I have been an avid Kokanee angler for 35 years. I caught my first Kokanee in Detroit Lake when I was 12 years old in 1962. Many fond memories of camping and fishing in that lake. I also remember when Green Peter had large Kokanee. Very insightful Tyler. Thank you.
We use to live in Albany, Oregon and in 1982 bought a boat. Had several people tell me to fish Green Peter for Kokanee. Had no idea what they were and had only caught stocked Trout. I did fish Winter Steelhead on the Alsea River bank fishing. I worked at the Alsea Ranger Station and a guy there helped me learn fishing for Steelhead and salmon. We had a lot of family camping trips at Green Peter and caught a lot of Kokanee. We didn't even try to catch Trout because the Kokanee were fun to catch and tasty on a campfire. Really a shame all of the Kokanee fishing is being destroyed by ignorant foolish people. Our legal system had become a weapon used by the special interest groups.
@Askeyb2011 It is one of many fronts that the federal government has instituted against its citizens. None of which hits home until they show up "in our backyard".
It is videos like these that make your channel great Tyler. Your vast knowledge of these subjects is not only super interesting to learn about, but also very informative and helpful. Bringing facts like these to the surface is great. As someone who doesn't live in the PNW, I would never know about these various good/bad conservation efforts without you sharing the details behind them. I very much appreciate it and I hope we get many more like it. I love the weekly fishing videos too, don't get me wrong, but throwing in some knowledge building is also wonderful.
Liked this informative video. Id sure be interested to hear what you thought about wild steelhead, brood stock programs, and hatcheries, and how they all intertwine. Pros and cons. Have a great one.
Thank you Tyler for making this video. Im a avid outdoorsman who loves fishing for all species, living in Sweethome minutes away from green peter and seeing what the draw down impact had on my community and fishery was devastating, now to hear they are repeating the process at Detroit is just appalling to me
Hey Tyler, I've been dreading listening to this one. As an Albany resident, the South Santiam the past two years has turned into a sluice box. That's not exaggeration. There's a clear difference no pun intended, in the shorelines between the North and South forks this past fall. Even before the second drawdown. The forks in Foster, show a massive difference in water quality during the drawdowns as well. FME, all the fish in Foster, go into the Cascadia branch during the drawdown. That's what I pick up on sonar, and visually. I imagine it's because of sediment load. These are full size fish, with large respiratory systems. I agree, cannot imagine smolts surviving at all during the 60 mi trip to the Willamette in that rolling mud. I agree that Mill City and Lyons, Satyton and the rest need to file injunctions. The cities of Albany Lebanon and Sweet Home have. The Santiam proper, turned into a silt bed from the south being drawn down. And the confluence into the Willamette, had massive sediment deposits. Up to 2" in places from the first drawdown. The South Santiam from my experience, has been neutered. You used to be able to get big native trout out of there. They're gone, and silt beds are now where reeds used to be. There's also a healthy population of wild trout in the forks of Green Peter. Their population has decreased immensely FME as well. We've talked few times on Facebook and here about kayak setups. I along with probably a bunch of others, owe our mental stability, and the ability to generate more tax revenue through increased work productivity, thanks to fishing. This type of bad conservation, is a huge blow and as you mentioned, has far greater reach then I think these Cs get degrees conservationist understand. What boggles my mind is, why have they gone after the Winchester dam yet? Just because they put a fish cam in for publicity well.. that's a whole nother box of rebar.
Hey Tyler, we as a community need to hear more straight forward talks like this about the real issues facing the Northwest. You did an amazing job explaining the issues. Thank you!!😁
I appreciate your nuanced views. I also love how you mention there is information you can interpret and then there is fact. The way in which you discuss carries over into many parts of our society and why we are so divided as a nation.
Green petter was also becoming a world class bass fishing reservoir too , but i have lots of good memories kokanee fishing GP too i haven't ever fished Derroit lol
Very informative video on a very difficult discussion. The damage has been immense, Another topic is all the warm water fish that have been shifted out of these reservoirs and into the Willamette system, walleye in particular from Look Out. I have heard very little of that being talked about.
Long time viewer here as well. Really appreciate all this information and thoughtful perspective on the sport. It was a little long but I watched the whole thing and I'm glad because you wrapped up with some very important perspectives as well. But the stats on the devastating effects of removing the damns is critical information that more people need to be aware of. Thank you for this video!
@@spiltmilt Last year, Biden was working with OR, WA and tribal leaders to push through a plan to breach the 4 dams on the snake despite having zero data that it would actually help. It's been a huge battle and this kind of info can help expose the fact that it is a horrific idea. We also had a record salmon run last year despite the massive increase in Sea Lions and Pelicans on the Columbia.
Uhhmmm they is a ton of evidence that breaching the Snake River dams would help salmon. Last years "record" salmon run was Sockeye Salmon which are teetering on extinction on the Snake. If we removed those dams we could blow last year's numbers out of the water.
