern jets except for maybe a stick shaker or vibration when shooting guns. After looking at the inside of the microsoft force feedback 2, it really shouldn't be as expensive of a feature as some believe it would be. Just a few reliable small motors and a few gears is enough to do the job.
@@georgetazberik6834 Except it isn't really that. LGR did a good job explaining that all the sticks that were made years ago licensed those patents and the FFB wheels currently on the market also license Immersion patents. The patents also get fewer and fewer as time goes by and they expire. More of a lack of a viable market. (and the last attempts like the G940 were apparently quite flawed)
As someone who does car sim stuff (simracing, trucking, etc), I find it a bit mind blowing how ffb is a pretty niche thing for flight simmers when it's pretty much a solved thing for driving games.
This thing made Battlezone 2 come alive for me as a kid. Using the throttle as an actual throttle for vehicles was the most immersive thing i may have ever done, only surpassed by VR's honeymoon period.
My dad used to work for a military contractor that made, among other things, flight simulators for the US Air Force. And his team was involved in programming the force feedback on the throttles and yokes to be accurate enough to train pilots for the real thing. Wild to think that he probably helped lay the groundwork for stuff like this.
@@cultureshock5000 No, like, actual physical flight simulator pods. The kind that completely enclose you in a replica cockpit with real working gauges and stuff.
@@casedistorted Got a source for that? Can't find that anywhere, what I do see is that the market is just to small to have it as a viable thing in Joysticks. It would increase the price of the joysticks as is and it is already hard to market them to the crowd other then the die hard flightsim fans.
I only had a Precision Pro, not a force feedback model. It was still a great stick, but eventually wore out since it didn't have the optical internals the Force Feedback had. One day, I took it apart to see if I could fix its centering issue. I couldn't, but I was pleasantly surprised to see the signatures of the dev team on the inside in raised plastic. I thought it was really neat that they had taken the time and effort to include that in the mold knowing few people would ever see it.
There's an optical sensor on the front that detects if you're holding the joystick that kicks the force feedback on and off. You can hold your finger over it and it'll kick without you holding it.
@@NotFerrariThe sensor's main purpose is most likely just to prevent unnecessary wear on the FFB motors, as some people no doubt would have kept the stick hooked up for extended periods of time, and without such sensor mechanism the motors would have been running the entire time it's plugged in.
@@MosoKaiser Actually it was because the force feedback is based on closed-loop control to make the feeling more accurate. The tuning of the control loops had to account for the damping effect of the user's hand gripping the stick. Without this added damping, they would oscillate. You can see this if you block the sensor with tape and giving the stick a light nudge with your finger, it will chatter and visibly shake.
I remember getting one of these for Christmas as a kid and it absolutely blowing my mind when I started up MechWarrior 3 with this joystick. Feeling every step, weapon fire and damage taken made me feel like a real mech pilot.
Did anyone actually get good with using any joystick in a Mechwarrior game? No matter how much I played MW3 or 4, I found accurate aiming while moving nearly impossible.
@fonesrphunny7242 I beat mw3 and pirate's moon on medium mode a couple times with the joystick. I never got into mw4 too much. I got really good at torso twisting and using the view hat to aim accurately.
I just wanted to say that you have always done a really great job at writing the script for your content. It comes across as very linear, engaging, and leaves me wanting more. Keep up the great work. 🎉
I love this joystick! My favorite fact is that if you pop the housing open, the bottom plate has the signatures of the entire design team. I always figured they knew anyone cracking open the hardware would have a greater appreciation of the design team that made it.
This video makes me so happy. I actually had one back in the day and remember playing MechWarrior - it was absolutely unreal. One of those moments when you felt that this was truly a leap in technology. Awesome video!
About 8 years back I found a perfectly nice FFB2 for 15€ in a local game store of all places. It's been an excellent and reliable stick ever since, and playing older games with proper support is just awesome. Certainly one of the best things to ever bear a Microsoft badge.
I found mine in a thrift shop about 15 years back for 20 bucks with no power cable (luckily it takes a standard figure 8 plug), thought it was bad for a while until I discovered the hand sensor on the stick xD.
Such a brilliant game. I always loved the detail in the world building. Only draws backs are the crappy ending and the bs cheating ai common to many RTS of the time
@thetombuck common misconception: the AI did not actually cheat. Unlike the player it only ever has one pool of energy, can not teleport, and is as much beholden to Line of Sight / Fog of War as thr player is.
I still love my USB sidewinder precision 2 (no force feedback) for older games (x-wing, mechwarrior, etc). It's new enough to work with a modern OS, and old enough to work with most games without any drivers or software or anything super weird.
This is *the* joystick. First 50 kill round in an F-18 Hornet in BF2 on Kubra dam. It was transcendent. Not to mention the mechwarrior games, because it was king there too.
This is the biggest channel I’ve ever seen talk about Urban Assault. That was easily one of my favourite games as a kid. Very ambitious, and something I’d love to see done again.
You definitely earned your paycheck with this project! 😂 I’m 10 years older, an IT Director and Technology Teacher at a private school. 80’s and 90’s were a great time to grow up and I enjoy your videos! I have a vintage collection and share it with the kids at school.
I remember having the SideWinder Force Feedback wheel and playing tons of Midtown Madness 2 and Monster Truck Madness. That thing blew my 9 year old mind when the wheel felt like the one in my parents car.
@5dstrix before the Sidewinder I had a cheap wheel that moved the car like crazy just by touching it. But the sidewinder made it feel like I was moving the wheel of a real car (or at least me as a kid thought so)
I had the second version with the USB plug, which was also a bit more stylish IMO. Pretty epic piece of hardware, I found it recently and it still works!
Greetings. I had both the Sidewinder and FF2 back in the day and wore them both out! Great sticks and I loved the force feedback. The new PS5 controllers implement force feedback in the triggers, which is cool, but nothing really does it quite as well as the OG Microsoft joysticks. I bet if they brought them back for XBox & PC they'd sell a lot more XBoxes and a ton of Joysticks!! Great video, thanks Clint!!
Oh my goodness, this! 😁 @LGR, this is still, hands down, my favorite control device of all time. When I was a kid, this was featured in Popular Science Magazine and I read the article to my Mom with giddy excitement. It wasn't available at the time and I had no idea if I'd ever get to experience it, especially because of the cost. To my delightful surprise, my parents bought one for me for Christmas and it was every bit as awesome in person as I'd imagined from reading the article. Point of note: The "first" version had a fan in that spot that ramped up after some time. The motors in the first version were so strong that in a perfect storm of effect transitions, could cause wrist strain / injury. The second revision is what you have where the motor size was scaled down, negating the need for a fan. My joystick is of the "first version" variety and yes, when it bucks, you feel the slam forcefully in your wrist, arm and shoulder. But, I still love it to this day. Thank you for featuring this!
