Music Chat: Vaughan Williams' Job--His Greatest Work
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- Опубліковано 9 лис 2020
- Yes, I am not kidding. Better than the symphonies, better than the choral works, better even than the Tallis Fantasia, the ballet Job is a huge masterpiece and absolutely the best thing that Vaughan Williams ever wrote. Here is a discussion of the work (with musical examples), along with suggestions for the best recordings.
Musical Examples courtesy of Naxos Records.
Your video inspired me to dig out my well preserved heavyweight Orange and Gold Decca copy of Boults mono version of Job. Interesting to read from the liner notes “We need not declare categorically that Job is Vaughan Williams greatest work in order to argue with some forcefulness that if a catastrophe were to overwhelm the world tomorrow and we were left only with only one work from him it would have to be Job.”
Oh, yes. Job. What an extraordinary work. I first heard it when I was living in a cottage on a Cornish moor, when we had actual cows looking over the fence in our back garden. I could not believe what I was hearing.
I agree that, arguably, it’s his greatest work (I say arguably because I think the 5th is jostling for first position, too). It’s the ultimate film score of the mind. Handley’s was my first performance. I now have Boult EMI, which is an absolute knock-out. That’s also my go-to now.
However, there’s a touch in Handley I really like. After that organ solo (which I never really took to until I heard the full brass in Boult’s recording) and the brief pause, Handley gives us a really sickening explosion. We hear the very high violins scream over the brass and a great tam-tam crash. I really like that queasy effect. It’s like a visceral, in the pit of your stomach response to seeing Satan on God’s throne. I don’t hear that anywhere else. Apart from that, yeah, Boult’s your guy.
I think that's a very accurate description! Thank you.
So glad you covered this work. It's one of my all time favorites. It's fabulous.
I was introduced to this music in college by my conservatories percussion teacher...he burnt me one of the Boult recordings and it's been one of my favorites since 😁
I love the Davis recording of Job. Thank you for reminding me to give it another listen. This is superb music and well recorded. Multi channel SACD for me. I love the tension between light and dark and especially Job's struggle with temptation. My highest compliment is that I can turn off the lights and emotionally connect with this music. Thank you.
The music critic's plight: another day at the Job! 😁
This is one of the wonderful things about your videos: they make me scurry back to my cd-collection to rectify my many sins of omission. Great introduction to Job - can't wait to get aboard!
Best regards, Jens
I absolutely agree that Job is V-W’s masterpiece, not a dull moment in it and full of gorgeous melodies and orchestration. I first heard it on Boult’s old Everest recording and later upgraded to his last account on EMI. (The recent Handley recording is also a gem.) A bonus of Boult’s later recording is its coupling with the underappreciated Concerto for Two Pianos, which I think is one of his most interesting pieces, exploring, as it does, the percussive qualities of the piano and ending with a wonderful chromatic fugue.
Totally agree about the Concerto for Two Pianos.
Thank you for this and thank you for your championing of the work - absolutely yes his masterpiece, absolutely yes Boult! Worth looking for too, because of the sense of occasion, is the live 1972 VW 100th birthday performance by Boult. It's on a pirate cd somewhere but also on an official video release with Sym 8. Really enjoying all your talks - and enjoying parting with $$$ for music I hadn't yet got around to listening to!
So pleased you have done this chat. I agree, it is RVW's greatest work. Have had a number of recordings (Lloyd Jones, Handley) and finally settled on one of Boult's. There are at least three. He more than anyone else knew this piece. I do love the organ entry in the Handley recording though.
I was introduced to Job decades ago when my county Youth Orchestra played it, and I've loved it ever since. Nice to see that you're just as enthused by it!
Me too. Bedfordshire County Youth Orchestra mid 70s.
