Experimental Primer-Actuated Semiauto Springfield 1903
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- Опубліковано 21 сер 2024
- / forgottenweapons
During the 1920s, a lot of experimental rifle development work was being done in the US. The military was interested in finding a semiautomatic rifle, and plenty of inventors were eager to get that valuable military contract. One particular item of interest to the military was the possibility of being able to convert large existing stockpiles of bolt action 1903 Springfield rifles into semiautomatics, and that is what this particular example was an attempt at.
This rifle is built with a barrel and receiver made in 1921 (it was not uncommon for the government to provide parts to inventors working in this area), and uses an operating system which is pretty much unheard of today: primer actuation. In this system, the primer pushes back out of the cartridge case (intentionally) upon firing, acting as a small piston. This pushes the firing pin backwards (as well as the bolt face in this rifle), which begins the process of unlocking and cycling. It is a system that saw some popularity for a brief time in the 20s, as it allowed semiautomatic action without the need for a drilled gas port or a moving barrel - several of John Garand's early prototypes operated this way. However, substandard performance and the need for special ammunition (most military ammunition had primers solidly crimped in place) led to its abandonment.
/ forgottenweapons
Sometimes the failures are more interesting than the successes.
Sound advice for life
Randy Thomet Well said friend
To be completely honest. I like the ones that did not go far. It's a great way to get a gun absolutely no one else has. Even as a show piece
That’s even more true of people than it is of guns.
We learn more from failure than success.
It's so frustrating that nobody took 5 minutes to glue a pistol grip onto that thing
boobe fetta cheese it would make it less authentic
+Alexander feta cheese He was referring to when the rifle was built.
but why
@illegiblesmile7621 because the trigger is about seventeen miles from where your trigger finger would actually be while shooting.
For real
12:40
Anyone else want to see the semi-auto disconnecter removed so we could have a full auto 1903?
That would be the most uncontrollable, impractical, and unusable .30 cal firearm on the planet.
Yes
Worse recoil than an M-14; fun to watch but not to Use!
Or just install the bolt tail upside down, then you would have a open bolt 1903 springfield. Just point it and pull back the charging handle.
Sounds like something I'd expect to find/craft in Fallout
That would just be a BAR on a diet
one of the Launchers in use by our military today, the SMAW, uses a primer actuated 9mm spotting round. it's called 9x51 SMAW and is a very weird round.
That's actually made of a .358 Winchester (.308 necked up) with the back end bored out, and a .22 Hornet blank put in place as the "primer". The Hornet has enough power to push the 9mm tracer bullet out at about 750 fps or so to match the ballistics of the SMAW projectile, and the Hornet case setback provided the energy to operate the action. The put out an RFP for replacing the SMAW spotting rifles about 20 years ago, and I was very surprised they just didn't go with a long barreled .357 revolver firing a tracer loaded up to .38-200 levels, but they actually specified a semi-automatic action in the requirements. I actually still have the descendant of the external ballistics code I wrote to do the ballistic matching on the drop table for the SMAW.
@@fluzwup wait SMAW rockets match the ballistic arc of .38-200? Thats...really weird
@@tomaspabon2484 Not really a ballistic match, just a match of a possible projectile weight, and the muzzle velocity. The SMAW is a big diameter, but low density projectile, and these tend to cancel each other out. I think I reverse engineered it's BC something on the order of .45 to .55 on the G1 scale, and it's moving about 750 fps. So the .38-200 load gets you the velocity you need, but you'd have to load it with very ballistically efficient .358 rifle bullet to get the low drag you need--something with a long point, and a boattail. You wouldn't be able to chamber the result in a typical revolver, since the pointed bullet would be way too long to fit the cylinder. You'd need, ideally, a custom chamber for .38 Special length brass, with allowances for a very long overall length, and longer freebore. You could also do something similar with a .30 Carbine case and a low drag .308 bullet.
Why is the trigger sixteen miles away from where you'd put your hand?
Your profile picture perfectly complements your comment :D
the engineers were extremely busy putting pistol grips on their stocked lugers, which were massively more successful than these.
The back of the receiver was lengthened by a couple of inches, which pushed the trigger forward. As Ian said, this is obviously an experimental piece that didn't go anywhere, and they'd probably have either decided to figure out a way to move the receiver back in the stock so the normal grip would work, or mounted a pistol grip in order to fix it if they had continued working on it.
