27 years as a Trooper and. 12 as a State Agent as. A Undercover Narcotics. I have trusted my life to a J-Frame for all of those 27 years. The gun is NOT all you spout it off to be. You can get some lighter loads and the J Frame is very shoot able.
It sounds like your and my multiple decades of experience with the Smith & Wesson J Frame are similar. I'd trust that a little more than the opinion of some guy that drama queens it up when he shoots one. "Owwww!!!" 😅
i think an important thing to consider is any decent self defense round for a tiny airweight J frame is ultimately going to hurt your hands to shoot but in an actual self defense scenario, your hands hurting a little bit is the least of your concerns, if you can even feel the pain past the adrenaline you would have in that situation.
Here's the case for the pocket revolver: (1) the point of civilian self defense is to break contact, not close with the adversary, (2) the overwhelming defensive use of a firearm does not involve actually having to discharge it but merely displaying it in a show of force, (3) the J frame is light and fits easily in one's pants or jacket pocket, which makes it ultra convenient to always have with you, (4) it can be fired from inside a jacket pocket without the adversary even knowing it's being pointed at him (a semi-auto will jam if you try this), (5) it can be operated easily one handed which is critical in a grappling situation, (6) it can be fired when in physical contact with the target (a semi-auto can't), (7) in an up-close defensive use of a firearm, the sights are minimally if ever used (8) while statistics are obscure, it would seem that most confrontations where there is a discharge are resolved with three rounds or less (i.e. the FBI's old canard about the average gunfight occurs within "3 yards in 3 seconds with 3 rounds") so a five shot revolver in most circumstances is likely "adequate" and (9) people who promote the benefits of capacity for a civilian's self-defense weapon are perhaps tacitly acknowledging the "spray and pray" aspect of the semi-auto and are not adequately emphasizing the importance of absolute fire discipline and the need to discharge the absolute minimum number of rounds (if required) because there is a potential prison sentence and lawsuit attached to every bullet which goes astray, thus militating against the cliche that "more capacity is automatically better." Yes, the p365 and Glock 43 are superb, and yes the pocket revolver absolutely is not a beginners gun, but for a dude willing to regularly train with one, a J-frame loaded with wadcutters is an ultra convenient pocket monster that will get you out of most any jam. For what it's worth, I'm a retired Army officer but started out enlisted, serving as a Special Forces Weapons Sergeant.
Number 3 isn’t based in any actual evidence. I don’t think 5 is really much of a benefit honestly. 6 is arguable for semis. To the others, some validity!
You can easily operate a semi one handed unless you are carrying on an empty chamber...but if you're carrying on an empty chamber then your firearm is more of a magic talisman for you than a weapon.
I have never seen a revolver stovepipe or fail to cycle from an improper grip and to me it’s easier to operate when waking up from a dead sleep. If it doesn’t go bang for some sort of fluke reason, then squeezing it again will produce results. The only real drawback is capacity and hence the importance to win quickly and reliably helps with quickly. Plus it helps that it packs a punch when time is critical. A J-frame is at least a 5 or 6 times better choice over having nothing.
The weakest point here is number 2, which comes pretty close to asserting that you don’t actually need to be proficient with your gun because you’re unlikely to need to ever pull the trigger. If you take this argument to its natural end point, you could say that we should all carry toy guns or airsoft guns because they’ll scare off a bad guy just as well as a real gun. Obviously no one here would agree with that. If you carry a gun, it needs to be a gun that you can shoot very well. Number 9 is a pretty weak point as well. You’re implying that people who carry semiautos don’t aim because they know they have more ammo capacity, while revolver carriers will be careful because they only have 5 bullets. I think the risk of collateral damage actually favors the semi, given that snubnoses are much harder to shoot accurately.
@@ASPextra Wow, after he shot I was like "thaaaaats not...that's not right. After she shot I was like....do I even have that much recoil control?" Very impressive.
@@DWalter.27 About all you can do, can't angle your wrists forward and lock out quite like a Auto. All you can really do is crush the damn thing with your dominant hand.
I carry a snub nose revolver %80 of the time, it's what I can comfortably appendix carry 14 hours a day. I have a range in my backyard so I shoot a lot.. 😎 A snubby takes a ton of training to be proficient, it absolutely isn't a newbie sidearm.. great video!
@@davidhoffman6980 Great. There's a technique to the double action pull but any competent shooter can figure it out. The single action trigger is the best trigger I have on all of my guns. I just like it because I can commit to carrying all day/everyday and I don't have to hassle with magazines or "plus one" rounds.
If you are an instructor, please do the shooting world a favor and stop saying/teaching "trigger PRESS." It's not a press. It's a pull. Tacticool guys, who are terrified to be an individual, all say "press" because everybody else does. These are the same guys who all have the same beard, same sunglasses, same jeans, always wear a ball cap, and all use the same lingo/verbage. They are sheep, not shepherds. You press away from yourself--press a button, bench press weight away from you, etc. You pull toward yourself--pull a string, pull a child out of traffic, pull a trigger. You don't "push an oar" you "pull an oar." There is no shame in saying "trigger pull," because it's exactly what is happening. Anyway, be bold and speak/teach accurately! PULL that trigger!
@@Defossion1 I understand the nuance between the two actions and what they are intending to teach. I get it when it's applied to say 1911s. However, the term "trigger press" should never be applied to a double action revolver. You are most definitely pulling that trigger. Your finger is Miva in a big horizontal arc while you're doing it to. Nothing you can do about it.
As a plainclothes criminal investigator for over 25 years and dealer in firearms for 18, I became a fan of the Smith & Wesson J frame series as an absolutely excellent concealed carry self-defense option. It exhibits the very best, and most important, characteristics of a concealed carry handgun of any type: concealability and extreme reliability, and good wounding capacity with the right ammunition. On-board capacity of five shots exceeds what is necessary for the vast majority of self defense encounters. For all his whimpering about the sights, they are sufficient to make head hits at 25 yards, and accuracy with good ammunition is excellent. Are they a beginner's self defense choice? Maybe. But quality practice is important with any platform.
Over the 10 yrs I've been carrying, I went from a Ruger LC9, to Glock 48, to Sig 365X Macro, and have settled on a S&W 360PD, loaded with +P cartridges for EDC. It's super light, point and shoot within 20 feet, and I never worry about optics crapping out, or mags dropping/jamming. If you can get proficient with these pocket revolvers, you'll get better at pistol shooting in general.
I routinely carry a j frame while doing yard work and other physical tasks. Around the house/yard/farm its light, comfortable, doesn't pinch. But when i venture into civilization, its replaced with a Glock 43x
My 10 year old son and 13 year old daughter each shot a box of 38 special + P ammo out of my “stock” j frame 38 yesterday and they had a blast. They never complained once about recoil. Pull this guy’s man card now!!!
I actually ended up snagging one of the new S&W 442UC's specifically because it addressed my issues with the snubnose; its got actual sights instead of having to resort to painting the front sight and having a gutter for a rear sight, a much smoother trigger than other S&W J-frames I've handled, and grips that are just barely big enough to get all my fingers wrapped around it (or 4.5, since I'm only getting half my pinkie around it) and they don't look like they're designed to make my shooting experience miserable in the first 10 rounds.
You started your experiment with an extended “this gun sucks” intro. Maybe you should have let them “shoot first and ask questions later.” And we never saw their hits. Your boat paddle analogy is spot on. I use that all the time. Training makes the difference from beginner to competent with any gun. For someone who is basically competent, the adrenaline dump is less of an issue. The revolver always rests in its safest state. Are other guns better? Yes. But all require training and practice.
i dont like how he brushed off the risk of a gun jamming or stovepiping as well. I would argue that is a legitmate downside to autoloaders. now they are rare with good ammo and a good gun but I would argue the ability to just keep pulling the trigger and it keeps firing even if its pressed up against somebody is an advantage. especially when it only requires one hand.
Success with the J frame is mastering the grip. If you practice and understand the J frames capabilities and limitations, it works in more situations than you can imagine.
I could see 20,000 in a full size 9mm as that wimpy cartridge by design always feeds. If he said it was also 10mm or .40 S&W JHP, i'd laugh for a long time.
If you know what you are doing and practice it, you can ‘stage’ the trigger and make it like an SA, accurate and controllable. I’m a big fan of the J frame.
I recently added a j-frame to my carry load out and it’s definitely an expert gun. I love it! I would never recommend it to a beginner. I’ve had training with my 686+ revolver, so I feel more confident with it. Great take on reliability.
Dryfire with a DA/SA firearm can make for amazing trigger control. I really enjoy shooting my DA/SA pistols (a CZ P01 and P07)...but I carry a striker fired P10C. As usual, awesome content, John!
I have a 85 year old uncle who is a retired US Army captain. He has been shooting a J frame chief’s special since he was very young. He has a garage full of trophies from all the shooting championships he won with his J frame. Now, I’m not attempting to debunk your observations because I agree with most of your conclusions. My uncle is an expert, but it just goes to show that a person can get really good with whatever they train with. If you shoot a J frame for 70 years, you will most likely be really good with it. Same goes for any other other gun/trigger.
That lady is all muscle…works out like a beast obviously. Shot that light pistol with the hard recoil like nothing. I have a S&W MP 340 and with full load 357 magnums it is brutal on your hand bones…but devastating for a target. It is really made as a back up. I can see a niche use as firing from within a jacket pocket through the jacket since the hammer is internal…but that’s about it other than as a back up. Sort of means you aren’t using a pocket holster though which isn’t good.
Right now I i do Uber for work. I picked the S&W 638 since I figured I'm most likely to encounter a bad guy in my sedan. I don't worry about limp wristing using my non-dominant hand reaching over my body, out of battery, trying to thunb a safety with my left hand while I'm driving etc. I'll purchase a p365 down the road, but I figure at the moment the revolver made the most sense for my niche position. The DA has been a fun challenge, and now my friend's semis feel like switiching from a stick to an automatic. I shoot better than them now, thanks revolver! I'm a new firearm owner and I've been binging your channel for weeks now. Thank you for your life-saving content. May God keep you close!
The place that the J-Frame still really shine is as a backup gun in an ankle holster. Very capable with this platform but not my choice for a primary EDC firearm.
All valid points. My wife and I had our first permits when there were no viable options, 1911's or revolvers. I carried a 1911 and she carried a model 65. We trained a lot and were very proficient. Times change and are better now.
Yes, the small snubbie is not a great starter pistol. Yes, it does require work to get and stay proficient with them. Dry fire practice with these guns is pretty much mandatory to get good with the long, heavy DA trigger. I'd say it is still a very good tool to have in the tool box and far better than the proverbial sharp stick if you need something to defend yourself. I never feel underarmed carrying my LCR down to the corner store or wherever.
I carry a Taurus 605. I chose it specifically for the extra weight in the front end to curb recoil. When you load it with 38s, it is a dream to shoot. Long trigger pull, but I prefer a hammer on it. When I fire one round from this gun in .357 magnum there is a huge ball of flame and it is LOUD. Tweekers that would mess with me would more than likely start dancing like in the Thriller video and bug out. I also have a K frame 686 plus that I carry and shoots like a dream. Hate all you want, Its my life and mine to defend. Did just fine in 3 combat tours
Improved trigger on a J frame means a $15-$20 spring kit and a small screwdriver. Fast follow-up shots can be superior to a semiauto: no reciprocating slide means improved recoil recovery. And, for the record, those stocks are known as 'boot grips' and are the very smallest style available for the J Frame besides the OG Model 36 slim walnut stocks. The use of more ergonomic 'combat grips' permit the use of the pinky finger, and the full use of the support hand. An in-the-pants holster is extremely effective, especially seated in a car, and skilled use of speed loaders provides a quick reload. The argument of a problematic reholster is weak, in that reholstering after firing is typically not done in a hurry; there's no rush.