@@spiltmilt They are great engineers and builders. They've done some really amazing things. Here comes the "but." Indeed they have needed projects in the pipeline to stay mobilized and staffed. But i think they contributed to the politics that lead to dams being built that weren't necessary or economically sound as projects. The fish passage issue is huge to many of us. I'm 71 and witnessed first hand the further depleted runs and the giant transfer of wealth from coastal and river economies when the LSR dams were built. A saying was, will the last person out of Ilwaco please turn out the lights. The fish were hurt and peoples livelihoods were hurt. Thanks for listening.
Tyler, you did your homework. Thank you for explaining a complex situation. The CORPS has had over 15 years to provide passage at dams in the Willamette basin, but instead have kick the can down the road. People should look at the PGE's Clackamas River North Fork Dam downstream passage system; 7 mile pipe. It's a great example of how to get salmonids pass a dam. They passed over 1 million juvenile salmonids in each of the past two years and have had great returns of adult spring Chinook, coho and steelhead.
Spot on. Your comparison using upland game hunters is best I've heard. Many other Spring Chinook runs in rivers with NO DAMS are facing near extinction indicating uncontrollable cyclic run changes. Best salmon return ever recorded on Columbia/Snake (2001) was with present dams in place plus vigorous barging. Barge baby barge!
I am not a avid fisherman but i know the feeling a get when i get a fish on the line and the drive up to Detroit is beautiful. What information or who do i contact the right people to get involved in our preservation of all our fish. If you can send me or post it for all to see that would be appreciated.
First, thank you for the awesome videos. I really enjoy watching your content and learning from you. I was last out on Green Peter in mid September of 2024, hoping to land a few Kokanee. The water was low then too, well below the boat ramps. Luckily my boat is a 12ft mini boat I built, so it was light enough for me to pull my truck down far enough to launch. While we did land some okay rainbows, no Kokanee. It really blows to see what’s happening here in the Willamette Valley.
Thank you Tyler! Your combination of conservation biology and love of the outdoors/sportsmanship is very rare. Its scary to see the organizations that are supposed to protect recreational opportunities of hunting and fishing literally go out of their way to do the exact opposite and just operate on the vibes and feelings that are hip but have no basis in reality or research. A dangerous precedent was set when the WA spring bear hunt was stopped a few years ago and still hasn’t been brought back. And the future is looking any better for us, especially with the new governor and the out going governor’s appointments. It really sucks to pay for a license to know that money will be used against us.
Unfortunately the composition of the fish and game commission isn't looking any better. I don't have high hopes. However, everything mentioned in this video was federal gov't, tribal, or private organization driven. ODFW and WDFW take the blame for a lot of things they simply have no control over unfortunately.
@@spiltmilt very true that they get blamed for stuff that they don’t control, and a lot of the time the good work of the boots on the ground agency employees gets overshadowed by the appointed people at the top. Would love to hear your opinion on the Ruckelshaus report and if there’s actually any feasible options to fix this.
@@spiltmilt what’s the summary on what’s good and bad in option 3? I’ve read it but I’m pretty sure I don’t have a full grasp of the verbiage or full context of how some of those recommendations would have adverse effects. I would love to see a rule where If you get 100k signatures you can recall a commissioner, seems fair enough but I doubt it would even be considered
Just an incredible discussion. Coming from an honest conservationist biologist, this is excellent information. I hope you get out and speak to more groups, especially our fisher people groups. I hope you will do more of this. I learned more from you in this video than I have learned for years. I tried to join your patreon page but can not find the page to join. Please refer me.
I live 10 minutes from Wickiup and Crane prairie, train stays pretty full but Wickiup has been constantly low for a long time, the river below Wickiup is down to what I would consider to be a trickle. This year should be a better year because of all the snow we've had. Your insight is always nice to have especially when it comes to Stillwater management.
The upland game analogy is solid. We don’t have to eradicate bass and walleye and non native trout to save native salmon and steelhead, just like you wouldn’t eradicate pheasant to save sage grouse. Example: I catch 5 lb smallmouth out of the Umpqua. Yes they eat a lot of smolts but they’re also a blast to catch! Huge pros and cons and people have strong opinions on both sides. They’re not going anywhere is the bottom line. They have to plan their fisheries management around them now. There is no magic wand that will make everything go back to the 1800’s where its native species only. We have to make the best of what we have with the diversity of species and how we can best manage them to create some kick ass fisheries and simultaneously protect native species while providing enough water for human use. Fish and wildlife conservation and resource management is a convoluted mess but I agree with alot of your ideas and solutions. From what I’ve seen in my career if ESA gets involved there’s always serious collateral damage. I hate to see that be the Kokanee in Detroit!
As someone who has family on the North Santiam, this really pisses me off. What I want to do immediately, would not be productive or legal, so I will share this video to hopefully get the word out and start there.
