TV Station Launches Multiple 4K Broadcasts OTA on ATSC 1.0
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- Опубліковано 20 тра 2024
- In this video I discuss a TV station that's broadcasting four channels in 4K, two in 1080p, and eight in 720p all on one single RF channel in the current digital TV standard. These channels can be picked up by most modern TVs without the need for an expensive ATSC 3.0 tuner. I also interview the TV station's owner with some questions about this miraculous discovery.
🗣️ Link to the full interview: • Full Interview with K0...
📺 Video of channels on K03IM-D being picked up on a TV: • K03IM-D Channel Surfing
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Hey all, in addition to the full interview, here is a link to a video of the channels on K03IM-D being picked up on a TV so you can see what's being broadcast along with the picture quality 👉ua-cam.com/video/hQeXYhZI6Bk/v-deo.html
🗣 Link to the full interview: ua-cam.com/video/oQdonemI5Ls/v-deo.html
Wow. I was bamboozled into thinking we needed ATSC 3.0 for 4k broadcasts for so long until now.
We all did!
We never needed it. If it ain't broke don't fix it. There's no point in 8k video if they start baiting with that next, to bring you in to the DRM ecosystem.
Silly us. We (they) need it for DRM. What a surprise. Hope more stations do this. Must be a huge cost savings for them vs a 3.0 upgrade
4k for TV's is already not really needed unless u sit right up at your TV.@@gamechannel1271
I'm thrilled this little station I've been seeing intermittently since last November is becoming a national subject among antenna-heads. I've been getting it occasionally in certain parts of town and it took me a couple of times finding it before I realized how weird it was that there were all these 4k channels. Little things like this remind me of what I once loved about Eugene. There used to be a lot of people here dedicating themselves to odd creative projects just to see if it could be done. I'd love to volunteer or work for channel 3 if I could get ahold of the guy and he could actually use the help.
This is monumental. This is a way around ATSC 3.0! Great job Tyler
Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed the video. It took a while to put together!
This is indeed tremendous! I have one of these TV brands. If we have a way around this ATSC 3 debacle then this man deserves credit and we should move forward with his idea. Here locally on my 4k I get some sports on Fox Network, but no others yet.
The catch is that the broadcasters don't WANT a way around ATSC 3.0. They're looking forward to imposing DRM and eventually charging people to receive their broadcasts. This also doesn't get the benefits of better multipath resistance that come with ATSC 3.0.
Ultimately, I think the FCC needs to ban the use of DRM on over-the-air TV. That's the only way forward. The broadcasters will just have to suck it up and deal with it.
Yeah great news. All heroes dont wear capes
I swear anything ATSC 1.0 can do anything 3.0 can with less DRM. Let’s go with that.
You put the words in the wrong order, but I get what you mean. ATSC 3.0 is a bust.
@@gamechannel1271 Then why is an ATSC 3.0 Mobile Media Gateway being installed on the entire US freeway system? Then why are ATSC 3.0 OTT channels popping up all over the place? Notice I said OTT, not OTA.
@@gamechannel1271 The only way ATSC 3.0 can be a good thing is if the government gets involved and bans encryption altogether.
ANTON for FCC Director!
This is the type of innovation that makes our country great.
It's great to see the little guy kicking the networks ass in their own field!
I see this as a significant development.
Once again Tyler you came through with a winner. You've got to go in front of Congress and explain this whole ATCS 3.0 mess, DRM, and get the losers out there to give us antenna viewers what ATSC 1.0 can really do.
This is in the works
It's to complex for congree to understand lol
@@stevenhanson4268 No, it's not. Let's not decide it's pointless without even trying.
I was surprised to learn that you could broadcast HEVC video over ATSC. I'm surprised more channels haven't done this.
None have attempted likely because they're not aware it's possible. However, if broadcasters were made aware, some might dedicate a small slice of their spectrum to one HEVC channel to test the waters.
@@AntennaManHope this stops DRM ATSC 3.0 for many more years replacing ATSC 1.0 on some TV Stations. DRM must be removed by law from ATSC 3.0 TV.
@@AntennaMan I hope so, as I'd rather see ATSC 1.0 keep going, with how badly ATSC 3.0 is being handled, and I'll have to check when I have time, and report back if my cheapo mostly non smart 55in Sceptre 4K TV can do HEVC via its USB port.