Or this was salad finger's personal gun.
glad I wasn't the only one to notice that
So did they just have an ungodly number of BAR mags laying around? Seems like every experimental rifle of the early to mid 20th century used BAR mags...
It was the only box magazine in general use by the US military at the time.
Forgotten Weapons
Thanks Ian. That makes sense. I forget that removable box magazines weren't common quite yet for every firearm.
Also, thanks for being so awesome and sharing all this information with us. It's really amazing. It's kind of like a personal specific history channel episode for each video you do.(you know, before history channel got really not history oriented?)
the action is very similar to a benelli semi auto
zendell37
Why didn't the M1 Garand use the Browning mag? It seems like the one rifle that didn't use it.
For crying out loud, lan....you keep teaching this old man things l never heard tell of before. Your knowledge just keeps blowing my socks off - well done, sir!
I love that you actually break stuff apart and explain the mechanics, it is one thing to explain how it works, another to show it in detail.
Gun "Nerdery" is why we're here!!!
Amazing to think just a few mm movement could actuate that heavy mechanism. Physics cannot be denied. What finally killed primer actuation? Reliability/low accuracy or primer separation danger?
Specialty ammo and unreliability.
+Forgotten Weapons Thanks for the response! Happy labor day
When you pull the trigger and you only hear a click when 30 huns are trying to kill you will spoil the shooting experience.
Primer actuation requires a very high initial impulse to kick the primer pocket back with enough force that a few hundredths of an inch of movement has enough energy to actually work the action of the rifle. The Army switched to the slower-burning Improved Military Rifle (IMR) powders around the time the rifle Ian showed was developed (as well as John Garand's early development work with primer-actuated rifles), and the new powders didn't have the "oompf" of the faster burning Pyro D.G. needed to reliably operate the action. This is also why Garand switched to a gas-operated system which was eventually used in the M1.
+Pieter Batenburg Not to mention the arrangement of your internal organs.
That's probably the most elegant semi-auto bolt action conversion I've seen. I'd love to hear more about why the primer-actuated system was never adopted by anyone. Thanks!
least elegant*
The death of any primer actuated system for military use was staking the primers so they couldn't move. This was done for machine gun use and carried over to the rest of ammunition manufacture. Also the system was very sensitive to different pressures
ohhh a self-LOADING rifle. I thought he said self-LOATHING rifle. That's something completely different.
It might be both. :-D
Well it isn't exactly all that pretty
CthulhuInc SA80?
"Everything just falls to pieces." Ian McCollum 2016
i can already see somebody buying this and putting an AR-15 pistol grip behind the trigger lmao
Pretty unusable without pistol grip.
definitely what I was thinking.. add a pistol grip, now you've got a pretty cool, usable gun
Mob only if you can reproduce the bullet used with the same primer... tuff to find I would think
Heretic - buy a Mosin-Nagant or something manufactured in equal numbers (or a modern gun!) if you want to screw around with it :(
Damned, can't edit my posting...oh well, I'll write a new one (google? Fix it please ^^):
It might make it useful, sure! However you don't purchase this as a "useful" gun :( - buy a regular surplus weapon (we know they work after all) or even something modern if that's the goal :)
If I didn't like "gun nerdery" I wouldn't be here. Thank you.
I wish I was rich so I could purchase these insanely rare weapons to have a gunsmith replicate them so I could have to original showpiece and the modern replica to shoot them.
I really want to know what the recoil feels like on a weapon like this.
Boy don't i wish wish the same
Harsh.
I'm working on becoming a machinist and a gunsmith so I can do just that. I got the idea from watching this channel a lot.
For your sake, I hope you know where that profile picture is from.
I would never use an avatar of something I haven't watched or read.
I was relieved when you talked about the position of the trigger being so far ahead. It was driving me crazy!
*I love wandering through Ian's back-catalog, and finding episodes that I missed!*
What a wonderful piece of engineering - and I have to think, that were it not for the failure of the primer actuated theory itself, this one coulda been a contender.
But, by the time the primer actuated theory was dropped in the 1930s, the Garand and Pederson designs were already around, themselves having experimented with primer activation - and the need to convert 1903s was just, not really a thing.
