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Analyzing Philip Bayer's Wing Chun
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- Опубліковано 18 жов 2020
- Ben Cohen analyzes Wong Shun Leung's top student Philip Bayer. Bayer is a superb Wing Chun player and much can be learned by watching what he does.
The commentator doesn't understand what we're doing! It's class and I'm just showing them how to condition. It is the training method and not a competition, let alone a fight. Of course, the students are expecting: THEY WANT TO LEARN! This is only teaching nothing more! By the way, I was 57 on the video!
You look fantastic for 57! No disrespect meant Philipp. I was trying to explain the differences between our methods, and I was not saying your Wing Chun is bad. To the contrary, I think it is excellent.
The Guy is GOOD ! Sifu Nenad Koviljak who was closed door student of GM William Cheung and considered at that Time one of his best student in Europe, joined Sifu Philip Bayer lineage and became one of his closed door student. Sifu Nenad said he learned more in a 2 days seminar of Sifu Philip Bayer than for years with GM William Cheung. And he said about Sifu Philip Bayer : if he doesn't give it to you, you can't touch him, hit him .
4:20: you are wrong. Bayer is very good in receiving the pressure and projecting it back to his opponent, he is working through his back. You cannot see it and you cannot understand it until you can do it. It looks as he does not receive pressure because he is not letting the pressure to affect him. The whole idea of the "aggressive chisao" is to learn how to receive and keep pushing forward. You see only the speed and the coordination but you are blind to everything else that happens. What he does and while he does it this way - it all has its reasons. Better go to one of his seminars while he is still healthy enough to teach. He may open your eyes a little.
better testing knowledge against mid and high level kickboxers. that may open your eyes a little.
@@KovacsZoltan12 That is what I am doing.
I have had the honour of training with this man.
Go to his gym and try to put pressure on him.
You will feel like a petrified goat hoping nothing of the 7 punches hit you when you blinked while applying pressure.
Sorry, but your understanding is light years away from even grasping even the idea of Philipp Bayer chi sao. He is doing chisao with his students and they can’t have any chance because that’s his way. I trained under him some time and he is maybe the best in the world. I will tell you now shortly his way so that you can have a look on it again with other eyes. The idea is that after the first decisive impulse action you take control and always keep control. Your opponent doesn’t get the second chance so easily. Make your chisao practical for real life and cut away the BS. And chisao is only a drill
Your understanding of what Chi Sao is and how to train it is different to mine. That's totally fine. Bayer's Chi Sao is very, very good, just not what I practice.
I got it. Was in that place some years ago. Best you really check out other Wing Chun ways to see for yourself. I just recognized that your video claims to analyze Bayer style and then you just talk about some details and you can’t see the big picture. Try it out and better with someone like Philipp Bayer
@@BenCohenInternalWingChun and why dont u practise it?
@@rene2617 I do agree it needs to be understood, but this guy was making good observations and points, so I think really there is no need to be too defensive.
@@rene2617 will we ever see PB's phenomenal skills against non-compliant skilled attackers?
Philipp Bayer….best ever!
Bayer is very good, as are all of the WSL teachers/students. I think the reason they are not giving back foward energy is because at that level, the more you give out the harder your life becomes lol. if you train in WSL you'll know what I mean - especially at this level. However, the principle of constant forward pressure is correct and you're right to point it out. As for the arching of the back - agreed the students shouldn't be doing that - probably just a poor habit, or they are struggling under stress etc. As for overuse, or really incorrect use of bong sao in WSL, this is very true. If you look up Clive Potter, he made a really good video explaining how bong sao should be used and how to do it safely as well. Clive is a WSl student/teacher and I learned from him. The WSL line is one of the few that can fight to a high standard under pressure, for some reason this part of WC seems to have been lost over the years in many linegaes/schools. In WSl you are taught to test yourself as much as you can against any other lineages/styles and learn from it: an attitude that is very different from what the large commercial schools are teaching people. Also: you get hurt a lot in this lineage lol.
I've never met or trained with Philipp personally, but go and train with any renowned WSLVT guy and then re analyse your footage. I think you'll find most other VT is drastically inferior in comparison. But you can't feel that from watching clips on UA-cam!
CST wing chun is pretty good/ not inferior to wsl. he's looking at this in internal perspective maybe why he sees flaws but his crtique is correct for most part people should stand up str8.
I thought the curved spines was odd at first too, but having done some of it you start to feel where it comes from. Your body becomes something like an S shaped spring to redirect any pressure on you, or the equal and opposite force from what you are delivering. If you can do it perdectly straight backed effectively I'd loke to feel that working.
Hi nima king shows that the bong sau is defensive and offensive at the same time
I was going to point this out too. In WSLVT chisau, bong can be used to break your opponent's elbow-hip connection, setting up for inside pak-da, or jing jeung entry. There are other applications.
It’s hard to tell how good he is because he’s not practicing with anyone who has a decent amount of skill
For the movies on UA-cam, he only makes actions with people he can handle easily. I don't mean this negatively, but it is the truth. But how good someone is is difficult to measure and also not important. What can you learn from him that is important. I learned a lot from him between 1996 and 2018.
Sifu Cohen, how are you judging whether Sifu Bayer’s wing chun in this case or anyone else’s for that matter? Are you implying that Sifu Bayer’s wing chun is “internal” as you say it should be? I don’t know much about wing chun even though I’ve practiced it and have been exposed to it for years, because after I learned about this “internal” aspect of it I’ve had to totally rethink myself and try to sift through all the mystery and confusion! Now that I’ve experienced people like my Bagua and Tai Chi master Wu of “Way of the Dragon” internal martial arts, I’ve no other interest but to learn it(internal martial arts)!Wing Chun however is the most perplexing to learn, because unlike other so called internal styles; most of the time people don’t even mention let alone practice it in an internal manner! I’d greatly appreciate your input, or possibly making videos that demonstrate your particular style(which I think is quite awesome) with someone else’s like Grand Master Cheung’s(which I also love and practice) or anyone who practice’s wing chun with virtually no emphasis on it’s “internal aspects”. Thanks. ✌️🤲☝️
Ben Cohen...What is your opinion on Gary Lam and his WC ability?