Holy. The force feedback on that thing is something special. You basically need to bolt it to the table with how much of a kick it can give. The way the force feedback works is very clever and very similar to how the haptic feedback works in modern controllers. The PlayStation 5 controller in particular shows the haptic motors as a sound device to your computer. Games can control the motors by sending sound through them. (And yes, with a little tweaking you can use them as a sound device and feel the music.) Very similar to how this SideWinder controller uses MIDI to control the motors. These force feedback devices don't translate to video well. You really need to try one yourself to really experience what these things are like. Find a local arcade that still has some 90s Sega racing games for the best experience. They went mad with the force feedback on those.
oooh what memories you brought back! I remember when my dad took that joystick and started playing "Combat Flight Simulator". I was by his side as he played the game and I remember the first time I tried to use it. I was shocked and amused by the force feedback, really intense and immersive. You really made me smile like a kid. Thanks for this great video!
thank you for making such super chill and good vibe videos, thank you. you make incredible stuff, you're insanely smart and knowledgeable AND you're super funny! Keep being you, you're worth a lot
My childhood! And it comes with one of my favorite games, Urban Assault! There's an open-source rebuild of the game that allows you to run it on modern hardware, if anyone is interested.
Seeing urban assault so many years later is like an explosion of nostalgia. I remember feeling when a new vehicle is unlocked, and you quickly running to test it out :) Fantastic game, and so pity that no more games like it not released :(
It's utterly bonkers that we're decades later and I don't think there's a modern console controller out there with as satisfying force feedback as this. :-o
Loved those joysticks back in the day for the various Star Wars flight sims. Being able to use those little buttons on top on the stick for your ships other functions was awesome.
I can't help but think you and I crossed paths in our youth, Clint. I spent many an afternoon at that same Comp USA store, and at the Software Etc (and the Babbages next door) at Hanes Mall. And when the Best Buy opened, that place was like paradise to my young insatiable gamer gremlin self. Heck, I even used to frequent the video game booths they had at the old Cooks Flea Market.
I got the Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 still in the attic in original box (very good condition). I still hold hope everyday that someone will make a driver for GoG games that supported feedback.
Windows 10/11 has a driver for it built in. It just plugs in, and works. At worse you might have to go into Devices and Printers, and detect it then configure it. You can even find the original software online, and it works.
Indeed, it works with modern Windows with no additional drivers or software needed. Tested with Episode 1 Racer GOG version with great results! twitter.com/lazygamereviews/status/1682444490009726984
I had both the model 1 and 2. Both wore out and, as you said, became kind of obsolete since times went ahead without support for the niche of FF. Was one of the best experiences I ever had. I too remember the in-store show case and the, more or less the same, test provided in the sidewinder software. Brought me back to the good old time this video did. Thx Clint! Excellent as always!
I had the Digital Sound System 80, they were amazing speakers. Then Klipsch made the ProMedia 2.1 set, and I never looked for anything else. Sometimes miss those old MS DSS 80 speakers though.
I used to dream about it back in the day, to fly with FS98 and FS2000 "as real as it gets". But back then, it was kind impossible to find one where I live, and if I could find one, I'm sure I couldn't afford to have one.
Thank you Clint for covering this peripheral. You brought back a lot of good memories from this era. This joystick was phenomenal and I had as much fun with its force feedback features as you did in the video (I loved messing around with that control panel). I still can't wrap my head around how some parts of the gaming hardware industry have regressed in the last 20 years. The late 90s/early 00s were a fruitful time of awesome peripherals and devices (You should do the Microsoft Strategic Commander controller next). Even audio peripherals came in all shapes and sizes and we had THX quality quadraphonic sound with games that supported them, nowadays everything's compressed to stereo or some simulated 7.1 audio that adds a lot of fuzzy reverb. It stinks! Hoping someday these patent trolls eff off so that the industry can fill that niche again.
I remember my fascination with Force Feedback when the family first got some kind of driving wheel back in the day. Playing it with Need For Speed: Hot Pursuit (I think), where it would rumble when you drove over a wooden bridge, was the coolest thing ever. Always nice seeing this nostalgic stuff, especially running on hardware of the time.
Dude I remember on the rare times I got to go to Greensboro from Kernersville as a kid I always begged to go to that compUSA. Stuff like this joystick were way out of my budget 😭
Man, I used to play Mechwarrior 3 with this joystick for hours and hours. What a great experience. I almost want to buy a used Sidewinder Pro and get MW3 running again somehow. I wish I had never sold the joystick, long ago, when my computer lacked the correct connections to use it.
I have a Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 joystick and I recently pulled it out to try with Flight Simulator 2020. Although FS2020 doesn't have a built-in profile for it, and it doesn't support force feedback effects, once you configure the inputs the Sidewinder works quite well as a general purpose joystick. I love the even resistance that it provides which is unmatched by any spring-based joystick.
I still use (and currently have set up on my desk) my Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 (green light/grey trigger variant). It's great for space games, and the force feedback still works with War Thunder - great for sensing the torque on old biplanes!
I picked one up in high school while I worked at a CompUSA. My heart aches thinking of the same question, "why are they gone?!" It brings an incredible level of immersion. My favorites were Mechwarrior 4 Mercs and Descent Freespace. It would be incredible for something modern like Elite Dangerous, Star Citizen, or even No Mans Sky.
I saved my pocket money forever and bought one of these badboys back in 97 when I was 14. IT WAS AMAZING! MS Flight Sim and Interstate 76 were about the only games I had that worked, but they rocked.
I saved up and built my first gaming PC in 2001 with an Athlon XP 1600+, a GeForce3 Ti 500, Sounds Blaster Audigy, Klipsch ProMedia 5.1 surround speakers, and a MS Force Feedback 2. Mechwarrior IV was something else... not only could you feel your mech walk, but the faster you ran, the harder it pounded. When you got hit or fired all your weapons at once, the recoil made it difficult to keep control, and when you walked through water, it FELT like you were walking through water. What an amazing time!
I had this one and remember the feeling while using it was unbelievable. It replaced a very basic joystick we had before and honestly no other joystick was as much of a pleasure to use, especially for various flight sims. Definitely used this with max settings for the resistance often and when I'd crash the grip would forcibly go back and forth. Don't recall it breaking so much as not being compatible with the newer machines I replaced my older computer with.
Yeah I think I just put mine on the street at some point because software was no longer being written for it to work with any later games/Operating systems...still have found memories playing F22-raptor with it(without FFB mind you).
Funny that Mr LGR was having compatibility issues with the software because I remember after getting the darn thing to work: "Well I'm never doing this again" 😆 Great joystick but terrible software support as windows 95-98 were plagued with addressing issues...plug and play back then wasn't quite "plug and play". 😆
Seems like force feedback would be a requirement for a good flight sim experience. Just like a driving game without force feedback, it just doesn't feel right.
@@volvo09 There's definitely something significant lost when I play more modern flight games like Chorus with just a mouse. Playing Wing Commander or Tie-Fighter with a flight stick just feels more real.
