Hold More Mature Bucks - Indiana Consulting Case Study | Bowhunting Whitetails w/ Bill Winke
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- We just got home from the ATA Show and as a part of that trip we stopped in southern Indiana to meet with Jordan Hawkins on his farm. The goal was to help him attract and hold more mature bucks on his farm. It always comes down to the basics (food, cover, security), but how you apply those basics is different on every property. It took two days, but I think we finally figured out why the pieces weren't adding up and then we solved the challenge.
You talk about softening the edge of the food plot and timber. Would you do it with soft woods spruce, white pine, cedar for a hardwood timber edge, or would you go with more browse specific bush type additions, American plumb, elderberry and things like that? And why for either.
Really, softening the edge to me is simply creating a transition area from the "hard edge" (the bigger blocks of timber) and the feeding areas. Within a few years, this "soft" area becomes the place where deer linger and mill around before going into the open fields. Eventually, the soft fringe becomes the new hard edge, but that may not be for 30 to 40 years. I do think that using plum, redosier, elderberry, etc. would ideally be better than oak in this application, but in my experience the deer will hammer that stuff into the ground unless you can protect it. If you have to fence it for ten years then you haven't really created anything. I think if your deer density is moderate to low, you can mix those shrub type preferred browse plants into the oak and you will be OK. That is my plan on my new farm. I just ordered 250 plum, 250 chokecherry and 250 redosier. I will also plant about that many chestnuts. I am going to plant the chestnuts around the edges where I can keep tabs on them, but the others I plan to scatter within the growing oak trees. I will have to tube the chestnut for sure, but I hope not to have to tube the others. If I do, it will get really expensive really fast. Good luck.
@@bill-winke could you do it by just edge feathering, but dropping the trees inward away from the plot vs into it? Let Mother Nature create the transition?
I wouldn’t involve the government at all. Just plant native grasses, switch, blue stems which stay upright during winter and oaks with food plot in the middle like you said bill. Make small changes overtime and use trees for logging overtime to pay for certain areas overtime.
You make a good point, but long-term he may choose to convert a bigger part of his farm into habitat and that means giving up a lot of farm income or putting those acres into CRP.
Dream Big brother 🙏
Thanks Edward. Have a great day.
Ironwood among many other species have trees may not be highly prefered by deer but its wrong to say they dont have wildlife value for other species diversity is key!
I hate it for you, but we all do it. I have had my share for sure. Good luck this season.
Bill and Jordan, thanks for sharing the experience per the consultation on a great piece of property. I anticipate this property will be home to many great bucks in the near future. Well done and wish you the best Jordan !
Thanks BJM. It does have a lot of potential. There are good genetics in the area and all the bucks need is age. The more Jordan can keep on his farm, the more bucks can reach the five or six years old when they start to reach their potential. Have a great day.
Love these consultations!
Thanks Jarrod. Much appreciated.
Like these consulting videos.
Thanks Mitchell. They are fun to put together too. Have a great day.
That’s a nice place you have there Jordan!! My uncle has 30 acre’s in Owen county Southern Indiana and man the hunting is prime!!!
Great video Bill!!
Always pay attention to your ideas and strategies, definitely learning every video
Thanks for the comment and the support Mark and good luck in 2023.
Thanks a lot for uploading these consultation videos. Learnt a lot. Keep them coming
Thanks for the comment Afif. I appreciate it.
Informative video.. I liked that his ag fields were in the middle of the farm.. I also found it interesting that you said deer don't always go to thick cover to bed. That has been my observation in the Midwest as well.. It's all about your neighbors when hunting these mature bucks!! Bad neighbors mean very few high scoring mature bucks (culls survive) and lots of does.
David, absolutely. There are a few things you can do to keep a few more bucks on your place for longer, but in the end, you are only as good as your neighbors. Good observation.
What’s the green stuff in the ag? Cover crop or just weeds?
Cover crop. It is cereal/winter rye.
Really enjoy this,great job.
Thanks Joe. I appreciate it. Have a great day.
Thank you, Bill and Jordan. Good video. As previously mentioned, Indiana just has way too many days of firearm season. Hard to hold any buck that many days on a designated farm.
It helps if you have the best food in the neighborhood, which this farm did not.
Such incredible potential for this place, so much land it seems overwhelming. But wow that place could be the epitome of Whitetail and giant buck paradise. Your plans look great and make perfect sense Bill.
Thanks Josh. I am really looking forward to seeing what they shoot. They had some really good bucks on camera from past years so the potential is really great in that area. Have a great day.
