Unpopular Opinion: Bettman and the lockouts are a big reason why teams like Ottawa, Buffalo, LA and Pittsburg haven't relocated or folded. 76% of revenue in 2003 was going to the players, and the NHLPA couldn't agree to change the average NHL contract from 1.8M a year to 1.2M. We can blame owners for being "greedy", but if salaries take so much revenue from teams that they end up filing for bankruptcy, both the teams and the players lose out. Kinda hard to get paid when your employer has to close the doors because they overpaid on labour costs.... From 1992-2003 in a TEN year span, there were FOUR teams that filed for bankruptcy in the NHL, Ottawa, Buffalo, Pittsburgh and LA... Do you know how many teams filed for bankruptcy in the other 3 major sports in FIFTY years???? Baseball: 2. Football: 1. Basketball: 0. The NHL had a very messy time with budgeting for teams before Bettman came in. Bettman saved this League from financial turmoil. I understand that losing out on a year of hockey sucks, but it's better to lose a year than to lose an entire League due to financial issues And BTW writeoffs for losses on a business only goes so far and for so many quarters of being a loss. Most teams in lower Leagues don't stay around after 5-10 years of financial losses. Billionaires only take so many financial losses before they cut ties. They're not too stupid to go broke over a sunken cost fallacy.
Team owners deserve to make money over the players. People will always want to play pro hockey regardless of salary, but if the teams go bankrupt, there will no longer be pro hockey for players to play. Nylander took that 11 million dollar deal and quit trying. That's 11 million dollars that other employees of the organization could have gotten. There are loads of employees in an organization, they all need to be paid as well as players. People often overlook this side of it.
@@deecee2174 Although the NBA didn't have bankruptcies, they had 4-5 teams that had to relocate due to finances. BUT I still agree with your overall argument. I think Bettman needs to go though. He's kept the league intact and financially sustainable but it hasn't really grown the way other leagues have in terms of revenue stream. There needs to be a new way of thinking and Bettman's approach is actually limiting the NHL.
I will always have more sympathy for the players than the owners. I have far more sympathy for even a player making 12 million a year, than a billionaire owner. I hope the NHLPA can do a better job on the PR department if there is another lockout, or at least they can get a better deal, and better assistance for stuff like CTE and everything else. Great video as always! Love the content and the in-depth breakdown.
Same. It's not the owners who are entertaining me, it's the players, and these guys sacrifice their bodies do it. I think the players SHOULD get more of the money than the owners. I don't give a shit about the owners (and since I live in Phoenix, I'll let you make your own conclusions about how I feel about the local ex-owner in particular).
@@iagmusicandflying Lol NHL players were getting 76% of revenue before the 04 lockout; the highest percentage of revenue going to salary in the Major 4 North American Sports And ok, let's say that players get paid more than owners... Are the players also gonna help cover labour costs? Building overhead? Taxes for the land the Stadium is on? The accountants that calculate the accounts payable and receivable? Lawyers to handle franchise issues and lawsuits? There's a reason why owners get paid more than players. They got more bills to pay and more risk to take on... If the team folds, the player can go play elsewhere at no loss; but the Owner has to hold the bag and lose hundreds of millions
@@deecee2174 can always count on someone to kiss the ultra-rich ass. The players risk THEIR LIVES. Rich people risk money. I'll wait while you explain how that's more important.
@@winkletown8828 You must have a Hell-uv-a Time policing the Bad Grammar on the internet Mr. Winkleton.....well its summer and school is out so just put me down for an F for F-off!
I completely agree that it makes far more sense to allow for plenty of time to negotiate. The problem is when one or both sides feels as though they can gain an advantage by having a rapidly approaching deadline that puts pressure on the other side to agree to demands. The other reason I'm not overly optimistic that an early agreement will be reached has to do with one word: greed. Right now, the NHL is laying golden eggs like it has never before. However, that does not mean that the parties concerned wouldn't be willing to cut the head off of that goose in order to find the source and get ALL of those golden eggs. Sustainable and growing profits can seem inadequate, especially if there is the perception that the other side is getting more than their "fair" share. And then there's the amazing ability to ignore the history that shows lockouts do years worth of fan goodwill damage and loss of revenue. I would suspect that TV contracts have sections that address changing rates if a lockout occurs. But I certainly agree that the owners/Bettman are trying to get out ahead of some of the potential issues that could hinder an agreement.
The 04-05 lockout saved the NHL. It corrected the massive imbalance that sent 70%+ of revenue to player salaries, and it ushered in long-overdue rule changes that opened up the game.
How open are the books at this point? I know the PA used to spend a lot of time complaining that they think the league is not being honest about how much they are making. If nothing has changed in that area, do you think they might push for that transparency along with some pushback over escrow?
You’re right The result of lockout of 94-95 was the last nail in the coffin for Quebec City. Most minority owners of the Nordiques told that the lack of costs certainty drove the urge to sell.
2004 lockout broke the heart of Tampa Bay fans whose team did not get to defend a cup. Also I recall contracts advanced one year after the lockout so players they might have had for one more season were gone
Great video as always Shannon! I will never understand why contract negotiations wait until the last minute to get going. Talk early so there isnt a rush at the last minute. Yes without the owners there is no NHL but the owners forget without the NHL players you aren't getting 5000 people in these stadiums.
One huge dark cloud on the horizon is the continuing disintegration of US team TV deals. I know the league gets more from the gate, but they’re pricing fans out there. The RSN money model is over and producing live TV is expensive. I fear that’s gonna get much worse for fans.
Random question: When the 04/05 lockout happened, say someone was in the middle of a 5 year contract, does that missing season count as one of the 5 years on the contract, or were all contracts frozen until the lockout was over?
One thing I think might keep them from having another lockout is the prospect of expansion. Nobody wants to expand into a league that might not play the following season. A lockout would probably drive the cost of the expansion down as well, at least in the 2-3 years afterwards. If they avoid that, the owners will profit.
