SPOILER for those who might not know otherwise: (This video includes HUMOR! Don't take it too seriously) I thank the people on my server who helped me unearth this evidence! Here's the discussion on my server where we brainstormed ideas: discord.com/channels/870925179570753616/1095405937172414634 EDIT: 14:30 This bit is about WOTC's "explanation" that it tried to revoke the OGL to support homebrewers and content creators, not "major corporations to use for their own commercial and promotional purpose," claiming to protect creators when actually trying to steal from them. www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1423-an-update-on-the-open-game-license-ogl
There's a portal gun in Pathfinder 2e that's basically just the hither tither staff. It's called the Mountebank's Passage and it has a range of 120 feet, which seems fairly in line with the movie.
Loved the tongue in cheek statements of fact. 1.2 In the condition you reference, though the way Pathfinder does it is a player option, yes, but it's possible in D&D too, just not something a player can choose to do automatically. A series of successful saving throws, or other characters close by making skill checks. However, the condition the character was in was specifically called out as one that neither of the rule sets had a way to prevent, leading to DM/GM fiat and the use of a very powerful rare and single-use magic item.
Yes.. but I was under the impression that being hit by that rock, it think it was, and she lost concentration. Otherwise I think the other 9 make sense.
The check argument for Edgin is iffy in either system especially for a meta mechanic being depicted on screen in a film. The druid can't turn into an Owlbear at all in PF2E (no polymorphing spell or feature allows for that form), and in D&D only using that games version of the Shapechange spell, which wouldn't be until 17th level, which is way higher than any of the characters in the movie are. That is also the only spell in either system that allows for swapping between forms without using the ability again or casting another spell, none of which is depicted by Doric (the druid's name). Also in PF2E the barbarian would not only get hit, but hit ALOT because barbarians, especially when raging, have a penalty to AC. In either case, in the movie at no point do they overtly depict her going into a Rage, but her untouchable nature could just as easily be abstracting her not taking any damage, which is definitely more the purview of a D&D barbarian with their resistances. Tesseract Tunnel absolutely is the closest analogue to the Portal gun staff depicted in the movie, nothing in D&D works quite like that. On Xenk, the paladin's Daggersword, it doesn't strictly fit the limitations of a shifting rune, and it has been officially canonized in the lore of D&D both on D&D beyond and on the Forgotten Realms wiki. The interruption is actually precisely from D&D, her concentration was interrupted, not her spell, as she had already successfully cast it, this is the least Pathfinder example in your list. Precisely the rule ignored in the previous point is made in the next point, about the red wizard concentrating on 2 spells at once (this analysis is correct). She wasn't just flanked but repeatedly grappled and had to break out. Misty step exists in D&D, there is nothing like it in PF2E in the first place, so spell slots aren't an issue, when there is no spell in PF2E that even works as depicted in the first place. The closes analogue is dimension door, which is a 4th level spell in both systems, whereas Misty Step could come from several sources in D&D and be a nearly free cast for the wizard. Its more likely she simply didn't cast it again, not that she couldn't. A character not dying is a signature issue in D&D over Pathfinder, but a hero point wasn't spent, an item was used (being vague for the same reasons you were in the video). So in that list, only concentrating on two spells, and the hither tither staff are solid arguments, and there is potential counters to that; She had the dual-focused feat from the Tal'Dorei Campaign setting book (many tables allow feats, items and spells from other settings). The Hither Tither staff was a custom item the GM created for the movie, so was the Helmet of Disjunction, also there is no challenge by default in either system for either attuning or investiture of magic items, which was depicted in the film. Additionally, the bard didn't cast any spells either, which isn't accurate to either D&D or PF2E. So I think a fairer argument is that the film wasn't faithful to the rules of any game, it was a depiction not a 1 for 1 analogue. Fun list though.
OK, this was awesome! Dang, I got the bundle earlier this year, and I only read a little of it. I need to catch up! I feel good about Pathfinder but there is so much in the magic that I don't know... that's the part thats holding me back. OMG Didn't see that ending coming! THANK YOU!!!!
Great to see some fun content from you! A little levity is always nice, when contrasted with the more serious analysis and rules discussions. Hope this video gets some good traction in the algorithm!
3:28 - Hold up; hit points are not blood points. Most of them represent the ability to avoid serious physical damage. If she deflects or dodges an attack, she just lost HP. Much like in Magic the Gathering, it’s only the last hit that matters. Everything up to that point represents stamina, fatigue, pain tolerance, and luck running out. The real wound significant enough to require special treatment is the one which incapacitates you.
@Keovar it's an example of one of the many many situations where trying to wave HP away as luck or Stamina just falls apart. It had always been supernatural levels of endurance and the game has always treated it as such, even if it likes to pretend otherwise.
@@wichhouse - Channeling energy into the target, to restore stamina, luck, and all the other ephemeral stuff. You could say that your starting HP, or in PF2e your ancestry HP are actual physical damage, but all HP can’t be literal physical damage because you’re not growing more blood or body, you’re getting better at avoiding hits that would have killed you as a regular civilian. The D&D rule letting you recover some HP on a short rest (or even in the middle of combat if you’re a fighter) only makes sense if HP are mostly intangible. PF2e says HP are “physical punishment” and doesn’t have the same sorts of fast nonmagical healing as D&D5e, so maybe it’s more literal. If these were video games or if people were much better at math, we could express HP as a percentage and visualize it as a red bar, like in an MMO. For me, it still makes more sense as nonserious stuff like fatigue and bruising up until the hit that drops you. BTW, the terms Armor Class and Hit Points apparently came from naval ships and miniatures games based on them.
