Dear Tom: do you believe in 'The Rapture'? 😶🌫️
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- Опубліковано 29 лис 2024
- How should we read passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 which make mention of 'Jesus' Return'? ⛅️
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I had not heard of the rapture until I had been a believer for 10 years. I heard it and said, "What are you talking about?" I had read, studied scripture, and never came to it myself. The early church father's never mentioned it, it still seems like scriptural gymnastics to come to this thought
The Lord returns, not to take us to heaven, but to bring heaven to us.
@robertnieten7259 the Lord takes his Bride to the house he prepared for us, the bride comes down to rule and reign with him with an iron rod to restored israel nation and judged nations. The bride is a separate entity from Israel. HE has not appointed us to wrath. He will pour out his wrath. The tribulation marks a dispensation change, just as jesus appearing to israel in a body under the law marked a dispensation change.
In Mark 13 Jesus himself said he would be coming back in the clouds (compare 2 Thessalonians) and that “heaven and earth will pass away”. So many Biblical references including the term “harpazo” (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:41-42, 1 Corinthians 15:52). Not sure why Tom mocks those who take the Bible for what it says. In a previous post I pointed out just a couple reasons why the physics doesn’t work without a new creation.
When did disagreeing become mocking? There is no excuse for Christians to misrepresent the Brethren with whom they disagree.
@@mtc4him201 watch the video and read NT Wright’s book on a New Interpretation of Paul. Wright seems to have a particular disdain for US Christians who claim to “be saved”. The concept of salvation (reconciliation with a Holy God) is such a key concept in both New and Old Testaments that I find that baffling. This and many other things, especially in his book, make me scratch my head. It’s one thing to have a learned opinion…
@@davidstricklin3267 there are many who feel the Anabaptist and some Reformers threw the baby out with the bath water. There is no need to be hostle towards those with whom you disagree. God knows those that are His. There has been much needless suffering because Christians think they are supposed to separate the sheep from the goats in this age instead of letting God do his work at the proper time. I have ZERO interest in arguing doctrine. Matthew 23:37-40
@@mtc4him201 You have made a vague reference to “Anabaptists and some Reformers” and somehow conflate that with my comments and then seemingly excuse yourself from “doctrinal issues”. Yet my comment was about the several doctrinal issues that NT Wright raises in this video, other videos and and his book on Paul. He doesn’t appear to regard those who take the whole of the Bible with the same kind of grace that you appear to demand from anyone commenting here.
It is a tough slog to take the view that there won’t be some sort of “snatching up in the air” (which implies a different physics from that which we now know) and a and the creation of a “new heaven and new earth” given the many references in both the New Testament and Old Testament. I’m OK with Pre-, Post- and Amillennial interpretations since I understand that the view I take may very well be incorrect. Why doesn’t Wright take a more conciliatory position? I don’t know.
Anyone who repents, confesses “Jesus is Lord” and who lives daily in an effort to know and praise God Almighty is “saved” as far as I can tell. You are correct, only God knows and will judge according to the heart. We can all rejoice in that.
@@mtc4him201 And yet... here you are, arguing doctrine.
His interpretation. Gracias
"I hold for a most infallible rule in exposition of the sacred scriptures, that where a literal construction will stand, the farthest from the letter is commonly the worst. There is nothing more dangerous than this licentious and deluding art, which changes the meaning of words, as alchemy doth, or would do, the substance of metals, making of anything what it pleases and bringing in the end all truth to nothing." Hooker, cited by G.H. Peters, The Theocratic Kingdom, Vol 1, p.47.
To meet and return immediately... that's the second time I've heard that. So the rapture and the Second Coming occur at the same time.
Most likely. That was the common view until the 19th century.
@@PaulAnthonyGonzalez the Bible is full of symbolism and foreshadowings. You don't have to figure them all out but what fun it is when you do get some insight!
Clouds represent a number of different things: the holiness of God as on Mount Sinai, Christ coming in judgment, protection and guidance as the pillar of cloud that led the Israelites.
One of my favorite symbols is the cherubim embroidered on the Temple curtain. When Jesus cried out, "it is finished!", the veil was split top to bottom and separated the cherubim represented as guarding access to the tree of life in Eden. Now we have full access because Jesus took the sword in his side so that we will not face the angelic sword guarding the tree. Now that's some symbolism!
As for meeting Christ in the air and returning with him I don't think it's gonna feel like an up-and-down experience. Have no idea how that will look but something far beyond what we can imagine.
And then there's all that symbolism in the tabernacle. But that's a another story...
I believe the 2nd coming is after the tribulation. The rapture is before the tribulation.
Rapture is a misreading of Matt 24:37-40. Evangelicals don't read scripture contextually so they ignore context here.
the Trib happened when Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70Ad. It was a 3.5 year period under Nero as the "man of sin and lawlessness". Nero was the Beast. The Mark of the Beast was allegiance to Ceasar. Right hand and forehead is a Deuteronomy 6:8 term. The whore of Babylon was the Sanhedrin in cahoots with Rome.
All OT reference to New heavens and new earth and new Israel/Judah/Jerusalem was talking about the new Church age and Church its self. Romans 11 shows us how salvation left the jews due to their rejection and came to the world. the gentile world is the branch grafted in.
