Vinyl noise: Fact or Fiction?
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- Опубліковано 9 кві 2020
- Steve runs down the voodoo about surface noise, clicks, clicks, pops, hiss, etc.
I was traumatized by a record cleaning machine, • How I was traumatized ...
My primary LP playback system: SME 15 turntable, SME V tonearm, Ortofon Cadenza Blue cartridge, Parasound JC3+ phono preamp, Pass XP30 preamp, Pass XA25 amp, Klipsch Cornwall IV speakers.
#analog #vinyl #audiophiliac - Розваги
In other words, digital recordings are so clear and precise that you can hear the air in the studio. When digital came out the elimination of tape hiss and record surface noise were revolutionary selling points. I think they still are.
Great points Steve!
I listen to vinyl, CD, SACD, Hi-Res files, and I’m a musician who loves live music too.
I own many recordings on all available formats. In those cases it was a fun journey to compare them all only to find there was no clear winner!
I love audio options not audio arguments.
I simply don’t care what the medium is. I just choose the right medium and the right recording for the right mood.
It is amazing how surface noise, hum (if present), and hiss seem to disappear once the needle moves from the lead-in groove and into the music.
I think buying used records and cleaning them is the way to go. As someone already mentioned, its amazing what crud you can get off an old record. Most of the modern (current high volume) pressings I have heard are inferior sounding by comparison. Loving the channel.
Thanks Steve! I recently started buying vinyl records again (after some +25 years pause) and I did experience surface noise and wasn’t sure what was wrong with my tt or the record... Lots of comments about surface noise on the web, but coming from you now I know there is such a thing as surface noise. 👍
Fact. It's physics. You are dragging a stylus across a vinyl surface. Both contact points wear and hence you get surface noise.
Just resurrected my vinyl collection and I am enjoying the music. It's not about the equipment, it's about the emotions triggered by the music.
Amen, bro.
If there is no contact, there is no friction and no friction, no electrical signals generated. Or maybe you Einsteins found something else.
"Vinyl Noise: Fact or FRICTION?"
Fact AND friction
I use the Spin Clean, clean new and old records. At times the difference
is incredible. I do it to save wear and tare on my Cartridge as well. 😎
It's a great product at a very reasonable price!
Just ordered a Rega Planer 1 and really looking forward to many months of vinyl playing plus when we are out of lockdown searching through record shops #subscribed
RIP, John Prine, Hal Willner and Bill Withers.
Fact: Vinyl noise is real to me. And it drove me crazy. Exactly why I gave up on LP's, not to mention only really connecting 2-4 songs on almost any vinyl record of the 3,000+ LP's I used to own. And I was a picky and careful as anyone could be as a vinyl owner and it was a never ending battle with clicks, pops and noise. I'm a digital guy through and through. And I could care less about hi rez. But it's all good for whatever floats your boat.
Same here. In 1983 I bought my first CD player, Akai CD-D1 (still have it) Popped in Pat Metheny "Offramp" and have never looked back. Still have a few thousand LP's. Haven't fired up my turntable in years.
Michael, Matt and Aci...totally agree...a black background is what CD's brought to the table. Purchase good recordings. Steve
talks like the old is new but digital music is almost 40 years old.
Wait, you COULD care less...?
The only problem with digital today is the fact that shitty retailers refuse to sell CDs. Best Buy decided to get rid of CDs because their lie was everyone streams. No one wants physical media. Yet they filled the shelves with vinyl and took away our choice as if we live in communist China.
Fact! Pops and POPS! Just played side 1 of vinyl. Then played a cd of the same tracks. That cd sure did sound sweet. It cost me $5 and didn't need to spend more to clean it.
I was listening to the wall on youtube and it gave me an idea. I decided to have some fun so I put the first record on, as well as the CD and streamed the hirez version. Where I could switch back and forth between all formats. Even on my cheap uturn turntable the vinyl version sounded the best, pops and crackles and all.
@@scottyo64 I've been toying with getting a "better" phono stage, but now that I'm playing with the USB into the computer feature of this Rega mini into Audacity, it's a lot of fun to do. Part of the program is to be able to "delete" pops (if you want to go to that length).
@@JohnDoe-np3zk Have to check that out, you kerp getting me to spend money!
@@scottyo64 Much of that vinyl sound you prefer is due to the vinyl recording/playing process favoring even order harmonics. Mechanical systems have an intrinsic preference for even-order harmonics. These sound pleasant to most ears. Digital doesn't favor odd or even order harmonics, so your comparison is predictable: suddenly, you hear the odd harmonics. Then, there's the aliasing caused by imperfect 'brick wall' filters used in pre year 2000 (especially 16/44.1) digital recordings, and the resultant aliasing that can be really disturbing.
Nelson Pass, in an interview, describes a test they performed. They took two identical amplifiers and speakers, but in one they added circuitry that boosted the even-order harmonics. In a blind test, amongst experienced employees and audiophiles, about all showed a preference for the system with added/boosted even overtones. Only the harmonics were the difference.
I finally subscribed Steve, after listening to dozens of your videos! I got the Spin Clean last year, and on some records it makes a huge difference. I had a used copy of an album that had constant noise throughout to the point of being unlistenable, that went away entirely after a cleaning. I bought a decent Denon moving coil cartridge for my Rega, and have gone back to listening to vinyl 98% of the time. I'm glad I kept almost all of my vinyl, I regret buying exclusively CDs from the 90's until not long ago. I have several copies of the same release on vinyl and CD, and have done A/B comparisons. My CD player isn't bad, it's about a $500 NAD, but the richer full sound and realism of vinyl wins every time I compare them.