Your in my neck of the woods Bill great info as always
It is a beautiful part of the country Justin. I really enjoyed the visit. We stayed in French Lick, which was cool. I wanted a Larry Bird high school jersey, but didn't see where I could buy one. That would be really cool.
beautiful country!
Glad to hear you enjoyed your stay in Indiana! I hope the Casino treated you well! It Definitely has a lot of potential, some great deer run this area!
We stayed away from the casino. My daughter Jordan and Ethan did go to the dome and work in there on day two when I was back with Jordan the landowner on his farm. Very cool old building! We had a fun time. Now I want a Larry Bird high school jersey. That would be really cool.
Good to hear lots of cool history in that little town!
Love the info Bill. I agree with your stance on Beech trees “except” if one is in a good stand location. Excellent trees to bow hunt out of. They hold their leaves throughout the hunting season and easy to set up in. Sturdy too. Did you ever go over what type of food plots to establish? Just curious. Thanks as always 👍
Thanks Steven. In the cover (the small plots) it would be a cycle of clover and brassicas. In the open fields (larger plots) it would be corn, ideally. Corn provides both fall and winter attraction and is super easy to sneak through when accessing nearby stands. That is one of the most overlooked aspects of corn, you can use it for a screen to cross open areas. Have a great day.
Personally I would not involve the government at all unless you need the funds. I would plant switch grass out from the edges not trees. Create strips of food with switch separating the food. Plant a diversity of food and funnel them right by your stand. Good stuff Bill and a great looking property.
You know that is a good point. If you aren't taking CRP funds they can't tell you what to do on the rest of your farm. I am just not a fan of switchgrass. I like planting trees. You end up with a lot of diversity that way.
kind of a similar layout where I hunt in southern zone of ny. that second spot where the corn field was looks like a honey hole. in my experience after the corn is cut its time to head into the bottoms.
Thanks for the comment. That is an interesting take. Generally, I like to stay out of the bottoms except in a blind because the wind swirls so much in those places.
@@bill-winkeyes you are most certainly correct. my blind sits on top of a ridge that overlooks the bottom with an expressway behind me. just a spot that seems to work
Bill, I know there are only so many hours in a day but meet-and-greets would be awesome while you are traveling for these consults. Could be something like picking a local church that could house quite a few people and just have a pitch in dinner where you just show up and shoot the breeze talkin deer, get your belly full and leave haha. I'm Harrison county, Southern Indiana and there's no one I would rather meet! Keep up the great work.
I think that would be a lot of fun - especially the belly full part! I appreciate your support and the comment. It is something I can consider in the future. It would require an extra day added to the trip because I like to spend the evening between the two on-farm days meeting with the landowner specifically about his property and hunting style. Have a great day.
I’m in Indiana myself and I agree this would be an awesome idea!!
Thanks Bill for your very informative and educational videos on creating a deer paradise, and a bow hunters dream!
On this consultation, were predominate winds considered with your strategizing along with any natural or man made water sources? Thanks again!
Oscar, we were focused primarily on available locations. There were only so many spots (seven) on that farm that we felt really set up for creating these types of spots. All of them will be huntable when the time comes. We did discuss very generally how to hunt them. He had a couple of small ponds he had made, but we never got that far with respect to adding more. They are important, but that is pretty easy stuff to add later. We spent almost all our time trying to figure out how to make a long-term plan that really revolves around the farm fields and how to eventually restructure those 180 acres. What you saw in this video is just step one. Have a great day.
Thanks for the information, have always enjoyed your show. What do you recommend planting in these small kill plots?
Thanks Steve, I appreciate it. I would plant a rotation of clover and brassicas (turnips, radishes, etc.). Clover for roughly two years (maybe three if it holds up) and then till it under on that final summer and broadcast brassicas. That winter late (Feb./Mar.) broadcast (frost seed) the clover back in again for the next clover rotation. Just be sure to keep up with the soil quality (pH and fertility) and you can do this forever. Good luck.
7:45. Beech trees are not necessarily useless to the wildlife, the don’t have a heavy mast very often but almost all wildlife, especially turkey and squirrels, and even whitetails do like beech nuts!
I think they are considered weed trees there by foresters because of how aggressively they spread and thereby outcompete oaks. I am sure a few of them is fine for mast diversity, but for timber value and long-term property value, the oaks rank higher. Have a great day.
