This is why your tank is dying on EDNA in Stonevault Mythic+ Pugs...
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- Опубліковано 5 жов 2024
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This has always been my m+ experience as a tank. Do hours of research before I even step foot in a key so I know what to expect. Watch ppl fail repeatedly and then get flamed for any of my perceived mistakes.
Ya, flamed for stuff people don't even understand fully. If this dude told me I got hit in the back I would lose my mind.
That is my experience as a healer as well. I did install that WA, btw.
Same experience. Thankfully I play with a static group so they learn quick!
@@heythereguysitsMetro totally unrealistic but there should be a cloak item that has bubbles of red paint, such that if you got hit on the back then the bubbles would burst
"Do you not see my unpainted back, huh? HUH?!?!"
Bro ur playing the game wrong. I do 10+ and learn on the fly. If you want to learn do some lower keys to get the hang of it.
As a long time healer main, I can say that this fight requires to you "unlearn" a lot of the skills you've built up. Many healers rely on general WA that highlight dispellable effects (with indicator and audio queue) as soon as any magic debuff goes on the tank. There have historically been a few fights where dispeling the tank is very important (like the last boss of Nokud). Letting that debuff sit on the tank for even 2-3 auto attacks puts them in lethal danger.
As the tank one thing that might help effectively communicate is you can Shift-Click on spells in the Dungeon Journal to post them in chat. To do this, Open your adventure guide. Click Stonevault -> EDNA -> Abilities -> Seismic Slam -> Seismic Reverb -> then hold shift and Click [Stone Shield]. This will put a link into your chat. It helpfully will also translate it to the party member's game language as well.
So you can say something like "Be sure to only dispel me During the [Seismic Slam] cast so I have [Stone Shield] when the cast ends" (with that bracketed text being the linked ability text from the book).
@@FMGHarlequin what I have done instead as the tank is just carry the group through the mechanic like I do normally in most other combat.
I don't use a WA for this, my most used macro is the / focus marco, put on boss ( I always put it on a boss or an important interrupt mob) , know the spell names, eye ball it! :)
@@jacktihs2963 You really should consider adding a sound to the cast, even if its not with the weak aura though. Plater can do that very easy and quickly. No reason not to add the layer of protection for your attention there. Its a very crucial mechanic to do well.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Fair point, it doesn't hurt I suppose. First need to time GB and then I got them all done on +2/3. Started a bit late but I always take my time to learn things well. That said, it's always good for people to learn spell names and what they do, esp if people want to time higher keys.
Thank you for the PSA on this fight. It'll make my job as a healer much easier. Even the rock boss has a ton of issues in low level groups
Ya the other bosses are even worse haha. This one is actually really easy!
nah first boss the only hard one of this dungeon, the rest of the dungeon is free loot
@@phoenixrising6006 good joke
not tho? 2nd boss is free since orb buff, 3rd boss you can cheese, last boss does nothing, its an easy key, siege and grim on the hand can go die in hellfire
Rule of thumb. Dispel when u see lasers going out. Because the tank buster happens at the last laser shot which is in the 6 second window.
No need for anything else other than "dispel when the cast starts." That cast is what kills the tank.
@@heythereguysitsMetro you're right, but a lot of healers are zeroed in on their raidframes and their feet when the tankbuster casts starts; everyone needs to be topped up before the stone break. The lasers aiming at your feet are harder to miss than the cast bar, and imo is the better rule of thumb when introducing someone to the mechanic.
@@zoegroark9567 just use the weak aura.
@@heythereguysitsMetro 100%, thanks for spotlighting it. Already downloaded it 👍🏻
@@heythereguysitsMetro You're doing exactly what you criticize in your video. The guy is pointing out a very good Rule of Thumb for the situation, and you are being dismissive of the rule (that works very well) and also not arguing the reasoning the other guy just gave... Why?
Seems to me, you don't understand what a "Rule of Thumb" means. If you do, there are zero reasons to antagonize the idea, if the rule works very well and the arrow lasers are so easy to spot... The timing works, that is all the matter, very good Rule of Thumb.
the weakaura "TWW by Causese" tells u exactly when to dispell the debuff , it even put a counter on your party frames.
Would you say that's a better one than the Elsemere one I linked?
@@heythereguysitsMetro dunno, i only used Causeses, he's making WA for each expansion and its one of the most downloaded WA for dungeons
@@heythereguysitsMetro I prefer that one aswell, but its complete pack with WA for all dungeons. So if people want something for only this mechanic it wont be a good option.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Causese is a full package of all things of note.
@@heythereguysitsMetro The guy in the video is using the Causese WA pack @aliodor was referencing. I use it as well.
I have been playing healer for this season. It's not obvious when you should dispel the mechanic. I knew about the buff the tank gained, but wasn't aware that the duration was so short as to not cover the tank buster. Similarly. I was also making the mistake of dispelling it too quickly.
In most of the keys I've done groups just muscle past E.D.N.A, either the tank isn't getting one-shot or the boss or boss dies before the third tankbuster.
Still, this is good information to know.
It is certainly good information to know.
they should change it so the buff persists until tank hit imo. i think 99% dont know this mechanic which is pretty bad design
Super awesome mechanic, I love collaborative interactions like this between tank and healer where its not just "use defensive" or "heal more"!
@@AlexSandilands ya this is a really cool mechanic tbh.
I prefer this over Lower Karazan's dispell boss
When the shaman repeatedly wrote u got hit in back I spit out my drink..good video and important to point out this topic.
Funny stereotypical thing there huh? Feels like a situation where the tank and healer are fighting as the adults, and the kids are chiming in.
@@heythereguysitsMetro As you said If you have no idea, it's best to just say nothing, but unfortunately that's very difficult for many people. (in and outside of the game 🫠)
I would say.. they have no clue.. how the hell someone gets to lvl 10 keys if they dont even know what they doing thet shaman was lost
Btw, im really enjoying your streams lately. Already looking forward to the next one. Keep them up, Sir
@@evildarkeevildark5943 you can get somewhat carried to 2.5k just spamming the dungeons over and over. Was shocking to me too though
Here's my perspective as the person playing in the video:
So I know what the mechanics are for the boss, but just knowing what the mechanics are and playing them properly at a challenging key level are two different things contrary to what some people in the comments seem to think.