First love everything you do super next level knowledgeable about my lifelong favorite hobby I grew up in linn county 15 miles or so from lebanon so I can tell you are not local because it is bastardized the way people who are born and raised in the willamette valley . Pronounce it like lebuhnin. not lebonon you it sounds crazy to anyone not born and raised here but I Never would pronounce it properly because everyone would think I am from cali . its weird whats moree strange is When I moved back here 2 or so years ago they destroyed kokanee fishing just when finally got a proper boat. We thought that we could just take the boat kokanee fishing. head east be there not a long drive . NOW It would take an at least 2hr drive to just find a lake with koke's and a bummer . our primary thing is salmon steelhead going to go after sturgeon fishing on the willamette. thanks I love your vids it gives me more knowledge about hatcheries than besides when I have gone to them in 4h
Great stuff! The program 'Oregon Outdoors" had an episode called 'Hot Fish, Cold Fish" where OFW employees were emotionally jumping up and down after seeing fish returning to the base of the dam caused by the newly built temperature control tower built at Cougar reservoir on the McKenzie River. Their overwhelming response, as shown on the video I think ultimately caused so much pressure (on ODFW) they removed the original version of 'Hot Fish, Cold Fish' and replace it with another version that talked about the positive results in a much more bland, calmer fashion in what I believe is to down play the success of fish returning to Cougar Dam resulting from the temperature selection tower. I can't remember the huge cost of the temperature selection tower, but this is probably why its not considered as a viable option today. However, I talked to the owner of the construction company who built the temperature tower and he said it was overbuilt (a waste of money) and could have been totally simplified, built offsite using metal framing, hauled in on a couple of semi trucks and bolted in place on top of the existing spillway. I think this would be possible since controlling water temperature is limited to a certain range of water depth specific to each reservoir thus eliminating the need for an multi-positional inlet on the control tower. If all the Willamette dams had temperature selection/control devices, the salmon would migrate in (and out), hatch, find the appropriated food sources (due to proper temperature for its prey development, etc) and essentially grow all at the appropriate time. Meanwhile, this correct water temperature will induce migration into all those side creek and streams, for example Mosby Creek which is overshadowed by the temperature impairment caused by Dorena and Cottage Grove reservoirs. Meanwhile, look for mercury in the sediment that is being released from Detroit Dam. For example, DEQ measures (at least in their past history...) measured mercury 4 times a year to get an average mercury concentration coming from Dorena reservior. Since some of their sampling is take at low flow volumes, their (303 ?....I have forgotten all these numbers) report shows a low level of mercury. Years ago, I measured the mercury concentration coming from Dorena during high flows, known as flood management, and found the following: The amount of mercury that DEQ says comes out of Dorena reservoir in one year actually happens in 3.5 days during a typical high flow event. I used the same testing lab as they do, a lab in Seattle Washington. I have sent DEQ these numbers and also sent these numbers to the EPA regional office in Seattle. Keep up the good hunt for data.
Very interesting post on a situation that seems to be headed towards a bad solution. ACE is probably going to stick with the lowest cost solution, which will actually have a higher cost over the years. Hopefully those that are directly impacted are working to help bring about a better course of action. Not much I can do here in Arizona but I'm will to assist if I can. Thanks again for raising my awareness and appreciate what you do.
The system your talking about around 18:00 minutes in i believe is the same system they use at the round butte dam on lake billy chinook on the deschutes system in central oregon. I’ve taken a tour of that facility through a class at Oregon state. Seems to be working somewhat effectively as we’re seeing steelhead returns in the tributaries above lake billy chinook. Notably on the metolius. It is definitely a complex system though with lots of on hands works and people checking the traps daily in the lake and in the river below. But most importantly it preserves the Kokanee and that population of bull trout in lake billy and the metolius.
They use the same system on Baker Lake in Washington and its helped drive the recovery of that wild Sockeye Salmon fishery to the point that harvest has been allowed now for many years annually.
Thank you Tyler. Interested in your opinion on flood control dams and the inverse flows as they relate to smolt production. I’m referring to the fact that they draw down reservoirs in the fall (when historically river flows are low) and retain water to fill reservoirs in the spring (when river flows are high). To what degree do you think this is impacting salmon/steelhead production?
That mis-match of flow timings has very real implications for out migrating smolts. The longer travel times due to lower flows make them susceptible to predation from native predators (e.g. pike minnow & birds) and non-native predators (e.g. bass and walleye). They've seen really positive results from salmon in systems where they at least try and mimic spring flooding.
Angler apothy is one of he greatest that's to future angler opportunities. Anglers are always an easy sell to give current opportunities in exchangefor increased opportunities that never materialize.
Really great video I didn't know about the draining of the reservoirs. What an ABSOLUTELY insane story! I honestly think the commercial fisheries through huge financial contributions has basically fully copted the conversation around salmon rehabilitation... Not to mention they basically have tax payers subsiding their ENTIRE INDUSTRY via hatchery programs. No hatcheries no commerical fishing. Basically the angler is like the non unionized worker, who gets shit on by special interest groups, corporations and big unions. Sports fisherman definitely need more political representation and organization.