I say that is a GOOD JOB! Could not resist the temptation! :D
I first heard, and never played since, this piece when I was in an advanced youth orchestra. I had only been playing for four years with concomitant inexperience. I was very impressionable and this piece just overwhelmed me. I remember the music was in a large format in a handwritten style from Oxford Press that I thought, in my innocence, really was handwritten. Oh, how those memories are refreshed with this video. It was also my first exposure to the word "niente" at the very end of the piece. Thanks, Dave.
David, I agree entirely with everything you've said about this magnificent work and my favourite recording of it happens to be yours too. Nevertheless, I was very impressed with the sections of the David Lloyd-Jones you played and I might well look at getting that one too..
Yes. His masterpiece. Thanks for this.
Great review! Thank you Dave. 🙂
I bought the LP of the Handley when it came out. It’s a fabulous recording with tremendous immediacy and mind blowing bass. I can only think the digital transfer was badly done. I love it.
That is an amazing tamtam!!!!!
Hello Dave, thank you for bringing "Job" to my attention! I found my way to Vaughan-Williams through his "Sinfonia Antarctica" since I´m a collector of film scores and knew the film "Scott of the Antarctic" from watching it as a kid on TV and it making a deep impact on me (the music too, at least the parts that are actually audible in the film). From there I went for the other symphonies and was blown away. "Job" never entered my consciousness even though I got the Lloyd-Jones recording as part of a Naxos-Box of English music years ago. Since then it had been gathering dust. Not anymore! It has been dug out thanks to you and been constantly playing the last few days thanks to you. I might not always agree with your observations on works and/or recordings but this is truly a masterpiece. Just one observation: I also have Andrew Davis' Teldec version of "Job" and he seems to use just the organ without the brass like Handley. Am I correct? I wonder what he did in his remake for Chandos. It sure sounds too "churchy" like you said and diminishes an otherwise great recording. I´m reluctant to get Boult since EMI is rarely offering good sound in their recordings. So thanks again and keep on reviewing! 🙂
Yes, the passage marks the brass to be played "ad lib." It depends on the sound of the organ, really, and the taste of the conductor.
Got the cheapo Davis Belshazzar's Feast / Job combo. Came for the Feast, stayed for the Job. :)
There is a wonderful mixture between Dantesque drama and sexy drama. VW had a very quick temper and generosity. Wonderful stuff…
One of my favourite pieces of Vaughan Williams and I love Andrew Davis’ recent recording. Any chance of you doing a survey of my favourite piece of VW - his 5th symphony?
There's always a chance. The Fifth si a challenge though--there are many very fine performances.
Great piece. I first heard it on Boult's Everest LP courtesy of the UK WRC release. It sounds a little cramped on its CD reincarnation but it's still a fine version.
I’ve always had a soft spot for RVW’s middle-to-late symphonies, but it really is hard to beat Job. I was raised on Boult’s enchanting sound world for this piece, but I’m going to listen to this Naxos recording with Lloyd-Jones.
Great review of a great work! I've loved it for over 50 years! ..... And thanks you for being so kind to our Cow Pat School of English Music.... We love it! Kindest regards from the land of RVW, ELGAR, PURCELL, BRITTEN, HOLST, STANFORD, HOWELLS ( How about some Howells orchestral? Try his second piano concerto), IRELAND (Piano concerto, again and Mai Dun), ARNOLD,... AND AND AND..... KINDEST REGARDS FROM ACROSS THE OCEAN🇬🇧🎻
I did the Ireland PC (and played in it, and played along with it). ua-cam.com/video/J3oBnlDDJmw/v-deo.html
Thank you! Will listen to the Ireland immediately😁👍
@@phillipbissell My first encounter with Ireland was while watching the old film The Overlanders. That music was terrific!
I'm really enjoying this channel. I feel like I'm in a graduate musicology program (although I'm not sure that you would consider that a compliment 🙂)
It's the thought that counts, so thank you. Of course, I've never actually taken a graduate course in musicology, so I have no idea what that would look like!
In your Sea Symphony piece you say the EMI Boult sounded just perfect - I'd put his EMI Job in the same bracket. The music is so incredible that I can only listen to it in this great recording.