@@ASPextra OK. Revolver spring swaps are a wear item/consumable and amount to about as much "home gunsmithing" as changing out a recoil spring in a semiauto pistol. But I suppose you could pay a "gunsmith" do that, too? Again, a S&W trigger rebound spring swap is an inexpensive and easy drop-in for anyone with basic tools, as is a change of stocks on a S&W revolver, typically a single screw. And none of my other valid points regarding Johns complaints were addressed, lol.
I agree it’s not a beginner gun. But, it’s not that difficult. My girlfriend has no problem with hers in 38 special. She normally carries shield, but the little revolver is much easier for her to carry in many situations. Also, the new 32 mag from smith has 6 rounds and is much easier to shoot. Crimson laser grips work very nice with these little revolvers and eliminates many difficulties. You can also shoot from inside a jacket or coat. You can also shoot in direct contact with the attacker. She also likes that she can easily unload it without possible deformation of the bullets from repeated cycling in an auto loader. Meaning, she doesn’t to rotate cartridges in her magazines. There are always compromises.
Lasers are gimmicky, who's blasting through their jacket when every bullet has a lawyer attached, why is she unloading her gun constantly. My wife and I are exclusively j-frame carriers, but a lot of the benefits people tout online are overblown
@@DWalter.27 lasers are game changers with j-frames. We do not allow rounds in the chamber in our house. We have alarm systems and dogs to afford us that opportunity. You do you. I don’t care what you do or what you think.
My grandfather was a Bill Jordan fan, when we were kids living in the River Quay he'd make wax bullets for his snubby so us boys could target practice in the alley behind his house, to this day outta all the autoloaders I own I often more than not carry a Smith and Wesson J frame.
I inherited a 642 from my dad and as much as I love it, I can't argue with the points made in the video. Sight radius, very short. Capacity, nowhere near what one could carry. Trigger pull, down right insanely heavy and long. I can't fix the sight radius or capacity but I have polished the trigger and other internals and I've considered putting the Mcarbo springs in it. Polishing did a great job of making it a smother pull and a little easier to handle. I've carried this as my primary EDC and I feel good about it. I figure I have 2-3 shots to neutralize the threat and a couple left to get to safety before I have a problem to solve. With a semi-auto, I can double or triple that before I have that same problem to solve. Great video, as always, and I appreciate all that you do.
1) A good spring kit for the J-Frame goes a long way. 2) Understand that the J-Frame is a "get off me" gun. "Sniping" with a J-Frame is being able to actually hit the A-Zone at 25+yd 3) If you need to use your J-Frame, do so knowing it's your tool to give you the opportunity to run away after dumping 5 close quarters rounds.
I trained many years with a double action .357 duty revolver, so I'm pretty comfortable with these, and don't feel poorly armed when I have one. However, it can't be denied that it has many drawbacks that counteract whatever advantages it may have. Though I have carried it in a pocket holster, I don't think it's a good way to carry. It's slow and awkward to draw, and really doesn't conceal that well in my clothes. A standard belt holster is best. For newbies, there are way better choices.
My wife and I both carry j-frames, and your analysis is very accurate! I do want to say that for some people (like my wofe and I) a DA trigger just clicks better in their brain for them vs a striker, and for those people it's a lower barrier of entry. Additionally, that gun is half the loaded weight of the P635XL. Weight can be a big deal for some people, like me before God healed my back, which is why I went from a P365XL to a 340PD (with 38 wadcutters) They also carry differently than a semi; we're small people and appendix carry ours more effectively than we can a semi auto. The stocks make a massive difference in felt recoil. I have small hands and I actually get all of the strength of my pinky, even with the short grips you have there. But just having them fit your hands well cuts down on the pain. With my favorite grips (Hogue bantam, which are similar to the stock grip) I will do 357 in my 340PD for fun, it's a lot but it's doable. And finally, having a j-frame in 22lr is what transitioned my wife to one in 38. 38 was too much recoil to learn with, but once she learned with 22 she graduated to 38 and wanted to ditch her S&W Shield.
The Tyler T-grip adapter transforms the shooting experience without adversely impacting the footprint of the gun. I vastly prefer the Colt Detective Special over a J-frame. Lightweight frame materials like aluminum or scandium are trendy and cool in the gun store, not so much on the range. Neither the small Colt nor the S&W are suitable for a house gun. If you are committed to a revolver for a house gun, a K- or L-Frame S&W or similar-sized Colt or Ruger with 4-inch barrel and steel or stainless steel construction is the way to go.
Her control of recoil is outstanding. Watch her shoulders….the recoil energy flows through her arms and pushes her shoulders back…. I carry this same firearm and with practice it can be managed well. For me….it’s a perfect conceal carry firearm. As other owners of these j frames say…..simple and reliable. Actually…more than reliable…. They are foolproof as the only way it can fail is bad ammo… If you use factory loads for CC…you are always good to go.
I agree that, in general, that very lightweight revolvers are not beginner friendly. They can, however, be used to improve your trigger pull. Try shooting a full set of rounds through the gun. Then, put in some snap caps and dry fire a full set or two. Then, have someone else load it for you with a mix of snap caps and live rounds. You will quickly see when you are jerking the trigger. Try running a few sets until you can get through it without jerking in anticipation.
@@ASPextra Exactly, "jerking" the trigger is not a good thing. But many of us flinch or jerk the trigger in anticipation of the gun going off. This is a good way of practicing a smooth trigger press, and it helps you become aware of any flinch you may have in anticipation of the shot breaking. And unlike a semi auto, you don't have to do a failure to fire drill to clear the snap cap, you can just pull the trigger again.
Way back in the day, Sheriff Charles "Skeeter" Skelton tested a J-frame against a Walther PPK and found that .38Spl LRN bullets and 380ACP FMJ bullets penetrated to virtually the same depth in pine boards, so he chose the PPK as a thinner, flatter backup gun that held 2 more rounds that performed equally as well, and was easier for him to shoot (especially in single-action). I started carrying a S&W 640 in my left front pocket in 1995, then I switched to carrying a 642 in 1998, went back to a different 640 in 2006, then upgraded to a 6-shot Colt Cobra in 2019. I shot my 640 many times in multiple classes with Massad Ayoob and Grant Cunningham, and I learned that my 135gr +P Gold Dot carry ammunition would drop a man-sized mammal just as well as any 9mm or .45ACP load if the shot was placed correctly. Then, I picked up my Ruger LCP Max, and I found that it actually cleared my left front pocket just as well as any of my snubby revolvers, it held even more ammo onboard than any of my pocket snubbies + a separate speedloader, and it ran reliably through a few hundred rounds of FMJ plus a couple of boxes of Hornady Critical Defense .380ACP, which performed basically the same as the .38Spl GDHP load that I already carried and trusted. Carried in a Safariland pocket holster, it weighs, prints and bulges less than my 642, even fully loaded with 2.6× as much ammo. I get hits at 3-5 yards just as fast as any of my snubbies from the front pocket, it's less-expensive and less-unpleasant to shoot than any lightweight J-frame, and I can actually reholster it one-handed with the Safariland pocket holster. I love traditional guns as much as anyone else, but I carry guns that do the same job better for me, and not just because of preexisting biases...
Sure, for one shot... Shooting from inside a pocket is a great way to artificially restrict yourself to shooting at gut level or lower, unless you've unbuttoned or unzipped your jacket...and if you have your jacket open all the way, why not draw from your front trouser pocket? I live in Southern AZ, and I only need to wear a fully-closed heavy jacket for a total of maybe 30 days out of the year, so I'd rather just carry in my front trouser pocket year-round and train accordingly. Drawing completely out of the pocket and bringing the gun up to line-of-sight is a much more consistent way to get accurate hits in vital areas than hip-shooting blind from inside the pocket - especially when using lesser-performance loadings like .380ACP or .38Spl when fired out of short-barreled pocket guns. If you need to proactively draw a gun in the face of a threat, it's much more intimidating for the assailant to actually see the gun aimed at him, instead of your fist inside a pocket...which, TBH, seems to be more stereotypically associated with stick-em-up robbers than law-abiding armed citizens...
Learn to point shoot, as someone who has used a gun for self defense I can tell you that you may not have the time or the distance to use sights, you might want something that doesn't go out of battery easily also.
I actually took a class in Fairbairn-style point shooting, sponsored by Suarez International and taught by Matthew Temkin, in October 2007. I shot better than the instructor going into the class, and Gabe Suarez and every one of the students agreed that those two days had been a complete waste of time, money and perfectly good ammunition.
@@jasonashley4579Agree! As someone who’s been in a gunfight I only used the sights once, and that was in a well lit motel hallway to drop a hostage taker before he killed his hostage. The other two times it was either too dark (no night sights in the ‘70s) or things went down too fast to line up a sight picture.
I carry a S&W 642 during the summer in my pants pocket in a pocket holster. It is a hard to shoot gun. I carry Winchester Defender 130 grain +p hollow points. I have a set of Crimson Trace extended length laser grips. It is a handful but if you use a proper two handed grip it doesn’t hurt and is manageable. I will be getting to set up to use moon clips soon. I also have a 640 which I may start using. The 642 is not for someone that doesn’t know to shot well. The trigger pull is not an issue with training. If I feel I need to be prepared, I put my hand in my pocket on the grip. I completely agree that this is not a beginner’s gun but it has its place in the right hands.
When you go range shooting maybe not 100 rounds through a snubnose 38 but for a get off me gun, 1 to 6 shots defending your life, youre fine. Hes really looking at this all wrong.
Growing up I owned and shot many co2 double action only bb/pellet guns. The triggers are just as heavy sometimes heavier than real revolvers. The years of shooting co2 guns made me supper accurate with real snub nose/full size revolvers. Also i never had an issue with the old school 158gr lrn or the wadcutters
Shoot both auto and revolver like both carry both. Much discusiiona about small problems. Get plenty of rounds down range and decide for yourself what you want to use and when. Good health to all.
I thank you for this video, I am one who likes to through my J frame in my front pocket. Being a 325 lb. man who always likes my shirt tucked in, I need tips on best way to conceal carry . Please think about doing a video on this issue with several different guns.
We had about 15 people at our annual indoor low light fun shoot, and I remember at least 10 people using a P365 in some configuration (including myself). I know people say the G43x/G48 are popular, but we only had 1. The 4 that I remember, which weren't P365's, were: P226, P320, G19, and G43X (which broke the slide stop, snapped near the hinge point).
For awhile, i carried a model 640 .357 and a Shield Plus 9mm. It was a nice combo. The power of .357 rounds, or the capacity (15+1) of the Shield, depending upon the circumstances.
I’ve been carrying a light J Frame since my ‘68 rookie year & in ‘74 used a Colt DS (about the same size as a J frame) to win a gunfight w/three armed robbery suspects, reloading once under fire. When I can’t adequately conceal a J Frame I’ll go to my LCP, but that’s usually when wearing thin dress slacks. Also, your support hand thumb was in front of the cylinder and that could cause an injury. Finally, you’re absolutely right about the J Frame being no fun to shoot, but like you I’ve never had a failure of any kind w/a J Frame.
I grew up with the support hand thumb gripping downward crushing the primary hands thumb underneath it. It’s a grip that I found translates well for semi autos and revolvers. If you use that semiauto grip with the death ray thumbs both pointing forward, personally I don’t see any benefit plus it doesn’t translate back to revolvers. I’d rather have one grip for all guns rather than a specific grip for one type of gun and another one for a different gun.
Having taken Craig Douglas's ECQC class I'd say one area where a J-frame style revolver is going to shine is in a hands on grappling fight. In close physical contact with another person it is relatively easy to get an auto loader knocked out of battery so it doesn't go bang when you want it to. That doesn't happen with a revolver. It is also easier for the slide to snag when the action cycles leaving you with a one shot pistol. I think it is less likely for a revolver to get fouled like that.