One thing that I didn't see mentioned in here that I think is salient to this conversation: the extension in 2020 was actually the second one in less than a calendar year. The 2013 CBA was originally eight years plus two option years, meaning it could have expired in 2020 if both parties didn't activate the option by September 2019. That happens to be the exact month said option was activated.
Lockouts and stikes to me show that the NHL cares more about themselves than the fans. Players that make the league minimum are way wealthier than almost all of their fans. The owners are even richer. I think they need to remember where their money comes from. None of them would have a whole lot of anything without the fans.
I remember living in Residence at OUC in 2004 where UBCO is now and I remember my one friend Tom being a huge Leafs fan and being so upset there was no Hockey that year, I remember him sitting with his PS2 all the time playing NHL on PS2 because that's all we had. I remember we had so many canuck fans in that building too that would have loved to sit together and watch canuck games if there were any.
When the next CBA negotiations happen, remember these 2 things: 1)Ticket price will go up, no matter the results of the negotiations. The increase rate is not related to team's expenses, it's related to how much they think they can get away with. 2) Team's yearly bottom line is mostly irrelevant. What's important to the owners is the team valuation. This has shown to be their greatest gain, no matter the team. Moruelo and Melnyk bought their team for around 100m (IIRC) and sold for a billion. That's the real money.
True. But if u want to go without a salary cap, goodbye to any smaller market or any team with an owner that doesnt generate enough revenue for the owner. Teams like Ny, mabye Totonto in Canada and a few other US teams will b able to outspend anybody else. It would push the NHL backwards in terms of salary as smaller markets would end up with lower attendance and thus reduce overall revenue for thee league and thus players as well.
A finance degree, running a business and Shannon are responsible for me understanding the business side of hockey. It's amazing how many times I refer to Shannon when discussing the economics of hockey and why the NHL and Bettman do what they do. I don't like Gary, but I understand him. Gary has taken a lot of grief over the years but he's only the face of the league and the owners' yes man. He does as he is told.If you have issues with what the league does, look at the owners.
Little advice to both the NHL and NHLPA. Both sides should start negotiating immediately after the 2026 All-Star Game at UBS Arena in Elmont, preferably earlier than that if possible.
I always found it interesting how fans get so passionate about possible lockouts. Sure, it affects folks working for the arenas, teams, and tv broadcasts. At the end its the owners and players who will get big raises and generate profits for themselves. Other than missing watching hockey, fans walk away empty-handed except paying more money for tickets.
start negotiating CBA on August 1 a full year before expiring? even if obstacles arise, league and players will have a whole year covered under previous CBA to resolve differences?
All I know is: 1) A lockout would be DISASTROUS for the game of hockey given how many more business partnerships the NHL has developed between 2005 and now 2) Generally speaking, NHL owners are the most visibly "Scrooge McDuck-like" in all of sports
Early negotiation! More chance 😉 of being struck by Lightning or winning the lottery...do expect an agreement to be made ultimately before any labor action with both sides making good money and momentum in tact.
Here is the breakdown of the playoff money and how it is distributed: Presidents’ Trophy winner - $500,000 First-round losers - $2 million ($250,000 each to eight teams) Second-round losers - $2 million ($500,000 each to four teams) Conference final losers - $2.5 million ($1.25 million each to two teams) Stanley Cup Finalist - $2.25 million Stanley Cup Champion - $3.75 million
4/5, 4/5, 4/5, 5/5, starting with Vegas and going back in half decade groupings, this is how many different teams have won in each 5 year period. Its a little closer to what you mean but even going back 20 years U still have 12 different teams winning in that span. U can attribute that to good management with the salary cap. But either way, U still have multiple teams having a chance. And no team since 2005 when the cap started able to outspend anybody else.
Well I hope it’s the rangers , the 2 players mentioned needing to pick things up I think Mika has had some opportunities but Panarin has struggled and I think it’s apparent he is trying a little too hard when it’s been more than once that he has whiffed on big shot chances .. It’s been all Lafreniere and Trocheck unless it’s a defenseman outside of Goodrow.. Lav is doing everything he can try to limit the dominance by Florida in the ozone.. one thing I will add is the ice should be much better than it was in game one , ny weather is not going to affect ice today .. Kreider needs a tip goal in this one
It still limits how much money a player can ask for, which keeps players from making the amount of money that they're worth. Now you know why the owners wanted a cap, because they want to underpay players.
The argument that expansion waters down the league, are these playoffs disappointing or the race to get there? There's a worldwide supply of talent. That's the pre 1967 argument.
6 місяців тому+1
The NHL owners/Board of Governors love Bettman. Heck, if they could have him cloned, you know they would do so.
So sick of lockouts in the NHL, how on earth did they screw it up so badly in 95 after the crest of the wave that was 1994. Bettman should have gone then!!
Should be Salary cap floor and ceiling or salary cap floor and revenue sharing. Not all 3. Former choice would keep parity, latter would increase revenue. All 3 is the worst of both worlds
Can u imagine the NHL without a salary cap? Half the teams already play at a minor league level. With no cap, a handful of teams would be steamrolling the league.
Oh just like now? San Jose was a NHL roster in name only this year. With some heavy bottom feeders. While the others simply dominated this season barring injury.
@@harper-leightonscott4566 Because they are in a rebuild? That's how the modern NHL works. Ideally, you're bad for a few years so that you can be good for a long period of time. You think San Jose is going to stay at the bottom for another decade? Not likely. The only teams that have been consistently bad for a decade or more right now (Buffalo and Arizona) have been so due to their own poor management. Other teams like Edmonton and New Jersey, who had long periods of failure, have found relative success. Without a salary cap LA, Chicago, New York, Toronto, etc would be at the top consistently. Yet all of those teams have gone through rebuilds/retools in the last decade. So what is your point? Yes, every year there will be a handful of teams that are bottom-feeders and borderline AHL teams, but it is a natural part of the process. In 5 years, it is highly unlikely that any team in the bottom 5 this year will still be there.
