Plain and simple, tank power in this clip has nothing to do with success or failure. The key was destroyed by every other players' bad choices/movement/casting instead of moving/etc. If you are calling for a different spec to be nerfed or buffed to offset your own poor performance, you are intentionally harming the game. Blizzard needs to review clips posted and analyzed by actual good players before making huge changes. I know I am not a great player, just average. Therefore, I tolerate rude complaints against me, and learn from them, even if the delivery is harsh. I can't get better if I don't listen to legit advice. Also, if I see someone struggling, I will help them learn, so that they know how they can improve for future play. Thanks for the continued guidance to help us all be better pug players.
A more healthy way to approach this is for the tank to simply ask the party if they want them to finish. I've received both answers in the past, but always honor the wishes of the party on it. It's not fun to watch from the floor, but it's also not fun to continue wiping on a boss over and over. In this instance, it was clear the party would have preferred a reset.
Ya realistically this is cut and dry. Normally they would leave after this wipe, but it doesn't matter because the boss can still be soloed from 100 percent. In other cases, its harder to say, because solo saving from say 10 percent might still take a while, and if you asked others they might SAY they want to try again, but all it takes is 1 to leave. If its from 10 percent, I do it even if they don't want me to. If its from 80 percent, just wipe and let them leave if they want, or pull again if not. At worst, you solo it from 100 percent. Not much of a difference.
@@heythereguysitsMetro i think if the other 3 guys leave ( when boss is not pulled ) , and the tank still wants to clear the dungeon for vault credit , it will start to auto close in 1 min.
To be fair, when I'm healing I do kinda want the ideal situation that Blizz laid out. I would LIKE tanks to take more damage, not be able to heal it all and health pools to not be as spikey - so as a healer, I DO have to work harder at healing. Right now, it's a race for the opposite most the time. I'm really not worried about tank health ever, I'm only worried about unavoidable group damage, and how many damage GCDs I can fit in while still healing it. This leaves healers in a spot where a lot of our kit isn't really that useful. Shamans only hit healing wave when it's mega juiced and will cleave with primordial. Priests just never hit the heal button, opting for flash to heal the minor damage faster. A lot of our effective HPS is really just not ever utilized because our maintenance healing is just worthless because damage is all spikey. Blizzard has repeatedly buffed sources of passive healing or centered entire tier sets around it... For example, Priest renew got tacked onto a bunch of stuff, holy got a tier all around prayer of mending in S2, etc. They're always pretty terrible. There's a ton of unused talents in every tree. Who tf is ever going to use lightwell in a dungeon? It procs at 50% and brings you to like 55, and if anything hits a dps they're gonna lose 60. Shaman's earthliving hadn't seen the light of day, there's a TON of druid talents in the same boat, etc, etc. Because there is only one healing pattern - burst - and the rule in high key is basically "keep everyone at 100, or they might get oneshot"" It's like the healer version of playing DoT classes in a M0 key with some burst DPS. You end up just not utilizing most your kit, instead opting for whatever does the most upfront. The funnest fights in DF on healer were those with consistent damage. Halls of Infusion's third boss was a ton of fun as a healer until it got to a super high key level where it once again became about spike damage and triage. So if they COULD get tanks to a point where they need our maintenance healing, and sometimes need a focus heal but their health isn't bouncing between 100 and 0, then I'd have a lot of fun with that I imagine. I just don't know if I trust that Blizz can hit that point, especially in M+ content which scales infinitely and EVENTUALLY damage WILL spike. I also think as a tank it probably feels terrible to lose any form of agency in Pug content because I've been there - I've played tank with some real sus healers before. I know what the prospect of losing your agency toward your survivability sounds like.
You will always see spike and one shot damage eventually yes. But I have to insist that this is a "you think you do, but you don't" situation. I see your point and you make it well. But I do not believe you really want your job to be any more difficult than it already is, and no matter what you think, having to worry about three others over four others is always going to be easier.
@heythereguysitsMetro I think you're correct AND incorrect in that assessment. I DO want healing to be more difficult, but in combination with more varied damage patterns. I don't think just making healing more difficult is good idea, if I was doing the same thing as now but just harder, I'd probably not have fun. I want to have fun using my spells, have some talent choices based on damage patterns rather than just having every healer spec for burst/triage out of necessity. I have way less fun every season literally eying everyone to keep them at max health all the time. I like playing with my resources and being able to judge on my own when healing's necessary, or when I can leave someone with a HoT and they'll be fine till the next damage event, etc. Basically more healing patterns and more time spent actually healing overall. I'm fine with healing people more and struggling if the damage isn't 100% -> 30% and they'll need to be 100% again in the next 3 seconds or a mob might charge them and kill them, etc. The affixes are still terrible, too. I don't have fun having to heal a prio debuff that'll kill someone in 3 ticks but also afflicted is up and my pug dps didn't grab their dispels so I end up healing one up. Just like I didn't have fun pinging explosives.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I agree with CAPSLOCKING, and think there are a couple of points being missed in all of this. First, reducing damage intake and shifting the damage patterns MUST go hand in hand with changing tank self-reliance. If tank self-reliance is changed while one-shot potential is easily found it will be very bad. Second, suggesting this is a "think you do but you don't" situation overlooks the fact that tanks being 100% self-reliant is a new-ish phenomenon in the history of the game. Before now tanks have always needed healing, and that's not a new idea. At the end of the day, a group is exactly that - a group. Tanks being 100% self-reliant turns the group into tank + four others rather than a group. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and concerns - nobody enjoys being nerfed but, to some extent, the hyperbole and dooming from some tanks is out of control to the point that I almost cannot watch these videos anymore. Joining the conversation rather than railing against change would be more productive.
Couple of thoughts while watching: 1. Lasher route and big pull is perfectly fine on first pull, the only one suffering due to accumulation of disorient swirlies really is the Fury Warr having to dodge while maintaining uptime. Doing this first allows all dps to blast cds as well as tank to have cheat death & cds up for it. Just dont stand in swirlies lol 2. Bird pull killing a dps happens all the time because of weird Z axis coding. Don't know exactly how BDK grabs aggro on 5 mobs approaching from Z axis differential but it can easily happen to miss 1-2 3. 200k dps on ST on a 10 is perfectly fine without lust idk what the monk is smoking 4. DPS dying to frontal while trying to "help" soak orbs on Vexamus is incredibly iconic So far this is a perfectly fine pug I'd just have a good laugh about, they're pacing 5. Monk running into the orb just sent me. 6. All dps dead and I could solo the boss since timer's fucked anyways - tank did nothing wrong, everyone else is blaming him for their shit. Been there, and this is exactly why I'm not pugging tank next season.
People don't want tank to be self-reliant... I have a feeling they'll be in for a rude awakening in 2 months when VDH aren't around to solo carry interrupt, dungeons have more stop/interrupt and healer have to heal them more.
That''s not a rude awakening, that's a welcome outcome. VHD (or any other tank) being a demigod is not healthy for the game .Part of the fun of playing a DPS/healer in dungeons is dealing with interrupts and crowd control, it's a big part of what separates the wheat from the chaff. The thing that makes M+ special is that it makes you master your entire toolkit... if I wanted to just bind all my keys to DPS keys and bash my head on the keyboard I'd raid.
@@brandoncomer6492 as long as you realize that these changes will lower your success rate. If you are saying you want to work harder and fail more when you deserve to, that's a noble statement. I think most players would disagree though. They are happy to be carried if it means more success.
@@brandoncomer6492 you got to be the only DPS who actually pay attention to kick and stop. Most of them find some branche/flag pole/hill to be rescued on top of, and ignore all mechanic.
Serious question. I just came back after long hiatus. I really want to tank, gdruid, but is it worth sinking my time into? Or another tank? Maybe I shouldn't care if I am having fun.
I know the horse has been beat on the mythic+ changes and tank changes. But I'm just disappointed that seemingly blizzard are making changes out of outrage from players who don't like mythic+ or tanks. Wild times. It's like mop remix style balancing where someone gets upset about something that doesn't actually affect them and then blizzard makes a change that doesn't even accomplish the end goal, but makes everyone more upset.
And also I saw an argument for these m+ changes that boiled down to "I don't want to do mechanics, I want big aoe pulls for big aoe damage". I thought of a creative solution that fixes that problem without changing m+ for the entire player base. Make island expeditions scale up to max level and reward current expansion currency. Then you can chain pull an entire island for big aoe damage with your 2 friends while you relax. And for those that also made the argument that it's too boring when you 1 shot mobs and can't do more damage - make Mythic islands also scale with ilvl so the mobs are always big target dummies. Problem solved.
i had a group that did the same in AD on Yazma was a +21 ( we knew we wasn't timing the key just trying to finish). They actually cheered me on while I solod the boss. The first 2 pulls I reset on the group's request. 3rd pull i ended up soloing from around 60%. Sadly that fight gets extremely easy solo
@@kayla9663 yazma is an exception in my eyes. Actually way way easier to kill it solo than with the group. I did it a ton on that boss and anyone who quibbled with me I ignored.
When I started playing world of Warcraft the tank job was to bind the mobs, the healer had to heal and the dps did dmg. Nobody was anything without the other. I came back in dragonflight and I can’t get used to what blizzard did to that groupdynamic. Tanks who do so much dmg and healing is so weird to me. And after 4 seasons active playing in m+ and raids I thing blizzard totally ruined it. Most of the tanks I had to play with have some sort of god complex, because nothing happens to them. They pull too much, they don’t care about the group and they leave if their fragile egos don’t get pampered. It’s hilarious to watch that. If they wouldn’t deal so much dmg and healing and wouldn’t survive nearly everything, I am pretty sure, certain kind of ppl wouldn’t play tank anymore. And that’s for good. I can not really understand how anyone think unbeatable tanks are a good idea. But I don’t think that this is enough. Dds should not have to much selfheal either. The Retri Paladin for example. Yeah it’s easy to play because of that, but compared to an ele shaman or boomkin way to much survivability. In the end I am not sure if blizzard can manage to balance the nerfs. And I also don’t think that people are willing (or able?) to put more effort in learning their classes. Maybe they will, if they have to. I remember this one video with the retri that did not know he could dispel the affix in a 17 - 20 key. That’s insane. It should not be possible to reach a 20 key without proper gaming.
You are basically just describing what design creep looks like after 20 years. Not a lot of good ways to tackle all this and even if you go play classic you will see tanks attempting to play this way and succeeding. Famously in 2019 classic launch the "tanks" were just full fury builds with no shields even on.
I always think like the tank has "prio" of soaking the orbs. If tanks move to an orb, I dont go near it. If tank aint moving towards an orb, its free to soak. Then no problems will happen.
In this particular situation there was no chance of timing the key after those silly avoidable deaths, however I have had tanks with more than 10 mins solo the last boss killing the timer. When asked why they would ruin any chance of timing the key their response was, "because I can". I've also had tanks pull so much they it was impossible to catch every interrupt or use stuns that the dps and healer are overwhelmed and die. Asking them again why they would do such a ridiculous pull, "Well I didn't die so clearly it's everyone's problem but mine". So yeah, I get why Blizzard wants to nerf tanks but I'm truly not a fan of it. I personally only main healers and I enjoy weaving heals and dps together not babysitting tanks. I'd rather use my heals for the dps. And honestly, just healing grows extremely boring after awhile.
I have been told that when you are in boss combat you can not leave the instance until its dead or reset at all. But I have never been on the other end of this, so I don't know. All I know is people leave the group all the time and their corpse is still stuck there. But I guess you are saying they have to do those three specific things in that order? I bet most players don't know that, because I certainly don't.
I think 8 minutes is enough to complete this key before the group fell apart. He is probably tilted and took the huff haha. I like the fact the dudes carried on with 4 people as well though to at least try and get it completed. I think then the end boss situation is a tough one to call. In this situation its going to take a long time to complete but if he does complete it then the key is over and everyone wins. If he doesn't make it then its a massive waste of time. Double edge sword but if he can kill it then why not do it. The time is over anyway so yea go for it haha I am on the tanks side for this one. I do believe lowering tank strength is a good thing though. As long as the mob damage profile is set to more of a sustain than it is now (which they have said it will be). As a healer main it just feels bad to see a tank doing 2 - 3 times my damage and equal or even more than that in some cases to my healing. As a tank alt when I do play it I feel unbelievably powerful compared to all other roles. I sometimes wonder why we even took a healer in the group to begin with.. I can self sustain, I can off-heal. As long as no one does something really stupid we can survive most of the game without a healer. I have no problem with tanks being stronger than other roles but I think right now it is too much of a discrepancy. Would just add at the end of this my opinion on the topic has nothing to do with this "holding people hostage" narrative. I was not even aware that was a thing.
I agree...at least in this situation. Why purposely die and "try again" only to have the monk die to something stupid, have the shaman stand in breath again and/or have the warrior pull aggro and end up right back to where you currently are (soloing at 80% boss)? The timer's done, so let him do as he wishes. If something whacko happened, then yeah, die and go agane, but this grp didn't seem like the brightest.
You can't though it very literally doesn't let you leave if others are in combat with a boss even if you leave the group. This has happened to me quite a few times. They are very literally totally unable to leave.
@@jambogamer-je2nf I have never experienced this myself but people tell me if you can't release due to boss combat it would kick you out either. But one guy says they just need to log off and come back after some time and it will move their body out. Who knows. Either way, they can't really leave easily.