It is easier to grab a revolver and jam the cylinder, though, so it's pros and cons. Also, I think that the private citizen is so seldom in the kinds of encounters that are grappling gunfights that it's a solution searching for a problem. I can think of literally one example on the channel. Now, if you're working undercover narcotics as a cop, that's a skill that will come into play a lot more for sure!
@@ASPextra I wouldn't argue with you that a close quarters tussle isn't a bit niche when it comes to general civilian defense. Might be a fun test to compare simunition pistols versus revolvers in a close grappling scenario (except I doubt you can find a simunition only revolver to do it safely). Fundamentally I don't disagree at all that the pistol is the far better choice for civilian defenders.
A reason as a small female I prefer not to carry a 9mm glock or similar...I go anywhere from 118-145 lbs over the years and I can't conceal them. Guys got pocket privilege but also bigger body frame and belly privilege & can hide a gun so much easier. I'm too vain to gain just to carry! Lol
As a regular concealed carrier, I agree there are much better options. In my use (LEO), I carried a J-frame as a backup gun on the inside of my strong side ankle in the event I was ever in a struggle over my duty weapon. This would allow me to draw with my weak hand and make contact shots since slide out of battery is a non-issue with a revolver. (The only holster I trusted was the Gould and Goodrich Bootlock, due to it being both velcroed and laced into place). I realize this is a niche use, but valid in this application.
The place for the J-Frame is contact fighting. My fear with SEMI's is an attacker closing distance snd actually making physical contact with at which rime i cannot make a "Punch Shot".
I love J-frames and have several. That being said I agree with you a 100% that it is NOT a beginners gun, even in the steel frame Model 40 and 49 versions that I have the recoil is substantial enough to scare away a new shooter. People that recommend these to new shooters are being irresponsible and making someone that was open to the idea of owning a firearm a potential future ANTI. Promote our hobby and the acceptance of CCW by making responsible recommendations to those that need guidance, even if it means a 22lr. Its better than a sharp stick. Great Video!!! Did I mention I love J-frames!!
Minor correction. 642 is not hammerless, the hammer is internal. Internal hammers on a revolver are to limit snagging and to prevent foriegn material from creating a blockage.
@@ASPextraQuestion for you. It is mentioned in the video about modifying the trigger to lighten up the pull. I have heard that such modifications should not be used on a defense firearm as that can be used against a person in a use of force case. In your experience have you seen this to be true at all or is this being overly exagerated?
I think the only time that actually comes into play is in a negligent discharge. Cosmetic mods can be very costly to keep out of court so anything with a political message or anything I would avoid. But if it can be explained that it makes the gun easier to use accurately and therefore more safely, shouldn't be a big problem. This is what good attorneys argue and why they hire good expert witnesses.
S&W 642/ 442 is an outstanding revolver. It's an excellent choice for concealed carry. One should not adhere to the notion that it is difficult to become proficient with. In a word: practice! Whether live fire at the range or at home dry firing with snap caps. Once the trigger pull is mastered, one becomes much more proficient. I'd advise that one should regularly put fifteen rounds through it after their session at range with whatever other firearm they favor. For defensive carry, I would recommend standard pressure hollow points such as Hornady critical defense or Federal hydra shok in 110 grain.
I have several J Frame revolvers but the only revolver that I will pocket carry is my Kimber K6xs. It cures most of the issues you detailed on this video.
This dude makes a lot of valid points about J-frames. It's good to have plenty of options, and people can look at the same issues and still make different choices. I think most of the issues he raised can be overcome with practice and training which is something he would recommend for all gun owners anyway. All that being said I still lean towards a J-frame.
So J frame in 38/357 or LCP in .380? If I want something in the ~12-17oz range (loaded) I will carry one of these. Both week side. Usually it is the M&p340 357 because I have more confidence in the caliber and I shoot adiquately at close range fastish. If I want more of something then it is (my wife's) P365x with 17rounders in a sling bag which is slow to draw, but all the other advantages.
I bought an LCP and 340 PD at basically the same time. Shot both, carried both, sold the LCP. I could just shoot the j-frame better. Since then I got a 22lr j-frame for practice and now I shoot them immensely better!
Interesting video. I have a Taurus 905 in 9mm. It is a steel alloy and weighs in at 21 ounces. I replaced the grip with a laser grip that allows me to get a full grip and negate the need to use the iron sights. This gun is heavier and provides a better grip and sighting than the one in your video. I find it pleasant to shoot. I use moon clips that make it quick to reload. The only disadvantage is the long heavy trigger pull which can be mastered with practice. You can also use the appendix carry with the holster and gun in your video.
Some tips to carrying a centennial 38.. paint the front sight with bright orange paint... Get yourself either full size hogue monogrips.. or packmeyer diamond pro full grips that cover the back strap.. and get all your fingers on the grip.. even with these two grips pocket carrying is no trouble at all.. another option is the rubber crimson Trace laser grips... This will absorb recoil and give you a full grip.. I have an 11 oz titanium cylinder centennial and I have no problem hitting quick shots out to 50 ft on Target of course I've practiced some which is the main thing you need to do with these guns
Last Sunday I shot a similar gun. 28 special with an 8 pound trigger. It almost broke my hand. The guy at the range said he has a .357 that shoots softer!
J-Frame (in my case 638 and 642 are my experience) is an awesome gun. Definitely agree that it is best suited for experienced shooters, and someone who is strong enough to pull that heavy trigger. This is not a fun gun to shoot, but it is a great pistol for defense. The rounded contour/shape of the gun makes it very comfortable to carry. Things that I've learned... checkered grips help me hang on to it... use a high grip ... I push my finger all the way through the guard and pull the trigger with the second segment of my finger, NOT with the pad of my finger.... dry fire a thousand times to get muscle memory and to learn the long trigger...
I carried a lightweight 38 in my pocket for 9 years. I dealt with feeling the results of my practice in my hand for 3 days after as well as the cost of ammunition. Last year I had to stop when I felt a strange twinge in my shooting hand. One can carry and shoot these guns fairly well, but you'll pay for that regular practice in more than just your wallet.
@@ASPextra Don't be. It was that, plus a scary incident last June that finally got me to put a serious effort into appendix carry and quit pocket carry. BTW, your posts regarding appendix carry were a big help in me making the transition.
Amazing content! Changed my mind about wanting one.. shot a revolver at an indoor range but didn't pay much attention to these things! Thanks to the volunteers too! :)
You still might want to look at a Ruger LCR. The 327 Federal Magnum version can be loaded with ammo that is both very shootable and meets the ballistics needs for stopping power. And the thing is, if your ability to handle recoil improves, you can load more powerful rounds if you wish. Lucky Gunner has excellent videos on the LCR.
I have been carrying a S&W J -frame 38spl since 1980 first a mod 36, then a 60,then a 649 & now a 342pd airlite in a shoulder,pancake.,iwb,ankle & pocket holster and try not to leave home without it
Well, here’s the thing though John, you made the case at the end for why a little revolver is the right gun for so many people: it can be neglected in a drawer for years and still do its job for a person who has never trained and will never train. It’s sad, but the reality is that a whole lot of people fall into that category. And such people can still benefit from at least that level of self defense capabilities.
Okay, I just think you’re planning on something that is really a non-event. Because actually getting to a gun during grappling is exceedingly rare, and 1/8” is all you need to make the semi work just fine. And revolvers can have problems in tight quarters with cylinder rotation too. Just some thoughts for you, carry what you want.
@@ASPextra I disagree, just look at all the Craig Douglas training videos while grappling with a gun. The guns go out of battery all the time. Hence, why many students made the switch.
Well, I actually analyze real defensive encounters and what we see happen in real life for some reason doesn’t seem to match what Craig shows in Force on Force evolutions. Seen plenty of close contact shots, and out of battery failures are unicorn events in the real world. Not sure what to tell you about that, but remember that FoF invites some artificialities that we should be aware of.
To start with, I completely agree with you that it's more of an expert's gun. You already name-dropped DB, Haggard, and Werner, so you've definitely heard their takes on the use-cases. And I would point out that even Bolke and Haggard (don't know about Werner) prefer a modern auto in the appendix and reserve a snubby for the pocket most of the time (DB has a Langdon PX4 or Boresight P365XL, Haggard had a Glock 48 with an SCD when I trained with him). One of the points people also made was that, in that pocket sized category, a revolver tended to be more reliable than a similarly sized auto, which had more to do with ergonomics and things like grip in sub-optimal conditions, or in a wrestling situation. However that is probably less true today with more commonly available, high quality, very small guns like the P365 (the same as the "but what will you actually carry?" argument) For what it's worth, the negatives of a snub like that *can* be mitigated somewhat using things like a wraparound rubber grip like a Ruger LCR, using wadcutters, or stepping down the caliber to something like .32 H&R or .32 Long. The sights, on the other hand, require you to buy just the right gun, and there aren't that many options. Even then, as you said, it doesn't deal with the very limited capacity, trigger which can be more difficult to learn, all that stuff.
Yep! I have a LCR that I shoot with S&W Long wadcutters just like you said. It’s a great option. I’m glad I researched using multiple websites and UA-cam channels before buying my guns, and didn’t only listen to reflexively anti-revolver viewpoints. Now I own several SAs and revolvers, and they all have their place.
i just got back from the chiropractor and my back is killing me. I usually wear a safariland shoulder houlster with a shield 2.0 around the house but when i got home i just couldnt take that shit anymore and thats my only way to carry without back pain usually. So now the rest of the night im rocking the j frame in a pocket holster and a reload (not really) in the way of a fixed blade push dagger on my belt lol. The jframe is my best friend that is always there for me when no one else is even if they are the least competent friend in the collection.
Good points. I actually thought the girl was carrying a demonstration gun too, to show something that is too big, since it was basically sticking out of her mid section.
@@ASPextra makes sense. I was not so much judging, but rather stating my expectations were wrong. She has way more experience than me, so I'm definitely not trying to judge. :)
In all fairness, there's variety even in j frames. A steel frame with an exposed hammer will be a better starting point for some. Maybe end point. I love my steel frame & it's still not too heavy in carry terms.
When you are only used to a semiauto with a shorter trigger press... the revolver seems difficult. Revolvers are underrated in today's world but when one is familiar with them... they should not be overlooked for defensive carry.
As a j frame 357 carrier, I too believe that the J frame is not for beginners. However, I also found this video to be disingenuous. They were holding too low increasing muzzle flip and felt recoil. The grip in a revolver is different than a pistol, especially on a hammerless. No pointers seemed to be given. Also, the inherent advantage of not being able to be pushed out of battery was not given, as was fired from a pocket. These points to some, might outweigh the ammunition capacity to others. And weight. My firearm loaded is about 15-16 oz. The p365xl with 17 rounds is closer to double that. This was glossed over grossly. I am absolutely not saying that the revolver is superior or even equal to 17 rounds of modern 9. I am saying that there are different tools for different jobs. I too have a p365x. I also have a lcp in a wallet holster. They each have their use.
You know, it’s almost as if I purposefully didn’t give them instruction to show the fallacy in the “it’s a great gun for untrained people” a test run without saying so.
It would be an interesting follow-up video to see them after 50 or 100 rounds. I get the "untrained" aspect. And again, I totally agree that and Airweight J frame is not a beginner gun. It would also be interesting to take a person who has never fired a shot and have them load and fire a steel 4" revolver and a high cap 9mm to see which they become more comfortable as the "person who buys a gun and puts it up in the closet".@@ASPextra
She had part of the reason for the J-frame’s existence right there on her abdomen the whole time. Many users of dot-sighted appendix carried guns print way more than they realize. The young man who shot first had a terrible “revolver grip”, choke up on that bad boy. The J-frame is not perfect by any means, and I routinely carry a G-19 or G-26 more than the J, but it is more useful than this video would lead someone to believe.