The only thing ahead is a global revival of most of the planet coming to Christ as one church body in faith in Christ alone before the end. Habakkuk 2:14, Isaiah 101:9. Its a wheat field, not a tear field. Then the final second coming and judgment.
The problem with rapture theology is a lack of theological reading of scripture.
No it doesn't
The rapture is one of the weirdest doctrines out there.
Rapture is a misreading of Matt 24:37-40. Evangelicals don't read scripture contextually so they ignore context here.
the Trib happened when Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70Ad. It was a 3.5 year period under Nero as the "man of sin and lawlessness". Nero was the Beast. The Mark of the Beast was allegiance to Ceasar. Right hand and forehead is a Deuteronomy 6:8 term. The whore of Babylon was the Sanhedrin in cahoots with Rome.
All OT reference to New heavens and new earth and new Israel/Judah/Jerusalem was talking about the new Church age and Church its self. Romans 11 shows us how salvation left the jews due to their rejection and came to the world. the gentile world is the branch grafted in.
The only thing ahead is a global revival of most of the planet coming to Christ as one church body in faith in Christ alone before the end. Habakkuk 2:14, Isaiah 101:9. Its a wheat field, not a tear field. Then the final second coming and judgment.
The problem with rapture theology is a lack of theological reading of scripture.
@@HillbillyBlack Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE. This disqualifies 70 AD. 66-70 AD, 1 million Jews Killed; 1941-1945 SIX million Jews killed. In addition WW1 15 million killed, WW2 50 million killed. Worse is yet to come with half the earth's population killed; Rev 9:15, that would be billions.
No no no....the rapture is a mystery. It will happen at the end of the church age and the tribulation will start God will redeem israel and judge the nation's. The church returns with him at his coming
@@ricoyochanan do you know that Rome eradicated Jerusalem leaving no stone on top of another? They killed more Jews during those 3 1/2 years between 66-70 then anything we saw in the holocaust. This is recorded history in the writings of Josephus, Flavianum, Agapius of Hierapolis and commentary by Michael the Syrian. The reasons we never consider this is because this type of history is so far back that finding details like this is difficult but there are other alignments that align with revelation called localized judgment. For instance Daniel is told to seal up the same foretold prophecies 400 years before revelation is written whereas John is told to keep the reveal of Daniel‘s prophecies unsealed in his visions.
@Charismactivism Please tell me what's so weird about the teaching of the Rapture?
The Rapture of The Church
Where in The Holy Bible does is say, 'rapture'? It doesn't say the word, 'rapture', but in the Latin Vulgate. What does 'rapture' mean? It means
'caught away' or 'pull away' or 'pull up' or 'rapture'.
The rapture is not only for The Church as a whole, but an individual could be raptured. The first time in the New Testament a person was raptured was Philip the Evangelist in chapter 8 of Acts...
Acts 8:34-40
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
So Philip was with the Ethiopian Eunuch, then he disappeared and was found in Azotus in an instant.
The next place someone was raptured was mentioned in 2Corinthians 12...
2Corinthians 12:1-5 Rapture and Caught Up Into Paradise
1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
The Apostle Paul was most likely speaking of himself 'caught up' into Paradise. These are the Apostle Paul's words.
Also The Church. The Apostle Paul mentions this in 1Thessalonians 4...
1Thessalonians 4:14-18 The Church Caught Up in The Air
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
In verse 17 Paul states it clearly, "We which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds..." The living believers at the time of the resurrection of the just will follow those that have passed away. The Apostle Paul also mentions that it will be in the twinkling of an eye in 1Corinthians 15...
1Corinthians 15:51-57 In a Twinkling of an Eye
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
This passage is quite clear too. Also in 1Thessalonians 1:10
1Thessalonians 1:10 Delivered from The Wrath to Come
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
And 1Thessalonians 5:9
1Thessalonians 5:9, 10 Not Appointed to Wrath
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Eh? There are many passages that support the Lord coming for his people and taking them home to heaven prior to the Day of the LORD (Tribulation). His view seems very confused and contrived. The Thessalonians were not Bible scholars wrestling with Torah Theology, but simple Jesus following Gentiles looking for the coming of Jesus.
Name ONE that grammatically separates the 2nd coming from the rapture and fits on either side of a 7 year trib? They were absolutely Torah believers reading the Tanakh. That was the only scripture available at the time.
Rapture is a misreading of Matt 24:37-40. Evangelicals don't read scripture contextually so they ignore context here.
the Trib happened when Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70Ad. It was a 3.5 year period under Nero as the "man of sin and lawlessness". Nero was the Beast. The Mark of the Beast was allegiance to Ceasar. Right hand and forehead is a Deuteronomy 6:8 term. The whore of Babylon was the Sanhedrin in cahoots with Rome.
All OT reference to New heavens and new earth and new Israel/Judah/Jerusalem was talking about the new Church age and Church its self. Romans 11 shows us how salvation left the jews due to their rejection and came to the world. the gentile world is the branch grafted in.