Another point you could have made was the tiefling's appearance. In 4e, they changed tieflings to all have the red skin and big horn look, 5e made them have all kinds of weird skin colors, but in pathfinder they had more subtle demonic features to the point that some just looked human with a constant smell of brimstone about them. And to just throw this out there, a lot of the mechanical side of this could be argued is based on 3.5 instead of 5e
You missed that that Edgin can't really be represented by a Bard in either 5e or 2e as he isn't throwing spells around. 5e doesn't really have a suitable class option since they decided 90% of adventurers use magic, even most fighters and rogues. 2e scoundrel rogue does him a lot of justice though!
7:39 Tangent: I'm pretty sure that was a different concentration spell: (Otiluke's) Resilient Sphere. Though it contained two creatures which isn't RAW.
The reason why WoTC didn't mention Pathfinder 2e is simple. Pathfinder 2e use(d) the OGL and at time of making the film they were planing to release OGL 1.1, so there was no need to mention them. Sadly they didn't fix the mistake after they backpeadled... or maybe they are still trying to release it
To be fair to D&D, they could have been using 3.5 ish rules. That'd handle flanking, the shapeshifting, attacks of opportunity, Vancian casting, interrupted spellcasting and possibly the staff and size changing blade (I'm not gonna pretend to know the full item list in 3.5). The largest problem would be 3.5 rules in what appears to be a post Spellplague Forgotten Realms when WotC in their infinite wisdom used the Spellplague to end 3.5 and usher in 4E rules.
@@MatthewCenance pretty sure that Szass Tam turning the Zhulkirs into undead puppets was post 1385, also the years leading up to the Spellplague had Nasher Alagondar as the Lord of Neverwinter and a decently potent force of Cloaktower mages serving the city. That said, I'm not entirely familiar with the five to six years leading into the Spellplague and I haven't looked in depth at a lot of the Realms in years so I could be mistaken.
Ok I know this is just in good fun, but I do have few specific objections. Given the name of the channel, I assume you don’t mind. You mentioned that the Druid could wild shape up to 6 times in Pathfinder, which is more than the 2 from D&D, but not as many as we saw in the big wild shape sequence of the movie, so Pathfinder is _also_ not viable here. Point 8 I think misses some of the nuance of what "hp" actually means, because it’s an abstraction of many things, so a "hit" in the game can be narrated as a near miss that they had to go off balance to avoid, or a miss could be narrated as a hit that didn’t actually hurt them at all due to armour. I have no problem with the film in this respect because it was just an accurate portrayal of what the d20 system underlying both D&D & Pathfinder assumes. 6 is pretty clearly a special item. We see it. The sword doesn’t magically transform like it would from a rune. It’s a clever mechanical creation. A home brew creation the DM gave to their pet DMPC. For 1.2, I might be misremembering and just thinking of a different moment from the one you are. But the moment I’m thinking of is pretty explicitly a revival through a powerful spell stored in a magic item. Not hero points.
Truly in the spirit of this channel! My memory was that she wildshaped 5-6 times, and the official D&D statblock says she can wildshape 5 times per day. So I think it checks out.
In regards to a PF2E druid you can use a combination of spell slots and focus point expenditure for an even greater number of wild shapes than she uses, assuming a certain level. Of course, the trouble with PF2e's wild shape is that it requires reverting back to your true form between casting because you can't cast as a polymorphed animal. 😊
Alternate #1 They originally used Pathfinder art on their movie poster. (Intellect devourer) Maybe this was written as a pathfinder movie and Hasbro bought it first? (okay I know that wrong look at all the proper place names.)
had a balast listening to this, idk about the shifting rune line of tought, but all was really neat Also, character building is something i enjoy a lot, so seeing that it will be done for the cast of the movie give me joy
I am a Pathfinder 2e GM and enjoyed the movie immensely because it took me back to all those places I have grown up with in AD&D - the Forgotten Realms will always stay in my heart even I am travelling with my group on Golarion meanwhile. Never the less I followed your logic and have to say yes, it is definitely a Pathfinder movie :)
As mainly a 3.x player.... I have to admit I walked out of the movie feeling like the experience was far closer to my experience with 3.5/PF1e than with 5e, even though I have played a fair amount of the latter with various groups as well. It is most definitely a TTRPG movie. But I'm honestly not sure if it's a 5e movie at all. (A small thing that stood out to me as we have a Paladin in our 3.5 campaign that's been going for over 4 years now:he paladin in the movie apparently had unlimited at-will use of Detect Evil...? Though they did flavour it with 5e's Divine Sense's "evil smells bad" bit, but that's flavour, mechanically it stood out to me as the 3.5 version of the class.)