This is the 2nd SV on a +10 I ran, so knowing I would have difficulty with this dispel mechanic I downloaded that Causesee weak aura before this run.
I had been told multiple times before on SV that I should break a spike and since it's not such a big deal to do since you can death strike back up I thought it better to just do it whether it's good advice or not, this is something I've found to be quite common in pugging, you just sometimes are better off doing something simply to avoid conflict - same goes for when dps complain about a certain mob that is totally viable to pull (this happens all the time). Anyhow it ended up killing me as I panicked after being killed by the buster already and stupidly took a spike right after the rez. This is the point people start saying I get hit in the back, which obviously I know I did not but it is certainly not worth my time stoking an argument about something as pointless as that when I want to try figure out the boss (this type of incorrect call on what caused a wipe/death happens a lot and isn't worth getting sucked into when people are already so fragile about being wrong in the game).
The main point I wanted to bring up with this video is that (1) often you need to play out the mechanics in a key that does actually challenge you fully in order to learn it properly rather than just read mechanics or watch a guide and (2) if people weren't so arrogant and afraid of admitting they could do something better then the pug world would be so much better off - if these guys spent 5 minutes to actually just try the boss like I asked we'd all come away with it knowing how to best do the boss next time and a failed key rather than just a failed key.
Thanks for the video on this metro and sorry for the long comment
Back when I was playing a healer. Whenever I saw the glowing dispel thingy I would instantly dispel it. I imagine a lot of healers do the same.
100 percent. but week three, time to start learning the fights.
Huh, as a DPS I didn't even realize this mechanic existed. I guess I've been lucky that I've run with healers who knew what was up and did it without any discussion needed. Thanks for the PSA.
@@SoleaGalilei ya no problem. Now you know people aren't just getting hit in the back.
There is only one person in the group that genuinely cares why the tank is dying, which is the tank. Consider renaming the video to get attention from other roles like "EDNA's odd healing mechanic". Most of the healers will still say that "I didn't have problem with this before".
@@LaC2uSKA ya one literally did in this comment section hahaha
I think the mechanic itself is interesting, but when you factor in how the game is designed as a whole, I can understand perfectly well why healers would fail on this. Like 99% of the time, you need to dispel as fast as possible. When I first went in here, our group had the same issue. Healer dispelled me instantly and at first I didn't even notice the shield because for some reason it's displayed as a debuff, rather than a buff. I just assumed that I had to rotate in defensives for Seismic Smash. I'm lucky enough to play with friends though, so after a couple of deaths I just had a discussion with the healer and we figured out how to deal with it. You don't really need a weakaura for it either, although it obviously helps. But it is actually quite simple. Seismic Smash is a 3,6 sec cast, and the shield last for 6 seconds, so basically just dispel the tank when the casts starts, and you'll have around 3 seconds of overlap with the shield.
Ya, I could also just recommend a plater script that plays a sound for the spell. Having the sound really helps reenforce it and ensures you will never miss it.
great PSA here man, i never fully put this one together until i insta-dispelled on mistweaver several times thinking i was a god....and then tanked it in a 8+ on my brewmaster/blood DK
@@positronic247 haha glad to have helped and glad to hear you figured it out already.
It’s a problem with game design. The game does not tell you in any way that tank gets DR after a dispel unless you specifically open a dungeon journal and read about this mechanic. The visual of the “shield” is hardly seen as tank pov, and as any other character it is almost invisible. And when tank dies you just see an overkill which makes you think tank does not use its CDs.
true but its a high key most ppl suffered enough to have experiance..
is it? like you said it's in the dungeon journal, you wipe to the mechanic once and the solution is immediately present there. it seems people got far too used to weakaura/bigwigs/dbm being available so quickly that they never check it anymore.
The fact that you basically require mods to play this game tells you the designers majorly dropped the ball.
@@evildarkeevildark5943 Swirlies / soaks / debuffs / stucks tend to be visually rich and one shot you in lower keys. This tank buster can be mitigated by using CDs or even regular tank mitigation until higher keys and when you wipe to it, it almost doesn’t show you visually that.
I would say it COULD be designed better for sure. Like maybe some big visual. But no, this is a total cop out otherwise. You see the additional buff go on the tank when you dispel, don't you?
If you don't, you have even more to work on.
As a healer who just figured out this mec last week I knew EXACTLY what this video was gonna be about LMFAO
@@ltdow94 haha well glad you already knew about it at least.
Same, going to do a SV+2 on her right now :). It is always good to read boss spells as well in the ingame "guide"
Letme explain, i play main prot warrior and i have a guardian druid alt.
I am not aware of 50% of the tank busters, because i can block or spell reflect almost all of them.
I am actually learning the mechanics when i play my alt, because shield block is an overpowered ability.
Stuff like this makes it that groups dont know the dungeon, because for some tank specs the tank busters are a joke.
EDNA hits my prot warrior for max 3-4 mil damage on a +10
Ya no doubt, warrior is very strong for this fight.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Thanks for the explanation video. It's very clear what happens when you see it and when you read the dungeon journal info about this ability but due to playing Prot Warrior, I too did not really notice this as a big mechanic that needs to be played correctly. I notice I get hit for a lot of damage when the tank buster comes and do a demoralizing shout or shield wall but even ignore pain and shield block are enough to tank it on +10 as Warri.
theres literally 0 mechanics this fight for warrior I close my eyes
One might cheese lower keys, but at higher keys, once can't cheese things. Then again, isn't spell reflect a very viable strategy ? Good skilled warriors know how to use it well!
@@jacktihs2963 Spell reflect is better at high key levels, not worse
This USED to be able to be parried/dodged, confirmed with Yoda in week one, meaning you didn't get debuff for the follow up tank buster. This has been fixed last reset and you can no longer avoid the debuff at all, I tested with AMS up to try not get it and still had it applied - This wasn't in patch notes for what ever reason!!