The only thing ahead is a global revival of most of the planet coming to Christ as one church body in faith in Christ alone before the end. Habakkuk 2:14, Isaiah 101:9. Its a wheat field, not a tear field. Then the final second coming and judgment.
The problem with rapture theology is a lack of theological reading of scripture.
@@HillbillyBlack Try reading a single book by Messianic Jewish scholars/Christians.
Your stated claims are pre-judged biases. Your claims are also without the counter claims of other Scripture like Ezekiel, Hosea, and all the "minor prophets" or "short books" which deal with the many promises God has yet to fullfill for Israel. Your view would try to usurp the rightful recipients, and in facts was first concocted by anti-semitic leaders of denominations like Catholics and Lutherans.
Try Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum's great work "Israelology: the missing link in systematic theology".
Happy reading!
There is no pre tribulation rapture and no 7 year tribulation period. If there is, please please lead me to the chapter and verse to support it. Pre tribulation rapture originates from a false prophecy in 1830 given by a woman called Margaret Macdonald n a Plymouth Brethren church and the 7 year tribulation period comes from from a complete misunderstanding of Daniels prophecy in Daniel c9. I don’t know how many times I’ve had to bring this to peoples attention, but it must be in the hundreds by now! No one has ever been able to provide the biblical evidence to support the above because it doesn’t exist!
And so what happens to those who are not God’s children when Jesus returns? What’s Wright’s view of the renewed creation?
Just did a very quick search for his views on the sort of topics you’re hitting on there and there’s loads to dig into when you have the time and inclination. Happy hunting.
There’s a view outlined in the “Left Behind” series that addresses your question. NT Wright seems disdainful of that interpretation in the interview. Wright pieces selected parts of the Bible, especially when it comes to eschatology, that leaves a lot of explaining to do.
@@davidstricklin3267 a troubling attitude in the Church: "my view of the Bible is the biblical view." rather than accusing a brother of not considering the whole of scripture, consider that perhaps there's pieces that you yourself have been missing, or that have been misinterpreted for you.
When Christ Returns, he plants his feet on the earth and it becomes renovated into the new earth where he will be with us forever, What happens to the unsaved who are still alive at that time?
Great question.
John 5:28 All the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son, 29 and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.
Not sure he knows what he’s talking about to be honest! He needs to read Matthew c24 and Luke c21. It’s certainly literal. When Jesus ascended, was that literal? Jesus ascension was seen by many. Likewise His second coming will seen by the tribes of the earth and they will mourn! The angels standing nearby said ‘this same Jesus who was taken up from you into heaven Will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven’ Acts c1 v11. Matthew c24 v29-31 supports this (second coming) as does Luke c21 v27.
Many amillennial believers over the centuries have held that the entire bodily resurrection and change of the living saints (rapture) occurs when Christ returns in glory and the new heavens and new earth are inaugurated.
This is not dissimilar to historical premillennialists who place all judgement and resurrection within the future Christ return/millennial period, an extended 'Day of the Lord'.
In the meantime, is what Paul and the early believers thought of as holy rest, to be out of the body and with the Lord.
Rapture is a misreading of Matt 24:37-40. Evangelicals don't read scripture contextually so they ignore context here.
the Trib happened when Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70Ad. It was a 3.5 year period under Nero as the "man of sin and lawlessness". Nero was the Beast. The Mark of the Beast was allegiance to Ceasar. Right hand and forehead is a Deuteronomy 6:8 term. The whore of Babylon was the Sanhedrin in cahoots with Rome.
All OT reference to New heavens and new earth and new Israel/Judah/Jerusalem was talking about the new Church age and Church its self. Romans 11 shows us how salvation left the jews due to their rejection and came to the world. the gentile world is the branch grafted in.
The only thing ahead is a global revival of most of the planet coming to Christ as one church body in faith in Christ alone before the end. Habakkuk 2:14, Isaiah 101:9. Its a wheat field, not a tear field. Then the final second coming and judgment.
The problem with rapture theology is a lack of theological reading of scripture.
@@HillbillyBlack Very good points. What is called 'rapture' is just a part of the resurrection of the righteous which occurs when Christ returns in glory. No hidden return. "And every eye will see him..."
@stephenbailey9969 heres another consideration to ponder.
1000 year reign
There is no need to take the reference to this millenni-um, this one thousand years, as a literal one. This is a symbolic number, in a symbolic chapter, in a highly symbolic book. Throughout Scripture, it is used as a place holder for a very large number-the number of hills where God owns the cattle (Ps. 50:10), the number of enemy soldiers that one Israelite will pursue (Josh. 23:10), and the number of generations with whom God keeps covenant (Deut. 7:9).
And references to a thousand years are also obviously figurative. "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night" (Ps. 90:4; cf. Eccl. 6:6, 2 Pet. 3:8).
@@HillbillyBlack I'm halfway between amillennial and premillennial.
From the other NT scriptures, we see the division of ages between 'this age' and 'the age to come'. The dividing line is when Jesus returns in glory, the Lord's Day in which all resurrection and judgement occurs. I am OK with that being a short time or as much as a thousand years. It's in the Lord's hands.