Also I think if more broadcasters started using HEVC over ATSC 1.0, we could see some Aliexpress Chinese company making a cheap decoder box for older TV that can't do HEVC, as they are quick to seize on stuff like this when possible.
@@AntennaMan Actually it has always been possible the problem was getting someone to actually do the proof of concept which Anton just did, I'm sure now that the cats out of the bag you can bet all those big corporations are not going to be too happy with this TV station which probably got an experimental licensing to do this without them knowing about it slipped under the radar as they say haha about time somebody pulled the rug out under the big guy.
@@AAa-qd8hbThat can't be emphasized enough.
So many broadcast networks could fit into a single RF channel suite at 720p and 1080i with the modern codecs. Eye-opening. I wish broadcast networks would opt for 1080p rather than push for 4K. 1080p would be great for sports and would reach a wider TV market.
In theory, more modern compression methods could get us closer to the 99-service maximum a channel can provide.
Indeed - the last two years of getting down to the "metal," the code, and all the rest up-close with broadcast systems tells me that a mere megabit can do sufficient work to convince most people they're seeing a decent, realistic image. However, this seems true only when that megabit is able to impact most areas of the screen, most of the time, and in a way that the human visual system is optimally matched and sensitive to. Stuff inside HEVC lets us get there in impressive ways, and my station makes liberal use of all of the so-called "advanced" features that many/most OTT/streamers/etc simply cannot afford to engage.
If we made a real effort to get more stuff over to HEVC, I think we'd see far more useful capacity open up to program popular media in native frame rates (ie. movies in normal 24p, not stuffed into 60i with 3:2 pull-up), HDR extensions, and all the rest - as well as scale up to 60 fps trivially, balancing coding efficiency and display complexity by sticking with a 1920x1080 resolution maximum. 2160p is, in my mind, just a "shiny red car" sort of thing at the moment - so I couldn't resist really digging in there.
@@antonkapela6784 it's fascinating, yeah. 1 megabit can be serviceable for a test. 8 megabits, which was the original high-quality bitrate for DVD 25 years ago, continues to be just as impressive at new resolutions *IF* you throw the processing power at it and use the most modern encoders. As a delivery format, 8 megabits seems to be always "more than enough for anybody". Meanwhile in production land, 25 megabits has been used since the ancient miniDV tapes in camcorders 30 years ago. As an editing format, 25 megabits seems to be always "more than enough for anybody"; if you're a purist or professional you'll probably notice 100 megabits if it's compressed and insane amounts of gigabits if it's uncompressed. The ridiculous nature of video is that PLAIN OLD SD uses as much as 270 megabits before it's compressed. Holy moly.
I cut the cord February 7th and couldn't be happier. Thank you Tyler for educating me.
You mean you replaced the cord. Internet is still a cord.
@@7531monkey cellular internet. No wire.
@@7531monkeyNope, I cut that cord too, so now I can only use internet via Wi-Fi and cannot have a wired connection, via Ethernet for instance. Wireless all the way!
Fascinating. Not sure I completely understand everything how's the consumer, but most of it I did. Thank you both for explaining it in a simple manner.
We lost distance and ease of use when they gave analog to the cell companies. Simple folk do not have the time to learn all of this. I do appreciate your work here for us.
This is amazing seeing 4k ota tv
Quite mindblowing. In Anchorage, Alaska we have a station owner squatting on a tower in the center of town. They air only RewindTV in order to keep their license. They could conceivably rent out their unused bandwidth to carry all the other network stations -- if those stations had anything in 4K to air.
I suspect the stations don't want this solution due to DRM protection or lack thereof using the better CODECs.
Yup, they are not using the air waves "in the public interest" but the FCC has no teeth and perhaps not even gums.
There are a lot of games being played. We have several companies in my area running multiple channels with the SAME content coming from the SAME tower! Why is this allowed? It prevents competition by tying up the entire spectrum with channels with duplicate programming. There ought to be a rule that every channel you own must have different content. Oh, and there ought to be a rule against encryption!!!!!
Wow! I loved this video! That was a great interview! ⭐
It is possible and it is happening! 📺
Thanks! Hopefully the main audience is able to watch the whole thing. My interview with ATSC president Madeline Noland ran a bit long in my CES 2023 video and actually hurt viewer retention so I had to cut parts of it out after posting.
Antenna Man is a goldmine of knowledge on this. Nobody like him I have ever seen.