Thank you for this. I was guilty of falling into the category of undereducated folks who support anti fishing groups who disguise their cause by playing on peoples love for native fish. Unfortunately they’re giving support to groups that take away fishing opportunity, and do not bolster fish populations . My number one bit of advice to anyone who supports or gives money to organizations that file lawsuits that lead to things like draining the reservoirs is Volunteer your time to fisheries and wildlife work and educate yourselves the best you can before you decide where your time and money is going. If you want more fish and more fishing opportunity, throwing your time and dollars at places like native fish society is not going to accomplish either of those. Take it from someone who started fly fishing and joining the native fish fad at a young age, then formed a more educated and informed opinion over time through volunteer fishery and habitat work. Not all is as it seems.
Its a hard needle to thread because its a complicated topic especially considering the fragmented nature of some of these group. I see work by Trout Unlimited in Montana and Pennsylvania being done to bolster non-native Brown Trout while they work simultaneously here to squash fishing opportunity.
@ I have done volunteer work with the local trout unlimited chapter in my part of the valley as well as my Local soil and water conservation district and Odfw, both singularly and in partnership Type projects, and I whole heartedly agree with your assessment of that with trout unlimited. The problem is that a lot of these projects are hand in hand with groups like NFS. And so all of the Time and money and volunteer hours spent gathering data is then cherry picked to like you say in the video, to fit a specific agenda and paint the picture they want in a courtroom. Even though it could be the exact opposite of what the biologists and their aides and volunteers are seeing in the field. Days where a fish or wildlife biologist word based off their data in terms of managing fish and wildlife and habitat are seemingly gone. Which is very sad because the gross amount of mismanagement in fish and wildlife and their habitats based on overly biased agenda is really just taking more and more away. Bad news for people who not only enjoy the outdoors but also those who enjoy their freedoms to fish hunt and harvest for their families. The crazy part is this isn’t even a political party line type problem even though there are political roots in some of it, like with most Things. There needs to be a better process for how laws,rules, and legislation in general is set for these types of issues, especially with how large the economic impacts are.
A major problem is that the legislative procedures that normally one could follow to address these issues are so deeply seized up and non-functional due to hyper-partisanship that the judicial branch is the only thing left. Its also ill equipped and easily biased.
@ what a crap shoot. I appreciate your advocacy for the benefit of fisheries and local economies as well as changes to management. Wish we had more like you!
I remeber when we replaced one of the colverts on the johnson creek in riverside, trout unlimited tried to say that all the brook trout were gonna get relocated as they were getting shovked and taking them out.. i then over heard the other dude say they were going to dispatch them to make sure no one saw 😂😂 @spiltmilt
I was relieved when you said this won’t be happening to merwin and yale… I had no idea about that crazy artificial migration process. I appreciate your perspective on this issue, based on the results from Green Peter this seems insane.
Wow, great video, even if no fish seen! I agree. And as you were explaining about the frog, I felt the frog conservation issue is more defendable on the merits or morals. Conservation took a left turn decades ago, and they've been steadily losing me. My fundamental problem with the system we have now is that there are choices to be made, these are difficult, complicated choices with no 'right' answer. But the states are behaving differently. They are behaving as if there is only one right answer, and they are pursuing it. And they are studiously ignoring the voices of key stakeholders. That system can't hold.
Thanks for doing the important work Tyler. Hopefully it will enlighten some that typically write off this type of information as hyperbole. My father was the 2nd flyfishing guide on the Deschutes and has breakfast weekly with Don Ratliff of Portland General Electric (their fish biologist) who was the biggest proponent of the so called "fish tower" at pelton dam. They argue tirelessly like old dudes do about the effects it has had on the lower Deschutes. Initially the selling point was to bring spawning chinook back to the Deschutes, crooked and metolious rivers. Well, not working. The temps. On the Deschutes have risen rapidly, the major hatches are diminished and occur later every year. Mostly, I'm referring to the formerly robust salmon fly hatch. There are now bass and walleye moving farther and farther upstream. Interesting that the salmon species we leave alone such as pinks and chums are thriving.
We are def not leaving Pinks and Chums alone. We are pumping millions of them into the ocean and doing an insane amount of restoration to improve those species returns.
@ I did not know this. I was mostly referring to hatchery propagation. I lived in NW Gig Harbor for 25 years and noticed the increasing demand for chum eggs as I watched the circle netting from my deck. (Assuming it is related to the demand for the roe in some countries). I sincerely enjoy your videos. Especially since moving back to Bend and having to focus more on Kokanee. Paulina has been my most productive water in recent years. Very reliable lake, and we were catching 14-15" Kokanee towards the end of the season. Thanks again.