But for me, the preterist amillennial outlook which claims that Satan and spiritual evil has been bound already, that the 'millennium' is already occurring, makes no sense to me. I see real spiritual evil all around.
Consistency in terms of interpreting the Bible is very important unless the Bible tells you differently. All the Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled literally so therefore all the rest of the Old Testament prophecies left to be fulfilled will be literal as well as the New Testament prophecies. Just because something is hard to understand doesn’t mean that it must be symbolic. Very disappointing from NT. The Bible is alive right now and is showing us that we could be heading into the end times but most Christians are not educated to know what to look for because of this type of interpretation. At least we all believe in the basic gospel message, it will all come out in the wash as my mother used to say. We will all find out soon enough who had got which bit of the Bible right soon enough. I’m sure we all have parts interpreted incorrectly, I just prefer the idea that the Bible says what it means and means what it says.
Please save me of my sins
He misses, dismisses or ignores a lot of scripture. Not a word mentioned about the wrath of God and the promise that believers will not go thru it.
What do you think the wrath of God who is one and is pure love looks like.
@@Ton1956Y Remember that God is fair and just. He will deal with evil via His wrath. Read Revelation chapters 15 and 16 describing His wrath. It will be horrendous, believe me you don't want to be here when it happens.
Rapture is a misreading of Matt 24:37-40. Evangelicals don't read scripture contextually so they ignore context here.
the Trib happened when Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70Ad. It was a 3.5 year period under Nero as the "man of sin and lawlessness". Nero was the Beast. The Mark of the Beast was allegiance to Ceasar. Right hand and forehead is a Deuteronomy 6:8 term. The whore of Babylon was the Sanhedrin in cahoots with Rome.
All OT reference to New heavens and new earth and new Israel/Judah/Jerusalem was talking about the new Church age and Church its self. Romans 11 shows us how salvation left the jews due to their rejection and came to the world. the gentile world is the branch grafted in.
The only thing ahead is a global revival of most of the planet coming to Christ as one church body in faith in Christ alone before the end. Habakkuk 2:14, Isaiah 101:9. Its a wheat field, not a tear field. Then the final second coming and judgment.
The problem with rapture theology is a lack of theological reading of scripture.
@@Ton1956Y Exactly as stated in so many books of the bible. You should try reading it and learning the facts before jumping into details of non-essential Christian doctrine?
@@williamclemens4882 John the Jew who wrote Revelation quoted the Hebrew Bible up to 500 times in 404 verses (I haven't counted). That means alot.
God has always had Wrath against those who oppose Him (Read Isaiah and Jeremiah for instance). But there is NOTHING to imply that Wrath and Judgment is held for a future timeframe only.
The Matthew 24:29 reference quotes Isaiah 13:10 and Joel 2:10 which already occurred. The "coming on the clouds" is a reference for judgment. Today's church reads this without the 1st century context of understanding.
That didn't make sense...
He’s good at not being explicit.
He sounds like a politician
Rapture is a misreading of Matt 24:37-40. Evangelicals don't read scripture contextually so they ignore context here.
the Trib happened when Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70Ad. It was a 3.5 year period under Nero as the "man of sin and lawlessness". Nero was the Beast. The Mark of the Beast was allegiance to Ceasar. Right hand and forehead is a Deuteronomy 6:8 term. The whore of Babylon was the Sanhedrin in cahoots with Rome.
All OT reference to New heavens and new earth and new Israel/Judah/Jerusalem was talking about the new Church age and Church its self. Romans 11 shows us how salvation left the jews due to their rejection and came to the world. the gentile world is the branch grafted in.
The only thing ahead is a global revival of most of the planet coming to Christ as one church body in faith in Christ alone before the end. Habakkuk 2:14, Isaiah 101:9. Its a wheat field, not a tear field. Then the final second coming and judgment.
The problem with rapture theology is a lack of theological reading of scripture.
@@HillbillyBlack No, we don't ignore context, we take in the entire context. The idea that the Tribulation happened in 70 AD is asinine! Nero was A antichrist, not THE Antichrist! Reading the text that way makes absolutely no sense! There is no need for "an end" if the whole world is already coming to Christ. The end comes after the rapture of the church and the crisis that causes which opens up for the real Antichrist and his United Nations ruling the world and which happens before Christ returns to destroy the Antichrist and restore the world. You're abusing the text to make it suit your own preferences!
Par for the course with N.T.Wright.
Tom's explanation in misleading in my opinion: 1Thessalonians chapter 5 is not a continuation of the rapture explanation of chapter 4 because the original Greek text words used are defined to guide the reader to a change in topic and in this case it went from a detailed explanation to to a more general explanation. I am disappointed when people let their opinion drive their conclusions which appears possibly to be happening in Tom's arguement.
NT Wright is so cocksure of everything he explains, it seems he could at least acknowledge his comments come from his own world view. He talks about meeting Caesar or Moses coming down from the mountain as timestamped events that New Testament writers could draw upon. Another view is that such things may be foreshadowing or common view analogies that a God inspired writer might draw upon.
