Unplanned Zigbee rant that I'm sure will upset some people
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- You have to understand just how frustrating it is when days on end my wife calls down to me in the shop saying, "The sprinkler won't come on." I've danced the magic dance every claims works. Maybe for some reason, it's less reliable in the US, I don't know, but I can't get these Zigbee devices to work with my Home Assistant out of the box (even WITH the coordinator).
I never needed Zigbee. It doesn't solve any problems for me. In fact, just trying to use it because it was given to me has added problems I didn't have before. I have yet to be impressed by anything other than wifi or ethernet.
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It it's a range problem, a zigbee bulb somewhere in between would help
That's what I plan to try next, but it's gotta take a backseat for a few other videos for the time being. When it doesn't respond, we just go out and hit the button for now. Thanks for givin' the video a look see, though! Hope you'll check out the next ones!
Zigbee is definitely temperamental. Home assistant is trying to rebrand as being user friendly, but zigbee is not for laymen.
Zigbee is a mesh network that relies on many nodes in the network to ensure a speedy connection. That’s its benefit. If you only have one device and it’s a few rooms away from your coordinator (also depends on the coordinator) then it will have a spotty connection - if one at all. For people who use zigbee lights all over their house adding another node is easy and very reliable. For you, just use wifi for one off things like this.
That is a fair point. I don't have enough devices to create the mesh network. It's also been suggested to raise it or move it slightly closer with a USB extension, so that's my next test. I appreciate the input (and the view)!
I don't get your problem. It feels like the meme of the guy in the bicycle that places a pipe on the wheel and blames others for it. 🤣
If wifi works for you, great! Keep it that way. I have many shelies and I have many zigbee devices and they give me the same amount of trouble. Very little.
My setup consists of a small x86 low power server running proxmox, a Sonoff ZB Dongle, an MQTT broker and Zigbee2MQTT. All devices communicating over MQTT. No HA. No problems.
Wifi doesn't work for all the use cases. Specially when we talk about low latency or battery operated devices. If your device is connected 24/7 and doesn't need a battery and your wifi setup is stable than go with WIFI. I prefer wifi devices because they usually have better processors and this way I can keep some my automation on the device. Shellies are just the best.
I like zigbee because I can buy cheap high quality ikea devices that I know that I can trust. For example, my kitchen cabinets have ikea lights (zigbee) controlled by wifi buttons. Unlike random Chinese brands, Ikea lights are cheap readily available, trust worthy and used by millions. I mix and match and have no problems.
But I understand your frustration. It takes time to find the correct setup but if it ain't broken don't fix it.
It's not that I'm blaming someone else for something I've done. All I've done is install it and try to use it. Now, I will admit I'm limiting the device by not having a larger mesh of Zigbee devices, but that's my whole point. Every time someone says "it work out of the box", that's not right because it requires you to have other devices in order to communicate, like the coordinator. (disclaimer: this is a really long reply, hang in there with me).
In many cases, you'll have to flash your device with Tasmota or some such and that's definitely not out of the box. Also, I don't have a problem with latency. If a network is fast enough to stream 4K, it's probably alright for some small messages. If there is any latency from waking from sleep, the Zigbee device isn't going to be much different. Also, dormant modes are getting better and better.
As an aside, I don't like the water valve relying on batteries in any case, really. What happens when the battery dies while the water is on? I'd rather have something wired and I'll be doing that a bit later.
Wifi may not work for all use cases. I don't have any that wifi wouldn't work for and I really can't think of any--save for sensing in an oil field--that wifi wouldn't work for. I'm not saying there aren't, but I don't think they're common enough for the Zigbee hype or proprietary tech in general.
My devices may cost a little more than some of the Zigbee stuff out there, but time is also money and flashing devices is definitely a consumer of that--so it comes out in the wash for me in that case. In cases where it's not necessary, I still don't mind the marginally higher priced devices because they're also usually longer lasting anyway. And, to your point, have better processing umph--though, that's more of a luxury than a necessity, I'll admit.
I agree 100% on the Shelly statement. My Shelly stuff just silently ticks away in the background doing what I installed it for without my noticing--and that's automation peak zen. At this point, none of my motion lights are even using Home Assistant because the actions on the devices themselves do the trick without involving a middle-man.
On the don't fix it thing, I also agree with that. I didn't buy these Zigbee devices, I was asked by Sonoff to review them and they sent them to me. I don't want to waste the materials or the perfectly good internal valve.
My biggest beef is that people constantly say to me that it's better or it works out of the box and those just aren't true. I will be getting two Zigbee bulbs for my fireplace that should give enough of a mesh coverage to make the thing work--I hope--and I don't mind doing that until the thing fails physically since I paid for the coordinator and went through all of this anyway. The bulbs are also neat looking at least.
I appreciate the video view as well as the thoughts on the matter. I'll see how this all goes and I do hope you'll stick around for the ride--even if I do jam a pipe in the spokes.
@@smartercircuits great stuff I think we kind of share the same mindset.
On the latency stuff. I think you are mixing throughput with latency.
When you have a wireless button or a wireless motion sensor on battery you cannot run it on WiFi because even in sleep mode the wifi chips are too power hungry. a physical button or reed switch can be used to power the device from a completely off and make it efficient but then it adds a ton of latency.
