Great video, thanks for doing it. That fiberglass bow looks like the first bow I bought back in 1965. It too was missing the first number, so I did not know if it was a 35 or 45 pound bow. I really liked the bow, I could shoot left or right handed. It started my love for traditional archery that has continued for 50 plus years.
If I am tuning, I found it imperative to attach a bow sight with pins and really focus on using them. Otherwise my subconscious takes over and quickly adjusts to something like a change in brace height. If you film arrows in slow motion and then make a one inch change in brace height, you will definitely see a change in flight characteristics. Your point of impact might not change all that much but will likely see you are shooting either a slightly weak or slightly strong arrow. Where this really shows up is in broadhead arrow penetration. A true broadhead arrow will definitely penetrate much better than either a weak or strong arrow. If you are hunting with a 40lb bow that could make the difference between a clean ethical kill and something less than that.
agreed. also when you have broadheads which act like a sail at the front of the arrow, suddenly those feathers aren't so great at hiding tuning issues. hunting is a very different situation to target archery.
The discussion here is great and tells me a lot more about two main camps for archers. There's one camp that have fun and are happy to hit a target at 20 or 30 yards, and they don't want to spend their time tuning. The other camp have fun and enjoy tuning their bows (and arrows) so they can achieve tight groups at close range, they also enjoy extending their shooting out to much further distances. As long as both camps enjoy what they are doing is all that matters. I would say that brace height tuning is both fact and fiction - fiction for the first camp and fact for the second camp.
hmm. As I understood your shot process, you're shooting the first arrow as an aim point indicator and then adjust your subsequent shots accordingly. totally fine. but after changing your brace height, did you use the same aim point as before ? Or did you just use the same shot process ? Wouldn't it be a more accurate test to use a fixed aiming point for all your shots at all brace heights ? Love you videos!
Changing brace height changes the dynamic spine of the arrow, presumably due to the change in distance between the nock and where the arrow contacts the bow (shelf or plunger) as it enters free flight. This won't be noticeable when shooting fletched arrows, esp. 4 large feathers. However, if you shoot bare shafts as part of your tuning process you will see this. I was playing around with increasing my brace height to make my bow more forgiving of a less than perfect release. The recommended BH on my aluminum ILF riser is 8.5"-9.5". I went from 8.5" to 9 3/8", which was going from one harmonic sweet spot up to the next (quietest, and least vibration). This changed my draw weight by less than half a pound (you can read about this on ArcheryTAlk where it is shown mathematically that there is a small increase in DW as BH is increased), but my bare shafts were now hitting about 14" right of my fletched group (whereas before they were hitting about 3-4" right of my fletched group). A higher BH causes the arrow to behave weaker, and vice versa. The reason you bare shaft tune is to get your bow and your dynamic arrow spine matched as best as possible, giving optimal arrow flight and the tightest groupings at the target when you're shooting your fletched arrows. The fletching is really just to help cover up a less-than-perfect tune and human error (poor releases). National level Olympic recurve shooters, because of a perfect arrow tune and excellent technique, can shoot grouped bare shafts at 70 meters. Most tuning guides recommend that you establish your brace height as a first step (find that harmonic sweet spot where the bow is quietest and has the least vibration), then set your nock point, and then begin bare shaft tuning (to check nock height and arrow spine). Some tuning guides don't even mention brace height because they assume that has been dealt with in "bow set-up" before you even get to tuning. I suggest anyone interested in learning more about tuning your bow and your arrows look to an authoritative source (Shooting the Stickbow, by former Olympian Anthony Camera is a good text that looks specifically at longbows and trad recurves; online tuning guides for recurve archery can be followed by trad and longbow shooters, just skip the parts that aren't relevant to your gear).
Nice dissertation, but I have to wonder, did you watch the video? The video was to test the myth that "When shooting, if you are off to one side, all you have to do is unstring your bow, adjust the brace height and it will bring you on target". That is why I did not test the bareshaft, it was not part of the myth. The myth was for flectched arrows out on a course, not the initial tuning.
The only thing i know for certain. Adjusting my brace height gives me different levels of comfort. Each bow has a sweet spot where they have just better arrow flight or a better feel as you shoot them.
Greg I got the same results when I attempted the brace height challenge. All I could notice was the bow grouping better or worse, no change in impact zones. Thank you for another great video,.
Good, honest video of a traditional archer and the many things you have to adjust on the fly in seconds. I know where your coming from on arrows. All your videos are good information from beginner to advanced.
Greg, good to see you are always thinking. If you (left hand shooter) ever have a day when your always shooting to the right arrow after arrow. Arrows are flying good and straight just to the right every time try raising your brace height and see what happens. And if your shooting to the left then lower it. That's what I was told over 35 years ago by someone who knew his stick bows. Thank you.
I am a left handed shooter. If my arrow is hitting to the right consistanly, I have to lower my brace height to bring it to the left. If it is hitting to the left, I need to raise my brace height to bring it to the right. I shoot a longbow, and have never tried it on anything else. I am sold on the fact that it works for me. So go figure?
Exactly, I know when I bare shaft tune the brace height definitely affects knock left and right. It may have flown straight with fletching and field point, but when putting on fix blade broad head it can show.
I agree with much of what this bloke comes up with. I have been testing with my Australian made Woomera 45# laminated long bow for a couple of years. Still can't really decide if I have my set up right. Bow is not centre shot, I'm Using 600 spine carbons with 3 five inch feathers usually 125 or 150 points. I like to stick close to the 10grains of arrow weight per pound of bow weight. Anyway, all these tests are interesting and thought provoking. Some I agree with, some not but its all good and well presented. You tube has so much poor quality wrong stuff. Archery 101 is a bright spot in the mud. Brian Mogriguy Australia
Brace height does affect where the arrow strikes, but its not a direct relationship. A lower brace height means the arrow is connected to the string longer before its released, meaning that its will be going faster and therefore it will behave as if it were softer (falling right for a right handed shooter). A higher brace height is the opposite. The arrows detaches from the string sooner, ends up traveling slower and so behaves as if it were more stiff (falling to the left for a right handed shooter). So, basically, its about arrow velocity and not brace height...
I wonder, how much longer is it in "Contact" with the string For? A Millisecond? If so, how much more energy can be transferred in that minuscule period of time? I can get just as much variance in speed by using good form as I ever could from changing brace height.
@@TradArchery101 That is probably true, but if your form is uniformly good and you need to fine tune for the spine of your arrows, you only got a couple of options. You an change point weight, but normally that is done in 10 grain increments. You can make arrows shorter to be stiffer, but you can't make them longer to be softer. The only think that gets you that list bit of fine tuning is brace height.
@@Waltham1892 Then we come back to the size of your shoot group. In order for it to have any affect you need to have a shot group that is amazingly small. The vast majority of archers (speaking trad) do not have a group that would be affected by it. In all my years of shooting (since the 70's) I have yet to see anyone, shoot, make a brace height adjustment and shoot better.