I would think with what we have seen with the fires in CA and lack of water after removing 3 reservoirs we could rally around preventing this from happening using that as an example on top of all the issues you brought up. On a side note, I wish you well and hope you don't have to move out of the area. Thank you for all the great videos and help you provide!
Thank you, I love this kind of content. Would the compatible be the recent drawdown of Wickiup? What has the impact on kokanee been from the drawdown at Wickiup?
It’s not about the fish . It’s about controlling the WATER , LAND and PEOPLE ! In Utah they killed whole lakes full of beautiful Yellowstone Cutthroat trout averaging 2-4 lbs. They claimed to do it for Colorado River Cutthroat trout that were not endangered only threatened ! These fish averaged Less than one pound and averaged 12 inches . Which when planted they were to be immediately released if caught by fishermen . Then they made that lake a place where lures and fly fishing only was allowed . Many areas where these fish were planted they also closed off areas that normally were used to access streams . The most stupid part is the Colorado River Cutthroat planted were raised in a fish hatchery !
Thank you for doing this. Most anglers simply do not understand how the new breed of PNW politics is directly connected to our fisheries. Been saying it for years, maybe it will sink in with you telling them.
The pressing question isn’t just about the lawsuit over dam adjustments and removals-it’s about transparency. If legal battles concerning the salmon and their passage have been ongoing since the 1970s, why wasn’t the broader community adequately informed? A federal court order has been in motion far longer than many realize, yet it seems this issue wasn’t prioritized until it became an unavoidable mandate. Oregon had ample time to prepare and address the situation, yet the state’s inaction speaks volumes. This isn’t just about fish, as some might assume-it’s about honoring tribal sovereignty and the restoration of a primary and sacred food source for Indigenous communities. The salmon issue ties directly to cultural preservation, ecological balance, and federal commitments to Native tribes. The consequences now extend far beyond the ecological impact, forcing us to reckon with a history of neglect. It’s a complex and challenging situation, but ignoring it is no longer an option.
Why don't they just use fish gulpers (surface floating collectors or SFC) to intercept the out migrating juvenile fish to be trucked down stream the same way Puget Sound Energy does it on Baker Lake and Baker River? Because of Money! I work at that facility in the spring and it is state of the art and expensive to build and run but worth it. So, I'm just re-iterating and backing what you are saying. And, the Army Corp is just being too cheap. Surface Floating Collector is what they call it at Baker Lake, some DFW employees call them (the SFC) "fish gulpers."
Is it not also true that the annual drawdowns could result in an improved Kokanee fishery - smaller numbers but possible return to trophy sizes? Is downstream sediment a temporary problem that would largely take care of itself over time - especially with annual drawdowns mitigation huge accumulation of sediment behind the dam year after year? But it’s surely going to be an eyesore no matter what during months when water levels are low.
That was my original hope with Green Peter. However, it appears the drawdown killed all the fish. No spawners were observed the following fall. Therefore it seems likely that Detroit will suffer the same fate.
@@spiltmilt I respect your knowledge and your opinions Tyler. And not to belabor the point, but didn’t drawdowns at the Wickiup result in noticeable larger Kokanee? But don’t say that too loud!😂
A lot of good info here Tyler. It drives me nuts seeing the courts being the one driving wildlife management. It is also hard to see people fishing for hatchery salmon/steelhead complaining about some of these "conservation" groups sporting gear of companies that are contributing huge dollars annually to these groups to help them file these court cases. I also think it is strange that fish are viewed differently than say game mammals. If a fish stock is in trouble you cannot bring fish in from another river system (even though there is straying in nature, about 10% with steelhead) but if an elk or bighorn sheep population is depressed they trap animals from healthy populations and bring them in and are celebrated. Baffles me. Keep up the good work.
We have a number of fishing organizations and haven't heard much. Also where is Kokanee Power of Oregon? Kokanee Power has been silent or not making any effort to do anything to fight what is happening. Who is going to join a Kokanee group and no Kokanee to fish for. There are protected Chinook in these lakes already that likely got killed going through the dams.
I also know the problem with Central Oregon’s, water problem, and a lot of it has to do with all the golf courses and the way that they top water the grass. They should all be converted to sub surface drips systems, and that would cut back on water usage. It would be more effective more efficientand cost-effective too many golf courses in Central Oregon. It’s a desert they water too much.
I don’t understand why they wouldn’t make fish passage possible because the steelhead that try to return to ocean probably have high mortality too trying to drop down river through the dams and turbines. Which is a big reason I think they’ve seen continuous decreased returns to that water shed. Such a beautiful river above and below the dams, truly is shame
So many memories were made on that lake😔. Do you think that the Klamath dam removal is causing a "flow" (salmon are always going with the flow😂) that may result in the Detroit lake damn being removed? I also think that salmon and steelhead anglers such as myself would push for this removal as this would result in an outstanding sea-run fish numbers (most likely).
I don't think Detroit dam will be removed. Its built for flood control primarily and its removal would threaten enough lives and property that it can't be removed (for now).