This one is a real, "If they had only..." type of design; if they had only gotten over the fear of gas ports affecting accuracy 20 years earlier, and ported it... we might have gone into WWII with a more refined version of this rifle. Perhaps a pistol gripped model. Maybe in H-Bar version replacing the BAR? It's fun to think of those possibilities.
I wonder if there were issues with the 1903 receivers handling the extra strain of semi-automatic fire.
I really hope you collect all of these videos one day into a book or books (I'm so last century). A comprehensive book of experimental gun designs, showing the mechanical evolution and dead ends of each type of firearm would be an amazing resource. I'm no expert, but I can't believe there is anything out there like that that is as exhaustive and hands-on as your research.
I enjoy watching and listening to Ian describe the way a prototype works or how the manufacturing done. This video did not disappoint.
Militaries don't like the words special ammunition. They want everything to be logistically smooth.
Z M If I ever met a military that could legit claim to be logistically smooth I would be in heaven
Equally primer actuated means more crap to fall in and jam up your action if the primer popped out (which was already a known issue and why the US military pinned primers at the time of WWII).
It seems like they had to make more parts than they were trying to save. A few of those parts were hand filed.
Although when you're at Rock Island Auctions, you don't get to shoot the firearms...bummer...I find it fascinating that the curators / auctioneers let you take apart, in some cases, very, very rare firearms. You must have a TON of street cred in the gun culture! Thanks for the insight into some very cool firearms.
Earl Fillmore It's,likely that they agree to let rock island take it apart, and rock island let's him cover them as free advertising, cuz trust.
Ian most likely just leaves the gun on the table for somebody else to reassemble.They draw straws to decide who has that job.There's a scramble to take the day off!
Hi Ian, in the 60s Chinese developed a prototype 66-136 assault rifle. It used a similar action principle, and was capable of semi/ full auto firing with reasonable reliability and accuracy. Chinese engineers had some excellent ideas to resolve casing ejection difficulty issues and gas sealing issues. In the end, this rifle lost in the trials due to its accuracy was just a bit less than the traditional locking system prototypes. For more details, maybe you can contact your friend Timothy Yan for getting more info from Chinese web sites.
Wow you could tell that this was a very early attempt to convert a bolt action to semi.
They could have used the same system but added a barrel gas port right where that lever was and voila!
Thanks for showing the inner workings of these early conversions Ian.
I know I've learned a lot watching your videos 👍
Wow that is a neat frickin rifle! I have never heard of primer activated weapons until this video. So cool. Thanks for the video, Ian!
Hey Ian, idea for you, could you check out the Charleston machine gun? It is a New Zealand Automatic rifle converted from a Lee Enfield due to a shortage of Bren guns and fears of Japanese Invasion. Looks really unique and is well and truly a forgotten, but noteworthy weapon, should be right up your alley.
I have not yet gotten my hands on an example to video, but I do have a pretty good written article on them: www.forgottenweapons.com/light-machine-guns/charlton-automatic-rifle/
Thank you so much, mate, good luck getting a look at one and thank you for the article link, very interesting and informative with your trade mark enthusiasm and style. Take care, see ya later.
Try the Reider Automatic Rifle, as well. It's another SMLE conversion, similar to the earlier Howell rifle, just built by South Africa, like the Charleton, to make for a shortage of Brens.
THank you ian! you made me realize I don't like programming and I plan to take on mechanical engineering as soon as I get discharged, thanks! and goodday!
LoL, if only we still had factories that made stuff here.
+Ken ibn Anak
Engineers design and make stuff not just make ir
Some of your finds are simply amazing, history, manufacturing, weapons are rolled into one presentation..... Thank you Sir. 👍✌️
Looking forward to the updated video for this one.
Add a pistol grip. Really interesting video. I love these experiments based on existing platforms.
To date this rifle we must first turn it over and buy it a drink
I haven't tried this trick with guns but yeah. It usually works. :-D
Gotta say, that's one of the better conversions I've seen.
"Looks like a Springfield 1903 but with some lumpy growths"
Words you don't want to hear about a rifle, nor a person
Fascinating.
I was thinking of a similar design for a completely different reason.
I was thinking of having a spring loaded boltface on an open bolt design to work as a simple blowback design on high pressure rounds.
The sprung face would have a very strong spring with a short throw, it only needs to hold pressure while the round fires.