Fascinating Steve. I think sometimes we worry too much about what we can’t hear. Enjoy the music, because our aural memory is actually quite short it’ll sound different every time...
Wow - a veritable flood of vinyl focused episodes - and looking at the comments I can see why you might not be inclined to do a lot of these! I would stipulate that we learned to filter out the noise, sub consciously, like people that live near trains or freeways don’t “hear” them after a while. My current system is WAY less noisy than anything I had growing up, so with that “training” I had, it’s not even a thing. I love my CD, SACD, dvd-a and blu-ray, but when I return to vinyl it’s like I rediscover something organic that was missing. I don’t care if it’s psycho-acoustic placebos, whatever it is, I just like the way it sounds, and feels.
My tinnitus took care about surface noise and the need to hear absolutely nothing but music when playing a record.
See? There's a plus side to everything.
Great topic / video Steve. IMHO, a good test is to play music at the volume you like, lift the tone arm, and see how much system noise you're dealing with. In my case I found changing to a MC cartridge and step up transformer offered a significant improvement in the noise floor. Testing using 70's MoFi LP's made with "JVC quiet vinyl" is also helpful in demonstrating the potential noise floor.
Amazing episode.. I remember thinking about this so much during my cassette days
Yes, Steve. I recently returned to my 40-50 year old LP collection in order to pass on and part with many of them on ebay. This after selling my Thorens, Hafler, Magneplanar MG system almost 30 years ago. I too have been thoroughly surprised to see, and hear, how carefully I must have treated those records, way back when! (I remember using the DiscWasher brush/solution regularly.) I certainly DO like what you do here on UA-cam.
And since recently acquiring a new, much improved system, I can still say that my approach to the 'OCD' tendencies toward vinyl hygiene taken by some of our fellow audiophiles lines up squarely with yours, as you spoke of in this video. I find myself nodding my head in agreement with things you say when there is not another living soul in the room. In fact, I just laughed as I wrote that. You take the time and make the effort to speak thoughtfully. I think your viewers value that, like I do. Thank you.
Wow, I had no idea you were as old as you are. Such a timeless soul.
any surface noise I get on my old and new records are fine, as long as it disappears when the music starts, I do clean my records and take care of them. With that said, I do get somewhat pissed when I get a new record and it sounds worse than my old 50 year plus records! great video Steve! be safe...
After listening to records it's hard to listen to anything else. I've tried but I'll take surface noise over compressed music anyday. Great video 👍
Neil, don't listen to compressed recordings.
@@deevnn That doesn't leave much to listen to. I used to cut masters, and all vinyl must be compressed somewhat. The cutting process simply won't tolerate a wide dynamic performance without huge sacrifices in groove spacing, thus playing time. Selective compression was required. Tape was almost as difficult. In the past, both were simply the best we had, not the best empirically. Back then, I would have been very heavenly happy to have 90 dB of headroom for a master. With reductions in aliasing and process distortion at 24/192, the medium becomes pretty transparent.
Thanks for putting things in context, I am a digital guy who recently got into Vinyl (for my daughter- wife doest not believe it). Coming from digital at first the surface noise was a little distracting but after a while I am getting used to it and enjoying the whole ritual of listening to Vinyl. I initially bought a Debut Carbon and Schiit phono preamp and upgraded to a acrylic platter, and bought that spin doctor machine, carbon brush, stylus cleaner, other accessories. I am enjoying all the hands on experience. Is it better than digital, I would say it is different and still enjoyable.
Hi Steve. I think there are broadly 5 kinds of surface noise.
First there is the noise of the needle on vinyl plus rumble from platter. This, you cannot get rid of...part of the process.
Second there is noise from static charge which can be considerable reduced if the record is cleaned and zapped with a zerostat gun. If you spray the record with fine water mist it almost vanishes. Wet playing is magic but probably not good for the stylus.
Third there is noise due to crud and gunk on grooves or stylus tip. Cleaning both gets good results.
Fourth it comes from a worn, chipped or damaged stylus. All records thus played produce surface noise. Change the cartridge/stylus and it's gone.
Fifth there is damage to the actual grooves by grossly large downforce from a heavy cartridge not balanced by the tonearm previously. This damage is permanent and sounds more like crackle almost (half) as loud as the music. More on this last issue. Old vinyl that was played on heavy ceramic cartridge decks has this permanent damage. I used to have one such deck from HMV as a kid in the 70s and almost all my early lps have this issue, especially those that were frequently played. LETS CALL THIS RECORD WEAR. A more recent experience will shed more light on the subject:
About seven years ago I bought a brand new sealed Ricky Lee Jones lp. It was super quiet. I used to play it on my Garrard grey greasebearing 301 with an SME 3009 SERIES ONE arm mounted with an ortofon moving coil SPU in the original Bakelite headshell through an ortofon verto step up trannie. The headshell plus cartridge weighed 25+ grams and no other tonearm to my knowledge can balance this with adequate counterweight (not even SME SERIES TWO). One day I mounted said SPU on the standard headshell and tonearm of my TECHNICS turntable and dialled in as much counterweight to reduce tracking force as possible. Stupidly before I measured the downforce on a stylus weight digital gauge, I lowered the arm onto track one side one there was this crackle and by the time I reacted 6 seconds had gone by. I lifted the arm in a panic but it again got accidentally lowered for 2 seconds. Now whenever I play this record on any of my 5 working turntable with properly balanced cartridges, I have to brace myself for the two spots of crackle I the same place. Its permanent.