Not sure how often this hostage situation happens to other ppl, but this is not the reason of the tank nerf for sure. Healers being bored 90% of the time, is the main reason, and Blizzard thinks by healing tanks it solves that issue (it wont... nobody wants to heal tanks, or tanks to rely on healers)
I think the scenario in this pug and the tank Nerfs are two separate issues. From a healer perspective ever since Legion, we’ve seen increasingly more of the healer role get embedded into the tank role and in dragonflight we saw that come to a head as tanks are largely responsible for their own survivability. The reality is that across-the-board tanks do not rely on healers and if a tank needs healing, healers do not have the tools to help them. Moreover as defensive creep has grown across-the-board. We’ve seen the role of healers diminish. I do think that developers tried to address this in dragonflight, but I don’t think they’ll be successful if they don’t look at how strong, the tank role has become. In my opinion, no player should be able to solo content. Otherwise it’s not group content. It’s just high-level solo content that most players can’t do. Moreover, as a player, I enjoy leveraging my abilities with my party members in order to defeat group content, it’s fun. I understand that pugs are a different beast altogether, but as a player, I like the idea of every role bringing something to the table. And it would be nice if healers Could be on equal footing with other roles.
@@Linknla well you said "no player should be able to solo content" so seems like that's in contrast with your first comment. Either way, as a tank you will always be able to solo somethings and others no so much. The reason mythic plus is what it is though, is the timer. Soloing it when it takes 3 hours is different than upgrading a key.
Haha I fully agree the decent thing to do would have been to reset it for them and I actually was going to but given that those guys were likely the reason the hunter left his own key in the first place I wasn’t all that bothered about their feelings, that on top of the healer acusing me of killing him with the frontal. Then there’s all the stuff the shaman started slating my dps and that he can do it way easier on his pally etc, they could have easily just acted reasonable and I wouldn’t have felt the need to ‘troll’ them if that’s what we’re calling it, That’s why I ressed the warrior in the end.
totally understand I've gotten sick of rude baddies and made them sit through a solo when they die at 95% to the first mechanic. When people keep blaming you it feels kinda good to show them "You guys are the issue, I can solo this place"
@@1pwm1992 ya well said honestly. Love the shaman saying how much better he is than you while he is eating frontals that haven't changed since season 1. I don't blame you at all.
Just check with the group before you go from 80%.... if it was 20% it would be no issue, but at 80% it is just tedious. Nothing to do with tank-OPness Just ask "Try or die?" and if the group leaves after you reset the fight you can still solo it if you want...
No one is going to want him to solo it from there, that's the problem. I commented on that in the video. There have been many times I can likely solo save and upgrade the key and people still tell me to not try. Some times you just need to do what you think is best and deal with the results after.
My speculation is that the tank nerfs have nothing to do directly with tanks being too strong actually or at least not entirely, this is why they are buffing healers at the same time, think about it, they just want to change the dynamic of the healers and dps, the dynamic of how the group interacts, something which is not gonna pan out in low skilled/knowledgeable people because, duh. Basically, this is just reinforcement of the same design they have about the thing called "use your f'ing defensives" because if the tank is weaker, you, no matter what other type you are either a DPS or a Healer, you will be, by indirect extent have to figure out ways to survive if the tank seems to be now straggling, you will be afraid more, and you will be trying to figure out more ways to not die, and what's that? Proper use of your defensives. ;) I am not saying i agree with their approach, i am just giving an explanation as to why they might be doing these tank changes.
Well they already gave their reasoning. Not really worried about the why's as much as the how's. Its clear, no matter what the "why" is, that they aren't hitting their mark.
I would do this as well, they're 100% going to leave and nobody in the group will get anything for the time spent. If you finish the boss you'll get a lesser reward, but still some crests/vault score/chance at loot. The monk's attitude did way more damage to wasting everyone's time than the DK did. The way that the shaman's ego got offended was too funny
To wipe or not to wipe? It depends. On boss HP, time of the season, etc, etc. I had mixed reactions to me soloing bosses, some people think it's cool, some don't care, some start flaming. Usually I try to solo the boss on any % health if 1) I don't believe my team can not die again 2) I need the dungeon done for one reason or another (item, vault, etc). Despite what the team might be saying in chat, if they die to mechanics over and over again, it's faster to kill the boss solo. Remember Court of Stars last boss before nerfs? If above is not the case, eh, whatever team wants, I can type between death strikes and ask
These tank changes are really dumb. And this along with the changes to M+ gearing makes me happy I haven't bought TWW yet. Like every discussion where people are saying "Tanks shouldn't be able to solo bosses." I reply with "Tanks shouldn't have to solo bosses." Like people are dying to silly stuff on every boss, they want you to wipe and then the second time around they all die again. I joke among my friends that those people are actually Blizzard devs.
See this is my argument as well. People complain that tanks shouldn't be able to do this or shouldn't be able to do that, but it's their own lack of skill and sucky gameplay that causes them to die, which results in their tank being the only one left alive. You are exactly right. Tanks wouldn't have to solo things if their group members didn't fucking suck so much lol
I really like that response "Tanks shouldn't have to solo bosses." That's really a genius response to it honestly. Because that's exactly what we have here. The other players FAILED the fight. That's not the tank's fault at all. So if he doesn't fail the fight, why should he be forced to stop playing his character to die sooner just for them? He shouldn't be, is the answer. And he shouldn't be nerfed just because he can do it.
ive generally found if they cant complete the key in time they will moan and flame, but if you as tank grab it in time they re quite happy to let ya...
I remember doing Siege of Orgrimmar lfr back in MoP. One of the early (maybe first) bosses was some big water elemental type thing. It was a very soloable boss and multiple times I had people continue to solo a "failed" attempt. Think Warlock was the most capable with pet tanking but I remember a SP doing it aswell. I always thought it was cool and I doubt it's bannable.
Immerseus or whatever, yeah warlocks were nutty then so they could def solo it. I had an almost full raid wipe on the lfr throne of thunder eyeboss back in mop and the blood dk solo'd it after 15 minutes, that's what inspired me to try blood dk after that lol
The tank nerfs are an ATTEMPT to address this, but it is a failed attempt. Blizzard needs to stop using healing and mitigation as the same thing for one. This of course really hurts blood dks without MAJOR changes, and the refusal to make that change I think is a prime reason why they can't get it right. The round block just won't fit in that square hole. To get this right, they probably also need to make tanking more about mob and aggro management than incoming damage management, otherwise they will always end up right back where we are now, trying to avoid the absurd one shots or equally absurd pull sizes. To counter your argument that tanks aren't OP, the mechanics that killed the people in this fight, the tank would have not only survived, but barely have noticed, and not even need the services of a healer to correct it. The gap between tanks and other roles has gotten absurdly large. But you're also right, that doesn't take away the fails of the other players getting themselves dead and then blaming the tank for it.
That's not really a valid counter, because they aren't meant to do more damage to tanks than to anyone else, and tanks just have more health. DPS and Healers don't really have access to ways to improve their health, but if say a Frost DK some how had the same health as a Blood DK, he would survive those in that same way.
@@heythereguysitsMetro The extra health of a tank I agree with. It is the ability to deal with the repercussions themself that is the problem. You're right that DPS and healers don't have access to ways to improve their health. That's the argument that they are OP right there. Take Kop's video you reviewed just the other day. The tank lost aggro for a split second and ONE hit killed Kop. Damage that wasn't even noticeable on a tank, was instantly fatal to Kop. Yet the tank can also self heal themselves and do significant DPS? That's the issue. If we look at the holy trinity model as the ideal and asked "how much of each does class get?" the current way things work, tank classes get much more damage and healing, than the damage and healing get in the way of tanking. This is especially bad when it comes to self healing and why Blizzard is TRYING to fix that, but without properly changing the disparate healing mechanics of tanks. I think Blizzard is doomed to failure if they don't. As I said, it will either be the huge spike damage we saw recently, or relegating the healer to just healing the DPS we have seen previously. It is impossible to balance because Blizzard has to balance self heals, which don't scale, with actual mitigation, which does scale. Whatever tank sits in the sweet spot of getting the most out of both is going to be the meta tank.
@@sirdiealott ya fair enough. I respect your position. I just look at this as the way the game works and honestly has worked for a long time. They can adjust it but there is not ever going to be a day where tanks can get meleeded and survive but so can DPS without reworking how armor and all stats work in my eyes.
So I main a Rogue. However, my main alt, which is always just as geared as my rogue, and i usually push further in keys, is always a tank. Heres my opinion on this video. When everyone goes down the logical decision for a tank to make is, "If i solo this, will we still time it?" The clear answer this DK should have came to, was No. There was not nearly enough time, especially in a 10, on tyrannical, while hes only doing 75k ST dps. Now i understand, looking at how much damage the DPS did in the 1 min they were alive, there was no way they were going to time it even if he did die. So then why is he still fighting the boss? There are many reasons people would want him to stop, in higher keys, people often dont want a "Failed key" showing up as your highest, so you would choose not to finish the run when it is 100% dead. However, it sounds like his group wanted to go again. The key is dead. If they want to finish and get loot, he should have died, there is absolutely no point in continuing to solo 70% of this bosses health at this point. It is just a massive waste of time for everyone involved. ---- And in reference to the tank nerf question, i think nerfing tanks is completely absurd. Should a tank be able to finish this boss solo? Yes. But its going to take forever, which is why any decent person, would not make everyone watch this for 10-15 min.
@@adianm6691 at the end of the day it's his choice. You have your opinions and that's fine. But he isn't doing anything wrong by continuing on. It's rude, yes. But so we're they.
It was a 4 man already and the other players were playing bad and could trigger leave at anytime forcing the dungeon to close. Tank looked like he wanted vault credit for that run , and did not trust them enough to not leave and void the run. I am sure if the tank trusted them he would let them try again , but he just didn't want to risk his vault slot after having spent already up to 1 hour forming and then doing the dungeon. I can't fault the tank on this one. If the group was intact , all 5 members , there was 0 or little tilting / trolling and the other players all said in chat they wanted to go again , then it would be the tanks fault.
They dont need to nerf tanks, maybe just lower there damage by 50%+ and add threat to them. Tanks should have lower damage then healers but not die to damage.
@@Ohpeaches87 lower than healers!? That is unlikely to ever happen simply because healers do not use a DPS spell every global. Tanks are constantly dealing damage so they will always be higher.
They would of cleared it too if people just got off the DPS chart monitoring. A comment coming from a healer too is pretty odd to me. If they were wiping constantly or failing DPS checks then maybe its okay to make a less aggressive comment. But DPS meters and "meta" lists have really damage the social contract for some M+ players and it shows here. Once you go down to 4 people, who cares if you time or not, if a tank solo the last boss or what happens - the extra comments are unnecessary.
I understand if the boss was already at 20% or less and there is enough time to finish it. There have been some fights where the boss was so much easier after everyone else was dead. On the regular, I would rather finish as a team.
I believe you can disable the ping system they added in DF. That's my only guess for the Shamans comment, DK just has it disabled so can't see it in replay. At this point in the xpac/season is there really any reason to complete a untimed 10 especially when you are trying to 4man it. TBH if they were all complaining about me trying to solo it and I died, I am just leaving the key anyway. Are they not allowed to leave the group, I know they can't release. IDK even if I was pissed at someone for doing something like this, I am just getting up and walking away for a bit, get some water w/e.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I guess just in my mind I would rather just go fast and do aggressive pulls in 8s if I'm just trying to get more gear/crests, instead of trying to repeat doing a boss that we already failed.
@@cheeks684 So you'd rather leave this key then join another to get gear rather than stay for another 10 minutes and finish this one for the same gear haha? Never really understood these comments, and its not just who who thinks this way! There is no reason you can't do both progression and gearing at the same time. The only thing that makes that difficult is leaver culture.
If he was tanking my dungeon and we already failed the key anyway, I'd just be like "Sweet, lets see if he can actually solo this boss." Just for the fun of it, I guess.
I play mainly tanks and on high keys and with pugs and just want to drop an advice: ignore them all. The guys who flames, are always the bad player. It will not help you or the others to describe why they are bad. But ofc, trying to solo a boss as tank is not clever. Just reset and try again or leave grp.
8:53 okay I paused it, and seeing the monk's gameplay so far, I predict he will be the first to die. I have no clue how mw monk works but also going into a Tyran boss with only 20% mana is a bit sus to me but maybe monks are fine without mana idk. Oh look who died first .. can't say I'm surprised.. - I feel conflicted about his decision to solo the boss.. The monk was clearly an idiot but deciding to solo it from 80% making them wait 10+ minutes is not okay unless they agree to it, but I know they would have just left and not stay to finish so I can't really blame him for wanting to finish it like this. I think the tank nerfs are not necessary I never felt useless as a healer in that regard, if a tank could self sustain easily I welcomed it because it meant I can contribute more in other ways as a healer and if they couldn't (cuz they are learning the spec, low gear, or just bad etc.) then that was fine too. I had several occasions where the last 20% or less was finished by the tank and I really didn't mind I never thought ah this is op it should be nerfed.
@@heythereguysitsMetroOr maybe this was his way of punishing them for being careless and dying too many times of their own fault.(i played with warlock, dk, shaman, hunter)
Man for me the dk and paladin change is massive compared to the other tanks got they barely touch them if they are going to nerf witch i dont agree with at least try to be more balanced with the tunning to other specs
@@hejkasolan3155 They're not done tuning by far. I get their intention though. But i'm also pretty sure they will not get it done in a sensible way. As always it will be a complete clownshow on launch and a couple of weeks after.
@@phatal4573 it may or it may not. i'm merely stating what their intentions are. it's infinitely more difficult to control packs in tww beta right now. I don't see anyone able to do 4-6 pack pulls with these tank changes.
i personally still don't believe that good tanks should be able to realistically survive against a boss forever solo, if current balancing is (completely made up numbers) say a good tank can solo forever and a bad tank can solo for 5 mins then i think it should be a good tank can solo for 5 mins and a bad tank for 1 minute
That's not really something you'd ever be able to design intentionally. You'd need what, a scaling damage buff to exist whenever the tank is alone or something? Or create some resources like mana that doesn't recover until you finish the boss?
I agree with Metro on this one. If the tank wanted to fight the boss solo, he should have wiped, told them he wanted to solo it, but let them go free. Not giving them that choice is disrespecting their time.
idc if a tank can solo a boss because its countered by how much time it takes to do it. Depending on boss %, a lot of the time it wont be worth for the tank to solo.