This pressure comes from the mass of the bolt slowing, stopping and accelerating through the short travel of the boltface.
I love these experimental guns. It's a history of ingenious approaches to doing things. But that's a lot of work to make a firing pin that thin do.
If you read Hatcher's Notebook, he states that the Army provided M1903 Springfield rifles or components thereof, to people working on semi-auto rifle designs in order to save them the cost of manufacturing those components - which most of them weren't equipped to do in the first place. That's why most of the early semi-auto military designs are based on the M1903 - some being so crude as a Rube Goldberg contraption to automatically manipulate the original bolt handle. John Browning made similar designs to operate the lever on Winchester lever action rifles, and the New Zealand Army manufactured a full-auto conversion of the SMLE during WWII. And FWIW, John Garand's original rifle design was primer-actuated.
It's always interesting to see these early experimental semi-autos deing dissected; what seems like a system that would obviously be too ridiculously complex to even manufacture prototypes was just the norm, semi-autos being uncharted, rough waters for most countries. But without these stupidly-complicated early designs we wouldn't have what we have now. Crazy to think about.
I liked how this video was a journey of discovery. Very interesting and unique firing mechanism right here.
2:38 That one kid who takes a "Primer-Actuated Semiauto Springfield 1903" in a fancy dress to an expensive restaurant, but finds out she's just a tease and won't even give him a goodnight kiss.
wow Ian, I thought there wasn't anything else new to learn. "primer actuated"...Whoa!
You have to love most of the bolt action conversion to semi action conversion rifles with Rube Goldberg designs
What I find so fasinating is just how many different ways Nations tried to convert bolt action rifles into self loaders
Really looking forward to seeing what this rifle brings.
@Forgotten Weapons
It looks to me like it is case head activated, rather than primer operated. Pimer actuation would have a larger hole in the bolt head, at least the diameter of the primer, and a shoulder on the firing pin for the primer to push. There would also be no need for the spring loaded bolt head if it was primer operated. It looks to me like this would use standard ammunition ( might have had to be lubricated, or waxed), and that the initial rearward thrust of the cartridge pushed the bolt head back until it was stopped by the locked bolt body. During this initial rearward movement, the bolt head is also functioning as a tappet piston pushing on the firing pin/operating rod assembly. The firing pin/operating rod assembly then travels a longer distance before the cam track starts to unlock the bolt body. By the time that the bolt body is unlocked, pressure will have dropped to safe levels.
Looks much cleaner than another self-loading attempt -- the Howell Automatic.
This is a design by F. K. Young. Patent number 1,840,551
A full disassemble... very satisfying. Thanks Ian.
It's nice when you get permission to up to your elbows in a firearm and reverse engineer it.
- Eddy
Edit:
.. permission to go ...
Weird lumpy growths... Love it.
My first thought seeing this, "Mom I want the Winchester G30R." "We have Winchester G30R at home" Winchester G30R at home:
Your mom and my mom share similarly thrifty points of view.
incredibly complex; in a way. Well thought out ,to a point. Perhaps created more to test the ammo than to make an effective semi-auto rifle. I was surprised at the estimate. I think it will prove to be low. The incredible diversity in, ""One Of" firearms is so amazing.. I especially like this one. In the 60's you could buy a decent 03 for $30. Wish I had put a few back.
15:11 - "Alright, you guys wanna see a little bit more 'gun-nerdery' here?"
Yes, oh god please, yes.
"Ok we want to convert our old guns to a new technology... to save money. Oh I have an idea but it requires a special ammunition and is rather petite.... YEP lets invest money in that"
So I take it you've never met the government before?
I have fond memories of six years of painting walls and buffing floors in our squadron for a General's visit that NEVER came.
Great find. A truly interesting piece of history. Thanks Ian.
Interesting historical piece. Cool.
This is probably me being dumb, but I'm curious. That notch on the bar that engages the mainspring is what engages with the trigger mechanism. Without it, there would be nothing to hold the firing pin back to stop it from hitting the primer on a chambered round. You said that that piece can be installed upside-down, meaning that the notch wouldn't be able to engage the trigger, meaning that you couldn't use the trigger to fire the gun. But, would it also mean that there would be nothing stopping the firing pin from going all the way forward and hitting the primer? If that were the case, you could (in theory) pull back the charging handle and let go, allowing the action to chamber a round and allowing the firing pin to go all the way forward, hitting the primer, firing the round and cycling the action, and there would be no way to stop this because the trigger, the thing that prevents the firing pin from fully completing its travel, is disengaged from the action, meaning that the action could go on in full auto until you run out of rounds.