Oh great tip. Something actually important there, wish I knew that haha. Tried it the one time and regretted it, so never thought to try it again.
As a healer i honestly did not know this. I think we are taught to always dispel asap when we can, but I have never lost a tank in this fight, think an animation of some sort, or a diffrent picture on the dispel instead of a generic volcano something would help alot for the learning curve, or it being a group thing, so u dispel and everyone gets a smaller shield, personally im also more fan of a shield vs a DR, usually alot easier to see :D
A visual would help for sure. But the tank gets a separate debuff when you dispel. Are you just not checking to see what that is at all?
@@heythereguysitsMetro honestly no, done it on a 10 multiple times never thought about, usually i read the debuff a tank gets here early season, not sure if the tooltip says gives dr buff... and i would never have checked my tank for a buff right after a dispel, that is not how healers are taught ;)
Great educational video!! you should do this for all the dungeons!
@@sleepingmartian1487 thanks but there isn't really a situation like this in any other dungeon. Thankfully.
In our group, we let the healer stand behind a DPS for the rocks spawn.This will line up two, then the healer breaks two and we leave one up all fight. This gives the healer control over the damage going out.
okay
Such a great discussion that wowhead went ahead and made an article about this exact mechanic.
The problem is that the game is designed around reading tooltips but most people playing wow sadly cant read 😢
haha
Yeah unfortunately this sin was gotten away with for all the lower keys, 0, heroic. It's only when it starts 1 shotting people start to notice. I whisper my healer at the start of each key to make sure, so they don't feel called out in party chat.
Shield boss is another sin that many are learning. Too many either grab the balls way too soon before the shield, or not at all.
Ya this dungeon is rife with this sort of thing.
I didn't realize what this did when I healed +0 and then +4. I did wonder what's going on in +4, +6 as tank. Looked it up and found solution. We're just so taught to dispel things asap, most of the time you wipe because you waited at all. Most healers will probably figure this out when they start depleting, or if tank blames them. It's reasonable to then look thru the spells in adventurer's guide etc. to understand the fight. Like this priest had previously done 3+, 7+ and 9+ only. It's possible for tanks to carry your lack of knowledge still in those keys.
@@Ougagagoubou ya well id hope people would notice that when you dispel they tank gets a new spell on them haha
We really need to have conversation on how toxic people are on M+...like WTF. I do understand that some stuff is frustrating and that people are doing stupid things but come on. I've read so many nasty things in group chats, I probably have stories for days.
Been having it brother. Keep having it and don't stop. If people treat you poorly, don't let them get away with it. Tell them its not okay and eventually if everyone pushes back they will have to reconsider their actions.
The problem is they think its totally fine to do this, and that needs to change first and foremost.
the harder they make m+ the more toxic it is. thats what ive noticed since shadowlands when m+ is easy and fun like in BFA people were willing to help me learn and invite me to 11's and 12's without even knowing how to play modern wow. But mechanics are so hard now theres no room for people learning your just holding everyone else back. you didnt play the beta and spend 100$ to learn mechanics must be a bad player. thats how people think. dragonflight season 4 was fairly easy at +10 and below and ive never seen less toxicity then that season.
i think the problem there is that other tanks DON'T need to do this mechanic, they can just tank the hit. Bear and warriors tank this super easy. Also the first hit will be taken without the dispel, so they assume you can do the same for the other.
@@reversamente I assume that's not true on higher keys. If it's doing 11m on a ten what's it doing on a 12 haha. I know warrior is solid. But idk
@@heythereguysitsMetro well, as a paladin i can basically ignore this mech entirely, even in templar. a lot of tanks ive noticed arent anticipating hits anymore, they are mitigating reactively...which is a no no.
@@timcherry7271 how much is it hitting you for and on what level?
@@heythereguysitsMetro on average not more than several million and even then thats on the high end, highest ive ran atm is a 9 on tyrannical. but, i dont use the cookie cutter builds most everyone uses from wow head, im runnin gbastion of light with resolute defender and zealots pargon. Alternating between these seeminglky never ending cds, stacked with basically a 40 second ardent defender im constantly swathed in never ending mitigation allowing me to blast in templar, granted i also have the current bis swarm trinket as well and have a weak aura for my eye of tyr.
@@heythereguysitsMetro also all prot pallys should have a set build for lightsmith to swap trees use the 60 min lightsmith exclusive weap enchant then swapping back to temp
This reminds me of a run I was tanking in SBG in Season 1 of DF where I kept getting blamed for wipes on the last boss. The truth was that the DPS were touching the line of ghosts, clipping it slightly, and they had JUST hotfixed it. Not even sure why they thought it was on me, but sometimes people just want someone to blame, whether it's true or not.
Yup absolutely. Same thing happened to me with a cheese strat in Temple of the Jade Serpent in df s1. They hotfixed it, I didn't know that, and people keep bashing on me doing it wrong lol...
That's wild. As a prot warrior I really don't have to worry about this mechanic, but I notice every time the healer messes it up (Every time I don't explain it). I'd love seeing a video like this about debuff pulls in siege of boralus too. The poison near the third boss, rotting wound, and the slash from the mobs right after the first boss. These pulls could be so easy with a mass CC but your group never helps you out, so you either kite or get deleted.
That's not a situation I have ran into myself. Perhaps because I'm a Blood DK haha. Sounds like its Magic damage!
@@heythereguysitsMetro The slash is a bleed, so physical. Singing Steel is the spell name. it stacks for each riptide shredder in the pull, and its baseline damage is 360k a second per stack. The one from the monkeys is a disease with heal negation (Rotting Wound 25% a stack, there's 2 mobs that cast it in the pull before the spotter + sniper pack near the third boss), and the last is poison which realistically can be dealt with by a single stun so it isn't a huge deal, but the cast going off is still massive magic damage.
@@nickolasdalimonte9641 Gotcha. Have yet to run into much difficulty on the trash in there. Singing Steel I have though for sure. You can stop it, but its really just a little overtuned. Just better be ready for CDs.