My instructor trained with him for a while and had nothing but good things to say. I did actually do a couple of classes with him many years ago, but never touched hands. From his videos the only criticism I'd make is that few people are putting any real pressure on him, which makes it hard to tell how good he is.
I would like to see all the good systems in usage against the boxers. If you can stop a boxer and shut him down, you got my money. This is all I ask. Love the art, love the system, love it all. But there is still the problem of using against someone who won't play your game. Who goes in and out after he performs those 2-3 shots like the boxing usually does..
In the wsl line the footwork + forward momentum makes the boxer going in and out irrelevant. You are only allowed to dodge right? Or back up. Otherwise they run Into a punch. This was used to force people off cliffs in the old days. I feel like you have a misconception that wing chun fights by going into chi sao...they are looking for an opening to hit the face and if there isn't a opening one is created. Ex. You can pull there arm down if they resist pull to the side. The concept is simple pulling it off is why people go to class. If you dont belive me just take a wsl class and ask them about boxers moving in and out and repeat what I sed they can show you.
@@ZaddyZavid none of the things you talked about has ever been seen outside the class. Whenever anyone with these skills gets into a fight, they lose. Boxer is accustomed to get hit in the face. He can take it and give it back. Muay thai fighters fight until they are burger. The grit and mental toughness always win against flashiness.
Look man if you already made up your mind you not gonna hear anything I'm saying, but it's the truth. The problem with yr statement is you posit wing chun fighters never encountered a boxer or boxed themselves but they have. The sifu in wing chun the real art documentary WAS a undefeated boxer and in my own lineage our leader has won sanda championships. A better fighter is better regardless of the system. Your also not understanding how the system works. My own sifu told me to go in and out and see what happens and there was no escape. I had him demo for me like 3 times cuz i couldnt get why it works but it does. I went to see it for myself as should you. Like where do you live I will literally give an address.
@@lovelife1867 also gloves off no one can take more than 2 wing chun punches. Again if you go to a GOOD wing chun school they will have you hold a pad to feel how much power is in a sifu level wing chun punch and it is RIDICULOUSLY strong. My own punches are weak as hell/not good but whenever someone holds a pad they say I pack a wallop, imagine someone expert lvl.
guy ceaselessly in front of him, not trying to disengage, no kicks, i don't see much point in this
Let’s put all the questions about wing chun effectiveness to rest ounce and for all.All you wing chun peoples bring your top fighters,masters,chi sau grand champions,to my MMA gym and lets see what works and don’t work against a incorporating person.Time to put the talk and the BS to rest.
If you'd like to come train with us, please let me know. You can see for yourself whether what we do is practical or not.
This is simple chi sao. As you never learned the Wong Shun Leung method this is foreign to you. Which is a petty really because fake ving tsun gives the system a bad name.
Also, if you want more good examples of WSL chi sao, sparring etc, I would recommend Wang Zhi Peng, or Jai Harman's channels, as you may like to do breakdowns of their stuff as well. Thanks for the videos, keep up the good work.
I don’t really agree because especially his observations were mostly neglecting the major points. Luckily I had the honor to do chi sao with different Sifus who are big names in our Wing Chun family. 2 were even direct students of Yip Man so I believe I have some understanding of how chi sao should be done. Anyway it’s just not appropriate to discuss it here and I’m not often commenting because I try to focus on my stuff. This time I couldn’t leave it because it had so many wrong information. Sorry again for saying this so frankly, because still I’m positive for our Wing Chun. But sometimes you have to say something in order to avoid that these comments in this video are taken as given. And it should not taken too personally from the video producer, at least we have some information exchange
@@rene2617 Interesting, yeah I get where you are coming from. You know chi sao can be done in other ways as well...I know the way we practice but the commentator's points about bong sao being used incorrectly here make sense to me - as most people do practice it poorly. It is hard though to make observations without hearing the teaching going on here as well. I think many in WC tend to get focused on doctrine about this way or that way - really the best way is the one that works best.
I checked out Wang Zhi Peng not realising I'd seen him before, I really rate him as do the 2 lads I train with, he's one of the very few that you can see his power and don't have to feel something mystical to believe it. Although, sometimes WC can look scruffy and weak and its feels powerful. Everything is opinion of course that's why I usually never comment because of closed minded people that believe what they say and do is best, there's no room to grow that way
@@Beef-yc8wg Yeah, I mean real wing chun is very powerful and effective, but good schools are far and few between I think. They also don't tend to be the big well known schools. Fighting is scruffy right? I've sparred against people from all different styles over the years and when I'm using WC they're always like what 'the hell is this?'. Yeah, it's not what you see in ip man films, but it's how it's applied. We don't stand there trading blows at boxing range, control from our range - this is what's missing from a lot of wc teaching IMO.
@Chris Turnbull @Chris Turnbull I've had the same response when I've sparred with other styles. You're right though, good schools are few and far between and yep it should be powerful and practical. The big well known schools do tend give it a bad name. Some students are sickly sweet about their instructors and the infallibility of their systems it makes me cringe to be honest ha.
Make this guy look like a little girl.
Philipp is teaching here and mostly the guys are quite new beginner students and as a beginner he takes Philipps energy quite good - 😅
Wing chun re engineered. . will teach you the new age trapping into ground and pound. Makes
Wing chun Re engineered will kick this guy's butt .