If broadcasters are afraid of losing people because of advertising, then why encrypt with DRM so no one can see it? Thank you Tyler for all of your work! I’ve learned so much!
Excellent information. Thank you. You really need to take this information to Washington and the FCC. You need to invite Anton Kapela to the hearing. Now we know ATSC 3.0 is not necessary.
Assist him by contacting the FCC. It needs to be a collective effort of ALL taxpayers!
Resident evil 2 was released on a n64 cartridge with most of the cutscenes intact. The wonders of efficient codecs
Indeed, and that was before the modern codecs like hevc existed. With modern codecs. You can fit several minutes of video and audio on a floppy disk as well. It's truly amazing the world we live in.
@@KanawhaCountyWX There are videos now on UA-cam of an Atari VCS/2600 cartridge kit you can buy to playback video on the dang thing using some free open source codec converters, and while the video is squished, the audio considering the hardware is really good. It truly is crazy what you can do with efficient codecs these days.
@@CommodoreFan64 to think, the designers of these machines never intend them to do something as insane as this, yet here we are today.
@@KanawhaCountyWX indeed, and for a long time it's even been possible with a REU(Ram Expansion Unit), and an HDD kit on a 1Mhz Commodore 64 to playback full motion video, and even mono digital audio with the SID chip, or just mono digital audio without an REU or HDD kit, all thanks to very clever people in the demo scene, and efficient codecs/compression.
Honestly, I barely care about 4K broadcast. But if we could bump up all the major channels and subchannels to 1080p, that would be a huge win for picture quality. Right now the subchannels broadcast in a pitiful 480i, bitstarved so much that they collapse into pixels whenever the image is even slightly challenging to the ancient codecs being used. Concentrating on high quality 1080p also gets around the content drought in 4K; I should think nearly everything currently broadcast in 1080i/720p is available in 1080p without a lot of hassle. And if the signal is more robust, that's even better.
ATSC 3.0 is turning out to be a scam, AFAICT. Tell Sinclair to go pound sand, and work with what we already have.
Totally, it's clear that 4k is a fairly limited technology in the sense that you don't usually get anything special from it unless the screen's big enough, so a lot of people just aren't going to do it because it's more money for nothing, and not everybody has the room for a 60+inch tv. I might have to get one if I want to see the 4k subchannels on 3 though, and I am in Eugene so it's pretty tempting. I'm just wary of buying one and still not being able to see those channels. I'll have to make sure it'll do HEVC.
@@jamescarter3196 We have one 4K TV, and the rest are smaller 1080p. The 4K TV looks really good, but at our normal viewing distances you can't tell the difference between 4K and 1080p.
Anton Kapela looks like a bit of a rebel and a troublemaker plus he seems to know what he's talking about when it comes to the tech - just what the industry needs IMO.
If they can do any codec... forget HEVC, many of these 4K sets support AV1!
My LG CX OLED from 2020 can, I think the C9 did as well.
It's probably more common today than I imagine...
In Europe when DVB-T system was launched initially it used MPEG 2 but when HD channels began broadcasting it was used MPEG 4, and there was a compatibility problem. There were HD TVs that weren't able to decode HD channels because they didn't had MPEG 4 codec, Only Samsung and Sony could decode HD channels over DVB-T
When DVB-T2 was launched and it is the main standard in Europe the default coded is MPEG 4 for both SD and HD, the picture quality is very good for SD and excellent for HD compared with DVB-T. But in some countries like Poland when they switched from DVB-T to DVB-T2 the default codec is HEVC for all standards, this means that you can fit more SD and HD channels. I'm not from Poland but I have friends and they told me about th transition from DVB-T to DVB-T2 HEVC. Other countries use DVB-T2 MPEG 4, and HEVC is only used for 4K channels. The new models of STBs and TVs have HEVC it doesn't matter if they are HD or 4K.
Countries like France and Spain broadcast UHD channels OTA using HEVC codec.
In my case I have UHD combo receivers from AMIKO(can receive TV channels from both antenna and satellite) and when 4K channels will be available OTA I will be able to receive them. Just a rescan, for now I can receive FTA 4K channels on satellite.
Yeah we had the same thing in Australia but we just waited and the TVs just added the AVC support anyway. It's been nearly a decade now since you can rely on the new TVs having HEVC too, as well as DVB-T2 that never launched in this country.