I'm probably wrong, but that seems like a major design flaw if you can turn a Semi-auto Springfield into a nigh-uncontrollable .30-06 automatic rifle by just flipping an internal component upside down.
Modification 2, right after putting a functional pistol grip on it.
aah man, I could understand how that trigger would have felt to the shooter... since I used to fire air rifle at the age of 8
Fuck I want one, I want to see this shoot. Whether it not it made it into service, this is a piece of art and I need it. Still interesting as all hell.
The time alone to redevelop this gun probably warranted the buy of new rifles. Such a complicated conversion :)
It's a proto-Garand. Now, I don't mean that John was inspired by this. I mean this got the US government all excited by semi-autos, it proved some viability and likely spurred further desires for semi-autos. The overall layout and very familiar handling probably influenced what the guys overseeing procurement would like, it's obvious that the Garand was excellent but could have been much better if not for certain limitations in knowledge at the time and budget constraints.
A new stock with a Thompson style pistol grip, minor mods to the receiver, a BAR magazine, and voila! a semi-auto rifle. I wonder why the US Ordnance Corps didn't do these mods when WWII broke out? Would've been (I think) an excellent way to modify Springfields into semi-auto rifles to serve alongside the Garand and M1 Carbine.
It needs a shoestring and grenade ring to fire it and it was a full auto.The shoestring was removed to convert Garand I think a couple years later
Intriguing. Looks like an intelligent attempt to make an M1 Garand and M14 at the same time.
One of the less kludgy attempts at a bolt-to-semiauto conversion. The only problem is needing special ammo due to primer activation. Actually an aesthetically pleasing rifle.
You mentioned that if you installed that piece the wrong way around, that sear would be in the wrong place making it so you couldn't fire the gun. Wouldn't it actually potentially make the gun blow through the whole magazine uncontrollably, if the bolt was allowed to slam forward quickly enough when first loaded?
Hard to say without actually trying it.
Someone please answer this question, I have it too.
I think Ian would be the most qualified individual to answer that here. His answer will probably be the closest you get.
+The Nihilist we couldn't without actually doing it, which could destroy the gun.
Great observation. I think since it wouldn't stay cocked for the first shot to be fired normally, it would be more of an intensional setup and letting the bolt/charging handle slam forward as an open bolt submachine gun. I think a demonstration should be arranged🍻
Would this be considered a delayed blowback? I doubt primer setback would give enough energy to cycle the gun, probably just enough to unlock the bolt. Once the bolt is unlocked by the primer setback, residual pressure in the chamber would force the case back and cycle the action. Also, do you believe John Garrand had a hand in this design? I know he initially worked with primer actuation when he went to work at Springfield.
Very interesting one you have today. The action is quite intricate and (to me) kind of unique.
Gas trap makes more sense to me, but I know that has problems too
I love the way the bolt explodes parts when you take it out only US Ordinance Flaming bomb
I love the shape of this gun. It's so badass, manly, and bulky!!!
885 - 1 like / dislike ratio... damn near unheard of. Congrats on such a great channel!
I look at these experimental designs around ww1 and ww2, how armies were trying to get a better gun. But then i look back at muzzle loaders, and how there were breach loader and break action designs that were an improvement. But Militarys didn't really push for them. And it makes we wonder was it just a matter of the tactics and strategies of the time. Like what you saw happen to various designs throughout history or was it something else.
Like Ian said, cost. Revolvers, breech loaders, break actions, and even magazine rifles were available for purchase in the 17th century provided you were a wealthy noble acquainted to a genius gunsmith. The military had to wait until someone came up with a cheaper design that can be manufactured by Joe the machinist and his friends in the factory.
The other reason was reliability. Nobs rarely had to use their fancy arms in harsh conditions, so they could live with lower reliability. A military can't, and since reliability and safety were pretty much the same thing for early firearms (whose main failure mode was to blow up in your face) materials science had to catch up first. Ferdinand Mannlicher designed gas-actuated automatic rifles in the 1880s but couldn't produce them because the materials to make them safe to operate only came about in the 1900s.