I agree revolvers aren’t for beginners and in a world full of small footprint high capacity semi automatic handguns there are certainly better choices for concealed carry. With that said I do think the revolver still may have a place in this day and age. I love the revolver for carry in gym clothes. It’s light and small so I can fit it in a pocket or in my waistband (in a holster of course) and cinch the draw strings to hold it in place. With my other pistols the gun is either too big for pocket carry or too heavy for the waistband of gym shorts. Also it’s convenient for running to the mailbox, grabbing the trash cans at the end of the driveway, or as James reeves says put it in your pocket while picking up a six pack at the gas station. You can of course use another pocket pistol such as an LCP and it’s probably ok choice. But as lucky gunner has shown pocket pistols still tend to be finicky and my experience has been the same. I choose the j frame over other pocket pistols because I shoot it better, and it’s more reliable. A pocket pistols is a compromise but it’s better than having no gun at all. I say if you’re gonna carry a pocket pistol make sure you shoot it accurately and that it’s reliable enough. Also if you need info on pocket pistols check out lucky gunner’s UA-cam channel! Chris has some good pints and things to consider when choosing to carry a pocket pistol.
I own that gun, and yes it is hard to shoot. I took mine and got rid of the crimson trace stocks and added some extended stocks and a wilson combat spring kit to lighten the trigger pull. Definitely better than straight out of the box, but still not an easy gun to shoot. I'd say it’s too light and hammers your hands when shooting it because the gun doesn't absorb any of the recoil. I love wheel guns, just not this one.
For a while I thought a j frame was about all I could conceal. Not the case any more. Modern holster equipment allows us to conceal bigger pistols. If you absolutely need a small pistol the G43, p365, or similar sized pistols give just as much capacity, better trigger, better ergos, and are just as easy or easier to conceal.
I know, completely agree. Once I realized that it was like the was amazing. Once you realize everything it takes to properly support it and all the nuance to it, It just clicks, and you understand how everyone else has been doing it.
That rear sight area can still be a problem for some folks (myself included). Additionally, it's extremely hard to find a gun lighter than a non-steel j-frame. And when you do they're all small 380's with many of the same downsides of a j-frame, plus a worse caliber and questionable reliability
I agree, definitely not a beginner gun. I do carry my LCR around the house when I wear sweat pants or sports shorts. It's very light and comfortable to carry for long periods. Generally, when I leave the house, I will carry my shield or something with 10+1. I tried putting a longer solid grip on the LCR in order to get a full grip. After 250 rounds thru it on one trip to the range, it left my hand bruised for a week. I went back to the softer short grip it came with. Nobody that has shot my LCR has wanted to shoot more than 10 rounds. I put thousands of rounds through it before I felt comfortable carrying it.
@@ASPextrathat’s exactly what I carry when taking the dogs out back to potty in the middle of the night. We get snakes and other critters at night though so I’m mostly worried about that.
Snubnose revolvers became popular at a time when small semiauto pistols were notoriously unreliable and hollowpoint 9mm/380 ammo performed poorly in short barrels. They’re almost obsolete now that small semiautos have surpassed them in most respects. You’re right that carrying a P365 or Shield is not much more inconvenient than carrying a snubby, but it’s much easier to shoot with higher capacity, better recoil, and better ballistics.
When john steadied up for that first shot, I thought "You know, having all that hair really makes him look slimmer." :) Because, you know, posts about his hair and appearance rather than the content make everyone so happy. :D
First rule of gunfight is to bring a gun. I have been carrying a SW 442 j frame in Albuquerque for 6 years and I love it for being very light and it is utterly reliable and simple. Of course I have been shooting revolvers since the 70's so I get how they can be tricky but I just know what works for me. No safety no issues with controls in an adrenaline dump while I am all hyped up. Blade Tech makes a IWB for J frame that is super comfortable and I carry all day every day at work and at home. I do think the triggers suck and I think some folks are working on new designs with better triggers and stocks. Love your channel!
An all steel 357( so you have the versatility of ammunition selection) with a 4 inch barrel is absolutely a great “only” gun for a person that just wants to own a gun and never train, use or maintain it. Nothing in a defensive caliber is easier to start with than a 36+ oz with 38 or 38+p. Airweight or Scandium, nope.
@@ASPextra I get it. A simple adjustment would overcome Jmes' valid objection and enhance his experience to appreciate and understand the features and benefits of the platform which you verbally explained clearly, compliments.
Hey Mr. John! I do Uber for work right now. I think a revolver for self defense in my sedan seems like the most appropriate weapon in case of limp risking with my left hand, a passenger possibly grabbing my firearm, someone wrestling me for the weapon etc. Do you think I'm off the mark? Thank you for your hard work!
I mean rule #1 of winning a gunfight is have a gun. :) so if a revolver meets that then great. But also a revolver in an entangled fight can be hard to operate and easy to foul.
Regular fan, FI and RSO here. Yes, the J Frame is an expert's gun; it should not be sold to beginners for general self defense. And good on you for emphasizing "IN A (POCKET) HOLSTER". Amazing how many longtime shooters throw one into the pants or jacket pocket or under the front seat without one. As for those who throw STRIKER-FIRED semiautos into their pockets or under the front seat without a holster...😳
I have recently switched from a pistol that's magazine fed to a .38 special because having a 64 round clip does me no good if it jams, and although my lcp 380 had only left me calling "time out while I fix my malfunction” 3 times the revolver has never had one.
That just simply not a true statement. You’re basing that claim off of your experience with a lower level pistol. You can certainly carry what you prefer but to make such statements show a lack of understanding and experience
I never said you should carry a revolver , I said I switched and I also never said that the lcp was the only sidearm I have I also have a 1911 and a PT 709 . I coach my grand kids baseball / soccer so the more concealed is better for me. Dude I hope your weapon never malfunctions. Over the years I have watched about every one of your videos and can’t count the number of episodes that I have seen some mag fed jam or misfire and have chosen to alter my daily carry to suit my personal preference...and my statement about the revolver being more "reliable" is based on every study I have ever read from reputable sources and how mechanically each weapon was designed and functions.
Reading studies from the 89’s might have you out of date but like I said, carry what you want. It’s difficult to see our own biases sometimes but today you’ve seen countless issues with pistols on the channel is simply not true and maybe shows a little of your bias.
Before watching the entire video my opinion would be that it would make a good backup gun for ankle carry, but of course you would also have a polymer frame striker fired pistol with an optic as primary. (No gun Amish)
Okay a few other advantages.. you can jam the muzzle up against torso and yank the trigger.. without it going out of battery.. no worried about rear slide clearance.. or ejector Port clearance... Limp resting does not affect the gun.. remember many self-defense situations are with a up close and personal struggle...
FYI..the P365 recoils just like the small revolver and if you would of given these two newbies to revolvers more than one time shooting they would of become more familiar with the revolver your test might be a little different. But you are correct when saying jams with autos have become less and less and the round count is a plus. I was a beginner back in 1982 when I first shot my S&W 19, it just takes practice as with autos too.
counter point - around 12:14 when you're talking about having to carry the j-frame in a holster, her sig P365 is printing pretty bad lol. My opinion on the matter. I don't think the DA trigger is as big of an issue as many make it out to be, even for new shooters. You can become accustomed to it relatively quickly with dry fire practice for free. Recoil is highly dependent on the individual, but I think if it's likely to be an issue, stepping down to a caliber like .32 ACP is a very good alternative. Although regardless, I wouldn't recommend having a gun like this as an only gun, I'd highly recommend getting a full size or target type .22 to practice the fundamentals with live. The sights I think are almost a none issue. For 10 yards and in, I actually prefer them because the big blocky sights prevent me from over aiming and IMO are quicker to acquire. At longer ranges they're certainly a problem, but for such a tiny CCW I think that's an acceptable trade off. My last thought, is I greatly prefer autoloaders for pocket sized guns. They're much slimer and easier to conceal, than even the j-frame and I think the extra capacity is a great benefit when you're dealing with so little capacity. I personally carry an M&P bodyguard a lot which is a true DAO and the sights are very much similar to revolver trench sights, but it's a good deal smaller and carries 6+1 rounds. Edit: Although I agree 100% on pocket carry. I carry my bodyguard IWB most of the time. I only pocket carry it in a jacket pocket, but if I'm wearing a jacket, I'm usually IWB carrying a larger gun.
29 year Federal LEO retired, former Army MP Captain, NRA Instructor, and YES, alloy J frames are awful to shoot. Never give a new or inexperienced shooter an alloy J frame. Steel framed J’s, like the 640, are passable. K frames even better.
27 years as a Trooper and. 12 as a State Agent as. A Undercover Narcotics. I have trusted my life to a J-Frame for all of those 27 years. The gun is NOT all you spout it off to be. You can get some lighter loads and the J Frame is very shoot able.
It sounds like your and my multiple decades of experience with the Smith & Wesson J Frame are similar. I'd trust that a little more than the opinion of some guy that drama queens it up when he shoots one. "Owwww!!!" 😅
Why would you want up use lighter loads for defensive use?
@@jeremyburris4890 if it's better for you to run the gun. It's about shot placement anyway. that's like saying a 380 can't be used for self defense
Guys that hobby carry guns giving an unrelated comparison review to a 365xl lol.
i think an important thing to consider is any decent self defense round for a tiny airweight J frame is ultimately going to hurt your hands to shoot but in an actual self defense scenario, your hands hurting a little bit is the least of your concerns, if you can even feel the pain past the adrenaline you would have in that situation.
Here's the case for the pocket revolver: (1) the point of civilian self defense is to break contact, not close with the adversary, (2) the overwhelming defensive use of a firearm does not involve actually having to discharge it but merely displaying it in a show of force, (3) the J frame is light and fits easily in one's pants or jacket pocket, which makes it ultra convenient to always have with you, (4) it can be fired from inside a jacket pocket without the adversary even knowing it's being pointed at him (a semi-auto will jam if you try this), (5) it can be operated easily one handed which is critical in a grappling situation, (6) it can be fired when in physical contact with the target (a semi-auto can't), (7) in an up-close defensive use of a firearm, the sights are minimally if ever used (8) while statistics are obscure, it would seem that most confrontations where there is a discharge are resolved with three rounds or less (i.e. the FBI's old canard about the average gunfight occurs within "3 yards in 3 seconds with 3 rounds") so a five shot revolver in most circumstances is likely "adequate" and (9) people who promote the benefits of capacity for a civilian's self-defense weapon are perhaps tacitly acknowledging the "spray and pray" aspect of the semi-auto and are not adequately emphasizing the importance of absolute fire discipline and the need to discharge the absolute minimum number of rounds (if required) because there is a potential prison sentence and lawsuit attached to every bullet which goes astray, thus militating against the cliche that "more capacity is automatically better." Yes, the p365 and Glock 43 are superb, and yes the pocket revolver absolutely is not a beginners gun, but for a dude willing to regularly train with one, a J-frame loaded with wadcutters is an ultra convenient pocket monster that will get you out of most any jam. For what it's worth, I'm a retired Army officer but started out enlisted, serving as a Special Forces Weapons Sergeant.
Number 3 isn’t based in any actual evidence. I don’t think 5 is really much of a benefit honestly. 6 is arguable for semis. To the others, some validity!
You can easily operate a semi one handed unless you are carrying on an empty chamber...but if you're carrying on an empty chamber then your firearm is more of a magic talisman for you than a weapon.
I have never seen a revolver stovepipe or fail to cycle from an improper grip and to me it’s easier to operate when waking up from a dead sleep. If it doesn’t go bang for some sort of fluke reason, then squeezing it again will produce results. The only real drawback is capacity and hence the importance to win quickly and reliably helps with quickly. Plus it helps that it packs a punch when time is critical. A J-frame is at least a 5 or 6 times better choice over having nothing.