Oh I could go on and on but I’ll try to keep it short. We’ve been hunting a farm the past 4 years crops on one side, cattle on a rotational program on the other half very little tree covering. On the crop side the neighbors has a CRP field around 600 yards by 200 yards and the deer live in it and no one hunts it so amazing to see all the deer moving around in it but if a deer comes into the crops it game on for us. I would leave a couple stumps and put your mineral lick on it makes it harder for them to dig around the roots. Now if they cut the timber out of a deep valley let them briars grow up in there to where you can’t walk through it the deer will use it to bed in but very hard to hunt because they can usually see you even if your on a travel path 👍✌🏻🇺🇸
Great video, I would love to see a consult on small acreage. I have 30 on riverfront in MI. Holding Deer is an interesting concept on there due to seasonal and unpredictable flooding 😂
I do have a consult in a smaller piece coming up soon, but not everyone wants to have their visit filmed. Some people are very private about that stuff. I will see if this fellow will allow it. Have a great day.
Man that ag field is going to be tough. If you plant corn than most likely they’ll bed in it. Beans maybe strips of corn. I’m assuming he doesn’t own the ag part and just leases it. Like you said it needs extended into the field for bowhunting. Can’t really plant oaks if it isn’t his ag. Sure would need electric fence around beans. I hope they left some oaks in the timber and not all junk. Amazing potential
He owns the ag and cash rents it to a local farmer. I guess the local farmer is very efficient though and usually has his beans out in late September and corn out in mid to late October. They did leave a ton of young to middle aged oaks, stuff up to about 15 inches diameter. Have a great day.
Killing morel mushroom habitat
Wow if you were in French lick you were close to my farm!
Any possibility of you doing seminars? I know a lot of us would pay to come to a talk you could give on whitetails, or bow hunting. Maybe meet some of your sponsors and see their products.
I really liked that area. Very beautiful and has a ton of potential for growing big deer. The seminars are a good idea. I had one fellow suggest I combine those with my consulting trips. Definitely something to think about. Have a great day.
I would recommend shrubs rather than trees. He already has established timber on the edges of those corners. Soften that edge by adding shrubs and native grass to hold the soil on steeper sides & as you said keep food on top.
Edit: Jordan should reach out to his DNR or burn association to get a burn plan for his timber. That is a good way to keep that succession at the desired stage. A 3-5 year rotation would maintain good quality deer habitat and prevent straight briars.
We talked about a burn at some length but there is so much dead wood on the ground now from the logging that a fire would likely burn for many days. I would not want a week-long fire on my farm.
@@bill-winke Could be scheduled prior to a big rain event or a snow that would extinguish the smouldering logs
@@usernamehere6061 Yes, good point. I need to learn a lot more about fire and do a number of them on my farm before I start to tell others to do it. I will get there as I know it is an important part of habitat improvment.
great video, what do you think is the smallest clear cut that can still work for bedding and cover ? i have a 10 acre area that i would like to convert to bedding, but not sure i should do it all at once.
Even doing TSI on just a couple acres will make a difference. I would start small and then possibly enlarge the area next year. Good luck.
@cliffysummers6534 great question I’m blessed to own my own hunting farm it’s not huge but it’s mine and I am very thankful for God giving me this opportunity to own my place it’s only 123 acres but lays out well and dosnt have a ton of hunting pressure around it I’ve passed a certain buck two years in a row prob shoot have harvested him this year but I thought let’s see if we can get him one more year so far so good he made it but I have been doing tsi I did around a 7 acre spot and another 10 and didn’t know if I should do more
Bill...how many acres is the farm? What are you suggesting for Jordan to plant in the small plots in the woods, and the larger plots out in the open areas?. thanks, Bob
Yes, plant them both. One of his neighbors has a huge amount of food (crop fields) that don't get picked until Christmas so he is losing a ton of his bucks that direction in the fall. He needs a lot more food and will really benefit long-term from creating both types of food sources. It is around 600 acres, if I remember right.
Simple clover plots work. They are easy to manage with 2-4DB & you have the option to interseed annuals (wheat, etc) each year if you want. Deer browse will keep them managed so you won't have to mow it any.
So what are you suggesting he plant in the plots?
@@rfb7117 I just answered your question for him, dimwit
@@rfb7117Username got it right on the smaller plots - greens. That would be a rotation of clover and brassicas (turnips and forage radishes, dwarf essex rape, etc.). I would plant corn, if possible, every year in the bigger plots that used to be ag fields. I would want that cover created by corn to sneak in and out when hunting the inner plot and to have for late mid-to-late season attraction on that farm. There are also tricks you can play with corn (knock some of it down - where legal) if you want to focus the deer for closer range shots with a bow.