I just listened to Boult on Everest, and it was amazing. I never quite understood this ballet until now. His EMI version is harder to find, but I'll get to it. David, I'm wondering if you can discuss Frank Martin, a composer I adore, but who's discography is sporadic, to say the least. A lot of the older classic recordings are OOP. There are new ones, of his music, that pop up occasionally, but are often not available on streaming services. Would really appreciate a knowledgeable rundown.
He did a video on Frank Martin.
msw design, You are absolutely right. The Handley and Boult are both magnificent. Just listen to them and trust your own opinion. There are, of course, other fine readings, the Lloyd-Jones among them. Boult's wonderful final live Job (BBC Proms 1977) is worth seeking out in the depths of UA-cam.
I had written off Job years ago, but your advocacy will make me return to it. The only recording of it in my library is Boult's with the LPO, released in 1959 on Everest. How does this one compare to the latest Boult?
Faster, less well played, less well recorded, but it's still a good version. The LPO at this time was pretty second rate, though.
Herd d cattle, Flock of sheep. I agree with your judgement on this great work.
The inexplicable part of the Job story is the replacement wife and children. They’re interchangeable I guess, like LEGO pieces. Thanks for this video! I’d never heard of the piece.
We're talking the Bible here, and you expect logic?
My favorite composer. RVW could write band music, music for strings. And percussion! But what about the Mass in G Minor?? My favorite of all, and not even mentioned once in the Wikipedia page on Mr. Vaughan Williams!
Anybody who is considering the Boult recording of Job (the last one from the early 70's I believe) might want to look for the 8 disc EMI box of Boult conducting RVW's complete symphonies plus some concertos and orchestra works, including Job. I have the complete symphonies with Slatkin, but a used copy of the Boult 8 disc set was available for less than $20 with shipping so I was pretty much forced to buy it, particularly after listening to a recording of Boult conducting the Partita for Double String Orchestra from a 2 disc set of orchestral works. The Partita recording is from 1957, but other than 2 or 3 random studio noises the sound is very good. I think most of the recordings in the 8 disc box are from the late 60's and early 70's, so their sound quality should be as good or better.
Is that the first set you have? There is another set, which was rereleased, and contains the first recording of the opera, the Pilgrim's Progress.
@@francispanny5068 No, the Boult set I ordered is his last RVW cycle, I believe from the late 60's to early 70's. I just recently got all the RVW symphonies in the Slatkin box and really liked them, particularly numbers 3-6. I wasn't really in the market for another cycle this quickly, but was looking to pick up a recording of Job and saw that the 8 disc set with all the symphonies and Job only cost $7-$8 more than the single disc with Job. I might get around to the Pilgrim's Progress down the road.
Great survey. You could have mentioned that Boult’s performance of Eliuh’ s Dance of Youth and Beauty is sublime. I just wish I knew who the solo violin was.
It's sublime. Happy now? ;)
swimmad456, It could well have been John Georgiadis, Leader of the LSO 1965 - 1972.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I surrender
Just to echo the Wordsworth mentioned is rather splendid - truly spectacular recorded sound too particularly important in this work. I have it on the original Collins Classics coupled with an equally impressive Holst's The Perfect Fool ballet music.
Some of these Collins Classics recordings were fantastic - Fremaux's Walton 1st Symphony with the Philharmonia as well, gives Previn's classic LSO version a run for it's money IMO.
Generally agree also about the disappointing recording quality on Handley's VW symphony cycle, with the exception of the Fifth - that is just a beautiful, transcendent performance and the recording quality is perfect.
It's such a shame about the Collins recordings. One of the existing labels should just buy their whole catalogue. I could see Chandos making some money issuing a "Collins Collection". But even a purchase by Universal or Warner would be good.
@@ThreadBomb Naxos picked up some I think (Stuart Bedford's generally excellent CD's of miscellaneous Britten works, some Tippet as well) but didn't take the remainder - perhaps it duplicated what they had in their catalogue already?
