Thankyou for sharing your experiences, it is very interesting to me having grown up in the LDS church and now learning the real history of the church. My bishop father told me that if I persued further education I was not coming home again… I chose to keep learning and growing.
22:22 Thank you, Addie, for bringing up “Educated” by Tara Westover! I was gifted a copy by my Unitarian Universalist small group leaders after I shared some of my life narrative with the group. It’s incredibly empowering to read Tara Westover’s story. One of my favorite quotes from the book is: “We are, all of us, more complicated than the roles we are assigned in the stories other people tell. This is especially true in families.” (Page 334 of the hard bound edition) I find this channel remarkable because Sam and Melissa give people a chance to tell their own stories with nuance and complexity without asking guests to be a character in someone else’s telling of a story.
On the Mirriam Webster website, i found the following excerpt: “Gift as a verb has a 400-year history of use and means “to present someone with a gift.” Some feel strongly that give is the correct word, but gift-as-a-verb is an acceptable and efficient alternative. Since the 1990s the word has surged in popularity, perhaps in part because of a well-known Seinfeld episode concerning ‘regifting’ and ‘degifting.’ “ I’ve never seen that show, but I have heard of ‘regifting.’ I wonder if there are certain regions where it is more popular and less popular as a word choice. I find it fascinating, especially since my partner studied linguistics. We have chats about things like this sometimes because we grew up in different regions of the country. Perhaps the way I used the term is more popular in certain geographical regions or by specific demographics than others. I’m incredibly curious now! Thank you for questioning something I hadn’t considered. I enjoy learning about things like this. 🙂 I’ve been using the term in phrases like for many years as a way to honor the origin of something and the intention behind it. It seems more personal to say ‘gifted it to me’ instead of ‘gave it to me.’ The latter feels transactional and devoid of emotion to me, but I appreciate knowing that it might not be universally comfortable to everyone. I found an entire article about how the way I used it bothers people. Megan Garber wrote an article on December 12th of 2014 under the culture section of The Atlantic titled ‘Gift is Not a Verb,’ which speaks about word aversion. You are not alone if using it as a verb sounds awkward to you!
@@mortychops Thank you got the kind words! I think contributing to dialogues is an important freedom to exercise and I do my best be be as thorough and nonjudgmental as possible. In a world where social media interactions can be surface level, I often try for authentic responses that start conversations in non-divisive ways. (Edited 1/10/23 for clarity)
Hey girl! I totally stumbled on this. One day I'll be in a place to share my story, but I'm cheering you (and others) on until then. As far as the history, succession didn't start with Rulon. The AUB traces their roots from John and Lorin Wooley and then.....a Barlow, maybe? Then Joseph Musser. The split with the FLDS comes from that point according to AUB history, and then Rulon comes from that new council. I think the 1930s was around when it became a cohesive group, but there was still a lot of mixing in the church for a good while.
Re AUB endowments: I’ve been listening to the Polyganometry podcast, which is a guy who grew up AUB interviewing his family members. One of his grandfathers was a convert who was essentially recruited by AUB leadership because he had been a LDS temple worker. They were specifically trying to get folks who knew the prayers, scripts, etc. by heart from repetition because they were missing portions of it and wanted to get it back in shape. Until that time (1970s) many AUB had been also attending LDS awards so they could access the temples.
AUB claims 'prophet' line JS, BY, JT, WW, LS, JFS, all LDS. Then it jumps to John Woolley, Lorin Woolley, J.Leslie Broadbent, John y Barlow, Joseph White Musser, Rulon C Allred. The two groups AUB and what is now referred to as FLDS were one group until the split isn the 1950's. From Rulon it went to his brother, Owen A Allred then to Lamoine Jenson, Lynn Thompson and now DW.
The AUB temple endowments was started in 1981/82. Before that, group members went to the LDS Ward and temples to aquire endowments. Yes, even living in polygamy. Unbeknownst to the LDS Church. Many lied about their status to get into the temples to receive their ordinance work.
The temple endowment script was stolen from a temple in Washington by a group member who was an ordinance worker during his previous LDS Church membership. That is how AUB got the endowment script.
Catholics do the sharing cup for the wine too. I always skipped that part unless my mom did it first. In my child brain she wiped all the germs away of the previous strangers. 😅
We all shared in the Lutheran church I went to as well. The pastor would wipe the exterior after each person and rotate the cup as well. I hoped the alcohol in the wine was killing the germs inside the rim of the cup😅
What a great interview! I studied the Lebanon’s a decade ago and read all the books I could about them and from the women who had been involved. It’s definitely a rabbit hole!
Thanks to Sam and Melissa for doing these videos because as a person of a different religion I have had a greater understanding of the church that you both brought up in. As a kid brought up in England I did not know anything about it until I did a topic in A-level sociology where my teacher showed us a documentary about it. Since then I have watch a lot of shows/channels because it has fascinate me.
I’m always so interested in the beginning of the LDS and the off shoots AUB. My great Uncle married my great Aunt who was Mormon and he converted. What I was shocked to learn was that on my paternal side my 2 great Grandmother Mary Ella Allred Collier was the daughter of Wilson Monroe Allred who had three wives. When I started looking into my ancestry on Ancestry. Come they used to have message boards. Inset on looking to find out more about Ella’s family. On this message board was a statement that her father Monroe left his first wife and children in Texas because Mary Jennings Allred won’t be baptized into the church. He joyed his father William Hackley Allred and grandfather James Allred to pioneer Utah with his second Elizabeth and third wives Barbara. Once I put this information on to my ancestry tree I had all kinds of cousins reaching out. What they were told is Monroe’s first wife died, then he married again and had a second wife. All not true. He abandoned his first family in Texas wife and five children to go be a pioneer and live polygamy in Utah. Thank goodness my second great grandfather and his brothers married two of the sisters and my three times great Uncle cared for his MIL Mary Jennings Allred. When I hear the name Allred I always wonder if I’m related to any of the these people.