@@ianspottiswood2419 that's my entire point. That's how the league works in general there's less bad teams now back in the day that primarily due to expansion. But that doesn't stop bad teams from being bad and good teams from being good. My guy LaA, Chicago, New York, and Toronto is consistently at the top. Their financial status allows them to enter a rebuild less often than any of their competitors. and that's ignoring the role of management. Because when's the last time Boston underwent a rebuild of any kind. The salary cap doesn't really fix the parity issue like everyone claims. It just slightly quickens the pre salary cap competitive process.
@@harper-leightonscott4566 yeah, although Chicago/Montreal/Detroit have been bad for many years now. While teams like Carolina, Florida, Dallas, and Tampa have dominated the League for 4-5 years. Where do they factor in? As for a team like Boston, they’ve been good due to a strong team culture. Look at their roster this year. Outside of Marchand, McAvoy, and Pasta (and the goalies) they have a pretty mid roster. They’ve just outworked their opponents most nights. Hence how they beat Toronto, a team loaded with superstars. The salaries of the players have nothing to do with their success.
Taxpayers shouldn't yield a cent to the owners, not even access or tax breaks. But the politicians kiss the owners' a**. I'd rather see it all go away.
That’s why I propose the actual cities or metropolitan areas should own NHL teams, so every taxpayer living there gets partial ownership (since they end up paying for a lot of the arena costs)... Plus, that would make relocation out of NHL cities more difficult due to the fans (who wouldn't care as much about profits) being actively involved in the process...
I wish the NHL had just stuck with a luxury tax and maybe had a cap floor. If GMs want to behave like drunken sailors, that's their problem. But what we've seen is that the top players' salaries have continued to skyrocket, and the middle 6 and 4-5 guys have been squeezed out in favour of 4th line, bottom pairing and even borderline NHLers, unless those guys want to take a big pay cut. It hasn't really solved much of anything except for increasing the salary gap between the guys at the top and everyone else as well as create very top heavy teams. Sure, you can draft well and maybe if you get lucky, for a few years, you can have a very deep team, like Tampa had. But eventually, you lose a lot of the guys you developed and even Ken Holland, the wizard of 90s drafting, hasn't been able to keep up his record in terms of developing a prospect pool and that's part of the reason he lost his job in Detroit. Eventually, your luck runs out and it's virtually impossible to have any long term success. Obviously, parity is good, but it's also punishing GMs who under the old system did a good job, because once one stupid GM gives someone a huge contract, other GMs have to follow suit. They have no other choice. The cap hasn't stopped that at all.
I agree with everything you’ve said until you got to Ken Holland when you called him a wizard of 90s drafting. There’s a lot you got wrong. For one he didn’t get the GM job until July 1997 so he only took place in the 1998 and 1999 draft. Only 2 names of note on that list. Datsyuk and Zetterberg. The only credit I give Holland is listening to Hakan Andersson and taking these guys as a late round pick. Jiri Fischer was good as well but unfortunately had his career shortened. Still a European player and scouted by Andersson. So no he was never a wizard at 90s drafting. Ken Holland literally has said himself that he credits his success to Andersson as well as some of the other scouts which I agree with. He wasn’t able to keep up a good prospect pool because he kept trading draft picks away and prospects to other teams for players to keep the playoff streak alive. It’s a huge part of the reason that the Redwings were so horrible at the end of the 2010s and beginning of the 2020s and the team still has more to go before it can be considered a true contender. Also don’t even get me started on Hollands absolutely abysmal contract signings. I mean we are still paying for Abdelkaders dead cap for a contract he never should have even got. Like it’s actually one of the worst contracts in probably the whole NHL.
You are asking the salary cap to fix something it was not mentioned to fix. It was only for one thing that it was started and that was to provide owners cost certainty.
It's such an esoteric concept. People getting paid millions of dollars (well, not all of them, of course) to play a game can't be relatable to your average joe that may be in a union fighting for a couple of dollars an hour wage increase. I get the whole concept of elite people getting paid to perform... hell look at some of the baseball contracts... but at some point, we fans throw up the hands in disgust. I'd love to go to more than two or three hockey games a year here in Tampa. But even though I make a decent living, it's a bit of a stretch to justify paying the coin for a family of three to be entertained for three hours. How do the players and the league want to "grow the game" when it's not affordable for the people you are targeting for growth to actually go to the games?
When the next CBA negotiations happen, remember these 2 things: 1)Ticket price will go up, no matter the results of the negotiations. The increase rate is not related to team's expenses, it's related to how much they think they can get away with. 2) Team's yearly bottom line is mostly irrelevant. What's important to the owners is the team valuation. This has shown to be their greatest gain, no matter the team. Moruelo and Melnyk bought their team for around 100m (IIRC) and sold for a billion. That's the real money. And to answer your final question, as the population grows, the attendance becomes less relevant. They don't really care who can afford to go to the game, as long as there are other streams of income. Adds, TV deals, merchandise are all part of that. All other leagues rely less on attendance, and hockey is going that way.
True but tbh I thought it was unfair to Coyotes fans that they lose their team when they had a plan that was plausible (the land deal thats in auction) Personally I would've told the Coyotes "Look u got one year to see if this land deal goes through if it does then great you can stay if it falls through after next year ur'e moving"
The NHL didn't want another game played at the Mullett. The land auction might not go to Meruelo at all. Now that the Coyotes have moved, other people who want the land are more likely to bid without worrying that they cost the city their hockey team. They couldn't stay in the Mullett until 2027 which was the likely earliest opening date for a new arena. If the Coyotes didn't have 30 years of failing to find an arena before this, I might agree. The fact is, they never had an arena that worked and locals seem to loathe Alex Meruelo.