There's an awful presumption that "someone" out there is watching with MPEG-2, so the primary channel always has to be maintained in SD and MPEG-2. They even launched a new channel in 2015 and found that 33% of the audience was lost if they didn't use MPEG-2, but that's 2015. The next time someone launched a new channel, it was AVC and it's been ever since. AVC feels so old now, lol.
Tyler, this is awesome! Thanks for sharing this innovative operator with us. Hope this demonstration helps push the needle towards advanced codecs
Atsc 1.0 was amended in 2008 to add h.264 (avc) as part of the spec and support it in the transport stream. 19mbps is crap for old mpeg2, but plenty for far more powerful codecs. The best part is that there are hardware encoders for avc and hevc now that will do this easily. Next up is to replace ac3 with opus. 😂
Exactly! Time for broadcasters to try codecs from this century!
Yes, and for some stuff they could use the codec in the extremely bit frugal mode on some material and it would be just fine. Talking heads don't need 4K or 60FPS
Ac3 is just fine
So my TV from 2011 can read this probably?
That makes sense since my 2007 tuner won't receive video for some of the subchannels on 3, but my 2015 tuner will.
This is one of the most interesting interviews I've ever seen. Amazing job Tyler!
Tyler is a one of a kind broadcaster. Thank you sir.
All commercial broadcast stations should be required to do this, they are public airways afterall and are supposed to be providing a public service!!
Fantastic! What a nice discovery. DRM free ATSC 1.0 still has value!
It's about friggin time. I've had a 4k TV since 2017 with basically zero broadcast content.
This is in my town and I've seen it for about the last five months! I can't receive the 4k signal but I can see it there. It's a fascinating clump of channels and I love the music video stuff especially.
What kind of TV do you have?
@@AntennaMan Currently I'm using a Toshiba LED from 2011 but so far I've only received the signal over outboard tuners (not sure if I've tried a tuner that's actually built in to a TV for this). I've been able to get it over an iView 3500 stb III and actually get images for most of the channels except 4k. I've also partially received it over a Toshiba/Funai VCR-DVD-rec machine from about 2007, which will give me audio for most channels but it'll only display video for a few of them. I don't have any 4k gear so I just haven't been able to try that yet. I can't receive it on the west side of town where I live, but I work for vacation rentals and took my stuff to a couple of those places, and have been able to receive it downtown at 11th and High street, and near Autzen Stadium, on the east side of town near the university. I assumed it was a university project.
@@AntennaMan I replied and it disappeared, so pardon me if that pops up again later. I don't think I've received the channel over a tuner in a tv (it's a pretty weak signal, seems to only have a few miles range), but I can get it downtown at 11th and High, and near Autzen Stadium over an iView 3500 STB III and see/hear all the stuff except the 4k (I have no 4k gear yet). Also on a Toshiba vcr-dvd-rec combo from 2007, it'll get audio on most channels but only a few will show picture, like the weather radar. I live on the west side of town and can't get it at all out there, about seven miles from the transmitter, but I work for a vacation rental company and have taken my stuff to several properties to see what I can get. EDIT: my usual antenna is a non-amplified RCA ANT-145.
Wow! I'm floored on this discovery. Good info.
This is amazing.
Very surprising and informative interview.
Thanks for watching it! Hopefully the interview wasn't too long. I tried to cut it down as much as possible so the video didn't run too long.
@@AntennaManDepending on the topic, I'm willing to watch a longer video. Obviously with videos longer than an hour I can't watch it in an entire viewing session....
As a European I wonder why this is news at all. Using HEVC and AVC for broadcast is something has been done in Europe for years using the DVB-T standard.
All TV sold in the *last decade* in Europe has been compatible with HEVC broadcast.
TV networks in eg. Germany is using only HEVC for encoding and broadcasting on DVB-T2 and have been doing so since 2019.
In general, this country is dumb and slow to adopt things. Just look at the whole green bubble issue among teenagers who don't use an iPhone, because we can't just download Whatsapp to solve the problem.
@@AntennaMan or just not worry about stupid bubbles on a phone when the RCS standard exists.
I agree 100%. The US is way too slow and dumb to adapt to new technologies. DVB-T/T2 and ISDB-Tb DTV OTA standards - which use MPEG-4 - have been in use for years all over the world and the US is still talking about ATSC-3.0. Other clear examples would be the metric system (widely used by the military) and the lack of high speed trains to name a few. Just pathetic.