Really appreciate the explanation of this mechanic. I play brewmaster and have run this a handful of times on 9 or 10 and never felt in danger, although that was always with the same friend healing so maybe he just carried. Did a run as do’s with main raid tank repeatedly dying and had no idea how.
I imagine Brewmaster is really strong here tbh. Idk what 10m damage of stagger looks like, but you should never get one shot at least. Even if they don't dispel you, its probably very safe.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I am not playing BRM, so I can't be sure. But I would imagine that they can actually dispell themselves twice in this fight with diffuse magic. I am surprised that so many BRM apparently don't pay attention to their debuffs, I would imagine that you can also do a lot of dmg with that.
@@ThomasBachler01 Oh ya, probably!
I've definitely had some weird runs where the tanks just don't get the debuff. I'm pretty sure it's from parry/dodge and they just need to change that so you either cannot parry/dodge the mechanic or you always get the debuff even if you parry/dodge. It feels dumb if you have to purposefully turn around to for sure get the debuff and seems way too counterintuitive for people to learn. Especially when it's so important for the tank to wall the initial slam and then have the healer dispel every subsequent one after that.
This dungeon owns unsuspecting tanks. I've had so many die within seconds on the first hallway pull where people have been lusting. In the Forge area, tanks don't understand/respect the debuff that's applied by the aspiring forgehand and they either pull too many or don't try to kite it out to reset their stacks. I've seen them frontload their CD's on these packs too instead of backload them when they have high stacks and need to start kiting. I've seen too many tanks pull the double Forge Loader pack which is impossible on a key with Fortified. If you get bad RNG and they target the same person to put the dot on, then they just instantly die. If that's the healer, then you have to brez or are probably losing more people to the next set of debuffs. In the Skarmorak boss room, I've had tanks run ahead and pull the Despoiler with the Cursed Speakers, not stop the silence cast and it goes on me and we all die to the AoE. Or even the final boss where they sit with the debuff forever, long after everyone else had cleared. Some tanks can do this better, but I've had too many tanks come way too close to dying for no reason and I have to blow everything to keep them alive.
@@ZACKandATTACK hmm I would need some visual evidence of that. I have never noticed not getting the debuff outside of using AMS. I bet spell reflect does it too. I don't see why it would be related to Parry but maybe.
I tried to tank a +3 on a somewhat undergeared Protection Paladin, and I was rusty and we didn't finish that run when we went over the time limit and the key holder quit the group.
@@dyingearth k
your output is unreal 🎉 thank you so much!!
@@DaikoLP strike while the iron is hot, as they say! Won't have a video here tomorrow though, going to an amusement park! Got another review for Monday and then back to streaming!
Personally i didn't even know you supposed to save the dispell to the next tank buster because tanks usually just save some mitigation and survive the hit with low health.
@@birdmocking8369 right, well now you know. Going to be a big problem past 12.
I guess i've been very lucky, My tanks haven't been dying on EDNA. I dispel that shit immediately when i see it. Great to know that it's to be dispelled to deal with the tank buster.
Might just be a key level thing too. But certain tanks are capable of surviving it easier, like Prot Warrior.
I wouldn't call it lucky though haha. I have basically assumed my healers don't know the mechanic so I just am forced to carry them. Not a good thing.
I am not even an elite healer but just watched a Quazii video- so even I know that you delay the dispel so the 50% damage taken reduction saves the tank from the buster.
Minimal effort to know the fight. That is too much for the modern WoW player
Sadly, ya. The biggest question is how they get away with it for so long.
Every Stonevault I've done I just tell the healer how to do the fight. about 95% of them didn't know they needed to leave the dot up and dispel before the smash
@@jaaq3887 ya I tried to ask and people would say they understood them still just dispel wrong haha. Easier to just do it myself sadly.
There's some dungeons that after a certain key level that I'll only take a healer I know, or take my favorite healer buddy, Toli, that I've known since BfA. Especially this season, there's been a lot of BAD pugs with people who have not learned the fights yet. This has been the season of premades for me, and rarely playing dps in keys.
Ya this is the worst season for pugging ever, for sure. Still great healers out there though! We have ran into some REALLY good ones.
Thank you I was looking for this WA, big help!
Glad to have helped!
What's the secret to the cube boss tank buster, "igneous hammer?"
I (prot pally) was tanking an 8 just fine up until that boss, and about 1/2 way through the fight I was getting nearly one shot when that mechanic would happen.
It was hitting me for something like 6 mill health. I would essentially run out of defensives before we could kill it. I got flamed really hard for it by the entire group, but I genuinely could not figure out what was going wrong.
I wish I recorded it. I ended up timing a different 8 in SV with another group in the same week, and that ability didn't even really phase me that time.
No trick to it, as far as I can see. Just does damage and its magic so you need a different style of play for it than most.
Record the runs and make sure you use the Damage Type Weak aura so we can see how much you take at a glance!
As a pally I’ve just been cycling eye of tyr +argent defender, guardian of kings and bubble until the dps kill it or I run out of big defensive this is big for me
Best way I found to survive this is to just assume you're on your own the entire time and rotate every CD you have.
I mainly tank on blood and I tombstone + lichborne the first one, rune tap + vamp the second, tap + tomb the next, on so on
Unfortunately I've learned you simply will either
1: Be dispelled immediately
or
2: Not be dispelled at all / too late
so it's best to just assume your healer sees the funny debuff man on their frames and dispel it immediately, which dooms you, and theyre not gonna hear it any other way because the window is so small to get it right
Should just be a pass/fail, imo. Dispel the tank before the next or he dies, or just remove it entirely and re-work it
That's how I have handled it too. Not worth the guess work if you know you can live it anyway.
@@heythereguysitsMetro
yep, unfortunately probably not going to work in higher ones but at a certain point it's ups to everyone to understand at least boss mechanics lol
I'm honestly shocked that this happens a lot. The week before the season started a looked at a dungeon guide and i have not had a tank die on this fight all season. I recently timed my first +10 and never had a problem with this boss. I just Sac the tank on the first smash and use the dispel dr for every other one. This just seems to me like the age old problem that people would rather brick a billion keys and fight each other before anyone of them takes the 5 minutes to look up a guide on it.