With all the spells flying about on screen, I had pegged Sofina as level 17+, since she cast Time Stop and Meteor Swarm, and the PCs as level 10+. The Paladin was at least level 15, since he had the Undying Sentinel feature of Oath of the Ancients (he's been alive since the war around 100 years ago when he took possession of the McGuffin), and could "talk" to animals. That is why he wasn't allowed to tag along to defeat the Big Bad. I found it laughable that DNDBeyond has Sofina pegged at CR 15 (close, but stretching it), the Paladin at level 10, and the PCs as level 5!!
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG thank so much, wanted to paste it to my group. Here's video idea for you, characters in netflix' Shadow and Bone as pathfinder classes :D
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG She kind of did once she got a hold of Sofina. Plus it was her sling shot that broke Sofina's concentration on the animated Dragon.
Yeah. You're joking, but the movie doesn't credit Dave Arneson or Gary Gygax as the creators of D&D. In fact they only credit Hasbro in a way that can be interpreted as them saying Hasbro made D&D. This why I'll never watch this movie or spend a single penny on it's tie-in merchandise.
I'm going to argue that a barbarian never getting hit is closer to 5e because I have seen so many barbarian get an insane AC from level 1 that makes them nigh untouchable. Never seen someone break PF that hard
I think these are generally really good reasons. I think the sphere is otiluke's resilient sphere, not aqueous and I don't think otiluke requires concentration
For #3, are you saying that Simon had time stop prepared? Because that's the only way he'd be able to counter that in pf2. It seems much more likely he just didn't think he'd be able to make the counter spell roll + wouldn't have a high enough slot to automatically succeed
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Oh, right, that could work too. The other points are pretty good (especially 1), 3 + 7 just seemed like they used stuff that was decently explainable with 5e mechanics.
The best speed you can reach is 85 feet? Also, I haven't seen the movie yet, but real dnd has passwall, dimension door, and other similar spells plus rules for creating new magic items not in the book. Has rules for making new spells too, though vague.
I knew they accidently used the intellect devourer art of pathfinder on the movie poster, but I did not realised they used the size of them too... (5e should be tiny, but they were closer to small size without question)
My purple dragon night took the mage slither feet. The 1st game that I played him in with that beat I was adventuring with another spellcaster and they cast fog cloud during a combat with a bunch of wizards and I was unable to use match later feet because I couldn't see. That totally take me off. Lol "mage slayer"
In DnD 5th edition, a character who is dying can roll a gnat 20 on their diarol and they will gain a hit point and be backup and running. That is not a "DnD rule fail."
Savage Worlds is heavily focused on using a basic set of powers that are flavored to match a setting. A sight boosting power could be simple magic that boosts clarity of vision, or you calling on a spirit animal and gaining their advanced vision like BraveStarr, or your head suddenly turning into a hawk with enhanced vision. Or for higher tech games it could be some strange tech overlayed on your eyes, or a potion made by a chemical alchemist that grants better vision for a little while. The flavor for that power is called a "trapping" and trappings are chosen with cooperation with the game master to match your character's concept as well as the GM's setting.
0:26 sorry, I’m just really distracted by that chart of the evolution of D&D and related games. I just spent 30 minutes double-checking my recollections to make sure it wasn’t me, and confirmed that it’s the chart that is off. Short version: those “spiritual successor” designations don’t make any sense, and Spycraft is based on D&D3E and Star Wars D20 and has no real connection to D20 Modern. Also, why isn’t Star Wars D20 on this chart? Or, if this is solely about D&D and D&D-like RPGs, why is M&MM on the chart but True20/Blue Rose, Arcana Unearthed/Evolved, Iron Heroes, and Midnight aren’t?
*Wrong* Spycraft isn't based on D20 Modern. It's based on D&D3E and Star Wars D20. It was developed before D20 Modern, and doesn't share any of the rules components of D20 Modern that aren't found in D&D3E (like the basic stat-centered classes) and where Spycraft differs from D&D3E, it also differs from D20 Modern (Spycraft uses wounds/vitality, very similarly to Star Wars D20; D20 Modern uses hit points, just like D&D3E). Spycraft also says, right on the back cover, "Requires the use of the Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook, Third Edition", not the statement that later games made-those that came after D20 Modern was published-that they required the D&D PH orD20 Modern. *Debatable* D&D5E is much more in line with AD&D2 than it is with any edition of Basic D&D. Pathfinder is much more in line with D&D3.5E than it is with AD&D. Pathfinder 2 is closer to D&D3E than to AD&D2, but has some definite aspects of AD&D (most notably in how spell prep works). So the "spiritual successor" designations are...dubious. They only make sense in the context of comparing those two games (D&D5E and Pathfinder 1st ed) to each other, not to either BECMI D&D or AD&D[2]. If Pathfinder didn't exist, nobody would be saying that D&D5E is specifically drawing on BECMI D&D (as opposed to AD&D or D&D3E). And while I can see an argument for Pathfinder 2 differing from D&D3 precisely by calling back to AD&D in a few ways, I can't see an argument for Pathfinder 1 being likened to any of the D&D editions but D&D3.5E. Also, drawing a straight line from AD&D2 to Player's Option to D&D3E is an argument I'd need someone to lay out for me. Because I just don't see it. In terms of chronology, yes, that's what happened. But in terms of rules evolution, I can't think of anything introduced in Player's Option that ended up in the core rules of D&D3E. Oh, wait, I just remembered one: Combat & Tactics I think was the first version of D&D to use a combat grid. Every edition before then had assumed the use of graph paper for maps, but had measured movement and combat positioning and so on with “scale inches”, feet, or just subjectively, rather than in grid increments. *Odd* The diagram's layout seems to be implying evolution/improvement in some cases, and chronology in others, and neither in still others. Any of those layouts would make sense, but kinda mixing them all together is confusing. Why is B/X Companion connected to Expert D&D, but up above BECMI D&D BECMI? Why is For Gold & Glory not above AD&D2? And so on. The lines also don't seem to indicate similarity or strength of connection, just the existence of the connection. So a longer line doesn't mean "more differences" or "more change". Which is fine, I guess, but a missed opportunity. And leaves the question of why they aren't all the same length, if they have no semantic meaning? Also, why isn’t Star Wars D20 on this chart? Or, if this is solely about D&D and D&D-like RPGs, why is M&MM on the chart but True20/Blue Rose, Arcana Unearthed/Evolved, Iron Heroes, and Midnight aren’t? Even if the only reason that Spycraft is here is because it led to FantasyCraft, Star Wars D20 should be here because it contributed to Spycraft. (I suspect Star Wars D20’s omission is easily explained: the chart’s author put D20 Modern where they should’ve put Star Wars D20, due to ignorance.)
