Learning of the disappearance of Emma Madden's story actually made my skin crawl. It seems we've entered an age where truth is often forcibly discredited and squelched and lies are protected and promoted with a fierce (and often frightening) diligence.
Yes, this was the part that made me the most uncomfortable! I’m not sure what to think about it. I also wonder if it’s partially the machinery behind Saint Vincent or it’s herself that’s responsible. There’s a whole machinery behind artists once they get to a certain point.
@@popcornphilosopher One thing that occurred to me is that she was discussing her father's guilt while his own legal team may have been working on a civil suit or something that an admission of guilt might complicate. And yeah... if she has Madonna's publicist or whatever, then it stands to reason that everything she says is being closely guarded and scrutinized. And it could be as innocent as her leaving the interview and realizing she didn't want to discuss that personal stuff as much as she thought she was prepared to when writing the album. And yeah, the whole prison abolition argument felt left-field. It's a great topic, but why corner St. Vincent on it. And what did it have to do with anything? So yeah, I think her publicist was like "No way we are starting off your press tour with some gotcha tabloid journalism" and killed the piece. I'm more intrigued by her silly self-mythologizing around when she discovered Kate Bush. I don't think it's anything to cancel her over. But I do think it's kinda funny to see the artifice behind the artiste. David Bowie was famously full of contradictions and self-mythologizing tales that didn't quite add up. But when he did it, people called him an enigma and a genius. So, I definitely think that there's a strain of eye-rolling misogyny when it comes to how a lot of men around music talk about the real auteur and Art Rock types of women in music. They are held to impossible standards and laughed at when they fall short. Kate survived it, but she clearly suffered slings and arrows from the moment she stepped into the spotlight. She's been a household name in the UK for 45 years, but it might not have been a great trade-off to have put up with so much sexism and sh*t-talking along the way.
I don't know how an artist could not be influenced by other artists. In fact I think it's kinda part of the process. Go back in time to Beethoven, his first two symphonies were him basically trying to copy Mozart and Haydn. In fact go a step further and realize that there were in fact social expectations about how music was supposed to be. Beethoven actually had music rejected for being too creative (the Missa Solemnis) and not conforming enough to expectation. Jump forward and now people are so scared of being called fraud or something, and it's almost enough to make an artist not want to write anything. Hell, go back and listen to ABBA's first or second albums and the influence of their time (the Beatles in particular) was obvious, until they got their own artistic footing. Imagine if people attacked them for just being copycats.
Hey there! Good point! Even Kate Bush said that that’s how we describe Music at first anyway. I just feel like new female artists especially in that kind of experimental pop genre often get pigeonholed and stuck with the comparison for a long time! Takes much longer to shake it
I have a lot of thoughts about this, too many to mention. I am & always will be a huge Kate Bush fan and it just so happens I love a bit of St Vincent and she was genuinely an amazing musician when I went to see her a few years ago. I don't think it's so much as a contrived lie as an mis-memory. We all suffer from mis-memories. I also think it's worth pointing out that it's totally possible to have bought a later record before discovering the back catalog. My first Kate Bush album was Hounds of Love, and didn't get the dreaming until years and years later, both musically and physically. Written interviews could've been easily been mis-quoted, She could've discovered The Dreaming, not Kate Bush in that article. That wouldn't be the first time written interviews have mis-quoted. I genuinely think too much has been made out of it. I do agree female artists get a much harder time and in my experience any female who is not pop and can play an instrument get compared to Kate Bush by what I would describe as musically unintelligent or musically lazy people. You just have to see Kate Bush forums to see how her hard core obsessive fans often find it difficult to accept other female singers, don't dare mention Tori Amos in Kate Bush forum and it appears at the moment its St Vincents turn to get hammered by predominantly male Kate Bush fans. Big Boi's induction of Kate Bush was terrible but no one talks about that, instead they talk about St V's performance which to be fair I really enjoyed. Kate Bush is unique, creative one of a kind and has never played the fame game. I think the interview that got killed from the little you shared just didn't sound like a good interview or good experience for St V & if you're constantly fighting negativity or people coming after you, trying to trip you up just because you make music, I suspect mentally it effects how you you think you might be seen. People in the public eye are constantly lynched and it must make you paranoid and guarded.
To be honest, only Annie knows her level of Kate Bush fandom or when it started. I had to contend with the fact that I probably wouldn’t even know about this if it were a male artist. But of course I couldn’t help but be interested because of how many people are going off about it and then the Emma Madden thing on Reddit . I didn’t personally care for St. Vincent’s performance, at Kate’s induction. but that doesn’t mean i think she’s a bad artist. I think it was an off night because I’ve seen her play very well. And she’s very talented. She had a moment where people appeciated that. But then the tides turned, and she’s taken a beating in the last four or five years. I can totally imagine it made her paranoid and honestly rightfully so!
Amazed at this. Thank you for your very balanced approach and it’s so interesting to think about! And we do forget that at one time Bjork and Kate Bush were accused of the same stuff. Which is very unfair but so weird how it all plays out.
Thank you I was really hoping to be balanced! And yes it’s incredible now to think back when one thinks about everything they’ve accomplished! But I see the pattern everywhere now.
Influence is often a subliminal thing. It isn't necessary to admit a specific influence, we are all influenced by people, things, events, especially in our formative years (either as a person or as an artist). Even the Beatles were influenced by the likes of Chuck Berry etc. As far as Kate is concerned, she received plenty of negative feedback right from the start (screeching voice, exaggerated expressions etc). Envy is often a motivator. And in these days of social media, it is all too easy to throw mud. One of the things I have always admired about Kate is that she has done things her way, even to the extent of not releasing an album for 12 years, not performing on stage for more than thirty years etc. From the very first, she insisted on HER choice for her first single.
Yes, I admire that too so much! She such an example for being kind, but also sticking strong to your conviction! That’s a good point! I was actually gonna add about the Beatles! how the beach boys and the Beatles cited each other as influences for the turning points in their careers! But the video was already so long haha!
Damn girl. This video is deep and so much more than the induction ceremony. The music industry, in general, wants to view female acts as rivals. Joan and Judy, Tori and Kate, Whitney and Mariah, Gaga and Madonna, Streisand and Celine , etc. Is a such a crime to appreciate these artists for their individual contributions? Kate said her influences were based on the music that she heard as a child which were traditional pieces or records her older brothers purchased. It was the same for Tori. Both The Beatles and Stones admired early blues but I wouldn't say...oh Mick is copying John or John wants to be Elvis. Michael Jackson admired James Brown but does that define his career? Grief. I don't personally care which KB album St. Vincent first heard. I know my own experience with Kate was Pat Benatar's version of "Wuthering Heights" and then a compilation cassette featuring Kate singing "The Man With a Child in His Eyes". Huh...the same artist on both songs. Maybe I should check out this Kate Bush. And of course, the body image is an added and unnecessary burden for these women. Just look at the US cover of Kate's first LP. It's much different than the UK cover. What marketing genius orchestrated that? Kate built her own studio to reduce costs of recording. She wanted to take as much time as she needed to create the album they way she wanted to sound. I read that the record company almost dropped Kate after "The Dreaming" because she wasn't commercial. Then came "Hounds" and suddenly she's an industry darling. Oh Kate...you're AMAZING! Kate stated that her live performances were primarily credited to her son. I think Kate had a desire to perform with him. I also personally believe she wanted to see her vision of a Ninth Wave come into existence. She's never mentioned it but there was a scrapped long-form video for that LP that was never completed. Kate claims she didn't like the footage of the 2014 shows and therefore has no plans to release the professional DVD. So sad for anyone not able to attend. I had hoped for a pre-recorded message thanking the Hall of Fame. I was really disappointed in the stock footage they featured and a single performance. Not the tribute I had hoped for. Has anyone started legal action for Nature against the recording industry? I'm sure birds could file a convincing copywrite infringement case against any artist. Let's just celebrate the creative process and stop trying to put a label or create drama about something so pure and beautiful as music.
Hey Leanne! Thank you yes, I guess that’s why it took me a long time! Yes, that pitting women up against each other. I could’ve gone on so much more about that! Like I found an interview of Tori, talking about that in the 90’s. And the picking up part of female artist is pervasive in every genre. It’s constant. I always kind of knew it existed but since I’ve made this video it’s crazy how much I notice it. If they’re talented, they always get a hero moment but the moment they start doing well people start clawing at them it’s just so sad. especially if they are hard pigeonhole like Kate Bush Totally agree about the induction. I wasn’t even going to cover it! Like I said, in the video was very anticlimactic I’m still glad she got in. But it was like no care was given at all. I hope all is good with you though !
I feel weird when you keep saying that "[woman] is accused of being a copycat of [another female singer]" when what is actually stated is similarities within the styles. And the claim that men aren't "accused" of copying. I remember the height of Britpop, all of them were straight up accused of just copying Beatles (and lot of them readily owned the influences). Every rock band was accused of copying whoever came before. Every grunge or post grunge band was "ripping off Nirvana". Every black male singer with falsetto or dance moves is copying Michael Jackson or Prince (Usher, Weeknd). Nirvana was accused of ripping off the Pixies (by those who had heard the Pixies). There is nothing wrong in admitting that your songs didn't come out of vacuum, and female artists not listing female influences sounds more like they too undervalue female art.
I actually did make that point at the end of the video. I think it’s natural that people are going to compare music first. That’s the way we first begin to describe music my point is that women are held to it for much longer . And the comparisons will come, even if they don’t even match up.
I suppose it happens but I don't seem to have seen many instances that men are asked in a "live" interview what they think of another male artist or band ...aside from hip-hop/rap. I have, however, seen multiple women asked to answer these types of question. Aretha, Whitney, Kate, Madonna, and Barbara for starters. It's always asked with a specific individual in mind and not a general question about the current music as if fueling the fire. If an artist has a certain look on their face, or worse ..doesn't react, or needs to use the restroom while another female icon is performing, it's now the headline the next day. And then damage control is sent in place because an apology is issued via social media. Beyonce and Taylor Swift both were called out at the last Grammy awards. I admire women like Stevie Nicks and Dolly Parton and others like them. They put their art above their ego.