Perfectly said.
The weakest point here is number 2, which comes pretty close to asserting that you don’t actually need to be proficient with your gun because you’re unlikely to need to ever pull the trigger. If you take this argument to its natural end point, you could say that we should all carry toy guns or airsoft guns because they’ll scare off a bad guy just as well as a real gun. Obviously no one here would agree with that. If you carry a gun, it needs to be a gun that you can shoot very well. Number 9 is a pretty weak point as well. You’re implying that people who carry semiautos don’t aim because they know they have more ammo capacity, while revolver carriers will be careful because they only have 5 bullets. I think the risk of collateral damage actually favors the semi, given that snubnoses are much harder to shoot accurately.
her recoil control was impressive!
Very, I must've missed it but was he shooting +P and her standard? Or were they both shooting standards?
Both the same box of ammo.
@@ASPextra Wow, after he shot I was like "thaaaaats not...that's not right. After she shot I was like....do I even have that much recoil control?" Very impressive.
Not sure if they have technique or just grip pressure, but I've found if you just grip the crap out of the j-frame it'll behave.
@@DWalter.27 About all you can do, can't angle your wrists forward and lock out quite like a Auto. All you can really do is crush the damn thing with your dominant hand.
I carry a snub nose revolver %80 of the time, it's what I can comfortably appendix carry 14 hours a day. I have a range in my backyard so I shoot a lot.. 😎 A snubby takes a ton of training to be proficient, it absolutely isn't a newbie sidearm.. great video!
I have the S&W Model 638 .38 special; the one with the shrouded hammer. I carry it everyday because it's light, simple, and easy to carry.
How are you at shooting it?
@@davidhoffman6980 Great. There's a technique to the double action pull but any competent shooter can figure it out. The single action trigger is the best trigger I have on all of my guns. I just like it because I can commit to carrying all day/everyday and I don't have to hassle with magazines or "plus one" rounds.
The finest pocket revolver ever produced... a perfect weapon.
I have the 638 Centennial, No Hilary Hole. Load it with Critical Defense & Crimson trace grips. Daily Carry
As a Firearms Instructor, I really like the boat paddle analogy for the trigger press.
Thanks John, I'm stealing that for my classes 😉
Ha I thought the same thing.
You cannot steal what has been freely given, Kevin. Glad to help you help your students!
If you are an instructor, please do the shooting world a favor and stop saying/teaching "trigger PRESS." It's not a press. It's a pull. Tacticool guys, who are terrified to be an individual, all say "press" because everybody else does. These are the same guys who all have the same beard, same sunglasses, same jeans, always wear a ball cap, and all use the same lingo/verbage. They are sheep, not shepherds. You press away from yourself--press a button, bench press weight away from you, etc. You pull toward yourself--pull a string, pull a child out of traffic, pull a trigger. You don't "push an oar" you "pull an oar." There is no shame in saying "trigger pull," because it's exactly what is happening. Anyway, be bold and speak/teach accurately! PULL that trigger!
Hating on beards😨@@Defossion1
@@Defossion1 I understand the nuance between the two actions and what they are intending to teach. I get it when it's applied to say 1911s. However, the term "trigger press" should never be applied to a double action revolver. You are most definitely pulling that trigger. Your finger is Miva in a big horizontal arc while you're doing it to. Nothing you can do about it.
As a plainclothes criminal investigator for over 25 years and dealer in firearms for 18, I became a fan of the Smith & Wesson J frame series as an absolutely excellent concealed carry self-defense option. It exhibits the very best, and most important, characteristics of a concealed carry handgun of any type: concealability and extreme reliability, and good wounding capacity with the right ammunition. On-board capacity of five shots exceeds what is necessary for the vast majority of self defense encounters. For all his whimpering about the sights, they are sufficient to make head hits at 25 yards, and accuracy with good ammunition is excellent. Are they a beginner's self defense choice? Maybe. But quality practice is important with any platform.
Over the 10 yrs I've been carrying, I went from a Ruger LC9, to Glock 48, to Sig 365X Macro, and have settled on a S&W 360PD, loaded with +P cartridges for EDC. It's super light, point and shoot within 20 feet, and I never worry about optics crapping out, or mags dropping/jamming. If you can get proficient with these pocket revolvers, you'll get better at pistol shooting in general.
I routinely carry a j frame while doing yard work and other physical tasks. Around the house/yard/farm its light, comfortable, doesn't pinch. But when i venture into civilization, its replaced with a Glock 43x
My 10 year old son and 13 year old daughter each shot a box of 38 special + P ammo out of my “stock” j frame 38 yesterday and they had a blast. They never complained once about recoil.
Pull this guy’s man card now!!!
I stand by what I said.
🤣
It's the normal anti revolver video
Is your j frame airweight, steel or the 357mag j steel frame thats even heavier than the regular steel frame.
@@Gieszkanne airweight
This is why I am glad S&W is teaming up with that other company to “re-do” the J-Frame series. Way better sights, better trigger etc etc
I actually ended up snagging one of the new S&W 442UC's specifically because it addressed my issues with the snubnose; its got actual sights instead of having to resort to painting the front sight and having a gutter for a rear sight, a much smoother trigger than other S&W J-frames I've handled, and grips that are just barely big enough to get all my fingers wrapped around it (or 4.5, since I'm only getting half my pinkie around it) and they don't look like they're designed to make my shooting experience miserable in the first 10 rounds.
@@Verdha603and they're saying the 632 uc is even smoother to shoot with 32 mag ammo also has good ballistics performance
She has great recoil control!
You started your experiment with an extended “this gun sucks” intro. Maybe you should have let them “shoot first and ask questions later.”
And we never saw their hits.
Your boat paddle analogy is spot on. I use that all the time.
Training makes the difference from beginner to competent with any gun.
For someone who is basically competent, the adrenaline dump is less of an issue. The revolver always rests in its safest state.
Are other guns better? Yes. But all require training and practice.
i dont like how he brushed off the risk of a gun jamming or stovepiping as well. I would argue that is a legitmate downside to autoloaders. now they are rare with good ammo and a good gun but I would argue the ability to just keep pulling the trigger and it keeps firing even if its pressed up against somebody is an advantage. especially when it only requires one hand.
Success with the J frame is mastering the grip. If you practice and understand the J frames capabilities and limitations, it works in more situations than you can imagine.
Dang zero fails after 20,000 rounds, that’s a mag tech ad if I ever heard one, props to mag tech for quality ammo 👏
Most failures have nothing to do with ammo if you use quality factory ammo. User-induced failures are your culprit.
I could see 20,000 in a full size 9mm as that wimpy cartridge by design always feeds. If he said it was also 10mm or .40 S&W JHP, i'd laugh for a long time.
Cuss it all you want; that's probably the one revolver design that will never die.
If you know what you are doing and practice it, you can ‘stage’ the trigger and make it like an SA, accurate and controllable. I’m a big fan of the J frame.
I carry 2 J frames with 3 speed loaders and pepper spray!
plus pepper spray a great idea! 👍👍👍❤️
I recently added a j-frame to my carry load out and it’s definitely an expert gun. I love it! I would never recommend it to a beginner. I’ve had training with my 686+ revolver, so I feel more confident with it. Great take on reliability.
Dryfire with a DA/SA firearm can make for amazing trigger control. I really enjoy shooting my DA/SA pistols (a CZ P01 and P07)...but I carry a striker fired P10C. As usual, awesome content, John!
I have a 85 year old uncle who is a retired US Army captain. He has been shooting a J frame chief’s special since he was very young. He has a garage full of trophies from all the shooting championships he won with his J frame. Now, I’m not attempting to debunk your observations because I agree with most of your conclusions. My uncle is an expert, but it just goes to show that a person can get really good with whatever they train with. If you shoot a J frame for 70 years, you will most likely be really good with it. Same goes for any other other gun/trigger.
That lady is all muscle…works out like a beast obviously. Shot that light pistol with the hard recoil like nothing. I have a S&W MP 340 and with full load 357 magnums it is brutal on your hand bones…but devastating for a target. It is really made as a back up. I can see a niche use as firing from within a jacket pocket through the jacket since the hammer is internal…but that’s about it other than as a back up. Sort of means you aren’t using a pocket holster though which isn’t good.
She looks exactly like that Asian youtuber Anna akana
Her recoil control was soooo much better than that other guy!!!!! 😂
Right? It didn't look like the "expert's gun" was giving her any trouble.
Right now I i do Uber for work. I picked the S&W 638 since I figured I'm most likely to encounter a bad guy in my sedan. I don't worry about limp wristing using my non-dominant hand reaching over my body, out of battery, trying to thunb a safety with my left hand while I'm driving etc. I'll purchase a p365 down the road, but I figure at the moment the revolver made the most sense for my niche position. The DA has been a fun challenge, and now my friend's semis feel like switiching from a stick to an automatic. I shoot better than them now, thanks revolver! I'm a new firearm owner and I've been binging your channel for weeks now. Thank you for your life-saving content. May God keep you close!
The place that the J-Frame still really shine is as a backup gun in an ankle holster. Very capable with this platform but not my choice for a primary EDC firearm.
Yeah, and since I have never seen a private citizen use a BUG in any capacity in a gunfight ever...
All valid points. My wife and I had our first permits when there were no viable options, 1911's or revolvers. I carried a 1911 and she carried a model 65. We trained a lot and were very proficient. Times change and are better now.
Yes, the small snubbie is not a great starter pistol. Yes, it does require work to get and stay proficient with them. Dry fire practice with these guns is pretty much mandatory to get good with the long, heavy DA trigger. I'd say it is still a very good tool to have in the tool box and far better than the proverbial sharp stick if you need something to defend yourself. I never feel underarmed carrying my LCR down to the corner store or wherever.
I carry a Taurus 605. I chose it specifically for the extra weight in the front end to curb recoil. When you load it with 38s, it is a dream to shoot. Long trigger pull, but I prefer a hammer on it. When I fire one round from this gun in .357 magnum there is a huge ball of flame and it is LOUD. Tweekers that would mess with me would more than likely start dancing like in the Thriller video and bug out. I also have a K frame 686 plus that I carry and shoots like a dream. Hate all you want, Its my life and mine to defend. Did just fine in 3 combat tours
Improved trigger on a J frame means a $15-$20 spring kit and a small screwdriver. Fast follow-up shots can be superior to a semiauto: no reciprocating slide means improved recoil recovery. And, for the record, those stocks are known as 'boot grips' and are the very smallest style available for the J Frame besides the OG Model 36 slim walnut stocks. The use of more ergonomic 'combat grips' permit the use of the pinky finger, and the full use of the support hand. An in-the-pants holster is extremely effective, especially seated in a car, and skilled use of speed loaders provides a quick reload. The argument of a problematic reholster is weak, in that reholstering after firing is typically not done in a hurry; there's no rush.
I would never ever recommend anyone home gunsmith a defensive firearm. Ever.
@@ASPextra OK. Revolver spring swaps are a wear item/consumable and amount to about as much "home gunsmithing" as changing out a recoil spring in a semiauto pistol. But I suppose you could pay a "gunsmith" do that, too? Again, a S&W trigger rebound spring swap is an inexpensive and easy drop-in for anyone with basic tools, as is a change of stocks on a S&W revolver, typically a single screw. And none of my other valid points regarding Johns complaints were addressed, lol.
I agree it’s not a beginner gun. But, it’s not that difficult. My girlfriend has no problem with hers in 38 special. She normally carries shield, but the little revolver is much easier for her to carry in many situations. Also, the new 32 mag from smith has 6 rounds and is much easier to shoot. Crimson laser grips work very nice with these little revolvers and eliminates many difficulties. You can also shoot from inside a jacket or coat. You can also shoot in direct contact with the attacker. She also likes that she can easily unload it without possible deformation of the bullets from repeated cycling in an auto loader. Meaning, she doesn’t to rotate cartridges in her magazines. There are always compromises.