This was 100% a "oh youre gonna tell me what i can and cant do?? Ill show you" Was the tank in the right? No. It started as a judgement call and he got pushed into an ego battle. Now on the other hand "being held hostage"? Brother its a game, just log out for 10 minutes jfc
The only role that players with egos at +10s ( old +20s) are good at is the victim role. Unfortunately its only going to get worst and more toxic in pugs with tank nerfs because some players dont read patch notes. Idk how anyone can blame the BDK at all when the rest of the party says confidently “We finish” “4 is np” then proceed to die to easy mechanics, play victim and, be unjustifiably toxic. Yes the tank coulda reset but other players should not be dying to easy mechanics. This is the last boss of Algethar on a +10 one of the easiest DF bosses so that says a lot.
You should definitely wipe it even though its their fault that they died. Their frustration is super justified. That being said if people want tank nerfs because of something like this, its not a player power problem its just a player problem
You should consider the curiosity for sure. Can always just solo it from 100 if they want to leave. But their frustration should come with their own play first and foremost. If they took credit for being dead there it might be a different situation.
i don't think the tank was wrong in this example. my argument for nerfing tanks only extends to placing them back into the position of having to rely on the team around them. as the tank role stands now, the tank can move through an instance with very little regard for the other four players. it makes for a bad experience. more than once i've told a tank at the end of the instance: If your ability ever catches up with your ego, you will be a fine tank.
@@heythereguysitsMetro you are tanking very high keys, and my experience has been that once you hit around +10 teamwork becomes more important. keys lower than 10, however, are terrible and most often because of bigheaded tanks.
@@olddrunkgamer All I can say is if you are running into that sort of behavior, record the runs and send them in for review. Happy to expose bad behavior. I do get a lot of runs that are sub 10, and honestly never really see bigheaded tanks that are actually impacting a keys successrate. But I admit since I'm a tank, a lot of the runs are also tanks that are submitted.
The issue isn't the tanks. The issue is players punching above their weight in key levels they have no business being in. Also the shaman getting hit by the breath twice in a row is actually griefing lol
I think I solved the mystery here. Healer mains want tanks nerfed so they have an excuse to not have to dps anymore. They just want to heal and then stand afk while no outgoing damage is happening.
@@heythereguysitsMetro no one should be able to solo (in relevant content) a boss for that long. It would be better if a bad tank could survive solo for a modest amount of time, an average tank for a bit longer, and a good tank for quite a lot longer. Allow for more skill expression. Also, if a healer can safely ignore 20% of the team, the other folks have to take more damage to try to challenge the healers. If the healer has to spend a little time on the tank, everyone else doesn't need to take as much. Spread the responsibility around. I don't think anyone is advocating for a Classic model where the healer has to blast the tank with constant heals, but the current model is a bit too far from that.
@@drh255 only a blood dk would be able to solo for this long and again that's just how they work. Hard to have his conversation uniformly for all 6 tanks so I'll just leave it there for now.
Can't they just leave party? I also believe Blizz has a "I'm stuck" self-service on a timer if leaving party does not work. Poor them being held hostages. If it wasn't for the comical deaths I would blame the DK for not resetting. Dying stupidly on last boss in AA which is probably the easiest boss in DF is telling in itself.
I don't believe so. I have been told that if you are in boss combat you can not release or leave the group until it's over. So if it takes hours you are stuck. I don't know for sure.
I did this stuff in ataldazar is s3 in keys when we couldnt time it, bc pugs couldnt handle yazma, so atleast i can get my loot. In keys when we can still time i would die and try again. In a situation like in this video i would kill the boss solo and put this guys in ignore list. But to be fair i think the spot that he choose for tanking was really bad, and its the main reason why his party died.
Tank nerfs aren't justified, what's the point, he can solo it, but it'll take like 10 minutes to do so. It's not like he can solo the dungeon in time. Also, if I'm not mistaken, they could've left the group and just be teleported to the graveyard ( not totally sure on this, correct me if I'm wrong).
I would expect a 4 man group like this one, with the deaths shown, to give up if the tank actually did reset it. In fact, this late into the season (now over) I wouldn’t trust them to try again. Especially since the flaming AND these mistakes are clear signs of players who lack sophisticated plan of attack for content like this. Sounds condescending, but it is what it is. If this was my Blood Death Knight, all things considered, their time and my time are two different things. If I let them leave, then that’s one less completed key. If I “hostage take” I guarantee a completed key and push on. As far as I am concerned, he made the competitive choice.
Yup I totally agree with this assessment. One thing to add though is allowing them to leave then just solo it from 100 afterwards. But ya in general you are spot on.
I'm all for solo'ing a boss when the party wipes, but it comes down to whether its going to be faster to solo or wipe and try again. Sorry, but solo'ing a 10 tyrannical boss from 70% is a bit egregious.
No that's not all it comes down to. There is also the likelihood of there actually being a second pull on it at all. That is a very low chance in the game now-a-days. If everyone leaves after you wipe for them, then its actually faster to just solo it from 70 than it is to then solo it from 100 after they leave.
This is what I’ve complained about in the past about being a tank. You can do absolutely nothing wrong and you’ll get flamed for dps dying from frontals, swirlies and cones. Just because we take hits from NPCs all the time doesn’t mean we want to tank all your hurtful comments too
I typically I agree with all that is said here but in this instance the tank is definitely holding them “hostage”, the chances are they were more than willing to go again and down it purely because of sunk cost. I’ve been the tank in this situation and done it purely to spite them, so I know that’s kind of what is happening here. Did they make mistakes. Yeah, no doubt they shouldn’t have died or flamed but I think choosing to do this is probably making a right from two wrongs. Even if they ressed and they left he could still do this same thing plus 20% hp which would of been about 5m more
Also I just realised that the people walking into orbs may be them trying to get a stacking buff that it gives. Each orb gives you 5% dmg done with a max of 15%, though somehow I doubt they were fully planning it
@@zoedawn7125 ya it's a spite thing once they start flaming. He admits this. I would rather see him wipe and if they leave just solo from 100. But honestly the whole use of the word "hostage" is so embarrassing I would probably immediately disregard their thoughts myself. Way over dramatic over something they themselves caused.
If your group wants you to try and solo it after they die then that seems fine but otherwise you should wipe unless the boss is like very nearly dead. I'm playing this game to have fun and not being able to leave and being completely totally STUCK, literally forced to do nothing but watch and wait while others are playing is actually the worst. I would also add that person to my ignore list actually. I'm not playing this game to have the best chance at upgrading a key or whatever, I'm trying to have fun and watching someone else play when I can't leave and have super limited hours of the day to play is actually the worst. I can only play for a little while and if I'm spending more than like a minute tops maybe watching someone else play while I can not do anything else at all is just infuriating. IMO it's a bad choice to not allow people to just leave the group and teleport out of the area when "others in your group are in combat" because literally being stuck with no way to leave a obnoxious group is actually just awful for no reason. I know they don't want people gaming the system or whatever but forcing people to stay there until everyone dies or the guy does finally kill the boss is just the worst choice. I've had multiple occasions where the group was so awful I full on closed the game because I couldn't get away from them and they wouldn't wipe for way longer than was reasonable. A key is literally not worth that much fuss and frustration.
I will say the monk and others could have also been nicer about it since the Tank seems to have not known that the wipe was a better option? idk it's a 10 they all should have been better and nicer lmao
What you are describing is the difference in reasons to play and expectations. If the tank is playing for a different reason than you, that is not invalid. Best way to handle it is not pug. Or just chill out and roll with the punches.
Well its not really a matter of opinion haha. This is 100 percent never going to result in a ban. If anything, they would be banned sooner for the chat than the gameplay.
If I had this monk. I would have done the same as this tank. But I would be explaining that I was soloing it because of him, being a rude prick, blaming tank for following him when the tank was obviously going for the orb. I have no issue being a dick to someone who is more of a dick.
just my 2 cents: I play both tanks and healers. I understand that it's a lot of fun to have the responsibility and the opportunity to help improve the situation alone. I enjoy it too. But when I play healer I feel completely different, I don't feel so important. Tanks that heal more than me, where that's my job, it seems like I'm just running behind and trying to keep the dd's alive, it's so frustrating. As a healer, I occasionally wonder how tanks would think if dd's could withstand more damage than tanks. It's so depressing after a hard fight as a healer to see that tanks heal more. The problem at the moment is the inequality of responsibility in the group, tanks don't want to hand over responsibility to players, that would make them more dependent on others, but other roles in the group want to feel just as important. I don't think nerfing the tanks so that they get more damage is the solution. I would rather do something like, get less damage, but drastically reduce self sustain.
This is all in your head. I can not upgrade a key alone as the tank. I need DPS with me, and they need you. If you are worried about tanks healing more than you, turn off details. These are simply not issues with WoW but with perception.
Yes, this. I don't think Blizz ever meant for the orbs mechanic on Vex to be a 'tank picks up all the orbs' mechanic. I think it was always meant to be a collaborative effort where the healers and DPS with a dispel need to pay attention and use them wisely and the DPS need to be attentive enough to move out of the ground effect that spawns under them and be aware enough to recognize if they're still debuffed and can't pick up another orb themselves yet. It IS more challenging to play it that way, but if the tank is able to usurp all of that load onto himself because their massive health pool, DR, and regen trivialize the mechanic that doesn't make them a 'better' or more selfless player for doing so. It seems like a lot of M+ tanks are losing sight of that.
I’m ngl but I’d be quite annoyed too if the tank decided to try to solo the boss when it still had a decent amount of health left. I wouldn’t have acted the way these assholes did about it, however.
The tank was the one that was griefed. The other players played like garbage through the entire dungeon. I can't imagine getting upset at the tank when they were the only one who didn't die to easy mechanics.
@@heythereguysitsMetro well I suppose everyone kind of griefed. The tank probably should have wiped quickly and reset, but the other players were being toxic beforehand so it's hard to have much sympathy for them.
@@jeffryb7883 ya that's the way I feel about it too. At the end of the day no one "greifed" anyone in my eyes though. One player just played to their best of ability and was rude in the way that people were asking to stop and he didn't want to. That's very different than greifing because they all signed up to the dungeon willingly.
Can't blame any of that on the tank, people got killed by their own mistakes. But trying so solo it at 80% id just wipe it, if it was like 40ish or so then hey go for it if had enough time. I Been playing this game as holy pally off and on since BC, and I dont remember a time when you didn't want a strong tank. The longer they can stay alive and more shit they can soak up the better. Makes life way eaiser. It's kinda funny people complain about tank being to strong they don't feel needed, and also complain tank to weak and take to much dmg. It's either one side or the other. I'll take a strong tank any day, less stuff I have to worry about.
Even though I’m a toxic player my self, I find myself siding with the tank on this one. Why didn’t those folks just leave when they thought it was all over? Instead, they stay dead and blame the tank. Are these people just oblivious or something?
Its not that easy. When you are in boss combat you can't actually release and since you can't release you can't leave the instance. Some one posted a way to get out of this situation, but its kinda complicated so I imagine most players don't know of it. Seems like you are also one of the players, and so am I haha
Maybe they shouldn’t have fuckin died to a +10 boss in the first place. Kinda weird takes in the beginning though, aa is insanely tight timer and doing anything but all the lashers in the first pull, ideally with the sentry on the platform, would be hard trolling.
Insanely tight!? You should try my route then haha. This is the second easiest dungeon and its really not close in my eyes. Upgraded on both 15 fort and tyran with plenty of time to spare!
That’s probably because you’re doing 15s. Doing anything but snapping all the lashers to the sentry and then over to the birds when sentry dies is not going to time these 20s and 21s. I’m sorry, but I highly doubt your route is faster.
@@Magiczwow Yes, that's exactly why. You can pretend you are doing 21s all you like, but if you are actually trying to compare the timer and strategies from a 21 and a 10 I think you have something seriously wrong with you. Is that an ego thing? I imagine anyone who actually does a 21 knows how vastly different that is from what I am talking about and what I am showing in this video.
@@heythereguysitsMetro What? I was simply commenting on that splitting the first pull ever, is silly, and the fact that you said the timer is lenient, which it is not in comparison to most other dungeons?
@@Magiczwow It absolutely IS lenient in the key levels we are discussing here. You see how they wipe to the first pack, have a hunter doing half the dps of another, and nearly upgrade it with 4 people right?
No it's not and it shouldn't be why people want tanks to be nerfed but he was being an asshole. In the time it took him to kill that boss you could have cleared the whole dungeon with a new group.
i mean this is griefing making a 3 min boss fight into 15 mins one on purpose not just tilts the players but also makes a negative remark on the RIO page if some one looking up you up overtiming by 20 mins
That is not a valid thing to look at because it doesn't show the actual disbands, only finished keys. Those count way more than one key being over time when they have to finish it with 4 players, but aren't shown. Anyone doing that is not intelligent, and as such their opinion would not matter.
Tanks are too powerful wich make playing a dps basically playing some kind of moving target dummy simulator. But thats just half of the story. The dungeon design is flawd aswell right now. Bring back the days when actually ccing was meaningful in stead of these massive big pull run like crazy and feed the meters kind of gameplay. People don't play tank because they don't want the sole responsibility in a dungeon. I remember playing a mage or a hunter and actually doing good cc was worth something. Tank dies - you can still survive by kiting and cc'ng. Those days are practically gone. O and I main Blood DK - and from a tank perspective I dont have an issue with my own power. Its fun to be powerful. And with current dungeons design its logical.
@@heythereguysitsMetro that's kind of a fixed mindset you got going on there bud ^^ it very well could, and maybe should. The question mostly is: do people want it? Or more accurate: does Blizzard want it?
@@sjogum they already tried it multiple times man. It doesn't work. If the timer didn't exist it would be easier to accomplish but you just can't take the time to fight one mob after a full pack dies and be efficient.