@@TheHockeyGuy Couldn't of stayed? I think if the building is there to be built I think the NHL could've "suffered" (and I use that term sarcastically) a few more years in the Mullet which from what I heard was great place to watch hockey. Look at Ottawa. They need a new building but people are still showing up despite half the city is immigrants (I used to live in East Ottawa and I swear I met more people from the Middle East than I did Canadians)
No, the players were DONE with the Mullett. Coyotes players felt the novelty wore off in year two and wanted out. 4600 maximum isn't an NHL arena, not even close. Utah will have a full barn of 12,000+ next season and beyond. Ottawa's a team turning a profit and had good attendance last season. You're ignoring that there is no guarantee of winning the land auction and they had no plan C, since the land auction was plan B following the failure to get a building in Tempe. It had to end.
@@TheHockeyGuy That;s what I mean by saying either win the auction or leave. I personally dont support the players etc (eat the rich and all that) but Arizona despite a lot of people saying "its only snowbirds going to games" IS one of the growing areas for hockey esp with Leafs fans thx to Matthews and Knies.
As an aside, a fitting jersey for this topic. CBA discussions are cringeworthy, as are this last season's All Star Carl's Jr/Hardee's/cartoonish jerseys.
What this tells me honestly is that the league is kind of in the healthiest position its ever been in, despite all the complaints people throw around. In its earlier days there was a lot more concern about the league's viability and sustainability that just doesn't seem to be an issue at all as of the last 10 years.
Why do you think weather or not Gary is the commissioner have anything to do with a lockout? Sorry, but whoever is the commissioner is going to do what the owners tell them to do.
Watching college football players fight for their NIL rights made me realize that owners really do have all the power in situations like this. And while the top players get huge salaries, the average player only gets about 2 years in the league at league minimum. After taxes and agent fees, that's not nearly as much money as the average fan would think. Plus that's after 10+ years of paying to play amateur hockey.
The NHL is not going to allow common sense. The next team out will be the Sabres. Hamilton doesn’t have to be approved by the league. This happens around 2035-40.
I never understood players bitching about escrow. Taking the covid stoppage and payback circumstance out of the equation, a reasonable escrow number is just a timing difference. If the players don’t get the money back, then that means the circumstance that they collectively bargained for called for that money to go to the owners, and if you do, all is good, you’re made whole plus interest. Just negotiate a reasonable number, which might be sub 6% now that Covid payback is complete and we’re seemingly in a better spot. If I was an owner I wouldn’t want escrow to go away.
20:53 yeah I know the feeling, seeing money from my paycheck go towards things like 'social security' and taxes to Lord knows what government waste, and never seeing that money again 😑😑😑
2026 could be crazy. We may get NHLers back in the Olympics AND a league lockout in the same year!
Imagine if they expand that year and there's a lockout.
Im with you in that I've never understood the waiting until the last minute or beyond to start serious negotiations.
you'll never catch me taking the NHL's side
Unpopular Opinion: Bettman and the lockouts are a big reason why teams like Ottawa, Buffalo, LA and Pittsburg haven't relocated or folded.
76% of revenue in 2003 was going to the players, and the NHLPA couldn't agree to change the average NHL contract from 1.8M a year to 1.2M. We can blame owners for being "greedy", but if salaries take so much revenue from teams that they end up filing for bankruptcy, both the teams and the players lose out. Kinda hard to get paid when your employer has to close the doors because they overpaid on labour costs....
From 1992-2003 in a TEN year span, there were FOUR teams that filed for bankruptcy in the NHL, Ottawa, Buffalo, Pittsburgh and LA...
Do you know how many teams filed for bankruptcy in the other 3 major sports in FIFTY years????
Baseball: 2. Football: 1. Basketball: 0.
The NHL had a very messy time with budgeting for teams before Bettman came in. Bettman saved this League from financial turmoil.
I understand that losing out on a year of hockey sucks, but it's better to lose a year than to lose an entire League due to financial issues
And BTW writeoffs for losses on a business only goes so far and for so many quarters of being a loss. Most teams in lower Leagues don't stay around after 5-10 years of financial losses. Billionaires only take so many financial losses before they cut ties. They're not too stupid to go broke over a sunken cost fallacy.
@@deecee2174 Yeah. I have some problems with Bettman, like most do, but he's done a good job overall to be honest.
@@deecee2174Every communist says "they prefer to lose money, they're billionaires" 😂😂😂
Glad you included that part
Team owners deserve to make money over the players. People will always want to play pro hockey regardless of salary, but if the teams go bankrupt, there will no longer be pro hockey for players to play.
Nylander took that 11 million dollar deal and quit trying. That's 11 million dollars that other employees of the organization could have gotten. There are loads of employees in an organization, they all need to be paid as well as players. People often overlook this side of it.
@@deecee2174
Although the NBA didn't have bankruptcies, they had 4-5 teams that had to relocate due to finances.
BUT I still agree with your overall argument. I think Bettman needs to go though. He's kept the league intact and financially sustainable but it hasn't really grown the way other leagues have in terms of revenue stream. There needs to be a new way of thinking and Bettman's approach is actually limiting the NHL.
I will always have more sympathy for the players than the owners. I have far more sympathy for even a player making 12 million a year, than a billionaire owner. I hope the NHLPA can do a better job on the PR department if there is another lockout, or at least they can get a better deal, and better assistance for stuff like CTE and everything else. Great video as always! Love the content and the in-depth breakdown.
Same. It's not the owners who are entertaining me, it's the players, and these guys sacrifice their bodies do it. I think the players SHOULD get more of the money than the owners. I don't give a shit about the owners (and since I live in Phoenix, I'll let you make your own conclusions about how I feel about the local ex-owner in particular).
@@iagmusicandflying Lol NHL players were getting 76% of revenue before the 04 lockout; the highest percentage of revenue going to salary in the Major 4 North American Sports
And ok, let's say that players get paid more than owners... Are the players also gonna help cover labour costs? Building overhead? Taxes for the land the Stadium is on? The accountants that calculate the accounts payable and receivable? Lawyers to handle franchise issues and lawsuits?