@@Waltham1892 Okay, that explains a lot. You are talking top level, with specialty gear. It might work with that gear, but it also may not work with just a wooden bow. Funny but not even Brady Ellison consistently shoots 10's. His average is 9.47. ;)
You are correct in saying that at this distance it's highly unlikely you'll find a difference in the lateral position of your arrows by changing the brace height. However, that is not what people normally refer to as "brace height tuning", at least in the recurve community. According to the Easton tuning guide, "locating the best brace height for your bow can significantly improve arrow grouping and shooting consistency." This is precisely what you get when you tune for the quietest shot, i.e. with "brace height tuning". It also says that brace height can make a marginal difference on the dynamic spine of the arrow, equivalent to changing the point weight by about 20 grains. But that can only be noticed at longer distances, and tuning for a quiet shot had a greater effect anyway.
that's what I was thinking. for testing purposes, using the same point of aim would show the difference. adjusting your point of aim after your first shot negates the test.
Good video, and as usual a good conversation starter. My brace height indicator is the old fist/thumb with about an inch or so eyeballed in, comes in at about 7 3/4 +/- depending on the bow, but then I will get a feel for any change when I shoot again. I've been shooting for years now, not a professional shooter I shoot for the enjoyment, maybe that makes the difference.
Greg. When you do any test hold or aim the same for all arrows. The grouping will tell you what is happening. Doesn’t have to be at a target. Could just be a spot. Your groups will move how they want.
low brace height affect shot if you release isn't good, whereas high brace height is more fogiving with bad release. After that brace height make just the bow quieter or louder. Ty greg for all your work
My analysis is IF THE BOW STRING IS OFF CENTER TO THE BOW, LENGTHENING OR SHORTENING THE STRING WILL CAUSE MORE OR LESS HORIZONTAL MOVEMENT OF THE ARROW ON THE TARGET.
I have found that brace height has no affect on shooting but lots of affect on shooter Way to short and my arm gets kissed. Also hand shock increases. (bow dependant on how much) Way to high, bow breaks (no not always but once is enough lol)
Do the same test without feathers, changing brace height changes the poundage on the bow. In your case as LH weak arrows will stick with the nock on the right and strong arrows will stick with the nock on the left. I use this to correctly match the spine of the arrows to the bow. You will not see any diference using feathers as they correct the flight of the arrow. Love your videos, keep up with the good work.
this what I thought as well ... but for practical purposes, as Greg pointed out, it does not matter ... you won't shoot without fletchings in a normal situation... maybe if he used smaller feathers (say 2.5" instead of his normal 5") it would show better ....
How much change in poundage would you get from 1/4" or 1/2" change in brace height? Not that much. The general rule is one pound for every two inches for draw length. i cannot see how a 1/4" change in brace height would change the poundage of a bow. But that is easy to test. If what you said was true, then the norm of XX pounds at 28" would not be a useful standard. Because, it would really depend on brace height.
@@TradArchery101 it does not depend on brace height nominally ... as bow poundage is load weight at a given bend of the limbs ... however the arrow leaves the string after the string stops, so if the string stops 1" closer to the bow, more energy was transferred ... think of it as a longer gun barrel while the powder load is the same ...
That is what many call cast, and that is very different than "changing the poundage" as claimed. I understand the concept of cast, not sure of much of a difference it would make. Again if I stay in manufacturers spec's that is only about an inch, and having a 6" shot group average like i do, will it really make a difference? It all comes down to how "tight" you groups are. If you have a 3" group, then maybe yes, you will see a difference. But with my 6" groupings, I cannot and what about all those with larger groupings? There is no way they will see a difference.
FYI....If you have a horsebow, do not adjust the brace height by twisting the string. You have to put knots in it to make the brace height larger. That's right, that also means that you can't make the brace height smaller unless you get a longer string. Horse bows are more prone to twisting in the limbs if you twist the string. Cheers :-)
it would be interesting to do this same test with bare shafts as that will show the differences better. Fletching covers a lot... especially if we are not getting nothing but X's. :)
You talked about making hold shits in the video. I understand the urge to get center groupings, but if you're obstensibly looking for a mechanical point of impact shift, then you need a consistent point of aim, otherwise the test is invalidated.
Sorry, but these are Practical Application experiments. The whole goal of the test was to see if the myth that "If you change your brace height you can move the arrow over to hit where you want". I could no replicate that at all. In fact, with all the changes, I was still in my normal 6" shot group. Therefore, the myth is not true. It was not to see if the arrow moved over by 1/8" of an inch, since that is beyond the vast majority of archers abilities.
@Bantham Nobilis Changing Brace height will change the position of the nock on the string, which changes how you have to aim in order to hit the same spot. The test was for left / right variance, which what was being tested and not vertical. I adjusted only for the vertical. Please take your unfounded hate elsewhere.
Interesting test. I didn't see a right and left movement. It would seem though if you increased the brace height. Then you would at least change the power of the limbs. That is to say, your bow would shoot stronger, which would elevate your arrow trajectory. Plus a change in nock position would also elevate your arrow. I don't know if the increase limb power and lowering of the nock position may cause it to shoot normal?
I have difficulty in obtaining correct length bow strings that are sold as for AMO length of bow instead of actual length and thus obtaining the preferred /recommended brace height.
I think the brace height has to do more with either reducing noise (higher brace) or increasing power stroke (low brace). He's playing with nocking points here.
I really love your videos, no matter the topic, you're just fun to watch and always happy What caught my eye at first in this video tho wasn't anything topic related but the fact that you didn't cut the loops of your yarn silencers open Did you forgot about that or was that on purpose? Just made me smile to see it Greetings from 'Germany
@@TradArchery101 Love that. As I said, always fun around you. Even just on video or typing. Hope I#ll get to shoot with you one day, when you return to Germany again maybe
I always doubted that it would make enough difference to even be descernable. It certainly does make a difference in how the bow behaves in terms of shock and noise, as you demonstrated as well. One more thing you could try is to see if raising or lowering brace height increases or decreases draw weight. I've read that as well and think it's just as much fiction as the change of impact you just did. I would think, if it made a difference that was detectable, you would see it with a chronograph test. I might even give that a try sometime, but I'll have to get my chrono back from #1 son first.
It doesn't change the bow weight, but it does change the length of the "power stroke", i.e. the time the arrow is being pushed by the bow. This results with a slightly different arrow speed (which you could also get with a different bow weight).
Interesting. Would a longer distance effect this and make a bigger difference ? After all I can score 5 x 9s and 1 x 7s at 20 yards but would struggle to do that at 50 yards longer distance greater variation after all my bow doesn't know if I'm shooting at something 20 yards or 50 yards the difference is in the trajectory of the arrow ?
How do you know at 50 yards if it was the change in brace height or your form? You have to be really accurate (and consistently so) at that range to notice it. I'm not and so I cannot test or say.
@@TradArchery101 My comment was in no way meant to be a criticism it was a great test well carried out and proved the point that the brace height makes little or no difference with fletched arrows on the poi. Do we as archers sometimes make simple things more complicated than they need be.
@@110adventures7 Not taking as criticism. Sorry if i came off that way. Just being honest that my groups at fifty are not tight enough tell a difference.
hi i really like your bow that u used on the second place that was very slim could you please let me know the name of the that bow so that i could buy it !!!