If I close my eyes while Addi is talking, I picture Christine Brown or her daughter Mykelti talking. They have a very similar tone. I was addicted to TLC as a child 😆
I’m a descendant of Rulon Allred. One of his wives was Leona Jeffs. What I understand is that after he died she ended up moving to short creek with her children and all of the Allreds in the FLDS are her descendants.
I’m a catholic living in the UK. Different churches in where I am living have different ideas of how to take the a Sacrament of the Eucharist. My primary school was associated with a church that had a barrier between the alter and the people who attended the mass. The church that I was baptised into (this is the first sacrament that catholics believe and it supposed to take original sin away as catholics believe that original sin cam from Adam and Eve when they sinned) you can have the communion 2 ways hands and mouth. This was where I did my first holy communion in my white dress that had a sash with a flower on the front from a department store from Peter Jones (a department store in the UK) Does not have a barrier and we line up to take the wine and the host from Eucharistic minister. The minister that has the wine turn the cup and wipe the cup so there is no germs. For anyone that is not catholic or Christian who needs any additional info on Catholicism and the reformation to the Church of England, Protestantism. I will be happy to explain in more detail about the religion.
Hey Cousin! Love the podcast. I'm a descendant of Arthur Benjamin Clark. I'm guessing we are related somehow with Rulon Allred being my grandmother's first cousin....
Wow, this was a great interview & nice to see that Addi had a good experience growing up & (though I don't believe in or support the polygamist lifestyle), this group seems to be doing it close to how it was intended to be. Yeah, the book "Educated" is a great, wild story book. Glad I read it. The author seems to have teetered at going off the rails though in her freedom years but, growing up as she did, I could see why.
I would also recommend the book AM recommended too. I really enjoyed it Jane Westover - book title Educated (2018) "debuted at No. 1 on The New York Times bestseller list"
8:03 I feel like it’s important to just mention that the cultural ‘trend’ of forms of consensual non-monogamy like throuples, polycules, and and polyamory in general being in the media more does not mean that those people who choose such lifestyles don’t face marginalization. As a woman who was outed as polyamorous in federal court and in media, I think people who practice ethical forms of non-monogamy that are negotiated between all parties involved with transparency are often still shamed and socially looked down upon / misunderstood. Though I grew up in a monogamous household, I have a tough relationship with my family of origin for many reasons. I feel much safer and more supported by my family of choice, a small interconnected polycule full of the kindness and warmth my family of origin was lacking. I take no offense to the mention of a ‘new wave of let’s add a couple of extra people,’ but would strongly recommend considering intentional, ethical polyamory not as a random flippant trend, but as a relational option. Poly fidelity and other forms of negotiated non-monogamous relationship structures have been around since ancient civilizations in various configurations. Those of us who find that such arrangements are more equitable and comfortable for themselves and their loved ones are not just adding people to our relationships because it’s ‘cool,’ in fact, I know many people who have lost a lot of friends and family or have had to keep their relationship dynamics closeted to avoid the stigmatization and shaming that often comes with being open about these matters. I hope this feedback is helpful and doesn’t come across as preachy or rude. I just wanted to lend my voice as someone who has faced cruelty due to not being monogamous. Thank you, Sam and Melissa, for treating people with respect and dignity no matter what their family or community looks like. Please continue to consider the diversity of communities and stories related to what you discuss. Best wishes! (Edited for clarity, 11/30/22)
I was exploring alternative relationship configurations back in the 80s. I met a man who was a minister and active in open or multiple relationships. He said he learned to be up front about this when applying for jobs. If he kept it a secret, he could be 'outed' and fired, but if he was up-front about it, it could keep him from getting a job but couldnt result in a surprise firing later on Once i had kids, i no longer had the energy for more than one adult relationship
@@caraziegel7652 There’s nothing wrong with monogamy as a relationship configuration. In fact, I think it works incredibly well for a lot of people. Its just not my choice. I believe that every person should have the freedom to find what works for them in their relationships and in their life without cultural shaming and also without pressure to have a configuration that is unsustainable or uncomfortable for them, as long as there is enthusiastic consent and every person’s humanity is recognized. And as long as nobody is harmed physically or emotionally. Just like people should have the freedom to practice their faith as long as they get a choice and have a chance to choose it. It breaks my heart when I hear about people feeling like freedoms that should be choices are compulsory, expected, or inflicted upon people. It frustrates me when people who do things a certain way think they are better than those who choose something else. I feel like everyone deserves a chance to choose a path that best suits them.
@@kannakanina6552 My point is that by trying to keep it secret, you ENCOURAGE the people who think it is shameful. By being open about it those people will be unlikely to be brave enough to insult you to your face
@@caraziegel7652 That may be true, but not always possible or safe in all situations. I didn’t have the choice to not be publicly open about it. That choice was taken from me when I was outed as a federal witness in court. It was blasted in media. People said awful things to my face and just about every other way possible. Just as it is with other marginalized identities, sometimes being outed can cause homelessness if someone’s support system, family of origin, and support system rejects them. I imagine I could be an example of the exception, but it’s not always a matter of pride or embarrassment to be outed, some people’s lives are shattered by it. That is why I try to use my voice to encourage others to be more humane and tolerant.