There's a reason why owners get paid more than players. They got more bills to pay and more risk to take on... If the team folds, the player can go play elsewhere at no loss; but the Owner has to hold the bag and lose hundreds of millions
@@deecee2174 can always count on someone to kiss the ultra-rich ass. The players risk THEIR LIVES. Rich people risk money. I'll wait while you explain how that's more important.
@@iagmusicandflyingthey aren't, but also, no one forces them to play.
@@csolivais1979 and nobody forces team owners to buy a franchise either.
I remember the 2004-05 lockout & the 2011-12 short lockout vividly. Hope they reach an agreement
So do i vince..... my team was LOCKED OUT due to LA winning the cup before the work stoppage happened.
That was 2012-13
@@DragonmasterAlex Actually The 2012-13 NHL Lockout Happened Not The 2011-12 NHL Season!
@dvon1097 Actually The 2012-13 Short Season Lockout Happened Besides the 1994-95 Lockout and The 2004-05 Lockout Not in 2011-12!
I'd love a video about the 99 All-Star exhibitions you mentioned set up Gretzky. I never heard of that until today.
Man, I love listening to Shannon sound brilliant. Great video, as always
THG, thank you for the escrow explanation. I knew the basics but you did a great job explaining how it all works in full. Much appreciated sir!
In my experience, nobody negotiates a contract early. Not sure why either.
The league is never transparent with the players, why would that be any different?
@KWally how are they not transparent?
No matter the industry, negotiations & especially agreements are not done to the last minute. Just the way the world is.
Man that Ottawa Senators team of 2004-2005 would of been great to watch.
Would *have*
@@winkletown8828 You must have a Hell-uv-a Time policing the Bad Grammar on the internet Mr. Winkleton.....well its summer and school is out so just put me down for an F for F-off!
#GoStars You are truly an inspiration sir to taking a chance on doing what you love vs what you endure. Wishing you all the best ❤️
The only real losers in a lockout are the fans. The NHL and the players will still get their money eventually.
Thanx for the breakdown
I completely agree that it makes far more sense to allow for plenty of time to negotiate. The problem is when one or both sides feels as though they can gain an advantage by having a rapidly approaching deadline that puts pressure on the other side to agree to demands. The other reason I'm not overly optimistic that an early agreement will be reached has to do with one word: greed. Right now, the NHL is laying golden eggs like it has never before. However, that does not mean that the parties concerned wouldn't be willing to cut the head off of that goose in order to find the source and get ALL of those golden eggs. Sustainable and growing profits can seem inadequate, especially if there is the perception that the other side is getting more than their "fair" share. And then there's the amazing ability to ignore the history that shows lockouts do years worth of fan goodwill damage and loss of revenue. I would suspect that TV contracts have sections that address changing rates if a lockout occurs. But I certainly agree that the owners/Bettman are trying to get out ahead of some of the potential issues that could hinder an agreement.
Love a lockout. Love seeing the stars back home. Please do a full season one.
the 04 05 lockout was tragic, when hockey came back it felt like years that it was gone
The 2004-05 Lockout Was Worse Then The 1994-95 and 2012-13 Lockout Seasons But Hopefully There’s Not Another One in 2026!
The 04-05 lockout saved the NHL. It corrected the massive imbalance that sent 70%+ of revenue to player salaries, and it ushered in long-overdue rule changes that opened up the game.
@@gablefisk-govphost817 Yup and The NHL Lockout in 2004-05 Made Lots of Fans Mad For Some Odd Reason!
@@vinceniederman Did they come back?
@@gablefisk-govphost817 They Did The Next Season!
I will never be one the side of the billionaire owners especially when they don't build the areas with their own money.
a good video to make would be looking at those leagues back in 2004-05 filled with nhl players and see how they performed and who may have stood out.
The downside of expansion for fans is having proof about the skill of your team's management. Vegas made a lot of teams look bad.
Very good info. Is the NHL still looking at going to 84 games to allow rival teams to play more often?
How open are the books at this point? I know the PA used to spend a lot of time complaining that they think the league is not being honest about how much they are making. If nothing has changed in that area, do you think they might push for that transparency along with some pushback over escrow?
You’re right The result of lockout of 94-95 was the last nail in the coffin for Quebec City. Most minority owners of the Nordiques told that the lack of costs certainty drove the urge to sell.
I wonder if expanding playoffs with expansion is going to be a sticking point
Got on UA-cam just in time ;)
2004 lockout broke the heart of Tampa Bay fans whose team did not get to defend a cup. Also I recall contracts advanced one year after the lockout so players they might have had for one more season were gone
Great video as always Shannon! I will never understand why contract negotiations wait until the last minute to get going. Talk early so there isnt a rush at the last minute. Yes without the owners there is no NHL but the owners forget without the NHL players you aren't getting 5000 people in these stadiums.
One huge dark cloud on the horizon is the continuing disintegration of US team TV deals. I know the league gets more from the gate, but they’re pricing fans out there. The RSN money model is over and producing live TV is expensive. I fear that’s gonna get much worse for fans.
Random question: When the 04/05 lockout happened, say someone was in the middle of a 5 year contract, does that missing season count as one of the 5 years on the contract, or were all contracts frozen until the lockout was over?
A lock out or strike would be a disaster!
One thing I think might keep them from having another lockout is the prospect of expansion. Nobody wants to expand into a league that might not play the following season. A lockout would probably drive the cost of the expansion down as well, at least in the 2-3 years afterwards. If they avoid that, the owners will profit.
One thing that I didn't see mentioned in here that I think is salient to this conversation: the extension in 2020 was actually the second one in less than a calendar year. The 2013 CBA was originally eight years plus two option years, meaning it could have expired in 2020 if both parties didn't activate the option by September 2019. That happens to be the exact month said option was activated.