There is yet another kind....where the noise rides the amplitude of the music and gets louder on loud passages and softer on soft ones. This is still a mystery to me.
Perhaps you should do another video distinguishing the above types of noise.
I am a 54 year old audiophile, music lover, drummer and lawyer from India and I have another query... I run 5 pairs of speakers simultaneously through 7 200 rms+ solid state amps in my acoustically treated 18x27x12 listening room. Concert level sound, chest thumping bass. What are your thoughts about this....had sent you a detailed post in comments on your video re: how many speakers do you need. Recd no response. But if you do reply to this post I'll fill you in on details, even pictures of the room and gear. I follow most of your posts and am a fan of yours !
The way you explained it at 2:00, but also, quality of vinyl would vary so much, in those days. I remember our Neil Diamond album for "Jazz Singer" was this THICK vinyl that could handle anything, but my vinyl of the 80s guy Falco, that thing wore out quickly, being produced on less thick stuff. I remember looking for the thick LPs like those made by Columbia.
It's been my experience that listening to records with headphones makes the noise much harder to ignore. When I'm listening over speakers, it's very easy to ignore. On headphones, I can't get through a record without getting annoyed.
i bought a copy of the white album on white vinyl. it played 3db hot on my tape deck.
I always wondered what that was about. Sounded like heaven.
I'd love to help you with your reminder count, but I hate them & turned them all off. I go to my list of subs & can see which ones have a new post. Your always at the top of my list as most watched. I'm almost religious about watching yours. Keep up the great work.
If you're buying second hand records, which you definitely should, a record cleaner makes the world of difference. It doesn't have to be crazy money, mine was £50. They make a world of difference. A guy who was retiring in work recently gave me an immaculate first print of Rumours. First play a few pops, a quick clean & they're gone. And we don't have to be in 2 camps, I love digital & I love vinyl.
rocco036 I’ve bought a few new LPs and I’ve searched out several “older” ones. Hands down, the older ones have much deeper, richer sound. Some of my very best were recorded on the Verve label, I’ve also found that ones labeled A&M are good.
I don't think many people are concerned about hiss or tape noise or room noise because those things are steady, constant throughout the recording. I can easily tune that out. The crackle and pops on vinyl aren't constant, so that becomes much more annoying. Occasionally you get a really loud pop that really ruins things, or worse yet a scratch that just keeps on popping with every revolution. Lots of fun there!
I think over the years our ears get accustomed to a certain sound, vinyl or digital, and that becomes the sound we associate with good music, even if neither is completely accurate. For me, bass and drums are supremely important in the majority of what I listen to, and digital simply does that better, so I am drawn to digital more. Also, there is a lot of music you just can't get on vinyl.
I like to make cassettes from vinyl onto the Nakamichi ZX-9 because even without dolby it seems to make the pops go away or if I do hear them it's not like a diamond scraping against vinyl like nails on a chalkboard. Also now that I am starting to make digital recordings from vinyl onto computer there is opportunity to remove scratches and pops
@@JohnDoe-np3zk I did the same thing but with a DAT recorder. After getting the recordings right, I transferred them to CD-R. I tried a few times to decrackle recordings on the computer, but I never liked the sound I got, so I just left things as they were. I think my DAT deck sounds better than my sound card on my computer, so I am happy with that. I still play some of my records on the turntable on occasion, but I have a pretty good copy of the rare ones on CD.
Once the needle hits the music the pops and surface noise almost disappears depending on the condition of the album.
The music experience is more fuller, tonally far superior to my very good digital sources. I still collect CD’s because I can pick them up for $3 from thrift stores, but I save and splurge on the occasional vinyl album when I can afford to. Just love the sound quality and experience of spinning a record for serious listening.
Those Cornwalls make good shelves!
Freak Out! Fascinating album. That such things ever were...
Nice reflections.
As for the video title, I would say that the noise I hear in the first rounds of the vinyl before the music starts is pretty much a fact. And I hear some of that afterwards as well... 😉
LPs are a demanding format but when you get all the variables right like proper vtf proper alignment and vta man they can sure sound amazing
I think one of the cool things about being into the Records Is that you can color your sound by picking different types of cartridges this is kind of like being a mixing engineer you can decide how detailed you want your music to sound or how warm you want it to sound their are so many different options and that is exciting as a listener
Reading what the vinyl lovers do to make a listening experience acceptable makes me feel smug in my decision to abandon vinyl for digital. I know, I’m a bad person and I apologize for that. Seriously, I think digital lowered the barriers to enjoying audiophile-quality in cost, comprehension and effort. Mid-fi prices today gets one much closer to the music than similar (adjusted) pricing in the 1970s. I don’t regret selling my vinyl a decade ago, and when I come across a formerly owned album on streaming, I USUALLY hear the digital version as better than my recollection. The hi Rez release of Toto’s Africa is a notable case in point. But if some of you are enjoying my old records, I’m happy for you, no snide intended.
Paul Cragin I think folks should have all the sources available, when I see a killer album my hands start to sweat and I buy it. I look over lovingly at it in the passenger seat as I drive home. This doesn’t happen with digital but I still listen to it.
Doug G I like it. For you, it’s a multimedia experience, and I concur. I cannot figure out why neither Amazon HD nor Qobuz gives an option to full screen the album art. They also have trouble citing the Conductor AND Orchestra when there’s a featured soloist, eg for a Concerto. In a recent listen, the Hi Rez sticker covered over the Conductor and the meta data did not cite him. Sigh.