Hi Sam and Melissa, I pm on Instagram but I don't know if you got it. I read an article about how the FLDS put on a play where they changed the sound of music into a story about polygamy. Did you see that play? Were you in it, lol :)
My maiden last name was Allred- I’ve actually never heard or met anyone else with that last name until I started learning about the LDS, FLDS, etc. it makes me wonder if I’m related to any of these groups or people
I'm surprised you guys hadn't heard of Ervil LeBaron. His followers were killing people for blood atonement even after Ervil died in prison. It's a fascinating story! Maybe you guys can interview Anna LeBaron, Ervil's daughter. She wrote a fascinating book called "The Polygamist's Daughter." I've seen her do interviews before.
I know Melissa has on a few videos been very respectful with her words not to reveal "sacred" Mormon practices. This always amuses me as a cult survivor/atheist because I know now that those things aren't sacred, they are probably stupid (secret handshake, whatever was revealed to you by the prophet in secret, etc.) but I know it's hard to shake off so many years of brainwashing. I have always admired Melissa's ability to be respectful to the people in her life who still believe. Me, I was a bull in a china shop when I deconverted... I wanted to spread my newfound truth to them and wake them up from their brainwashed thinking. So I would CONSTANTLY be a heretic and say things out loud that I wasn't supposed to, in an effort to demystify them and take away the pretend power that they had over people.
Yes, it is not seen as optional at all. Some don’t believe you should ever take them off unless you’re showering. I knew people who looked down on those who took them off to wear swimsuits and thought that full body wet suits were the way to go.
Story of the LeBaron family: the Church of the Firstborn… Once upon a time there was a man named Alma Dayer LeBaron Sr. who was the grandson of Joseph Smith’s private secretary Benjamin F. Johnson. Alma believed that the voices in his head were messages from God. He was excommunicated from the LDS church for practicing polygamy and moved to Mexico. Eventually he bought a ranch which became Colonia LeBaron Alma. He had three notable sons: Ervil, Joel, and Verlan. Both Ervil and Joel served as LDS missionaries in southern Mexico for two years until they were excommunicated for preaching about plural marriage. Eventually, on a trip to Salt Lake City, they discovered Rulon Allred’s Mormon fundamentalist church the “Apostolic United Brethren”. They were members for about ten years. In 1951, Alma died and he passed leadership of the Colonia LeBaron Alma community to his son Joel who incorporated the community as the Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times in Salt Lake City. Joel named his brother Ervil as his second in command and the group began to attract new members. A rift was driven between Ervil and Joel when a family his childhood best friend returned to Colonia LeBaron Alma to discover that his wife had divorced him and married Ervil. The friend immediately complained to Joel who declared that, from now on, a woman had to wait six months after a divorce in order to remarry. Joel ended up buying a ranch in Baja California called Los Molinos and spent more time developing the community there; leaving Ervil in charge at Colonia LeBaron Alma. While at Colonia LeBaron Alma, Ervil began to become more autocratic, introducing corporal punishment and preaching a us-versus-them rhetoric. He incorporated his followers into a new church called “the Church of the First Born of the Lamb of God”. In 1972, Joel was assassinated by followers of Ervil (blood atonement). Ervil turned himself in to an Ensenada police station and was tried for his brother’s murder. However, he was released on a technicality; the assassins never appeared in court. Joel was succeeded by his brother Verlan as leader of the Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times after his assassination. Ervil would spend the next decade trying to kill him. Ervil's followers subsequently raided Los Molinos in an effort to kill Verlan-who was in Nicaragua-but the town was destroyed and two men were killed. Not wanting to wait for the Mexican authorities to change their mind about letting him go, Ervil headed north with his wives and children to establish cells in the United States. He wrote and visited many polygamist leaders, threatening their lives if they did not switch their allegiance to the Church of the Lamb of God or tithe accordingly. He went around killing people (usually through proxy) who attempted to leave him or threaten to go to the police about his actions like his teenage daughter Rebecca. But he hadn’t forgotten about his brother Verlan. In 1977, Ervil though he could flush Verlan out of hiding if he killed the leader of the Apostolic United Brethren, Rulon C. Allred. The idea being that Rulon’s funeral would be to big of an event for Verlan to miss. So he dispatched his 18-year-old wife Rena Chynoweth and his stepdaughter Ramona Marston to Salt Lake to murder Rulon. Once the act was done, he dispatched three of Ervil's other followers, to attended the funeral with orders to kill Verlan and anyone else who got in their way. They aborted their mission when they realized that police were stationed all around the funeral area to protect the mourners. Ervil was captured in Mexico and tried and convicted in the United States for planning Allred's murder. Rena Chynoweth and Ramona Marston were acquitted by a jury for their role in the murder. While incarcerated in Utah, Ervil continued to write testaments for his followers. One of these, the Book of New Covenants, which contained a list of 50 people that Ervil marked for blood atonement. Furthermore, the book a list of who should succeed Ervil as leader of the cult. Ervil died in prison in 1981. His brother Verlan died in a car crash in Mexico City the same day. 25 people are estimated to have been killed as a result of Evril’s prison-cell orders. To this day, many of Evril’s family members and other ex-members of the group remain in hiding for fear of retribution from LeBaron's remaining followers.
I only know about AUB as there is a UA-cam channel called Distinctive Books that makes content for kids and they are members of the one from Rocky Ridge. I don't believe in their beliefs but they seem like a lovely happy family
LDS here, and I just happen to be a granddaughter of Rulon Allred. No, the mainline LDS church does not believe that polygamy will be practiced in heaven. There is no doctrine to support this teaching....not sure where others come up with this myth.