The nhl never should’ve been in mullet to begin with. It’d be very reasonable for the nhlpa to fight for that to not happen again
Lockouts and stikes to me show that the NHL cares more about themselves than the fans. Players that make the league minimum are way wealthier than almost all of their fans. The owners are even richer. I think they need to remember where their money comes from. None of them would have a whole lot of anything without the fans.
You sure love talking about the NHL and have good knowledge of it.
I remember living in Residence at OUC in 2004 where UBCO is now and I remember my one friend Tom being a huge Leafs fan and being so upset there was no Hockey that year, I remember him sitting with his PS2 all the time playing NHL on PS2 because that's all we had.
I remember we had so many canuck fans in that building too that would have loved to sit together and watch canuck games if there were any.
When the next CBA negotiations happen, remember these 2 things:
1)Ticket price will go up, no matter the results of the negotiations. The increase rate is not related to team's expenses, it's related to how much they think they can get away with.
2) Team's yearly bottom line is mostly irrelevant. What's important to the owners is the team valuation. This has shown to be their greatest gain, no matter the team. Moruelo and Melnyk bought their team for around 100m (IIRC) and sold for a billion. That's the real money.
True. But if u want to go without a salary cap, goodbye to any smaller market or any team with an owner that doesnt generate enough revenue for the owner. Teams like Ny, mabye Totonto in Canada and a few other US teams will b able to outspend anybody else. It would push the NHL backwards in terms of salary as smaller markets would end up with lower attendance and thus reduce overall revenue for thee league and thus players as well.
is there a way to allow each team to increase salaries based on the previous years' ticket revenues?
A finance degree, running a business and Shannon are responsible for me understanding the business side of hockey. It's amazing how many times I refer to Shannon when discussing the economics of hockey and why the NHL and Bettman do what they do. I don't like Gary, but I understand him. Gary has taken a lot of grief over the years but he's only the face of the league and the owners' yes man. He does as he is told.If you have issues with what the league does, look at the owners.
Little advice to both the NHL and NHLPA. Both sides should start negotiating immediately after the 2026 All-Star Game at UBS Arena in Elmont, preferably earlier than that if possible.
The players did strike for a few days at the end of the 1991-92 season
There are so many more entertainment options since the last labor-player/mgmt dispute. It’s dicey territory if something would happen again.
I always found it interesting how fans get so passionate about possible lockouts. Sure, it affects folks working for the arenas, teams, and tv broadcasts. At the end its the owners and players who will get big raises and generate profits for themselves. Other than missing watching hockey, fans walk away empty-handed except paying more money for tickets.
Interesting stuff.
start negotiating CBA on August 1 a full year before expiring? even if obstacles arise, league and players will have a whole year covered under previous CBA to resolve differences?
All I know is:
1) A lockout would be DISASTROUS for the game of hockey given how many more business partnerships the NHL has developed between 2005 and now
2) Generally speaking, NHL owners are the most visibly "Scrooge McDuck-like" in all of sports
Always will maintain that the lockout that wiped out the 2004-05 season was necessary for the well-being of the NHL.
Early negotiation! More chance 😉 of being struck by Lightning or winning the lottery...do expect an agreement to be made ultimately before any labor action with both sides making good money and momentum in tact.
The players will want the cap issue fixed. Why? They need to be paid for playoff games...
They do. There is a bonus for players that is based on how far they go in the playoffs…
Here is the breakdown of the playoff money and how it is distributed:
Presidents’ Trophy winner - $500,000
First-round losers - $2 million ($250,000 each to eight teams)
Second-round losers - $2 million ($500,000 each to four teams)
Conference final losers - $2.5 million ($1.25 million each to two teams)
Stanley Cup Finalist - $2.25 million
Stanley Cup Champion - $3.75 million
I feel like things are going good enough right now the owners won’t risk another lockout and kill all the momentum the league has right now.
4/5, 4/5, 4/5, 5/5, starting with Vegas and going back in half decade groupings, this is how many different teams have won in each 5 year period. Its a little closer to what you mean but even going back 20 years U still have 12 different teams winning in that span. U can attribute that to good management with the salary cap. But either way, U still have multiple teams having a chance. And no team since 2005 when the cap started able to outspend anybody else.
Well I hope it’s the rangers , the 2 players mentioned needing to pick things up I think Mika has had some opportunities but Panarin has struggled and I think it’s apparent he is trying a little too hard when it’s been more than once that he has whiffed on big shot chances .. It’s been all Lafreniere and Trocheck unless it’s a defenseman outside of Goodrow.. Lav is doing everything he can try to limit the dominance by Florida in the ozone.. one thing I will add is the ice should be much better than it was in game one , ny weather is not going to affect ice today .. Kreider needs a tip goal in this one
Hi Shannon !
Do you think the NHL games are rigging games, so they can make money for games 6&7?
I think the NHL should expand that way they can say they have more teams in their league than the NFL
And they need to expand to London. UK, not Ontario.
Salary caps are good for the game. It does create parity. It gives everybody a chance to win if you get a good group together.
It still limits how much money a player can ask for, which keeps players from making the amount of money that they're worth. Now you know why the owners wanted a cap, because they want to underpay players.
I really don't think it has. It's just been about the same few teams winning each half decade or so.
Parody
we just need cap to matter in playoffs😄
The argument that expansion waters down the league, are these playoffs disappointing or the race to get there? There's a worldwide supply of talent. That's the pre 1967 argument.
The NHL owners/Board of Governors love Bettman. Heck, if they could have him cloned, you know they would do so.
Workers of the world unite 👊
04-05 Sens team would have cooked
11:40 The UFA age is 27 not 26
I enjoyed this video
I was literally going to ask for a video on this topic... are you reading my mind?
Hopefully There’s Not Another NHL Lockout in The 2026-27 Season!