If the latency on pressing a button, opening a door or triggering a motion sensor goes above 100ms it starts to become noticeable and annoying. Waking up the ESP doing a wifi handshake and then a tcp handshake can easily get into 300ms making it unusable. This is where zigbee should be used.
This is why these devices are so popular.. because not everyone can have devices connected to the power permanently.
Philips hue and IKEA made possible for the masses to have little bits of automation out of the box, without remodeling the house ans without hiring a professional.
Btw expressive has their own mesh network using the wifi network for these exact reasons. They just throw away half of the wifi stack and use a connection less protocol to solve these problems. But this incompatible with your standard wifi network.
I still don't get the problem. Why do you have to flash anything? Why wouldn't the zigbee router not work with the zigbee device?
I feel that you got the wrong information for the stack you are running.
Regarding the mesh topology and limitations of zigbee range/hardware. You need to learn the limitations of the topology you have. Adding repeaters is a very common procedure. Many devices act like repeaters. Even IKEA sells cheap stand alone repeaters to help bridge across the house or floors.
Therefore I don't find it fare to say that it doesn't work out of the box just because you decided to place the device far away.
I can see your point on the latency there. I have a remote I set up to run C on a Pico and the dormant mode--if I want to extend the battery beyond a couple weeks, I have to wake it with a pin and there is some noticeable latency there. The Shelly motion doesn't seem to have that problem though, and I wonder how they handled that. I have one of the Gen 1 motions that goes months with recharging (it's under the cabinet for a hand wave counter lighting kind of thing).
On the flashing thing, if I want the ZB Bridge-P to work with HA, it has to be flashed. It's not that it won't work with the valve, ZHA won't pick it up. I tried a bunch of times and different reset modes (there's two pairing modes, one with the faster blink, that's all I know), then found an article someone did on flashing the thing. The water valve was detected, it just hates staying connected. Again, I think the bulbs may help this along, at least I hope because the valve body is actually more solid than I expected when they first told me what they were sending.
Also, there's a mixed point there. I don't blame the device for not being out of the box because of the distance issue, but because I can't buy one and use it even with a few feet unless I buy a coordinator first. Then, it's a matter of having multiple repeaters. I realize I'm being a bit difficult about this given that technically, my WAPs are also repeaters of their own breed, but they're also a pretty recognized technology even outside automation.
And, I agree, I think we do have a similar way of processing some stuff, even if we differ on this point. I'm still willing to extend the network I now have because I now have it. I do wish I could access those devices in a more direct way, the way you can by logging into a web interface on a wifi device. If there's a way to do that, it would earn more points as well. Again, pedantic because it's not really necessary, but it gives me the warm and fuzzies.
I think this is all good stuff. One thing I should talk about in a video at some point is that I definitely want discussion. I know--and have said from the beginning--that my way may not be someone else's, but if the channel can bring those views to some kind of entry point for the uninitiated where someone can take away what works for them and makes them comfortable, that's really the most important thing I can do as a UA-camr.
You were much more polite about disagreeing than some folks I've had in the past (barring the spokes thing, lol), so I definitely appreciate that, particularly on the IoT (Internet of Trolls). I'll experiment more when I get those bulbs and I will post honest results. I'm still open to having my mind changed about most things, and I'll continue to try to make this work.
@@smartercircuits I guess we are on the same page. Great stuff. Looking forward to watching more videos. Afaik the Shelly sensors use BLE bluetooth low energy. All shellies (not sure about gen1) are like BLE forwarders if I'm not mistaken. That's how they manage to get low latency. The sensors and the buttons use BLE instead of wifi.
You don't have to apologize for anything and Zigbee is very temperamental.
Well, I'm glad I'm not entirely crazy. Thanks for a little vindication. I'll be giving it the ol' college go to get it working if not for any other reason than I just don't want to waste a functioning device. Thanks for chiming in and watching!
You have 1 raspberry pie, (WiFi) next to a bunch of metal, a load bearing wall, and what type of siding?
You need to learn about RF before saying a protocol is the issue. The video shows you have 1 point… do you have a zigbee usb?
You seem to know what steps should be taken, but want it to work without that???
Just because a product is sold, doesn’t mean it works the way you want or with your gear.
Respectfully, you are making unreasonable demands.
Too many people want to have multi-branded plug-and-play simplicity, low cost and 100% uptime with no forethought… that’s not how it works.
Make an RF floor plan heat map at all needed frequencies. I bet you could see your problem...
I had the Pi above where it is now, I moved it down to get it closer to the same level and there is no metal between this Pi and the water valve. Do not presume to know what I know about RF. The steps that need to be taken are unnecessarily complex versus my regular devices. This is my opinion and I am entitled to have it just as you are your own, but this product requires too much effort and at least one too many devices to act as an intermediary and I was responding to the statement that it "works out of the box". And yes, it *is* how it works with my other devices. That is what standards and protocols are, they're consistent technology do you can have multi-branded plug-and-play simplicity. Also, if "too many people" want it, guess what, that's what the market calls "demand". As far as making an RF heat map, I don't want to make an RF heat map to turn on my water hose. And, again, it shouldn't be an issue. There is NO metal between the two devices. Glass either. I have worked with these kinds of things since the 90's. This is not my first rodeo.
@DamBlairFam also, the Pi is connected to the network via ethernet, the wifi is disabled.