He seems wrapped up in his claims that Western Christians may have wandered off into a form of Gnosticism by taking “new heaven and earth” quite literally. Does he deny that Jesus appeared in a resurrected body that defies the laws of physics as we know it? I don’t think he does but perhaps so. Perhaps this is a foreshadowing of a time when “heaven and earth” will follow the laws of some different kind of physics perhaps perhaps one that doesn’t have time as a dimension (I’m one of those who feel there will be no clocks in heaven and that eternity is a state of being and not just an infinite period of time-kind of like our perception who God is).
From that different viewpoint trusting the Bible’s description of a “new heaven and new earth” literally means that at some point, seemingly well described throughout the Bible, there will be a literal new creation. I’m not sure this is classical Gnosticism.
If you think physics is mostly right then you begin to see that eventually God will have to intervene in some way and that mankind will run out of resources to be the keeper of Earth. Many other scriptural passages support that man is unable to sustain what must be necessary beyond a few thousand or tens of thousands of years. God in His omnipotence must intervene in some heretofore unknown way which is almost certainly beyond anything our limited intelligence can fathom.
Forgive the overuse of perhaps, this comment box makes it very difficult to edit. At least you can say I am merely presenting an alternate view that Wright should consider rather that dogmatically claiming he’s wrong 😊
Certainly this product of limited intelligence deity doesn't 'intervene' outside of doctrines and myths.
Rapture is a misreading of Matt 24:37-40. Evangelicals don't read scripture contextually so they ignore context here.
the Trib happened when Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70Ad. It was a 3.5 year period under Nero as the "man of sin and lawlessness". Nero was the Beast. The Mark of the Beast was allegiance to Ceasar. Right hand and forehead is a Deuteronomy 6:8 term. The whore of Babylon was the Sanhedrin in cahoots with Rome.
All OT reference to New heavens and new earth and new Israel/Judah/Jerusalem was talking about the new Church age and Church its self. Romans 11 shows us how salvation left the jews due to their rejection and came to the world. the gentile world is the branch grafted in.
The only thing ahead is a global revival of most of the planet coming to Christ as one church body in faith in Christ alone before the end. Habakkuk 2:14, Isaiah 101:9. Its a wheat field, not a tear field. Then the final second coming and judgment.
The problem with rapture theology is a lack of theological reading of scripture.
@@HillbillyBlack As Tom Wright you are selective when addressing this issue. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 “we will be caught up together to meet the Lord”. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 “we shall not all sleep but be changed…twinkle of eye…last trumpet”. Revelation 4:1 “I will show you things to come” then describes further. John 14:3 “if I go there I prepare for you a place”. NT Wright promotes his “new interpretation of Paul” (yes, reference to his book) to fit his views but there are lots of scholars who disagree. There are many references in both OT and NT where a passage can refer to past, present and future so the reference to people greeting Caesar would have added special richness and perspective to contemporaries but doesn’t necessarily limit to that singular interpretation locked to their own perspective. Perhaps Wright does have the proper interpretation and widely respected as a NT scholar but when all taken in perspective I am skeptical.
@@HillbillyBlackbro thinks he has to defend his point to death
How do you know what Paul said was a metaphor and what was not? Maybe he said those strange things because he wanted to keep those poor souls quiet .
I have family members who refuse to be cremated because of these verses.
Paul is just repeating what Jesus already taught to the disciples on the Mount of Olives - immediately after that time of trouble Jesus will return on the clouds in power and great glory, and He will gather the elect. Paul adds details to this mystery, since revelation of what happens to those still alive at the 2nd Coming hadn’t been shared yet. In 2 Thes 1:6-8 we see Paul saying our relief will come when Jesus returns from Heaven in blazing fire with His mighty angels to execute vengeance on the wicked…another clear repeat of Matthew 24. Yes, Jesus is returning to set all things right and reign on the earth. Yes, there will be a rapture. And yes, the two are intrinsically joined all throughout Scripture….because the rapture isn’t the consummation of our blessed hope; instead, it’s a detail of the greatest hope for all believers for all time - the first resurrection, our new glorified bodies making us into His likeness for the rest of eternity, firsthand witnesses of the restoration of this creation and beloved guests in the New Creation 1,000 years later.
I like how you describe all of that as “clear”.
@alexreid4131 Haha I didn’t say all of it was clear. I said the specific passage of 2 Thes 1:6-8 is clear in its repeating what had already been declared previously by Jesus, which He was expounding on what had already been declared all throughout the Old Testament by the Prophets. The consistent threads throughout Scripture are telling the same story of the 2nd Coming since first prophesied by Enoch - according to Jude (not the book of Enoch).
@@humblewatchman1673 ha ha yeah I knew what you meant but I do think it’s funny when people use words like, “clear”, “clearly”, “obviously” etc with regard to eschatological matters. I was just pulling your leg.
Honestly, my contention is that regardless of whatever eschatological beliefs one does or does not hold to ultimately we will all end up being surprised. Same as how no one “guessed” what the first coming of the messiah would look like and now with Jesus himself interpreting the OT for us we go, “Ahhhh…now I get it”. Whatever happens down the road even the “clearest” amongst us will likely go, “Well…didn’t see that coming!”