4 year contracts would be more exciting for fans
That escrow thing is crazy. The league gets the interest from the money and players get ???
So sick of lockouts in the NHL, how on earth did they screw it up so badly in 95 after the crest of the wave that was 1994. Bettman should have gone then!!
Why would he have gotten fired? You do know he is a paid employee, just like just about everyone else who has a job.
Should be Salary cap floor and ceiling or salary cap floor and revenue sharing. Not all 3. Former choice would keep parity, latter would increase revenue. All 3 is the worst of both worlds
Can u imagine the NHL without a salary cap? Half the teams already play at a minor league level. With no cap, a handful of teams would be steamrolling the league.
Oh just like now? San Jose was a NHL roster in name only this year. With some heavy bottom feeders. While the others simply dominated this season barring injury.
@@harper-leightonscott4566 Because they are in a rebuild? That's how the modern NHL works. Ideally, you're bad for a few years so that you can be good for a long period of time. You think San Jose is going to stay at the bottom for another decade? Not likely. The only teams that have been consistently bad for a decade or more right now (Buffalo and Arizona) have been so due to their own poor management. Other teams like Edmonton and New Jersey, who had long periods of failure, have found relative success. Without a salary cap LA, Chicago, New York, Toronto, etc would be at the top consistently. Yet all of those teams have gone through rebuilds/retools in the last decade. So what is your point? Yes, every year there will be a handful of teams that are bottom-feeders and borderline AHL teams, but it is a natural part of the process. In 5 years, it is highly unlikely that any team in the bottom 5 this year will still be there.
@@ianspottiswood2419 that's my entire point. That's how the league works in general there's less bad teams now back in the day that primarily due to expansion. But that doesn't stop bad teams from being bad and good teams from being good. My guy LaA, Chicago, New York, and Toronto is consistently at the top. Their financial status allows them to enter a rebuild less often than any of their competitors. and that's ignoring the role of management. Because when's the last time Boston underwent a rebuild of any kind. The salary cap doesn't really fix the parity issue like everyone claims. It just slightly quickens the pre salary cap competitive process.
@@harper-leightonscott4566 yeah, although Chicago/Montreal/Detroit have been bad for many years now. While teams like Carolina, Florida, Dallas, and Tampa have dominated the League for 4-5 years. Where do they factor in? As for a team like Boston, they’ve been good due to a strong team culture. Look at their roster this year. Outside of Marchand, McAvoy, and Pasta (and the goalies) they have a pretty mid roster. They’ve just outworked their opponents most nights. Hence how they beat Toronto, a team loaded with superstars. The salaries of the players have nothing to do with their success.
I can see the escrow set at 5%
Man I wish the nhl could just chill it with the expansion. What happens when we reach 40? That’s to much!
Taxpayers shouldn't yield a cent to the owners, not even access or tax breaks. But the politicians kiss the owners' a**. I'd rather see it all go away.
@@mannyoliveira776 Not what I'd wish...
That’s why I propose the actual cities or metropolitan areas should own NHL teams, so every taxpayer living there gets partial ownership (since they end up paying for a lot of the arena costs)...
Plus, that would make relocation out of NHL cities more difficult due to the fans (who wouldn't care as much about profits) being actively involved in the process...
gigabased shannon takes as per usual. always side with the workers.
I wish the NHL had just stuck with a luxury tax and maybe had a cap floor. If GMs want to behave like drunken sailors, that's their problem. But what we've seen is that the top players' salaries have continued to skyrocket, and the middle 6 and 4-5 guys have been squeezed out in favour of 4th line, bottom pairing and even borderline NHLers, unless those guys want to take a big pay cut. It hasn't really solved much of anything except for increasing the salary gap between the guys at the top and everyone else as well as create very top heavy teams. Sure, you can draft well and maybe if you get lucky, for a few years, you can have a very deep team, like Tampa had. But eventually, you lose a lot of the guys you developed and even Ken Holland, the wizard of 90s drafting, hasn't been able to keep up his record in terms of developing a prospect pool and that's part of the reason he lost his job in Detroit. Eventually, your luck runs out and it's virtually impossible to have any long term success. Obviously, parity is good, but it's also punishing GMs who under the old system did a good job, because once one stupid GM gives someone a huge contract, other GMs have to follow suit. They have no other choice. The cap hasn't stopped that at all.
I agree with everything you’ve said until you got to Ken Holland when you called him a wizard of 90s drafting. There’s a lot you got wrong. For one he didn’t get the GM job until July 1997 so he only took place in the 1998 and 1999 draft. Only 2 names of note on that list. Datsyuk and Zetterberg. The only credit I give Holland is listening to Hakan Andersson and taking these guys as a late round pick. Jiri Fischer was good as well but unfortunately had his career shortened. Still a European player and scouted by Andersson. So no he was never a wizard at 90s drafting. Ken Holland literally has said himself that he credits his success to Andersson as well as some of the other scouts which I agree with. He wasn’t able to keep up a good prospect pool because he kept trading draft picks away and prospects to other teams for players to keep the playoff streak alive. It’s a huge part of the reason that the Redwings were so horrible at the end of the 2010s and beginning of the 2020s and the team still has more to go before it can be considered a true contender. Also don’t even get me started on Hollands absolutely abysmal contract signings. I mean we are still paying for Abdelkaders dead cap for a contract he never should have even got. Like it’s actually one of the worst contracts in probably the whole NHL.
You are asking the salary cap to fix something it was not mentioned to fix. It was only for one thing that it was started and that was to provide owners cost certainty.
The NHL is the healthiest it's ever been. Bettman and the lockouts were necessary.
It's such an esoteric concept. People getting paid millions of dollars (well, not all of them, of course) to play a game can't be relatable to your average joe that may be in a union fighting for a couple of dollars an hour wage increase.
I get the whole concept of elite people getting paid to perform... hell look at some of the baseball contracts... but at some point, we fans throw up the hands in disgust.