The thing I find odd about St Vincent is when she talks about Kate Buch, she talks about her look and not her sound. It's about what she wore on the album, never her favourite song by her. For Caroline, the comparisons to Kate Bush are very surface level. St Vincent seems more like Kate. I can see the comparisons between Tori and Kate, but dollar store Kate Bush is extremely unkind to Tori, she's her own woman. Also, Zoomers only know about Running Up That Hill and purely because of Stranger Things. I want more covers of This Woman's Work! If Netflix played Calling All The Heroes, it's just as likely to accuse Weezer of being a Pound Shop It Bites. It just sucks that women are accused of copying other women to the point that they deny even listening to other women. Lulu gets nowhere near enough love. All y'all think Lulu's a shit album by Metallica! Normandy is in Northern France, it's where you stormed on D-Day! It's where you Saved Private Ryan! But yes, this is straight up misogyny on the part of music journalism.
Those are actually some great points! You’re right I mostly hear St. Vincent talking about her look. And thanks for the history lesson. Haha. I probably Should know that! I probably did, but my mind is like a seive sometimes! Not to mention I’ve driven through parts of northern France I agree Tori is her own woman. My aunt had all her albums so I grew up on her. More so than Kate, who only now being able to enjoy but once you scratch the surface, they’re very different. They do have some similarities though. I would probably be better if it was just music journalism rough on women though. But I see it everywhere now. Content creators and social media we give these female artists hero arcs for maybe a year or two and then we tear them down. It’s really sad.
If you watch all the clips from the BBC documentary on Kate Bush made by St V she eloquently and knowledgeably talks about Kate’s music and how it doesn’t do what normal songs do. I actually really like what she had to say about Kate in the documentary, as with all the other artists did such as Elton John, Stephen Fry, lyndsey Kemp & more. If you haven’t seen it it’s a brilliant watch
There was a time when Tori Amos had to deny she'd ever listened to Kate Bush back in the early 90s when she was first getting big. Granted I'm not a huge fan of Tori's music, but think she's talented, I understand why she felt she had to go that route when all the journalists asked her lazy questions comparing her to Kate. It must have been very frustrating to have those needless comparisons shoved in her face all the time while trying to do her own thing. I also see this situation with Björk where any eccentric, experimental female artist is immediately compared to her when most of them don't even sound remotely like her. Just like Kate, Björk has influenced tons of female (and male) artists but it's frankly sexist to keep comparing these women to to her instead of celebrating their individuality. It's very boring and tired. As for St. Vincent I've always thought she's more similar to David Bowie and Prince than to Kate. Sure she has some Kate influence but her music & personas are more in line with Bowie & Prince imo.
This has been made me realise how little I know about Kate's music in proper detail- I'm going to do something about that! I love the way you express yourself PP- I could listen to you pondering for hours! Cheers for this.
Wow, thank you so much. This video actually made me want to start a podcast. If he didn’t see it already and wanted to know more about the early parts of Kate’s career, you can learn with me on my journey playlist . Kate Bush Journey ua-cam.com/play/PLVaDWMlhe6SGJdpXW8VuH3ItYy6jBkJQ8.html
So much info watched it twice. One male, Don Henley, being accused of singing to tapes (and using autotune) currently. Had heard St. Vincent on local independent radio and liked what I heard. But all this other stuff is new to me. I tend to be a give them the benefit of the doubt person, so gotta believe there may be some misspoken moments and misquoting involved. Maybe she "rediscovered" Kate later. Maybe she gets bored in interviews and takes some liberties to keep things interesting. The other thing about erasing the interview, seems I have heard of others doing that - saying they don't want the interview going out after doing it. Wondering how often it happens. And regarding the Kate Bush live, I regret not seeking my soul to go to that. Heard she filmed the whole thing but won't release it. Wonder if that has anything to do with appearance comments about her. I love the triple album I have of it. Anyways, thanks again for another excellent video.
Oh, I just looked up the Don Henley thing. I don’t wish that kind of thing on someone. I mean, it does happen to men. Hello most famously Milli Vanilli. Just so much more to women. So am I wrong for sort of enjoying a male going through it for a change …a little? haha.But seriously, I don’t know how I feel about that. Isn’t he sort of known for his voice? I never thought of him as a Milli Vanilli. As far as Kate, I hope that we get to see that performance. And I hope we get to continue to see her and that she won’t just decide it’s just not worth it! Thank you for the kind words btw!
Hi Io and thanks again - as ever this was a really enjoyable video that had the twin advantages of having substance and galloping along at a good pace (not an easy trick to do). I guess my first thoughts would be in relation to what you posed about what you might do next and all I would say is that quite a few for long term Kate Bush fans (like me) would want to you to do in depth analysis of every one of her album songs, singles, B sides, live performances, bootleg recordings, interviews and all the rest, to such an extent that you were on that carousel until by the time you eventually got off it, you were a withered shell of a person whose entire life had passed you by! But in truth my only advice would be that you have to do what actually pleases you, what you enjoy and find fulfilling - and there is a whole world of music etc out there. The second thing would be a bit more mundane - consider doing what in some way you personally find beneficial to you yourself: you have a wage to earn and life to live. getting on to the more substantive points of the video and addressing the elephant in the room and the twin issues of the St Vincent comments and performance at RRHOF. On the latter, I didn't enjoy it at all and thought she looked and sounded completely overwhelmed it. On the former those conflicting comments have circulated for quite a while and I had known of them. my own gut feeling has always been that her comments to Pitchfork and her 'recent' discovery of Kate Bush is where the real misdirection lay, as something designed to try to neuter any suggestions that she had "copied" Kate. Although, of course you are absolutely correct to point out that her comments around 'The Sensual World' do sound like something of a stretch (although TSW is my own personal favourite KB album). Your video does raise (and does it very well) the whole curse of the solo female singer/songwriter. it seems to me that sooner or later a solo female singer songwriter is going to be compared to Kate Bush and Joni Mitchel - which strikes me as very unfair, because very few can withstand comparisons to those two. I personally think that people like Sinead O'Connor, Alanis Morisette, Eivor, and Bjork all took the best approach. They were open about there admiration for Kate (and in Sinead's case, as well as her admiration for Kate, also her immense dislike for Joni Mitchel's music), but went on to make music that is unmistakably their own. It is not really the influence that counts but what we do with it. As the old comedy sketch makes clear, in the end we are all influenced by the first person to blow into a conch shell and first person to bang sticks against a fallen tree trunk. Speaking of Bjork, she has spoken more than once about the treatment Kate Bush received from music journalists etc. One very interesting comment she made relates to Kate's 2005 album 'Aerial.' In that album Kate has a song called 'Mrs Bartolozzi' in which she sings about a housewife washing the laundry, and as she watches the clothes tumble and spin and intertwine in the washing machine, this great wave of longing is stirred within her about the passion and love and wonder she had felt in previous times, and she imagines the younger, freer, wilder, sheer undiluted passion that she had known. That song had drawn some comments that Kate had eventually succumbed in middle age to the inherent, idiosyncratic weirdness of her music to the extent she no longer connected with the wider world. Bjork pointed out the misogyny of this and that pervades much of the music industry. She said that the entire world seems to OK with a male performer singing about drugs, booze, and every woman he had ever slept with, but for a woman to sing of female longing and yearning is thought of as just too odd (and to my mind of course Bjork was correct). Oh, and it is a song you need to hear! I think as well that Kate's comments down the years about influence etc make her influences hard to pin down. She did cover versions of Beatles songs in local pubs, before her first record was ever released - but she didn't ever really cite them as an influence in her early days, but did mention them later on in her career. She often cites Roxy Music, but doesn't really say much about T-Rex. She has mentioned her admiration for Billie Holiday and Tina Turner, but not by way of influence, and her music has never really seemed to me to have anything that relates to them. There is one comment that she made quite early in her career that I have always felt said a lot about her attitude. On one occasion she said: “Every female you see at a piano is either Lynsey de Paul or Carole King [...] And most male music - not all of it, but the good stuff - really lays it on you. It really puts you against the wall. And that’s what I like to do. I’d like my music to intrude. Not many females succeed with that.” It has always seemed to me that that comment makes a lot of sense, when it comes to her influences, but also her music collaborations (apart from the Trio Bulgarka and her wonderful collaborations with them, it is pretty much uniformly always male performers that she has turned to). Oh, and by the way, Kate's voice on her latter albums? just take a listen to her albums "Aerial" and "50 Words for Snow" and be reassured. Chrissie Hynde attended Kate's 'Before the Dawn' concerts and speaking afterwards she said: “I saw two of the shows. Absolutely breathtaking,” [...] “She has the perfect voice - her voice made people cry. And her presence, it was all there. She could have been doing it for the last 30 years every night. You wouldn’t have known the difference." Thanks again. Very, very enjoyable.
Hey oh! Good to hear from you! You made some very interesting points. I hope I can remember everything as I’m commenting because I had a lot of thoughts. Firstly I really want to cover that song you’re talking about the one from Aeriel. I have a lot to say about that particular topic, and what Björk was talking about. I have a lot of topics I’m working on but if I can get around to it. Would you mind if I use that? I absolutely agree about artist taking their own direction . I’m working on a video about a young artist that I really like. And I really hope she has that journey. She goes her own way like a Sinead, Alanis or Björk. But after this video, I realize it can really go either way. I feel a little sorry for the artists of today. They often end up focusing on other things that in reality, don’t matter. But I understand if you have hate coming from all direction that it can be hard to focus on what really matters. The music. And often for those who put their head down and make music a lot of them get forgotten. Because they’re not in the news. It’s a sad state of affairs Also, I appreciate the kind words and understanding about the direction of my channel. UA-cam is always changing. Thankfully, my mind is flexible enough that I can change and still do things that I really like and I’m interested in. And not have to compromise But I was hoping you guys would understand that it might have to change how I do things. So that’s what I wanted to discuss with y’all. maybe we can come up with another way I can continue my kb journey.
@@popcornphilosopher Hi Io, I did reply to your question about you maybe using the Bjork - Mrs Bartolozzi comments, but as can happen with UA-cam, it fell of the comments list. But anyhow, the substance of what I replied was basically to say, yes, of course, go for it and sink your teeth into what she said and the issues she raised. Her original comments can be found on her sonic symbolism podcast and relates to "Post" and her comments are very interesting as she is talking about criticisms of herself and 'Post' which predates Kate's album 'Aerial' by about 10 years, but she uses Mrs Bartolozzi as almost an archetypal example of male criticisms of female artists. Now, "Aerial" was generally quite well received and was widely seen as a tremendous reappearance following a gap of 12 years since her previous album.. But there was a degree of dismissal about how some people reacted to it, and it is true that there is a shift in it in the way much of her music feels. I personally like 'Aerial' very much and think that it contains some of the most beautiful actual music of her career, especially on the second half of it the 'Sky of Honey' side. And it contains 'A Coral Room' which while not my favourite Kate Bush song is one that if somebody told me they thought it is her greatest song I wouldn't quibble about it at all. Anyway - enjoy Bjork and Mrs Bartolozzi
Hi Io in relation to the Annie Clark/St Vincent Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction ceremony that you referred to in this video, you might be interested in the video interview she has given to NME in that last few days (from about 16:50 for around a three minutes in total) where she is asked about it and talks about it fairly briefly. She does also mention 'singing along' to Kate Bush in a way that does seem to suggest it as a thing that she has done almost as a matter of course (but without any date as to when that became a thing).