When Brigham Young, governor of Utah Territory, had some dignitaries & their wives visit from Washington DC, to check things out in the west, they had a formal dinner & without any shame, Brigham introduced the group to 3 or 4 of his wives, maybe thinking that with how well dressed & dignified the wives were, the group would be impressed. Oh, they were sooooo impressed that they high tailed it out of Utah Territory the next day I think, to hurry back & tell the US congress to never allow Utah to get statehood !! Needless to say the wine & dine evening was a big flop.
I just can't believe that knowing what is known about inherited health issues...people are not worried about marrying even a 2nd cousin...or worried about the fact producing special needs children increases with a mans age...
Just to share a bit about temples and changes from an LDS perspective. The endowment ceremony is a time in the temple when we learn sacred teachings and make covenants with God. We believe these covenants and teachings fuller bind us to Christ and therefore give us spiritual strength throughout our lives. But there is a difference between the actual endowment (covenants and teachings) and the presentation of the endowment (which is the symbolic ceremony that is used to help us understand the endowment). Joseph Smith restored the endowment and that has not changed. But the way it is presented can change as symbols lose their meaning over time as society changes. Jesus taught wonderful teachings through parables or symbolic stories. The parables he used in biblical times made complete sense to the people at that time. But I know I have a hard time understanding! I am sure if Jesus were teaching people today He would use very different parables to demonstrate His lessons. But the lessons themselves would not change.
In the Catholic Church, they do something like this for children, during the bronze duke of Edinburgh award I taught the kids in my parish about the teachings in the Bible. In a way that children understand When we do the sacrament of holy communion, confirmation and the sacrament of reconciliation we have lessons and booklets to help to understand the sacrament in more detail . To the point that you made out about the parables I completely agree that he would do different examples today.
The endowment session has been changed many times as have the garment styles. Most of the temple endowment ceremony is taken from the Masonic ceremony as Joseph had learned it prior to building of the Kirkland Temple. I learned this 😢information by reading Gospel Topics Essays from the Church’s’ internet site. information
@@patricianoel7782like I said changes to the ceremony should not matter. Or changes to the garments. The meaning behind them is what is important. I wear garments today for the same purpose as they did in the beginning. It doesn't matter that the physical design has changed to fit better with what we wear today. And the mason thing goes with that idea too. It was familiar to Joseph and the people involved. I don't see why God wouldn't use rituals they were familiar with to help them understand more fully. Are you also LDS? Or just reading the essays out of curiosity?
It's nice she had a good experience but most AUB families who share talk about forced marriages, marrying cousins & step children, keeping bloodlines pure, & violence.
I think that's the Kingston Group. The leader is married to his own half sisters and like 2 of his nieces. Kingstons are all about keeping the blood pure. When I hear that it reminds me of Harry Potter 😬
AUB line of authority Joseph smith Brigham young John Taylor Wilford woodruff Lorenzo Snow Joseph F Smith John W Wooly Lorie C Woolley J Leslie Broadbent John Y Barlow Joseph w. Musser Rulon c Allred Owen A Allred J Lamoine Jenson Lynn Thompson Dave Watson
Addie actually knows very little history of the AUB so take it with a grain of salt. She also has no idea how the leadership is set up. Or much at all about her faith accept growing up in a family with multiple wives.
I love how Sam adds “Yes we do” after Melissa says you have two beautiful children!
Ditto!
It’s the best part❤ so sweet!
Yes, it's so wholesome 😭
Thankyou for sharing your experiences, it is very interesting to me having grown up in the LDS church and now learning the real history of the church.
My bishop father told me that if I persued further education I was not coming home again… I chose to keep learning and growing.
good for you! that's a really hard choice to make and it's super cool that you chose what was best for you~
22:22 Thank you, Addie, for bringing up “Educated” by Tara Westover! I was gifted a copy by my Unitarian Universalist small group leaders after I shared some of my life narrative with the group. It’s incredibly empowering to read Tara Westover’s story.
One of my favorite quotes from the book is:
“We are, all of us, more complicated than the roles we are assigned in the stories other people tell. This is especially true in families.” (Page 334 of the hard bound edition)
I find this channel remarkable because Sam and Melissa give people a chance to tell their own stories with nuance and complexity without asking guests to be a character in someone else’s telling of a story.
When did “gift” become a verb?
On the Mirriam Webster website, i found the following excerpt:
“Gift as a verb has a 400-year history of use and means “to present someone with a gift.” Some feel strongly that give is the correct word, but gift-as-a-verb is an acceptable and efficient alternative. Since the 1990s the word has surged in popularity, perhaps in part because of a well-known Seinfeld episode concerning ‘regifting’ and ‘degifting.’ “
I’ve never seen that show, but I have heard of ‘regifting.’ I wonder if there are certain regions where it is more popular and less popular as a word choice. I find it fascinating, especially since my partner studied linguistics. We have chats about things like this sometimes because we grew up in different regions of the country.
Perhaps the way I used the term is more popular in certain geographical regions or by specific demographics than others. I’m incredibly curious now! Thank you for questioning something I hadn’t considered. I enjoy learning about things like this. 🙂
I’ve been using the term in phrases like for many years as a way to honor the origin of something and the intention behind it. It seems more personal to say ‘gifted it to me’ instead of ‘gave it to me.’ The latter feels transactional and devoid of emotion to me, but I appreciate knowing that it might not be universally comfortable to everyone. I found an entire article about how the way I used it bothers people. Megan Garber wrote an article on December 12th of 2014 under the culture section of The Atlantic titled ‘Gift is Not a Verb,’ which speaks about word aversion. You are not alone if using it as a verb sounds awkward to you!
@@kannakanina6552 Your reply is the best I've ever seen.