I think you watched a different movie from me?? The blind diplomacy role makes sense, but I didn't see a watery sphere. It was more a glass sphere or globe of invulnerability maybe? The paladin's weapon seemed to be a sword with a dagger in the hilt and some kind of magic to launch the sword blade off of the dagger within.
SPOILER for those who might not know otherwise:
(This video includes HUMOR! Don't take it too seriously)
I thank the people on my server who helped me unearth this evidence! Here's the discussion on my server where we brainstormed ideas: discord.com/channels/870925179570753616/1095405937172414634
EDIT: 14:30 This bit is about WOTC's "explanation" that it tried to revoke the OGL to support homebrewers and content creators, not "major corporations to use for their own commercial and promotional purpose," claiming to protect creators when actually trying to steal from them. www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1423-an-update-on-the-open-game-license-ogl
4:45 "unless you're a spellcaster".... wow... almost died laughing.
There's a portal gun in Pathfinder 2e that's basically just the hither tither staff. It's called the Mountebank's Passage and it has a range of 120 feet, which seems fairly in line with the movie.
The hither-thither staff is basically a wand of arcane gate in 5e with 500 yards as its range instead of 500 ft
Ooh, something I learned!
Learning is good.
Absolutely hilarious! Perhaps the movie will get some more audiences when people learn this ;)
"You cannot defeat the power of friendship " lmao. I'm going to put that on a t shirt with a group attacking a big bad. 😅
Goes along with the teamwork makes the dream work quote.
I'm actually really looking forward to seeing you build the characters in Pathfinder! Can't wait. Thanks for the entertaining video.
The hither tither staff is clearly a reskinned Mountebank’s Passage, since the GM hates having guns in their game.
In some ways... you could call this a D&D 4th Edition movie. Blasphemy I know. (GREAT VIDEO!)
No, no
You're 100% right
I love that you put up the old D&D movie poster with the Pathfinder art. Lol. Another piece of evidence that was presented.
Exhibit A!
I totally forgot about that poster and so missed how good that moment of the video is. Thank you for pointing it out. Masterwork moment.
You had way too much fun making this video lol. Funny as heck
Loved the tongue in cheek statements of fact.
1.2 In the condition you reference, though the way Pathfinder does it is a player option, yes, but it's possible in D&D too, just not something a player can choose to do automatically. A series of successful saving throws, or other characters close by making skill checks. However, the condition the character was in was specifically called out as one that neither of the rule sets had a way to prevent, leading to DM/GM fiat and the use of a very powerful rare and single-use magic item.
My normal lawyer-like fidelity to accuracy was... LESS in this one ;)
The closest thing you have to disturb a caster from casting is with the mage slayer feat that only grants you a Attack of opportunity.
Yes.. but I was under the impression that being hit by that rock, it think it was, and she lost concentration. Otherwise I think the other 9 make sense.
Animate Object is a concentration spell, so it was them attacking to break concentration.
This was a work of art! You win the internet today, Rules Lawyer!
So that's why an early poster stole PF art! It makes total sense now!
Yes!