Ya, well god forbid you use a guide. Some of these comments really scare me, blaming the game and stuff. Glad you already knew it though!
To be fair it wasn't 4 people who had no idea what's going on, it was 5 people. It's actually kind of sad that a full group can be doing 10's without fundementally understanding this fight. My main is prot warr so this mechanic is legitimately unnoticed, because it does nothing with or without a dispel. I would always see my health get chunked a little, I'd see the debuff, dbm will literally say "dispel", i'd see 50% dmg reduction on dispel and thought why is that even a thing.
Did it a single time on my dk and boy, instantly educated myself on what it actually was.
To be fair to who? You just misunderstood what I said. I said "four people admitting they don't know what's happening." The other guy is just not speaking. Probably because he doesn't know too, but that's a different issue.
Nice catch man. Doing the work spreading the knowledge ty!
Thanks.
Would you ever consider making Tank POV dungeon guides for each of the dungeons in the mythic plus season?
They are hard to do because you either do it at the start of the season, when you still have a lot to learn, to potentially help people with your knowledge, or you wait until the end of the season when you for sure know everything, and by then no one else is looking for that info.
So, basically, no. Not my cup of tea. If there is ever a way to update a video, I would do it for sure. But I do not like publishing a guide with incomplete knowledge.
Rare brew W i don't think i've ever been dispelled on this fight and half of the time I just dodge it, you can force a dodge 100% by turning your back for mastery stacks but I don't plan on doing anything above a +11
Ya, brew must be great for this one!
Dude thats crazy, been running in a premade and no one knew this. We've been doing 10's but not timing them. As a Gdruid I have either barkskin or SI for the slam. Then when I was running out of those I was yelling for a sac or some external lol. This is gonna make that boss so much easier holy shit.
haha well you know now at least!
Yeah same, if i ever fail the dispel because i'm topping people
It's instant Pain Suppression (50% DR as Disc Oracle)
how tf are they in a +10 and dont know the boss mechanics. shit blows my mind
Sadly after 18 runs I haven't seen it done perfectly myself either. Just very easy to get carried by raw numbers atm.
Badly tuned game. Theyre able to jusy out dps the mechanics at lower keystones and so never had to learn.
tbh I tanked this boss multiple times on 8 to 10 and I didn't know it either. But I guess either my healers knew, or Shield Block + Ignore Pain lets you just easily survive this
@@_reenzane yea, prot warrior is real strong this season for the amount of armor and physical damage they can mitigate. Me on me DH struggle sometimes and stay at like 10-25% life in fights for longer than I feel comfortable with lol.
Just tanks Who know. Mec and do cds right time and insane dps. No one learns mec
If someone asks to finish the key i'd always comply if it seems doable. 3-5 tries is fine when there is progress to see. I don't get people who just bail and leave 4 people hanging... Never got this elitist attitude of "but but i'm a little snowflake and only do smooth keys" ;)
Especially when you are as braindead as that paladin.
@@heythereguysitsMetro True. Had someone with 2500 score fall down in gb twice to the same gap in a bridge yesterday. Guess wasn't his/her day :D It was the healer though so that key way broken so bad ...
thank god someone explaining , apreciate the guide
@@sharkstaint1373 happy to have helped.
i did this dungeon just on +8 as a monk tank, I was a little bit wondering why the dmg incoming was that high, but I did survive, maybe monks are good as well for this fight because the take only 55% of the dmg directly, the other 45% they get as a dot
Ya monk would be great for this mechanic.
I was tanking this on my DK on an 8. He killed me twice and i couldnt figure out what was wrong. Thankfully everyone in the pug was cool. Using my cooldowns and saving my death strike for right after the hit kept me up. Side note i would soak one of the spikes so the group wouldnt take the full aoe damage.
@@SteveSchweichler it's a fun fight as a dk of you do it this way tbh.
brewmaster can dodge the ability I don't think anyone else can though. And you know how you do that you give your back to the boss 5-6 seconds before the special comes out to get enough dodge chance to just cheese the special lol
@@SuperGtimk5 I have parried it I'm pretty sure.
any one of them could have opened the dungeon book and took a look at the boss' abilities but people keep guessing/flaming
and usually, you can see that at the end of the dungeon, the one with the big mouth is top dmg taken in elitism helper. I don't like to use that addon, but it helps give me an idea on how well did we handle the dungeon and slaps the idiots with a reality check
In general I agree, but this is much worse than that really. To be THIS clueless about the mechanic is something else entirely. Especially those DPS.
@@heythereguysitsMetro yeah and to be fair, blizzard can do a better job to visualize things like that on the healer's UI, since not everyone is aware that weak auras exist
i think if m0 wasnt as easy as it was, more people would have to open dungeon journal and read what the boss does.
ya zero was a big mistake there. But keys are not easy. People are just getting carried and leaving when they aren't. This one is on the playerbase for sure.
dod the same boss today and went through the same stuff. i also didn't know the boss as a tank 😂 but now i know
@@ic3t3ap3ach glad to hear!
Stonevault is easy my favourite dungeon of the season. Love a traditional 'indoor' dungeon dive, fun trash and bosses.
I don't dislike it either. Its just filled with hard bosses.
The bigger part here is that warrior-druid-monk and even VDH will survive this just by rotating the regular stuff, even on a +12.
Since PWar and druid are the most popular tank right now, most healer have no clue BDK need that dispell-debuff
I don't buy that they would easily survive it on a 12. If he takes 11m on a 10, how much are you taking on a 12? How much do you reliably mitigate with just "regular stuff" as prot? How much health do you have?
@@heythereguysitsMetro but the warrior don't take 11m.
As you said, it's physical, not magical. Warrior laugh at physical damage. Casually sitting at near 60% DR just from armor, 16% from defensive stance, 6% from punish, 10% from mountain thane thunderclap, 13-15% vers ( but the DK have similar amounts), 25% from demo shout which is always available and oh, shield block, of course, which add another 40%... and then wathever the augmentation evoker adds.
edit: 9.5 mil HP without endurance training, 10.5 mil with.
my BDK sits at 50% ish armor with maxed bone shield charge, I'll assume that Pwar passive DR (like punish and Tclap) roughly equals BDK passive DR... the warrior still have 16% DR from Dstance, 10% from armor, 25% from demo shout (available for each one) and 40% block (100% chance) over the BDK... in BDK term it's like having 3X IBF for every slam.