I’m not much of an activist but I’m a bit curious about what you said about getting involved as a community. I’d be interested in knowing more about getting more involved. Probably not gonna start making any Molotovs anytime soon but I bet most every angler you’d ask would be happy to help.
This will literally kill all the Kokanee! Per Army Corps Engineer 0 fish survived, it killed all fish in Green Peter! This whole thing needs to stop. Like the hell with the salmon, it's normal worth it.
I don't fish for Kokenee as of yet, but I am an avid Salmon/Steelhead fisherman and it has been my experience for the last two decades in Oregon of very poor decisions for any type of management and conversation efforts equaling laziness and bad attitudes and disposition of those in control. There are many examples to fortify my concerns, but the one that seems to be forgotten is the world renowned Deschutes river which once had a fantastic spring Chinook salmon fishery and now struggles to even have a season. Nowadays I don't believe in natural disasters as much as I do in the mismanagement of over fishing by the ever increasing numbers of ignorant fishermen who th8nka that is what's going on at the moment.
Bass fishing isn't my jam but the more sportfishing that gets done, the stronger our voice can be with legislators. And those folks fishing bass are not fishing for the species I'm after, which means more room for me and less pressure for the fish I am targeting. And vice versa, I'm not impacting the bass fishing community in any negative way by fishing elsewhere. Seems like win-win for everyone to join together as anglers and not segment ourselves as X species fishers.
I agree with everything you said except Crane Prairie is most definitely a reservoir, not a naturally occurring lake. 30 plus years ago you could still see the tree lines from the river channels. Now they have all rotten and broke off.
there might be a tiny bright-side in that folks might start to target Kokanee more in Timothy and those fish might start to get a little larger. If you haven't vertical jigged them in the north arm before it might produce a vids worth of content haha.
Loved the "straight talk" even when you made us swallow some bitter medicine. Too bad there isn't a way to make the Army Corps pony up for some of the damage . . . that way they wouldn't implement the "cheapo" solutions. Seriously, put up a bond for a "smolt diversion system" and charge every property owner in Willamette Valley 1 dollar per 100,000. (this would generate about $800k in Washington County alone). It would certainly take less that 20 years to pay off a $60M dollar bond. Two to five dollars a year for "flood insurance" is pretty cheap by today's prices. We just need people to get be allowed to "get some skin in the game" and implement good solutions as opposed to bad conservation by legal torts.
so for my life time i have been told that hatcheries receive a 2% return on a salmon spawn. when was that number established . In the 50S??? the environment has changed for the worse.
I think I would disagree that people talking about non native animals doesn't just show up in fish, rabbits on Orcas island, non native snakes, and eguana, lion fish in the Caribbean. Rats mongoose, pigs, and chickens in Hawaii and most pacific islands(even if they were bought by Polynesians). Wild pigs in the South. Goats on the big island. I get that Kokanee are an amazing and super desirable option for our high mountain lakes, but if the argument is between Salmon who used to spawn in numbers we can't even comprehend and saving a fishery that is so small when compared to the far reaching effects of the salmon fishery it kinda seems like a no brainer. However, I can appreciate that there is far more nuance to this topic, and do agree that in the end they could have found a way to make it work for both situations.
There are nuances for sure. There is a big difference between exotic and invasive as well. That being said bass in a pond in eastern Washington don’t really represent a threat to salmon but a lot of folks pretend they do
The point of contention is that #1. There is no evidence as of yet that this will actually work. #2. They are demonstrably better ways to achieve the same outcome (proven) without destroying these fisheries as well eliminating impacts on drinking water and turbidity. Its kind of hard to miss if you have common sense.
It's important to remember that the ESA (as the name states) is about endangered species. There are few, it any legal mechanisms available to protect ecosystems. This often results in a particular species being chosen to enact ESA law with the hope it will help not only that species but many species within an ecosystem. Spotted Owls, Snail Darter, Spotted Frogs all come to mind as species used to trigger ESA protection. I agree with most everything you said but I'm curious about the "fish vacuum". At a cost of 60 million dollars and a return of 200,000 smolts, $300 per fish was spend. I understand that this structure continues to operate but I also understand that there are operating costs and a finite period of time for this structure to be operational. Do you think this is a viable, long term approach to salmon recovery in the region?
They have been using the same system for Baker Lake Sockeye Salmon in north-central WA. That has been so successful that it has created one of the greatest recovery stories in salmon history. Now its one of the best fisheries for Sockeye in the state and more often than not returns far exceed what is expected.
To add insult and more injury, the Lower Deschutes is a mess due to Pelton Round Butte Dam and the Selective Water Withdrawal Tower. It's been pretty devastating to the native Redband Trout and native Bull Trout in the Warm Springs area.
i am short on information of Green Peter. It was a 3 day massive dump this last fall; but the trial was in 2021 - was there a dump (less rapidly) in 2022? If so, it would appear that a slower drawdown might accomplish passage of native juvenile salmon without the disruption of the kokanee (and trout, and bass, and etc. of whatever else swims in these pools. It would be nice to see Congress direct the Corps to what was accomplished above Merwin - but I woun't hold my breath.