As a dear mentor of mine in his older years once told me when I asked him after a lifetime of studying eschatology if his positioned had changed over the years and if he wouldn’t mind sharing with me his key take aways:
“If Christ himself doesn’t know all the details then how proud of us to presume we can. What I’ve learned is that any inquiry as to whether I am an Amillennial, a Premillennial or a Postmillennial is ultimate ‘A’ ‘Pre’’Post’erous question!”
@alexreid4131 That’s awesome! And hilarious - A-Pre-Post-erous question 😂 Jesus said He didn’t know the day nor hour, but He answered the apostles very specifically when asked about the end of the age. Paul reiterated what Jesus said, and Jesus pointed us to Daniel 12. I love His references to Daniel throughout Matthew. For instance, when asked how many times should we forgive, He told the disciples 70x7….Daniel tells us of the 70 weeks prophecy that represents the end of the age….Jesus said “you’ll forgive until the end of the age”.
I think eschatology becomes much easier to understand when we just let the text tell us what it means. It becomes scattered and ambiguous when we decide the text means something other than what’s written - so, when John tells us there will be a thousand years that the righteous reign on earth with Christ, why not just believe him? It’s not the first time this period of time was ever referenced. Isaiah 24: 21-22 tells of a time of imprisonment of both wicked angels and wicked men, and after “many days” they’ll be released to be judged….Rev 20 is just specifying what the “many days” equates too.
If none of the prophecies concerning Jesus’s 1st coming were figurative and allegorical, what precedence is there to now believe the prophecy surrounding His 2nd coming is figurative and allegorical?
@@humblewatchman1673 brother…you’re talking to a 47 year old who grew up in the Open Brethren in North East Scotland in the 70s and 80s. VERY familiar with the Pre-Tribulation Premillennial Dispensational position on eschatology. I still have all the pullout diagrams and pop-up books that were needed to make something so “clear” and “obvious” make the versus make sense. If I have to sit though another “Daniel’s Weeks” Bible Study, Conference and/or Sermon again with my KJV Thompson Chain Reference, JN Darby, Schofield Chain Reference, Vines Expository of NT Words and Strong’s Concordance…well…you get the idea. And I’m sure you are very familiar. I have learned never to argue with a fellow believer unless it’s for the purpose of edification and building up of the body. Which the Bible and Christ has overwhelming more to say about over and against the subjects our fallen and feeble human minds prefer to argue over that tends to cause splits and instigate wars historically. I used to enjoy engaging in the theological “sport” of such debates. But now I see more of what Christ and his Apostles were far more focussed on spreading news about. Context is everything of course as always. God bless ya brother and I’m glad you enjoyed the “joke”. I have a hunch it’s more true that we’d like to think.
Nonsense delivered with such passion is still nonsense.
144 men like N.T. Wright equals gross confusion.
Finally, I learned something from a YT video about the Bible.
Everything Mr. Wright cites about Scripture is consistent with the Bible based account of Rapture, despite his verbal denial of it. Mr. Wright is a clever man.
Perhaps there needs to be a rapture to put an end to God's work on earth, but given in the end that very very few of those have believed will ever experience it from this side of heaven it may be more of a continual frustration to many that it has not already happened. Many will continue to suffer unbearable deaths and wonder why the rapture does not happan. In such many will suffer despair and lose of faith at false understandings and teachings. Perhaps this is a warning to all about pushing their hopes as facts.
He doesn't believe in the rapture then.
Like most Christians.
Not in the Left Behind sort of Dispensationalist perspective no.
@@alexreid4131 he didn't explain the meeting "in the air" part of scripture. Just what meeting meant.
@@stephencooke4973 right because as you rightly said in your initial comment, “He doesn’t believe in the rapture then”. And in terms of the more recent (historically speaking) imaginings of what the rapture is then yes he doesn’t seem to believe that. Not really sure what you’re getting at with your qualifying comment though. Your initial comment was spot on as it was.
He believes that the Christian hope is the Great Resurrection from the dead. The new heaven and new earth will be joined together, and Jesus will take up His rightful throne. He will judge everyone righteously, and make all things right. It's not about us going to God; it's about God coming to dwell with His people...as He has always done.
Paul is very clear in 1 Thess 4:13ff - 2 Thess. 2. The answer given is not clear and not Scriptural. We must use the Historical, Grammatical, Literal (plain) hermeneutic when interpreting Scripture. Dr. Wright presents an allegorical word-salad that is not Scriptural. Beware. And he is not called out on it!
N.T. Wright, claptrap machine.
Their spirits/souls are with Christ, but their bodies will be resurrected. Paul says in the New Testament that immediately after he dies, he will be with Christ. It is the instruction for those he was writing to at the time, and all those who read his words.
This is a problem passage for his eschatology. As with the first coming, no one has exactly figured out the second. What matters is that we know Jesus will return.
We should focus on Jesus and his final instructions - love and the Great Commission. NOT eschatology, and especially NOT a physical nation, which figures in our eschatology. That misplaced emphasis overlooks Deuteronomy 1:16,17. It has empowered disproportionate vengeance.
Even our Christian Palestinian brethren, descendants of Jesus' first followers, are being wiped out, and we don't care because we "stand with Is."