@@ThreadBomb The recordings by The Sixteen and Harry Christophers were reissued on Coro, the ensemble's own label.
You are in agreement with Gustav Holst, who considered _JOB_ to Vaughan Williams' masterpiece.
May all th symphony directors who fail to program this marvelous work be plagued by boils.
I was thrilled that you presented RVW's "Job" and rightly praised it as one of the composer's greatest works. I have long regarded it as such. It's cumulative impact is devastating. And, like you, Dave, I was drawn into the piece when I first heard the exalted "Pavane of the Sons of Morning," or whatever it's called. I agree that the Lloyd-Jones recording is the best of the post-Boult versions (or at least the versions I have heard). Boult's last one, however, is my reference recording of the piece, as it is yours.
Have you heard RVW's opera, "A Pilgrim's Progress"? It has some passages of such great beauty as to rival the aforesaid Pavane. Indeed, the opera is written in very much the same musical vein.
I love that opera. With all its weaknesses, the music is consistently rewarding and there are some positively seraphic moments. The Hickox recording is splendid, don't you think?
Yes, I know PP and it is gorgeous.
@@UlfilasNZ Hello David. I don't know the Hickox version, only the Boult. If you have heard the Boult, how would you compare the two?
@@davidaiken1061 I like both recordings, but for me Gerald Finley's performance gives Hickox a decided advantage.
@@UlfilasNZ How about the orchestra? For me, in Boult's version most of the beautiful orchestration is drowned out by the singing.
Interesting that you mention that it sounds a bit like American 'prairie' music. It also reminds me of Miklos Rozsa's scores for other biblical epics Ben Hur and King of Kings. I wonder if he ever heard it?
When I first heard Rozsa's score I thought they sounded like Vaughan Williams, but I think that just because of the modal harmonies they both use.
Yes, Peter Taplin, I have also had that thought listening to some of the symphonies as well. Rozsa might well have heard VW's music when he was composing in England for Korda.
Your videos are amazing! I always used to find whatever recording I found first but your recommendations have improved the recordings I listen by a lot! Have you ever reviewed solo percussion work or considered doing a video on it? (I'm a percussionist too so I am a bit biased)
Not yet!
@@DavesClassicalGuide it’d be fun to hear you chat about some timpani and percussion concerti.
I can't be the only one who hears, in that big descending phrase at Satan's Enthronement, the fugue subject from the recently-completed Piano Concerto.
I thought about it less as a thematic resemblance between the two than simply as a bit of RVW's musical syntax.
Good spotting, ear method. Some of Satan's Dance of Triumph reminds me of some augmented chord patterns in Wasps Overture. Endless inventiveness.
Charles, Santa Barbara.
Symphony No.5 all the way, for me.
I completely agree. Sir Mark Elder describes Elgar 2 as the greatest ever British Symphony, but VW5 would be my candidate. I love Job too.
I think 5 is too "easy". It's one of my least favourite of his symphonies.
@@ThreadBomb Not sure what 'easy' means. Is it the same as the 'facile' that critics used to level at Britten? Which I came to realize means, superbly written, inspired and ingenious.
@@ThreadBomb 8th tha greatest no doubt
I have my own favourites among the Vaughan Williams symphonies, but the sheer range of the cycle is one of the reasons why it is one of the greatest symphony cycles ever written. He is very rare in that he was able to combine a love of the past with a ceaseless exploring. The quality and quantity of music he composed after he was 70 is extraordinary; the Ten Blake Songs he wrote in when he was 84 is the best setting of Blake ever written.
After your recent invocation of George Bernard Shaw’s take-down of Hubert Parry’s Job, I was secretly hoping that your review of the eponymous work by Williams followed a similar argument, but I’m happy to be disappointed in this case ;)
Do you note that Satans enthronement is a grotesque parody of the Pavane of the Sons of God????? Really cool!
Are you going to do more of the symphonies?