Stay safe Steve hope you and your family are ok and pull through this -keep up the great work. Some Aussie records were pressed so terribly with garbage vinyl they are terrible .Records i hardly played even first time were terrible - Think we had some dodgy record plants
Surface noise is relative, but some is almost always there! I've heard very High End vinyl systems and, guess what, FRICTION, lol! Digital, properly recorded? Dead silent. Lasers? No friction. Physics, perhaps?
Vinyl Fundamentalists have great faith in the medium. And, the fact that you can spend and spend on TTs and accessories helps people keep the faith! I say, whatever floats your boat. If Analog were superior people would not have to proselytize for it. We'd all agree, no?
Donbusto, great comment.
Records... 3% THD on a good day. Limited bass response. Limited peaks and dynamic range.
I was so glad when digital was invented.
I have MANY LPs that sound better than the CD counterpart... it's all in the MASTERING! I also have CDs that sound better than their LP version. Quite simply, the mastering can make or break the final product. My latest example was my Danny Elfman So-Lo LP.... I only own it on LP, and my friend brought his CD over, so I could copy it to my iTunes. The CD sounded terrible (limited bass & dynamics!).... it was clearly mastered from a poor master tape. I instead, recorded my LP to digital, and gave the MP3's to my friend.
@@TheMirolab Yes, it's the mastering. Thank you. A badly mastered CD (too much density in the mix, too much loudness war, RIAA preemphasis accidentally included, etc, can make a CD sound worse than the LP version. HOWEVER, all things being equal, the CD is the more faithful medium to the original master.
I'll tell you one more thing: the stuff that gets printed to CDs and LPs and tapes is garbage compared to the masters. I had this shown to me in spades last year when a customer gave me a tranfer from a RCA 2" master tape. I've heard the song many times since 1967 on every media, but the band never sounded like they were in my room until I heard the master. No processing, no peak limiting. No eq. Just the musicians and their instruments, raw. It was a revelation. I also realized that with the extra 20dB of peak information, no normal domestic stereo system would be able to play it at decent levels without clipping. But on a monster system, it recreated the real experience.
Currently I'm ploughing through a collection of about 200 classical LPs that I bought; with the intention to resell. (The problem is how many I will not be able to bear to dispose of!) The concentration of the age of these is 1970s. There is some noise, but the nature of it is mostly like a separate instrument. It doesn't muddy the music, the instruments are sharp and well focused, so the noise, vinyl noise, tape noise, cutting lathe noise - whatever - doesn't t spoil the experience. And the point is that the performances are incredible. So no problem - involving, organic music. But this was before digital mastering of classical music - beginning in the 80s - and that's a totally different story!
Paul Reichel
Well said, Paul.
Digitally mastered LP's, the worst of both worlds.
Yeah, I like what you do. Thanks so much.
Good one Steve.
Some of records from my teenage years (70's) sound good with limited surface noise issues. Others, not so much. I took moderate care of vinyl back then, occasionally dusting off the LP's with one of those silicon cloths. The ones that I spun all the time (every day in some cases) did not hold up that well as the ones I played infrequently.
As a person from the digital era..I like the crackles and pops!
I take very little persuading when it comes to records sounding livelier and having a greater presence than digital, although newer recordings seem to be mixed/mastered to sound like a CD! However, I bought some beautiful This Mortal Coil records, wonderful thick sleeves, exquisite pressings. But guess what? I had to take every one of them back, due to warps, excessive surface noise and even fingerprints (on a sealed record!) The replacements were only marginally better. This experience instantly transported me back to the 80s, and repeated trips back to the record shops to exchange poor quality records, and to suffer the eye rolls of the shop staff! So, whilst I totally understand your preference for vinyl, I’m still glad I went almost exclusively digital in 1986. I’ll take the hit!
Steve, love your videos. I'm having issues with cartridge overhang and alignment. I have several protractors and a MOFO Geo disc. Plus a Technics overhang gauge. The Geo disc works good but finding the tone arm pivot point is only an educated guess at best. With the protractors, it's hard to see where the stylus lands on the null points. There are also two overhang measurements. One from the turntable spindle to the stylus tip, which is 15mm, and the other which is from the head shell connections to the stylus tip when mounted to the head shell. It seems that I can get close to the null points but then my overhang is off a couple of mm. What is more important? Overhang or alignment? It seems also, that whatever I do the sound is still good. My primary turntable is a Pioneer pl 570, not the cheap one from the 1980s, but the one from the 70's I have read online that the distance from the head shell connections to the stylus tip has a recommended overhang of 49mm. But my gauge for the Technics is 52mm. How important is the accuracy of the cartridge alignment? Could you possibly do a video on cartridge alignment? Also, do I really have to change my tone arm height when I play a thicker record? Thanks.
I was obsessive about handling my records even when I was 15 years old.
Thats the issue I am encountering as a new Vinyl guy, I am super paranoid about dirt and cleaning LOL but it is kind of fun
@@MAELOB Well try to have fun and not let it overwhelm you.
In all honestly i usually stream music on spotify but nothing can compare to the sound of a turntable crackling. People might hate the cracks and the pops but I love the cracks and the pops because it shows the age and it's just so satisfying.
Same here
When you describe hi-res digital vs analog it sounds similar to an art school (mostly between painters) argument: suggestion vs depiction. Accuracy can only take you so far...
Ohhh Steve, you're asking for it.
The digital devotees will be up in arms! LOL
I agree with you on many points.