I've heard that WhatsApp is wide open to data theft.
North America is old school when it comes to TV and Radio. We still use Analog AM and FM while Europe already switched to DAB.
Great interview with the owner of the station no less!
Love the channel... Keep up the great work! 😊
Right on Tyler! Very interesting.
Shared on FB ...Thanks for bringin' this to us bud! Great work as ALWAYSA!!!
The 2 biggest lies told by companies:
1. You need a special 4K antenna (that's flat and actually is terrible)
2. You need ATSC 3.0 to get 4K broadcasts
Man I wish Nashville had some stations that would do this
One of the best reporting videos for awhile. Thanks well done!
This is awesome. I know an Univision O&O uses MPEG-4 in my Market to repeat their Unimas Low Power Station on a their Full Market Station in 1080. This seems similar to that in a much grander scale. Great info even if info overload.
The Unimas station in your market is likely the biggest station in the country to use MPEG-4 over ATSC 1.0. The rest using it are all diginets or "junk channels." Check out the list below: www.rabbitears.info/oddsandends.php?request=mpeg4
Hilariously I am in the COL for the parent station so I get both. Certainly the most stable Class A Station I get. Both are Spanish Language as you know. Explains why the multiplex for me was new but the concept was introduced before this.
Love the geek session! How all this stuff works. Fascinating. Thanks Tyler!
Great job, Tyler, your content is always informative and newsworthy. Alan
I don't have the technical knowledge to say anything definitive, but I'll lay odds signal pirates circumvent DRM when the time comes to do so.
They absolute will. The goal of DRM isn't necessarily to entirely stop them but instead add a layer of protection in copyright law that basically guarantees any Locast will be shut down.
@@AntennaManNoooo I want locast !!!
You think pirates are going to do the thing they have been doing since DRM was invented? 😮
@@AntennaManPirates will always find exploits in the DRM code. Patching one exploit usually opens another.
Better yet, contact your congressional rep and the FCC and tell them you don't want DRM or any encryption on these bans. Let's stop this before it begins!
Still disgusted im paying outrageous bills for xfinity and its 1080. 4k with an add on box, but main unit dvr STILL 1080 in 2024. Unreal.
I my opinion, the FCC should shut down ATSC 3.0 with it DRM issues and promote this rout !!!
Great coverage of tv reception issues. I had no idea.
How cool is this!
Great video Tyler…..
Thanks Tyler. I always wondered if they could use another codec. Now I know!
Here in Spain the public broadcaster RTVE dared to launch a 4K version of its main channel La 1 over the old DVB-T (the European equivalent to ATSC 1.0) modulation. It occupies about half the bandwidth of the RF channel it belongs to.
Every other channel here is broadcasting in HD (AVC/H.264), and still keeping DVB-T modulation since February 14.
from Morocco i watch LA 1/2/24H HEVC UHD channels via satellite 30W (multistream TM2I) on h.265/1080p (not 4K) STB .
me extrana que haya gente de otros paises mirando este canal que por cierto no trata mucho con questiones internacionales. pues el contenido es mayormente para el consumo norte americano
OMG, this guy is brilliant!
Great video and information Tyler. It would be much cheaper for TV set and TV tuner box manufacturers to include the necessary codecs to permit the reception of 4K and 1080p over ATSC 1.0, than go through cost of the NextGen TV certification process and licensing and including NextGen TV tuners in their products.
I have said plenty of times that the reason that the local TV station ownership groups and the NAB are pushing for ATSC 3.0 with DRM encryption is money, not piracy. They are losing millions on retransmission fees, due to people ditching cable and satellite TV, most TV streaming providers pay the broadcast networks directly for streaming local TV stations, and local station advertising revenue is significantly dwindling. With DRM encryption, the local stations can add pay services over ATSC 3.0 to make up for lost revenue. For me, this line of thinking is wrong, and ATSC 3.0 will be a total flop.
The local TV station ownership groups have tried, and so far failed, to get Congress and the FCC, to force streaming TV providers to pay the ownership groups for local station access instead of the broadcast networks for local TV station retransmission. It is interesting that DirecTV is now pushing for streaming TV either through the use of dedicated receivers and service contracts or DirecTV Stream, with customers using their own streaming devices, like a Roku, and no service contracts. I feel that the reason they are switching to this model is to eliminate the high cost of satellite retransmission and purchasing and launching replacement satellites, thus allowing them to negotiate with broadcast networks, instead of local TV station owners for local TV access, since the rules for satellite TV providers to negotiate with local TV station owners for local TV retransmission wouldn't apply to them anymore. I can see the cash strapped DiSH Network doing the same thing. They are already allowing their customers to ditch access to local TV stations and get a discount on their service.