The new .32 rounds in defensive application that we saw at SHOT Show are very promising!
Lasers are gimmicky, who's blasting through their jacket when every bullet has a lawyer attached, why is she unloading her gun constantly.
My wife and I are exclusively j-frame carriers, but a lot of the benefits people tout online are overblown
@@DWalter.27 lasers are game changers with j-frames. We do not allow rounds in the chamber in our house. We have alarm systems and dogs to afford us that opportunity. You do you. I don’t care what you do or what you think.
My grandfather was a Bill Jordan fan, when we were kids living in the River Quay he'd make wax bullets for his snubby so us boys could target practice in the alley behind his house, to this day outta all the autoloaders I own I often more than not carry a Smith and Wesson J frame.
I inherited a 642 from my dad and as much as I love it, I can't argue with the points made in the video. Sight radius, very short. Capacity, nowhere near what one could carry. Trigger pull, down right insanely heavy and long. I can't fix the sight radius or capacity but I have polished the trigger and other internals and I've considered putting the Mcarbo springs in it. Polishing did a great job of making it a smother pull and a little easier to handle. I've carried this as my primary EDC and I feel good about it. I figure I have 2-3 shots to neutralize the threat and a couple left to get to safety before I have a problem to solve. With a semi-auto, I can double or triple that before I have that same problem to solve. Great video, as always, and I appreciate all that you do.
1) A good spring kit for the J-Frame goes a long way.
2) Understand that the J-Frame is a "get off me" gun. "Sniping" with a J-Frame is being able to actually hit the A-Zone at 25+yd
3) If you need to use your J-Frame, do so knowing it's your tool to give you the opportunity to run away after dumping 5 close quarters rounds.
I trained many years with a double action .357 duty revolver, so I'm pretty comfortable with these, and don't feel poorly armed when I have one. However, it can't be denied that it has many drawbacks that counteract whatever advantages it may have. Though I have carried it in a pocket holster, I don't think it's a good way to carry. It's slow and awkward to draw, and really doesn't conceal that well in my clothes. A standard belt holster is best. For newbies, there are way better choices.
My wife and I both carry j-frames, and your analysis is very accurate! I do want to say that for some people (like my wofe and I) a DA trigger just clicks better in their brain for them vs a striker, and for those people it's a lower barrier of entry.
Additionally, that gun is half the loaded weight of the P635XL. Weight can be a big deal for some people, like me before God healed my back, which is why I went from a P365XL to a 340PD (with 38 wadcutters)
They also carry differently than a semi; we're small people and appendix carry ours more effectively than we can a semi auto.
The stocks make a massive difference in felt recoil. I have small hands and I actually get all of the strength of my pinky, even with the short grips you have there. But just having them fit your hands well cuts down on the pain. With my favorite grips (Hogue bantam, which are similar to the stock grip) I will do 357 in my 340PD for fun, it's a lot but it's doable.
And finally, having a j-frame in 22lr is what transitioned my wife to one in 38. 38 was too much recoil to learn with, but once she learned with 22 she graduated to 38 and wanted to ditch her S&W Shield.
The Tyler T-grip adapter transforms the shooting experience without adversely impacting the footprint of the gun.
I vastly prefer the Colt Detective Special over a J-frame.
Lightweight frame materials like aluminum or scandium are trendy and cool in the gun store, not so much on the range.
Neither the small Colt nor the S&W are suitable for a house gun. If you are committed to a revolver for a house gun, a K- or L-Frame S&W or similar-sized Colt or Ruger with 4-inch barrel and steel or stainless steel construction is the way to go.
Her control of recoil is outstanding. Watch her shoulders….the recoil energy flows through her arms and pushes her shoulders back….
I carry this same firearm and with practice it can be managed well. For me….it’s a perfect conceal carry firearm.
As other owners of these j frames say…..simple and reliable. Actually…more than reliable…. They are foolproof as the only way it can fail is bad ammo…
If you use factory loads for CC…you are always good to go.
I agree that, in general, that very lightweight revolvers are not beginner friendly.
They can, however, be used to improve your trigger pull.
Try shooting a full set of rounds through the gun. Then, put in some snap caps and dry fire a full set or two. Then, have someone else load it for you with a mix of snap caps and live rounds. You will quickly see when you are jerking the trigger.
Try running a few sets until you can get through it without jerking in anticipation.
Usually we recommend to focus more on isolating the trigger finger and not gripping with the whole hand than whether you're "jerking" or not. :)
@@ASPextra Exactly, "jerking" the trigger is not a good thing. But many of us flinch or jerk the trigger in anticipation of the gun going off. This is a good way of practicing a smooth trigger press, and it helps you become aware of any flinch you may have in anticipation of the shot breaking. And unlike a semi auto, you don't have to do a failure to fire drill to clear the snap cap, you can just pull the trigger again.
Way back in the day, Sheriff Charles "Skeeter" Skelton tested a J-frame against a Walther PPK and found that .38Spl LRN bullets and
380ACP FMJ bullets penetrated to virtually the same depth in pine boards, so he chose the PPK as a thinner, flatter backup gun that held 2 more rounds that performed equally as well, and was easier for him to shoot (especially in single-action).
I started carrying a S&W 640 in my left front pocket in 1995, then I switched to carrying a 642 in 1998, went back to a different 640 in 2006, then upgraded to a 6-shot Colt Cobra in 2019. I shot my 640 many times in multiple classes with Massad Ayoob and Grant Cunningham, and I learned that my 135gr +P Gold Dot carry ammunition would drop a man-sized mammal just as well as any 9mm or .45ACP load if the shot was placed correctly.
Then, I picked up my Ruger LCP Max, and I found that it actually cleared my left front pocket just as well as any of my snubby revolvers, it held even more ammo onboard than any of my pocket snubbies + a separate speedloader, and it ran reliably through a few hundred rounds of FMJ plus a couple of boxes of Hornady Critical Defense .380ACP, which performed basically the same as the .38Spl GDHP load that I already carried and trusted. Carried in a Safariland pocket holster, it weighs, prints and bulges less than my 642, even fully loaded with 2.6× as much ammo. I get hits at 3-5 yards just as fast as any of my snubbies from the front pocket, it's less-expensive and less-unpleasant to shoot than any lightweight J-frame, and I can actually reholster it one-handed with the Safariland pocket holster.
I love traditional guns as much as anyone else, but I carry guns that do the same job better for me, and not just because of preexisting biases...
Can you you fire the lcp from inside a jacket pocket?
Sure, for one shot...
Shooting from inside a pocket is a great way to artificially restrict yourself to shooting at gut level or lower, unless you've unbuttoned or unzipped your jacket...and if you have your jacket open all the way, why not draw from your front trouser pocket?
I live in Southern AZ, and I only need to wear a fully-closed heavy jacket for a total of maybe 30 days out of the year, so I'd rather just carry in my front trouser pocket year-round and train accordingly.
Drawing completely out of the pocket and bringing the gun up to line-of-sight is a much more consistent way to get accurate hits in vital areas than hip-shooting blind from inside the pocket - especially when using lesser-performance loadings like .380ACP or .38Spl when fired out of short-barreled pocket guns. If you need to proactively draw a gun in the face of a threat, it's much more intimidating for the assailant to actually see the gun aimed at him, instead of your fist inside a pocket...which, TBH, seems to be more stereotypically associated with stick-em-up robbers than law-abiding armed citizens...
Learn to point shoot, as someone who has used a gun for self defense I can tell you that you may not have the time or the distance to use sights, you might want something that doesn't go out of battery easily also.
I actually took a class in Fairbairn-style point shooting, sponsored by Suarez International and taught by Matthew Temkin, in October 2007.
I shot better than the instructor going into the class, and Gabe Suarez and every one of the students agreed that those two days had been a complete waste of time, money and perfectly good ammunition.
@@jasonashley4579Agree! As someone who’s been in a gunfight I only used the sights once, and that was in a well lit motel hallway to drop a hostage taker before he killed his hostage. The other two times it was either too dark (no night sights in the ‘70s) or things went down too fast to line up a sight picture.
Agreed. All solid points. To each their own
Yo, little Destiny killed it controlling that muzzle flip.
I carry a S&W 642 during the summer in my pants pocket in a pocket holster. It is a hard to shoot gun. I carry Winchester Defender 130 grain +p hollow points. I have a set of Crimson Trace extended length laser grips. It is a handful but if you use a proper two handed grip it doesn’t hurt and is manageable. I will be getting to set up to use moon clips soon. I also have a 640 which I may start using. The 642 is not for someone that doesn’t know to shot well. The trigger pull is not an issue with training. If I feel I need to be prepared, I put my hand in my pocket on the grip. I completely agree that this is not a beginner’s gun but it has its place in the right hands.
When you go range shooting maybe not 100 rounds through a snubnose 38 but for a get off me gun, 1 to 6 shots defending your life, youre fine. Hes really looking at this all wrong.
Growing up I owned and shot many co2 double action only bb/pellet guns. The triggers are just as heavy sometimes heavier than real revolvers. The years of shooting co2 guns made me supper accurate with real snub nose/full size revolvers. Also i never had an issue with the old school 158gr lrn or the wadcutters
Shoot both auto and revolver like both carry both. Much discusiiona about small problems. Get plenty of rounds down range and decide for yourself what you want to use and when. Good health to all.
I thank you for this video, I am one who likes to through my J frame in my front pocket. Being a 325 lb. man who always likes my shirt tucked in, I need tips on best way to conceal carry . Please think about doing a video on this issue with several different guns.
We had about 15 people at our annual indoor low light fun shoot, and I remember at least 10 people using a P365 in some configuration (including myself). I know people say the G43x/G48 are popular, but we only had 1. The 4 that I remember, which weren't P365's, were: P226, P320, G19, and G43X (which broke the slide stop, snapped near the hinge point).
For micro 9s, the 365 family is the current standard all else is measured by. Hands down.
For awhile, i carried a model 640 .357 and a Shield Plus 9mm. It was a nice combo. The power of .357 rounds, or the capacity (15+1) of the Shield, depending upon the circumstances.
Too much weight
@@jason200912 It wasn't that bad.
I’ve been carrying a light J Frame since my ‘68 rookie year & in ‘74 used a Colt DS (about the same size as a J frame) to win a gunfight w/three armed robbery suspects, reloading once under fire. When I can’t adequately conceal a J Frame I’ll go to my LCP, but that’s usually when wearing thin dress slacks. Also, your support hand thumb was in front of the cylinder and that could cause an injury. Finally, you’re absolutely right about the J Frame being no fun to shoot, but like you I’ve never had a failure of any kind w/a J Frame.
Jim Cirilo knew.
??????
I grew up with the support hand thumb gripping downward crushing the primary hands thumb underneath it. It’s a grip that I found translates well for semi autos and revolvers. If you use that semiauto grip with the death ray thumbs both pointing forward, personally I don’t see any benefit plus it doesn’t translate back to revolvers. I’d rather have one grip for all guns rather than a specific grip for one type of gun and another one for a different gun.
@@Aspen7780Makes perfect sense to me.
Having taken Craig Douglas's ECQC class I'd say one area where a J-frame style revolver is going to shine is in a hands on grappling fight. In close physical contact with another person it is relatively easy to get an auto loader knocked out of battery so it doesn't go bang when you want it to. That doesn't happen with a revolver. It is also easier for the slide to snag when the action cycles leaving you with a one shot pistol. I think it is less likely for a revolver to get fouled like that.
It is easier to grab a revolver and jam the cylinder, though, so it's pros and cons. Also, I think that the private citizen is so seldom in the kinds of encounters that are grappling gunfights that it's a solution searching for a problem. I can think of literally one example on the channel.