I still have an FFB2 sitting next to my desk, ready to go. It's plug and play and no other affordable (but expensive) market product has ever beaten it. I have two more in storage. I sent a few across the continent to folks who couldnt find them locally.l for a couple of tenners. It's considered the gold standard for a lot of IL-2 players. It's not just the vibration effects and the like. You can feel almost exactly the forces on the stick from the airflow over the control surfaces, making you work harder at speed, or falling away and making the stick go 'floppy' when you stall.
I managed to find a Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 at a thriftstore recently. Not in the box but the stick was in great shape. Plugged it in and despite its age it works great with windows 11. Think its going to be a nice stick for ace combat
I actually implemented force feedback in a game in the early 2000s. This was my first job as a games dev at a studio in Germany. We had very much fun. With the right commands (and some sticky tape on the security sensor) you could make these things walk around the table or dance to music. Unfortunately sometimes good things have to come to an end. The company ran out of money, force feedback support was one of the first things to be removed from the game. Somewhat later I lost my job and many others did as well. The game was completed by the remaining staff with very little resources. It was released in a bad state and became a flop. By theat point I had moved on in life. I never played the final game and I never owned a copy.
The 90s didn't have Half-Life 2 or advanced AIDS treatments that meant the illness wasn't a death sentence, or total access to the collective knowledge of all humanity in my pocket. So how is the 90s better? "Nostalgia is heroin for old people." - Dara O Briain
@@theblackwidower Yeah but on the other hand it was actually possible for young people to afford homes, people weren't all at each other's throats, and there weren't a handful of corporations in complete control of all discourse in the name of maximally packing advertisements into everyone's brains. Technologically we improved, but socially we regressed and by a lot. It's not a hard point to grasp, so stop playing dumb.
I have the Sidewinder Force Feedback Wheel USB and it's a force to be reckoned with! I never had the Force Feedback Joystick but it's never too late to try out a piece of history, I'll keep an eye on local online markets for the USB version 🙂
My favorite of the in-store demo was the helicopter starting. I can still feel the phantom swirling motion. Thanks for bringing back that memory. I always loved fore-feedback. I always thought that it was the future way before all this VR/AR.
I had a set of DSS-80's and only got rid of them a few years back. GREAT speakers! The subwoofer made a great foot warmer. We also had the Game Voice and this joystick. My brother-in-law is STILL using the DSS-80s and still has his game voice and joystick in working order. The AWE64 was a royal PITA sound card!
You gotta love how fast the entire gaming industry adopted haptic force feedback as soon as people saw how simple it is and yet how immersive it made Star Fox 64.
I still have mine. Played DOOM, Jane's ATF (Advanced Tactical Fighters), and Mechwarrior 2 and 3 with it. I still remember the calibration you had to do when starting DOOM every time. I got it at CompUSA in White Plains, NY. The hours my father spent on tech support for Jetfighter 3 trying to get the Sound Blaster card to work with the game. God bless his soul. He never got it working so he got me Jane's ATF instead. Ended up being a really good decision. I learned so much about flying and military aerospace from that (very realistic for it's time) game. Back in the day a sound card (no on-board sound existed) could fail to function correctly with your software and actually cause it to crash. So even if you didn't want sound you still couldn't play the game. I remember my dad trying every combo of DMA and IRQ thinkable. And he was a Information Systems Director at a fortune 500 company.
I had a fully enclosed cardboard "cockpit" setup for MechWarrior and other combat sims in the early 2000s. The best flight stick I had was like a $50 thrustmaster and some pedals. It would have been amazing to add this and I remember seeing it in stores and catalogs.
Still got mine (Sidewinder 2 specifically), those motors are insane! Real workout to using one of these. :D My main issue is that the stick itself is, eh, tacky plastic. Still, one of the best feedback sticks of all time for it's power alone. Playing IL2 was a heck of a lot easier when you can 'feel' the plan starting to stall or get a bit rough in flight for whatever reason.
Hey, I’m a latecomer and I love your videos, and I appreciate the fact that you don’t f(screw) around with your jokes while keeping it (relatively) classy.
Partially because of you I went and purchased 4 sidwinder force feedbacks two pros and two FFB 2's. I had been thinking about them for awhile but this really sold me.
Man I was jealous for my friends who had this joystick. Besides the force feedback feature, it was just really good joystick, competing with the real high end offerings at the time and for a long time after. Although the force feedback feature was pretty dubious in a joystick, it was much more useful in steering wheels. I'm still using my Logitech G25, from the era before Logitech became utter crap. It really adds to the feeling, especially when combined with VR goggles.
I got a USB SideWinder Force Feeback 2 back in 2003 when that installation of Microsoft Flight Simulator came out. It still works to this day, and it still feels awesome to play the current Microsoft Flight Simulator on it!
A buddy of mine had one of these back in the day, and it was awesome to play Star Wars Episode I: Racer and MechWarrior 3 on. Especially the podracing, the force feedback would shake you 7 ways from Sunday when you crashed.
Wow. Middle wallop caught me off guard there! I used to live that way as a kid as my dad was in the army there. Nice video, I had one of the later usb Microsoft models and loved it!
Thanks for doing a video on the Rolls-Royce of joysticks! I picked up one at a flea market but never got it to work. A normal Sidewinder was always my go to stick. Gotta love Microsoft!!
I had the original Sidewinder FFB as well as the Sidewinder FFB 2. Left my old FFB 1 behind when I moved to a different country, simply because I had the FFB 2, and the old one couldn't work on newer systems, as you described. I still use my FFB 2, though mostly as a regular secondary joystick. I loved the old FFB games, but there simply isn't much support in newer software, and it's really sad. I played so much Flight Sim and Combat Flight Sim on my old FFB, and I really miss the immersion it gave. I even used to get the DirectX SDKs mailed to me on a CD in the post, and I distinctly remember the DX7 SDK including a bunch of cool FFB demos, and support for coding all the effects yourself. I may have had more fun building my own FFB experiments than I even had playing games. Good times.
It's time we get more Microsoft hardware! The new flight sim releases being so revolutionary have more than doubled the price of flight sim equipment on the market nowadays.
This is a great example of rare modern regression in technology, modern joysticks literally aren't as good as they used to be, with the possible exception of the similar genre of Car racing wheels and pedals, which have gotten alot better.
Wow what a nostalgia hit. I got mechwarrior 2 bundled with the sidewinder joystick back in 1997, and that opening cutscene blew my mind as a kid. honestly as a 9 year old that joystick and MW2 were too advanced for me and I barely played MW2 properly until I was a few years older.
I still use my non-forcefeedback Sidewinder Precision Pro (which had an included gameport to USB adapter) in modern games like Elite Dangerous, which I also play in VR. It works great, and I don't know anything currently on the market that I would ever want to replace it with. I remember when I first bought it, I had seriously considered getting the force feedback version of he Sidewinder instead as it was sold right beside it. But the price difference was too big for me to afford, so I ended up with the Pro instead. In hindsight, that did allow me to continue to use it right up until this day, since there's no issues with support for it in modern systems.