Wow, what a brilliant dude to see what was possible and to just test it out and discover there is a way to use 1.0 more efficiently and not even need 3.0. I also like how he called out the encryption as gatekeeping. It is. They are controlling who can make hardware by limiting manufacturers from the encryption keys. We've seen MP4/AVC creeping into some markets. While not great for much older tvs... it's much easier to make a converter box that can handle that. The $100 Tablo 4th gen just added MP4 channel decoding to the latest firmware.. and I'd imagine if this upgraded 1.0 technology grew beyond this single station, we could more easily get HEVC in a tablo or other cheap converter as long as there's no need to decrypt anything. I also like how there is room here for better handling of weak signals. So maybe a line disappears for a second and the whole screen doesn't go blank.
This is really where the ATSC should be going. Not being funded and ran by hardware makers and station owners... but more innovators that want to make what we have better, not reinvent the wheel and try to force everyone to change.
Thanks man, you get it, exactly.
Thank you Anttennaman, for sharing your awesome video ❤❤❤.
This feels groundbreaking!!! MPEG 2 needs to be moved away from on ATSC 1.0 to at least broadcast all sub channels in 1080p while waiting for 4k programming!!!
Other countries have already done this. We're behind in the US.
I work at a TV station in Oklahoma that broadcasts 2x 720p and 4x 480i channels. One of our engineers talked about doing some upgrade to the equipment with DigitalBroadcast a while back, DB did their thing, and that enabled us to change to a different codec (I think it is AVC), and we now broadcast 3x 720p and 3x 480i with no noticeable reduction in quality to the HD channels, but I think eng. borrowed some bandwidth from the SD channels to help. From what I understand they said it may be possible to do 4x HD, but that may be pushing it without sacking a SD or further reducing bandwidth to the other channels, for now at least.
Edit: Still using MPEG-2, not AVC. No codec change.
All possible, indeed, with modern encoding methods. What was most surprising to me, was finding that many progressive formats were already well supported in ATSC1 mpeg2 decoders, but for whatever reason, just weren't chosen by broadcasters. For example, instead of just rolling with 1080p30 or p24 native content, all the big names resorted to complicated nonsense to stuff 24p into 60i, defeating some of the useful coding efficiencies that even legacy stuff like mpeg2 could offer. Putting 30p into 60i is less terrible, but still - encoder complexities were created unnecessarily (to be efficient) - all to avoid little "pops" or blips on consumers' displays when switching formats... set it and forget it: 60i for ever!
Very interesting. Thank you Tyler. 😊
Great info as always. Thanks!!👍😎
19 Mbps is a ton of bandwidth when you look at how something like Netflix can squeeze a decent picture quality in 1~6 mpbs
Exactly. The key is to use more efficient codecs that weren't developed in the 90s like MPEG-2.
Netflix isn't squeezing 4k into a 1-6 Mbps stream. Regardless, they're all pre-encoded files encoded with highly-optimized software encoders. On-the-fly hardware encoders are highly inefficient. 19 Mbps even at only 1080p isn't going to look very good from one of those boxes.
19 still mediocre , our terrestrial channels here in Morocco(north Africa using DVBT2) all have above 16mbps and still look like garbage with no Dolby sound .
@@timramichSeriously there is a cartridge that just recently got released for the Atari 2600/VCS that can playback full motion video with mono audio off an SD card, so if someone can do that, then it's possible to have a couple of 4K channels and 1080p channels over 19 Mbps.
Also I'm at work on a 25 Mbps /5 Mbps cable internet connection running a small Senior Center with multiple users connecting to my network with their phones, tablets, & laptops everyday, while running 2 TV's with a mix of ONN boxes/Roku Boxes at 1080p, with enough bandwidth left over for own work laptop to do whatever I need to do, so again 19 Mbps with efficient codeces is enough.