Who's keeping them there? The loot? They won't run back and kill in 2 minutes. Key's done, someone else's key, so either leave or tab out and watch a video. You literally just go afk for a chance at loot. They're just pissy and looking for a reason to get mad, as a lot of online gamers do.
tbh, sure we tanks are really strong and had to be nerfed, but most of the damage in dungeons is actually just to high and 80% of the healer would stop playing during df when they had a 5th target to heal. to his situation, this guys arent really good specially the monk was stupid af and had no clue what he was talking about. i mean he flamed the tank for his own movement and faults.
Ya that monk really makes a fool out of himself. If it was the shaman doing that I would have just been bashing that dude the whole time. But at least he was mostly quiet afterwards.
I remember finishing a +8 tyrannical 3rd boss in Halls of Infusion by myself on my prot warrior alt, after everyone else died to mechanical mistakes. I solo'd her down from 25% hp and even that was hard. People don't realize the patience and precise cooldown rotation required to pull something like that off. It's also not as though the tank is going to solo a boss and save the key at 3 or less minutes remaining, because of the amount of time it takes. People just crying for no reason as usual.
@@Thematicz warrior is certainly more effort I'm sure. There have been many times I have solo saved a key that would have been an upgrade only if I succeeded though tbh. It was really common in atal dazar because of how hard the last boss was but how easy the timer was.
If the healer can't keep the group up due to errors anyway, what will the outcome of nerfing the Tank be? The healers will be under much more pressure and fail. The Deeps on this run are flaming the Tank because THEY failed the mechanics. I think dungeons were much more difficult and interesting when you had to CC, and single pull mobs etc. Most of the time now it's like a speed run; boring AF.
@@heythereguysitsMetroyeah I know. In M+, it’s a speed run, I get it. I’m harkening back to the days when Heroic Dungeons needed strategy, and cooperative team play. Completing an Heroic dungeon used to be an achievement 😂😂😂
@@stevenfairclough5745 You might just be remembering being a noob. Mythic+ still requires strategy and cooperative team play, but it also requires speed. Speed is actually an inevitable fact of PVE. Eventually, you do stuff enough that you don't care about just finishing it anymore, but finishing it fast. You can see people do this in every version of wow ever.
The argument I've heard a lot of dps and healers make is that when tanks are "Immortal" it makes it impossible for other roles to survive. Initially I was confused because damage intended for tanks doesn't apply to other roles. It took a long time to sus out that they were referring to tanks over pulling and mobs with aoe or random taget damage overlapping. Explaining to them that that was a skill issue on the part of those tanks and an issue with blizzard dungeon design and not a reason to nerf tanks was a lost cause.
@@jordangrant1551 yup that's exactly right. It's not a flaw with tanks, it's a flaw with dungeon design, is how I have heard others break through that argument.
High rateing healer here 3k plus I want tanks nerfed because I almost never ever have to interact with a tank to keep them alive it doesn't even really feel like they are a part of the team I want tanks to have to rely more on there team I want more teamwork and synergy and working together atm it just feels like tank can run in and do what ever they want and need zero help from dps or a healer to stay alive it's boring
@@knightnight2272 I can see that for sure. Sadly you getting what you wish for just makes your job harder and your success rate lower. You sure you want that?
Honestly I from what I've seen from tanks playing the nerfs not as bad as people are saying my friend who I duo keys with seems to be just fine the main diffrence atleast from what we can tell now is he needs to occasionally tell me on pulls hey pain supp me or hey life grip me so I can kite and I've been enjoying it more the tank relying on his teammates is more enjoyable and less like I'm playing with a bot
@@knightnight2272 Okay, well first of all yes the changes blizzard implemented did not accomplish their goal at all and tanks are still very self reliant. So backing this up then, are you wanting them to go further? Or just a small step towards the direction of needing a healer was all you wanted anyway? My question initially was, in a theoretical landscape where tanks can never survive without outside healing, your successrate will plummet, so are you sure you want that?
What I'm wanting for then to do is bring back class utility add ways where dps can help the tank survive and where healers can also help tank survive I think one of the best examples I can give was during shadow lands there was a engineering dummy people where dropping so tanks could back off and get a breather stuff like that I think is much better for the games health other then going into a key no one talks no team work just face roll and leave
personally i think it's not a matter whether you can solo a boss as a tank or not but i find it annoying just watching and doing nothing if it is a long fight ... just annoying and boring! I wouldn't report him though!
Unfortunately this sort of "x class/role is stronger than mine pls nerf" mentality is all to common in the playerbase fostered by Blizzards willingness to swing the nerf bat and unwillingness to buff underperforming classes unless the gap is above 15% (which I believe is their accepted threshold for maximum difference in top vs bottom performing class but may be a bit off on the exact number) I would say you're absolutely correct in your statement that this tank didn't really do anything wrong IF the boss wasn't at 80% hp when he ended up being solo, if this was a premade and/or the other players agreed to let him solo I'd understand it but when the group asks to just wipe (and especially if they want to try again) I think it's fair to call this a griefing and even a hostage situation as resetting the boss and going again with four players is always going to be faster than the tank trying to solo the boss above 40% hp let alone 80%. Now if the group just wanted to leave I don't think there is anything stopping them from leaving the group and getting ported out cause they no longer belong to the group tied to the instance (granted it takes a minute or so to kick you as grace period in case you aren't meaning to leave group) Personally I only like to solo try bosses if I believe that either A: I can time a key that would otherwise deplete or B: Finishing the boss solo would always be faster than resetting regardless of if the key depletes or not. Granted I sometimes enjoy wasting 45 minutes soloing a world boss for shits and giggles but that's me wasting my own time and doesn't affect anyone unless they're brave enough to try and help me :P
Few things. No they can't leave while some one is in boss combat. Second, absolutely not a greifing situation no. The tank is not required to fail just because others already did and are asking him too. He is rude by not doing so, but the tanks job isn't to fold like a domino and be at the beck and call of the group as soon as they make a mistake. In no way is this greifing and in no way are they hostages because he isn't doing it to exploit them. He is doing it for the same reason they all entered the key. To finish the dungeon. I like your optimism but one guy already left when the key was still timeable lol... These guys aren't staying for another pull. All that being said I think the right thing to do is wipe and let them leave then solo it from 100 if you want.
@heythereguysitsMetro I was fairly certain that even in boss battle if you leave the party it will start the auto instance kick timer as you're not in the instance group anymore. I have no actual proof it works but I seem to remember it working this way but memory is a fickle thing I suppose :P His intentions matter less than his actions in this case. If they can't exit the situation (without leaving the game or switching characters) they're literally stuck there waiting until the tank is done, sure technically they are free to get up and go afk but they can't play their character until the boss fight is over one way or the other which makes those characters hostages to the tanks whims. I was not being positive on the reset thing I was simply commenting on the fact at least one guy in the group asked for a wipe to try again and no one seemed to disagree with that request in the group. Way I see it it's possible the warrior only left because the tank was being selfish but we will never know whether they could have tried again as four and it doesn't really matter either way. At the end of the day this is a co-op based game mode where you are expected to work together with a group even if all to often we have to pick up someones slack in the group it's still supposed to be a team effort and the tanks actions here are ruining the fun of the game for the rest of the group which is the definition of griefing. That being said I don't think he deserves a report or a penalty as it's not like he kept them stuck for shits and giggles and if we start punishing every minor infraction then 80% (number made up don't quote me on this) of the playerbase would be penalised
@@madDjakni I've been told you can not leave at all, but who knows for sure. Never been in this situation obviously. Also, you continue to confuse greifing for being rude. Just because they want something, does not mean because he wants something else is breaking some kind of rule.
The DPS are Dough headed simpletons under the illusion they are pro due to the saturated self-induced intoxication of them selves. The reality is, we Tanks carry so many groups. If I do 10 dungeons at +10. I would say around 3 of those groups MIGHT be a great group where everyone knows what to do, and can survive as well. But 7 out of that 10? I carry them. 100%. I carry them completely. People who don't tank, or who want you to believe they're that much better than you would have you believe tanking is no more difficult than a DPS. it's simply not true. It isn't. Tanks follow DPS rotations just as well, including shuffling defensives that need to be planned around. Tactics, pathing, positioning, and the perpetual baby sitting of other players. People are going to be so mad when they realise how much they actually sucks, when tanks can't carry them anymore.
Coming on quite strong, but I have to say I agree. I think its even worse than how you lay it out though. I would really say 100 percent of all groups at 10 are simply getting carried one way or another, but not always JUST by the tank. There is NEVER a run of a 10 that I say all 5 players perform optimally, and that's why they are at the 10 range still. But ya, I totally agree. If they ever had to work even harder, they would just crumble. You can see this clear as day how many times people die to threat. They clearly aren't prepared to do ANYTHING other than monitor their DPS output, and this is why it seems to me that they think they are successful. They think being top of three DPS in a M+ that they upgraded means they are good players. Its a trap, and it kills progression long term.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I agree completely. Couldn't say it any better really. What amazes me the most is when I watch someone like in this video get themselves killed. And they blame me on spot. The most toxic player is the one who THINKS he knows how to play and tries to tell others what to do only to keep getting himself killed and blame it on healer or me. hahaha. From what I've played in Beta it's going to be a total shit show.
@@TheRandomDude-qy1ev Yup, and that type of player is everywhere in wow now. Its really quite scary! Doing my best to educate and push back on this behavior but its slow-goings.
"Think isn't a flex, I can do this on my Paladin"
Couldn't dodge either of those 2 frontals though, could you?
rofl ya for real...
Plain and simple, tank power in this clip has nothing to do with success or failure. The key was destroyed by every other players' bad choices/movement/casting instead of moving/etc. If you are calling for a different spec to be nerfed or buffed to offset your own poor performance, you are intentionally harming the game. Blizzard needs to review clips posted and analyzed by actual good players before making huge changes. I know I am not a great player, just average. Therefore, I tolerate rude complaints against me, and learn from them, even if the delivery is harsh. I can't get better if I don't listen to legit advice. Also, if I see someone struggling, I will help them learn, so that they know how they can improve for future play. Thanks for the continued guidance to help us all be better pug players.
Good reasoning! Thanks!
I agree. Thank you.
Heard this from multiple tanks, but dps who snipe the orb a tank is clearly going for are very annoying
especially if you pop a CD for it and now you just wasted it
@@quintit eh they all have to be soaked. Tank should get the ones nearest and that's that in my book.
It's annoying because then they blame you for aiming the frontal at them. LOL
@drlapu im a tank and this. Just this. Idc if someone gets the orb but be aware of whats happening if you do
80% Boss, just Wipe it.
agreed
Ngl they would have more then likely left. Was their own fault they all died within a minute of the fight.
@@morningglory2129 probably but he can just solo from 100 percent if they do
@@morningglory2129 he could have still soloed the boss from 100% if they did. Him continuing against their wishes was the wrong thing to do.
A more healthy way to approach this is for the tank to simply ask the party if they want them to finish. I've received both answers in the past, but always honor the wishes of the party on it. It's not fun to watch from the floor, but it's also not fun to continue wiping on a boss over and over. In this instance, it was clear the party would have preferred a reset.
Ya realistically this is cut and dry.
Normally they would leave after this wipe, but it doesn't matter because the boss can still be soloed from 100 percent.
In other cases, its harder to say, because solo saving from say 10 percent might still take a while, and if you asked others they might SAY they want to try again, but all it takes is 1 to leave.
If its from 10 percent, I do it even if they don't want me to.
If its from 80 percent, just wipe and let them leave if they want, or pull again if not.
At worst, you solo it from 100 percent. Not much of a difference.
@@heythereguysitsMetro i think if the other 3 guys leave ( when boss is not pulled ) , and the tank still wants to clear the dungeon for vault credit , it will start to auto close in 1 min.
@@DietcokeHD1 ya idk honestly.
To be fair, when I'm healing I do kinda want the ideal situation that Blizz laid out. I would LIKE tanks to take more damage, not be able to heal it all and health pools to not be as spikey - so as a healer, I DO have to work harder at healing. Right now, it's a race for the opposite most the time. I'm really not worried about tank health ever, I'm only worried about unavoidable group damage, and how many damage GCDs I can fit in while still healing it.
This leaves healers in a spot where a lot of our kit isn't really that useful. Shamans only hit healing wave when it's mega juiced and will cleave with primordial. Priests just never hit the heal button, opting for flash to heal the minor damage faster. A lot of our effective HPS is really just not ever utilized because our maintenance healing is just worthless because damage is all spikey.
Blizzard has repeatedly buffed sources of passive healing or centered entire tier sets around it... For example, Priest renew got tacked onto a bunch of stuff, holy got a tier all around prayer of mending in S2, etc. They're always pretty terrible. There's a ton of unused talents in every tree. Who tf is ever going to use lightwell in a dungeon? It procs at 50% and brings you to like 55, and if anything hits a dps they're gonna lose 60. Shaman's earthliving hadn't seen the light of day, there's a TON of druid talents in the same boat, etc, etc. Because there is only one healing pattern - burst - and the rule in high key is basically "keep everyone at 100, or they might get oneshot""
It's like the healer version of playing DoT classes in a M0 key with some burst DPS. You end up just not utilizing most your kit, instead opting for whatever does the most upfront.
The funnest fights in DF on healer were those with consistent damage. Halls of Infusion's third boss was a ton of fun as a healer until it got to a super high key level where it once again became about spike damage and triage.
So if they COULD get tanks to a point where they need our maintenance healing, and sometimes need a focus heal but their health isn't bouncing between 100 and 0, then I'd have a lot of fun with that I imagine. I just don't know if I trust that Blizz can hit that point, especially in M+ content which scales infinitely and EVENTUALLY damage WILL spike. I also think as a tank it probably feels terrible to lose any form of agency in Pug content because I've been there - I've played tank with some real sus healers before. I know what the prospect of losing your agency toward your survivability sounds like.
Very this.
You will always see spike and one shot damage eventually yes. But I have to insist that this is a "you think you do, but you don't" situation.