I can't look at that thumbnail and not hear
*"HOLD IT!"*
*"OBJECTION!"*
The check argument for Edgin is iffy in either system especially for a meta mechanic being depicted on screen in a film. The druid can't turn into an Owlbear at all in PF2E (no polymorphing spell or feature allows for that form), and in D&D only using that games version of the Shapechange spell, which wouldn't be until 17th level, which is way higher than any of the characters in the movie are. That is also the only spell in either system that allows for swapping between forms without using the ability again or casting another spell, none of which is depicted by Doric (the druid's name). Also in PF2E the barbarian would not only get hit, but hit ALOT because barbarians, especially when raging, have a penalty to AC. In either case, in the movie at no point do they overtly depict her going into a Rage, but her untouchable nature could just as easily be abstracting her not taking any damage, which is definitely more the purview of a D&D barbarian with their resistances. Tesseract Tunnel absolutely is the closest analogue to the Portal gun staff depicted in the movie, nothing in D&D works quite like that. On Xenk, the paladin's Daggersword, it doesn't strictly fit the limitations of a shifting rune, and it has been officially canonized in the lore of D&D both on D&D beyond and on the Forgotten Realms wiki. The interruption is actually precisely from D&D, her concentration was interrupted, not her spell, as she had already successfully cast it, this is the least Pathfinder example in your list. Precisely the rule ignored in the previous point is made in the next point, about the red wizard concentrating on 2 spells at once (this analysis is correct). She wasn't just flanked but repeatedly grappled and had to break out. Misty step exists in D&D, there is nothing like it in PF2E in the first place, so spell slots aren't an issue, when there is no spell in PF2E that even works as depicted in the first place. The closes analogue is dimension door, which is a 4th level spell in both systems, whereas Misty Step could come from several sources in D&D and be a nearly free cast for the wizard. Its more likely she simply didn't cast it again, not that she couldn't. A character not dying is a signature issue in D&D over Pathfinder, but a hero point wasn't spent, an item was used (being vague for the same reasons you were in the video). So in that list, only concentrating on two spells, and the hither tither staff are solid arguments, and there is potential counters to that; She had the dual-focused feat from the Tal'Dorei Campaign setting book (many tables allow feats, items and spells from other settings). The Hither Tither staff was a custom item the GM created for the movie, so was the Helmet of Disjunction, also there is no challenge by default in either system for either attuning or investiture of magic items, which was depicted in the film. Additionally, the bard didn't cast any spells either, which isn't accurate to either D&D or PF2E. So I think a fairer argument is that the film wasn't faithful to the rules of any game, it was a depiction not a 1 for 1 analogue. Fun list though.
I can't see now but the thumbnail by itself is already hilarious. You definitely ACEd it!
OK, this was awesome! Dang, I got the bundle earlier this year, and I only read a little of it. I need to catch up! I feel good about Pathfinder but there is so much in the magic that I don't know... that's the part thats holding me back.
OMG Didn't see that ending coming! THANK YOU!!!!
Just want to say I have discovered your channel recently and as somebody who is an expat of pathfinder your content is an amazing refresher!
I love the energy and humor in this video
What about if you framed the movie in DnD as ver. 3/3.5?
Definitely, they didn't say what version and 3.5 is where Pathfinder began, so Ronald is still correct
Fantastic! Didn’t know you had the planned, comedic chops to make it work but I was hugely wrong. Wow.
Great to see some fun content from you! A little levity is always nice, when contrasted with the more serious analysis and rules discussions. Hope this video gets some good traction in the algorithm!
Best Top10 I've ever watched! Even with the cheating. XD
at 11:58 I actually laughed out loud, not just the breath-through-the-nose-snort
This had me giggling the entire time. Great work!
Great video! Very fun cheeky analysis :)
The #1 was worth the watch of the video. I got a good chuckle.
3:28 - Hold up; hit points are not blood points. Most of them represent the ability to avoid serious physical damage. If she deflects or dodges an attack, she just lost HP. Much like in Magic the Gathering, it’s only the last hit that matters. Everything up to that point represents stamina, fatigue, pain tolerance, and luck running out. The real wound significant enough to require special treatment is the one which incapacitates you.
Unless of course your standing in lava.
@@Prberts - My standing in lava what?
What does non-fatal healing represent?
@Keovar it's an example of one of the many many situations where trying to wave HP away as luck or Stamina just falls apart. It had always been supernatural levels of endurance and the game has always treated it as such, even if it likes to pretend otherwise.
@@wichhouse - Channeling energy into the target, to restore stamina, luck, and all the other ephemeral stuff. You could say that your starting HP, or in PF2e your ancestry HP are actual physical damage, but all HP can’t be literal physical damage because you’re not growing more blood or body, you’re getting better at avoiding hits that would have killed you as a regular civilian. The D&D rule letting you recover some HP on a short rest (or even in the middle of combat if you’re a fighter) only makes sense if HP are mostly intangible.
PF2e says HP are “physical punishment” and doesn’t have the same sorts of fast nonmagical healing as D&D5e, so maybe it’s more literal. If these were video games or if people were much better at math, we could express HP as a percentage and visualize it as a red bar, like in an MMO. For me, it still makes more sense as nonserious stuff like fatigue and bruising up until the hit that drops you.
BTW, the terms Armor Class and Hit Points apparently came from naval ships and miniatures games based on them.
Another point you could have made was the tiefling's appearance. In 4e, they changed tieflings to all have the red skin and big horn look, 5e made them have all kinds of weird skin colors, but in pathfinder they had more subtle demonic features to the point that some just looked human with a constant smell of brimstone about them. And to just throw this out there, a lot of the mechanical side of this could be argued is based on 3.5 instead of 5e
Vancean spellcasting is in Dungeons & Dragons. There's no Edition listed on the movie. :p
They also used the Pathfinder Intellect Devourer art asset not the D&D art asset in their promotional material
Gonna just comment again after finishing the video, this is awesome! 😂🎉 looking forward to similar follow up video(s).
Had to comment, YOU'VE GOT 7TH CONTINENT ON YOUR SHELF! I love that game, one of my favorites.