Is your square zeroed at the edge or at the metal string holder tabs... It matters otherwise your numbers are off if it's on the metal tabs and not the flat edge... Mines zeroed at the metal tabs you have to attach that to the string and then measure the braceheight from there to the button or grip valley You can't argue that the measurement was done the same for all bows because the actual braceheight measurement is wrong in the first place if it's not zeroed at the edge of the bow square
Used the same square on both and at the same locations, they measurements are accurate. Mine are from the edge, BTW. Even if they were inaccurate, by using the same device and measuring in the same way, it is even.
@@TradArchery101 I totally agree with the measuring system and consistency... From experience I was setting mine like yours but later found out that it was zeroed when it was attached to the string so my braceheight was on the low side the whole time before I realised... This is going back some years now
Then you did not listen to what I said. Even that “movement” was all within my normal shot radius. Was it the brace height that caused it or something else? No one can say that when there are so many variables.
Does a shorter brace height allow the arrow to be pushed farther by the string, there fore transferring more of that energy to the arrow? Does it have minimal effect? Very nice video, thank you.
I cannot say for sure, but I look at it this way, how much longer is the arrow in contact with the string? A Millisecond? How much more energy can be transferred in that time?
yes, you may get a few fps more with a lower brace height. with bows not cut past center like traditional longbows, it is a very effective fine tuning method; however, it works opposite to what you would expect. lower brace height will show the dynamic spine of the arrow to be stiff, while shorter brace height will show a weaker dynamic spine. I suspect this is due to the angle of the arrow upon release (archers paradox if you will), when a bow is not cut to or past center. which is why this is a great tuning method for traditional bows which either don't have a riser or are still 1/8 or more out of center, because you will change the angle upon release. such a confusing topic, but fun to experiment with to be sure. personally I find the quietest brace height and tune the arrow using point weight and length adjustments. if something changes and I need a quick fix or a minor adjustment, just a few twists of the string can sort it out. but feathers fix or hide everything anyways and I can only really tell the difference with bare shafts, but if you want to be closer to perfection with more tolerance for a bad release, it's a good idea to get it closer to that sweet spot.
Whenever my brace height is off my arrows land left or right depending on if its too tight or too loose.........HOWEVER, its only true for bows that i shoot with a heavy cant...and you just proved why that happens to me..because the nock moves up or down..so ..with my heavy cant angel that translates to left or right movement... if you shoot with no cant then it will either porpoise or print low but will not produce left and right variations only up or down.
@ well if you are not consistent you’re not gonna get a straight bare shaft anyway. Unless you’re cut far enough past center to run your arrow straight down the middle, then the shorter your brace height is, the stiffer your bare shaft will show. Similar to building out your riser. It can also make a difference with broadhead flight.
You didn’t prove anything except that the feathers did their job very well. Bare shaft them and see what happens. Also, if you learn to actually shoot the bow instead of letting the bow shoot you, you won’t be worried about your gap.
Gee Greg, why would I shoot my arrows without feathers, that is not what the myth is about. ? Do you do that out on the course? Any day you want to shoot with me, more than happy to so so.
It has to do with matching the spine of the arrow to the bow. Changing the brace height changes the effect of the dynamic spine. Nock tuning also has a positive effect on arrow flight. When your arrows fly straight without fletch, they fly that much better when fletched. The difference isn't very noticeable with field points, but is very apparent with broadheads. Give it a try. It works. I'd be happy to shoot with you anytime.
greg nicholas Then you do not understand the video is about the claim that you can change where the arrow hits simply by changing the brace height. This claim was not about a bareshaft but fletched arrows. So why would I test something outside of the claim? Where do you live? I’m in NY.
I do understand what your video was about. I've seen instances where it did effect the point of impact, and others that didn't. I think the change in impact was caused by the change in dynamic spine on an arrow that was marginally adequate for the bow. A stiff arrow normally hits to the left and a weak arrow to the right. (For a right hand bow. It's opposite for left handed)Hence my comment about bare shafting. I'm from Pennsylvania.
@@gsnicholas8522 I think you do not. Changing brace height will not have an effect on where your arrow hits, when shooting with a Trad bow. Shooting at 20 yards and under is the norm and I do not see any difference. I also contacted Gold Tip, Easton and others and when i asked them about this they just laughed and said that I should have better things to do. Maybe you should make a video to show how it does affect your shot. I live 40 minutes away from Milford PA.
WITH REGARD TO TARGET RECURVE BOWS: The idea of using brace height to "tune" the placement of arrows on target is deeply flawed - you don't use it for that. A bow with a badly set brace height CAN shoot inaccurately and part of the OVERALL tuning process is always to ensure that the brace height is set appropriately within the manufacturers recommendations. As with all things in archery it's a far more involved and interrelated issue.
Your shots are center on the second round though. You had a good group both times besides the 1st and fourth, but your group did move to the right so....
Then you missed the point. I have on average (when i made this video) a 6" shot group at 20 yards. In all the arrows i shot, some were left, some were right, but they where all within that 6" radius of the X. So, changing my brace height, did not change my groups, they still stayed within that six inch group. There was no change.
Doesn't make sense, Why would you adjust your aim? If anything you can tell the brace height does change your left to right by the first arrows you shot. The first reference arrow you shot landed to the right. After you decreased the brace height your reference arrow landed to the left signifying the arrow flexed less due to the bow being weaker. You want to make sure the arrows are leaving your bow correctly so bare shaft tuning will help you set up your brace height and make sure your arrows are spined correctly for your bow. If not you might get some helicoptering that will increase your spread on the target.
I had to readjust my point of aim for one simple reason, changing the brace height changed location of the nock point and thus changed my sight picture. As for where they landed. I could and would have gotten the same results without changing my brace height at all. at 20 yards, I can consistently shoot a 6" group. Changing my brace height did not, has not ever changed the size of my group. Therefore, changing your brace height does not change where you arrow will impact. Unless of course, as i stated you are shooting 2" groups, then, and only then, just maybe.
@@TradArchery101 Changing your brace height wont change the size of your groups very much but it might change the placement of the group left or right depending on the brace height. Stiff arrows land a bit left and weak arrow land a bit right. Say you have perfectly spined arrows for your bow and they shoot straight down the middle. Decreasing the brace height will weaken the bow leading to the arrows leaving the bow a bit stiffer and vice versa.
@@TradArchery101 I only say this because I'm in the middle of tuning my bow and arrows. Cutting point inserts, changing brace height, adjusting tiller bolts and knock placement. Its a nightmare lol.
Super Honest In my testing it did not produce any consistent change. I also have to question it making a bow weaker. How much of a change in brace height must to do to have an affect. None of my bows are that sensitive.
@@TradArchery101 Im bare shaft tuning my bow currently and noticed a difference in arrow placement when I change brace height. As you've said feathers help correct arrow flight drastically. Im using plastic vanes and its definitely noticable when bare shaft tuning.
I'm not sure you will ever see a difference at 20/25 yards. You will need to go out to 40/50/60yards to see it. First you will need to be able to shoot 5's consistently with tuned arrows or your not getting any true pictures.
Greg I changed the brace height on my Win and Will n target bow and what I did get was a grouper that was 11 inches. I worked it back to the factory specs an got 3 inch groupes . All these were shot at 30 yards . So, brace hight can make a difference. Maybe not L/R per say but in the accuracy of this bow. With highly tuned arrows.