Oh, I’m so sorry I missed this comment! That’s interesting…. thanks for letting me know, but do you have the link I was trying to find it couldn’t find a recent interview.
@@popcornphilosopher Hi Io I did try to reply to you with a link to the interview but YT didn't seem to like it and wouldn't let it appear. But, if you were to search for nme st vincent all born screaming kate bush then it should be near the top of the results. it is a quite interesting interview. Without wanting to raise the whole Tori Amos/Kate Bush influence thingamabob again, I do think you might enjoy a read at an interview Tori gave to "Vulture" in 2017 where I think we get some interesting thoughts about Tori, influences, Kate etc. I think that interview is fairly definite in showing that she regards Kate Bush as being important to the extent of being an exemplar, particularly a female exemplar , someone who's music matters, without just trying to replicate what she did, whereas she saw the way that how Robert Plant performed as something to strive for. A search along the lines of vulture Tori Amos kate bush matters should bring it up quite near the top of results.
I remember when Kate Bush released the promotional photo for the live shows, Before the Dawn (the one where she wears a life jacket), some journalists had called this offensive and linked it to her cashing in on a contemporaneous boating / drowning accident. She even had to make a statement about it on her website. (Pretty sure it was a Daily Mail / Mail Online story - no surprise!)
Regarding "The Dreaming" album as far as I know the back cover is no different between countries. So I don't know what St. VIncent meant by her comments about the back cover.
@@popcornphilosopher This video only makes me even more sure you’re probably THE most overlooked channel on youtube rn! You got the charisma, the knowledge and the dedication to do a full deepdive: the whole package! Can’t wait to tell people in a few years I was one of the early followers of THE popcornphilosopher hehe :D
You've presented a most evocative docu-commentary, from different perspectives. Of course female artists often get unfairly criticised (there are still way too few of them who sadly in today's world, deservedly achieve true critical and commercial success!). Insightful, compassionate and philosophical you are! Thank you!
What an interesting find. The Emma Madden thing I hadn’t heard about that I had heard about the Kate Bush lie and kind of brushed it off as no big deal, but I get your point. The article, however that’s strange. I still like to listen to St. Vincent though maybe I should just stick to that.
Yes, back in the day, Tori Amos was considered by some derivative and sub-par to Kate Bush. From some of her tunes I heard back then, it sounded like legit criticism.
Oh, I don’t agree. But I respect your opinion. I really love Tori Amos early music. But I grew up on it. My aunt had all her records. I’m pretty sure she was an influence, but she forged her own. Way
If I have to pick the best Kate Bush cover, you can't go wrong with Placebo's take on "Running Up That Hill," which is not so much a cover but a reinvention. In Placebo's hands it becomes a dissociated isolated cry for empathy and understanding while struggling/fighting to maintain an identity and coexist in the modern world. It's hard not to be devastated by Brian Molko's restrained vocals. And their music video... goddamn... 😢 (Twenty odd years later and their cover has become more relevant than ever...) ua-cam.com/video/d-mYX0qKkB8/v-deo.htmlsi=ekvKGuBRhj_H_Q34
I appreciate the way your stories develop, and the way you give air to sides of the story that probably don't deserve much consideration, but get it anyway. I have been a fan of Kate Bush since 1987/88... I'm very selective about what I watch in the way of interviews, especially when in the early days there was not much available (if like me you got interested after the whole story, then you'd missed all the interviews when she was huge news and they were first aired). One of the first moments I remember was I bought a bootleg CD of an interview in Tokyo... I thought she sounded weak, vapid, and unimportant. I was horrified. Until very recently there were very few promotion moments I could reconcile with the figure of Kate Bush in my head who is the genius creator of the most wonderful explorations into music as sound and story. But I have ventured. I've slowly had to come to realise that artists who choose to create in one medium do so because that's where they feel comfortable, that's where they can control what's being said. It's unfair to expect artists to interview well, and it undersells the art of the interviewer to call two stools and a list of questions an interview. I have, of course, now seen Kate Bush in early interviews where she does hold her own, and shows enormous depth of understanding while effortlessly and lithely supporting the right to be on a journey and excited of all the things that might come. I've also had to consider that you don't have to like everyone who's art you admire. But in this case I've completely come around. I also think part of my reaction was that I feared hearing criticism (from my friends) - or I couldn't allow her to be criticised. Maybe what took so long for me was the idea that a person who let's herself be seen as meek can create so ferociously. (The other way round) Anyway, I came here to say that my read of St Vincent is that she's nervous people will find out there's not much to her ideas... I was going to point to an early interview with KB by comparison where she is so much more self aware than St Vincent, so self confident and able to be easy.... (and thusly just bettererer) but in the way I've opened this I'm sort of arguing against myself and now I'm crying Leave Vitney Alone! ... So she's abrasive in interviews. So she's had the life she's had and not someones much worse off than hers. Her father's crimes weren't horrible enough, or he's a weak man or something. That's not why we have artists. We should only judge them through the things they make for us to see. And please, just a bit of pity for those who know their opportunity to make at a level that offers rewarding process for them means having to show all the right signs, give all the right markers, and please every two-bit parasite along the way lest their career be truncated. And to the point of the first part of the interview, it all fits. I was late to the party. I've only just got the dreaming. and I got the sensual world as a teenager. About nine years ago. I feel like I totally missed an era.. So yeah, definitely late to the party with Kate. Is plausible.
Ha ha Leave Vitney alone made me laugh. I see what you mean, but I wonder if many current artists instead of creating great work wind up defending themselves/Controlung the narrative. It ends up being about everything, but the music. I’ve seen so many that have had such a promising start. even though Kate Bush has had a lot of scrutiny since the beginning. I do think it’s worse now because there’s so many more opinions being voiced. But really, it’s hard to say for sure. Either way I had a lot more empathy than I started the video with.
Thank you, for your detailed analysis and your trip down this particular rabbit hole! 😁 I certainly do think that female artists are held to very much higher standards than their male counter parrs. I mean fenale artists aren't meant to ugly or unattractive. Regarding St Vincent's performance during Kate's induction which I stayed up for in the early hours in the UK, as it was streamed on Disney +, I did think that something was a little off. It would have brilliant if Kate had made an appearance, but she is known for having a fear of flying and I do wonder if wherher she was expected to perform live, if she did attend in person. So, bearing the above in mind, it would hwve been nice if she had recorded a short video expressing her thanks, that would be broadcast on the night. BTW regarding the over weight comments the Daily Mail and Daily Express are disgusting right wing UK newspapers. I waa very lucky to get tickets for Kate's last "Before The Dawn" performance, I was a bit concerned whether Kate's vouce would stand up after 21 previous performances, but Kate was just brilliant and the concert was an amazing unbelievable experience. So I don't think that Kate's voice has gotten worse with age, far from it. As for Kate's appearances, I managed to find two acceptance speeches that she made: 📍South Bank Sky Arts Pop.Award 2012 📍Editor's Award Evening Standard 2014 - for her "Before The Dawn" concerts. In terms of Radio Interviews 📍BBC Radio 6 - November 2016 - I believe this was brosdcast around the time of the release of her live akbum of "Before The Dawn" 📍BBC Radio 4 Women’s Hour interview 22th June 2022 - about the success of RUTH as a result of Stranger Things. If you need links to them, then please let me know. All the very best of wishes.
Thank you,! !I definitely would like those. When I researched it, I read a bunch of things. that said that there hasn’t been a public picture/video since 2014. It would make me so much more happy! I would be infinitely sad, if we no longer got to see Kate anymore! Because of someone’s unkind comments. Although I could hardly blame her I’ve been receiving end of those kind of comments that made me feel bad. But anyway I hope all is well in the UK!
@@popcornphilosopher BBC Radio 4 Women’s Hour 2022 ua-cam.com/video/LZ_PbcYOiq4/v-deo.htmlsi=n9Ri7GbtJPuE7mIi BBC Radio 6 2016 ua-cam.com/video/dd0V1tONWxQ/v-deo.htmlsi=jD26chCgQ5_6N2T0 Editor's Award Evening Standard 2014 ua-cam.com/video/BXw7zox20dA/v-deo.htmlsi=YtcBFBgUgbf7y9Oj South Bank Sky Arts Pop Award 2012 ua-cam.com/video/TRal_VAdrCU/v-deo.htmlsi=Gaz325214qxOLYF_
@popcornphilosopher I tried to put links in a reply to you. However, even though the reply was successfully posted, bloody UA-cam then removed it... I just hate it when it does that...
Ok, I've added them as a comment to your most recent community post and I've chopped off the 1st part of URL to the UA-cam videos. BTW, I'm sure that Bjork mentioned quite a while ago that "The Dreaming" was one of her favourite albums.
Firstly, thank you very much for the effort you have put into this analysis. I enjoy your style and how you focus on detail. It really makes your content captivating for me. I'm old enough to remember when Kate Bush broke through in the UK. I can tell you the popular press hated her. They didn't understand her and couldn't pigeon hole her. This meant that to them she was a crazy weirdo, strange and to be honest, the establishment in the popular music industry didn't like her at all. Im not talking about the musicians im talking about the journalists, the promotors and agents etc. They were comfortable with what they understand and could push out for people to consume. Regarding all the other stuff about judging artists, its just opinions and opinions are like a**holes, everybody has one. I was very surprised that some of these artists are engaging in the fight with the people they call ' haters'. Seriously, who cares? My advice for all those female artists is to take a leaf out of Kate's book. Be yourself, be confident in your own ability, don't engage in tittle tattle and get on with doing your own thing. Even to this day if you hear any report about Kate she is always referred to as a recluse or even a strange recluse. With respect to the R&R hall of fame my deep suspicion is that Kate doesn't care. She will always be polite and grateful, because she is such a nice person. She's done it, she's got nothing to prove, she doesn't need adulation. Once again thank you for your production and looking forward to finding out more of your Kate Bush journey.