Stealing from other games and making up your own magic items is 100% the heart of D&D.
You missed that that Edgin can't really be represented by a Bard in either 5e or 2e as he isn't throwing spells around.
5e doesn't really have a suitable class option since they decided 90% of adventurers use magic, even most fighters and rogues.
2e scoundrel rogue does him a lot of justice though!
Did you happen to see my script for the next video!?
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG looking forward to see how you build them!
7:39 Tangent: I'm pretty sure that was a different concentration spell: (Otiluke's) Resilient Sphere. Though it contained two creatures which isn't RAW.
ILSM, this makes a lot of sense in PF2e right off the bat
A very thorough and convincing argument. I wouldn't expect anything less form the most accomplished rules lawyer in the RPG creator community.
The reason why WoTC didn't mention Pathfinder 2e is simple. Pathfinder 2e use(d) the OGL and at time of making the film they were planing to release OGL 1.1, so there was no need to mention them. Sadly they didn't fix the mistake after they backpeadled... or maybe they are still trying to release it
To be fair to D&D, they could have been using 3.5 ish rules. That'd handle flanking, the shapeshifting, attacks of opportunity, Vancian casting, interrupted spellcasting and possibly the staff and size changing blade (I'm not gonna pretend to know the full item list in 3.5). The largest problem would be 3.5 rules in what appears to be a post Spellplague Forgotten Realms when WotC in their infinite wisdom used the Spellplague to end 3.5 and usher in 4E rules.
How do you know it is post Spellplague? I didn't know there were obvious signs that would make it clear something took place after it.
@@MatthewCenance pretty sure that Szass Tam turning the Zhulkirs into undead puppets was post 1385, also the years leading up to the Spellplague had Nasher Alagondar as the Lord of Neverwinter and a decently potent force of Cloaktower mages serving the city. That said, I'm not entirely familiar with the five to six years leading into the Spellplague and I haven't looked in depth at a lot of the Realms in years so I could be mistaken.
This is so great. Most excellent job, Ronald. I see it all completely now. This was truly a PF2E Movie 🎉❤😊
Ok I know this is just in good fun, but I do have few specific objections. Given the name of the channel, I assume you don’t mind.
You mentioned that the Druid could wild shape up to 6 times in Pathfinder, which is more than the 2 from D&D, but not as many as we saw in the big wild shape sequence of the movie, so Pathfinder is _also_ not viable here.
Point 8 I think misses some of the nuance of what "hp" actually means, because it’s an abstraction of many things, so a "hit" in the game can be narrated as a near miss that they had to go off balance to avoid, or a miss could be narrated as a hit that didn’t actually hurt them at all due to armour. I have no problem with the film in this respect because it was just an accurate portrayal of what the d20 system underlying both D&D & Pathfinder assumes.
6 is pretty clearly a special item. We see it. The sword doesn’t magically transform like it would from a rune. It’s a clever mechanical creation. A home brew creation the DM gave to their pet DMPC.
For 1.2, I might be misremembering and just thinking of a different moment from the one you are. But the moment I’m thinking of is pretty explicitly a revival through a powerful spell stored in a magic item. Not hero points.
Truly in the spirit of this channel!
My memory was that she wildshaped 5-6 times, and the official D&D statblock says she can wildshape 5 times per day. So I think it checks out.
In regards to a PF2E druid you can use a combination of spell slots and focus point expenditure for an even greater number of wild shapes than she uses, assuming a certain level. Of course, the trouble with PF2e's wild shape is that it requires reverting back to your true form between casting because you can't cast as a polymorphed animal. 😊
@@mistaree8394 "it requires reverting back to your true form between casting", aye, same problem in D&D I believe.
Just like any good lawyer, you don't mention things that can hurt your argument unless the other side already brought that up 1st. Lol!
"You cannot defeat the power of friendship" is the best description of flanking!
Alternate #1 They originally used Pathfinder art on their movie poster. (Intellect devourer) Maybe this was written as a pathfinder movie and Hasbro bought it first? (okay I know that wrong look at all the proper place names.)
had a balast listening to this, idk about the shifting rune line of tought, but all was really neat
Also, character building is something i enjoy a lot, so seeing that it will be done for the cast of the movie give me joy
Good video. Loved the ending
"1.2. Yes, I'm still cheating."
😂😂😂
Damn. No death saves here. Massive damage. This is borderline cyber bullying.
Well played, sir. Well played indeed.
Character explicitly dies and is explicitly resurrected with magic item.
TheRulesLawyer: Is this Hero Points?
I am a Pathfinder 2e GM and enjoyed the movie immensely because it took me back to all those places I have grown up with in AD&D - the Forgotten Realms will always stay in my heart even I am travelling with my group on Golarion meanwhile. Never the less I followed your logic and have to say yes, it is definitely a Pathfinder movie :)
13:51 this is what it looks like when Ronald decides to troll someone.
This is your master work. Huzzah!
I'm neither a Pathfinder nor D&D player but this is truly hilarious. 😂 Keep up the great work!
There is a Crown of something i belive in 5e that says you can have 2 concentration spells if I remember correctly
This reminds me of early 2000s dank videos. Keep them up =)
I haven't watched the movie yet, so I won't be watching the video with any attention, but I wanted to get on here and show my support. Thanks man.