@@younesbentahar oh nice ppl from marrakesh watch this channel. this is amazing
I figured these codecs wouldn't work on the TV tuner due to how these TV's are engineered. Hopefully it takes off at least in a few markets. It's a win win for everyone, just have a sub channel that use these codecs for supported TV's. Maybe we wouldn't get much true 4K content, but it could at least give us progressive scan with a higher resolution than 720.
WOW! This is great info!
Thanks for the valuable information Tyler!👍👍👍👍👍😊😊
an exciting discovery!
Brilliant reengineering for sure, but other than "value added" marketing, I'm lost on the 4K to consumer use perspective. I'm an engineer working in both audio and video worlds and I find most people can't really tell the difference, unless you position the viewer sooo close the monitor, the image overall is impossible to take in. Besides, I can't see the need to watch "The Price Is Right" in 4K. 720 works just fine.
11:29 as you mention, this is profit driven and not customer need driven. It's snake oil and public loves it. The proof is... 8k TVs already available and very rare contend is even 1080. Ok, Netflix streams 4k. And big TVs are great but you have to move further back to take in the program and then the high resolution is a diminishing return. Sorry for being a negative Nancy, but it's the truth.
The main demand for 4K comes from live sports fans as the compression artifacts on the current 720p/1080i broadcasts can get bad when there's a lot of movement.
Great input. Thank you.@@AntennaMan
Thanks!
Very impressive !
h264 AVC is supported on most older TVs too, any flat panel with a usb input would play it back
Exactly!
thanks for an informative video
It's not surprising. Old tv and tuner support is the holdback for ATSC 1.0 broadcasters. They're concerned about supporting as many people as possible. It's also nice they found a better way to send a reliable signal. Great news for those areas not quite upgrading to ATSC 3.0.
but they only need the first subchannel for that -e.g. 3.1 or 4.1 - the other subs can use mpeg4 or hevc for newer TVs/tuners.
In my market there are various sub channels that come in at 480i. Never understood why they aren't at least 720p.
There isn't enough bandwidth to host more than two HD channels on a single RF channel if the old MPEG-2 codec is used - which most TV stations use because it's supported by all TVs and DVRS with a built-in ATSC 1.0 tuner.
Amazing!
It does work. Because this is what UA-cam is doing right now. Because I am able to check the broadcast speeds on my with my Vizio with the UA-cam cog gear. And it does support all these different codexes. I monitor my UA-cam very thoroughly. Because they like to use an auto format as well. And when the signal runs low. It switches to a lower frame rate. And it looks horrible. So I force my Vizio to lock in the higher formats.
I'm so tempted to to toss the tv into the truck bed and head down to Eugene just to see if the set works with this station!
I would love to see the broadcasters get away completely from interlaced signals. 480i and 1080i. Go with a minimum of 720p. That would be huge in and of itself.
I prefer 1080i over 720p.
Really enjoy the channel Tyler , not holding my breath for the promise of 4k broadcast, when in Detroit market most stations are 720p at best....
Good video, and nice work Anton Kapela, but now I'm disliking ATSC 3.0 even more.
ATSC 3.0. A lot promised but little delivered.
Got that right. The industry has seriously over promised and under-delivered with it.
Good information
I have given up on ATSC 3.0. Even 1.0 can deliver 4k but won’t do it. Most companies seem to be satisfied with 720 or 1080. I have had a 4k tv for years and rarely get 4k. The same for Dolby surround sound.
What about the audio capability? Atmos capable?
A most enjoyable vid thanks
W09DJ-D Catholic Television, an EWTN affiliate in Wilkes Barre PA, is 1080p.
It was listed on rabbitears as being 1080p.
I wondered if it was a misprint.
I put that channel on, checked the info on the LG TV to be sure, and yes it is 1080p rather than 1080i.
Very interesting! I'll have to check for myself the next time I'm in the Wilkes-Barre area.
I think Antenna Man needs to take another signal tourism trip :) Would love to see this
10:20: Just wanted to note that in the Washington DC area/market, one of our sub-channels has moved to h.264. I didnt know until i tried a old Insignia converter box...
10:53: I wouldn't mind the jump to at least 1080 progressive on OTA channels...
SPREAD THE WORD!!!!! AMAZING!!!
Bit rate is more important the 4k resolution. If they would use the most efficient compression along with the highest bit rate, the picture quality would improve.
Nice interview! Very interesting. More people like Anton are needed in this business. Do you know if he plans to expand on this idea and bring it to more areas? Does it use ATSC 1.0 modulation? IMO, people would buy add-on tuner boxes with updated demodulation and codecs etc. if they knew there was good programming to watch.