Hey there thank you so much! Took a long time to put together but I’m glad I finally finished! Re: the haters comment I did cringe a little. But I kinda get it. There’s just so many more places for people to say horrible things. It’s a lot harder to ignore it today. Especially since the promotion of an artist is often up to the artist through social media. And can mean whether they can continue making music. It’s crazy how pervasive it is the tearing down especially a female artists. If I didn’t see it before I see it everywhere now. I’m still on the fence about St. Vincent but I definitely have more than I did when I started. I just hated to hear some of the things that were being said even about Kate Bush.(who is wonderful and deserves respect). I truly hope it is that she just doesn’t care. That would make my heart happy.
Hi Io .. I just re-watched this video, as I was a bit distracted the first time I saw it, and didn't really take it all in .. Lots of interesting stuff in it, as always .. But I thought I'd comment on the remarks made by that person you clearly were not impressed by, in which they criticised "old Kate's" voice and body. While I agree with you that the fat shaming and attacks on the sound of her later period voice were way over the top, I will agree with them on one thing .. Although I regard myself as a huge Kate fan, I too could easily live without having heard anything past "The Red Shoes" album .. Although there are many moments that I liked in the tracks from "Aeriel" and onwards, to me those albums were not the stuff that I connected with like before. It wasn't her voice .. It was the material .. It was clearly sophisticated and thoughtful, but in general the melodic content was far less satisfying than what I was used to, and I didn't find myself singing many of the songs in my head, like I once did all the time with her music .. Maybe that's more a reflection on me than on Kate, but that's how I feel .. However, she will always be one of my all-time favourite artists, and I love her work dearly. Cheers, and I hope you are well and happy, my friend .. Wayne
Tori Amos was compared to Kate Bush because they are both piano players who are great. She never had a problem that I heard but I stopped following her after the 1st four albums
Very strange... I've just posted a very long comment about this video and it seems to have strangely disapeared allthough it was a nice comment. I noticed this as I was trying to add another comment to the first one. I won't try to re-write the first one but here's the second one: And concerning Kate Bush legacy or influence on other female pop artists, for me there are only 3 other female artists who can seriously be compared (in some ways) to Kate Bush without being accused of being copy cats because their respective works are also very personal and original: Tori Amos, Björk and Joanna Newsom. But they all have different goals and personalities which is a nice thing and implies much respect for all of them.🙂
Oh, and Cocteau Twins Elizabeth Fraser too, in some other ways. But I always considered Liz being even a better vocalist than KB, so if you don't know her, you should listen to her work with Cocteau Twins or collaborations with other artists like Massive Attack.
I’m sorry about your first comment ! That happens to me sometimes and it’s very frustrating! I actually had plans to check out Cocteau Twins on the channel especially when they released the remastered albums. Eventually wanna get around to that because I have enjoyed everything I’ve heard! I agree about your list, but I would definitely add Caroline Polachek to that list. As I said, in the video, I think she’s going to continue to make interesting work.
Rest easy my Dear……you are uncanny in your ability to project your sincerity and earnestness. Do you wonder sometimes if your curiosity crosses a line? Well of course it does…..join the human race. We are all guilty of morbid curiosity. Do you wonder that some of us might ask you to mind your own business? It would would be a surprise if you said “no” because it is so clearly evident that you are aware of the audiences hypersensitivity. You deserve a “thank you” for that. You never seek to offend. But beyond that, you actively search for different voices…..even for those which will likely contradict your predictions. The balance you search for and crave…..well, it’s actually quite lovely. Although it may at times lead to indecision it’s a road you cannot resist traveling upon. It’s your infrastructure. The way you’re wired. You can judge the individual apart from the action. You can love someone but hate the things they do. The two aren’t intertwined. Not everyone has the sensitivity to look at what inspired the crime and therefore gain a greater understanding of the criminal. But you do. So rest easy, Dear Heart. Your altruism…..your innate fairness…..your tempering of recompense….and your sympathy. These will always carry you to the high road. Some will judge you. Pay them heed. They are there for a reason. But remain true to you. Stay lifted and live your life well. .
Wow, thank you so much for your well considered comment! So very true and kind. That’s pretty incredible you’re able to see that. And yes I definitely am indecisive at times haha! Honestly, a lot of the people I talked about in this video can probably be in this category too. It’s something very easily misunderstood. That’s why I had some empathy for St. Vincent because I kinda get it But, thanks again and a very wonderful evening to you!
@popcornphilosopher I heard Kate Bush for the first time in 1978.or 79..on SNL...never heard anything like her before...the only woman that reminded me of her a little around that time was Nina hagen.and line lovich...
Your gross exaggerations of the very trivial complaints concerning SAINT VINCENT, clearly designed for your own personal promotion, make you every bit as guilty of the very misogyny that you so rightfully decry in others!
I partially agree… that’s one of the points I make in the video. I don’t think I would’ve even known about this had this been a male artist. People nitpick at everything female artists do. And you don’t even notice the double standard because we’re so used to it. I’m guilty of it too. Because I participated in it. At first I thought it was silly. little story. But it really opened my eyes and I was hoping it would open others too.
@@popcornphilosopher ANNIE CLARK (SAINT VINCENT) is one of the most innovative guitarists in the world today, and yet I've had to defend her playing for years from male chauvinist pigs on the internet who blatantly proclaim that women are inferior musicians to men! They don't even try to hide their misogyny! And now they're starting in on the three Mexican sisters in THE WARNING, who have literally been playing ever since they could walk up to their instruments and are so enjoyable to watch!! And they also go after women characters in super-hero movies, especially BRIE LARSON, but others, as well! I come from the Haudenosaunee culture where women have been powerful and respected for centuries, and the colonial patriarchy just sickens me!
I think you're absolutely CORRECT about female artists feeling they need to cite MALE artists for inspiration, ESPECIALLY early on. I mean look at Aurora. She said she was a huge fan of Florence + the Machine and that she was an inspiration to.... not thinking they had a single thing in common musically and sort of being insulting with how quickly she shoots it down and the comments she likes. she only lists Bjork as a female influence, I'm guessing because the older the artist is it makes it somehow more respectable and paying homage at least. But I will say, I think Tori was influenced by Kate Bush. I genuinely do think Tori BECAME her own artist and had elements of herself in her earlier work, but there are clear times where she was absolutely influenced by Kate and we see this not just in songs but her mimicking things Kate has done. Like , the posing in the wooden box? The sepia toned image in the wheat background and their arms out. Whether Tori was aware or not, someone was mimicking Kate Bush a bit in her marketing a pinch. I don't think she defined her entire career off of it by any means though or that it defines her. I will say I also heard that. . . . and this is absolutely heresay . . . I've just seen it in comments in a few places that Florence was actually ASKED to do the performance, but was having passport or VISA issues or something? It's probably a lie given how often Florence performs in the US without an issue but . . . I thought Florence and several others would've been a far better fit than Annie for a Kate Bush performance. As I recall, Bat for Lashes was also in that documentary and I believe Lorde's Melodrama to be more Kate inspired than anything Annie has ever done. Not saying Annie has done things of lesser value, but just the inspiration isn't' clear to me. And of course Caroline would've been a fantastic choice as well. Kate was deserving of far more than a singular performance. Also IT IS so hard for female artists to be taken seriously. They are undermined at every turn. I mean look at what is going on with The Last Dinner Party. People keep on saying they're an industry plant, which even if they were that just means they were seen for their talent and the industry wanted to give them a platform and the nourishment to grow the best they could? Would that even have been said about a male fronted band? Women have been so used to having to expect in the industry to be replaced or look at other women as competition, which is why while she isn't the first I've been so proud as a fan of Florence Welch's that she's working with other women in the industry. That she collaborated with Gaga ( who I don't support but still ) and Taylor ( soon ) and is choosing FEMALE acts as her opening acts. Shes' chosen Billie Eilish, Maggie Rogers, King Princess and Ethel Cain AND The Last Dinner Party and MORE as her supporting acts. ALL of them female.
Wow, you made some incredible points here! I wonder if people tell these ladies to not do this. or if they just see the generation before get compared so they avoid saying a female artist like the plague? Yes, I wanted to bring up Aurora…..I wanted to bring up a lot of artists. But the video already took so many side turns! It seems like when these ladies have a body of work of their own, maybe they have more confidence and can admit it. There’s nothing wrong with influence. Another thing I wanted to bring up is that the Beatles and The Beach Boys cite each other as influences for their biggest, turning point albums. And it’s more a fun fact than an accusation. That’s fascinating about Florence! That would’ve been a great choice! I don’t think St. Vincent is bad. I think she had an off night. But that is weird because I actually saw Florence’s first American show. I forget when it was I think it was like 2008/9. Medium sized club. she wasn’t having issues then. so that makes no sense that she would be having them now. That was another thing I was going to bring up in my video is the industry plant thing. Or even when people say, someone is manufactured, Because if thats true. They would’ve said Kate Bush is an industry plant and manufactured. Because they developed her as an artist when she was signed at 13. Which, of course is ridiculous and stupid. But it’s much like Billie Eilish. Anyway, thank you for a great comment.!
@@popcornphilosopher Oh wow, thanks for reading and even replying! I know that was long winded AF. I get sucked into writing a string of thoughts sometimes. :) Summarizing is NOT my expertise! Unfortunately the Kate Bush performance originally being Florence is probably untrue and just fans writing fanfiction ha. But I would've loved it, I thought she made more sense. and OF COURSE I know St. Vincent is talented. Absolutely she is. I just think Annie would be more suited for other Kate songs. But they just want to keep pushing Running Up That Hill! Which I think Florence would've been a better choice for, so I kind of believe it. But thanks for replying! I loved your video, I was like " I've been thinking about these topics " and it scratched the itch in my brain. I watched a few of your videos and was happy to find this little niche on the internet. :)
Learning of the disappearance of Emma Madden's story actually made my skin crawl. It seems we've entered an age where truth is often forcibly discredited and squelched and lies are protected and promoted with a fierce (and often frightening) diligence.
Yes, this was the part that made me the most uncomfortable! I’m not sure what to think about it. I also wonder if it’s partially the machinery behind Saint Vincent or it’s herself that’s responsible. There’s a whole machinery behind artists once they get to a certain point.
@@popcornphilosopher One thing that occurred to me is that she was discussing her father's guilt while his own legal team may have been working on a civil suit or something that an admission of guilt might complicate. And yeah... if she has Madonna's publicist or whatever, then it stands to reason that everything she says is being closely guarded and scrutinized. And it could be as innocent as her leaving the interview and realizing she didn't want to discuss that personal stuff as much as she thought she was prepared to when writing the album. And yeah, the whole prison abolition argument felt left-field. It's a great topic, but why corner St. Vincent on it. And what did it have to do with anything? So yeah, I think her publicist was like "No way we are starting off your press tour with some gotcha tabloid journalism" and killed the piece.