Clint, thanks for the little trip down memory lane. I had a lot of the SideWinder controllers as a kid, finding them at thrift stores. I remember playing Combat Flight Simulator (and the other FS games) a lot with my Force Feedback 2 joystick. It, and my other controllers, are still out at my mother's house. I should retrieve them. I think an big reason for the disappearance of force feeback joysticks is just lack of interest in joysticks in general. In the 90s, almost everybody had a joystick for PC games. These days, that position has been supplanted by the gamepad. Sure, the immersion and fine control aren't there, but they're a lot more convenient to use and store. It's still a shame we've not seen more products hit the market, though, considering how popular the FFB2 still is. (I swear the only SideWinder controllers I didn't have at some point were the second generation sticks like your FF Pro and the Precision Pro and the late cost-reduced products. The FF Wheels were awesome too!)
I started working in a computer shop in 1997 and bought this joystick right at availability. Still have it, but it is not set up currently. Your video made me wanting it even more to be used again - I did not know that Episode1 Racer supports it, since I did not have it back then, but I bought it recently :-)
And yes, you can cover up the hand sensor to let the stick move freely around on its own at full force!
Here's a demonstration of that with Episode 1 Racer on the FFB2 that just arrived: twitter.com/lazygamereviews/status/1682444490009726984
microsoft included an adapter on the precision pro for USB I don't know if they had it with the force feedback versions
Unfortunately, that particular adapter is _only_ designed for the non-FFB sticks like the Precision Pro. Hence the need for custom microcontroller projects today :)
@@LGR that is a bit of a bummer one of these days I’m going to get my FFB version going because I had always wanted FFB but when they were current but costs kept it out of reach I got the non FFB version and it was a great stick well into my university years.
we need a modern one today
@@LGR Oooh please post a little update if you ever manage to get your hands on a USB adapter for this thing, that'd be really awesome! (Like the USB4VC project you covered on Blerbs - I'm really glad you did because that's such a freaking amazing thing to have and I'm glad I got one!)
Microsoft really owes us a reissue or new version of this joystick. What are they doing releasing such a kick-ass flightsim and NOT have a stick like this on the market!
What are they doing? Making more weird mice designs no one likes, looks like. 😅
"What are they doing"
That's a question you could ask Microsoft about a LOT of their damn products these days. Microsoft quality has gone to shit now, ever since the release of Windows 10.
@@arnox4554*Windows 8.
Windows 10 while still flawed is markedly better than 8.
Microsoft have been treating PC gaming as the red headed stepchild ever since the XBox came along.
It boggles the mind. The new Flightsim release downright emptied all the stores of all flightsticks! And pushed the prices up for all that was left, like that warthog stick.
You'd think that was the ideal time to produce and release their own superior ForceFeedback stick and dominate the market... but I guess not. What a massive missed opportunity.
Maybe they learned something for Microsoft Flight Simulator 2024, but I'm not optimistic.
Clint is just like a vendor at late 90s mall. He doesn't force a sale on you, he is just enjoying himself talking about all the products and making good vibes so you may enjoy the product too.
I have subbed to LGR 6 years now, and man.. the vibe is still real!
Considering he has done a full on cosplay as a CompUSA employee for Halloween once, he really does fit the vibe.
Kind of crazy how we have moved backwards in terms of peripheral features like this. I have a Novint Falcon laying around somewhere, a shame that never ended up going anywhere. Feeling the gravity of objects in HL2 was amazing.
IMHO the NES gamepad was the first giant leap backward in game controls. When I first saw one in a store circa 1985 I was thinking "Where's the joystick? How am I supposed to play games with *that*?" I figured that little, hard edged rectangle would be the worst, most uncomfortable thing to use, and when I first got hands on one, I was right. Did Nintendo ever have anyone with, y'know, *hands*, test that gamepad?
@@greggv8 The big problem I have with the original NES controller is that the ends are tiny hard sharp points, and its so small that it hurts to hold it. What's funny is that knockoff companies that make the plug and play Nintendo ripoff junk, they add a joystick to the controller themselves, lol
I agree. A few years back I decided to buy a HOTAS and I was sad to find that they don't really do force feedback anymore. I bought a nice one but always felt like something was missing, and it made me wish I had kept my sidewinder...
@@greggv8 In their defense, they were building off their hand held "Game & Watch" products. You can see the familiarity in Japan's version of the NES (Fanicom). I could be wrong, but the first time we saw the D pad used by nintendo was with the 1982 Donkey Kong handheld. They were probably inspired by earlier designs seen with some of the handheld pac-man toys that came out around 1981.
A joystick with a handheld probably wouldn't have worked very well. To their credit an arcade like joystick was released at some point, but it was more of an optional accessory.
@@greggv8 I still maintain that for a lot of things a D-pad is superior to either analog or digital sticks, be their full size, arcade size or thumbsize. But the one on the NES was hard on your thumbs, certainly. I still remember the calluses I got from them. I actually had (and still do) the NES Advantage stick, but I still felt like many games were better to play using a D-pad.
Urban Assault was one of the first "real" games I ever played as a kid. Seeing it run again more than 20 years later is a trip.
that was always a great game to throw down on. Especially on IGZ
I loved that game, played it, modded it, made my own scenarios, etc. The community recoded the entire thing from scratch, its free and called OpenUA (UA:Source) that plays perfectly on modern OS/hardware. It is only one of two or three games I ever had with force feedback compatibility which might be part of why I played it so much.
No matter what’s going on, you always gotta make time for LGR.
I had one of those back in the day and played a lot of descent 1 and 2 with it.
true, i might be late for work but, come on boss , its LGR ,get over it
Always.
Every time
Never miss it!
1997 feels like such a magical year.
Truly the golden age of PC gaming.
nothing special. might have been the first year i smoked weed. that or 96. if that's the case, i guess it's kind of special then
@@BurtSampson you probably missed out while you were high.
In terms of gaming it really was
Quake 2, goldeneye 64, castlevania SotN, fallout, postal, star fox 64, carmageddon, mortal Kombat 4, doom 64, Turok Dino hunter, tomb raider 2, yoshi story
If I had to pin down one year it's probably 1997 where it became "cool" to own a PC and prices were rapidly dropping where you were 2k minimum to get into a PC just the year before and it was around or under 1k by the end of 97. PC gaming started being taken seriously by developers and we saw a massive influx of cutting edge games in that era.
I have a precision pro sidewinder that I still use for basically every joystick game. It’s just really nicely made and works in everything.
If you open up a sidewinder, the bottom plate has the names and signatures of all the people at MS who worked on the project molded into the plastic.
same. Precision Pro is quite robust
I have 3 of them. Just to have spares!
Back when Microsoft wasn't entirely evil and took pride in their products.
Same here, and I love mine. I'll have to open it up and look I never knew that.
@@malcontender6319
MS was WAY more evil in the 90s.
Great joystick, though.