I appreciate a good CD, SACD or lossless file, but when it comes to critical listening and truly getting into the music, it's vinyl for me.
Every LP I've purchased since I got my first good turntable (Dual 1219/Shure cart.) in 1971, is still in perfect condition. There might be one or two with slight, rare "pops", but no more.
I've never owned a cleaning machine.
My only ritual is to clean every side, about to be played. I clean that side with my Discwasher brush with a tiny bit of cleaning solution on the lead edge. No exceptions, when a record is placed on the platter, it is cleaned.
I have a zerostat for the rare times static is present...it too is from 1971.
Anyway...people complain about the trouble and expense of maintaining vinyl....I frankly haven't experienced it, unless spending 20 seconds to clean the surface before playing, is too much time or trouble for someone...to that I'd say they have other problems!
I think I love you 😄 indeed there is a little surface noise, just accept it ...and yes slight hiss from a tweeter, I also have a friend that obsesses about all of these things and he is therefore never happy with his system lol. Thanks Steve, love your thoughts and words, Rich, London
A record washing machine is truly valuable! Some LPs need that extra-special wash. Not all LPs, of course!
Hey Steve, thanks for sharing your passion! When you are checking out speakers, what audio do you use for the demo? Me, I personally use Bach Toccata and Fugue in D minor, and YYZ by Rush. I think both of those hit everything. Your thoughts? Maybe you can make a video about this subject
Good topic Steve. I like lp records from the 50's through the early 80's; but I don't like surface noise. I have one album from about 1952 that is excellent when it comes to being quiet. Their are a number of labels that put out a consistently good product, Angel Records is not one of them. I do have a cleaning system that works for me. My cartridge is a Soundsmith, it tracks at one gram and I need to brush it clean after each side. For modern recordings that are done digitally, I prefer to just get the cd. I don't have a bone to pick when it comes to digital or analog; I like them both.
Steve, their was a filmmaker who was watching your video and he said: "His left hand and arm are all over the place, it is very distracting. His presentation would be much cleaner and more relaxed if he could cut down on that by 75%." Keep up the good work.
I'm buying quite alot of used vinyl these days and clean them with the project spin clean . You would be surprised just how much crud you find in the tray..
And I buy more of the 'bad' cheap used vinyl these days, then I clean them up. amazing value.
And for the spin clean; you can make the fluid very cheap yourself. It's Water, Isopropanol and a drop of washing up fluid. I don't remember the amount of each ingredient, but yo can find it online.
It's strange that a lot of stores which sells turntables they don't sell record cleaning machines. I also recommend the 'gel' cushion to clean the stylus.
filofilo I use the Spin Clean and the 33RPM wand with a small vac to get the water off. I’ve thought about getting a motorized cleaner but I don’t want to make permanent room for something the size of a small suitcase.
Does anyone remember the K-Tel record cleaning machine?
Surprised you haven't reviewed the Sweetvinyl sugarcube. With the sugarcube and the low floor noise my Ikura turntable produces with the Nagaoka MP200 cartridge, I can't see having a system without a sugarcube attached to it. I would love for you to review it.
The problem for me is with classical music where you often have long stretches at a very low level, hence the background noise can go from inconsequential to intrusive. Cost of records, postage cost of records, unreliability of 2nd hand, storage, unavailability of a bulk of classical material on are all big issues.
....And that hole that is so often not in the middle just kills anything with sustained notes.
Having said that, the right recording and vinyl record absolutely can easily sound more 'there' when fully on form - though for my listening iv'e written it off.
ps - given listening tastes, nil amp hiss is a real bonus - thanks hypex!
Yup, most of my records hardly have any disturbing audio clicks, pops, etc. and those that do have that noise, it doesn't bother me in the least as long as it doesn't interfere with the music. However, that is fine on rock, pop, etc; but when it comes to classical, one little click sends me to crazyville. It bothers me not because I am some snob or something, but precisely because of those quiet passages. The clicks or what have you seem amplified. Fortunately, pristine classical records are not hard to get, so one of those and a proper cleaning usually leads to an acceptable listen.
Dynamic Range and maybe quality press are important here!
I like listening to both high res digital audio, mainly using Tidal and vinyl. I’m sure most would agree that whether it’s digital or analog it’s all about the effort that went into that recording. By far the biggest advantages of digital is ease of use and way less noise. Because of this I listen to digital the most of the time but I agree with Steve in that I believe vinyl just sounds better on most recordings that I like. I like his description of organic just seems more natural. Now having said that also say that vinyl is way more expensive. Yes you can get a vinyl set up pretty cheap but in order to get the real benefits of vinyl you really need to invest in a good preamp, turntable and cartridge.
Oh dear, I hear my tweeters hiss too. Once the music starts, it's all good then. Vinyl or CD.
Using an old amp that could use a recap, there is a LITTLE hiss that drives me crazy before the music starts, both channels. Perhaps it's something to live with!
I always hated the tape noise and vinyl surface noise. When I first put my hands on CD's I was in heaven.