I'm more intrigued by her silly self-mythologizing around when she discovered Kate Bush. I don't think it's anything to cancel her over. But I do think it's kinda funny to see the artifice behind the artiste. David Bowie was famously full of contradictions and self-mythologizing tales that didn't quite add up. But when he did it, people called him an enigma and a genius. So, I definitely think that there's a strain of eye-rolling misogyny when it comes to how a lot of men around music talk about the real auteur and Art Rock types of women in music. They are held to impossible standards and laughed at when they fall short. Kate survived it, but she clearly suffered slings and arrows from the moment she stepped into the spotlight. She's been a household name in the UK for 45 years, but it might not have been a great trade-off to have put up with so much sexism and sh*t-talking along the way.
I don't know how an artist could not be influenced by other artists. In fact I think it's kinda part of the process. Go back in time to Beethoven, his first two symphonies were him basically trying to copy Mozart and Haydn. In fact go a step further and realize that there were in fact social expectations about how music was supposed to be. Beethoven actually had music rejected for being too creative (the Missa Solemnis) and not conforming enough to expectation. Jump forward and now people are so scared of being called fraud or something, and it's almost enough to make an artist not want to write anything. Hell, go back and listen to ABBA's first or second albums and the influence of their time (the Beatles in particular) was obvious, until they got their own artistic footing. Imagine if people attacked them for just being copycats.
Hey there! Good point! Even Kate Bush said that that’s how we describe Music at first anyway. I just feel like new female artists especially in that kind of experimental pop genre often get pigeonholed and stuck with the comparison for a long time! Takes much longer to shake it
I have a lot of thoughts about this, too many to mention. I am & always will be a huge Kate Bush fan and it just so happens I love a bit of St Vincent and she was genuinely an amazing musician when I went to see her a few years ago. I don't think it's so much as a contrived lie as an mis-memory. We all suffer from mis-memories. I also think it's worth pointing out that it's totally possible to have bought a later record before discovering the back catalog. My first Kate Bush album was Hounds of Love, and didn't get the dreaming until years and years later, both musically and physically. Written interviews could've been easily been mis-quoted, She could've discovered The Dreaming, not Kate Bush in that article. That wouldn't be the first time written interviews have mis-quoted. I genuinely think too much has been made out of it. I do agree female artists get a much harder time and in my experience any female who is not pop and can play an instrument get compared to Kate Bush by what I would describe as musically unintelligent or musically lazy people. You just have to see Kate Bush forums to see how her hard core obsessive fans often find it difficult to accept other female singers, don't dare mention Tori Amos in Kate Bush forum and it appears at the moment its St Vincents turn to get hammered by predominantly male Kate Bush fans. Big Boi's induction of Kate Bush was terrible but no one talks about that, instead they talk about St V's performance which to be fair I really enjoyed. Kate Bush is unique, creative one of a kind and has never played the fame game. I think the interview that got killed from the little you shared just didn't sound like a good interview or good experience for St V & if you're constantly fighting negativity or people coming after you, trying to trip you up just because you make music, I suspect mentally it effects how you you think you might be seen. People in the public eye are constantly lynched and it must make you paranoid and guarded.
Very good points. 👍
To be honest, only Annie knows her level of Kate Bush fandom or when it started. I had to contend with the fact that I probably wouldn’t even know about this if it were a male artist. But of course I couldn’t help but be interested because of how many people are going off about it and then the Emma Madden thing on Reddit . I didn’t personally care for St. Vincent’s performance, at Kate’s induction. but that doesn’t mean i think she’s a bad artist. I think it was an off night because I’ve seen her play very well. And she’s very talented. She had a moment where people appeciated that. But then the tides turned, and she’s taken a beating in the last four or five years. I can totally imagine it made her paranoid and honestly rightfully so!
Amazed at this. Thank you for your very balanced approach and it’s so interesting to think about! And we do forget that at one time Bjork and Kate Bush were accused of the same stuff. Which is very unfair but so weird how it all plays out.
Thank you I was really hoping to be balanced! And yes it’s incredible now to think back when one thinks about everything they’ve accomplished! But I see the pattern everywhere now.
Influence is often a subliminal thing. It isn't necessary to admit a specific influence, we are all influenced by people, things, events, especially in our formative years (either as a person or as an artist). Even the Beatles were influenced by the likes of Chuck Berry etc. As far as Kate is concerned, she received plenty of negative feedback right from the start (screeching voice, exaggerated expressions etc). Envy is often a motivator. And in these days of social media, it is all too easy to throw mud. One of the things I have always admired about Kate is that she has done things her way, even to the extent of not releasing an album for 12 years, not performing on stage for more than thirty years etc. From the very first, she insisted on HER choice for her first single.
Yes, I admire that too so much! She such an example for being kind, but also sticking strong to your conviction! That’s a good point! I was actually gonna add about the Beatles! how the beach boys and the Beatles cited each other as influences for the turning points in their careers! But the video was already so long haha!
Damn girl. This video is deep and so much more than the induction ceremony. The music industry, in general, wants to view female acts as rivals. Joan and Judy, Tori and Kate, Whitney and Mariah, Gaga and Madonna, Streisand and Celine , etc. Is a such a crime to appreciate these artists for their individual contributions? Kate said her influences were based on the music that she heard as a child which were traditional pieces or records her older brothers purchased. It was the same for Tori. Both The Beatles and Stones admired early blues but I wouldn't say...oh Mick is copying John or John wants to be Elvis. Michael Jackson admired James Brown but does that define his career? Grief. I don't personally care which KB album St. Vincent first heard. I know my own experience with Kate was Pat Benatar's version of "Wuthering Heights" and then a compilation cassette featuring Kate singing "The Man With a Child in His Eyes". Huh...the same artist on both songs. Maybe I should check out this Kate Bush. And of course, the body image is an added and unnecessary burden for these women. Just look at the US cover of Kate's first LP. It's much different than the UK cover. What marketing genius orchestrated that? Kate built her own studio to reduce costs of recording. She wanted to take as much time as she needed to create the album they way she wanted to sound. I read that the record company almost dropped Kate after "The Dreaming" because she wasn't commercial. Then came "Hounds" and suddenly she's an industry darling. Oh Kate...you're AMAZING! Kate stated that her live performances were primarily credited to her son. I think Kate had a desire to perform with him. I also personally believe she wanted to see her vision of a Ninth Wave come into existence. She's never mentioned it but there was a scrapped long-form video for that LP that was never completed. Kate claims she didn't like the footage of the 2014 shows and therefore has no plans to release the professional DVD. So sad for anyone not able to attend. I had hoped for a pre-recorded message thanking the Hall of Fame. I was really disappointed in the stock footage they featured and a single performance. Not the tribute I had hoped for. Has anyone started legal action for Nature against the recording industry? I'm sure birds could file a convincing copywrite infringement case against any artist. Let's just celebrate the creative process and stop trying to put a label or create drama about something so pure and beautiful as music.
Hey Leanne! Thank you yes, I guess that’s why it took me a long time! Yes, that pitting women up against each other. I could’ve gone on so much more about that! Like I found an interview of Tori, talking about that in the 90’s. And the picking up part of female artist is pervasive in every genre. It’s constant. I always kind of knew it existed but since I’ve made this video it’s crazy how much I notice it. If they’re talented, they always get a hero moment but the moment they start doing well people start clawing at them it’s just so sad. especially if they are hard pigeonhole like Kate Bush
Totally agree about the induction. I wasn’t even going to cover it! Like I said, in the video was very anticlimactic I’m still glad she got in. But it was like no care was given at all.
I hope all is good with you though !
I feel weird when you keep saying that "[woman] is accused of being a copycat of [another female singer]" when what is actually stated is similarities within the styles. And the claim that men aren't "accused" of copying. I remember the height of Britpop, all of them were straight up accused of just copying Beatles (and lot of them readily owned the influences). Every rock band was accused of copying whoever came before. Every grunge or post grunge band was "ripping off Nirvana". Every black male singer with falsetto or dance moves is copying Michael Jackson or Prince (Usher, Weeknd). Nirvana was accused of ripping off the Pixies (by those who had heard the Pixies). There is nothing wrong in admitting that your songs didn't come out of vacuum, and female artists not listing female influences sounds more like they too undervalue female art.
I actually did make that point at the end of the video. I think it’s natural that people are going to compare music first. That’s the way we first begin to describe music my point is that women are held to it for much longer . And the comparisons will come, even if they don’t even match up.
I suppose it happens but I don't seem to have seen many instances that men are asked in a "live" interview what they think of another male artist or band ...aside from hip-hop/rap. I have, however, seen multiple women asked to answer these types of question. Aretha, Whitney, Kate, Madonna, and Barbara for starters. It's always asked with a specific individual in mind and not a general question about the current music as if fueling the fire. If an artist has a certain look on their face, or worse ..doesn't react, or needs to use the restroom while another female icon is performing, it's now the headline the next day. And then damage control is sent in place because an apology is issued via social media. Beyonce and Taylor Swift both were called out at the last Grammy awards. I admire women like Stevie Nicks and Dolly Parton and others like them. They put their art above their ego.
@@leannemiller9514 this is so incredibly true! That’s a great point!
The thing I find odd about St Vincent is when she talks about Kate Buch, she talks about her look and not her sound. It's about what she wore on the album, never her favourite song by her.
For Caroline, the comparisons to Kate Bush are very surface level. St Vincent seems more like Kate.
I can see the comparisons between Tori and Kate, but dollar store Kate Bush is extremely unkind to Tori, she's her own woman.
Also, Zoomers only know about Running Up That Hill and purely because of Stranger Things. I want more covers of This Woman's Work!
If Netflix played Calling All The Heroes, it's just as likely to accuse Weezer of being a Pound Shop It Bites.
It just sucks that women are accused of copying other women to the point that they deny even listening to other women. Lulu gets nowhere near enough love. All y'all think Lulu's a shit album by Metallica!
Normandy is in Northern France, it's where you stormed on D-Day! It's where you Saved Private Ryan!
But yes, this is straight up misogyny on the part of music journalism.
Those are actually some great points! You’re right I mostly hear St. Vincent talking about her look. And thanks for the history lesson. Haha. I probably Should know that! I probably did, but my mind is like a seive sometimes! Not to mention I’ve driven through parts of northern France
I agree Tori is her own woman. My aunt had all her albums so I grew up on her. More so than Kate, who only now being able to enjoy but once you scratch the surface, they’re very different. They do have some similarities though.