@@TradArchery101 it was the fact that at that brace will not work on that bow. The factory specs says (+/-) 8.5 inches I have shot and continue to shoot it at 9" and a even tiller. As far as me I got one of the best grouped ends on this test because I tried to keep every thing perfect right down to my breathing. Having said this I am a bow hunter and only use this bow as training tool for my benefits. Yes I hunt with a 26 year old recurve, $450.00 then and train with a $1200.00 Win & Win but both are tuned to shoot the exact point on so my sight picture never changes. So you tell me was it me or the bow or the set up.
@@carlduncan8462 I would say you. A difference from 3" to 11" just with a Brace Height Change? I can shoot everyone one of my bows with different brace heights and not one would experience a 8" group difference.
Great Video.....Thanks!!! Perfect results for the Typical Good Archer shooting traditional gear. Maybe an Olympian shooting freestyle will see a difference in the placement of his 1/2 inch groups.........and that's not me lol.
I really enjoy your videoes but this testing is not consistent at all because fletchings cover up inconsistencies in the arrow flight if you truly wanted to see how much it affects your arrow flight you would do it with bare shafts not fletched shafts, which I have brace height tuned and changing brace height does 100 percent affect left and right. increasing brace height compensates for a stiff arrow and decreasing compensates for a weak arrow
Then you did not listen. The myth (mainly pushed by Grey Archer) is that a simple change in brace height will change where your arrows hit, fletched. There is also a big difference between what happens with a Barebow compared to a wooden bow.
Why didn’t you continuously have to adjust the nock point? I never noticed your arrow strikes nocking up or down and your nock position changes drastically, , 1/2” I think u said at one point. There is fiction here than I believe you are showing. Slight adjustments in nock heights, in my experience, have resulted in nock down and up for arrows shot, never saw this in yours. Did your nock point moving not change the arrow flight at all. Something doesn’t seem right here……
@@TradArchery101I may have made a mistake, not 1/2”, but you lowered the nock point 1/4” the first brace height adjustment(by an inch)and did not readjust it and all arrows still fly without tell tell signs of a 1/4” drop in nock point? If I change my nock point 1/4 in my arrows start porposing. Something still doesn’t seem right or nock point is not all that important in the scheme of things.
@@johnshort4421 From what I gather, the change in nock position is offset by the change in brace height. Which cause a change in cast and energy sent into the Arrow. If you are seeing a change with even a small adjustment, that signals that your arrows are at one end of the spectrum tolerance wise.
@@TradArchery101 hi again. This is why I am just being curious about this. Example. My first bow, 40# TD recurve cut on center, with a 7.5 brace height at smoothest and quietest of shot. If I changed my nock point, even a tad, once set to a position to make arrows fly without porposing, the arrows would again start the porposing. I just don’t see how brace does change the nock position, yours doesn’t seem to affect arrow flight in any way. Maybe I am not explaining things correctly but to me, what you are doing with brace height should be doing more to the arrow flight. The changes u r making are in inch increments, surley enough to affect the flight of the arrow. What am I missing?
example ,, bear 67,,,, 28in draw 43# at my draw 30 53#,,, kodiak hunter at 28 inch 44# at my draw 30,,,49# bows very.. length amo,,,typ,,,make,,,age,,,ect
Would it not still occur despite those differences? The myth is, if you change your brace height, you arrow will then hit left or right. Bow type, poundage is not a factor on a myth line this.
Sorry but your test is not correct when you lowered the brace height you needed to put the nocking point you needed to change the nocking point to make it all the same and you did not
Sorry but no. Trad archers do not adjust their nock height when they change the brace height. Many are glued in place, others used the metal. Not to practical to change when you are out on a course.
Coming from rifle shooting the biggest variable is the human shooting the weapon eg prone shooting with the rifle on a bag or tripod I can put pellet on pellet the only skill is setting up the gun keep everything the same just stand up and shoot .not a snow balls chance in hell am I anywhere near as accurate
Unless a Tradtional or bare bow archer consistantly hits 10 or 9 ring and then conducts an experiment, there are two many variables called human error. Dinner plate accuracy should be the realistic goal not 10/ 9 / 8. You will be very disappointed. Lol. Golf and archery are alike.... And to prove anything as a good baseline it would be 10-15 yards. Not 20 to 30 for admiration
I say your test is flawed because your brain is makig up for it I think if you use a machine you woould see a difference Interesting though. The way I understand it by decreasing brace height you are changing not.only the angle of the arrow off the riser making it less center shot you are increasing the power stroke too more string time more energy into the arrow. Hmmm I think a chrono may detect some but. As I said I believe your brain is instinctivly compensating
That is why I aimed. The only change would be nock point height. Which would change where the arrow hit. So, I compensated for that. I could not get any movement left or right in the arrows. Now, again I'm not talking absolutes, that is just ridiculous to do. If you have (like I do) a 6" group and just like in my test, you keep that 6" group, where is the difference? As for speed, how much longer is the arrow in contact with the string? A millisecond or less? So, how much more energy can be transmitted in the miniscule period of time?
The amount of draw does affect arrow speed and flight. If I draw 35#@28 and then Draw same bow to say 29"that is maybe 2or3 #difference so try the chrono
kenneth smith Again you are thinking in absolutes. With the same poundage bow, arrows string etc. you have a variable of speed of up to 6 FPS. Which again covers up any gain. We are not machines. I have not seen an archer yet that can repeat the same speeds on a consistent basis. The most I have ever seen is three in a row. All the others were different.
Great video, thanks for doing it. That fiberglass bow looks like the first bow I bought back in 1965. It too was missing the first number, so I did not know if it was a 35 or 45 pound bow. I really liked the bow, I could shoot left or right handed. It started my love for traditional archery that has continued for 50 plus years.
If I am tuning, I found it imperative to attach a bow sight with pins and really focus on using them. Otherwise my subconscious takes over and quickly adjusts to something like a change in brace height. If you film arrows in slow motion and then make a one inch change in brace height, you will definitely see a change in flight characteristics. Your point of impact might not change all that much but will likely see you are shooting either a slightly weak or slightly strong arrow. Where this really shows up is in broadhead arrow penetration. A true broadhead arrow will definitely penetrate much better than either a weak or strong arrow. If you are hunting with a 40lb bow that could make the difference between a clean ethical kill and something less than that.
agreed.
also when you have broadheads which act like a sail at the front of the arrow, suddenly those feathers aren't so great at hiding tuning issues.
hunting is a very different situation to target archery.
The discussion here is great and tells me a lot more about two main camps for archers. There's one camp that have fun and are happy to hit a target at 20 or 30 yards, and they don't want to spend their time tuning. The other camp have fun and enjoy tuning their bows (and arrows) so they can achieve tight groups at close range, they also enjoy extending their shooting out to much further distances. As long as both camps enjoy what they are doing is all that matters. I would say that brace height tuning is both fact and fiction - fiction for the first camp and fact for the second camp.
hmm. As I understood your shot process, you're shooting the first arrow as an aim point indicator and then adjust your subsequent shots accordingly. totally fine. but after changing your brace height, did you use the same aim point as before ? Or did you just use the same shot process ? Wouldn't it be a more accurate test to use a fixed aiming point for all your shots at all brace heights ?
Love you videos!
Brace height adjustment is only about making the bow happy. And you will hear it.