Now, if you're working undercover narcotics as a cop, that's a skill that will come into play a lot more for sure!
@@ASPextra I wouldn't argue with you that a close quarters tussle isn't a bit niche when it comes to general civilian defense. Might be a fun test to compare simunition pistols versus revolvers in a close grappling scenario (except I doubt you can find a simunition only revolver to do it safely). Fundamentally I don't disagree at all that the pistol is the far better choice for civilian defenders.
@@ASPextraLost a sub for discounting the very real possibility of ending up in a fight that goes to the ground. Dumb take.
@@CollectedWorxRight?! The guy preaches the importance of BJJ and then says this lol
You can also choose a lighter load for a relovler in regards to 38 special that would help with recoil. The definately aren't for everyone.
She's printing a lot!
Just using a t-shirt for the range amigo. Focus on the lesson.
A reason as a small female I prefer not to carry a 9mm glock or similar...I go anywhere from 118-145 lbs over the years and I can't conceal them. Guys got pocket privilege but also bigger body frame and belly privilege & can hide a gun so much easier. I'm too vain to gain just to carry! Lol
@@ASPextra But wouldn't she wear a t-shirt during hotter times of the year anyway?
@@ASPextra Her printing that much really contradicts your claim that her gun is just as easy to concealed carry as a little J-frame snubby.
As a regular concealed carrier, I agree there are much better options. In my use (LEO), I carried a J-frame as a backup gun on the inside of my strong side ankle in the event I was ever in a struggle over my duty weapon. This would allow me to draw with my weak hand and make contact shots since slide out of battery is a non-issue with a revolver. (The only holster I trusted was the Gould and Goodrich Bootlock, due to it being both velcroed and laced into place).
I realize this is a niche use, but valid in this application.
John the 640 makes the J frame easy to shoot. Add a 442/642 pocket with the same loads and reloads and you are good to go.
The place for the J-Frame is contact fighting. My fear with SEMI's is an attacker closing distance snd actually making physical contact with at which rime i cannot make a "Punch Shot".
I just don't see that happening in real life defensive gunfights almost ever. I can think of a single instance on the channel out of thousands.
I love J-frames and have several. That being said I agree with you a 100% that it is NOT a beginners gun, even in the steel frame Model 40 and 49 versions that I have the recoil is substantial enough to scare away a new shooter. People that recommend these to new shooters are being irresponsible and making someone that was open to the idea of owning a firearm a potential future ANTI. Promote our hobby and the acceptance of CCW by making responsible recommendations to those that need guidance, even if it means a 22lr. Its better than a sharp stick.
Great Video!!!
Did I mention I love J-frames!!
I own 3 great revolvers and love them. They're just hard for noobs!
Totally agreed. I have advanced training and experience, and my little. 38 is just my in the house gun when I don't want to carry a G19.
Minor correction. 642 is not hammerless, the hammer is internal. Internal hammers on a revolver are to limit snagging and to prevent foriegn material from creating a blockage.
Fair enough, “no exposed hammer.” Technically correct is best correct and all. ;)
@@ASPextraQuestion for you. It is mentioned in the video about modifying the trigger to lighten up the pull. I have heard that such modifications should not be used on a defense firearm as that can be used against a person in a use of force case. In your experience have you seen this to be true at all or is this being overly exagerated?
I think the only time that actually comes into play is in a negligent discharge. Cosmetic mods can be very costly to keep out of court so anything with a political message or anything I would avoid. But if it can be explained that it makes the gun easier to use accurately and therefore more safely, shouldn't be a big problem. This is what good attorneys argue and why they hire good expert witnesses.
S&W 642/ 442 is an outstanding revolver. It's an excellent choice for concealed carry. One should not adhere to the notion that it is difficult to become proficient with. In a word: practice! Whether live fire at the range or at home dry firing with snap caps. Once the trigger pull is mastered, one becomes much more proficient. I'd advise that one should regularly put fifteen rounds through it after their session at range with whatever other firearm they favor. For defensive carry, I would recommend standard pressure hollow points such as Hornady critical defense or Federal hydra shok in 110 grain.
I have several J Frame revolvers but the only revolver that I will pocket carry is my Kimber K6xs. It cures most of the issues you detailed on this video.
This dude makes a lot of valid points about J-frames. It's good to have plenty of options, and people can look at the same issues and still make different choices. I think most of the issues he raised can be overcome with practice and training which is something he would recommend for all gun owners anyway.
All that being said I still lean towards a J-frame.
So J frame in 38/357 or LCP in .380? If I want something in the ~12-17oz range (loaded) I will carry one of these. Both week side. Usually it is the M&p340 357 because I have more confidence in the caliber and I shoot adiquately at close range fastish. If I want more of something then it is (my wife's) P365x with 17rounders in a sling bag which is slow to draw, but all the other advantages.
I bought an LCP and 340 PD at basically the same time. Shot both, carried both, sold the LCP. I could just shoot the j-frame better. Since then I got a 22lr j-frame for practice and now I shoot them immensely better!
I have thought of getting the all steel J to practice with 38s. do the trigger job, same grips etc.@@DWalter.27
Interesting video. I have a Taurus 905 in 9mm. It is a steel alloy and weighs in at 21 ounces. I replaced the grip with a laser grip that allows me to get a full grip and negate the need to use the iron sights. This gun is heavier and provides a better grip and sighting than the one in your video. I find it pleasant to shoot. I use moon clips that make it quick to reload. The only disadvantage is the long heavy trigger pull which can be mastered with practice. You can also use the appendix carry with the holster and gun in your video.
Some tips to carrying a centennial 38.. paint the front sight with bright orange paint... Get yourself either full size hogue monogrips.. or packmeyer diamond pro full grips that cover the back strap.. and get all your fingers on the grip.. even with these two grips pocket carrying is no trouble at all.. another option is the rubber crimson Trace laser grips... This will absorb recoil and give you a full grip.. I have an 11 oz titanium cylinder centennial and I have no problem hitting quick shots out to 50 ft on Target of course I've practiced some which is the main thing you need to do with these guns
Last Sunday I shot a similar gun. 28 special with an 8 pound trigger. It almost broke my hand. The guy at the range said he has a .357 that shoots softer!
How much does a weird caliber like that cost to shoot
J-Frame (in my case 638 and 642 are my experience) is an awesome gun. Definitely agree that it is best suited for experienced shooters, and someone who is strong enough to pull that heavy trigger. This is not a fun gun to shoot, but it is a great pistol for defense. The rounded contour/shape of the gun makes it very comfortable to carry. Things that I've learned... checkered grips help me hang on to it... use a high grip ... I push my finger all the way through the guard and pull the trigger with the second segment of my finger, NOT with the pad of my finger.... dry fire a thousand times to get muscle memory and to learn the long trigger...
I carried a lightweight 38 in my pocket for 9 years. I dealt with feeling the results of my practice in my hand for 3 days after as well as the cost of ammunition. Last year I had to stop when I felt a strange twinge in my shooting hand. One can carry and shoot these guns fairly well, but you'll pay for that regular practice in more than just your wallet.
Oh man that sucks. Sorry to hear that.
@@ASPextra Don't be. It was that, plus a scary incident last June that finally got me to put a serious effort into appendix carry and quit pocket carry. BTW, your posts regarding appendix carry were a big help in me making the transition.
Amazing content! Changed my mind about wanting one.. shot a revolver at an indoor range but didn't pay much attention to these things! Thanks to the volunteers too! :)
You still might want to look at a Ruger LCR. The 327 Federal Magnum version can be loaded with ammo that is both very shootable and meets the ballistics needs for stopping power. And the thing is, if your ability to handle recoil improves, you can load more powerful rounds if you wish. Lucky Gunner has excellent videos on the LCR.
Nice I'll check it out thanks mate!@@joeterp5615
I have been carrying a S&W J -frame 38spl since 1980 first a mod 36, then a 60,then a 649 & now a 342pd airlite in a shoulder,pancake.,iwb,ankle & pocket holster and try not to leave home without it
Well, here’s the thing though John, you made the case at the end for why a little revolver is the right gun for so many people: it can be neglected in a drawer for years and still do its job for a person who has never trained and will never train. It’s sad, but the reality is that a whole lot of people fall into that category. And such people can still benefit from at least that level of self defense capabilities.
You're not wrong. That's a use case.
It’s not a beginner gun but I do fine with a snubby. An HK da/sa has some heavy trigger too!
Own this gun. Agree wholeheartedly with review and no longer carry this pistol as my protector.
I practice BJJ, I use a snub for potential contact shots while grappling. Something that would jam semi auto's in the same situation
Okay, I just think you’re planning on something that is really a non-event. Because actually getting to a gun during grappling is exceedingly rare, and 1/8” is all you need to make the semi work just fine. And revolvers can have problems in tight quarters with cylinder rotation too. Just some thoughts for you, carry what you want.
@@ASPextra I disagree, just look at all the Craig Douglas training videos while grappling with a gun. The guns go out of battery all the time. Hence, why many students made the switch.
I went with a j frame for the same exact reason. I never been in a gun fight in my life, but definitely wrestled with some punks
Well, I actually analyze real defensive encounters and what we see happen in real life for some reason doesn’t seem to match what Craig shows in Force on Force evolutions. Seen plenty of close contact shots, and out of battery failures are unicorn events in the real world. Not sure what to tell you about that, but remember that FoF invites some artificialities that we should be aware of.
@@ASPextra yes but you also told me in the past that gun jams are rare. Yet I see countless videos on your channel where they did
To start with, I completely agree with you that it's more of an expert's gun.
You already name-dropped DB, Haggard, and Werner, so you've definitely heard their takes on the use-cases. And I would point out that even Bolke and Haggard (don't know about Werner) prefer a modern auto in the appendix and reserve a snubby for the pocket most of the time (DB has a Langdon PX4 or Boresight P365XL, Haggard had a Glock 48 with an SCD when I trained with him).
One of the points people also made was that, in that pocket sized category, a revolver tended to be more reliable than a similarly sized auto, which had more to do with ergonomics and things like grip in sub-optimal conditions, or in a wrestling situation. However that is probably less true today with more commonly available, high quality, very small guns like the P365 (the same as the "but what will you actually carry?" argument)
For what it's worth, the negatives of a snub like that *can* be mitigated somewhat using things like a wraparound rubber grip like a Ruger LCR, using wadcutters, or stepping down the caliber to something like .32 H&R or .32 Long.
The sights, on the other hand, require you to buy just the right gun, and there aren't that many options.
Even then, as you said, it doesn't deal with the very limited capacity, trigger which can be more difficult to learn, all that stuff.
Yep! I have a LCR that I shoot with S&W Long wadcutters just like you said. It’s a great option. I’m glad I researched using multiple websites and UA-cam channels before buying my guns, and didn’t only listen to reflexively anti-revolver viewpoints. Now I own several SAs and revolvers, and they all have their place.
i just got back from the chiropractor and my back is killing me. I usually wear a safariland shoulder houlster with a shield 2.0 around the house but when i got home i just couldnt take that shit anymore and thats my only way to carry without back pain usually. So now the rest of the night im rocking the j frame in a pocket holster and a reload (not really) in the way of a fixed blade push dagger on my belt lol. The jframe is my best friend that is always there for me when no one else is even if they are the least competent friend in the collection.
First rule of gunfighting: have a gun. :) Sometimes a sub-optimal choice is, given other considerations, the optimal choice!
"You're never alone with a Smith & Wesson." - Keith Richards
Wow really shows the importance of proper technique, she really controlled the recoil well
Good points. I actually thought the girl was carrying a demonstration gun too, to show something that is too big, since it was basically sticking out of her mid section.
Not a focus of this video, but she's just wearing a range t-shirt and not what she would go into town with.