Force feedback in one of the most valuable features of a helicopter flight stick. I own 2 sidewinders, one modified and one not. The ability to feel and witness progressive trim, instantaneous trim, feel the vibrations of a stalling warbird, feel the resistance of a sticks elevator movements after taking off due to the wind hitting the ailerons is just amazing. Feeling the flight stick shake when you fire the machine guns in a Fokker DR.1 is really cool too. Force feedback that is in my opinion as valuable as head tracking and I will never understand why it's not a more common feature. It makes modern jets feel boring in comparison cause of their fly by wire design. There's not much purpose for it in modern jets except for maybe a stick shaker or vibration when shooting guns. After looking at the inside of the microsoft force feedback 2, it really shouldn't be as expensive of a feature as some believe it would be. Just a few reliable small motors and a few gears is enough to do the job.
"I will never understand why it's not a more common feature."
Patent trolls.
@@georgetazberik6834almost always the correct answer to that question
@@georgetazberik6834 It's more about being directed at a very niche market.
@@georgetazberik6834 Except it isn't really that. LGR did a good job explaining that all the sticks that were made years ago licensed those patents and the FFB wheels currently on the market also license Immersion patents. The patents also get fewer and fewer as time goes by and they expire. More of a lack of a viable market. (and the last attempts like the G940 were apparently quite flawed)
As someone who does car sim stuff (simracing, trucking, etc), I find it a bit mind blowing how ffb is a pretty niche thing for flight simmers when it's pretty much a solved thing for driving games.
This thing made Battlezone 2 come alive for me as a kid. Using the throttle as an actual throttle for vehicles was the most immersive thing i may have ever done, only surpassed by VR's honeymoon period.
@@wza223-fo3mc Looks like it's already run out in the few hours since you posted.
My dad used to work for a military contractor that made, among other things, flight simulators for the US Air Force. And his team was involved in programming the force feedback on the throttles and yokes to be accurate enough to train pilots for the real thing. Wild to think that he probably helped lay the groundwork for stuff like this.
microsoft flight sim x?
@@cultureshock5000 No, like, actual physical flight simulator pods. The kind that completely enclose you in a replica cockpit with real working gauges and stuff.
That's pretty awesome.
sucks someone patented this sh and now we don't get force feedback in any modern flight sticks.
@@casedistorted Got a source for that? Can't find that anywhere, what I do see is that the market is just to small to have it as a viable thing in Joysticks. It would increase the price of the joysticks as is and it is already hard to market them to the crowd other then the die hard flightsim fans.
I only had a Precision Pro, not a force feedback model. It was still a great stick, but eventually wore out since it didn't have the optical internals the Force Feedback had. One day, I took it apart to see if I could fix its centering issue. I couldn't, but I was pleasantly surprised to see the signatures of the dev team on the inside in raised plastic. I thought it was really neat that they had taken the time and effort to include that in the mold knowing few people would ever see it.
The Precision Pro doesn't have potentiometers, but an optical sensor. I have multiple units, and they still work like on day one.
“opts over pots” as me grandaddy used to say
There's an optical sensor on the front that detects if you're holding the joystick that kicks the force feedback on and off. You can hold your finger over it and it'll kick without you holding it.
yep my FFB 2 stick has one as well though i had to clean it as it was keeping the stick stuck on
probably a security feature, which is awesome, considering the strength of FFB 😅
That feature was always my favorite. It felt like a magical, living thing whenever i got close enough to it.
@@NotFerrariThe sensor's main purpose is most likely just to prevent unnecessary wear on the FFB motors, as some people no doubt would have kept the stick hooked up for extended periods of time, and without such sensor mechanism the motors would have been running the entire time it's plugged in.
@@MosoKaiser Actually it was because the force feedback is based on closed-loop control to make the feeling more accurate. The tuning of the control loops had to account for the damping effect of the user's hand gripping the stick. Without this added damping, they would oscillate. You can see this if you block the sensor with tape and giving the stick a light nudge with your finger, it will chatter and visibly shake.
I remember getting one of these for Christmas as a kid and it absolutely blowing my mind when I started up MechWarrior 3 with this joystick. Feeling every step, weapon fire and damage taken made me feel like a real mech pilot.
Yes these things were excellent with the mechwarrior series.
Did anyone actually get good with using any joystick in a Mechwarrior game? No matter how much I played MW3 or 4, I found accurate aiming while moving nearly impossible.
@fonesrphunny7242 I beat mw3 and pirate's moon on medium mode a couple times with the joystick. I never got into mw4 too much. I got really good at torso twisting and using the view hat to aim accurately.
@@fonesrphunny7242 I did, but online games, you were at a disadvantage.
@@d.r.1402 Same thing with Combat Flight Simulator.
I just wanted to say that you have always done a really great job at writing the script for your content. It comes across as very linear, engaging, and leaves me wanting more. Keep up the great work. 🎉
Thank you!
I love this joystick! My favorite fact is that if you pop the housing open, the bottom plate has the signatures of the entire design team. I always figured they knew anyone cracking open the hardware would have a greater appreciation of the design team that made it.
This video makes me so happy. I actually had one back in the day and remember playing MechWarrior - it was absolutely unreal. One of those moments when you felt that this was truly a leap in technology. Awesome video!
Thanks Matt, glad you enjoyed! MechWarrior with this is truly game-changing
About 8 years back I found a perfectly nice FFB2 for 15€ in a local game store of all places. It's been an excellent and reliable stick ever since, and playing older games with proper support is just awesome. Certainly one of the best things to ever bear a Microsoft badge.
I'm using one for over 20 years and I fly a lot. That thing is probably the most reliable and rugged thing I will ever have bought in my entire life.
I found mine in a thrift shop about 15 years back for 20 bucks with no power cable (luckily it takes a standard figure 8 plug), thought it was bad for a while until I discovered the hand sensor on the stick xD.
Urban assault is such an underrated hidden gem of a game
Niche community with an OpenSource package, still kicking around
It was a very unique post apocalypse scenario. Almost felt a little bit like Mospeada by way of an RTS.
I like it even more than Incoming, even if Incoming had better visuals 🥰
Such a brilliant game. I always loved the detail in the world building. Only draws backs are the crappy ending and the bs cheating ai common to many RTS of the time
@thetombuck common misconception: the AI did not actually cheat. Unlike the player it only ever has one pool of energy, can not teleport, and is as much beholden to Line of Sight / Fog of War as thr player is.
I have fond memory of my Sidewinder playing countless hours of Wing Commander. Being able to twist the stick for role maneuvers was just great.
I still love my USB sidewinder precision 2 (no force feedback) for older games (x-wing, mechwarrior, etc). It's new enough to work with a modern OS, and old enough to work with most games without any drivers or software or anything super weird.
This is *the* joystick. First 50 kill round in an F-18 Hornet in BF2 on Kubra dam. It was transcendent.
Not to mention the mechwarrior games, because it was king there too.
Yes I remember feeling rather meh about mechwarrior 2 until I played it with the joystick.
God dammit. It was you!!! I just upgraded to a GeForce 3 and was "trying" to go ham in an LAV. Dam you.