I agree that, in my experience, the better the analog front end, the quieter it will be and the less noticeable will be the imperfections of the record that produce noise. And maybe a $20,000 turntable/arm/cartridge/phono preamp ensemble would sound as quiet as my $1,200 sacd/blue ray player (I play red book CD's as ripped lossless files). But I am neither a 1%'er nor someone with industry connections to get dealer discounts, so I think the numbers in that comparison speak for themselves. (And I do have a turntable, etc. but for years I've only used it for favorite recordings that didn't make it to CD. )
Steve, Enjoy your video's very much. I have a nice, modest system, Peachtree Nova 300 Int amp a good CD player and a very old Kenwood turntable from the 70's. A good aftermarket arm, and a very old Shure V15 type four MM cartridge. A pair of JBL 590's I don't know whether its the old cartridge, which obviously needs replaced, as the sound pales in comparison to a Good CD being played, or a HD track from Amazon HD service. My wife agrees to the sonic difference. The CD offers a sonic clarity and PUNCH that the vinyl just doesn't. I listen to Rock and Roll mostly. Any advice would be great!!! Thanks so much. Robert TN
I was working in Record Stores while in college in the early 1980s and I can tell you that the quality of pressings for both new releases and catalog titles was pretty dismal during those years. Could have been the advent of the cd format (I remember when our cd selection was 12 titles). At any rate, poor quality pressings were part of the reason it was so easy to be smitten with the relative silence of the cd.
Fast forward, it is such a joy to dig through crates of records again and find great old pressings of a fav recordings. Eye balling the condition and discerning what is dirt and grim that can be cleaned and whether any scuffs or scratches amount to a rejection. So many great records from the 50s and 60s that have survived remarkably intact and quiet.
Your 54 year old record still sounding great to this day, Steve, shows that when you take care of your records, they really will last a lifetime. My High Res experience always comes from vinyl.
Back in the day Direct to Disc was super impressive.
Bought some so called Audiophile records thinking they were going to be better than my original 60's & 70's ones . Many sounded worse!
Some cartridges do better than others with surface noise. If you're lucky, you can get a very quiet surface, but it's never a sure bet. I have purchased many records with loud pops and clicks right out of the wrapper. I grew up with vinyl, still own a Nitty Gritty Pro cleaner, and I'm under no illusion about what might be lurking in those grooves. I believe the noisy surfaces is why classical music jumped to CD as fast as it did. I believe it's the reason why the headphone fad broke out coincidentally with the pre recorded cassette and then the CD. And you never really knew what you were going to get until you actually. played it. The oil embargo era of the 70's was particularly bad, with all the recycled vinyl being used.
Some sort of sound is always present. Different sources are continuously generating it. System hiss/hum. Groove/Stylus friction. Acoustic feedback. CMB (Cosmic Microwave Background) described by Wilson and Penzias in their 1978 Nobel Prize. If it exists, it's probably making some noise, detectable audibly, or visually as color.
I often wonder what Van Halen I would have sounded like if it were recorded with the same care as say Dire Straights or Supertramp.
All I know is that when when I get up in the morning that’s it’s time to check in with Steve while I have a cup of coffee.
Thanks for that!
Best way to remove noise which is cheap: 1. get gold pins for your pickup (audio note) 2. Put An-P audio note RCA on your phono cable, removes about 60% noise. But if you want to go all in and get the best then TT2 or TT3 signature audio note with a q3 pickup and an audio note riaa, most riaaś sound really harsh/limited.
Hi Steve. I was a recording engineer and I created vinyl back in the 70s. We always had an EQ at the cutting head. Ensuring the stylus does not jump off the groove, low bass was always rolled off and mid bass boosted. Slightly. This is the "organic" result you are hearing. The same can be done with any cheap EQ if you compare that sound with an (untouched) digital version off the same master tape.
Keep in mind too that with digital (re-releases especially) the Loudness War gets into the mix too, so compression is often added, reducing the dynamic range!
The true comparison of vinyl vs a digital release can only happen if you had the original master tape, cut your own vinyl (whatever the final EQ), and captured that cutting head signal as a digital file at the same time.
And, finally tho, what about the RIAA correction during playback and the cartridge used? Take 2 different vinyl playback systems and the output will be different as well. Take two different DAC outputs into the same power amp and speakers, and their difference much less so.
The vote for digital vs vinyl is not about it being 'organic' or so, as that is the subjective experience one feels. If you want to really claim one is better it must be considered objectively. first.
We need someone to do this. Take an analogue 2-track final master tape. Include too a 440 Hz test tone. Put that on vinyl. Whatever the signal going to the cutting head inverse RIAA device is also captured as a 24/96 digital file.
Play that digital file and set up the system for the best sound you can get out of it. Then try the AB test across several DACs. Note the best DAC and put it aside.
Then, using the test tone on the vinyl get the same playback output level. Try different RIAA/cartridge/turntable combinations until you find the best one of the set. Now do an AB test against that and the 'winning' DAC output tested previously. Then tell us the difference.
That will be so cool! COS NO ONE HAS DONE THIS BEFORE.
Or, FORGET THE DISCUSSION that vinyl is more organic than digital etc and just ENJOY THE MUSIC. It's like the pepper in our food. You like less, I like more. A very subjective thing indeed. No need to discuss.
There's no such thing as simply "note the best DAC and put it aside"! All high end DACs are really good, and subjectively different... and maybe different ones better for different music. Just because one person does your test, would not make it "the winner".
@@TheMirolab Correct. I should have made that clearer. "Put aside the one you found to be the best", etc. Likewise the analogue side. Then compare the two. If off the same single fed to the vinyl cutting head, I would love to hear if "organic" actually still happens!
I only have about 950 records. All cleaned with my SpinClean. You should see the junk on the bottom of the tray after 20 records after cleaning the used records.
I am neither an analog nor a digital person. I enjoy them both (especially DSD).
But, first of all, the amount and level of record surface noise has been exaggerated. Especially on correctly cared for records.
But most of all, I find it so easy to 'listen around' what little surface noise is there. It's kind of like looking through a window at a beautiful view, but the window has a couple of smudges on it.