I would probably be better if it was just music journalism rough on women though. But I see it everywhere now. Content creators and social media we give these female artists hero arcs for maybe a year or two and then we tear them down. It’s really sad.
If you watch all the clips from the BBC documentary on Kate Bush made by St V she eloquently and knowledgeably talks about Kate’s music and how it doesn’t do what normal songs do. I actually really like what she had to say about Kate in the documentary, as with all the other artists did such as Elton John, Stephen Fry, lyndsey Kemp & more. If you haven’t seen it it’s a brilliant watch
There was a time when Tori Amos had to deny she'd ever listened to Kate Bush back in the early 90s when she was first getting big. Granted I'm not a huge fan of Tori's music, but think she's talented, I understand why she felt she had to go that route when all the journalists asked her lazy questions comparing her to Kate. It must have been very frustrating to have those needless comparisons shoved in her face all the time while trying to do her own thing.
I also see this situation with Björk where any eccentric, experimental female artist is immediately compared to her when most of them don't even sound remotely like her. Just like Kate, Björk has influenced tons of female (and male) artists but it's frankly sexist to keep comparing these women to to her instead of celebrating their individuality.
It's very boring and tired.
As for St. Vincent I've always thought she's more similar to David Bowie and Prince than to Kate. Sure she has some Kate influence but her music & personas are more in line with Bowie & Prince imo.
This has been made me realise how little I know about Kate's music in proper detail- I'm going to do something about that! I love the way you express yourself PP- I could listen to you pondering for hours! Cheers for this.
Wow, thank you so much. This video actually made me want to start a podcast. If he didn’t see it already and wanted to know more about the early parts of Kate’s career, you can learn with me on my journey playlist . Kate Bush Journey
ua-cam.com/play/PLVaDWMlhe6SGJdpXW8VuH3ItYy6jBkJQ8.html
So much info watched it twice. One male, Don Henley, being accused of singing to tapes (and using autotune) currently. Had heard St. Vincent on local independent radio and liked what I heard. But all this other stuff is new to me. I tend to be a give them the benefit of the doubt person, so gotta believe there may be some misspoken moments and misquoting involved. Maybe she "rediscovered" Kate later. Maybe she gets bored in interviews and takes some liberties to keep things interesting. The other thing about erasing the interview, seems I have heard of others doing that - saying they don't want the interview going out after doing it. Wondering how often it happens. And regarding the Kate Bush live, I regret not seeking my soul to go to that. Heard she filmed the whole thing but won't release it. Wonder if that has anything to do with appearance comments about her. I love the triple album I have of it. Anyways, thanks again for another excellent video.
Oh, I just looked up the Don Henley thing. I don’t wish that kind of thing on someone. I mean, it does happen to men. Hello most famously Milli Vanilli. Just so much more to women. So am I wrong for sort of enjoying a male going through it for a change …a little? haha.But seriously, I don’t know how I feel about that. Isn’t he sort of known for his voice? I never thought of him as a Milli Vanilli.
As far as Kate, I hope that we get to see that performance. And I hope we get to continue to see her and that she won’t just decide it’s just not worth it! Thank you for the kind words btw!
Hi Io and thanks again - as ever this was a really enjoyable video that had the twin advantages of having substance and galloping along at a good pace (not an easy trick to do).
I guess my first thoughts would be in relation to what you posed about what you might do next and all I would say is that quite a few for long term Kate Bush fans (like me) would want to you to do in depth analysis of every one of her album songs, singles, B sides, live performances, bootleg recordings, interviews and all the rest, to such an extent that you were on that carousel until by the time you eventually got off it, you were a withered shell of a person whose entire life had passed you by! But in truth my only advice would be that you have to do what actually pleases you, what you enjoy and find fulfilling - and there is a whole world of music etc out there. The second thing would be a bit more mundane - consider doing what in some way you personally find beneficial to you yourself: you have a wage to earn and life to live.
getting on to the more substantive points of the video and addressing the elephant in the room and the twin issues of the St Vincent comments and performance at RRHOF. On the latter, I didn't enjoy it at all and thought she looked and sounded completely overwhelmed it. On the former those conflicting comments have circulated for quite a while and I had known of them. my own gut feeling has always been that her comments to Pitchfork and her 'recent' discovery of Kate Bush is where the real misdirection lay, as something designed to try to neuter any suggestions that she had "copied" Kate. Although, of course you are absolutely correct to point out that her comments around 'The Sensual World' do sound like something of a stretch (although TSW is my own personal favourite KB album).
Your video does raise (and does it very well) the whole curse of the solo female singer/songwriter. it seems to me that sooner or later a solo female singer songwriter is going to be compared to Kate Bush and Joni Mitchel - which strikes me as very unfair, because very few can withstand comparisons to those two. I personally think that people like Sinead O'Connor, Alanis Morisette, Eivor, and Bjork all took the best approach. They were open about there admiration for Kate (and in Sinead's case, as well as her admiration for Kate, also her immense dislike for Joni Mitchel's music), but went on to make music that is unmistakably their own. It is not really the influence that counts but what we do with it. As the old comedy sketch makes clear, in the end we are all influenced by the first person to blow into a conch shell and first person to bang sticks against a fallen tree trunk.
Speaking of Bjork, she has spoken more than once about the treatment Kate Bush received from music journalists etc. One very interesting comment she made relates to Kate's 2005 album 'Aerial.' In that album Kate has a song called 'Mrs Bartolozzi' in which she sings about a housewife washing the laundry, and as she watches the clothes tumble and spin and intertwine in the washing machine, this great wave of longing is stirred within her about the passion and love and wonder she had felt in previous times, and she imagines the younger, freer, wilder, sheer undiluted passion that she had known. That song had drawn some comments that Kate had eventually succumbed in middle age to the inherent, idiosyncratic weirdness of her music to the extent she no longer connected with the wider world. Bjork pointed out the misogyny of this and that pervades much of the music industry. She said that the entire world seems to OK with a male performer singing about drugs, booze, and every woman he had ever slept with, but for a woman to sing of female longing and yearning is thought of as just too odd (and to my mind of course Bjork was correct). Oh, and it is a song you need to hear!
I think as well that Kate's comments down the years about influence etc make her influences hard to pin down. She did cover versions of Beatles songs in local pubs, before her first record was ever released - but she didn't ever really cite them as an influence in her early days, but did mention them later on in her career. She often cites Roxy Music, but doesn't really say much about T-Rex. She has mentioned her admiration for Billie Holiday and Tina Turner, but not by way of influence, and her music has never really seemed to me to have anything that relates to them. There is one comment that she made quite early in her career that I have always felt said a lot about her attitude. On one occasion she said:
“Every female you see at a piano is either Lynsey de Paul or Carole King [...] And most male music - not all of it, but the good stuff - really lays it on you. It really puts you against the wall. And that’s what I like to do. I’d like my music to intrude. Not many females succeed with that.”
It has always seemed to me that that comment makes a lot of sense, when it comes to her influences, but also her music collaborations (apart from the Trio Bulgarka and her wonderful collaborations with them, it is pretty much uniformly always male performers that she has turned to).
Oh, and by the way, Kate's voice on her latter albums? just take a listen to her albums "Aerial" and "50 Words for Snow" and be reassured. Chrissie Hynde attended Kate's 'Before the Dawn' concerts and speaking afterwards she said:
“I saw two of the shows. Absolutely breathtaking,” [...] “She has the perfect voice - her voice made people cry. And her presence, it was all there. She could have been doing it for the last 30 years every night. You wouldn’t have known the difference."
Thanks again. Very, very enjoyable.
Hey oh! Good to hear from you! You made some very interesting points. I hope I can remember everything as I’m commenting because I had a lot of thoughts. Firstly I really want to cover that song you’re talking about the one from Aeriel. I have a lot to say about that particular topic, and what Björk was talking about. I have a lot of topics I’m working on but if I can get around to it. Would you mind if I use that?
I absolutely agree about artist taking their own direction . I’m working on a video about a young artist that I really like. And I really hope she has that journey. She goes her own way like a Sinead, Alanis or Björk. But after this video, I realize it can really go either way. I feel a little sorry for the artists of today. They often end up focusing on other things that in reality, don’t matter. But I understand if you have hate coming from all direction that it can be hard to focus on what really matters. The music. And often for those who put their head down and make music a lot of them get forgotten. Because they’re not in the news. It’s a sad state of affairs
Also, I appreciate the kind words and understanding about the direction of my channel. UA-cam is always changing. Thankfully, my mind is flexible enough that I can change and still do things that I really like and I’m interested in. And not have to compromise But I was hoping you guys would understand that it might have to change how I do things. So that’s what I wanted to discuss with y’all. maybe we can come up with another way I can continue my kb journey.
@@popcornphilosopher Hi Io, I did reply to your question about you maybe using the Bjork - Mrs Bartolozzi comments, but as can happen with UA-cam, it fell of the comments list. But anyhow, the substance of what I replied was basically to say, yes, of course, go for it and sink your teeth into what she said and the issues she raised. Her original comments can be found on her sonic symbolism podcast and relates to "Post" and her comments are very interesting as she is talking about criticisms of herself and 'Post' which predates Kate's album 'Aerial' by about 10 years, but she uses Mrs Bartolozzi as almost an archetypal example of male criticisms of female artists. Now, "Aerial" was generally quite well received and was widely seen as a tremendous reappearance following a gap of 12 years since her previous album.. But there was a degree of dismissal about how some people reacted to it, and it is true that there is a shift in it in the way much of her music feels. I personally like 'Aerial' very much and think that it contains some of the most beautiful actual music of her career, especially on the second half of it the 'Sky of Honey' side. And it contains 'A Coral Room' which while not my favourite Kate Bush song is one that if somebody told me they thought it is her greatest song I wouldn't quibble about it at all.
Anyway - enjoy Bjork and Mrs Bartolozzi
Hi Io in relation to the Annie Clark/St Vincent Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction ceremony that you referred to in this video, you might be interested in the video interview she has given to NME in that last few days (from about 16:50 for around a three minutes in total) where she is asked about it and talks about it fairly briefly. She does also mention 'singing along' to Kate Bush in a way that does seem to suggest it as a thing that she has done almost as a matter of course (but without any date as to when that became a thing).
Oh, I’m so sorry I missed this comment! That’s interesting…. thanks for letting me know, but do you have the link I was trying to find it couldn’t find a recent interview.
@@popcornphilosopher Hi Io I did try to reply to you with a link to the interview but YT didn't seem to like it and wouldn't let it appear. But, if you were to search for nme st vincent all born screaming kate bush then it should be near the top of the results. it is a quite interesting interview.