A lot of the perceived difficulty this season really is players refusing to learn anything. Trying to do any alt keys is a nightmare, the quality of player is so low you go in some keys just expecting to brick, even if they're low and easy. They time a key and think they've mastered it, when in reality they've limped through the whole thing.
Yup and the leaver mentality makes it even worse. Game has serious issues ATM.
Its can be dodged as brewmaster with higher stacks of elusive brawler. Idk if it can be parried or not. I dont run a tank that parrys.
We break 2 at a time in our guild group
gotcha
Never had a problem. I just tell my healer to not dispell me and i'm fine, weirdly. I am a warrior though.
Bad advice. They need to learn the fight properly.
blizz reallly fucked up not letting people discover these mechanics in m0 at the start of the expansion
I mean they didn't stop anyone. People just do zero research. I learned these things on the beta.
Paladin tank here, once i run out of my cd's i pray to god the healer knows when to dispel, tried to explain it got flamed anyway lol
I imagine its easy as any block tank. But I know Paladin is in a weaker place right now.
blows my mind that people running a +10 dont know the fight mechanics fully.... i figured this out as a healer while running mythic 0 before m+ released.
Ya sadly a lot of healers are just getting carted along barely keeping up with the minimum their role requires.
I don't know how you can dispel a 30 second debuff, see ANOTHER DEBUFF go on the tank, and think "ya nothing else to learn there."
Has to be just total inattentiveness, and I assume that's because they are overwhelmed with the healing that already exists. Ironically, they are making even more work for themselves.
Because the M+ squish has overlaps in terms of player skill ceiling.
I'm sure Blizzard thought it was the best idea to have good players teach lower skilled players and it would push everyone's skill higher.
But the reality is, lots of players that shouldn't be at this level are and they still don't understand strats because they just don't care.
Sure we just started the season, but i bet you 100% that these players are the same that before the M+ got release said that M0 were easy while probably not playing them or outgearing them and forcing their way while ignoring the strats instead of practice them.
This is the reason i believe everyone should at least play few dungeons as healer and tank few times to better understand all the points of view.
It helps to see other roles for sure. But those dudes playing DPS in this key would play tank and then just blame the healer, or vice versa. Its an attitude problem first and foremost.
having healers wait to dispel is really against the grain of normal gameplay.
Agreed. But we are three weeks in now. Time to figure it out!
I don't even have to get dispelled on my prot warrior. It's blockable.
Wow. 18? I’m struggling with 6s. Mistcaller in Mists has a similar punishing mechanic where only the tank can interrupt and if you don’t it 1-shots you.
@@OneNvrKnoz I meant I did the dungeon 18 times so far not that I did it on a +18 haha
@@heythereguysitsMetro ah, that makes me feel a bit better; I knew you pushed high keys!
@@OneNvrKnoz Ya well no one in the world is even close to 18 haha
11 is my limit atm! Working on 12s this coming week.
The scary part is their doing a 10 and have no idea how the mechanic works
I said exactly this in the video, did I not?
I don't think it's not a bad mechanic or should be nerfed in any way. It's a very interesting mechanic - however, I don't believe we've seen a mechanic similar to this in WoW for a while (Or at least that I can remember in a dungeon in the past Xpac or two), it probably is an issue because you could survive it on smaller keys/ M0s, or at least I wasn't getting one shot by it on 0s. I've run into the same situation where it's being dispelled immediately. A nail-biter as a bdk but doable.
Ya, don't think this has ever existed in dungeons tbh.
How are people doing +10 and have no idea how this mechanic works? The first week m+ came out I did a +3 and my tank died to the EDNA tank buster.
My initial reaction isn't yell at the tank, it was to
1) check the log what killed my tank
2) READ THE DUNGEON GUIDE THAT TELLS YOU WHAT THE BOSS DOES.
3) realize that tank dot debuff gives you a DR buff for a few seconds after the dispell.
4) talk to my tank that I would dispel the debuff before the tank buster he agrees sounds like a plan and then bam
5) we kill the boss and finish the key.
How are people getting to a +10 without learning mechanics. They got carried so hard.
Yup just getting carried. And then they have attitudes too which is even worse.
All you need to see is the guy took 11 million damage and you'd wake up.
@heythereguysitsMetro exactly. These are the people who complain about no tanks and are the reason why no tanks want to pug.
I bet you they don't even know how to find deaths in details to check what kills people.
This is the problem with trying to explain mechanics during a m+ (lol in a +10 as well). You don't have time to sit about discussing it and end up not fully explaining things, leading to misunderstandings.
As a healer main, I'm well aware of this mechanic, but it's amazing how many healers don't. Watching a friend heal one recently, I had to explain it to him during the boss (was watching him on discord). This was a 7 or something, so the tank wasn't in too much danger, but still... gotta read up on those mechanics guys and gals.
Right, we show a good example of that in the video. I believe the healer misinterprets the tank there.
I've pugged maybe 15 Stonevaults so far (most my keys are with a static group) and ONE pug healer knew the dispell mechanic on EDNA, a barely 2k shaman; thankfully I can live it with Shield Block and Wall or Shield Block and enough Ignore pain on a +9. We took healers up to 2500io and none of them knew about this and many didn't know about the balls on the blue rock guy. We asked them how much they paid for hands-off carries cause clearly they didn't know what they were doing and they definitely weren't the ones that timed a 10 on this dg on their character.
In comparison, my group knew the very first time we did that boss in M0 cause we read the debuff before dispelling when we saw it lasted 30 seconds. A magic debuff lasting 30 seconds that's only applied on the tank OBVIOUSLY has a mechanic around it or else it wouldn't even be there.
I'm starting to believe pugging is harmful to people's skills.
Lots of players have high RIO without knowing the strats...