Vinyl noise is not an issue for me, and while I do agree that often sounds more "musical" than digital I don't think this has anything to do with resolution. Several of my excelent LPs were actually early digital masters (e.g. Dire Strait's Brothers in Arms) also seem to sound more "alive" than my digital sources. So maybe vinyl simply adds some form of coloration that (some) of us humans find pleasant?
This ^
Like the seashell example . . .
I also take care of my records.
Record cleaners are great for cleaning used records you purchase that are dirty.
I use a Spin Clean with distilled water and it works well.
How much noise you get, also depends on the shape of stylus you have. They don't all read the groove in the same way. So one cartridge will pickup more noise, than another cartridge will, on the same LP. So if you have a cartridge with an elliptical or conical tip, and it catches a lot of groove noise, you can try out a cartridge with shibata or microline tip instead. Going from one type to another, can reduce noise. It can of course also get worse, but that depends on how badly your vinyl is damaged by time and use. Sometimes switching to a different stylus shape, can sound like you got a whole new collection. The difference can be quite big.
Not on subject but I purchased the Denon PMA-600NE per your recommendation. With my Klipsch r15m's I hate you and love you now. I can hear things in the drums and strings that I never heard.
In the early 90’s I packed up my records when I got my first CD player because of the lack of noise on cd. Due to marriage and work I stopped being an audiophile. In 2000 I got a divorce, moved into a loft and started to listen to music more seriously. My girlfriend, now my wife, gave me an iPod and I thought it would be cool to transfer some of my old vinyl to digital. Long story short, my Dual 510 TT had died. So I went down to the needle doctor store and took home a MMF 2.1 with an Ortofon Super OM 40. Ran my old diskwasher dry over a copy of Led Zeppelin and let the arm down and was blown away by the great sound of the record. It wasn’t until Stairway to Heaven I notices the absence of the surface noise,clicks and pops. What had happened? I concluded better table, stylus, and changing lamp cord for 12 gauge speaker wire and a better deck lowered the noise floor and let the music come through. My vinyl collection has grown from about 50 or so to over a thousand, went from the MMF to a VPI Prime and a Quintet black. Love my vinyl and my CDs. Usually prefer vinyl over digital.
Spot on. I’ve been using “organic” for years to describe how I feel about records on my turntable. I play digital when I’m multitasking. A record demands I sit and listen...
This is why vinyl is so special though. You bought that (very badass) Zappa record in the 60's, and you still spin it! Show me the CD that still plays in 6 decades.
Having only recently got back into vinyl, I have been somewhat disappointed with the few reissues I have purchased. I guess the talent pool is in very short supply now regarding the pressing of high quality vinyl. My older records generally sound better with a lower noise floor.
I would not bother with vinyl without a rcm. I live in a high humidity location and mold is common on older records that have not been stored in ac. A good clean and it makes them very listenable, depending on many factors.
I would love to see Steve review the Swet Vinyl Sugarcube devices that remove pops and clicks. Not sure why he has not, as far as I can see. Seems like a very clever although expensive solution to badly treated records.
@1:28
"...and this is sort of a worst case scenario because the record is extremely old."
Steve, the worst case scenario would include:
-- not setting the effective length of the tone-arm
-- not setting the cartridge's weight
-- not setting the vertical tracking alignment / rake angle
-- not setting the anti-skating
-- not setting the overhang
-- not setting the offset
-- not setting the zenith angle
-- not setting the cartridge's azimuth.
The worst case scenario includes when a cartridge manufacturer installs the stylus into the cantilever at an improper angle. This happens occasionally on multi-thousand dollar cartridges, and probably happens regularly on sub-thousand dollar cartridges.
90%+ people set almost none of the above.
Perhaps many people set the weight and the anti-skating.
I estimate that 1% set everything.
So when you have your turntable / tone-arm / cartridge misaligned, as most people do, then you get surface noise. You still get some surface noise even when everything is dialed in. But you get tons more surface noise when any of the above is not correctly dialed in.
And as you noted in this video, you would keep re-purchasing the same album over and over, trying to land one that sounds good. Most folks do not do that. Most folks do not realize that no two pressings sound exactly the same, and that their sound quality can vary wildly.
So of course your (Steve's) vinyl playback is going to sound great, while others get fed up with vinyl, because you (Steve) have cherry picked records playing on a front-end that is dialed in with precision, while others are playing random pressings on turntables that are out-of-whack.
Like having your car's tires rubbing against the curb, people have their cartridge's stylus screeching against the wrong parts between the record grooves.
A properly set-up $500 cartridge will sound better than a haphazardly set-up $5,000 cartridge.
Folks:
If you want minimal surface noise.
If you want to hear vinyl like you never imagined it could sound.
Then get your turntable dialed in, and play hard-to-find quality pressings (the only way to know it is one of the rare gems is to play it -- you cannot go by looks or sale's hype, such as heavy vinyl, etc).
Cheers!
As an only child growing up, no one touched my record(s) but myself. I have Elton John records purchased in 1973, and they continue to sound just as good as the day I, or should I say my parents bought for me. How do I know this, because I made cassette copies for my carry along tape player. If there was surface noise, it is between tracks. Even though I had my own stereo, I also played them on my parents huge RCA console stereo.
Back in the day Christmas records were notorious for surface noise. They were also cheaper than the average record, unlike today.
The records that I have purchased in the past four years, i have experienced little to no issues with surface noise. However, a warp record appears to be common these days. I will exchange if the warp is severe enough.