I invite the hosts of Premier Unbelievable to have Dr. Hugh Ross on to discuss these mistaken claims by Mr. Wright.
Also, I encourage the hosts of these web videos to familiarize themselves with Messianic Jewish Christianity and their greater depth and familiarity with the Jewish perspective of Scripture, long before the European doctrines and corrupted practices and views were created and cultivated.
I hope you're not offended that I called out the arrogance of your highly sensationalized video, on a serious theology subject, filtered down to a single point of view, with no acknowledgment of other views. My prior post seems to have fallen through the cracks of UA-cam. Do you believe in "Agapao"?
Rapture is a misreading of Matt 24:37-40. Evangelicals don't read scripture contextually so they ignore context here.
the Trib happened when Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70Ad. It was a 3.5 year period under Nero as the "man of sin and lawlessness". Nero was the Beast. The Mark of the Beast was allegiance to Ceasar. Right hand and forehead is a Deuteronomy 6:8 term. The whore of Babylon was the Sanhedrin in cahoots with Rome.
All OT reference to New heavens and new earth and new Israel/Judah/Jerusalem was talking about the new Church age and Church its self. Romans 11 shows us how salvation left the jews due to their rejection and came to the world. the gentile world is the branch grafted in.
The only thing ahead is a global revival of most of the planet coming to Christ as one church body in faith in Christ alone before the end. Habakkuk 2:14, Isaiah 101:9. Its a wheat field, not a tear field. Then the final second coming and judgment.
The problem with rapture theology is a lack of theological reading of scripture.
people will "pull" you to their courts to be judged. thats the rapture. anything God gives is a free gift without condemnation. anything people invent about rapture law works is bogus. and God be with-in you, like you have already received the Spirit, do you believe.
It’s all one……No nonsense of rapture
The harpozo thing was never in the dream
I met a girl who put me in a rapture. Wow I believe now
Haha
Every Christian believes in the rapture because it's in the Bible
We only disagree on the timing of it
Everyone believes it? I used to until I dug deep and realised none of the recognised scholars do and none of the church fathers did. Its Darbyism, one the greatest lies perpetrated by the satan to immobilise the church, from the heretical teaching of the founder of the exclusive brethren, John Darby. It just feeds into pagan apocalyptic ideologies and mindsets. There is only one second coming in scripture, where Christ will return to put all things right once and for all. :)
No it is not. This "rapture" bullshit is a straight up fabrication by John Nelson Darby in the 19th century. Like most, he didn't have the faintest clue what Paul was talking about because he had exactly zero knowledge of first century Jewish mysticism.
I watched this 3 times and it still doesnt make a lick of sense.
He's saying when Jesus returns the living will meet him and join the triumphant return, and 'the air' is just a symbolic image.
@@grantbartley483 A symbolic image is fine... but I don't think he's saying "rapture" reading is correct except that the cloud part is symbolic.
@@PaulAnthonyGonzalez No. some is symbolism and some literal. If it something that happened, then it's literal. If it's something that will happen at the end times, it is likely symbolic. The whole of Revelation is symbolic in the same way.
@@jacquedegatineau9037 The whole rapture reading of American evangelicalism is over-reading into the text, and the 'left behind' stuff is just completely bad hermeneutics.
He’s better here than he was on what happens to the dead. But the elephant is still in the room : the dead are dead and have to be raised from their sleep in Jesus - they do not get pulled away from Heaven or Paradise!
Not asleep but with Christ
@@jbfree1122 "asleep in Jesus, "fallen asleep with Jesus"
Tom’s gotta be reading from his own translation, yeah?
Rapture is a misreading of Matt 24:37-40. Evangelicals don't read scripture contextually so they ignore context here.
the Trib happened when Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70Ad. It was a 3.5 year period under Nero as the "man of sin and lawlessness". Nero was the Beast. The Mark of the Beast was allegiance to Ceasar. Right hand and forehead is a Deuteronomy 6:8 term. The whore of Babylon was the Sanhedrin in cahoots with Rome.
All OT reference to New heavens and new earth and new Israel/Judah/Jerusalem was talking about the new Church age and Church its self. Romans 11 shows us how salvation left the jews due to their rejection and came to the world. the gentile world is the branch grafted in.
The only thing ahead is a global revival of most of the planet coming to Christ as one church body in faith in Christ alone before the end. Habakkuk 2:14, Isaiah 101:9. Its a wheat field, not a tear field. Then the final second coming and judgment.
The problem with rapture theology is a lack of theological reading of scripture.
GOD WILL BRING WITH JESUS THAT'S HERECY BECAUSE GOD IS ONE.THERE'S NO GOD AND JESUS...
Silly old Paul getting his messages mixed up, better to listen to nt wright 🤣
All far too ‘symbolic’. Why are you taking Pauls words, and others and making them into something other than what they say?
A book on Revelation by the late Roger Forster is a similar type of ‘take a passage, and make it all symbolic and not literal’.
Fed up with the lot of them!