@@mortychops Thank you got the kind words! I think contributing to dialogues is an important freedom
to exercise and I do my best be be as thorough and nonjudgmental as possible. In a world where social media interactions can be surface level, I often try for authentic responses that start conversations in non-divisive ways. (Edited 1/10/23 for clarity)
Hey girl! I totally stumbled on this. One day I'll be in a place to share my story, but I'm cheering you (and others) on until then.
As far as the history, succession didn't start with Rulon. The AUB traces their roots from John and Lorin Wooley and then.....a Barlow, maybe? Then Joseph Musser. The split with the FLDS comes from that point according to AUB history, and then Rulon comes from that new council. I think the 1930s was around when it became a cohesive group, but there was still a lot of mixing in the church for a good while.
Thank you for sharing this!!
Re AUB endowments: I’ve been listening to the Polyganometry podcast, which is a guy who grew up AUB interviewing his family members. One of his grandfathers was a convert who was essentially recruited by AUB leadership because he had been a LDS temple worker. They were specifically trying to get folks who knew the prayers, scripts, etc. by heart from repetition because they were missing portions of it and wanted to get it back in shape. Until that time (1970s) many AUB had been also attending LDS awards so they could access the temples.
So interesting!
AUB claims 'prophet' line
JS, BY, JT, WW, LS, JFS, all LDS. Then it jumps to John Woolley, Lorin Woolley, J.Leslie Broadbent, John y Barlow, Joseph White Musser, Rulon C Allred. The two groups AUB and what is now referred to as FLDS were one group until the split isn the 1950's. From Rulon it went to his brother, Owen A Allred then to Lamoine Jenson, Lynn Thompson and now DW.
The AUB temple endowments was started in 1981/82. Before that, group members went to the LDS Ward and temples to aquire endowments. Yes, even living in polygamy. Unbeknownst to the LDS Church. Many lied about their status to get into the temples to receive their ordinance work.
The temple endowment script was stolen from a temple in Washington by a group member who was an ordinance worker during his previous LDS Church membership. That is how AUB got the endowment script.
My foster brother and father had connections with the AUB, although they were still in LDS Church, but didn't agree with the changes.
Catholics do the sharing cup for the wine too. I always skipped that part unless my mom did it first. In my child brain she wiped all the germs away of the previous strangers. 😅
We all shared in the Lutheran church I went to as well. The pastor would wipe the exterior after each person and rotate the cup as well. I hoped the alcohol in the wine was killing the germs inside the rim of the cup😅
What a great interview! I studied the Lebanon’s a decade ago and read all the books I could about them and from the women who had been involved. It’s definitely a rabbit hole!
Have you listened to the podcast Deliver Us From Ervil? It's firsthand accounts of the Lebarons.
Thanks to Sam and Melissa for doing these videos because as a person of a different religion I have had a greater understanding of the church that you both brought up in. As a kid brought up in England I did not know anything about it until I did a topic in A-level sociology where my teacher showed us a documentary about it. Since then I have watch a lot of shows/channels because it has fascinate me.
Sam and Melissa, can you reach out to Willy Jessop and interview him. I would love to hear his story from his perspective.
We will see what we can do!
You two just don't stop making great content! Thank you thank you thank you!!!
Thank you so much!
can’t wait to watch! thank in advance for sharing your story addi!!
I can’t wait for part two. This is so fascinating to learn about the different groups. Thank you Sam and Melissa for your great work!!!!
Thank you so much!
Christine was an Allred. Rulon was her grandfather. Christine’s mom was a Lebaron by birth Ervil was her uncle; making him Christine’s great uncle
Made me chuckle how the cup sharing issue triggered Sam 😂🤭
I’m always so interested in the beginning of the LDS and the off shoots AUB. My great Uncle married my great Aunt who was Mormon and he converted. What I was shocked to learn was that on my paternal side my 2 great Grandmother Mary Ella Allred Collier was the daughter of Wilson Monroe Allred who had three wives. When I started looking into my ancestry on Ancestry. Come they used to have message boards. Inset on looking to find out more about Ella’s family. On this message board was a statement that her father Monroe left his first wife and children in Texas because Mary Jennings Allred won’t be baptized into the church. He joyed his father William Hackley Allred and grandfather James Allred to pioneer Utah with his second Elizabeth and third wives Barbara. Once I put this information on to my ancestry tree I had all kinds of cousins reaching out. What they were told is Monroe’s first wife died, then he married again and had a second wife. All not true. He abandoned his first family in Texas wife and five children to go be a pioneer and live polygamy in Utah. Thank goodness my second great grandfather and his brothers married two of the sisters and my three times great Uncle cared for his MIL Mary Jennings Allred. When I hear the name Allred I always wonder if I’m related to any of the these people.
Probably a distantly to many of them.
If I close my eyes while Addi is talking, I picture Christine Brown or her daughter Mykelti talking. They have a very similar tone. I was addicted to TLC as a child 😆
It’s that Utah polygamist accent haha
I’m a descendant of Rulon Allred. One of his wives was Leona Jeffs. What I understand is that after he died she ended up moving to short creek with her children and all of the Allreds in the FLDS are her descendants.
This was super interesting! Thank you so much for sharing all 3 of your experiences.
Read the books by Irene Spencer and Anna LeBaron to learn more about the connections with the Allred’s and LeBarons
Great episode!!! All y’all were so great.
Educated is an incredible book! 1000% recommend
I’m a catholic living in the UK. Different churches in where I am living have different ideas of how to take the a
Sacrament of the Eucharist. My primary school was associated with a church that had a barrier between the alter and the people who attended the mass. The church that I was baptised into (this is the first sacrament that catholics believe and it supposed to take original sin away as catholics believe that original sin cam from Adam and Eve when they sinned) you can have the communion 2 ways hands and mouth. This was where I did my first holy communion in my white dress that had a sash with a flower on the front from a department store from Peter Jones (a department store in the UK) Does not have a barrier and we line up to take the wine and the host from Eucharistic minister. The minister that has the wine turn the cup and wipe the cup so there is no germs. For anyone that is not catholic or Christian who needs any additional info on Catholicism and the reformation to the Church of England, Protestantism. I will be happy to explain in more detail about the religion.