How many acres is his place?
It is somewhere around 600, I believe.
It is great that all of those tops are there but whoever laid them out, didn't do him much justice for forcing the deer where you want them to go or creating entry / exit routes for him. I know it is a work in progress but it is a lot easier to have them move them were you want with the skidder than having to do the work a second time. The stumps and roots you can get with a forestry head on a skid steer. Even better if the timber company has a dedicated Fecon unit. Most common theme I notice with people is they over look renting equipment and operating themselves.
Agreed, I was not a big fan of all the piles. He does have a skid loader and really big bull dozer so maybe he will scatter them out. I think those piles will inhibit growth of underbrush in those areas too. But as you said, it is a work in progress. So many things to go over. I could have spent another day there and still had fresh stuff to discuss, but I try to spend the bulk of my time teaching rather than just telling someone what to do. If they know the why, they can make the adjustments as needed. Have a great day.
Those new Red Ryder BB guns are such a disappointment... I still have mine from the early 90s and it is awesome compared to todays... I started a few items on my list for this year on my little parcel.
Yes, George. I know Broden hit at least one bird - I watched and was jealous I didn't have a BB gun too! The bird just flew away. Good luck with your property.
Before cutting the beech do some research on treating the stumps. You could end up with a monoculture of beech if not cut and treated at the right time of the year.
Good point Eric. As I discussed the ironwood in my area, you have to kill it after cutting it off or you have a mess. Have a great day.
@@bill-winke the deer in this area really hit the stump sprouts from ironwood keeping them from growing into anything big. Enjoy watching the new farm taking shape and the client visits.
@@ericbaylor3571 Eric, in my experience, untreated ironwood stumps are a bad thing. My deer didn't eat the sprouts and the result was 15 trees where there used to be just one.
Hit me up if you need someone to come shoot one of those bully bucks lol
Exactly. In reality, that is a good opportunity on many of the managed farms. Once the landowners realize what is going on, they really need people they can trust to shoot the "right" bucks.
Great video. Patagonia apparel company is very anti-hunting, however.
Yes. My daughter told me that just two days ago. It's a shame because I grew up wearing Patagonia outdoor clothing. Too bad they picked the wrong side.
This is the first I’ve heard of that I will be donating to goodwill
TSI ???
Timber Stand Improvement. It means cutting out the junk trees to give the valuable timber more opportunity to reach its potential. Professional foresters typically will mark the cut and then anyone with a tree cutting skill can either kill them standing or cut them down. Have a great day.
Almost looks like they didn't take enough. Looked like a 35 to 45% removal.
Some spots they cut harder than others. They were mostly after oak but Jordan is going to do a second cut to take the big beech trees. I guess there is a local market for those.
@@bill-winke in Northern Michigan with mostly popular, maple, pines. I kinda wish mine was clear cut with tops chipped. There was just so much material on ground regeneration was sub optimal
@@travissmith-wz5nc Agreed, but with hardwoods, the young trees will grow right up through the tops and that tops will protect them from overbrowsing while they are getting started. It works pretty well.
Good luck in indiana! 30+ days of gun season. Sure could be a great state but the DNR don’t care
Good point. The upside these guys have is that there is not a lot of hunting pressure around them. Have a great day.
I love our 15 day gun season here in Kentucky , since I primarily bow hunt.
What does 30 days of gun hunt matter? Kentucky had a harvest of 132k Indiana was 121k..
@@bill-winke can’t beat that!! Enjoyed the video
@@garylytlejr In my opinion, it isn't so much the 30 days, but it's that our season always starts on the Saturday after the 11th of November (middle of the rut). That is really holding Indiana back compared to states like Iowa and Ohio, which have much later firearms seasons. Between crossbows, high-power rifles, and mid-rut/long firearms season, we as a state are putting way too much pressure on the bucks. Only thing Indiana does right is the one-buck-rule.
Just to let everyone know, there are no deer here in Indiana. 🤐
Exactly. Stay away, right? Have a great day.
Need to film with better camera to grainy on tv Just mu observation
Some of the b-roll is old footage, but the stuff we shot there in IN looks really clear on my computer. Maybe your internet speed slowed down and it automatically streamed in lower resolution.
@@bill-winke that is quite possible
It looks fine to me
@@bill-winke Looked good on my computer too.
Looked clear for me