I think many factors are involved, most of which have been mentioned by Ian in his videos. As opposed to most sporting use, military guns are used in life or death situations. Armies (and I mean infantry) are inherently conservative and would rather let "other entities" try out new stuff before they get involved. As an example we all know: The Air Force was the prime mover in choosing the AR15/M16 as the new US military rifle over opposition from the Army. There's also "the NIH principle"🍻
"the NIH principle"?
+Bruce E Sorry: "Not Invented Here".
this is like a combination of primer actuation and 'headspace operated'
That trigger looks like a FCG converted Izhmash Saiga, before swapping out the original buttstock and installing a pistol grip.
It would be interesting to see what was different about the ammo to allow primer actuation.
Pretty wild engeneering! I like it.
Ian. I LOVE YOUR WORK! Just an observation, however - you could probably use a magnet of magnetic bowl to keep screws from going here, there and everywhere. I had the same happed when I was younger with my .45.
The design looks like it could work if a pistol grip was added in that empty spot between the wrist of the stock and the trigger guard. At least from a shooter's perspective. I'd like to know more about the designer and what their intent was in making it like that. It looks like an elegant, if flawed, design to me though.
Isn't it more like hesitation locked system? When fired, the cartridge case would move backwards (the bolt face being spring loaded) and cause the rear of the bolt face (the sleeve over the firing pin) to push the cylindrical piece holding the firing pin backwards. The force exerted on the base of the case (and transferred to the bolt face) would be much greater than that on the primer (same pressure but much greater surface area) and that would be where the majority of the energy operating the action comes from.
If the push on the firing pin by the primer was what starts the rearward movement of the action, by the time the bolt face starts moving backward (which would be delayed by the amount of time it takes for the chamber pressure to drop enough to let the case move backwards freely), it would have nothing to push on - the "cylindrical firing pin holder" would be long gone on it's way to unlock the action.
Also, the primer has nowhere to go when being pushed back - there's no "pocket" on the bolt face to let it set back - it's flush with the bolt face and can only push on it, just like the rest of the case head.
The peak force on the 30-06 primer is really quite remarkable (more than a ton!), but without some special provisions (like the aforementioned "pocket") only a tiny fraction of it get's transferred to a typical firing pin (the one in the video looks quite regular-sized). Otherwise wouldn't it cause serious problems in normal striker-fired bolt-action rifles?
impractical awkward and it is a Rube Goldberg semiautomatic rifle but it is still awesome
I actually think that is isnt primar activated and that it actually is the hole crtrige that moves a bit in the chamber and pushes on the bolthead.
Primar activated guns normaly have a part in the bolt head that moves and not the whole bolt head. Like the garand rifle where in the middle of the bolthead is a part that is the same size as the primar. And case activated guns are easier then primar activated guns I think.
But this is just a theory of mine, the gun had to be tested to be sure.
Btw awesome video, I love these forgotten weopen designs.
And sorry for my bad english I am from germany
I'm amazed someone looked at a cartridge discharging, and thought the best way to get energy out of it to cycle the action was through the primer. So strange!
My remington mosin has a barrel band front sight just like the one on this rifle.
Not the worst conversion we’ve seen…. Actually idea wide it may be one of the best…… even the bad grip can be fixed with a pistol grip…. It just has some small fragile parts….. but given more time they could be beefed up….
Is it even possible to reach the trigger with a proper grip?
No.
+Forgotten Weapons Unless you index finger is 10 inches long :)
Forgotten Weapons the perfect gun for ET!
features in BF1 under m1903 experimental i believe
After years of thought I'm still not convinced that it's primer activated but think that it is delayed blowback.
among other things, on thing i don't get about this gun is that the stock was made special for the receiver, and yet, they still put the handle so far back. Everything else about the gun is so clever, but for some reason, its like someone who didn't realize what a trigger was made the stock, not thinking that you were ever suppose to use the trigger.
the sad thing is procurement for replacement small arms would be a zero cost game if it wasn't for moronic US laws. they could just sell all the old M249 SAWS to civilians (who would gladly gobble them up at military cost) and upgrade to the new lightweight design (s), same for the 240 and any number of other ex military guns (I remember a few years back they had a warehouse full of grease guns I believe they destroyed when they could have easily sold them for thousands of dollars each if not for stupid laws).
so we the citizen/subject get screwed twice. we pay for it initially then we are told we can't be trusted with the stuff so we pay to store or destroy it and pay again for its replacement.