I see your point and you make it well. But I do not believe you really want your job to be any more difficult than it already is, and no matter what you think, having to worry about three others over four others is always going to be easier.
@heythereguysitsMetro I think you're correct AND incorrect in that assessment.
I DO want healing to be more difficult, but in combination with more varied damage patterns. I don't think just making healing more difficult is good idea, if I was doing the same thing as now but just harder, I'd probably not have fun.
I want to have fun using my spells, have some talent choices based on damage patterns rather than just having every healer spec for burst/triage out of necessity. I have way less fun every season literally eying everyone to keep them at max health all the time. I like playing with my resources and being able to judge on my own when healing's necessary, or when I can leave someone with a HoT and they'll be fine till the next damage event, etc. Basically more healing patterns and more time spent actually healing overall. I'm fine with healing people more and struggling if the damage isn't 100% -> 30% and they'll need to be 100% again in the next 3 seconds or a mob might charge them and kill them, etc.
The affixes are still terrible, too. I don't have fun having to heal a prio debuff that'll kill someone in 3 ticks but also afflicted is up and my pug dps didn't grab their dispels so I end up healing one up. Just like I didn't have fun pinging explosives.
@@CAPSLOCKING Well afflicted will be gone soon at least!
@@heythereguysitsMetro I agree with CAPSLOCKING, and think there are a couple of points being missed in all of this. First, reducing damage intake and shifting the damage patterns MUST go hand in hand with changing tank self-reliance. If tank self-reliance is changed while one-shot potential is easily found it will be very bad. Second, suggesting this is a "think you do but you don't" situation overlooks the fact that tanks being 100% self-reliant is a new-ish phenomenon in the history of the game. Before now tanks have always needed healing, and that's not a new idea. At the end of the day, a group is exactly that - a group. Tanks being 100% self-reliant turns the group into tank + four others rather than a group. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and concerns - nobody enjoys being nerfed but, to some extent, the hyperbole and dooming from some tanks is out of control to the point that I almost cannot watch these videos anymore. Joining the conversation rather than railing against change would be more productive.
Couple of thoughts while watching:
1. Lasher route and big pull is perfectly fine on first pull, the only one suffering due to accumulation of disorient swirlies really is the Fury Warr having to dodge while maintaining uptime. Doing this first allows all dps to blast cds as well as tank to have cheat death & cds up for it. Just dont stand in swirlies lol
2. Bird pull killing a dps happens all the time because of weird Z axis coding. Don't know exactly how BDK grabs aggro on 5 mobs approaching from Z axis differential but it can easily happen to miss 1-2
3. 200k dps on ST on a 10 is perfectly fine without lust idk what the monk is smoking
4. DPS dying to frontal while trying to "help" soak orbs on Vexamus is incredibly iconic
So far this is a perfectly fine pug I'd just have a good laugh about, they're pacing
5. Monk running into the orb just sent me.
6. All dps dead and I could solo the boss since timer's fucked anyways - tank did nothing wrong, everyone else is blaming him for their shit. Been there, and this is exactly why I'm not pugging tank next season.
Hard to blame ya!
People don't want tank to be self-reliant... I have a feeling they'll be in for a rude awakening in 2 months when VDH aren't around to solo carry interrupt, dungeons have more stop/interrupt and healer have to heal them more.
lol great point. Ya they don't want the tank to solo shit, but they also don't realize how much the tank is carrying them in every group.
That''s not a rude awakening, that's a welcome outcome. VHD (or any other tank) being a demigod is not healthy for the game .Part of the fun of playing a DPS/healer in dungeons is dealing with interrupts and crowd control, it's a big part of what separates the wheat from the chaff. The thing that makes M+ special is that it makes you master your entire toolkit... if I wanted to just bind all my keys to DPS keys and bash my head on the keyboard I'd raid.
@@brandoncomer6492 as long as you realize that these changes will lower your success rate. If you are saying you want to work harder and fail more when you deserve to, that's a noble statement.
I think most players would disagree though. They are happy to be carried if it means more success.
@@brandoncomer6492 you got to be the only DPS who actually pay attention to kick and stop.
Most of them find some branche/flag pole/hill to be rescued on top of, and ignore all mechanic.
Serious question. I just came back after long hiatus. I really want to tank, gdruid, but is it worth sinking my time into? Or another tank? Maybe I shouldn't care if I am having fun.
If you enjoy it, its always worth it!
@@heythereguysitsMetro ok
I know the horse has been beat on the mythic+ changes and tank changes. But I'm just disappointed that seemingly blizzard are making changes out of outrage from players who don't like mythic+ or tanks. Wild times. It's like mop remix style balancing where someone gets upset about something that doesn't actually affect them and then blizzard makes a change that doesn't even accomplish the end goal, but makes everyone more upset.
And also I saw an argument for these m+ changes that boiled down to "I don't want to do mechanics, I want big aoe pulls for big aoe damage". I thought of a creative solution that fixes that problem without changing m+ for the entire player base.
Make island expeditions scale up to max level and reward current expansion currency. Then you can chain pull an entire island for big aoe damage with your 2 friends while you relax. And for those that also made the argument that it's too boring when you 1 shot mobs and can't do more damage - make Mythic islands also scale with ilvl so the mobs are always big target dummies. Problem solved.
@@XAn0nymousX0 right, sounds more like putting out fires more than solving problems.
i had a group that did the same in AD on Yazma was a +21 ( we knew we wasn't timing the key just trying to finish). They actually cheered me on while I solod the boss. The first 2 pulls I reset on the group's request. 3rd pull i ended up soloing from around 60%. Sadly that fight gets extremely easy solo
@@kayla9663 yazma is an exception in my eyes. Actually way way easier to kill it solo than with the group. I did it a ton on that boss and anyone who quibbled with me I ignored.
When I started playing world of Warcraft the tank job was to bind the mobs, the healer had to heal and the dps did dmg. Nobody was anything without the other.
I came back in dragonflight and I can’t get used to what blizzard did to that groupdynamic.
Tanks who do so much dmg and healing is so weird to me. And after 4 seasons active playing in m+ and raids I thing blizzard totally ruined it.
Most of the tanks I had to play with have some sort of god complex, because nothing happens to them. They pull too much, they don’t care about the group and they leave if their fragile egos don’t get pampered. It’s hilarious to watch that. If they wouldn’t deal so much dmg and healing and wouldn’t survive nearly everything, I am pretty sure, certain kind of ppl wouldn’t play tank anymore. And that’s for good.
I can not really understand how anyone think unbeatable tanks are a good idea.
But I don’t think that this is enough. Dds should not have to much selfheal either. The Retri Paladin for example. Yeah it’s easy to play because of that, but compared to an ele shaman or boomkin way to much survivability.
In the end I am not sure if blizzard can manage to balance the nerfs. And I also don’t think that people are willing (or able?) to put more effort in learning their classes. Maybe they will, if they have to.
I remember this one video with the retri that did not know he could dispel the affix in a 17 - 20 key. That’s insane. It should not be possible to reach a 20 key without proper gaming.
You are basically just describing what design creep looks like after 20 years. Not a lot of good ways to tackle all this and even if you go play classic you will see tanks attempting to play this way and succeeding.
Famously in 2019 classic launch the "tanks" were just full fury builds with no shields even on.
I always think like the tank has "prio" of soaking the orbs. If tanks move to an orb, I dont go near it. If tank aint moving towards an orb, its free to soak. Then no problems will happen.
Well that part was incidental to the mistake that followed tbh. But yes, I agree with you in general.
In this particular situation there was no chance of timing the key after those silly avoidable deaths, however I have had tanks with more than 10 mins solo the last boss killing the timer. When asked why they would ruin any chance of timing the key their response was, "because I can". I've also had tanks pull so much they it was impossible to catch every interrupt or use stuns that the dps and healer are overwhelmed and die. Asking them again why they would do such a ridiculous pull, "Well I didn't die so clearly it's everyone's problem but mine". So yeah, I get why Blizzard wants to nerf tanks but I'm truly not a fan of it. I personally only main healers and I enjoy weaving heals and dps together not babysitting tanks. I'd rather use my heals for the dps. And honestly, just healing grows extremely boring after awhile.
Ya those people are just not good players. No actual issue for blizzard to fix there.
To solve this? Put an enrage timer on the boss. Solved.
Ya sadly I don't think you can given the scaling nature of keys. The enrage timer is kinda just the mythic plus timer at this point.
they could've:
left group,
logged out for a minute,
relogged and free.
they didn't need to stay all that time so it's on them imo
I have been told that when you are in boss combat you can not leave the instance until its dead or reset at all. But I have never been on the other end of this, so I don't know.
All I know is people leave the group all the time and their corpse is still stuck there.
But I guess you are saying they have to do those three specific things in that order?
I bet most players don't know that, because I certainly don't.
@@heythereguysitsMetro completely fair
I think 8 minutes is enough to complete this key before the group fell apart. He is probably tilted and took the huff haha. I like the fact the dudes carried on with 4 people as well though to at least try and get it completed. I think then the end boss situation is a tough one to call. In this situation its going to take a long time to complete but if he does complete it then the key is over and everyone wins. If he doesn't make it then its a massive waste of time. Double edge sword but if he can kill it then why not do it. The time is over anyway so yea go for it haha I am on the tanks side for this one.
I do believe lowering tank strength is a good thing though. As long as the mob damage profile is set to more of a sustain than it is now (which they have said it will be). As a healer main it just feels bad to see a tank doing 2 - 3 times my damage and equal or even more than that in some cases to my healing. As a tank alt when I do play it I feel unbelievably powerful compared to all other roles. I sometimes wonder why we even took a healer in the group to begin with.. I can self sustain, I can off-heal. As long as no one does something really stupid we can survive most of the game without a healer. I have no problem with tanks being stronger than other roles but I think right now it is too much of a discrepancy. Would just add at the end of this my opinion on the topic has nothing to do with this "holding people hostage" narrative. I was not even aware that was a thing.
Ya sadly they have not accomplished their goals at all with the tank nerfs so we will see how it plays out.
I agree...at least in this situation. Why purposely die and "try again" only to have the monk die to something stupid, have the shaman stand in breath again and/or have the warrior pull aggro and end up right back to where you currently are (soloing at 80% boss)? The timer's done, so let him do as he wishes.
If something whacko happened, then yeah, die and go agane, but this grp didn't seem like the brightest.
What dps do you play that the tank put dps you by 3 times maybe it's a you issue
@@Noxadrol Read the post lad, i play healer.
nobody kept nobody hostage, they could leave and teleported outside of the dungeon in 59 sec
You can't though it very literally doesn't let you leave if others are in combat with a boss even if you leave the group. This has happened to me quite a few times. They are very literally totally unable to leave.
@@jambogamer-je2nf I have never experienced this myself but people tell me if you can't release due to boss combat it would kick you out either. But one guy says they just need to log off and come back after some time and it will move their body out.
Who knows. Either way, they can't really leave easily.
@@Runzi333 i can leave just fine. maybe delete the useless addons that interfere with the executive functions of your UI?
Not sure how often this hostage situation happens to other ppl, but this is not the reason of the tank nerf for sure. Healers being bored 90% of the time, is the main reason, and Blizzard thinks by healing tanks it solves that issue (it wont... nobody wants to heal tanks, or tanks to rely on healers)
@@Neugo_play ya sadly a lot of people point to situations like this as why tanks are too powerful.
I think the scenario in this pug and the tank Nerfs are two separate issues. From a healer perspective ever since Legion, we’ve seen increasingly more of the healer role get embedded into the tank role and in dragonflight we saw that come to a head as tanks are largely responsible for their own survivability. The reality is that across-the-board tanks do not rely on healers and if a tank needs healing, healers do not have the tools to help them. Moreover as defensive creep has grown across-the-board. We’ve seen the role of healers diminish. I do think that developers tried to address this in dragonflight, but I don’t think they’ll be successful if they don’t look at how strong, the tank role has become.
In my opinion, no player should be able to solo content. Otherwise it’s not group content. It’s just high-level solo content that most players can’t do. Moreover, as a player, I enjoy leveraging my abilities with my party members in order to defeat group content, it’s fun. I understand that pugs are a different beast altogether, but as a player, I like the idea of every role bringing something to the table. And it would be nice if healers Could be on equal footing with other roles.
@@Linknla well you said "no player should be able to solo content" so seems like that's in contrast with your first comment.
Either way, as a tank you will always be able to solo somethings and others no so much.
The reason mythic plus is what it is though, is the timer. Soloing it when it takes 3 hours is different than upgrading a key.
Haha I fully agree the decent thing to do would have been to reset it for them and I actually was going to but given that those guys were likely the reason the hunter left his own key in the first place I wasn’t all that bothered about their feelings, that on top of the healer acusing me of killing him with the frontal. Then there’s all the stuff the shaman started slating my dps and that he can do it way easier on his pally etc, they could have easily just acted reasonable and I wouldn’t have felt the need to ‘troll’ them if that’s what we’re calling it, That’s why I ressed the warrior in the end.
totally understand I've gotten sick of rude baddies and made them sit through a solo when they die at 95% to the first mechanic.
When people keep blaming you it feels kinda good to show them "You guys are the issue, I can solo this place"
@@1pwm1992 ya well said honestly. Love the shaman saying how much better he is than you while he is eating frontals that haven't changed since season 1. I don't blame you at all.
Just check with the group before you go from 80%.... if it was 20% it would be no issue, but at 80% it is just tedious.
Nothing to do with tank-OPness
Just ask "Try or die?" and if the group leaves after you reset the fight you can still solo it if you want...
No one is going to want him to solo it from there, that's the problem. I commented on that in the video. There have been many times I can likely solo save and upgrade the key and people still tell me to not try.
Some times you just need to do what you think is best and deal with the results after.