Why not?
@@DavesClassicalGuide :)
In the "O Thou Transcendant" documentary, there is a terrific excerpt of the 4th symphony conducted by Vasary. It's a shame he recorded no complete RVW works.
I have been curious for some time about a recording of Job that could supplant or replace my Handley recording, which is OK but doesn't sustain interest; as you say the recording may be partly to blame. Based on your video I will likely gravitate to Boult, Lloyd-Jones, or Wordsworth. Lloyd-Jones sounds really interesting
I love Job but don't listen to it nearly as much as the symphonies. It's a bit too patchy for my liking compared to them - especially in the way it tails off at the end. No doubt however, it has some of the best music VW ever wrote.
I agree, Job has great parts but doesn't have the structural satisfactions of the symphonies.
I found Boult's 60's Vision of Satan truly terrifying.
Flocks are sheep or I suppose birds eg geese, herds are cows or possibly goats.
And yes those are all good recommendations, Just for a change Andrew Davies with Bergen may be my second choice
I never would have known if you hadn't told me.
@@DavesClassicalGuide well who knows what they have in new england. You seemed confused. Anything to help
@@WolfGratz We have clusters, which are non species-specific.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Clusters? Telling geese they're in a cluster - no wonder they get confused. They may think they are cattle and start leaving pats.
Lloyd-Jones is the one I reach for most often. I have the (or "a") Boult in EMI's big RVW box (which for some reason used Handley's cycle but not his Job). Boult is okay but rather blunt as usual. I got the Handley when the record shop was rather cheekily selling off individual slip-cases of a box set. It was okay. Dave's criticisms stand, but I think I'd prefer Handley to Boult.
But now, let's have a really controversial talk about the theological implications of the Job story..... :D
Cracker Jack theology. Love it!
I think there's a 'top tier' of RVW works which belie the 'upper class twit cow pat' school of Brit composition. The Tallis Fantasia is not in the top tier IMHO. It's Job, Dona Nobis Pacem, Sancta Civitas, Hugh the Drover, Pilgrim's Progress, and the symphonies but particularly London and the central trilogy. These are some of the greatest works ever written in the twentieth century or any century, that have the existential tragedies of the 20th century tattooed on them. RVW is incredibly misunderstood - in many ways he was an English Bartok, he's not recognized as the musical progressive he is because the British folk music which brines his music sounds so much more traditional than the gypsy stuff Bartok based his music on, but it's just as radical an infusion of plebian life into high art music as anything in Bartok or Ives.
Well, no, it's not. It's much more harmonically conservative, as you suggest, and the fact that those others used folk or popular music too isn't really the point. There hasn't been anything terribly radical about that since Haydn. Bartók and Ives used popular elements to create an advanced musical language as complex and avant-garde as anything before or since. Vaughan Williams did not, nor was that his intention, as far as I can tell. I don't disagree about the music's greatness--just not for these reasons. He was a pretty straightforward romantic nationalist who happened along at a later time as compared with those in central Europe because of the peculiarities of English musical culture in the 19th century.
I just have trouble seeing him as a romantic. Obviously he was still quite romantic in the era of the Tallis Fantasia and Norfolk Rhapsody #1, but by the twenties he'd shed that skin in ways no one could have expected. In spite of the obvious 19th century influence there is so much 20C Paris by Job, so much Debussy and Ravel polytonality and impressionistic color. By the time you get to the 4th Symphony this is clearly a composer who'd heard Sacre and Wozzeck and incorporated a thing or two.
@@DavesClassicalGuide i agree RWV was much more interested in writing music that would be "useful" than in anything abstract like creating an advanced musical language. Above all else he was English - we don't go in for stuff for that.
I like the idea of a "tattoo of existential tragedy". Seen this way the stories are about resilience and endurance, which includes having a way of putting loss into some kind of perspective.
Symphony #3 is certainly like that, with it's bugle call in the third movement recalling a real life experience the composer had during WW1.