I'd love to go to more than two or three hockey games a year here in Tampa. But even though I make a decent living, it's a bit of a stretch to justify paying the coin for a family of three to be entertained for three hours.
How do the players and the league want to "grow the game" when it's not affordable for the people you are targeting for growth to actually go to the games?
When the next CBA negotiations happen, remember these 2 things:
1)Ticket price will go up, no matter the results of the negotiations. The increase rate is not related to team's expenses, it's related to how much they think they can get away with.
2) Team's yearly bottom line is mostly irrelevant. What's important to the owners is the team valuation. This has shown to be their greatest gain, no matter the team. Moruelo and Melnyk bought their team for around 100m (IIRC) and sold for a billion. That's the real money.
And to answer your final question, as the population grows, the attendance becomes less relevant. They don't really care who can afford to go to the game, as long as there are other streams of income. Adds, TV deals, merchandise are all part of that. All other leagues rely less on attendance, and hockey is going that way.
The league’s television deals expire after the 2027-28 season in the US.
I hope for no lockout but if it does happen I will watch the AHL
I like that you're optimistic about no lockout in 2026, but I am not as optimistic 😅
True but tbh I thought it was unfair to Coyotes fans that they lose their team when they had a plan that was plausible (the land deal thats in auction) Personally I would've told the Coyotes "Look u got one year to see if this land deal goes through if it does then great you can stay if it falls through after next year ur'e moving"
The NHL didn't want another game played at the Mullett. The land auction might not go to Meruelo at all. Now that the Coyotes have moved, other people who want the land are more likely to bid without worrying that they cost the city their hockey team. They couldn't stay in the Mullett until 2027 which was the likely earliest opening date for a new arena.
If the Coyotes didn't have 30 years of failing to find an arena before this, I might agree. The fact is, they never had an arena that worked and locals seem to loathe Alex Meruelo.
@@TheHockeyGuy Couldn't of stayed? I think if the building is there to be built I think the NHL could've "suffered" (and I use that term sarcastically) a few more years in the Mullet which from what I heard was great place to watch hockey. Look at Ottawa. They need a new building but people are still showing up despite half the city is immigrants (I used to live in East Ottawa and I swear I met more people from the Middle East than I did Canadians)
No, the players were DONE with the Mullett. Coyotes players felt the novelty wore off in year two and wanted out. 4600 maximum isn't an NHL arena, not even close. Utah will have a full barn of 12,000+ next season and beyond. Ottawa's a team turning a profit and had good attendance last season.
You're ignoring that there is no guarantee of winning the land auction and they had no plan C, since the land auction was plan B following the failure to get a building in Tempe. It had to end.
@@TheHockeyGuy That;s what I mean by saying either win the auction or leave. I personally dont support the players etc (eat the rich and all that) but Arizona despite a lot of people saying "its only snowbirds going to games" IS one of the growing areas for hockey esp with Leafs fans thx to Matthews and Knies.
Yeah but if the 4 year rule was put in then loui Eriksson wouldn't have gotten his retirement package
If another lockout happens players win the pr battle due to social media and the popularity of things like spitting chiclets
Maybe. But the owners won't care. They know the players won't wait forever to make a deal.
I hope there is no lock out
I love your views on workers! So many people do not understand that players are doing well, but still are workers at the end of the day
As an aside, a fitting jersey for this topic. CBA discussions are cringeworthy, as are this last season's All Star Carl's Jr/Hardee's/cartoonish jerseys.
pay the players. most physical sport. lowest salaries. these guys put their lives on the line
It's the lowest salaries because it generates the least amount of money.
OH no, not this topic!
What this tells me honestly is that the league is kind of in the healthiest position its ever been in, despite all the complaints people throw around. In its earlier days there was a lot more concern about the league's viability and sustainability that just doesn't seem to be an issue at all as of the last 10 years.
Thankfully the players did not get their way in 2005
I feel like at 40 teams we could almost justify promotion and relegation between two tiers lol
Where is 2026 olympics?
Northern Italy, Milan and Verona
Sucks because there will be another lockout. Gary needs to go
Exactly and The 2004-05 NHL Lockout Was Worse Then The 1994-95 NHL Lockout!
@@vinceniederman agreed. The 2004-05 one could have easily been avoided.
@@OilersFanReaction1 But Nope I Still Hate Gary To This Day As a Flyers Fan!
Why do you think weather or not Gary is the commissioner have anything to do with a lockout? Sorry, but whoever is the commissioner is going to do what the owners tell them to do.
@@csolivais1979 We Know He’s in Charge of The NHL Since He’s The Commissioner and Hopefully There’s No Lockout in 2026!
It's only entertainment.
I don't want the NHL to become the NBA, where the lunatics run the asylum.
Watching college football players fight for their NIL rights made me realize that owners really do have all the power in situations like this. And while the top players get huge salaries, the average player only gets about 2 years in the league at league minimum. After taxes and agent fees, that's not nearly as much money as the average fan would think. Plus that's after 10+ years of paying to play amateur hockey.
Lockout will happen when the Canucks are good 😂
The NHL is not going to allow common sense. The next team out will be the Sabres. Hamilton doesn’t have to be approved by the league. This happens around 2035-40.
What fo you mean that Hamilton does not have to be approved by the league?
I never understood players bitching about escrow. Taking the covid stoppage and payback circumstance out of the equation, a reasonable escrow number is just a timing difference. If the players don’t get the money back, then that means the circumstance that they collectively bargained for called for that money to go to the owners, and if you do, all is good, you’re made whole plus interest. Just negotiate a reasonable number, which might be sub 6% now that Covid payback is complete and we’re seemingly in a better spot. If I was an owner I wouldn’t want escrow to go away.
20:53 yeah I know the feeling, seeing money from my paycheck go towards things like 'social security' and taxes to Lord knows what government waste, and never seeing that money again 😑😑😑