Without wanting to raise the whole Tori Amos/Kate Bush influence thingamabob again, I do think you might enjoy a read at an interview Tori gave to "Vulture" in 2017 where I think we get some interesting thoughts about Tori, influences, Kate etc. I think that interview is fairly definite in showing that she regards Kate Bush as being important to the extent of being an exemplar, particularly a female exemplar , someone who's music matters, without just trying to replicate what she did, whereas she saw the way that how Robert Plant performed as something to strive for. A search along the lines of vulture Tori Amos kate bush matters should bring it up quite near the top of results.
I remember when Kate Bush released the promotional photo for the live shows, Before the Dawn (the one where she wears a life jacket), some journalists had called this offensive and linked it to her cashing in on a contemporaneous boating / drowning accident. She even had to make a statement about it on her website. (Pretty sure it was a Daily Mail / Mail Online story - no surprise!)
That’s so ridiculous. But Yes, pretty typical for daily mail
Regarding "The Dreaming" album as far as I know the back cover is no different between countries. So I don't know what St. VIncent meant by her comments about the back cover.
Yes! I thought so!
THIS VIDEO WAS AMAZING!! I love how you stood up for all those women, YOU ROCK GIRL!
That means so much to me. This video was very important to me! I’m so glad you liked it.
@@popcornphilosopher This video only makes me even more sure you’re probably THE most overlooked channel on youtube rn! You got the charisma, the knowledge and the dedication to do a full deepdive: the whole package! Can’t wait to tell people in a few years I was one of the early followers of THE popcornphilosopher hehe :D
@@Cloudbuster. what an absolutely wonderfully kind of thing to say! Thanks for making my day!
You've presented a most evocative docu-commentary, from different perspectives. Of course female artists often get unfairly criticised (there are still way too few of them who sadly in today's world, deservedly achieve true critical and commercial success!). Insightful, compassionate and philosophical you are! Thank you!
Thank you that means a lot to me! I took great pains to do that but I was still nervous that It wouldn’t come across that way or fairly
What an interesting find. The Emma Madden thing I hadn’t heard about that I had heard about the Kate Bush lie and kind of brushed it off as no big deal, but I get your point. The article, however that’s strange. I still like to listen to St. Vincent though maybe I should just stick to that.
Yes, exactly this! That’s exactly how I feel. In reality it’s the music that matters!
Yes, back in the day, Tori Amos was considered by some derivative and sub-par to Kate Bush. From some of her tunes I heard back then, it sounded like legit criticism.
Oh, I don’t agree. But I respect your opinion. I really love Tori Amos early music. But I grew up on it. My aunt had all her records. I’m pretty sure she was an influence, but she forged her own. Way
If I have to pick the best Kate Bush cover, you can't go wrong with Placebo's take on "Running Up That Hill," which is not so much a cover but a reinvention. In Placebo's hands it becomes a dissociated isolated cry for empathy and understanding while struggling/fighting to maintain an identity and coexist in the modern world. It's hard not to be devastated by Brian Molko's restrained vocals. And their music video... goddamn... 😢
(Twenty odd years later and their cover has become more relevant than ever...)
ua-cam.com/video/d-mYX0qKkB8/v-deo.htmlsi=ekvKGuBRhj_H_Q34
Oh, I remember Placebo. It’s been long time since I’ve heard them! I didn’t even know they did it running up that hill cover! Thanks for sharing!
I appreciate the way your stories develop, and the way you give air to sides of the story that probably don't deserve much consideration, but get it anyway.
I have been a fan of Kate Bush since 1987/88... I'm very selective about what I watch in the way of interviews, especially when in the early days there was not much available (if like me you got interested after the whole story, then you'd missed all the interviews when she was huge news and they were first aired). One of the first moments I remember was I bought a bootleg CD of an interview in Tokyo... I thought she sounded weak, vapid, and unimportant. I was horrified.
Until very recently there were very few promotion moments I could reconcile with the figure of Kate Bush in my head who is the genius creator of the most wonderful explorations into music as sound and story.
But I have ventured. I've slowly had to come to realise that artists who choose to create in one medium do so because that's where they feel comfortable, that's where they can control what's being said. It's unfair to expect artists to interview well, and it undersells the art of the interviewer to call two stools and a list of questions an interview.
I have, of course, now seen Kate Bush in early interviews where she does hold her own, and shows enormous depth of understanding while effortlessly and lithely supporting the right to be on a journey and excited of all the things that might come.
I've also had to consider that you don't have to like everyone who's art you admire. But in this case I've completely come around.
I also think part of my reaction was that I feared hearing criticism (from my friends) - or I couldn't allow her to be criticised.
Maybe what took so long for me was the idea that a person who let's herself be seen as meek can create so ferociously. (The other way round)
Anyway, I came here to say that my read of St Vincent is that she's nervous people will find out there's not much to her ideas... I was going to point to an early interview with KB by comparison where she is so much more self aware than St Vincent, so self confident and able to be easy.... (and thusly just bettererer) but in the way I've opened this I'm sort of arguing against myself and now I'm crying Leave Vitney Alone!
... So she's abrasive in interviews. So she's had the life she's had and not someones much worse off than hers. Her father's crimes weren't horrible enough, or he's a weak man or something. That's not why we have artists. We should only judge them through the things they make for us to see.
And please, just a bit of pity for those who know their opportunity to make at a level that offers rewarding process for them means having to show all the right signs, give all the right markers, and please every two-bit parasite along the way lest their career be truncated.
And to the point of the first part of the interview, it all fits.
I was late to the party. I've only just got the dreaming.
and
I got the sensual world as a teenager. About nine years ago. I feel like I totally missed an era.. So yeah, definitely late to the party with Kate.
Is plausible.
Ha ha Leave Vitney alone made me laugh. I see what you mean, but I wonder if many current artists instead of creating great work wind up defending themselves/Controlung the narrative. It ends up being about everything, but the music. I’ve seen so many that have had such a promising start.
even though Kate Bush has had a lot of scrutiny since the beginning. I do think it’s worse now because there’s so many more opinions being voiced. But really, it’s hard to say for sure. Either way I had a lot more empathy than I started the video with.
Kate Bush had a lot of sexist, creepy interviews in the 70s and 80s.
Oh yes, someone sent me a link to a really terrible interview from the 70’s
Thank you, for your detailed analysis and your trip down this particular rabbit hole! 😁
I certainly do think that female artists are held to very much higher standards than their male counter parrs. I mean fenale artists aren't meant to ugly or unattractive.
Regarding St Vincent's performance during Kate's induction which I stayed up for in the early hours in the UK, as it was streamed on Disney +, I did think that something was a little off.
It would have brilliant if Kate had made an appearance, but she is known for having a fear of flying and I do wonder if wherher she was expected to perform live, if she did attend in person.
So, bearing the above in mind, it would hwve been nice if she had recorded a short video expressing her thanks, that would be broadcast on the night.
BTW regarding the over weight comments the Daily Mail and Daily Express are disgusting right wing UK newspapers.
I waa very lucky to get tickets for Kate's last "Before The Dawn" performance, I was a bit concerned whether Kate's vouce would stand up after 21 previous performances, but Kate was just brilliant and the concert was an amazing unbelievable experience.
So I don't think that Kate's voice has gotten worse with age, far from it.
As for Kate's appearances, I managed to find two acceptance speeches that she made:
📍South Bank Sky Arts Pop.Award 2012
📍Editor's Award Evening Standard 2014 - for her "Before The Dawn" concerts.
In terms of Radio Interviews
📍BBC Radio 6 - November 2016 - I believe this was brosdcast around the time of the release of her live akbum of "Before The Dawn"
📍BBC Radio 4 Women’s Hour interview 22th June 2022 - about the success of RUTH as a result of Stranger Things.
If you need links to them, then please let me know.
All the very best of wishes.
Thank you,! !I definitely would like those. When I researched it, I read a bunch of things. that said that there hasn’t been a public picture/video since 2014. It would make me so much more happy! I would be infinitely sad, if we no longer got to see Kate anymore! Because of someone’s unkind comments. Although I could hardly blame her I’ve been receiving end of those kind of comments that made me feel
bad. But anyway I hope all is well in the UK!
@@popcornphilosopher
BBC Radio 4 Women’s Hour 2022
ua-cam.com/video/LZ_PbcYOiq4/v-deo.htmlsi=n9Ri7GbtJPuE7mIi
BBC Radio 6 2016
ua-cam.com/video/dd0V1tONWxQ/v-deo.htmlsi=jD26chCgQ5_6N2T0
Editor's Award Evening Standard 2014
ua-cam.com/video/BXw7zox20dA/v-deo.htmlsi=YtcBFBgUgbf7y9Oj
South Bank Sky Arts Pop Award 2012
ua-cam.com/video/TRal_VAdrCU/v-deo.htmlsi=Gaz325214qxOLYF_
@popcornphilosopher
I tried to put links in a reply to you. However, even though the reply was successfully posted, bloody UA-cam then removed it... I just hate it when it does that...
Ok, I've added them as a comment to your most recent community post and I've chopped off the 1st part of URL to the UA-cam videos.
BTW, I'm sure that Bjork mentioned quite a while ago that "The Dreaming" was one of her favourite albums.
Firstly, thank you very much for the effort you have put into this analysis. I enjoy your style and how you focus on detail. It really makes your content captivating for me.
I'm old enough to remember when Kate Bush broke through in the UK. I can tell you the popular press hated her. They didn't understand her and couldn't pigeon hole her. This meant that to them she was a crazy weirdo, strange and to be honest, the establishment in the popular music industry didn't like her at all. Im not talking about the musicians im talking about the journalists, the promotors and agents etc. They were comfortable with what they understand and could push out for people to consume.
Regarding all the other stuff about judging artists, its just opinions and opinions are like a**holes, everybody has one. I was very surprised that some of these artists are engaging in the fight with the people they call ' haters'. Seriously, who cares? My advice for all those female artists is to take a leaf out of Kate's book. Be yourself, be confident in your own ability, don't engage in tittle tattle and get on with doing your own thing.
Even to this day if you hear any report about Kate she is always referred to as a recluse or even a strange recluse.
With respect to the R&R hall of fame my deep suspicion is that Kate doesn't care. She will always be polite and grateful, because she is such a nice person. She's done it, she's got nothing to prove, she doesn't need adulation.
Once again thank you for your production and looking forward to finding out more of your Kate Bush journey.