You're 100000000000% right
That only works if you are bareshaft. I can't believe you said "I don't tune my arrows"
Changing brace height changes the dynamic spine of the arrow, presumably due to the change in distance between the nock and where the arrow contacts the bow (shelf or plunger) as it enters free flight. This won't be noticeable when shooting fletched arrows, esp. 4 large feathers. However, if you shoot bare shafts as part of your tuning process you will see this. I was playing around with increasing my brace height to make my bow more forgiving of a less than perfect release. The recommended BH on my aluminum ILF riser is 8.5"-9.5". I went from 8.5" to 9 3/8", which was going from one harmonic sweet spot up to the next (quietest, and least vibration). This changed my draw weight by less than half a pound (you can read about this on ArcheryTAlk where it is shown mathematically that there is a small increase in DW as BH is increased), but my bare shafts were now hitting about 14" right of my fletched group (whereas before they were hitting about 3-4" right of my fletched group). A higher BH causes the arrow to behave weaker, and vice versa.
The reason you bare shaft tune is to get your bow and your dynamic arrow spine matched as best as possible, giving optimal arrow flight and the tightest groupings at the target when you're shooting your fletched arrows. The fletching is really just to help cover up a less-than-perfect tune and human error (poor releases). National level Olympic recurve shooters, because of a perfect arrow tune and excellent technique, can shoot grouped bare shafts at 70 meters.
Most tuning guides recommend that you establish your brace height as a first step (find that harmonic sweet spot where the bow is quietest and has the least vibration), then set your nock point, and then begin bare shaft tuning (to check nock height and arrow spine). Some tuning guides don't even mention brace height because they assume that has been dealt with in "bow set-up" before you even get to tuning. I suggest anyone interested in learning more about tuning your bow and your arrows look to an authoritative source (Shooting the Stickbow, by former Olympian Anthony Camera is a good text that looks specifically at longbows and trad recurves; online tuning guides for recurve archery can be followed by trad and longbow shooters, just skip the parts that aren't relevant to your gear).
Nice dissertation, but I have to wonder, did you watch the video? The video was to test the myth that "When shooting, if you are off to one side, all you have to do is unstring your bow, adjust the brace height and it will bring you on target". That is why I did not test the bareshaft, it was not part of the myth. The myth was for flectched arrows out on a course, not the initial tuning.
The only thing i know for certain. Adjusting my brace height gives me different levels of comfort. Each bow has a sweet spot where they have just better arrow flight or a better feel as you shoot them.
I fully agree.
Greg I got the same results when I attempted the brace height challenge. All I could notice was the bow grouping better or worse, no change in impact zones. Thank you for another great video,.
Good, honest video of a traditional archer and the many things you have to adjust on the fly in seconds. I know where your coming from on arrows. All your videos are good information from beginner to advanced.
Changing brace height changes the bow poundage. Useful if you need to increase or decrease to match arrow spine.
Greg, good to see you are always thinking. If you (left hand shooter) ever have a day when your always shooting to the right arrow after arrow.
Arrows are flying good and straight just to the right every time try raising your brace height and see what happens. And if your shooting to the left then lower it. That's what I was told over 35 years ago by someone who knew his stick bows. Thank you.
Shooting Left Handed Negates all Results......It defies all that is natural and good in this Universe. : )
I am a left handed shooter. If my arrow is hitting to the right consistanly, I have to lower my brace height to bring it to the left. If it is hitting to the left, I need to raise my brace height to bring it to the right. I shoot a longbow, and have never tried it on anything else. I am sold on the fact that it works for me. So go figure?
Greg could you please make another vid (playing with brace height) with bare shafts 🙏🏻
Exactly, I know when I bare shaft tune the brace height definitely affects knock left and right. It may have flown straight with fletching and field point, but when putting on fix blade broad head it can show.
I agree with much of what this bloke comes up with.
I have been testing with my Australian made Woomera 45# laminated long bow for a couple of years. Still can't really decide if I have my set up right. Bow is not centre shot, I'm Using 600 spine carbons with 3 five inch feathers usually 125 or 150 points.
I like to stick close to the 10grains of arrow weight per pound of bow weight.
Anyway, all these tests are interesting and thought provoking. Some I agree with, some not but its all good and well presented.
You tube has so much poor quality wrong stuff.
Archery 101 is a bright spot in the mud.
Brian Mogriguy Australia
Brace height does affect where the arrow strikes, but its not a direct relationship.
A lower brace height means the arrow is connected to the string longer before its released, meaning that its will be going faster and therefore it will behave as if it were softer (falling right for a right handed shooter).
A higher brace height is the opposite. The arrows detaches from the string sooner, ends up traveling slower and so behaves as if it were more stiff (falling to the left for a right handed shooter).
So, basically, its about arrow velocity and not brace height...
I wonder, how much longer is it in "Contact" with the string For? A Millisecond? If so, how much more energy can be transferred in that minuscule period of time?
I can get just as much variance in speed by using good form as I ever could from changing brace height.
@@TradArchery101 That is probably true, but if your form is uniformly good and you need to fine tune for the spine of your arrows, you only got a couple of options.
You an change point weight, but normally that is done in 10 grain increments. You can make arrows shorter to be stiffer, but you can't make them longer to be softer.
The only think that gets you that list bit of fine tuning is brace height.
@@Waltham1892
Then we come back to the size of your shoot group. In order for it to have any affect you need to have a shot group that is amazingly small. The vast majority of archers (speaking trad) do not have a group that would be affected by it.
In all my years of shooting (since the 70's) I have yet to see anyone, shoot, make a brace height adjustment and shoot better.
@@TradArchery101 I shoot Olympic Recurve and I've seen top shooters do it.
When you shoot 10's reliably you do what you can to rack up the X's.
@@Waltham1892
Okay, that explains a lot. You are talking top level, with specialty gear. It might work with that gear, but it also may not work with just a wooden bow.
Funny but not even Brady Ellison consistently shoots 10's. His average is 9.47. ;)
You are correct in saying that at this distance it's highly unlikely you'll find a difference in the lateral position of your arrows by changing the brace height. However, that is not what people normally refer to as "brace height tuning", at least in the recurve community.
According to the Easton tuning guide, "locating the best brace height for your bow can significantly improve arrow grouping and shooting consistency." This is precisely what you get when you tune for the quietest shot, i.e. with "brace height tuning".
It also says that brace height can make a marginal difference on the dynamic spine of the arrow, equivalent to changing the point weight by about 20 grains. But that can only be noticed at longer distances, and tuning for a quiet shot had a greater effect anyway.
wouldn't you want to use the same aim point regardless of where you're hitting? If you adjust your aim point then wouldn't you hit your mark?
that's what I was thinking. for testing purposes, using the same point of aim would show the difference. adjusting your point of aim after your first shot negates the test.
Good video, and as usual a good conversation starter. My brace height indicator is the old fist/thumb with about an inch or so eyeballed in, comes in at about 7 3/4 +/- depending on the bow, but then I will get a feel for any change when I shoot again. I've been shooting for years now, not a professional shooter I shoot for the enjoyment, maybe that makes the difference.
Greg. When you do any test hold or aim the same for all arrows. The grouping will tell you what is happening. Doesn’t have to be at a target. Could just be a spot. Your groups will move how they want.