Picture discs are known for very loud surface noise. I try my best to stay away from those.
Just remember to clean the disc before play and after. The same applies to the stylus. And, Don’t use the LP as a tray to bring your friends drinks.
I have a silly one for you. I suffer from Tinnitus since I am 18. I'm now 57 and they are here with me until I go meet Franck Zappa and the mother's...
Tinnitus made me lost few dB at 4k Hz. So each time I can hear a Vinyle Noise Surface, I forget about the Tinnitus. This is heaven during 2 Mili seconds.
I've been living in Paris and played CD before Spotify makes me forget my CD and Vinyle Collection. Could not hear any noise comming from the HiFi, except the music. Now I moved to country side, I have a silent house, silent neighbours, no horns, no moped, no motorbikes Noisy exhaust, no police, no fire, no ambulances, no stressed car driven that cannot wait behind the garbage truck, but still live with my super friendly Tinnitus and Vinyl surface noise. BUT I DEAL WITH THEM much, much, much better. Country side is the place to ear music and improve your HiFi equipment, but this is quite expensive I must admit.
Thanks for sharing your story. Especially the happy ending!
Why hit the bell? Who needs a notification? Your here every day.
Like your video's
Steve, as you were noting, some of the controversy about record cleaning is about surface noise. In my opinion and based on my own experience, the greatest benefit of employing a higher end ultra sonic cleaning machine is (no pun intended) in the improved sonic result. As for the record noise, sure, no one would argue that there's improvement there too, but again, in my own experience, surface noise has more to do with a particular pressing and or overall condition of the record itself - for a person to expect a mediocre, somewhat noisy pressing to magically become completely quiet because of record cleaning is a false expectation. As for myself, the improved sound I've derived from the ultrasonic machine I'm currently using is an undeniable step up in sound compared to the vacuum type machine I've used in the past.
It is fact but it is a trivial fact. I agree that a good arm and cartridge will minimize surface noise. I noticed a significant difference with my new Rega Planar 3 over my older turntable. I also use a vacuum record cleaner and treat each record with LAST record preservative. Since I have had the Rega, it is hard to listen to anything digital. The tiny amount of noise is a small price to pay for the joy of analog. You hit the nail on the head-"there is more there there" with vinyl.
I have LPs and 45s that I bought in the '60s and '70s that do not have clicks and pops because I've always taken good care of them. The only time I get a noise is when I failed to get the record dust free, as long as the record has no defects of course.
I gave up on vinyl a couple of decades ago and personally could not go back to it either. I remember in the late 70's when they started to churn out thinner vinyl to save on the pennies and every time you brought a new LP is was full of static. I actually used to literally walk out of a record shop with my new album and take it straight to the HiFi shop to get it cleaned. They had the same cleaner you described which has a tube that puts some solution onto the surface of the record and a vacuum to suck it all away and it used to cost me £1 to have an album cleaned.
To be honest that cleaning system did remove the static from the record and that is why I continuously took my albums to them to clean, but it was only for those albums that were thinner and less than 180 grams. I have also noticed that recently since the rebirth of vinyl again they are starting to do the same thing and put out vinyl on 140 gram vinyl which in all honesty is inferior and why many people were moaning about the vinyl release of Ozzy Osbourne's latest album.
It's very true that there is noise in all recordings but comparing the noise that is generated from Vinyl in comparison to Digital. Vinyl wins the loudness wars regarding the levels of noise by a long shot. My poem I wrote about vinyl describes the very truth of the matter and in all honesty I don't think anybody could argue the point either.
Viny L your plastic pal the plastic all round mover
Whenever he took a needle he became a bit of groover
His surface was nice and shiny and needed a lot of attention
Otherwise he would snap crackle and pop which very few would mention
He attracted static and even scratched although he could not rust
Not even his anti static bag could keep away the dust
And if the needle got clogged up and stuck he would start to stutter
Viny L could even warp and was made to wow and flutter
The silliest question ever asked!
Hey Steve,
I've stumbled upon LPs that are touted as Master Tape reproductions. Some kind of higher quality LP. What do you make of this? Have you tried them? Is it like CD vs SACD or MP3 vs MQA?
Stay safe.
Cheers from Montreal.
I really don't get vinyl, I grew up with it and even preferred casettes. But CD is just so much better. Even today my Wadia S7i sounds better than my DSD DAC.
With my old Thorens/Ortofon/SME set up, I could play a blank vinyl record, and watch the Servo-Statik's 18-inch servo-feedback subwoofer flop back and forth at the turntable's rumble frequency. It was too low to really hear, but it sure soaked up a lot of power. You could feel the air moving if you put your hand near the woofer cone. Perhaps below audible rumble is one of the pleasant colorations of vinyl listening. Subliminal?
The Mofi phono stages have a subsonic filter and are supposedly very good price is rite
@@JohnDoe-np3zk Yep. Aware of subsonic filters, and actually used one! Worked very well.
The biggest source of noise I hear is during the run-out or very quiet sections where you can just hear the needle against the bare plastic. That being said, some of my more marked up records sound quiet and the cleaner ones sound dirty. Go figure!
Its not the molecules of air you hear when you put a shell up to your ear, it is the sound of your own blood supply moving around reflected back down the shell (including the flow in your fingers and especially your thumb amplified by the shell, as it is at the small end of the horn they touch), the shell's collation of the background noise, the white noise you will hear at night (again, somewhat mostly your own body).
if you've experienced the perfect playback, noise can be a spanner in the works.