I believe in the 60’s when these dams were constructed the engineers had engineered plans for appropriate fish ladders that maintained the ambient temperatures for the fish to pass successfully over the structure so there wouldn’t be a problem with the dam itself. From what I understand during construction the contractor omitted that part of the project for reasons that I really don’t know. So potentially all these problems we are having now could have been avoided. Also you have to understand the commercial fisheries industry that will fold when the salmon are gone. So there is no win win for anyone. Just one point Kokanee are not native even though they are a huge part of the economy. Thanks for the insight.
I do point out they are non-native. Also Willamette wild Chinook stocks are so depleted they have almost no relevance in commercial fishing at this point.
When I saw your recent video about the uncertain future of your career, my first thought was that maybe Tyler will start the Spilt Milt Foundation for environmental policy, advocacy, and education. Our country needs your voice to reach beyond your UA-cam audience. And I bet you would be shocked at the skills and resources your subscribers would be excited to donate. I just don't know how the economics of environmental nonprofits work, aside from seeking grants. How do you get watershed economies to hire you to prevent these ecological disasters?
Why can’t you get an engineer to check about running a ladder to a lower dam and sacrifice the lower lake and save the upper lake. Also I would think there’s more than one reason for the salmon and steelhead going endangered at this time. Also would be a nice idea to work with the tribes to solve the problem and find a cheap way of saving the species. Thanks was a good talk and get depressed about the future of fishing
I’ll be at the next city hall meeting in Salem to bring this up - I’ll keep going until I get an answer directly from the mayor herself. If we don’t sue and it ruins our drinking water here in Salem - I will run against her in the next election!
Sounds like they are doing some great work to restore Salmon and Steelhead habitat. Stocked Kokanee and trout should take a back burner to native salmon and steelhead runs. The dams shouldn’t be there at all. Almost every Kokanee fishery in Washington and Oregon was built over steelhead and salmon spawning habitat or blocking steelhead and salmon spawning habitat. I refuse to accept Kokanee as a trade for robust Salmon and Steelhead runs.
@@AustinHelmer-yy3wk to answer that question all you have to do is look at Green Peters Reservoir. It's not as much as prioritizing a certain fish, but finding a better way than killing off most of the population of Kokanee. My question is that these dams have been there for decades. Why is this an issue now? I saw the video, I know about the court injunctions. But this is so frustrating .
i live at gold beach rogue. for third year in a row California will be closed ocean and rivers to salmon. all the guides from CA are bringing their customers six a boat load up every fall to pound the rogue. a guide that owns a rv park told me yesterday that he has 38 new guides in his park. still odfw allowing two fish per day. the extra pressure along with the extra success that the 360 flashers will bring the end to this wild fishery. pump the brakes the rogue cant make all the CA guides 2k boat payments sorry.
Blame both extremist groups and our legal system for being venerable legal system that has no idea what they are judging on. Any angler with a number of years experience and especially Salmon and Steelhead anglers would have common sense that creating wild runs behind dams never built for fish passage is a fool's idea. A lot of work could be done where it would make a difference to help wild fish.
The fishing community is HUGE and out numbers any conservational group, but.... they are a non-collected group that isn't able to as a whole fight back against the smaller but better collected conservational groups, hence why the fishing community always loses. Look at deep sea fishing too, this year you get to keep 4, that's right, 4 bottom fish on a charter trip. The Willamette valley fishing now constitutes catching really yummy stocker trout... All hail the unicorn fish!
Thanks for raising important fish management topics. Your insight and analysis is always top notch!
Thank you. Appreciate your support.
As an avid viewer, I LOVED this long form rant/educational talk. All of this is very interesting and I hope to see a few more videos like this.
I have been an avid Kokanee angler for 35 years. I caught my first Kokanee in Detroit Lake when I was 12 years old in 1962. Many fond memories of camping and fishing in that lake. I also remember when Green Peter had large Kokanee. Very insightful Tyler. Thank you.
When I was 11, I caught an 18-inch kokanee and it was the thrill of my young life.
We use to live in Albany, Oregon and in 1982 bought a boat. Had several people tell me to fish Green Peter for Kokanee. Had no idea what they were and had only caught stocked Trout. I did fish Winter Steelhead on the Alsea River bank fishing. I worked at the Alsea Ranger Station and a guy there helped me learn fishing for Steelhead and salmon. We had a lot of family camping trips at Green Peter and caught a lot of Kokanee. We didn't even try to catch Trout because the Kokanee were fun to catch and tasty on a campfire. Really a shame all of the Kokanee fishing is being destroyed by ignorant foolish people. Our legal system had become a weapon used by the special interest groups.