Yes, I aim at the same spot for all.
low brace height affect shot if you release isn't good, whereas high brace height is more fogiving with bad release. After that brace height make just the bow quieter or louder.
Ty greg for all your work
My analysis is IF THE BOW STRING IS OFF CENTER TO THE BOW, LENGTHENING OR SHORTENING THE STRING WILL CAUSE MORE OR LESS HORIZONTAL MOVEMENT OF THE ARROW ON THE TARGET.
Shot for years never heard of brace height just shot and had fun
one of the best archery channels. TU..it's the nock point that is changing the accuracy slightly not the string height.
I have found that brace height has no affect on shooting but lots of affect on shooter
Way to short and my arm gets kissed.
Also hand shock increases. (bow dependant on how much)
Way to high, bow breaks (no not always but once is enough lol)
Do the same test without feathers, changing brace height changes the poundage on the bow. In your case as LH weak arrows will stick with the nock on the right and strong arrows will stick with the nock on the left. I use this to correctly match the spine of the arrows to the bow. You will not see any diference using feathers as they correct the flight of the arrow. Love your videos, keep up with the good work.
this what I thought as well ... but for practical purposes, as Greg pointed out, it does not matter ... you won't shoot without fletchings in a normal situation... maybe if he used smaller feathers (say 2.5" instead of his normal 5") it would show better ....
How much change in poundage would you get from 1/4" or 1/2" change in brace height? Not that much. The general rule is one pound for every two inches for draw length. i cannot see how a 1/4" change in brace height would change the poundage of a bow. But that is easy to test.
If what you said was true, then the norm of XX pounds at 28" would not be a useful standard. Because, it would really depend on brace height.
@@TradArchery101 it does not depend on brace height nominally ... as bow poundage is load weight at a given bend of the limbs ... however the arrow leaves the string after the string stops, so if the string stops 1" closer to the bow, more energy was transferred ... think of it as a longer gun barrel while the powder load is the same ...
(brace height changes the poundage) Nope!
That is what many call cast, and that is very different than "changing the poundage" as claimed. I understand the concept of cast, not sure of much of a difference it would make. Again if I stay in manufacturers spec's that is only about an inch, and having a 6" shot group average like i do, will it really make a difference?
It all comes down to how "tight" you groups are. If you have a 3" group, then maybe yes, you will see a difference. But with my 6" groupings, I cannot and what about all those with larger groupings? There is no way they will see a difference.
FYI....If you have a horsebow, do not adjust the brace height by twisting the string. You have to put knots in it to make the brace height larger. That's right, that also means that you can't make the brace height smaller unless you get a longer string. Horse bows are more prone to twisting in the limbs if you twist the string. Cheers :-)
That was great ,but i would also do an investigation in the Position of your silencers!
I understand that brace height affect s the arrow speed.
it would be interesting to do this same test with bare shafts as that will show the differences better. Fletching covers a lot... especially if we are not getting nothing but X's. :)
Greg,
Great presentation and analysis on this subject!
What was the brand and bow poundage of the laminated bow?
You talked about making hold shits in the video. I understand the urge to get center groupings, but if you're obstensibly looking for a mechanical point of impact shift, then you need a consistent point of aim, otherwise the test is invalidated.
Sorry, but these are Practical Application experiments. The whole goal of the test was to see if the myth that "If you change your brace height you can move the arrow over to hit where you want". I could no replicate that at all. In fact, with all the changes, I was still in my normal 6" shot group. Therefore, the myth is not true. It was not to see if the arrow moved over by 1/8" of an inch, since that is beyond the vast majority of archers abilities.
@Bantham Nobilis
Changing Brace height will change the position of the nock on the string, which changes how you have to aim in order to hit the same spot.
The test was for left / right variance, which what was being tested and not vertical. I adjusted only for the vertical. Please take your unfounded hate elsewhere.
I thought brace height only affected the bow noise and hand shock if there is any
Interesting test. I didn't see a right and left movement. It would seem though if you increased the brace height. Then you would at least change the power of the limbs. That is to say, your bow would shoot stronger, which would elevate your arrow trajectory. Plus a change in nock position would also elevate your arrow. I don't know if the increase limb power and lowering of the nock position may cause it to shoot normal?
I have difficulty in obtaining correct length bow strings that are sold as for AMO length of bow instead of actual length and thus obtaining the preferred /recommended brace height.
Know that feeling all too well. It really is hit and miss.
I use this when I bareshaft tune to fix nock left or nock right.
I think the brace height has to do more with either reducing noise (higher brace) or increasing power stroke (low brace). He's playing with nocking points here.
I really love your videos, no matter the topic, you're just fun to watch and always happy
What caught my eye at first in this video tho wasn't anything topic related but the fact that you didn't cut the loops of your yarn silencers open
Did you forgot about that or was that on purpose?
Just made me smile to see it
Greetings from 'Germany
On purpose. It was a joke for Jeff. I called it closed Loop Acoustics!
@@TradArchery101 Love that. As I said, always fun around you. Even just on video or typing. Hope I#ll get to shoot with you one day, when you return to Germany again maybe
i set my brace to quiet my bow, less slap, i like a tight brace, 7.5, other bows need a larger brace
I always doubted that it would make enough difference to even be descernable. It certainly does make a difference in how the bow behaves in terms of shock and noise, as you demonstrated as well. One more thing you could try is to see if raising or lowering brace height increases or decreases draw weight. I've read that as well and think it's just as much fiction as the change of impact you just did. I would think, if it made a difference that was detectable, you would see it with a chronograph test. I might even give that a try sometime, but I'll have to get my chrono back from #1 son first.
It doesn't change the bow weight, but it does change the length of the "power stroke", i.e. the time the arrow is being pushed by the bow. This results with a slightly different arrow speed (which you could also get with a different bow weight).
Interesting. Would a longer distance effect this and make a bigger difference ?
After all I can score 5 x 9s and 1 x 7s at 20 yards but would struggle to do that at 50 yards longer distance greater variation after all my bow doesn't know if I'm shooting at something 20 yards or 50 yards the difference is in the trajectory of the arrow ?
How do you know at 50 yards if it was the change in brace height or your form? You have to be really accurate (and consistently so) at that range to notice it. I'm not and so I cannot test or say.
@@TradArchery101 My comment was in no way meant to be a criticism it was a great test well carried out and proved the point that the brace height makes little or no difference with fletched arrows on the poi.
Do we as archers sometimes make simple things more complicated than they need be.
@@110adventures7
Not taking as criticism. Sorry if i came off that way. Just being honest that my groups at fifty are not tight enough tell a difference.
@@TradArchery101 Same here !
hi i really like your bow that u used on the second place that was very slim could you please let me know the name of the that bow so that i could buy it !!!
I have the same problem one always takes off
Great video, Greg!
Is your square zeroed at the edge or at the metal string holder tabs... It matters otherwise your numbers are off if it's on the metal tabs and not the flat edge...
Mines zeroed at the metal tabs you have to attach that to the string and then measure the braceheight from there to the button or grip valley
You can't argue that the measurement was done the same for all bows because the actual braceheight measurement is wrong in the first place if it's not zeroed at the edge of the bow square
Used the same square on both and at the same locations, they measurements are accurate. Mine are from the edge, BTW. Even if they were inaccurate, by using the same device and measuring in the same way, it is even.