My speculation is that the tank nerfs have nothing to do directly with tanks being too strong actually or at least not entirely, this is why they are buffing healers at the same time, think about it, they just want to change the dynamic of the healers and dps, the dynamic of how the group interacts, something which is not gonna pan out in low skilled/knowledgeable people because, duh.
Basically, this is just reinforcement of the same design they have about the thing called "use your f'ing defensives" because if the tank is weaker, you, no matter what other type you are either a DPS or a Healer, you will be, by indirect extent have to figure out ways to survive if the tank seems to be now straggling, you will be afraid more, and you will be trying to figure out more ways to not die, and what's that? Proper use of your defensives. ;)
I am not saying i agree with their approach, i am just giving an explanation as to why they might be doing these tank changes.
Well they already gave their reasoning. Not really worried about the why's as much as the how's.
Its clear, no matter what the "why" is, that they aren't hitting their mark.
I would do this as well, they're 100% going to leave and nobody in the group will get anything for the time spent. If you finish the boss you'll get a lesser reward, but still some crests/vault score/chance at loot. The monk's attitude did way more damage to wasting everyone's time than the DK did. The way that the shaman's ego got offended was too funny
The other option is just let them leave and then solo it from 100 instead of 80. But that's a big commitment on your end to want to do that.
To wipe or not to wipe? It depends. On boss HP, time of the season, etc, etc. I had mixed reactions to me soloing bosses, some people think it's cool, some don't care, some start flaming.
Usually I try to solo the boss on any % health if 1) I don't believe my team can not die again 2) I need the dungeon done for one reason or another (item, vault, etc). Despite what the team might be saying in chat, if they die to mechanics over and over again, it's faster to kill the boss solo. Remember Court of Stars last boss before nerfs?
If above is not the case, eh, whatever team wants, I can type between death strikes and ask
Yes those are my criteria too usually. The group demonstrated they can't do these very easy mechanics so why risk another pull being the same.
These tank changes are really dumb. And this along with the changes to M+ gearing makes me happy I haven't bought TWW yet. Like every discussion where people are saying "Tanks shouldn't be able to solo bosses." I reply with "Tanks shouldn't have to solo bosses." Like people are dying to silly stuff on every boss, they want you to wipe and then the second time around they all die again. I joke among my friends that those people are actually Blizzard devs.
See this is my argument as well. People complain that tanks shouldn't be able to do this or shouldn't be able to do that, but it's their own lack of skill and sucky gameplay that causes them to die, which results in their tank being the only one left alive. You are exactly right. Tanks wouldn't have to solo things if their group members didn't fucking suck so much lol
I really like that response "Tanks shouldn't have to solo bosses."
That's really a genius response to it honestly.
Because that's exactly what we have here.
The other players FAILED the fight.
That's not the tank's fault at all. So if he doesn't fail the fight, why should he be forced to stop playing his character to die sooner just for them?
He shouldn't be, is the answer. And he shouldn't be nerfed just because he can do it.
ive generally found if they cant complete the key in time they will moan and flame, but if you as tank grab it in time they re quite happy to let ya...
Yup, ironic huh?
I remember doing Siege of Orgrimmar lfr back in MoP. One of the early (maybe first) bosses was some big water elemental type thing. It was a very soloable boss and multiple times I had people continue to solo a "failed" attempt. Think Warlock was the most capable with pet tanking but I remember a SP doing it aswell. I always thought it was cool and I doubt it's bannable.
Immerseus or whatever, yeah warlocks were nutty then so they could def solo it. I had an almost full raid wipe on the lfr throne of thunder eyeboss back in mop and the blood dk solo'd it after 15 minutes, that's what inspired me to try blood dk after that lol
@@Erik_Arnqvist ya obviously not bannable to solo a boss meant for a group lol.
The tank nerfs are an ATTEMPT to address this, but it is a failed attempt. Blizzard needs to stop using healing and mitigation as the same thing for one. This of course really hurts blood dks without MAJOR changes, and the refusal to make that change I think is a prime reason why they can't get it right. The round block just won't fit in that square hole. To get this right, they probably also need to make tanking more about mob and aggro management than incoming damage management, otherwise they will always end up right back where we are now, trying to avoid the absurd one shots or equally absurd pull sizes.
To counter your argument that tanks aren't OP, the mechanics that killed the people in this fight, the tank would have not only survived, but barely have noticed, and not even need the services of a healer to correct it. The gap between tanks and other roles has gotten absurdly large. But you're also right, that doesn't take away the fails of the other players getting themselves dead and then blaming the tank for it.
That's not really a valid counter, because they aren't meant to do more damage to tanks than to anyone else, and tanks just have more health.
DPS and Healers don't really have access to ways to improve their health, but if say a Frost DK some how had the same health as a Blood DK, he would survive those in that same way.
@@heythereguysitsMetro The extra health of a tank I agree with. It is the ability to deal with the repercussions themself that is the problem. You're right that DPS and healers don't have access to ways to improve their health. That's the argument that they are OP right there.
Take Kop's video you reviewed just the other day. The tank lost aggro for a split second and ONE hit killed Kop. Damage that wasn't even noticeable on a tank, was instantly fatal to Kop. Yet the tank can also self heal themselves and do significant DPS? That's the issue. If we look at the holy trinity model as the ideal and asked "how much of each does class get?" the current way things work, tank classes get much more damage and healing, than the damage and healing get in the way of tanking.
This is especially bad when it comes to self healing and why Blizzard is TRYING to fix that, but without properly changing the disparate healing mechanics of tanks. I think Blizzard is doomed to failure if they don't. As I said, it will either be the huge spike damage we saw recently, or relegating the healer to just healing the DPS we have seen previously. It is impossible to balance because Blizzard has to balance self heals, which don't scale, with actual mitigation, which does scale. Whatever tank sits in the sweet spot of getting the most out of both is going to be the meta tank.
@@sirdiealott ya fair enough. I respect your position. I just look at this as the way the game works and honestly has worked for a long time.
They can adjust it but there is not ever going to be a day where tanks can get meleeded and survive but so can DPS without reworking how armor and all stats work in my eyes.
So I main a Rogue. However, my main alt, which is always just as geared as my rogue, and i usually push further in keys, is always a tank. Heres my opinion on this video. When everyone goes down the logical decision for a tank to make is, "If i solo this, will we still time it?" The clear answer this DK should have came to, was No. There was not nearly enough time, especially in a 10, on tyrannical, while hes only doing 75k ST dps. Now i understand, looking at how much damage the DPS did in the 1 min they were alive, there was no way they were going to time it even if he did die. So then why is he still fighting the boss? There are many reasons people would want him to stop, in higher keys, people often dont want a "Failed key" showing up as your highest, so you would choose not to finish the run when it is 100% dead. However, it sounds like his group wanted to go again. The key is dead. If they want to finish and get loot, he should have died, there is absolutely no point in continuing to solo 70% of this bosses health at this point. It is just a massive waste of time for everyone involved. ---- And in reference to the tank nerf question, i think nerfing tanks is completely absurd. Should a tank be able to finish this boss solo? Yes. But its going to take forever, which is why any decent person, would not make everyone watch this for 10-15 min.
@@adianm6691 at the end of the day it's his choice. You have your opinions and that's fine. But he isn't doing anything wrong by continuing on. It's rude, yes. But so we're they.
It's pretty clear the tank should have wiped when they asked.
If he still wants to solo the boss after they leave, nothing is stopping him.
@@samward1317 it's not clear no. It was the polite thing to do though and yes, he could have just soloed it from 100 easily.
It was a 4 man already and the other players were playing bad and could trigger leave at anytime forcing the dungeon to close. Tank looked like he wanted vault credit for that run , and did not trust them enough to not leave and void the run. I am sure if the tank trusted them he would let them try again , but he just didn't want to risk his vault slot after having spent already up to 1 hour forming and then doing the dungeon. I can't fault the tank on this one. If the group was intact , all 5 members , there was 0 or little tilting / trolling and the other players all said in chat they wanted to go again , then it would be the tanks fault.
Ya, I feel that way too. If you can see the finish line, you gotta cross it with or without your teammates at times.
The other players are npcs. I don’t care if they have to watch me solo the boss. I am the main character. Magni himself acknowledges this.
@@CharlieVictor212 good one.
how often does stuff like that actually happen?
When you play Blood DK? All the time
They dont need to nerf tanks, maybe just lower there damage by 50%+ and add threat to them. Tanks should have lower damage then healers but not die to damage.
@@Ohpeaches87 lower than healers!? That is unlikely to ever happen simply because healers do not use a DPS spell every global.
Tanks are constantly dealing damage so they will always be higher.
They would of cleared it too if people just got off the DPS chart monitoring. A comment coming from a healer too is pretty odd to me. If they were wiping constantly or failing DPS checks then maybe its okay to make a less aggressive comment.
But DPS meters and "meta" lists have really damage the social contract for some M+ players and it shows here.
Once you go down to 4 people, who cares if you time or not, if a tank solo the last boss or what happens - the extra comments are unnecessary.
Agreed all around.
I understand if the boss was already at 20% or less and there is enough time to finish it. There have been some fights where the boss was so much easier after everyone else was dead. On the regular, I would rather finish as a team.
@@aaronbolean6903 ya in that case you absolutely do it.
I believe you can disable the ping system they added in DF. That's my only guess for the Shamans comment, DK just has it disabled so can't see it in replay.
At this point in the xpac/season is there really any reason to complete a untimed 10 especially when you are trying to 4man it. TBH if they were all complaining about me trying to solo it and I died, I am just leaving the key anyway. Are they not allowed to leave the group, I know they can't release. IDK even if I was pissed at someone for doing something like this, I am just getting up and walking away for a bit, get some water w/e.
Omg you can disable that. Have to find out how. Still get people trying to "coach me" through dungeons on a 2700 alt (with a 3410 main).
Ya, you can probably disable it. But ya, absolutely plenty of reasons to finish 10s. People are gearing alts for leveling next expansion.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I guess just in my mind I would rather just go fast and do aggressive pulls in 8s if I'm just trying to get more gear/crests, instead of trying to repeat doing a boss that we already failed.
@@cheeks684 So you'd rather leave this key then join another to get gear rather than stay for another 10 minutes and finish this one for the same gear haha?
Never really understood these comments, and its not just who who thinks this way!
There is no reason you can't do both progression and gearing at the same time.
The only thing that makes that difficult is leaver culture.
If he was tanking my dungeon and we already failed the key anyway, I'd just be like "Sweet, lets see if he can actually solo this boss." Just for the fun of it, I guess.
Good outlook on that!
I play mainly tanks and on high keys and with pugs and just want to drop an advice: ignore them all. The guys who flames, are always the bad player. It will not help you or the others to describe why they are bad.
But ofc, trying to solo a boss as tank is not clever. Just reset and try again or leave grp.
@@markust4421 what if he wants to finish the key but the others don't?
@@heythereguysitsMetro according to the chat/other guys i thought they wanted to try it again too? But if not, he can continue ofc^^
8:53 okay I paused it, and seeing the monk's gameplay so far, I predict he will be the first to die. I have no clue how mw monk works but also going into a Tyran boss with only 20% mana is a bit sus to me but maybe monks are fine without mana idk. Oh look who died first .. can't say I'm surprised.. - I feel conflicted about his decision to solo the boss.. The monk was clearly an idiot but deciding to solo it from 80% making them wait 10+ minutes is not okay unless they agree to it, but I know they would have just left and not stay to finish so I can't really blame him for wanting to finish it like this.
I think the tank nerfs are not necessary I never felt useless as a healer in that regard, if a tank could self sustain easily I welcomed it because it meant I can contribute more in other ways as a healer and if they couldn't (cuz they are learning the spec, low gear, or just bad etc.) then that was fine too. I had several occasions where the last 20% or less was finished by the tank and I really didn't mind I never thought ah this is op it should be nerfed.
Ya I think the main take away here is that the tank could just wipe and solo it from 100 if he wants to do that after they leave.
@@heythereguysitsMetroOr maybe this was his way of punishing them for being careless and dying too many times of their own fault.(i played with warlock, dk, shaman, hunter)
@@hunchbacked5476 That would not be a very noble pursuit.
Man for me the dk and paladin change is massive compared to the other tanks got they barely touch them if they are going to nerf witch i dont agree with at least try to be more balanced with the tunning to other specs
they just don't want anyone to do these massive pulls anymore. they wanna make it impossible.
@@hejkasolan3155 thats never gonna happen. its gonna turn into a kiting meta.... like every time they do that garbage
@@hejkasolan3155 They're not done tuning by far. I get their intention though. But i'm also pretty sure they will not get it done in a sensible way. As always it will be a complete clownshow on launch and a couple of weeks after.
@@phatal4573 it may or it may not. i'm merely stating what their intentions are. it's infinitely more difficult to control packs in tww beta right now. I don't see anyone able to do 4-6 pack pulls with these tank changes.
Let's try to stick to the topic at hand in this video please. If you want to discuss that, I have two other videos on the tank changes overall.
i personally still don't believe that good tanks should be able to realistically survive against a boss forever solo, if current balancing is (completely made up numbers) say a good tank can solo forever and a bad tank can solo for 5 mins then i think it should be a good tank can solo for 5 mins and a bad tank for 1 minute
That's not really something you'd ever be able to design intentionally. You'd need what, a scaling damage buff to exist whenever the tank is alone or something? Or create some resources like mana that doesn't recover until you finish the boss?
Tank's not an asshole at all, the group probably wouldn't of given the last boss a second shot if the tank would've just died early.
@@woahistaken I agree with that too, but at the same time he can just let those guys leave and solo it without them after they do.
I agree with Metro on this one. If the tank wanted to fight the boss solo, he should have wiped, told them he wanted to solo it, but let them go free. Not giving them that choice is disrespecting their time.
Not an asshole, selfish.
People actualy want this not because of its smart but because of own ego.
They don't understand the players in your group are on the same team.
Yup, pretty much said the same thing in the video right?
idc if a tank can solo a boss because its countered by how much time it takes to do it. Depending on boss %, a lot of the time it wont be worth for the tank to solo.