Nah nothing to do with pugging, there's a Blizzard fault and player fault here.
Same with raiding, some players have low skill but are good at coordination.
Some players are skilled but bad at coordination.
You have other examples like, at higher keys lots of players still don't know how to LoS or use the environment to choose where the mob goes while this is the first thing i've learned in 2005 or it might just be they expect someone else to kick the mob or pull it or heal them, can be anything.
@@VDHmain great point in the duration. I bet there is no other spell in the game that long.
It's suprisingly common for good healers to just power through the healing on +10 stonevault on the rock boss. As a guardian druid tank I haven't gotten the dispel timed properly in any +10 stonevaults I've done so far and I live without issue. It seems like decent healers / tanks don't really need to worry about the tank buster on boss one or the extra healing throughput from the balls on blue boss until +11 or higher. Especially because dps for some reason learnt very quickly that the balls on rock boss increases their dps, so the shield phase is often over in less than 6 seconds on a +10.
It's very easy to survive as a prot warrior, even when the healer doesn't know the mechanic
I simply don't understand the playerbase. People complain keys are to hard, meanwhile we're seing a FULL GROUP not knowing mechanics on the first boss in a +10. Like what the fuck are people expecting?
hahaha
Right, that actually proves that the game is actually TOO EASY!
Well said!
Wow yea i run mostly with prot warrior. But i did notice tanks would randomly get one shot. I thought it just hit reaally hard.
@@MrMcswiggens haha nope!
people die on the first boss? I thought the only tricky fight was 2 machine speakers.
What kind of nonsense comment is this? I literally showed you footage of people dying on it.
Why would any healer play without WA in keys like 10?
it is basically req just as is req in PVP to have all the tools to know what and when to do stuff..
People these days are crazy and then blame each other for failing
@@lukeluckynblue1873 they don't know they need it.
That aside, holding the dispel for ~25 sec or so (initial tankbuster to next tankbuster) is REALLY unintuitive
I agree it is for sure.
healer main here, watching your vid i figured i was doing the dispel wrong, 6s before the cast with dbm as a tracker for the smash.. not understanding that the spell actually hits 4sec after what dbm tells me... pretty disturbing mechanic ngl
Ya, just use the weak aura, or make a plater script to make a sound when he casts the tank breaker. Its basically just like an interrupt with a dispel instead.
This fight is just really unfair in my opinion as a healer. I have no issue with the mechanic itself, I think it's kinda cool. But the fire beams deal such ungodly amounts of damage and happen so frequently that it takes most of my mental bandwidth to deal with that damage and then setup for the next one. On this fight specifically I really can't be arsed to also have to watch the tankbuster, a mechanic which isn't naturally highlighted in my UI because on most fights tankbusters do not cause problems if the tank plays correctly.
@@SmugHomura it's not something you CAN "not be arsed" with. If you aren't able to keep up with the mechanics of this fight you won't be upgrading this key. It gets way harder from here. Might be best to try a different spec or role.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I mean it was a figure of speech but maybe that didn't come across well. My point was that it's a good mechanic, but maybe on the wrong boss. Obviously I do what's expected of me, so suggesting I reroll is a bit harsh 😅
@@SmugHomura Ya as an american I still dont full understand that slang. When I have heard it from my English friends it always sounds like "I'm not going to do this, sorry. Too much effort" or something like that.
So ya, this mechanic is NOT that. It can not be ignored. And it sounded like you were saying you were struggling to keep up with the mechanics of the fight, so I suggested rethinking your role, as this is not even close to the hardest fight to heal this season.
rune tap also gives flat 40% damage reduction
@@vladislavzdravkov4057 rune tap is 20. Wouldn't recommend taking that talent just for this fight especially when the healer is just doing it wrong.
So wild to me that people will so confidentally be wrong about something and call someone out. "Got hit in the back??" is that even a thing for these casted tank busters? Haven't heard of that issue since classic lol.
Btw, I joined the discord. UA-cam name used to be Trevor G but I changed it to match my wow name. I've been recording my experiences pugging in the community and have a few clips you might enjoy.
Absolutely NOT a thing lol...
Embarrassing to even type that out in a 10.
I hooked you up with permissions! Thanks for going out of your way to change the name and make that all easier for me.
I'm pretty sure if you parry it you don't actually get the debuff as well. I think on a 12 VDH just dies if they parry one and miss the next(without an external), on a 10 I can barely survive it with just fel dev. Blizzard should either make it non parryable/dodgeable or make it give you the debuff anyway.
@@SkimNms some one else suggested that. This is not my experience but if you have video of that happening I'm happy to take a look. If it's for sure happening I agree with you.
@@heythereguysitsMetro yeah I gotta start recording. I heard monks can just dodge it everytime lucky them
@@SkimNms ya would be easy to test as monk at least.
Yeah idk what's wrong with these season. I didn't have a SINGLE PuG healer in this season that played this mechanic correctly. Even in 10s with 2.5k and above.
I even had a Hpal with 2.5k RIO in a dawn +10 the other day who didn't know what to do with the Orb on the second boss and just baited it straight into the wall. After it pretty much 1 hit the entire group (except for the tank) he said and I quote: "Huh? I didn't get hit by it".
Idk what's happening but having people who don't know basic boss mechanics in 10s is wild this season even though 10s feel harder than 20s in previous seasons.
The bigger problem is they refuse to learn and even have attitudes about it. Idk man, the healer population has gotten really bad, its so sad to see it. Look at al the excuse making in this comment section too. Usually you don't see that in a video like this.
Its to a point now where I just expect healers to do nothing, which is really sad as some one who used to main Holy Paladin.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Literally just did a Stonevault +10. Healer dispelled instantly. I went out of def CDs, got 1 shot because he didn't top me fast enough before the tank buster.
I tried to explain the mechanic to him. He went full balistics and told me that I don't even know the tank mechanics..
Idk.. weird people.
I’d run keys with that guy… people suck. Also ellesmere has a weak aura that tells you when to dispell
Guess you didn't watch the video huh
Here I am, a new tank, running these on follower-mode to try to understand some of the mechanics before I walk into any group content. Despite all the research ahead of time, still nervous as heck to walk into a M0 or +2/+3 without having these mechanics 100% understood, and these folks are trucking into a +10?