Really enjoyed this
As mainly a 3.x player.... I have to admit I walked out of the movie feeling like the experience was far closer to my experience with 3.5/PF1e than with 5e, even though I have played a fair amount of the latter with various groups as well.
It is most definitely a TTRPG movie. But I'm honestly not sure if it's a 5e movie at all.
(A small thing that stood out to me as we have a Paladin in our 3.5 campaign that's been going for over 4 years now:he paladin in the movie apparently had unlimited at-will use of Detect Evil...? Though they did flavour it with 5e's Divine Sense's "evil smells bad" bit, but that's flavour, mechanically it stood out to me as the 3.5 version of the class.)
Such a troll, Ronald. I love it!
With all the spells flying about on screen, I had pegged Sofina as level 17+, since she cast Time Stop and Meteor Swarm, and the PCs as level 10+. The Paladin was at least level 15, since he had the Undying Sentinel feature of Oath of the Ancients (he's been alive since the war around 100 years ago when he took possession of the McGuffin), and could "talk" to animals. That is why he wasn't allowed to tag along to defeat the Big Bad. I found it laughable that DNDBeyond has Sofina pegged at CR 15 (close, but stretching it), the Paladin at level 10, and the PCs as level 5!!
Hilarious. Got link that that d&d progress graphic from beginning, that was neat - I still have bunch of Greyhawk books.
I found it by googling D&D evolution... here's the link: twitter.com/DonaldTheDM/status/821345784213962756
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG thank so much, wanted to paste it to my group. Here's video idea for you, characters in netflix' Shadow and Bone as pathfinder classes :D
Thanks for the spoiler warnings. Just about to see it but didn't yet. Appreciate it 👍
This is just too good.
Now that is out for purchase check the bonus material. It has a Bestiary vignette not a Monster Manual!
Did the barbarian even rage in the movie?
You can wildhape more than twice, but she would have to be level 20. At 20th level, you can use your Wild Shape an unlimited number of times.
Another reason why it is not D&D: swords and daggers in the movie have been used to stab people, not just deal slashing damage.
*looks at the 2nd edition rules set.*
*looks back.*
So it's a 2nd edition sword then?
I love D&D and is probably never going to play Pathfinde, but this is a very funny video 😀
It's based on adnd the director said he played dnd as a teenager so it's that or 3.x
Doric was a level 20 Druid. They can shapeshift at will.
Objection! Then Doric would have been able to solo Sofina at the end! (Level 20 druids are crazy stronk)
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG She kind of did once she got a hold of Sofina. Plus it was her sling shot that broke Sofina's concentration on the animated Dragon.
@@PiroMunkie She wouldn't solo her by using only wild shape and sling shots, which without wild shape would have a laughable hit roll
'Barring some magic item I don't know about'
Is he going to mention the Sun Blade?
That's a Sun Blade.
That ending! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Yeah. You're joking, but the movie doesn't credit Dave Arneson or Gary Gygax as the creators of D&D.
In fact they only credit Hasbro in a way that can be interpreted as them saying Hasbro made D&D.
This why I'll never watch this movie or spend a single penny on it's tie-in merchandise.
So cheeky! I love this. :)
I'm going to argue that a barbarian never getting hit is closer to 5e because I have seen so many barbarian get an insane AC from level 1 that makes them nigh untouchable. Never seen someone break PF that hard
I think these are generally really good reasons. I think the sphere is otiluke's resilient sphere, not aqueous and I don't think otiluke requires concentration
Great video! Also I just noticed that the lute strings don't match up, which is going to annoy me every time I see the poster now
For #3, are you saying that Simon had time stop prepared? Because that's the only way he'd be able to counter that in pf2. It seems much more likely he just didn't think he'd be able to make the counter spell roll + wouldn't have a high enough slot to automatically succeed
He could also Dispel Magic after it's cast, which involves a counteract check! At his level would not succeed against a 9th or 10th-level spell
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Oh, right, that could work too. The other points are pretty good (especially 1), 3 + 7 just seemed like they used stuff that was decently explainable with 5e mechanics.
The best speed you can reach is 85 feet? Also, I haven't seen the movie yet, but real dnd has passwall, dimension door, and other similar spells plus rules for creating new magic items not in the book. Has rules for making new spells too, though vague.
That was really fun.
Thanks, Rules Layer ^_^
I knew they accidently used the intellect devourer art of pathfinder on the movie poster, but I did not realised they used the size of them too... (5e should be tiny, but they were closer to small size without question)
Tbh, bg3 does the same thing, intellect devourer is a size that wouldn't really fit in someone's head
The 1.2 doesn't makes sense, since it was another character that used a legendary item with true resurrection
Good video
I did enjoy the movie no matter what game it really is
Great video about a great movie and a great system.
Mage Slayer feat 5e.
No one takes it.
But you can smash spellcasters casting in melee.
My purple dragon night took the mage slither feet. The 1st game that I played him in with that beat I was adventuring with another spellcaster and they cast fog cloud during a combat with a bunch of wizards and I was unable to use match later feet because I couldn't see. That totally take me off. Lol
"mage slayer"
Okay, I couldn't help but bust out laughing at point 1. ROFL
This is the kind of pedantry I’m here for👍
I am not sure, but I thought I saw on "Role for Combat", that Wizards hired many design creators from Paizo. Go figure.