I said that in the video, right?
@@heythereguysitsMetro yeah, I commented before I got to that part
Just let the tank have some fun, id go make something to drink and put my feet on the desk and watch the show. The key is bricked anyway so who cares
Ya tbh I can see them wanting to leave.
The fact that they are forced to sit there isn't great.
This was 100% a "oh youre gonna tell me what i can and cant do?? Ill show you"
Was the tank in the right? No. It started as a judgement call and he got pushed into an ego battle.
Now on the other hand "being held hostage"? Brother its a game, just log out for 10 minutes jfc
well said, 100 percent agreed all around.
The only role that players with egos at +10s ( old +20s) are good at is the victim role. Unfortunately its only going to get worst and more toxic in pugs with tank nerfs because some players dont read patch notes. Idk how anyone can blame the BDK at all when the rest of the party says confidently “We finish” “4 is np” then proceed to die to easy mechanics, play victim and, be unjustifiably toxic. Yes the tank coulda reset but other players should not be dying to easy mechanics. This is the last boss of Algethar on a +10 one of the easiest DF bosses so that says a lot.
@@Jevantai420 ya kinda cracks me up when they ALL get hit by avoidable mechanics on the fight and die lol
You should definitely wipe it even though its their fault that they died. Their frustration is super justified. That being said if people want tank nerfs because of something like this, its not a player power problem its just a player problem
insult and blame the tank all run and he is way more likely to pull this.
You should consider the curiosity for sure. Can always just solo it from 100 if they want to leave. But their frustration should come with their own play first and foremost. If they took credit for being dead there it might be a different situation.
i don't think the tank was wrong in this example. my argument for nerfing tanks only extends to placing them back into the position of having to rely on the team around them. as the tank role stands now, the tank can move through an instance with very little regard for the other four players. it makes for a bad experience. more than once i've told a tank at the end of the instance: If your ability ever catches up with your ego, you will be a fine tank.
What level keys are we talking about here? I certainly can't do this.
@@heythereguysitsMetro you are tanking very high keys, and my experience has been that once you hit around +10 teamwork becomes more important. keys lower than 10, however, are terrible and most often because of bigheaded tanks.
@@olddrunkgamer All I can say is if you are running into that sort of behavior, record the runs and send them in for review.
Happy to expose bad behavior.
I do get a lot of runs that are sub 10, and honestly never really see bigheaded tanks that are actually impacting a keys successrate.
But I admit since I'm a tank, a lot of the runs are also tanks that are submitted.
The issue isn't the tanks. The issue is players punching above their weight in key levels they have no business being in. Also the shaman getting hit by the breath twice in a row is actually griefing lol
Ya pretty wild to die to that twice like that.
I think I solved the mystery here. Healer mains want tanks nerfed so they have an excuse to not have to dps anymore. They just want to heal and then stand afk while no outgoing damage is happening.
There is no real logic to it sadly. They are just whining.
It's hard to believe that people can think that tanks should be invincible enough to solo a boss for that long.
That's just how its been for a long long time now.
Its mostly a Blood DK thing though. Not every tank can do this that easily.
@@heythereguysitsMetro no one should be able to solo (in relevant content) a boss for that long. It would be better if a bad tank could survive solo for a modest amount of time, an average tank for a bit longer, and a good tank for quite a lot longer. Allow for more skill expression.
Also, if a healer can safely ignore 20% of the team, the other folks have to take more damage to try to challenge the healers. If the healer has to spend a little time on the tank, everyone else doesn't need to take as much. Spread the responsibility around. I don't think anyone is advocating for a Classic model where the healer has to blast the tank with constant heals, but the current model is a bit too far from that.
@@drh255 only a blood dk would be able to solo for this long and again that's just how they work.
Hard to have his conversation uniformly for all 6 tanks so I'll just leave it there for now.
"proficienality - I dunno what, this has got to be some other language" 😂😂
@@ericv738 haha it certainly isn't English!
Can't they just leave party? I also believe Blizz has a "I'm stuck" self-service on a timer if leaving party does not work. Poor them being held hostages.
If it wasn't for the comical deaths I would blame the DK for not resetting. Dying stupidly on last boss in AA which is probably the easiest boss in DF is telling in itself.
I don't believe so. I have been told that if you are in boss combat you can not release or leave the group until it's over. So if it takes hours you are stuck. I don't know for sure.
I did this stuff in ataldazar is s3 in keys when we couldnt time it, bc pugs couldnt handle yazma, so atleast i can get my loot. In keys when we can still time i would die and try again. In a situation like in this video i would kill the boss solo and put this guys in ignore list. But to be fair i think the spot that he choose for tanking was really bad, and its the main reason why his party died.
@@vermil4894 oh no lol. The mechanics are fully dodgable. Can't blame anything like that on tank positioning unless it's in a super extreme position.
Absolutely 💯 agree with you. 😊🎉 thank you for this video.
Glad to hear!
You should make a series named the Dunning-Kruger of M+ or something xD
haha
Tank nerfs aren't justified, what's the point, he can solo it, but it'll take like 10 minutes to do so. It's not like he can solo the dungeon in time.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, they could've left the group and just be teleported to the graveyard ( not totally sure on this, correct me if I'm wrong).
Ya that isn't correct about leaving the group. But I agree with the other statement. He can't upgrade the key alone so this is not an issue.
The monk was probably going to die again. I think the shaman may learn from his mistake. Regardless , it's the tanks decision.
Ya, that monk played so bad I wouldn't trust him in another pull.
I would expect a 4 man group like this one, with the deaths shown, to give up if the tank actually did reset it. In fact, this late into the season (now over) I wouldn’t trust them to try again. Especially since the flaming AND these mistakes are clear signs of players who lack sophisticated plan of attack for content like this.
Sounds condescending, but it is what it is.
If this was my Blood Death Knight, all things considered, their time and my time are two different things. If I let them leave, then that’s one less completed key. If I “hostage take” I guarantee a completed key and push on.
As far as I am concerned, he made the competitive choice.
Yup I totally agree with this assessment.
One thing to add though is allowing them to leave then just solo it from 100 afterwards. But ya in general you are spot on.
I'm all for solo'ing a boss when the party wipes, but it comes down to whether its going to be faster to solo or wipe and try again. Sorry, but solo'ing a 10 tyrannical boss from 70% is a bit egregious.
No that's not all it comes down to.
There is also the likelihood of there actually being a second pull on it at all.
That is a very low chance in the game now-a-days.
If everyone leaves after you wipe for them, then its actually faster to just solo it from 70 than it is to then solo it from 100 after they leave.
This is what I’ve complained about in the past about being a tank. You can do absolutely nothing wrong and you’ll get flamed for dps dying from frontals, swirlies and cones. Just because we take hits from NPCs all the time doesn’t mean we want to tank all your hurtful comments too
Funny point there I like that. These guys died really badly on this fight. You didn't. And you get flamed for it haha.
Wild game at times.
I typically I agree with all that is said here but in this instance the tank is definitely holding them “hostage”, the chances are they were more than willing to go again and down it purely because of sunk cost. I’ve been the tank in this situation and done it purely to spite them, so I know that’s kind of what is happening here. Did they make mistakes. Yeah, no doubt they shouldn’t have died or flamed but I think choosing to do this is probably making a right from two wrongs. Even if they ressed and they left he could still do this same thing plus 20% hp which would of been about 5m more
Also I just realised that the people walking into orbs may be them trying to get a stacking buff that it gives. Each orb gives you 5% dmg done with a max of 15%, though somehow I doubt they were fully planning it
@@zoedawn7125 ya it's a spite thing once they start flaming. He admits this.
I would rather see him wipe and if they leave just solo from 100. But honestly the whole use of the word "hostage" is so embarrassing I would probably immediately disregard their thoughts myself. Way over dramatic over something they themselves caused.
think tank would have position boss near the entrance to give more room , also healer was too toxic
k
If your group wants you to try and solo it after they die then that seems fine but otherwise you should wipe unless the boss is like very nearly dead. I'm playing this game to have fun and not being able to leave and being completely totally STUCK, literally forced to do nothing but watch and wait while others are playing is actually the worst.
I would also add that person to my ignore list actually. I'm not playing this game to have the best chance at upgrading a key or whatever, I'm trying to have fun and watching someone else play when I can't leave and have super limited hours of the day to play is actually the worst. I can only play for a little while and if I'm spending more than like a minute tops maybe watching someone else play while I can not do anything else at all is just infuriating.
IMO it's a bad choice to not allow people to just leave the group and teleport out of the area when "others in your group are in combat" because literally being stuck with no way to leave a obnoxious group is actually just awful for no reason. I know they don't want people gaming the system or whatever but forcing people to stay there until everyone dies or the guy does finally kill the boss is just the worst choice. I've had multiple occasions where the group was so awful I full on closed the game because I couldn't get away from them and they wouldn't wipe for way longer than was reasonable. A key is literally not worth that much fuss and frustration.
I will say the monk and others could have also been nicer about it since the Tank seems to have not known that the wipe was a better option? idk it's a 10 they all should have been better and nicer lmao
What you are describing is the difference in reasons to play and expectations.
If the tank is playing for a different reason than you, that is not invalid. Best way to handle it is not pug. Or just chill out and roll with the punches.
So there is nothing wrong with leaving when tank can solo a tyrannical boss at +10
@@lambro9973 what do you mean?
not bannable IMO. i think its great when my tank friends can finish a fight and then we can rez and finish
Well its not really a matter of opinion haha. This is 100 percent never going to result in a ban. If anything, they would be banned sooner for the chat than the gameplay.
Tank main here and i only get yelled at when im going to fast and/or big. And since im immortal i only go fast and big
Well you should obviously go as fast or big as the group can allow. If you are "immortal" you should just be doing higher keys though tbh.
TLDR buff tanks dps
haha
If I had this monk. I would have done the same as this tank. But I would be explaining that I was soloing it because of him, being a rude prick, blaming tank for following him when the tank was obviously going for the orb. I have no issue being a dick to someone who is more of a dick.
I can see your point. I don't think he was that rude tbh. But I do see your point.
If he can solo it from 80 to 0 then he can solo it from 100 to 0. If you see people asking you to stop you probably just stop.
@@Zoho-Wow ya I agree with that.
just my 2 cents:
I play both tanks and healers. I understand that it's a lot of fun to have the responsibility and the opportunity to help improve the situation alone. I enjoy it too.
But when I play healer I feel completely different, I don't feel so important. Tanks that heal more than me, where that's my job, it seems like I'm just running behind and trying to keep the dd's alive, it's so frustrating.
As a healer, I occasionally wonder how tanks would think if dd's could withstand more damage than tanks. It's so depressing after a hard fight as a healer to see that tanks heal more.
The problem at the moment is the inequality of responsibility in the group, tanks don't want to hand over responsibility to players, that would make them more dependent on others, but other roles in the group want to feel just as important.
I don't think nerfing the tanks so that they get more damage is the solution. I would rather do something like, get less damage, but drastically reduce self sustain.
This is all in your head. I can not upgrade a key alone as the tank.
I need DPS with me, and they need you.
If you are worried about tanks healing more than you, turn off details.
These are simply not issues with WoW but with perception.
Yes, this. I don't think Blizz ever meant for the orbs mechanic on Vex to be a 'tank picks up all the orbs' mechanic. I think it was always meant to be a collaborative effort where the healers and DPS with a dispel need to pay attention and use them wisely and the DPS need to be attentive enough to move out of the ground effect that spawns under them and be aware enough to recognize if they're still debuffed and can't pick up another orb themselves yet.
It IS more challenging to play it that way, but if the tank is able to usurp all of that load onto himself because their massive health pool, DR, and regen trivialize the mechanic that doesn't make them a 'better' or more selfless player for doing so. It seems like a lot of M+ tanks are losing sight of that.
I’m ngl but I’d be quite annoyed too if the tank decided to try to solo the boss when it still had a decent amount of health left. I wouldn’t have acted the way these assholes did about it, however.
I would be annoyed too, I imagine. But at the end of the day its his choice. They failed, and he didn't.
The tank was the one that was griefed. The other players played like garbage through the entire dungeon. I can't imagine getting upset at the tank when they were the only one who didn't die to easy mechanics.
Was your first sentence right?
I agree with the other two for sure haha
@@heythereguysitsMetro well I suppose everyone kind of griefed. The tank probably should have wiped quickly and reset, but the other players were being toxic beforehand so it's hard to have much sympathy for them.
@@jeffryb7883 ya that's the way I feel about it too. At the end of the day no one "greifed" anyone in my eyes though. One player just played to their best of ability and was rude in the way that people were asking to stop and he didn't want to. That's very different than greifing because they all signed up to the dungeon willingly.
Can't blame any of that on the tank, people got killed by their own mistakes. But trying so solo it at 80% id just wipe it, if it was like 40ish or so then hey go for it if had enough time. I Been playing this game as holy pally off and on since BC, and I dont remember a time when you didn't want a strong tank. The longer they can stay alive and more shit they can soak up the better. Makes life way eaiser. It's kinda funny people complain about tank being to strong they don't feel needed, and also complain tank to weak and take to much dmg. It's either one side or the other. I'll take a strong tank any day, less stuff I have to worry about.
100 percent agreed!
Even though I’m a toxic player my self, I find myself siding with the tank on this one. Why didn’t those folks just leave when they thought it was all over? Instead, they stay dead and blame the tank. Are these people just oblivious or something?
Its not that easy. When you are in boss combat you can't actually release and since you can't release you can't leave the instance.
Some one posted a way to get out of this situation, but its kinda complicated so I imagine most players don't know of it.
Seems like you are also one of the players, and so am I haha
@@heythereguysitsMetro but they can, they only needed to leave the party and then the game will kick them out of the instant after 2 min i think.
@@n-hunter1349 I have been told this is not true when in boss combat but I'm not sure as I have never been in this position obviously.