@@TradArchery101 I totally agree with the measuring system and consistency... From experience I was setting mine like yours but later found out that it was zeroed when it was attached to the string so my braceheight was on the low side the whole time before I realised... This is going back some years now
Greg, please! the first group was slightly left of X and the second was on center with one arrow on X. Group moved left. Right?
Then you did not listen to what I said. Even that “movement” was all within my normal shot radius. Was it the brace height that caused it or something else? No one can say that when there are so many variables.
it did change the bow sound DID it help vibration ???
Can only thank Greg for the time he puts in to prove or disprove things.I agree with him here about the brace height.
7 1/4” was definitely faster than 8 1/4”. Could hear the difference
Does a shorter brace height allow the arrow to be pushed farther by the string, there fore transferring more of that energy to the arrow? Does it have minimal effect?
Very nice video, thank you.
I cannot say for sure, but I look at it this way, how much longer is the arrow in contact with the string? A Millisecond? How much more energy can be transferred in that time?
yes, you may get a few fps more with a lower brace height.
with bows not cut past center like traditional longbows, it is a very effective fine tuning method; however, it works opposite to what you would expect.
lower brace height will show the dynamic spine of the arrow to be stiff, while shorter brace height will show a weaker dynamic spine.
I suspect this is due to the angle of the arrow upon release (archers paradox if you will), when a bow is not cut to or past center.
which is why this is a great tuning method for traditional bows which either don't have a riser or are still 1/8 or more out of center, because you will change the angle upon release.
such a confusing topic, but fun to experiment with to be sure.
personally I find the quietest brace height and tune the arrow using point weight and length adjustments.
if something changes and I need a quick fix or a minor adjustment, just a few twists of the string can sort it out.
but feathers fix or hide everything anyways and I can only really tell the difference with bare shafts, but if you want to be closer to perfection with more tolerance for a bad release, it's a good idea to get it closer to that sweet spot.
@@x3roxide Man! What a well thought out and presented answer, thank you very much.
Can I ask why 4 features is there any benefit thanks for another great video.
One simple reason: They show up better on camera. That is the only reason I use them.
Thanks I like the looks of it my self, dose it slow your arrow down thanks Greg.
Ranger Archery. Thanks I’d like to try some. I really do like the way they look, plus you don’t have cock feather and could knock faster.
Great info.
Whenever my brace height is off my arrows land left or right depending on if its too tight or too loose.........HOWEVER, its only true for bows that i shoot with a heavy cant...and you just proved why that happens to me..because the nock moves up or down..so ..with my heavy cant angel that translates to left or right movement... if you shoot with no cant then it will either porpoise or print low but will not produce left and right variations only up or down.
Excellent experiment
It should make a difference in bare shaft tuning
Yes and no. If your form is not set, then it won't make one that you will notice. If you form is solid, then yes.
@ well if you are not consistent you’re not gonna get a straight bare shaft anyway. Unless you’re cut far enough past center to run your arrow straight down the middle, then the shorter your brace height is, the stiffer your bare shaft will show. Similar to building out your riser. It can also make a difference with broadhead flight.
You didn’t prove anything except that the feathers did their job very well. Bare shaft them and see what happens. Also, if you learn to actually shoot the bow instead of letting the bow shoot you, you won’t be worried about your gap.
Gee Greg, why would I shoot my arrows without feathers, that is not what the myth is about. ? Do you do that out on the course?
Any day you want to shoot with me, more than happy to so so.
It has to do with matching the spine of the arrow to the bow. Changing the brace height changes the effect of the dynamic spine. Nock tuning also has a positive effect on arrow flight. When your arrows fly straight without fletch, they fly that much better when fletched. The difference isn't very noticeable with field points, but is very apparent with broadheads. Give it a try. It works.
I'd be happy to shoot with you anytime.
greg nicholas
Then you do not understand the video is about the claim that you can change where the arrow hits simply by changing the brace height. This claim was not about a bareshaft but fletched arrows.
So why would I test something outside of the claim?
Where do you live? I’m in NY.
I do understand what your video was about. I've seen instances where it did effect the point of impact, and others that didn't. I think the change in impact was caused by the change in dynamic spine on an arrow that was marginally adequate for the bow. A stiff arrow normally hits to the left and a weak arrow to the right. (For a right hand bow. It's opposite for left handed)Hence my comment about bare shafting.
I'm from Pennsylvania.
@@gsnicholas8522
I think you do not. Changing brace height will not have an effect on where your arrow hits, when shooting with a Trad bow. Shooting at 20 yards and under is the norm and I do not see any difference.
I also contacted Gold Tip, Easton and others and when i asked them about this they just laughed and said that I should have better things to do.
Maybe you should make a video to show how it does affect your shot.
I live 40 minutes away from Milford PA.
WITH REGARD TO TARGET RECURVE BOWS: The idea of using brace height to "tune" the placement of arrows on target is deeply flawed - you don't use it for that. A bow with a badly set brace height CAN shoot inaccurately and part of the OVERALL tuning process is always to ensure that the brace height is set appropriately within the manufacturers recommendations. As with all things in archery it's a far more involved and interrelated issue.
Your shots are center on the second round though. You had a good group both times besides the 1st and fourth, but your group did move to the right so....
Then you missed the point. I have on average (when i made this video) a 6" shot group at 20 yards. In all the arrows i shot, some were left, some were right, but they where all within that 6" radius of the X. So, changing my brace height, did not change my groups, they still stayed within that six inch group. There was no change.
Doesn't make sense, Why would you adjust your aim? If anything you can tell the brace height does change your left to right by the first arrows you shot. The first reference arrow you shot landed to the right. After you decreased the brace height your reference arrow landed to the left signifying the arrow flexed less due to the bow being weaker.
You want to make sure the arrows are leaving your bow correctly so bare shaft tuning will help you set up your brace height and make sure your arrows are spined correctly for your bow. If not you might get some helicoptering that will increase your spread on the target.
I had to readjust my point of aim for one simple reason, changing the brace height changed location of the nock point and thus changed my sight picture.
As for where they landed. I could and would have gotten the same results without changing my brace height at all. at 20 yards, I can consistently shoot a 6" group. Changing my brace height did not, has not ever changed the size of my group. Therefore, changing your brace height does not change where you arrow will impact. Unless of course, as i stated you are shooting 2" groups, then, and only then, just maybe.
@@TradArchery101 Changing your brace height wont change the size of your groups very much but it might change the placement of the group left or right depending on the brace height. Stiff arrows land a bit left and weak arrow land a bit right.
Say you have perfectly spined arrows for your bow and they shoot straight down the middle. Decreasing the brace height will weaken the bow leading to the arrows leaving the bow a bit stiffer and vice versa.
@@TradArchery101 I only say this because I'm in the middle of tuning my bow and arrows. Cutting point inserts, changing brace height, adjusting tiller bolts and knock placement. Its a nightmare lol.
Super Honest
In my testing it did not produce any consistent change.
I also have to question it making a bow weaker. How
much of a change in brace height must to do to have an affect. None of my bows are that sensitive.
@@TradArchery101 Im bare shaft tuning my bow currently and noticed a difference in arrow placement when I change brace height. As you've said feathers help correct arrow flight drastically. Im using plastic vanes and its definitely noticable when bare shaft tuning.