@@ASPextra makes sense. I was not so much judging, but rather stating my expectations were wrong.
She has way more experience than me, so I'm definitely not trying to judge. :)
In all fairness, there's variety even in j frames. A steel frame with an exposed hammer will be a better starting point for some. Maybe end point. I love my steel frame & it's still not too heavy in carry terms.
When you are only used to a semiauto with a shorter trigger press... the revolver seems difficult. Revolvers are underrated in today's world but when one is familiar with them... they should not be overlooked for defensive carry.
As a j frame 357 carrier, I too believe that the J frame is not for beginners. However, I also found this video to be disingenuous. They were holding too low increasing muzzle flip and felt recoil. The grip in a revolver is different than a pistol, especially on a hammerless. No pointers seemed to be given. Also, the inherent advantage of not being able to be pushed out of battery was not given, as was fired from a pocket. These points to some, might outweigh the ammunition capacity to others. And weight. My firearm loaded is about 15-16 oz. The p365xl with 17 rounds is closer to double that. This was glossed over grossly. I am absolutely not saying that the revolver is superior or even equal to 17 rounds of modern 9. I am saying that there are different tools for different jobs. I too have a p365x. I also have a lcp in a wallet holster. They each have their use.
You know, it’s almost as if I purposefully didn’t give them instruction to show the fallacy in the “it’s a great gun for untrained people” a test run without saying so.
It would be an interesting follow-up video to see them after 50 or 100 rounds. I get the "untrained" aspect. And again, I totally agree that and Airweight J frame is not a beginner gun. It would also be interesting to take a person who has never fired a shot and have them load and fire a steel 4" revolver and a high cap 9mm to see which they become more comfortable as the "person who buys a gun and puts it up in the closet".@@ASPextra
She had part of the reason for the J-frame’s existence right there on her abdomen the whole time. Many users of dot-sighted appendix carried guns print way more than they realize. The young man who shot first had a terrible “revolver grip”, choke up on that bad boy. The J-frame is not perfect by any means, and I routinely carry a G-19 or G-26 more than the J, but it is more useful than this video would lead someone to believe.
I agree revolvers aren’t for beginners and in a world full of small footprint high capacity semi automatic handguns there are certainly better choices for concealed carry. With that said I do think the revolver still may have a place in this day and age. I love the revolver for carry in gym clothes. It’s light and small so I can fit it in a pocket or in my waistband (in a holster of course) and cinch the draw strings to hold it in place. With my other pistols the gun is either too big for pocket carry or too heavy for the waistband of gym shorts. Also it’s convenient for running to the mailbox, grabbing the trash cans at the end of the driveway, or as James reeves says put it in your pocket while picking up a six pack at the gas station. You can of course use another pocket pistol such as an LCP and it’s probably ok choice. But as lucky gunner has shown pocket pistols still tend to be finicky and my experience has been the same. I choose the j frame over other pocket pistols because I shoot it better, and it’s more reliable. A pocket pistols is a compromise but it’s better than having no gun at all. I say if you’re gonna carry a pocket pistol make sure you shoot it accurately and that it’s reliable enough. Also if you need info on pocket pistols check out lucky gunner’s UA-cam channel! Chris has some good pints and things to consider when choosing to carry a pocket pistol.
I own that gun, and yes it is hard to shoot. I took mine and got rid of the crimson trace stocks and added some extended stocks and a wilson combat spring kit to lighten the trigger pull. Definitely better than straight out of the box, but still not an easy gun to shoot. I'd say it’s too light and hammers your hands when shooting it because the gun doesn't absorb any of the recoil. I love wheel guns, just not this one.
For a while I thought a j frame was about all I could conceal. Not the case any more. Modern holster equipment allows us to conceal bigger pistols. If you absolutely need a small pistol the G43, p365, or similar sized pistols give just as much capacity, better trigger, better ergos, and are just as easy or easier to conceal.
Totally agree.
I know, completely agree. Once I realized that it was like the was amazing. Once you realize everything it takes to properly support it and all the nuance to it, It just clicks, and you understand how everyone else has been doing it.
That rear sight area can still be a problem for some folks (myself included).
Additionally, it's extremely hard to find a gun lighter than a non-steel j-frame. And when you do they're all small 380's with many of the same downsides of a j-frame, plus a worse caliber and questionable reliability
I agree, definitely not a beginner gun. I do carry my LCR around the house when I wear sweat pants or sports shorts. It's very light and comfortable to carry for long periods. Generally, when I leave the house, I will carry my shield or something with 10+1.
I tried putting a longer solid grip on the LCR in order to get a full grip. After 250 rounds thru it on one trip to the range, it left my hand bruised for a week. I went back to the softer short grip it came with.
Nobody that has shot my LCR has wanted to shoot more than 10 rounds.
I put thousands of rounds through it before I felt comfortable carrying it.
I think a LCR in .22 with something like the Federal Punch or Uppercut round isn't anything to sneeze at for an underwear gun!
Uppercut is marketing BS, it doesn't penetrate enough. Punch is done right though
@@ASPextrathat’s exactly what I carry when taking the dogs out back to potty in the middle of the night. We get snakes and other critters at night though so I’m mostly worried about that.
Every one should have a revolver, 2nd or 3rd gun, a 22, 32 or 38 k frame ish size, great for trigger training.
Snubnose revolvers became popular at a time when small semiauto pistols were notoriously unreliable and hollowpoint 9mm/380 ammo performed poorly in short barrels. They’re almost obsolete now that small semiautos have surpassed them in most respects. You’re right that carrying a P365 or Shield is not much more inconvenient than carrying a snubby, but it’s much easier to shoot with higher capacity, better recoil, and better ballistics.
When john steadied up for that first shot, I thought "You know, having all that hair really makes him look slimmer." :)
Because, you know, posts about his hair and appearance rather than the content make everyone so happy. :D
I think it's the losing 60 pounds that makes me look slimmer. :)
She handled that no problem....
First rule of gunfight is to bring a gun. I have been carrying a SW 442 j frame in Albuquerque for 6 years and I love it for being very light and it is utterly reliable and simple. Of course I have been shooting revolvers since the 70's so I get how they can be tricky but I just know what works for me. No safety no issues with controls in an adrenaline dump while I am all hyped up. Blade Tech makes a IWB for J frame that is super comfortable and I carry all day every day at work and at home. I do think the triggers suck and I think some folks are working on new designs with better triggers and stocks. Love your channel!
A J frame in ABQ?!?! You’re a brave man!! 😂😂😂 thanks for the comment and rock on amigo.
An all steel 357( so you have the versatility of ammunition selection) with a 4 inch barrel is absolutely a great “only” gun for a person that just wants to own a gun and never train, use or maintain it. Nothing in a defensive caliber is easier to start with than a 36+ oz with 38 or 38+p. Airweight or Scandium, nope.
6:40 James, grab up higher on the grip frame backstrap to get upward pinkey wrap on the bottom of the stocks and lower the bore axis.
I purposefully didn’t give instruction because most new shooters won’t get much and that’s how they will shoot it.
@@ASPextra I get it. A simple adjustment would overcome Jmes' valid objection and enhance his experience to appreciate and understand the features and benefits of the platform which you verbally explained clearly, compliments.
Hey Mr. John! I do Uber for work right now. I think a revolver for self defense in my sedan seems like the most appropriate weapon in case of limp risking with my left hand, a passenger possibly grabbing my firearm, someone wrestling me for the weapon etc. Do you think I'm off the mark? Thank you for your hard work!
I mean rule #1 of winning a gunfight is have a gun. :) so if a revolver meets that then great. But also a revolver in an entangled fight can be hard to operate and easy to foul.
@@ASPextra Thank you for getting back to me! God bless you and your families.
Regular fan, FI and RSO here. Yes, the J Frame is an expert's gun; it should not be sold to beginners for general self defense. And good on you for emphasizing "IN A (POCKET) HOLSTER". Amazing how many longtime shooters throw one into the pants or jacket pocket or under the front seat without one. As for those who throw STRIKER-FIRED semiautos into their pockets or under the front seat without a holster...😳
I have recently switched from a pistol that's magazine fed to a .38 special because having a 64 round clip does me no good if it jams, and although my lcp 380 had only left me calling "time out while I fix my malfunction” 3 times the revolver has never had one.
Using the LCP to measure reliability of a semi-auto pistol is a really, really poor idea.
@@ASPextraThe revolver is still more reliable than any magazine fed pistol.
That just simply not a true statement. You’re basing that claim off of your experience with a lower level pistol. You can certainly carry what you prefer but to make such statements show a lack of understanding and experience
I never said you should carry a revolver , I said I switched and I also never said that the lcp was the only sidearm I have I also have a 1911 and a PT 709 . I coach my grand kids baseball / soccer so the more concealed is better for me. Dude I hope your weapon never malfunctions. Over the years I have watched about every one of your videos and can’t count the number of episodes that I have seen some mag fed jam or misfire and have chosen to alter my daily carry to suit my personal preference...and my statement about the revolver being more "reliable" is based on every study I have ever read from reputable sources and how mechanically each weapon was designed and functions.
Reading studies from the 89’s might have you out of date but like I said, carry what you want. It’s difficult to see our own biases sometimes but today you’ve seen countless issues with pistols on the channel is simply not true and maybe shows a little of your bias.
Before watching the entire video my opinion would be that it would make a good backup gun for ankle carry, but of course you would also have a polymer frame striker fired pistol with an optic as primary. (No gun Amish)
Okay a few other advantages.. you can jam the muzzle up against torso and yank the trigger.. without it going out of battery.. no worried about rear slide clearance.. or ejector Port clearance... Limp resting does not affect the gun.. remember many self-defense situations are with a up close and personal struggle...
We just don't see those things come into play in private citizen gunfights almost ever.
FYI..the P365 recoils just like the small revolver and if you would of given these two newbies to revolvers more than one time shooting they would of become more familiar with the revolver your test might be a little different.
But you are correct when saying jams with autos have become less and less and the round count is a plus.
I was a beginner back in 1982 when I first shot my S&W 19, it just takes practice as with autos too.
Destiny carries a 365 and I’d disagree with you on your assertion.
And that’s fine!
counter point - around 12:14 when you're talking about having to carry the j-frame in a holster, her sig P365 is printing pretty bad lol.
My opinion on the matter. I don't think the DA trigger is as big of an issue as many make it out to be, even for new shooters. You can become accustomed to it relatively quickly with dry fire practice for free. Recoil is highly dependent on the individual, but I think if it's likely to be an issue, stepping down to a caliber like .32 ACP is a very good alternative. Although regardless, I wouldn't recommend having a gun like this as an only gun, I'd highly recommend getting a full size or target type .22 to practice the fundamentals with live.
The sights I think are almost a none issue. For 10 yards and in, I actually prefer them because the big blocky sights prevent me from over aiming and IMO are quicker to acquire. At longer ranges they're certainly a problem, but for such a tiny CCW I think that's an acceptable trade off.
My last thought, is I greatly prefer autoloaders for pocket sized guns. They're much slimer and easier to conceal, than even the j-frame and I think the extra capacity is a great benefit when you're dealing with so little capacity. I personally carry an M&P bodyguard a lot which is a true DAO and the sights are very much similar to revolver trench sights, but it's a good deal smaller and carries 6+1 rounds.
Edit: Although I agree 100% on pocket carry. I carry my bodyguard IWB most of the time. I only pocket carry it in a jacket pocket, but if I'm wearing a jacket, I'm usually IWB carrying a larger gun.
She isn’t working to actually conceal on the range dude.
29 year Federal LEO retired, former Army MP Captain, NRA Instructor, and YES, alloy J frames are awful to shoot. Never give a new or inexperienced shooter an alloy J frame. Steel framed J’s, like the 640, are passable. K frames even better.