Tanks dont need to be nerfed..OP squishy casters do
Tanks may need to be nerfed, but that wont impact this, and is not the reason to ask for it.
Basically what I'm trying to help people see here.
Maybe they shouldn’t have fuckin died to a +10 boss in the first place.
Kinda weird takes in the beginning though, aa is insanely tight timer and doing anything but all the lashers in the first pull, ideally with the sentry on the platform, would be hard trolling.
Insanely tight!? You should try my route then haha.
This is the second easiest dungeon and its really not close in my eyes.
Upgraded on both 15 fort and tyran with plenty of time to spare!
That’s probably because you’re doing 15s. Doing anything but snapping all the lashers to the sentry and then over to the birds when sentry dies is not going to time these 20s and 21s. I’m sorry, but I highly doubt your route is faster.
@@Magiczwow Yes, that's exactly why. You can pretend you are doing 21s all you like, but if you are actually trying to compare the timer and strategies from a 21 and a 10 I think you have something seriously wrong with you. Is that an ego thing?
I imagine anyone who actually does a 21 knows how vastly different that is from what I am talking about and what I am showing in this video.
@@heythereguysitsMetro What? I was simply commenting on that splitting the first pull ever, is silly, and the fact that you said the timer is lenient, which it is not in comparison to most other dungeons?
@@Magiczwow It absolutely IS lenient in the key levels we are discussing here. You see how they wipe to the first pack, have a hunter doing half the dps of another, and nearly upgrade it with 4 people right?
No it's not and it shouldn't be why people want tanks to be nerfed but he was being an asshole. In the time it took him to kill that boss you could have cleared the whole dungeon with a new group.
What...
No that is absolutely not true lol
But ya, I agree he was being selfish. "Asshole" too far for sure, but selfish absolutely.
i mean this is griefing making a 3 min boss fight into 15 mins one on purpose not just tilts the players but also makes a negative remark on the RIO page if some one looking up you up overtiming by 20 mins
That is not a valid thing to look at because it doesn't show the actual disbands, only finished keys.
Those count way more than one key being over time when they have to finish it with 4 players, but aren't shown.
Anyone doing that is not intelligent, and as such their opinion would not matter.
Meh I wouldn't really care. The key was cooked anyway. I can sit back and watch youboob while tank tries to complete.
@@theinitiate110 good attitude to have, love to hear that.
Why people run with warriors during weeks like this is crazy to me. No hero, no cc, no brez, no dispel. Useless class
I do agree but let's try to stay in topic here haha
Tanks are too powerful wich make playing a dps basically playing some kind of moving target dummy simulator.
But thats just half of the story. The dungeon design is flawd aswell right now.
Bring back the days when actually ccing was meaningful in stead of these massive big pull run like crazy and feed the meters kind of gameplay.
People don't play tank because they don't want the sole responsibility in a dungeon. I remember playing a mage or a hunter and actually doing good cc was worth something. Tank dies - you can still survive by kiting and cc'ng. Those days are practically gone.
O and I main Blood DK - and from a tank perspective I dont have an issue with my own power. Its fun to be powerful. And with current dungeons design its logical.
CC will never really exist in a timed dungeon.
@@heythereguysitsMetro that's kind of a fixed mindset you got going on there bud ^^ it very well could, and maybe should. The question mostly is: do people want it? Or more accurate: does Blizzard want it?
@@sjogum they already tried it multiple times man. It doesn't work. If the timer didn't exist it would be easier to accomplish but you just can't take the time to fight one mob after a full pack dies and be efficient.
Who's keeping them there? The loot? They won't run back and kill in 2 minutes. Key's done, someone else's key, so either leave or tab out and watch a video. You literally just go afk for a chance at loot. They're just pissy and looking for a reason to get mad, as a lot of online gamers do.
I agree, but in this case they may want to leave and they aren't able to because of how the dungeon mechanics work.
tbh, sure we tanks are really strong and had to be nerfed, but most of the damage in dungeons is actually just to high and 80% of the healer would stop playing during df when they had a 5th target to heal. to his situation, this guys arent really good specially the monk was stupid af and had no clue what he was talking about. i mean he flamed the tank for his own movement and faults.
Ya that monk really makes a fool out of himself. If it was the shaman doing that I would have just been bashing that dude the whole time. But at least he was mostly quiet afterwards.
you look a bit like a young Jurgen Klopp maybe his baby brother !
@@fonnick3266 yup he is my cousin!
this guy givin SV hunters a bad name..
the line is your a tank not a dps that much health on the boss is just GG..
They all kind of have a bad name by default atm. But apparently that will change soon!
I remember finishing a +8 tyrannical 3rd boss in Halls of Infusion by myself on my prot warrior alt, after everyone else died to mechanical mistakes. I solo'd her down from 25% hp and even that was hard. People don't realize the patience and precise cooldown rotation required to pull something like that off. It's also not as though the tank is going to solo a boss and save the key at 3 or less minutes remaining, because of the amount of time it takes. People just crying for no reason as usual.
@@Thematicz warrior is certainly more effort I'm sure. There have been many times I have solo saved a key that would have been an upgrade only if I succeeded though tbh.
It was really common in atal dazar because of how hard the last boss was but how easy the timer was.
If the healer can't keep the group up due to errors anyway, what will the outcome of nerfing the Tank be? The healers will be under much more pressure and fail. The Deeps on this run are flaming the Tank because THEY failed the mechanics. I think dungeons were much more difficult and interesting when you had to CC, and single pull mobs etc. Most of the time now it's like a speed run; boring AF.
@@stevenfairclough5745 it IS a speed run now haha. But ya I agree with the rest.
@@heythereguysitsMetroyeah I know. In M+, it’s a speed run, I get it. I’m harkening back to the days when Heroic Dungeons needed strategy, and cooperative team play. Completing an Heroic dungeon used to be an achievement 😂😂😂
@@stevenfairclough5745 You might just be remembering being a noob.
Mythic+ still requires strategy and cooperative team play, but it also requires speed.
Speed is actually an inevitable fact of PVE. Eventually, you do stuff enough that you don't care about just finishing it anymore, but finishing it fast.
You can see people do this in every version of wow ever.
I dont mind If you are good enough to try.
gotcha
at 80% I would die but at 20% then i would try to solo tank it.
Ya, that seems more fair.
The argument I've heard a lot of dps and healers make is that when tanks are "Immortal" it makes it impossible for other roles to survive. Initially I was confused because damage intended for tanks doesn't apply to other roles. It took a long time to sus out that they were referring to tanks over pulling and mobs with aoe or random taget damage overlapping.
Explaining to them that that was a skill issue on the part of those tanks and an issue with blizzard dungeon design and not a reason to nerf tanks was a lost cause.
@@jordangrant1551 yup that's exactly right. It's not a flaw with tanks, it's a flaw with dungeon design, is how I have heard others break through that argument.
High rateing healer here 3k plus I want tanks nerfed because I almost never ever have to interact with a tank to keep them alive it doesn't even really feel like they are a part of the team I want tanks to have to rely more on there team I want more teamwork and synergy and working together atm it just feels like tank can run in and do what ever they want and need zero help from dps or a healer to stay alive it's boring
@@knightnight2272 I can see that for sure. Sadly you getting what you wish for just makes your job harder and your success rate lower. You sure you want that?
Honestly I from what I've seen from tanks playing the nerfs not as bad as people are saying my friend who I duo keys with seems to be just fine the main diffrence atleast from what we can tell now is he needs to occasionally tell me on pulls hey pain supp me or hey life grip me so I can kite and I've been enjoying it more the tank relying on his teammates is more enjoyable and less like I'm playing with a bot
@@knightnight2272 Okay, well first of all yes the changes blizzard implemented did not accomplish their goal at all and tanks are still very self reliant.
So backing this up then, are you wanting them to go further? Or just a small step towards the direction of needing a healer was all you wanted anyway?
My question initially was, in a theoretical landscape where tanks can never survive without outside healing, your successrate will plummet, so are you sure you want that?
What I'm wanting for then to do is bring back class utility add ways where dps can help the tank survive and where healers can also help tank survive I think one of the best examples I can give was during shadow lands there was a engineering dummy people where dropping so tanks could back off and get a breather stuff like that I think is much better for the games health other then going into a key no one talks no team work just face roll and leave
I feel like a game based around community should need communication in order to succeed
To me its also just a mix of poor boss design that allows this aswell. Idk to me the boss design has just been getting worse for m+.
Oh ya? I would not say boss design has anything to do with this in this case.
personally i think it's not a matter whether you can solo a boss as a tank or not but i find it annoying just watching and doing nothing if it is a long fight ... just annoying and boring! I wouldn't report him though!
Ya I'm sure it's not fun. But neither is watching four deaths to avoidable mechanics on one boss.
Sometimes life is annoying and boring!
Unfortunately this sort of "x class/role is stronger than mine pls nerf" mentality is all to common in the playerbase fostered by Blizzards willingness to swing the nerf bat and unwillingness to buff underperforming classes unless the gap is above 15% (which I believe is their accepted threshold for maximum difference in top vs bottom performing class but may be a bit off on the exact number)
I would say you're absolutely correct in your statement that this tank didn't really do anything wrong IF the boss wasn't at 80% hp when he ended up being solo, if this was a premade and/or the other players agreed to let him solo I'd understand it but when the group asks to just wipe (and especially if they want to try again) I think it's fair to call this a griefing and even a hostage situation as resetting the boss and going again with four players is always going to be faster than the tank trying to solo the boss above 40% hp let alone 80%. Now if the group just wanted to leave I don't think there is anything stopping them from leaving the group and getting ported out cause they no longer belong to the group tied to the instance (granted it takes a minute or so to kick you as grace period in case you aren't meaning to leave group)
Personally I only like to solo try bosses if I believe that either A: I can time a key that would otherwise deplete or B: Finishing the boss solo would always be faster than resetting regardless of if the key depletes or not. Granted I sometimes enjoy wasting 45 minutes soloing a world boss for shits and giggles but that's me wasting my own time and doesn't affect anyone unless they're brave enough to try and help me :P
Few things. No they can't leave while some one is in boss combat.
Second, absolutely not a greifing situation no. The tank is not required to fail just because others already did and are asking him too.
He is rude by not doing so, but the tanks job isn't to fold like a domino and be at the beck and call of the group as soon as they make a mistake.
In no way is this greifing and in no way are they hostages because he isn't doing it to exploit them. He is doing it for the same reason they all entered the key. To finish the dungeon.
I like your optimism but one guy already left when the key was still timeable lol...
These guys aren't staying for another pull.
All that being said I think the right thing to do is wipe and let them leave then solo it from 100 if you want.
@heythereguysitsMetro I was fairly certain that even in boss battle if you leave the party it will start the auto instance kick timer as you're not in the instance group anymore. I have no actual proof it works but I seem to remember it working this way but memory is a fickle thing I suppose :P
His intentions matter less than his actions in this case. If they can't exit the situation (without leaving the game or switching characters) they're literally stuck there waiting until the tank is done, sure technically they are free to get up and go afk but they can't play their character until the boss fight is over one way or the other which makes those characters hostages to the tanks whims.
I was not being positive on the reset thing I was simply commenting on the fact at least one guy in the group asked for a wipe to try again and no one seemed to disagree with that request in the group. Way I see it it's possible the warrior only left because the tank was being selfish but we will never know whether they could have tried again as four and it doesn't really matter either way.
At the end of the day this is a co-op based game mode where you are expected to work together with a group even if all to often we have to pick up someones slack in the group it's still supposed to be a team effort and the tanks actions here are ruining the fun of the game for the rest of the group which is the definition of griefing. That being said I don't think he deserves a report or a penalty as it's not like he kept them stuck for shits and giggles and if we start punishing every minor infraction then 80% (number made up don't quote me on this) of the playerbase would be penalised
@@madDjakni I've been told you can not leave at all, but who knows for sure. Never been in this situation obviously.
Also, you continue to confuse greifing for being rude.
Just because they want something, does not mean because he wants something else is breaking some kind of rule.
Tank shouldn’t be allowed to do this.
Why?
The DPS are Dough headed simpletons under the illusion they are pro due to the saturated self-induced intoxication of them selves.
The reality is, we Tanks carry so many groups. If I do 10 dungeons at +10. I would say around 3 of those groups MIGHT be a great group
where everyone knows what to do, and can survive as well.
But 7 out of that 10? I carry them. 100%. I carry them completely. People who don't tank, or who want you to believe they're that much better than you
would have you believe tanking is no more difficult than a DPS. it's simply not true. It isn't. Tanks follow DPS rotations just as well, including shuffling defensives that need to
be planned around. Tactics, pathing, positioning, and the perpetual baby sitting of other players.
People are going to be so mad when they realise how much they actually sucks, when tanks can't carry them anymore.
Coming on quite strong, but I have to say I agree. I think its even worse than how you lay it out though.
I would really say 100 percent of all groups at 10 are simply getting carried one way or another, but not always JUST by the tank.
There is NEVER a run of a 10 that I say all 5 players perform optimally, and that's why they are at the 10 range still.
But ya, I totally agree. If they ever had to work even harder, they would just crumble.
You can see this clear as day how many times people die to threat.
They clearly aren't prepared to do ANYTHING other than monitor their DPS output, and this is why it seems to me that they think they are successful.
They think being top of three DPS in a M+ that they upgraded means they are good players.
Its a trap, and it kills progression long term.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I agree completely. Couldn't say it any better really.
What amazes me the most is when I watch someone like in this video get themselves killed. And they blame me on spot.
The most toxic player is the one who THINKS he knows how to play and tries to tell others what to do only to keep getting himself killed and blame it on healer or me.
hahaha. From what I've played in Beta it's going to be a total shit show.
@@TheRandomDude-qy1ev Yup, and that type of player is everywhere in wow now. Its really quite scary!
Doing my best to educate and push back on this behavior but its slow-goings.