Loving this interview so much!
Anna LeBaron has written a great book about her dad. It’s called “The Polygamist’s Daughter: A Memoir.”
Hey Cousin! Love the podcast. I'm a descendant of Arthur Benjamin Clark. I'm guessing we are related somehow with Rulon Allred being my grandmother's first cousin....
Wow, this was a great interview & nice to see that Addi had a good experience growing up & (though I don't believe in or support the polygamist lifestyle), this group seems to be doing it close to how it was intended to be.
Yeah, the book "Educated" is a great, wild story book. Glad I read it. The author seems to have teetered at going off the rails though in her freedom years but, growing up as she did, I could see why.
She cane from the same group that Lea Garcia came from she's also on UA-cam you should ask her about her family also.
Yasss, love Leah! I think her and Addi sound identical. If I close my eyes I can't tell who's talking most of the time. It's crazy!
@@rachaelkopp3792 yeah ik but so do most of the woman who came from the flds at least to me anyway
Thanks for the support! I appreciate it ❤
@@thetelestialtea your welcome I appreciate learning about cults and other things
Really nice interview.
This was really good… you should discuss the show Big love… it is my favourite show…. It has best writing
Sam so triggered by the cup and snotty noses 😂😂😂
I would also recommend the book AM recommended too. I really enjoyed it Jane Westover - book title Educated (2018) "debuted at No. 1 on The New York Times bestseller list"
8:03
I feel like it’s important to just mention that the cultural ‘trend’ of forms of consensual non-monogamy like throuples, polycules, and and polyamory in general being in the media more does not mean that those people who choose such lifestyles don’t face marginalization. As a woman who was outed as polyamorous in federal court and in media, I think people who practice ethical forms of non-monogamy that are negotiated between all parties involved with transparency are often still shamed and socially looked down upon / misunderstood.
Though I grew up in a monogamous household, I have a tough relationship with my family of origin for many reasons. I feel much safer and more supported by my family of choice, a small interconnected polycule full of the kindness and warmth my family of origin was lacking. I take no offense to the mention of a ‘new wave of let’s add a couple of extra people,’ but would strongly recommend considering intentional, ethical polyamory not as a random flippant trend, but as a relational option. Poly fidelity and other forms of negotiated non-monogamous relationship structures have been around since ancient civilizations in various configurations. Those of us who find that such arrangements are more equitable and comfortable for themselves and their loved ones are not just adding people to our relationships because it’s ‘cool,’ in fact, I know many people who have lost a lot of friends and family or have had to keep their relationship dynamics closeted to avoid the stigmatization and shaming that often comes with being open about these matters.
I hope this feedback is helpful and doesn’t come across as preachy or rude. I just wanted to lend my voice as someone who has faced cruelty due to not being monogamous. Thank you, Sam and Melissa, for treating people with respect and dignity no matter what their family or community looks like. Please continue to consider the diversity of communities and stories related to what you discuss.
Best wishes!
(Edited for clarity, 11/30/22)
I was exploring alternative relationship configurations back in the 80s. I met a man who was a minister and active in open or multiple relationships. He said he learned to be up front about this when applying for jobs. If he kept it a secret, he could be 'outed' and fired, but if he was up-front about it, it could keep him from getting a job but couldnt result in a surprise firing later on
Once i had kids, i no longer had the energy for more than one adult relationship
@@caraziegel7652 There’s nothing wrong with monogamy as a relationship configuration. In fact, I think it works incredibly well for a lot of people. Its just not my choice.
I believe that every person should have the freedom to find what works for them in their relationships and in their life without cultural shaming and also without pressure to have a configuration that is unsustainable or uncomfortable for them, as long as there is enthusiastic consent and every person’s humanity is recognized. And as long as nobody is harmed physically or emotionally. Just like people should have the freedom to practice their faith as long as they get a choice and have a chance to choose it.
It breaks my heart when I hear about people feeling like freedoms that should be choices are compulsory, expected, or inflicted upon people. It frustrates me when people who do things a certain way think they are better than those who choose something else. I feel like everyone deserves a chance to choose a path that best suits them.
@@kannakanina6552 My point is that by trying to keep it secret, you ENCOURAGE the people who think it is shameful. By being open about it those people will be unlikely to be brave enough to insult you to your face
@@caraziegel7652 That may be true, but not always possible or safe in all situations. I didn’t have the choice to not be publicly open about it. That choice was taken from me when I was outed as a federal witness in court. It was blasted in media. People said awful things to my face and just about every other way possible. Just as it is with other marginalized identities, sometimes being outed can cause homelessness if someone’s support system, family of origin, and support system rejects them. I imagine I could be an example of the exception, but it’s not always a matter of pride or embarrassment to be outed, some people’s lives are shattered by it. That is why I try to use my voice to encourage others to be more humane and tolerant.
Thank you so much for sharing this!
Hi Sam and Melissa, I pm on Instagram but I don't know if you got it. I read an article about how the FLDS put on a play where they changed the sound of music into a story about polygamy. Did you see that play? Were you in it, lol :)
Y’all are so wholesome. ❤
I love your wonderful family and channel
Thank you!
Super super interesting as always!
Thank you!
The more educated you are, the harder you are to control. That is a hard core truth.
Love your background!
Thank you!