Ya, and what's so bad about it all is, they aren't even learning things that are obviously being failed right in front of their face.
I can see why it might suck if you learn that many players are able to learn on the fly and can skip the preliminary research phase. But its a bitter pill to swallow to know many never learn at all, and simply get carried the whole way.
I've never figured out why ppl get so rude about it
They internalize these problems and take offense to them. Usually because they can't admit that learning and failure exists as part of the same process in improvement.
Have you ever thought about doing your own guide videos?
The way you describes things from a tanks view is interesting.
I DID my own guides in the past, yes. I stopped doing them because I didn't like how difficult it was to get footage of the failures you'd need to show in order to explain it properly. And then other people started doing them better than me so I just gave up.
prot war, bear, brewmaster rotate personals on the tank buster and seem to be fine even in 11's
icebound fortitude and youre fine too or vamp blood+ foul bulwark
All tanks are fine I imagine. That's why I explained it the way I did in the video...
Have played for 19 years and for the last 5 grouping has been ugly.... people have forgotten their classes and how to CC, ranged DPS q for melee dungeons and melee q for ranged... as a tank I think about the welfare of the entire team... 99% of dps think about details.... an addon which imho has single handedly destroyed this game... everyone has some kind of buff, dispell, interrupt but they wont use them because "my dps dropped by 25k/s"....... DPS does NOT win dungeons, esp now with the 15 sec penalty... 4 deaths is 1 min gone.... we are at a point now where any more than 16 deaths is a brick, 16 deaths is 4 mins.... thats a boss fight... Tanks and healers win dungeons FULLSTOP. we all have access to raid timers, DBM, big/littlewigs there is literally NO excuse for not knowing what is coming and PREPARING for it...... too many people are REactive instead of PROactive
If you are running into keys that bad, please consider recording them and submitting them review.
I got a WA for that and have yet to see a dead tank.
Good work.
9:48 to be fair the Tank (recorder) did get it right in the chat again by saying that it needs to happen BEFORE the tank buster, meaning seconds before it happens !?
The judging comments from other viewers in the comment section baffle me
But precise wording matter when we deal with strangers on the internet.
We cannot assume a person whom we don't know will understand our habitual way of speaking and what we mean if it's not explicitly and precisely outlined in a sentence.
the sentence where the tank says: "it needs to happen BEFORE the tank buster", can just as easily be interpreted from the healers perspective as a need to dispel instantly which would be before the tank buster, but also too early for the dmg mitigation effect to still be up for the actual tank buster, as explained by metro in the video.
How soon before the tank buster? Is it simply at any point before the buster?
You're being purposefully obtuse. Specificity matters.
I went over this in the video. "Before" can be interpreted as any time before, not directly before.
And sure enough, said BDK does not have the dung done at +10, but retri does. No doubt this happened within few days but just funny how dps moves on thinking it was rare tank being bad because dps doesn't need to know shit. Eventually all healers above +10s have got the memo how this is played, raging dps player might go even much further this season, still thinking they never were wrong.
Yup, the exact problem in action. These clowns can flame the tank in such an absurd way and just walk into another key and get carried.
hey man was hoping youd have an answer, who was that guy (i think in your guild) but he would stream on youtube always leveling and would do extremely long streams. He had a few health issues but I remember you being in his chat
@@fatgucci1118 Kop ya, he is in the hospital now rehabbing after having a bacterial infection that caused him to lose mobility in his back and leg.
i'm a HP healer and i insta dispel :X cause i use decursive... And i Tanked that with my alt DH.... mannnnn i will download that WA.
ya the weak aura helps!
I have had this problem on my alt tank in just +2 so i appreciate the coverage. I know what to do for it, but i dont have enough defensives (they arent off CD for the third one i think), and the healer didnt know to dispel me at right time. Even on my healer alt doing it on +4, i do dispel it properly, but it is difficult to get the timing correct.
what tank are you playing?
@@ThomasBachler01 it was my prot paladin
@@ericv738 You can always Ardent Defender the 1st of each set (he always does beams 2 times and then explodes the pillars, so you have more time between the 2nd and 3rd ones). So, AD for every 1st. I think you might end up getting 6,.You can GotAK one and can bubble another one. You most likely are able to bridge one of the 2nd ones with your hero shield ( both have one) + Eye of Tyr and worst case scenario, just BoP yourself while he casts it and cancel and taunt when its done. If a melee dps dies to that, then that is better than you dying and if there ends up being one more, then you should have AD again. If you end up having 8 and never get a proper dispel, get out of that group 🙂
@@ThomasBachler01 thanks 🙏 I've since decided that maybe tanking isn't for me. I try it out every expansion and inevitably don't stick with it, lol...
@@ericv738 Prot Pala in S1 TWW has to be Hardcore difficulty though 😀 I would imagine that after MDI/TGP are over, some massive dungeon tuning will be coming that makes everything more manageable. Maybe you want to give it another go then?
just gotta take rune tap in pugs seems like for this one
I would be really hesitant to recommend that. You should be able to live without it, and taking a talent for a single fight is quite a hindrance.
I'm surprised that they've made it to a +10 without knowing the mechanics. I wonder what else they don't know - like I assume most people find Mists easy, but they don't know how to get through the maze.
I've been working my way up pugging everything without a friend group and without raiding to supplement gearing, and am doing 7s as a healer.
I feel if I don't know or do everything correctly (like this mechanic) then it's just going to be a waste of everyone's time.
Heroics and M0s were too easy and you could ignore the majority of mechanics. Sadly not all mechanics can be taught by the dungeons trash mobs before the bosses - usually one or two mechanics are, but not all of them. For some of these, blizzard puts in some sort of emote or suggestion that X is about to happen - so you should prevent that from happening.
100 percent you will never do a 5 player group with 5 players who all know how the maze works. We had two dps attacking the WRONG ONE on the boss the other day in an 11. Nearly wiped to it. Like a few percent dps difference and we would have.