Torso twist
Thanks for the reminder that I need to get back to BF2hub lol
This is the biggest channel I’ve ever seen talk about Urban Assault. That was easily one of my favourite games as a kid. Very ambitious, and something I’d love to see done again.
You definitely earned your paycheck with this project! 😂 I’m 10 years older, an IT Director and Technology Teacher at a private school. 80’s and 90’s were a great time to grow up and I enjoy your videos! I have a vintage collection and share it with the kids at school.
I remember having the SideWinder Force Feedback wheel and playing tons of Midtown Madness 2 and Monster Truck Madness. That thing blew my 9 year old mind when the wheel felt like the one in my parents car.
I used the USB version with Crimson Skies and Comanche 4. Good times😁
Your parents must have had a really tiny car. Did they use a gokart?
@@5dstrixhe meant the feeling when turning it. Most cheap wheels at the time were literally just a analog stick shaped like a racing wheel.
Oh yes, got one as a birthday present, Monster Truck Madness was awesome. Still have the wheel!
@5dstrix before the Sidewinder I had a cheap wheel that moved the car like crazy just by touching it. But the sidewinder made it feel like I was moving the wheel of a real car (or at least me as a kid thought so)
I had the second version with the USB plug, which was also a bit more stylish IMO. Pretty epic piece of hardware, I found it recently and it still works!
Still holds up 26 years later, love this stick!
Greetings. I had both the Sidewinder and FF2 back in the day and wore them both out! Great sticks and I loved the force feedback. The new PS5 controllers implement force feedback in the triggers, which is cool, but nothing really does it quite as well as the OG Microsoft joysticks. I bet if they brought them back for XBox & PC they'd sell a lot more XBoxes and a ton of Joysticks!! Great video, thanks Clint!!
I'm still wondering why they chose to implement force feedback in the triggers instead of the sticks, would've made much more sense IMO.
Oh my goodness, this! 😁
@LGR, this is still, hands down, my favorite control device of all time. When I was a kid, this was featured in Popular Science Magazine and I read the article to my Mom with giddy excitement. It wasn't available at the time and I had no idea if I'd ever get to experience it, especially because of the cost.
To my delightful surprise, my parents bought one for me for Christmas and it was every bit as awesome in person as I'd imagined from reading the article.
Point of note: The "first" version had a fan in that spot that ramped up after some time. The motors in the first version were so strong that in a perfect storm of effect transitions, could cause wrist strain / injury. The second revision is what you have where the motor size was scaled down, negating the need for a fan.
My joystick is of the "first version" variety and yes, when it bucks, you feel the slam forcefully in your wrist, arm and shoulder. But, I still love it to this day.
Thank you for featuring this!
Oh okay that explains it then, I had the version with the fan too and yeah I kept the feedback strength quite low!
Holy. The force feedback on that thing is something special. You basically need to bolt it to the table with how much of a kick it can give. The way the force feedback works is very clever and very similar to how the haptic feedback works in modern controllers. The PlayStation 5 controller in particular shows the haptic motors as a sound device to your computer. Games can control the motors by sending sound through them. (And yes, with a little tweaking you can use them as a sound device and feel the music.) Very similar to how this SideWinder controller uses MIDI to control the motors.
These force feedback devices don't translate to video well. You really need to try one yourself to really experience what these things are like. Find a local arcade that still has some 90s Sega racing games for the best experience. They went mad with the force feedback on those.
oooh what memories you brought back! I remember when my dad took that joystick and started playing "Combat Flight Simulator". I was by his side as he played the game and I remember the first time I tried to use it. I was shocked and amused by the force feedback, really intense and immersive. You really made me smile like a kid. Thanks for this great video!
thank you for making such super chill and good vibe videos, thank you. you make incredible stuff, you're insanely smart and knowledgeable AND you're super funny! Keep being you, you're worth a lot
That’s very kind, thank you!
This was the boss joystick at the time. Awesome! 🕹
The successor still is... ^^
My childhood! And it comes with one of my favorite games, Urban Assault! There's an open-source rebuild of the game that allows you to run it on modern hardware, if anyone is interested.
Where is it? Urban assault is awesome.
@@J.Rambo1022 Same, I need it
Seeing urban assault so many years later is like an explosion of nostalgia. I remember feeling when a new vehicle is unlocked, and you quickly running to test it out :) Fantastic game, and so pity that no more games like it not released :(
It's utterly bonkers that we're decades later and I don't think there's a modern console controller out there with as satisfying force feedback as this. :-o
Loved those joysticks back in the day for the various Star Wars flight sims. Being able to use those little buttons on top on the stick for your ships other functions was awesome.
I am so glad you covered this. I used to have this stick and adored it. It still is the golden standard to me after all these years
I can't help but think you and I crossed paths in our youth, Clint. I spent many an afternoon at that same Comp USA store, and at the Software Etc (and the Babbages next door) at Hanes Mall. And when the Best Buy opened, that place was like paradise to my young insatiable gamer gremlin self. Heck, I even used to frequent the video game booths they had at the old Cooks Flea Market.
This video was a lot more detailed than I expected. Props for going into all the simulator community stuff at the end of the video!
Always happy to see any Mechwarrior game in a video!
I got the Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 still in the attic in original box (very good condition). I still hold hope everyday that someone will make a driver for GoG games that supported feedback.
Windows 10/11 has a driver for it built in. It just plugs in, and works. At worse you might have to go into Devices and Printers, and detect it then configure it. You can even find the original software online, and it works.
@@D.J._S hmm been trying on and off with no luck. Will try again next time in attic.
Indeed, it works with modern Windows with no additional drivers or software needed. Tested with Episode 1 Racer GOG version with great results! twitter.com/lazygamereviews/status/1682444490009726984
I have tested this with USB adapter that didn't work on win10.
I had both the model 1 and 2. Both wore out and, as you said, became kind of obsolete since times went ahead without support for the niche of FF. Was one of the best experiences I ever had. I too remember the in-store show case and the, more or less the same, test provided in the sidewinder software. Brought me back to the good old time this video did. Thx Clint! Excellent as always!
I had the Digital Sound System 80, they were amazing speakers. Then Klipsch made the ProMedia 2.1 set, and I never looked for anything else. Sometimes miss those old MS DSS 80 speakers though.
Ah man, i had one of these back in the day. Playing Eurofighter 2000. What a game and what a joystick.
I forgot that existed
I used to dream about it back in the day, to fly with FS98 and FS2000 "as real as it gets". But back then, it was kind impossible to find one where I live, and if I could find one, I'm sure I couldn't afford to have one.
Thank you Clint for covering this peripheral. You brought back a lot of good memories from this era. This joystick was phenomenal and I had as much fun with its force feedback features as you did in the video (I loved messing around with that control panel).
I still can't wrap my head around how some parts of the gaming hardware industry have regressed in the last 20 years. The late 90s/early 00s were a fruitful time of awesome peripherals and devices (You should do the Microsoft Strategic Commander controller next). Even audio peripherals came in all shapes and sizes and we had THX quality quadraphonic sound with games that supported them, nowadays everything's compressed to stereo or some simulated 7.1 audio that adds a lot of fuzzy reverb. It stinks!