Hey there thank you so much! Took a long time to put together but I’m glad I finally finished! Re: the haters comment I did cringe a little. But I kinda get it. There’s just so many more places for people to say horrible things. It’s a lot harder to ignore it today. Especially since the promotion of an artist is often up to the artist through social media. And can mean whether they can continue making music. It’s crazy how pervasive it is the tearing down especially a female artists. If I didn’t see it before I see it everywhere now. I’m still on the fence about St. Vincent but I definitely have more than I did when I started. I just hated to hear some of the things that were being said even about Kate Bush.(who is wonderful and deserves respect). I truly hope it is that she just doesn’t care. That would make my heart happy.
Hi Io .. I just re-watched this video, as I was a bit distracted the first time I saw it, and didn't really take it all in .. Lots of interesting stuff in it, as always .. But I thought I'd comment on the remarks made by that person you clearly were not impressed by, in which they criticised "old Kate's" voice and body.
While I agree with you that the fat shaming and attacks on the sound of her later period voice were way over the top, I will agree with them on one thing .. Although I regard myself as a huge Kate fan, I too could easily live without having heard anything past "The Red Shoes" album .. Although there are many moments that I liked in the tracks from "Aeriel" and onwards, to me those albums were not the stuff that I connected with like before.
It wasn't her voice .. It was the material .. It was clearly sophisticated and thoughtful, but in general the melodic content was far less satisfying than what I was used to, and I didn't find myself singing many of the songs in my head, like I once did all the time with her music .. Maybe that's more a reflection on me than on Kate, but that's how I feel .. However, she will always be one of my all-time favourite artists, and I love her work dearly.
Cheers, and I hope you are well and happy, my friend .. Wayne
Tori Amos was compared to Kate Bush because they are both piano players who are great. She never had a problem that I heard but I stopped following her after the 1st four albums
Those first four albums really were great though weren’t they?
Very strange... I've just posted a very long comment about this video and it seems to have strangely disapeared allthough it was a nice comment. I noticed this as I was trying to add another comment to the first one. I won't try to re-write the first one but here's the second one:
And concerning Kate Bush legacy or influence on other female pop artists, for me there are only 3 other female artists who can seriously be compared (in some ways) to Kate Bush without being accused of being copy cats because their respective works are also very personal and original: Tori Amos, Björk and Joanna Newsom. But they all have different goals and personalities which is a nice thing and implies much respect for all of them.🙂
Oh, and Cocteau Twins Elizabeth Fraser too, in some other ways. But I always considered Liz being even a better vocalist than KB, so if you don't know her, you should listen to her work with Cocteau Twins or collaborations with other artists like Massive Attack.
I’m sorry about your first comment ! That happens to me sometimes and it’s very frustrating! I actually had plans to check out Cocteau Twins on the channel especially when they released the remastered albums. Eventually wanna get around to that because I have enjoyed everything I’ve heard!
I agree about your list, but I would definitely add Caroline Polachek to that list. As I said, in the video, I think she’s going to continue to make interesting work.
Kathleen Hanna barely finding out about the Slits!
Good point!
Rest easy my Dear……you are uncanny in your ability to project your sincerity and earnestness. Do you wonder sometimes if your curiosity crosses a line? Well of course it does…..join the human race. We are all guilty of morbid curiosity. Do you wonder that some of us might ask you to mind your own business? It would would be a surprise if you said “no” because it is so clearly evident that you are aware of the audiences hypersensitivity. You deserve a “thank you” for that. You never seek to offend. But beyond that, you actively search for different voices…..even for those which will likely contradict your predictions. The balance you search for and crave…..well, it’s actually quite lovely. Although it may at times lead to indecision it’s a road you cannot resist traveling upon. It’s your infrastructure. The way you’re wired. You can judge the individual apart from the action. You can love someone but hate the things they do. The two aren’t intertwined. Not everyone has the sensitivity to look at what inspired the crime and therefore gain a greater understanding of the criminal. But you do. So rest easy, Dear Heart. Your altruism…..your innate fairness…..your tempering of recompense….and your sympathy. These will always carry you to the high road. Some will judge you. Pay them heed. They are there for a reason. But remain true to you. Stay lifted and live your life well. .
Wow, thank you so much for your well considered comment! So very true and kind. That’s pretty incredible you’re able to see that. And yes I definitely am indecisive at times haha! Honestly, a lot of the people I talked about in this video can probably be in this category too. It’s something very easily misunderstood. That’s why I had some empathy for St. Vincent because I kinda get it But, thanks again and a very wonderful evening to you!
What a journey you went on! Gave me a lot to think about!
That’s what I was hoping for! It gave me a lot to think about making it
They are two different types of albums couldn't get them mixed up
I actually haven’t heard them both yet! I still know they’re very different
@popcornphilosopher I heard Kate Bush for the first time in 1978.or 79..on SNL...never heard anything like her before...the only woman that reminded me of her a little around that time was Nina hagen.and line lovich...
@@JosephCampos-g9j I absolutely love Lene Lovich! Nina Hagen too but I especially connect to Lene Lovich’s music. I wish she would get rediscovered.
Very interesting,thank you for going down the 🐰 Hole..
Kimberly! Good to hear from you! Of course yes, this was such a strange story!
Very nice video
Hey Certified thanks!
Much ado about nothing
Ok
Your gross exaggerations of the very trivial complaints concerning SAINT VINCENT, clearly designed for your own personal promotion, make you every bit as guilty of the very misogyny that you so rightfully decry in others!
I partially agree… that’s one of the points I make in the video. I don’t think I would’ve even known about this had this been a male artist. People nitpick at everything female artists do. And you don’t even notice the double standard because we’re so used to it. I’m guilty of it too. Because I participated in it. At first I thought it was silly. little story. But it really opened my eyes and I was hoping it would open others too.
@@popcornphilosopher ANNIE CLARK (SAINT VINCENT) is one of the most innovative guitarists in the world today, and yet I've had to defend her playing for years from male chauvinist pigs on the internet who blatantly proclaim that women are inferior musicians to men! They don't even try to hide their misogyny! And now they're starting in on the three Mexican sisters in THE WARNING, who have literally been playing ever since they could walk up to their instruments and are so enjoyable to watch!! And they also go after women characters in super-hero movies, especially BRIE LARSON, but others, as well! I come from the Haudenosaunee culture where women have been powerful and respected for centuries, and the colonial patriarchy just sickens me!
Wow she was horrible sad they could of picked some one better..maybe a man would of changed it up a little
Really changing it up is the only good way of doing a cover…
Who cares?
I do!
I think you're absolutely CORRECT about female artists feeling they need to cite MALE artists for inspiration, ESPECIALLY early on.
I mean look at Aurora. She said she was a huge fan of Florence + the Machine and that she was an inspiration to.... not thinking they had a single thing in common musically and sort of being insulting with how quickly she shoots it down and the comments she likes. she only lists Bjork as a female influence, I'm guessing because the older the artist is it makes it somehow more respectable and paying homage at least.
But I will say, I think Tori was influenced by Kate Bush. I genuinely do think Tori BECAME her own artist and had elements of herself in her earlier work, but there are clear times where she was absolutely influenced by Kate and we see this not just in songs but her mimicking things Kate has done. Like , the posing in the wooden box? The sepia toned image in the wheat background and their arms out. Whether Tori was aware or not, someone was mimicking Kate Bush a bit in her marketing a pinch. I don't think she defined her entire career off of it by any means though or that it defines her.
I will say I also heard that. . . . and this is absolutely heresay . . . I've just seen it in comments in a few places that Florence was actually ASKED to do the performance, but was having passport or VISA issues or something? It's probably a lie given how often Florence performs in the US without an issue but . . . I thought Florence and several others would've been a far better fit than Annie for a Kate Bush performance.
As I recall, Bat for Lashes was also in that documentary and I believe Lorde's Melodrama to be more Kate inspired than anything Annie has ever done. Not saying Annie has done things of lesser value, but just the inspiration isn't' clear to me. And of course Caroline would've been a fantastic choice as well.
Kate was deserving of far more than a singular performance.
Also IT IS so hard for female artists to be taken seriously. They are undermined at every turn. I mean look at what is going on with The Last Dinner Party. People keep on saying they're an industry plant, which even if they were that just means they were seen for their talent and the industry wanted to give them a platform and the nourishment to grow the best they could?
Would that even have been said about a male fronted band? Women have been so used to having to expect in the industry to be replaced or look at other women as competition, which is why while she isn't the first I've been so proud as a fan of Florence Welch's that she's working with other women in the industry. That she collaborated with Gaga ( who I don't support but still ) and Taylor ( soon ) and is choosing FEMALE acts as her opening acts. Shes' chosen Billie Eilish, Maggie Rogers, King Princess and Ethel Cain AND The Last Dinner Party and MORE as her supporting acts. ALL of them female.
Wow, you made some incredible points here!
I wonder if people tell these ladies to not do this. or if they just see the generation before get compared so they avoid saying a female artist like the plague?
Yes, I wanted to bring up Aurora…..I wanted to bring up a lot of artists. But the video already took so many side turns! It seems like when these ladies have a body of work of their own, maybe they have more confidence and can admit it. There’s nothing wrong with influence. Another thing I wanted to bring up is that the Beatles and The Beach Boys cite each other as influences for their biggest, turning point albums. And it’s more a fun fact than an accusation.
That’s fascinating about Florence! That would’ve been a great choice! I don’t think St. Vincent is bad. I think she had an off night. But that is weird because I actually saw Florence’s first American show. I forget when it was I think it was like 2008/9. Medium sized club. she wasn’t having issues then. so that makes no sense that she would be having them now.
That was another thing I was going to bring up in my video is the industry plant thing. Or even when people say, someone is manufactured, Because if thats true. They would’ve said Kate Bush is an industry plant and manufactured. Because they developed her as an artist when she was signed at 13. Which, of course is ridiculous and stupid. But it’s much like Billie Eilish. Anyway, thank you for a great comment.!
@@popcornphilosopher Oh wow, thanks for reading and even replying! I know that was long winded AF. I get sucked into writing a string of thoughts sometimes. :)
Summarizing is NOT my expertise!
Unfortunately the Kate Bush performance originally being Florence is probably untrue and just fans writing fanfiction ha. But I would've loved it, I thought she made more sense.
and OF COURSE I know St. Vincent is talented. Absolutely she is. I just think Annie would be more suited for other Kate songs.
But they just want to keep pushing Running Up That Hill! Which I think Florence would've been a better choice for, so I kind of believe it.
But thanks for replying! I loved your video, I was like " I've been thinking about these topics " and it scratched the itch in my brain.
I watched a few of your videos and was happy to find this little niche on the internet. :)