There is a wonderful podcast called "Deliver Us From Ervil" that tells his story.. he had many people killed including his own daughter
My maiden last name was Allred- I’ve actually never heard or met anyone else with that last name until I started learning about the LDS, FLDS, etc. it makes me wonder if I’m related to any of these groups or people
find a grave is a great resource if ya want to look into that question
Love what y’all are doing! What is the purpose of protecting “sacred” things now that you no longer believe or practice flds and lds religions?
Lynn Thompson's birth name was Worth Kilgrow, my grandfather's name (Sam's great grandfather).
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Allred, LeBaron both huge names in the polygamy circles.
Of course, polygamy has a bunch of squares too.
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The creators of “Under the banner of Heaven” need to do another season on LaBaron killing Rulon Allred…. It would be so great! Hulu get with it! Lol
Lauren Of Hidden True Crimes did an interview of Anna LeBaron. It’s worth the watch. It is a 2 part video on their You Tube Channel.
Yes and read her book.
I'm surprised you guys hadn't heard of Ervil LeBaron. His followers were killing people for blood atonement even after Ervil died in prison. It's a fascinating story! Maybe you guys can interview Anna LeBaron, Ervil's daughter. She wrote a fascinating book called "The Polygamist's Daughter." I've seen her do interviews before.
Yup, I remember the FLDS was on high alert for a year, after LeBaron sent Leroy Johnson a letter demanding him to step down and let him lead.
Me too
We will have to reach out and see! That would be awesome!
@@GrowingUpinPolygamy It would be a great interview for sure!
I know Melissa has on a few videos been very respectful with her words not to reveal "sacred" Mormon practices. This always amuses me as a cult survivor/atheist because I know now that those things aren't sacred, they are probably stupid (secret handshake, whatever was revealed to you by the prophet in secret, etc.) but I know it's hard to shake off so many years of brainwashing. I have always admired Melissa's ability to be respectful to the people in her life who still believe. Me, I was a bull in a china shop when I deconverted... I wanted to spread my newfound truth to them and wake them up from their brainwashed thinking. So I would CONSTANTLY be a heretic and say things out loud that I wasn't supposed to, in an effort to demystify them and take away the pretend power that they had over people.
I am with her, I thought I had a great childhood, but I get that others don’t feel the same
Are you looked down on if you don’t wear garments in the AUB?
Yes, it is not seen as optional at all. Some don’t believe you should ever take them off unless you’re showering. I knew people who looked down on those who took them off to wear swimsuits and thought that full body wet suits were the way to go.
Story of the LeBaron family: the Church of the Firstborn…
Once upon a time there was a man named Alma Dayer LeBaron Sr. who was the grandson of Joseph Smith’s private secretary Benjamin F. Johnson. Alma believed that the voices in his head were messages from God. He was excommunicated from the LDS church for practicing polygamy and moved to Mexico. Eventually he bought a ranch which became Colonia LeBaron Alma.
He had three notable sons: Ervil, Joel, and Verlan. Both Ervil and Joel served as LDS missionaries in southern Mexico for two years until they were excommunicated for preaching about plural marriage. Eventually, on a trip to Salt Lake City, they discovered Rulon Allred’s Mormon fundamentalist church the “Apostolic United Brethren”. They were members for about ten years.
In 1951, Alma died and he passed leadership of the Colonia LeBaron Alma community to his son Joel who incorporated the community as the Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times in Salt Lake City. Joel named his brother Ervil as his second in command and the group began to attract new members.
A rift was driven between Ervil and Joel when a family his childhood best friend returned to Colonia LeBaron Alma to discover that his wife had divorced him and married Ervil. The friend immediately complained to Joel who declared that, from now on, a woman had to wait six months after a divorce in order to remarry.
Joel ended up buying a ranch in Baja California called Los Molinos and spent more time developing the community there; leaving Ervil in charge at Colonia LeBaron Alma.
While at Colonia LeBaron Alma, Ervil began to become more autocratic, introducing corporal punishment and preaching a us-versus-them rhetoric. He incorporated his followers into a new church called “the Church of the First Born of the Lamb of God”.
In 1972, Joel was assassinated by followers of Ervil (blood atonement). Ervil turned himself in to an Ensenada police station and was tried for his brother’s murder. However, he was released on a technicality; the assassins never appeared in court.
Joel was succeeded by his brother Verlan as leader of the Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times after his assassination. Ervil would spend the next decade trying to kill him. Ervil's followers subsequently raided Los Molinos in an effort to kill Verlan-who was in Nicaragua-but the town was destroyed and two men were killed.
Not wanting to wait for the Mexican authorities to change their mind about letting him go, Ervil headed north with his wives and children to establish cells in the United States. He wrote and visited many polygamist leaders, threatening their lives if they did not switch their allegiance to the Church of the Lamb of God or tithe accordingly.
He went around killing people (usually through proxy) who attempted to leave him or threaten to go to the police about his actions like his teenage daughter Rebecca. But he hadn’t forgotten about his brother Verlan.
In 1977, Ervil though he could flush Verlan out of hiding if he killed the leader of the Apostolic United Brethren, Rulon C. Allred. The idea being that Rulon’s funeral would be to big of an event for Verlan to miss. So he dispatched his 18-year-old wife Rena Chynoweth and his stepdaughter Ramona Marston to Salt Lake to murder Rulon. Once the act was done, he dispatched three of Ervil's other followers, to attended the funeral with orders to kill Verlan and anyone else who got in their way. They aborted their mission when they realized that police were stationed all around the funeral area to protect the mourners.
Ervil was captured in Mexico and tried and convicted in the United States for planning Allred's murder. Rena Chynoweth and Ramona Marston were acquitted by a jury for their role in the murder.