NT Wright can't be more wrong, he's confusing himself
It's one thing to say there's no rapture period (Which is not Biblical)
And to say the rapture will happened at the end of the 7 year tribulation and by the second coming of the Lord Jesus
Hilarious
Matthew 13:24-30, 37-43 and 47-50...Matthew 24:3, 13 and 29-30. He is Clear! End of the World "after" tribulation!
John 6:39-40, 44, 54 and 11:24 Clear again Last Day
1 Corinthians 15:51-58 and Revelation 11:15-19 kjv Last Trump
Paul doesn't teach anything differently....He tells us Last Trump!
Look at 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 4:13-18 - at the end, when the Lord returns. The Lord tells us, after tribulation Matthew 24:29-31 kjv. "after"
1 Corinthians 1:7-8 and 15:24 and 51-58 kjv.
Revelation 18:4 kjv. My People - are you his people? I am!!!!!
John 16:33.....Matthew 24:3 and Endure to the end verse 13. Paul tells us the exact same thing
You will have tribulation....nothing will happen UNTIL the Lord returns!
At the End of the World, Last Day @ the Last Trump!!!
Not my words....this is straight our of scripture! Deny him, he will deny you!
Peace!
What a pile of bilge … but fancy bilge, that’s for sure.
Word salad.
Only if you're trying to simultaneously understand him while holding on to futurism. Otherwise, he makes loads of sense.
There are no passages in context that actually teach a pretrib rapture. It's an idea brought to each passage.
@@PaulAnthonyGonzalez There are plenty that in context show us Jesus is God and some say it outright, like John 1:1. However, there are none in context that teach or infer a pretrib rapture. The best one I've heard is Rev. 3:10. But you will notice that it was a promise to one church that had suffered much for the Lord (unlike the church in the west who consequently would not be raptured) and he does not say he will come physically and take them out. Also you may notice not too many claim Rev 2:10 for the church. God bless.
@@PaulAnthonyGonzalez Well, Jesus himself said when you see these signs know that the time is near, right? Also, as for it being imminent, Jesus said no one knows the day or hour, but the context of that statement was just after he said his coming would be "after the Tribulation of those days..." But just the same, he does not say how long after, so it's imminent after that time. So I can't agree. Paul said the day of his coming and our gathering together unto him can't happen until the Lawless one is revealed, and the apostasy occurs. So are there any passages in context that actually teach it?
KJV ONLY, YOU CAN'T BE A NT SCHOLAR IF YOU ARE NOT READING THE ONLY CORRECT ENGLISH TRANSLATION
Don't most Bible scholars use the original languages, not dependent on any English translation?
@garyrickard1147 what in the world are you even saying, did you mean to post that reply on a different comment? WHAT TRANSLATION DID HE READ FROM? Therefore my first comment stands against your response whatever that was???
@@Codeman785 I have no idea what translation he read from. I took your comment to mean that NT scholars must use the right translation, and I was saying that scholars base their scholarship on Hebrew and Greek, not on any English translation.
@garyrickard1147 he is not reading from the KJV...... In the thumbnail he is titled as a Bible scholar..... Once again, what are you even saying? I am speaking on the only correct English translation, I said nothing about untranslated version.
NT Wright is a dude who's made a living by selling religious woo woo to others in a way they think he believes it sincerely
The rapture was invented by John Nelson Darby in 1827
And he had a DeLorean and made Paul invent it in the Bible.
@@kevinmoore3033 Nope, just classic misinterpretation as NT explained.
@InHocSignoVinces40 In what work does Irenaeus describe his belief in the rapture?
@InHocSignoVinces40 Thanks! I'm looking at a translation by Philip Schaff for Roman Roads Media which appears to be a Christian home schooling organization, and while I haven't read the whole thing, I've searched for the terms "tribulation" and "rapture" and nothing came up. Can you point to where in the text this is described?
Which is not going to happen
As I said to James above.
NT Wright loves his fairy tales.
If you don’t accept the New Testament, why do you bother making fatuous comments?
Oh he likes the Brother's Grimm and Aesop's Fables?
Man certainly has a lot of interests.
So what the fuck are you doing here?
Too clever for his own good. If God thought we would need an expert in ancient cultures and languages to understand Scripture, then He wouldn't have sent it. Read what it says, simply.
Your "if....then" makes no sense. Plus, to quote C.S.Lewis, "no-one is ever told what would have happened.
The original audience would not have understand these text the way we do today. There is no such thing as a plain reading of the text. It’s an ancient document with their own cultural references. You couldn’t even read a document from 500 years ago and know what it means without understanding the circumstances of why it was written.
Sorry jamesmichael, Dr Wright isn’t being “clever”…he’s gently correcting a latter day misinterpretation about rapturing us “up” with a correct, Greek and Early Church understanding of the Lord coming “down” to reveal his glory in us who are Spirit-filled and transformed manner.
The so-called rapture out of this world is false teaching, an escape for the Fundy, American few. Your aversion mimics the “young earth” distortions of so many who prefer a Bob Jones or dispensationalist gibberish. Jesus never taught or alluded to this.
Well, you can't possibly know what it says outside of it's proper sociohistorical context.
What nonsense NT Wright talks It’s white noise. Means absolutely nothing like too guys talking about Gandalf beard and it importance’s to wizards 🧙♂️