It's still using ATSC 1.0 modulation (8VSB) and the same transmission stream format for carrying multiple subchannels. The change is that some or all of the channels are using codecs other than MPEG-2. TVs built for streaming generally support AVC (MPEG-4, H.264) and HEVC (H.265), and so those are being used. Those codecs are also in the ATSC 3.0 standard.
AV1 would be another alternative but fewer TVs support it for now, and it is not a required part of ATSC 3.0. Netflix and UA-cam both offer AV1 streams now to devices that support them, and they are even more bit-efficient than HEVC, so support for that codec is likely to become common in future TVs. VVC (H.266) has also been defined but hardware and software for it are not yet readily available.
The advantage of this scheme is that many newer ATSC 1.0 TVs will receive these broadcasts right out of the box. No add-on tuner is required. Owners of older TVs will need a set-top box.
ISDB-tb uses HEVC + AAC here in Latin America and works great 👍🏻
I live in Eugene Oregon and I'm familiar with this station. 1, I cannot pick up any of the 4K channels. 2, this station has a tendency to disappear and I haven't seen it in a couple months.
Keep in mind that K03IM-D broadcasts on the low VHF band so you need a low VHF capable antenna to pick it up reliably. What kind of antenna and TV do you have?
I think they only get range when the squirrels that power the transmitter are feeling strong.
I have a Phillips 32'' smart TV and indoor HDTV antenna. Channel 3 isn't the only LP station that doesn't come in half the time.
Tyler very informative video!! Good find. I know NBC does and has a 4K channel for each Olympics. Not sure how it gets passed around. You would think their O&O stations would pass this out OTA. BTW, you can always upconvert 1080 to 2160 if you need a 4K content stream. Not the best but you could gauge viewership this way. Also this would be cheaper than changing out cameras, switchers and edit rooms etc..
You just knocked it out of the park.
Agreed! 💯 Fantastic work!!
Antenna-Anton sounds like a really cool guy, pretty smart too. Antenna-Man-Tyler, i think you're okay too bro 😉
If that isn’t a poke in the eye of ATSC and A3SA
It definitely is. I'll probably bring it up to them at NAB if I have the chance. I'm not sure if any member of the ATSC or A3SA wants to talk to me. They probably blame me for the bad press coverage of DRM. It's everyone else's fault!
@@AntennaMan You want to find the truth in anything, follow the money. Seems like collusion under the guise of standards organizations. And the FCC is letting it happen! Keep up the good work, but be careful where you tread.
Hi @AntennaMan - Looking through the specs of the 2024 Samsung lineup, they have dropped ATSC 3.0 from all but their Flagship 8K model. Looks like ATSC 1.0 will need to hang around a while.
That's so cool! HEVC with DVB-T2 is used in the Netherlands for like 5 years now...
Indeed - and France, as of 2018, had required everything to migrate to AVC or HEVC; which was also great to see. K03IM-D actually went on the air in 2021, but I had this all worked out in the lab early in 2020. So, definitely behind, but it wasn't my day job...at the time ;)
@@antonkapela6784 It only sucks the Netherlands doesn't use 4k...
Seems to me that a network like PBS could work with member stations to run some 4k tests like Anton... they are not beholden to advertisers in the traditional sense, and some member station operators may be willing to take a gamble (Even if it means having a 4k simulcast on a subchannel of the main PBS feed).
Ironically PBS was a huge pioneer of HD on ATSC 1.0. Yet, they aren't really involved with the ATSC 3.0 rollout in most markets. They probably see all of the smoke and mirrors. The broadcasters pushing it are the ones directly making money from it.
This could open a real can of worms for the ATSC 3.0 Drm stations!
Wish they would leave 1.0 alone and let us have more channels and better HD quality and do away with 3.0 but that won't happen
Actually, if not enough people adopt ATSC 3.0 because there are limited set top boxes from the A3SA gatekeeping, it might flop. If that happens, we might see TV stations use more advanced codecs over ATSC 1.0. Heck, it should happen now anyway.
@AntennaMan I hope it does I don't want to go buy another converter box with my coat hanger antenna which is doing a great job for me got 48 channels so far not complaining about it
@@AntennaMan Hopefully, more TV makers will follow LG's lead in dropping ATSC 3.0 for their new TVs.
Very educational