Yeah but they would have hundreds of thousands civilians armed with last(or one before) gen military equipment and that makes just too many people too much nervous. :-D
I think you're overestimating the amount of interest in the civilian market for clapped-out old M249's. Nowhere near a "zero cost game".
Мейсу Семпай you clearly don't live here. look up the CMP. people happily pay 1000$+ for old M1 garands and carbines. then look up Knob Creek. people pay 15,000$+ for 70 year old grease guns that the government cost was 20$. No the appetite for military arms is still quite strong and they would sell like hotcakes even at full price (if that was the only source for them, obviously if you could also buy a new one from FN at the same price they would have to be lower priced).
Then you have real idiot level stuff like the few hundred thousand M3 grease guns that the government had in storage for decades. Rather then sell them to the public for huge sums of money they just destroyed them all. Well after they fought off all the groups begging them not to and the various senators and Congressman doing the same. Why would they need to sell anything to the public anyway? it's not like they can't just steal any money they need right from you anyway.
bp968
1. Old M1 Garands are just that - old. It's got vintage appeal and collectibility behind it. A 20-year old M249 that's seen more dusty shitholes than a Willys Jeep is of interest to almost nobody, especially if the government decides to sell off 20k of them at once. Lrn2markets
2. You keep comparing WW2 vintage weapons to modern guns and you seem to think the comparison is apt. You seriously can't think of a reason weapons from WW2 could go for a high price at auction?
3. Again, if you have a "few hundred thousand" units of something flood into a market that previously had nearly nothing, you cannot expect people to continue buying those units at previous pre-supply-glut costs. To assume you could is fucking idiotic. They would have dumped those guns onto the market and prices would have fallen through the floor and then collectors who spent $15k on their guns would be left with a hunk of metal that anyone can buy for $50.
4. The government can't just repeal the NFA and other pieces of legislature that would prohibit them from making such a sale legal. They certainly aren't going to do it because it will save them a couple million dollars, because that's pocket money to the government and they could give a shit less.
Мейсу Семпай Мейсу Семпай 2: modern "replicas" of the Garand sell for just as much as all but a select few of the originals. same for M1 carbines. demand for full auto weapons far outstrips supply, thus the bizarre world of 25,000$ strips of metal with a number engraved on it.
3: of course they wouldn't stay at the same price, but since a pre may 86 m249 runs 250k+ there is quite a bit of room for the price to move.
4: of course the government can repeal the nfa, that's what government's do, pass and end laws. is it likely? Probably not, people are stupid and fear nonsense.
Bro the creator of the gun really said "ima make the trigger 3 miles away from the grip"
Given the placement of the sear it could be moved farther down the tail moving the trigger so you could properly grip the rifle when firing but I would prefer a pistol grip.
Ironically it still would've worked with out the primer actuator part of action, just the spring loaded bolt face just like made famous by the Bennelli shotgun action would've been sufficient for the action to work. The primer actuation is actually superfluous to that action.
Already semi i know but baretta managed this with the Italian BM59 developed quickly and cheaply from the M1 Garand as compared to the massively costly US M14 which was a new platform based on the M1 principle.
Im just imagining how crazy m4's are going to look when they get hacked into plasma rifles or something. We never learn.
been wondering for years now if there was a way to actuate the system with the primer and i finally got my answer! ty!
They couldda fixed that awkward trigger-position with a simple pistol-grip add-on... *don't know if it wouldda helped the primer-actuated system survive any longer though...
Oh, you have a 25 round mag Air Force 1903? Hold my beer
This conversion might have worked if the Benelli inertia lock had been invented earlier. A lot of similiarities with the action.
That style of action was implemented before WWI in the Sjogren rifle and shotgun.
Now that's neat.
This rifle remembers me a litte bit the M1903 experimental from Battlefield 1.
I really like how the italians went for a recoil operated gun who only required 2 springs and a modified bolt face (carcano terni) before WWI, the brits went for a complex but rather cheap gas operated system (smle howell) during WWI, and then there's this...
what a crazy action that is so weird