I went into this with the attitude of 😆 and halfway through went to 🤯 Holy ****, he’s right…
😄
I hope the movie creators see this video! 👏🎲
Xena the Warrior Princess TV Show is Pathfinder too!
That was a great video
In DnD 5th edition, a character who is dying can roll a gnat 20 on their diarol and they will gain a hit point and be backup and running. That is not a "DnD rule fail."
Nah, bro. This like most action adventure movies, the D&D movie is actually a Savage Worlds movie.
Savage Worlds is heavily focused on using a basic set of powers that are flavored to match a setting. A sight boosting power could be simple magic that boosts clarity of vision, or you calling on a spirit animal and gaining their advanced vision like BraveStarr, or your head suddenly turning into a hawk with enhanced vision. Or for higher tech games it could be some strange tech overlayed on your eyes, or a potion made by a chemical alchemist that grants better vision for a little while. The flavor for that power is called a "trapping" and trappings are chosen with cooperation with the game master to match your character's concept as well as the GM's setting.
0:26 sorry, I’m just really distracted by that chart of the evolution of D&D and related games. I just spent 30 minutes double-checking my recollections to make sure it wasn’t me, and confirmed that it’s the chart that is off.
Short version: those “spiritual successor” designations don’t make any sense, and Spycraft is based on D&D3E and Star Wars D20 and has no real connection to D20 Modern.
Also, why isn’t Star Wars D20 on this chart? Or, if this is solely about D&D and D&D-like RPGs, why is M&MM on the chart but True20/Blue Rose, Arcana Unearthed/Evolved, Iron Heroes, and Midnight aren’t?
*Wrong*
Spycraft isn't based on D20 Modern. It's based on D&D3E and Star Wars D20. It was developed before D20 Modern, and doesn't share any of the rules components of D20 Modern that aren't found in D&D3E (like the basic stat-centered classes) and where Spycraft differs from D&D3E, it also differs from D20 Modern (Spycraft uses wounds/vitality, very similarly to Star Wars D20; D20 Modern uses hit points, just like D&D3E). Spycraft also says, right on the back cover, "Requires the use of the Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook, Third Edition", not the statement that later games made-those that came after D20 Modern was published-that they required the D&D PH orD20 Modern.
*Debatable*
D&D5E is much more in line with AD&D2 than it is with any edition of Basic D&D.
Pathfinder is much more in line with D&D3.5E than it is with AD&D.
Pathfinder 2 is closer to D&D3E than to AD&D2, but has some definite aspects of AD&D (most notably in how spell prep works).
So the "spiritual successor" designations are...dubious. They only make sense in the context of comparing those two games (D&D5E and Pathfinder 1st ed) to each other, not to either BECMI D&D or AD&D[2]. If Pathfinder didn't exist, nobody would be saying that D&D5E is specifically drawing on BECMI D&D (as opposed to AD&D or D&D3E). And while I can see an argument for Pathfinder 2 differing from D&D3 precisely by calling back to AD&D in a few ways, I can't see an argument for Pathfinder 1 being likened to any of the D&D editions but D&D3.5E.
Also, drawing a straight line from AD&D2 to Player's Option to D&D3E is an argument I'd need someone to lay out for me. Because I just don't see it. In terms of chronology, yes, that's what happened. But in terms of rules evolution, I can't think of anything introduced in Player's Option that ended up in the core rules of D&D3E. Oh, wait, I just remembered one: Combat & Tactics I think was the first version of D&D to use a combat grid. Every edition before then had assumed the use of graph paper for maps, but had measured movement and combat positioning and so on with “scale inches”, feet, or just subjectively, rather than in grid increments.
*Odd*
The diagram's layout seems to be implying evolution/improvement in some cases, and chronology in others, and neither in still others.
Any of those layouts would make sense, but kinda mixing them all together is confusing. Why is B/X Companion connected to Expert D&D, but up above BECMI D&D BECMI? Why is For Gold & Glory not above AD&D2? And so on.
The lines also don't seem to indicate similarity or strength of connection, just the existence of the connection. So a longer line doesn't mean "more differences" or "more change". Which is fine, I guess, but a missed opportunity. And leaves the question of why they aren't all the same length, if they have no semantic meaning?
Also, why isn’t Star Wars D20 on this chart? Or, if this is solely about D&D and D&D-like RPGs, why is M&MM on the chart but True20/Blue Rose, Arcana Unearthed/Evolved, Iron Heroes, and Midnight aren’t? Even if the only reason that Spycraft is here is because it led to FantasyCraft, Star Wars D20 should be here because it contributed to Spycraft. (I suspect Star Wars D20’s omission is easily explained: the chart’s author put D20 Modern where they should’ve put Star Wars D20, due to ignorance.)
Blade shooting off to make a dagger feels a stretch for shifting rune
I think you watched a different movie from me?? The blind diplomacy role makes sense, but I didn't see a watery sphere. It was more a glass sphere or globe of invulnerability maybe? The paladin's weapon seemed to be a sword with a dagger in the hilt and some kind of magic to launch the sword blade off of the dagger within.
Scandal of the century!