While incarcerated in Utah, Ervil continued to write testaments for his followers. One of these, the Book of New Covenants, which contained a list of 50 people that Ervil marked for blood atonement. Furthermore, the book a list of who should succeed Ervil as leader of the cult.
Ervil died in prison in 1981. His brother Verlan died in a car crash in Mexico City the same day.
25 people are estimated to have been killed as a result of Evril’s prison-cell orders. To this day, many of Evril’s family members and other ex-members of the group remain in hiding for fear of retribution from LeBaron's remaining followers.
Should you be interested in the LeBaron group, "Deliver us from Ervil" is an extremely well researched podcast about the group.
Literally what I was coming here to say! It was such a good podcast, even for someone who knows a lot about it, I learned so much!
You need to read "Under the Banner of Heaven" by Jon Krakow.
Thank you Addi.
I only know about AUB as there is a UA-cam channel called Distinctive Books that makes content for kids and they are members of the one from Rocky Ridge. I don't believe in their beliefs but they seem like a lovely happy family
How did it divide from Warren Jeffs and Kingstons, how were they put in charge
Does the mainline LDS believe polygamy will be practiced in heaven.? This question is for Melissa.
Well, speaking for... Oh, Me(not)lissa.
Yes. Definitely.
LDS here, and I just happen to be a granddaughter of Rulon Allred. No, the mainline LDS church does not believe that polygamy will be practiced in heaven. There is no doctrine to support this teaching....not sure where others come up with this myth.
I know very little about the different groups. Having all the churches stemmed from Joseph Smith, do all of them refer to themselves as mormons?
When Brigham Young, governor of Utah Territory, had some dignitaries & their wives visit from Washington DC, to check things out in the west, they had a formal dinner & without any shame, Brigham introduced the group to 3 or 4 of his wives, maybe thinking that with how well dressed & dignified the wives were, the group would be impressed. Oh, they were sooooo impressed that they high tailed it out of Utah Territory the next day I think, to hurry back & tell the US congress to never allow Utah to get statehood !! Needless to say the wine & dine evening was a big flop.
I just can't believe that knowing what is known about inherited health issues...people are not worried about marrying even a 2nd cousin...or worried about the fact producing special needs children increases with a mans age...
Just to share a bit about temples and changes from an LDS perspective. The endowment ceremony is a time in the temple when we learn sacred teachings and make covenants with God. We believe these covenants and teachings fuller bind us to Christ and therefore give us spiritual strength throughout our lives. But there is a difference between the actual endowment (covenants and teachings) and the presentation of the endowment (which is the symbolic ceremony that is used to help us understand the endowment). Joseph Smith restored the endowment and that has not changed. But the way it is presented can change as symbols lose their meaning over time as society changes. Jesus taught wonderful teachings through parables or symbolic stories. The parables he used in biblical times made complete sense to the people at that time. But I know I have a hard time understanding! I am sure if Jesus were teaching people today He would use very different parables to demonstrate His lessons. But the lessons themselves would not change.
In the Catholic Church, they do something like this for children, during the bronze duke of Edinburgh award I taught the kids in my parish about the teachings in the Bible. In a way that children understand When we do the sacrament of holy communion, confirmation and the sacrament of reconciliation we have lessons and booklets to help to understand the sacrament in more detail . To the point that you made out about the parables I completely agree that he would do different examples today.
@@hannahbell7420 thank you for sharing that :)
The endowment session has been changed many times as have the garment styles. Most of the temple endowment ceremony is taken from the Masonic ceremony as Joseph had learned it prior to building of the Kirkland Temple. I learned this 😢information by reading Gospel Topics Essays from the Church’s’ internet site.
information
@@patricianoel7782like I said changes to the ceremony should not matter. Or changes to the garments. The meaning behind them is what is important. I wear garments today for the same purpose as they did in the beginning. It doesn't matter that the physical design has changed to fit better with what we wear today. And the mason thing goes with that idea too. It was familiar to Joseph and the people
involved. I don't see why God wouldn't use rituals they were familiar with to help them understand more fully. Are you also LDS? Or just reading the essays out of curiosity?
RED FLAG....don't tell anyone about your 3 moms or who all your siblings are....
Sam do you have any contact with any of your siblings
All of the siblings that have left.
Sam and Melissa. You MUST read Educated. Then listen to the 3 interviews on Mormon Stories.
Christine Brown is the granddaughter of Rulon Allred.
It's nice she had a good experience but most AUB families who share talk about forced marriages, marrying cousins & step children, keeping bloodlines pure, & violence.
I think that's the Kingston Group. The leader is married to his own half sisters and like 2 of his nieces. Kingstons are all about keeping the blood pure. When I hear that it reminds me of Harry Potter 😬
So are they still LDS?
Interview Tip....Ask the question, let them answer!
Y’all’s mics are really echoing
AUB line of authority
Joseph smith
Brigham young
John Taylor
Wilford woodruff
Lorenzo Snow
Joseph F Smith
John W Wooly
Lorie C Woolley
J Leslie Broadbent
John Y Barlow
Joseph w. Musser
Rulon c Allred
Owen A Allred
J Lamoine Jenson
Lynn Thompson
Dave Watson
So are Sam and Melissa lds? Or something else?
Is Addi on UA-cam
Not yet, though we were trying to convince her ;)
She has great stage presence, and could develop great content from her perspective, and she could say: Addmi, MyCall (gees...).
Hi
Addie actually knows very little history of the AUB so take it with a grain of salt. She also has no idea how the leadership is set up. Or much at all about her faith accept growing up in a family with multiple wives.
She spoke well from her perspective, as someone who distanced herself out of that, not as someone ingrained in it.