Hoping someday these patent trolls eff off so that the industry can fill that niche again.
I remember my fascination with Force Feedback when the family first got some kind of driving wheel back in the day. Playing it with Need For Speed: Hot Pursuit (I think), where it would rumble when you drove over a wooden bridge, was the coolest thing ever.
Always nice seeing this nostalgic stuff, especially running on hardware of the time.
I had Urban Assault as a kid! I really loved that short burst of FPS/RTS hybrid games we got, like Battlezone and Uprising.
Thanks for the trip down memory lane. CompUSA in Greensboro, Combat Flight Simulator, MechWarrior3... I love it!
You bet!
I had this exact joystick growing up, came with the i76 and mdk bundle. Good times. I think my dad still has it in storage.
I loved using force feedback with Viper Racing - it was the best way of working out when you would spin out of control.
Viper racing was very cool
Dude I remember on the rare times I got to go to Greensboro from Kernersville as a kid I always begged to go to that compUSA. Stuff like this joystick were way out of my budget 😭
Cool to see another local
Man, I used to play Mechwarrior 3 with this joystick for hours and hours. What a great experience. I almost want to buy a used Sidewinder Pro and get MW3 running again somehow. I wish I had never sold the joystick, long ago, when my computer lacked the correct connections to use it.
Always wanted to see this thing in action, thanks.
I have a Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 joystick and I recently pulled it out to try with Flight Simulator 2020. Although FS2020 doesn't have a built-in profile for it, and it doesn't support force feedback effects, once you configure the inputs the Sidewinder works quite well as a general purpose joystick. I love the even resistance that it provides which is unmatched by any spring-based joystick.
MSFS need FFB support so badly... ever other important sim still supports it today.
Third party software is available for this. I have a FF stick from VPForce.
I still use (and currently have set up on my desk) my Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 (green light/grey trigger variant). It's great for space games, and the force feedback still works with War Thunder - great for sensing the torque on old biplanes!
I had the non-force feedback version. It was fantastic. Spent many hours enjoying X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter using this
The sound card port conflicting with the flight stick drivers is PEAK 90s PC gaming.
I picked one up in high school while I worked at a CompUSA. My heart aches thinking of the same question, "why are they gone?!" It brings an incredible level of immersion. My favorites were Mechwarrior 4 Mercs and Descent Freespace. It would be incredible for something modern like Elite Dangerous, Star Citizen, or even No Mans Sky.
Mouse gaming took its place.
@@DoctorNemmoExpensive flight sticks for flight sims never went away. And force feedback is significant for simulating flying.
I saved my pocket money forever and bought one of these badboys back in 97 when I was 14. IT WAS AMAZING!
MS Flight Sim and Interstate 76 were about the only games I had that worked, but they rocked.
Even more fun than seeing the joystick in action is observing over 32 minutes of pure glee from Clint.
I saved up and built my first gaming PC in 2001 with an Athlon XP 1600+, a GeForce3 Ti 500, Sounds Blaster Audigy, Klipsch ProMedia 5.1 surround speakers, and a MS Force Feedback 2. Mechwarrior IV was something else... not only could you feel your mech walk, but the faster you ran, the harder it pounded. When you got hit or fired all your weapons at once, the recoil made it difficult to keep control, and when you walked through water, it FELT like you were walking through water. What an amazing time!
I owned the Logitech Wingman Force. It was a behemoth but it was also very well made and was a blast for games.
I had this one and remember the feeling while using it was unbelievable. It replaced a very basic joystick we had before and honestly no other joystick was as much of a pleasure to use, especially for various flight sims. Definitely used this with max settings for the resistance often and when I'd crash the grip would forcibly go back and forth. Don't recall it breaking so much as not being compatible with the newer machines I replaced my older computer with.
Yeah I think I just put mine on the street at some point because software was no longer being written for it to work with any later games/Operating systems...still have found memories playing F22-raptor with it(without FFB mind you).
Funny that Mr LGR was having compatibility issues with the software because I remember after getting the darn thing to work: "Well I'm never doing this again" 😆
Great joystick but terrible software support as windows 95-98 were plagued with addressing issues...plug and play back then wasn't quite "plug and play". 😆
Seems like force feedback would be a requirement for a good flight sim experience.
Just like a driving game without force feedback, it just doesn't feel right.
@@volvo09 There's definitely something significant lost when I play more modern flight games like Chorus with just a mouse. Playing Wing Commander or Tie-Fighter with a flight stick just feels more real.
I remember seeing Clint find this on Thrifts! Great to see him checking it out at last.
I still have an FFB2 sitting next to my desk, ready to go. It's plug and play and no other affordable (but expensive) market product has ever beaten it. I have two more in storage. I sent a few across the continent to folks who couldnt find them locally.l for a couple of tenners. It's considered the gold standard for a lot of IL-2 players.
It's not just the vibration effects and the like. You can feel almost exactly the forces on the stick from the airflow over the control surfaces, making you work harder at speed, or falling away and making the stick go 'floppy' when you stall.
It's got great motion too, you can rotate the stick too, about 10 degrees each way - it allows for spinning - that's a neat trick 😅
do an aileron roll!
I managed to find a Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 at a thriftstore recently. Not in the box but the stick was in great shape. Plugged it in and despite its age it works great with windows 11. Think its going to be a nice stick for ace combat
I actually implemented force feedback in a game in the early 2000s. This was my first job as a games dev at a studio in Germany. We had very much fun. With the right commands (and some sticky tape on the security sensor) you could make these things walk around the table or dance to music. Unfortunately sometimes good things have to come to an end. The company ran out of money, force feedback support was one of the first things to be removed from the game. Somewhat later I lost my job and many others did as well. The game was completed by the remaining staff with very little resources. It was released in a bad state and became a flop. By theat point I had moved on in life. I never played the final game and I never owned a copy.
Always wanted one of these back in the day! Now I have 2! 😊
1997 was 26 years ago??? God I feel old, I miss the 90s, best decade of 20th century and better than anything the 21st century has offered so far
I’m 26
Help me xD
The 90s didn't have Half-Life 2 or advanced AIDS treatments that meant the illness wasn't a death sentence, or total access to the collective knowledge of all humanity in my pocket. So how is the 90s better?
"Nostalgia is heroin for old people." - Dara O Briain
@@theblackwidowerYes, but the 90s had Wing Commander games, checkmate.
@@funghazi The 2010s had Elite Dangerous. UNO!
@@theblackwidower Yeah but on the other hand it was actually possible for young people to afford homes, people weren't all at each other's throats, and there weren't a handful of corporations in complete control of all discourse in the name of maximally packing advertisements into everyone's brains. Technologically we improved, but socially we regressed and by a lot. It's not a hard point to grasp, so stop playing dumb.