I'm not sure you will ever see a difference at 20/25 yards. You will need to go out to 40/50/60yards to see it. First you will need to be able to shoot 5's consistently with tuned arrows or your not getting any true pictures.
Greg I changed the brace height on my Win and Will n target bow and what I did get was a grouper that was 11 inches. I worked it back to the factory specs an got 3 inch groupes . All these were shot at 30 yards . So, brace hight can make a difference. Maybe not L/R per say but in the accuracy of this bow. With highly tuned arrows.
Was it the bow, or was it you?
@@TradArchery101 it was the fact that at that brace will not work on that bow. The factory specs says (+/-) 8.5 inches I have shot and continue to shoot it at 9" and a even tiller. As far as me I got one of the best grouped ends on this test because I tried to keep every thing perfect right down to my breathing. Having said this I am a bow hunter and only use this bow as training tool for my benefits. Yes I hunt with a 26 year old recurve, $450.00 then and train with a $1200.00 Win & Win but both are tuned to shoot the exact point on so my sight picture never changes. So you tell me was it me or the bow or the set up.
@@carlduncan8462
I would say you. A difference from 3" to 11" just with a Brace Height Change?
I can shoot everyone one of my bows with different brace heights and not one would experience a 8" group difference.
Great Video.....Thanks!!!
Perfect results for the Typical Good Archer shooting traditional gear.
Maybe an Olympian shooting freestyle will see a difference in the placement of his 1/2 inch groups.........and that's not me lol.
depends on the bow,,, game over
No, it applies to all trad bows. Consistent form plays a huge part in it also. Variations in form will give false readings.
👏👏👏👏
Thank you so much sir👌I appreciate it a lot👍
You do all the work and we are just sucking inn the wisdom and learn🙏
In Greg We Trust 😇
I really enjoy your videoes but this testing is not consistent at all because fletchings cover up inconsistencies in the arrow flight if you truly wanted to see how much it affects your arrow flight you would do it with bare shafts not fletched shafts, which I have brace height tuned and changing brace height does 100 percent affect left and right. increasing brace height compensates for a stiff arrow and decreasing compensates for a weak arrow
Then you did not listen. The myth (mainly pushed by Grey Archer) is that a simple change in brace height will change where your arrows hit, fletched.
There is also a big difference between what happens with a Barebow compared to a wooden bow.
Right on brother
Why didn’t you continuously have to adjust the nock point? I never noticed your arrow strikes nocking up or down and your nock position changes drastically, , 1/2” I think u said at one point. There is fiction here than I believe you are showing. Slight adjustments in nock heights, in my experience, have resulted in nock down and up for arrows shot, never saw this in yours. Did your nock point moving not change the arrow flight at all. Something doesn’t seem right here……
Never moved the nock point, changing the Brace height 1/2" will not result in a 1/2" change in nock point location.
@@TradArchery101I may have made a mistake, not 1/2”, but you lowered the nock point 1/4” the first brace height adjustment(by an inch)and did not readjust it and all arrows still fly without tell tell signs of a 1/4” drop in nock point? If I change my nock point 1/4 in my arrows start porposing. Something still doesn’t seem right or nock point is not all that important in the scheme of things.
@@johnshort4421
From what I gather, the change in nock position is offset by the change in brace height. Which cause a change in cast and energy sent into the Arrow.
If you are seeing a change with even a small adjustment, that signals that your arrows are at one end of the spectrum tolerance wise.
@@TradArchery101 hi again. This is why I am just being curious about this. Example. My first bow, 40# TD recurve cut on center, with a 7.5 brace height at smoothest and quietest of shot. If I changed my nock point, even a tad, once set to a position to make arrows fly without porposing, the arrows would again start the porposing. I just don’t see how brace does change the nock position, yours doesn’t seem to affect arrow flight in any way. Maybe I am not explaining things correctly but to me, what you are doing with brace height should be doing more to the arrow flight. The changes u r making are in inch increments, surley enough to affect the flight of the arrow. What am I missing?
What type and spine arrows?
example ,, bear 67,,,, 28in draw 43# at my draw 30 53#,,, kodiak hunter at 28 inch 44# at my draw 30,,,49# bows very.. length amo,,,typ,,,make,,,age,,,ect
Would it not still occur despite those differences?
The myth is, if you change your brace height, you arrow will then hit left or right.
Bow type, poundage is not a factor on a myth line this.
Mythbusters would be proud sir.
Sorry but your test is not correct when you lowered the brace height you needed to put the nocking point you needed to change the nocking point to make it all the same and you did not
Sorry but no. Trad archers do not adjust their nock height when they change the brace height. Many are glued in place, others used the metal. Not to practical to change when you are out on a course.
so u both could be right ! hehee😁😁
How so? The myth is still there even with bows cut to center.
I think you have 1 bad arrow in your group.
Coming from rifle shooting the biggest variable is the human shooting the weapon eg prone shooting with the rifle on a bag or tripod I can put pellet on pellet the only skill is setting up the gun keep everything the same just stand up and shoot .not a snow balls chance in hell am I anywhere near as accurate
Unless a Tradtional or bare bow archer consistantly hits 10 or 9 ring and then conducts an experiment, there are two many variables called human error. Dinner plate accuracy should be the realistic goal not 10/ 9 / 8. You will be very disappointed. Lol. Golf and archery are alike.... And to prove anything as a good baseline it would be 10-15 yards. Not 20 to 30 for admiration
"I don't tune arrows"?! This is probably why you aren't a great target archer.
That and I have no desire to be.
I "tune" my arrows so that they fly straight and hit where I want. I do not go all out.
@@TradArchery101 I'm in the same camp, I just want to have enough pointers and be good enough for hunting.
He doesn't tune arrows? Are you still watching him? He doesn't know what he is doing! Ignorance is strength! Not in my book!
You should listen better.
I say your test is flawed because your brain is makig up for it I think if you use a machine you woould see a difference Interesting though. The way I understand it by decreasing brace height you are changing not.only the angle of the arrow off the riser making it less center shot you are increasing the power stroke too more string time more energy into the arrow. Hmmm I think a chrono may detect some but. As I said I believe your brain is instinctivly compensating
That is why I aimed. The only change would be nock point height. Which would change where the arrow hit. So, I compensated for that. I could not get any movement left or right in the arrows. Now, again I'm not talking absolutes, that is just ridiculous to do. If you have (like I do) a 6" group and just like in my test, you keep that 6" group, where is the difference?
As for speed, how much longer is the arrow in contact with the string? A millisecond or less? So, how much more energy can be transmitted in the miniscule period of time?
The amount of draw does affect arrow speed and flight. If I draw 35#@28 and then Draw same bow to say 29"that is maybe 2or3 #difference so try the chrono
kenneth smith
Again you are thinking in absolutes. With the same poundage bow, arrows string etc. you have a variable of speed of up to 6 FPS. Which again covers up any gain.
We are not machines. I have not seen an archer yet that can repeat the same speeds on a consistent basis. The most I have ever seen is three in a row. All the others were different.
debunking myths
Thank you so much sir👌I appreciate it a lot👍
You do all the work and we are just sucking inn the wisdom and learn🙏
In Greg We Trust 😇
Right on brother