I have the Sidewinder Force Feedback Wheel USB and it's a force to be reckoned with! I never had the Force Feedback Joystick but it's never too late to try out a piece of history, I'll keep an eye on local online markets for the USB version 🙂
My favorite of the in-store demo was the helicopter starting. I can still feel the phantom swirling motion. Thanks for bringing back that memory. I always loved fore-feedback. I always thought that it was the future way before all this VR/AR.
I had a set of DSS-80's and only got rid of them a few years back. GREAT speakers! The subwoofer made a great foot warmer. We also had the Game Voice and this joystick. My brother-in-law is STILL using the DSS-80s and still has his game voice and joystick in working order. The AWE64 was a royal PITA sound card!
I miss the CompUSA in Greensboro, over by Four Seasons mall. I’m from Asheboro originally.
You gotta love how fast the entire gaming industry adopted haptic force feedback as soon as people saw how simple it is and yet how immersive it made Star Fox 64.
I still have mine. Played DOOM, Jane's ATF (Advanced Tactical Fighters), and Mechwarrior 2 and 3 with it. I still remember the calibration you had to do when starting DOOM every time. I got it at CompUSA in White Plains, NY. The hours my father spent on tech support for Jetfighter 3 trying to get the Sound Blaster card to work with the game. God bless his soul. He never got it working so he got me Jane's ATF instead. Ended up being a really good decision. I learned so much about flying and military aerospace from that (very realistic for it's time) game. Back in the day a sound card (no on-board sound existed) could fail to function correctly with your software and actually cause it to crash. So even if you didn't want sound you still couldn't play the game. I remember my dad trying every combo of DMA and IRQ thinkable. And he was a Information Systems Director at a fortune 500 company.
I had a fully enclosed cardboard "cockpit" setup for MechWarrior and other combat sims in the early 2000s. The best flight stick I had was like a $50 thrustmaster and some pedals. It would have been amazing to add this and I remember seeing it in stores and catalogs.
Still got mine (Sidewinder 2 specifically), those motors are insane! Real workout to using one of these. :D
My main issue is that the stick itself is, eh, tacky plastic. Still, one of the best feedback sticks of all time for it's power alone.
Playing IL2 was a heck of a lot easier when you can 'feel' the plan starting to stall or get a bit rough in flight for whatever reason.
Hey, I’m a latecomer and I love your videos, and I appreciate the fact that you don’t f(screw) around with your jokes while keeping it (relatively) classy.
I remember seeing the advertisement video for this among the demos included with Flight Simulator 98. Really takes me back.
Partially because of you I went and purchased 4 sidwinder force feedbacks two pros and two FFB 2's. I had been thinking about them for awhile but this really sold me.
Man I was jealous for my friends who had this joystick. Besides the force feedback feature, it was just really good joystick, competing with the real high end offerings at the time and for a long time after. Although the force feedback feature was pretty dubious in a joystick, it was much more useful in steering wheels. I'm still using my Logitech G25, from the era before Logitech became utter crap. It really adds to the feeling, especially when combined with VR goggles.
Just as an FYI LGR, that opening that looks like a fan port actually was a fan port on some of these sticks, my friends has one.
the blinking cursor on the black transition page....love it.
I got a USB SideWinder Force Feeback 2 back in 2003 when that installation of Microsoft Flight Simulator came out. It still works to this day, and it still feels awesome to play the current Microsoft Flight Simulator on it!
Thanks for clarifying that force feedback is different than rumble. Not enough people realize that and use the two terms interchangeably.
A buddy of mine had one of these back in the day, and it was awesome to play Star Wars Episode I: Racer and MechWarrior 3 on. Especially the podracing, the force feedback would shake you 7 ways from Sunday when you crashed.
I just bought one of these and I'm glad that you had a video on it. Just downloaded the CD. Great Video!!!
Wow. Middle wallop caught me off guard there! I used to live that way as a kid as my dad was in the army there. Nice video, I had one of the later usb Microsoft models and loved it!
Thanks for doing a video on the Rolls-Royce of joysticks! I picked up one at a flea market but never got it to work. A normal Sidewinder was always my go to stick. Gotta love Microsoft!!
I had the original Sidewinder FFB as well as the Sidewinder FFB 2. Left my old FFB 1 behind when I moved to a different country, simply because I had the FFB 2, and the old one couldn't work on newer systems, as you described. I still use my FFB 2, though mostly as a regular secondary joystick. I loved the old FFB games, but there simply isn't much support in newer software, and it's really sad. I played so much Flight Sim and Combat Flight Sim on my old FFB, and I really miss the immersion it gave. I even used to get the DirectX SDKs mailed to me on a CD in the post, and I distinctly remember the DX7 SDK including a bunch of cool FFB demos, and support for coding all the effects yourself. I may have had more fun building my own FFB experiments than I even had playing games. Good times.
Oh yes! I still have sidewinder Force Feedback 2 in use. What a legendary piece of kit, have played all MS flight sims from 2001 thru today with it.
It's time we get more Microsoft hardware! The new flight sim releases being so revolutionary have more than doubled the price of flight sim equipment on the market nowadays.
This is a great example of rare modern regression in technology, modern joysticks literally aren't as good as they used to be, with the possible exception of the similar genre of Car racing wheels and pedals, which have gotten alot better.
Wow what a nostalgia hit. I got mechwarrior 2 bundled with the sidewinder joystick back in 1997, and that opening cutscene blew my mind as a kid. honestly as a 9 year old that joystick and MW2 were too advanced for me and I barely played MW2 properly until I was a few years older.
I still use my non-forcefeedback Sidewinder Precision Pro (which had an included gameport to USB adapter) in modern games like Elite Dangerous, which I also play in VR. It works great, and I don't know anything currently on the market that I would ever want to replace it with.
I remember when I first bought it, I had seriously considered getting the force feedback version of he Sidewinder instead as it was sold right beside it. But the price difference was too big for me to afford, so I ended up with the Pro instead. In hindsight, that did allow me to continue to use it right up until this day, since there's no issues with support for it in modern systems.
Clint, thanks for the little trip down memory lane. I had a lot of the SideWinder controllers as a kid, finding them at thrift stores. I remember playing Combat Flight Simulator (and the other FS games) a lot with my Force Feedback 2 joystick. It, and my other controllers, are still out at my mother's house. I should retrieve them.
I think an big reason for the disappearance of force feeback joysticks is just lack of interest in joysticks in general. In the 90s, almost everybody had a joystick for PC games. These days, that position has been supplanted by the gamepad. Sure, the immersion and fine control aren't there, but they're a lot more convenient to use and store. It's still a shame we've not seen more products hit the market, though, considering how popular the FFB2 still is.
(I swear the only SideWinder controllers I didn't have at some point were the second generation sticks like your FF Pro and the Precision Pro and the late cost-reduced products. The FF Wheels were awesome too!)
I started working in a computer shop in 1997 and bought this joystick right at availability. Still have it, but it is not set up currently. Your video made me wanting it even more to be used again - I did not know that Episode1 Racer supports it, since I did not have it back then, but I bought it recently :-)