@Askeyb2011
It is one of many fronts that the federal government has instituted against its citizens. None of which hits home until they show up "in our backyard".
It is videos like these that make your channel great Tyler. Your vast knowledge of these subjects is not only super interesting to learn about, but also very informative and helpful. Bringing facts like these to the surface is great. As someone who doesn't live in the PNW, I would never know about these various good/bad conservation efforts without you sharing the details behind them. I very much appreciate it and I hope we get many more like it. I love the weekly fishing videos too, don't get me wrong, but throwing in some knowledge building is also wonderful.
Liked this informative video. Id sure be interested to hear what you thought about wild steelhead, brood stock programs, and hatcheries, and how they all intertwine. Pros and cons. Have a great one.
Thank you Tyler for making this video. Im a avid outdoorsman who loves fishing for all species, living in Sweethome minutes away from green peter and seeing what the draw down impact had on my community and fishery was devastating, now to hear they are repeating the process at Detroit is just appalling to me
Hey Tyler, I've been dreading listening to this one. As an Albany resident, the South Santiam the past two years has turned into a sluice box. That's not exaggeration. There's a clear difference no pun intended, in the shorelines between the North and South forks this past fall. Even before the second drawdown. The forks in Foster, show a massive difference in water quality during the drawdowns as well. FME, all the fish in Foster, go into the Cascadia branch during the drawdown. That's what I pick up on sonar, and visually. I imagine it's because of sediment load. These are full size fish, with large respiratory systems. I agree, cannot imagine smolts surviving at all during the 60 mi trip to the Willamette in that rolling mud. I agree that Mill City and Lyons, Satyton and the rest need to file injunctions. The cities of Albany Lebanon and Sweet Home have. The Santiam proper, turned into a silt bed from the south being drawn down. And the confluence into the Willamette, had massive sediment deposits. Up to 2" in places from the first drawdown.
The South Santiam from my experience, has been neutered. You used to be able to get big native trout out of there. They're gone, and silt beds are now where reeds used to be.
There's also a healthy population of wild trout in the forks of Green Peter. Their population has decreased immensely FME as well.
We've talked few times on Facebook and here about kayak setups. I along with probably a bunch of others, owe our mental stability, and the ability to generate more tax revenue through increased work productivity, thanks to fishing.
This type of bad conservation, is a huge blow and as you mentioned, has far greater reach then I think these Cs get degrees conservationist understand.
What boggles my mind is, why have they gone after the Winchester dam yet? Just because they put a fish cam in for publicity well.. that's a whole nother box of rebar.
Hey Tyler, we as a community need to hear more straight forward talks like this about the real issues facing the Northwest. You did an amazing job explaining the issues.
Thank you!!😁
Thank you. I tried to be as objective as possible.
I appreciate your nuanced views. I also love how you mention there is information you can interpret and then there is fact. The way in which you discuss carries over into many parts of our society and why we are so divided as a nation.
Wow, this is great commentary! I think you may be lighting a fire in me. Thank you very much!
Green petter was also becoming a world class bass fishing reservoir too , but i have lots of good memories kokanee fishing GP too i haven't ever fished Derroit lol
Very informative video on a very difficult discussion. The damage has been immense, Another topic is all the warm water fish that have been shifted out of these reservoirs and into the Willamette system, walleye in particular from Look Out. I have heard very little of that being talked about.
Yah this almost certainly accelerated Walleye colonization of the Willamette.
@@spiltmiltDefinitly. My family was harvesting a lot of walleye from LookOut before the draw down.
Wonderful video thanks for taking the time to talk about this
Long time viewer here as well. Really appreciate all this information and thoughtful perspective on the sport. It was a little long but I watched the whole thing and I'm glad because you wrapped up with some very important perspectives as well. But the stats on the devastating effects of removing the damns is critical information that more people need to be aware of. Thank you for this video!
They aren’t removing the dams though
@@spiltmilt Last year, Biden was working with OR, WA and tribal leaders to push through a plan to breach the 4 dams on the snake despite having zero data that it would actually help. It's been a huge battle and this kind of info can help expose the fact that it is a horrific idea. We also had a record salmon run last year despite the massive increase in Sea Lions and Pelicans on the Columbia.
Uhhmmm they is a ton of evidence that breaching the Snake River dams would help salmon. Last years "record" salmon run was Sockeye Salmon which are teetering on extinction on the Snake. If we removed those dams we could blow last year's numbers out of the water.
Great insights! Thank you for making people aware of what’s happening and why. Appreciate your thoughts - bring them on.
The Corps of Engineers has already well proven they don't have a clue how to get salmon and steelhead past dams, alive that is.
Its strange because I've worked with the corps on upland prairie restoration and endangered species and they were the best land managers.
@@spiltmilt They are great engineers and builders. They've done some really amazing things. Here comes the "but." Indeed they have needed projects in the pipeline to stay mobilized and staffed. But i think they contributed to the politics that lead to dams being built that weren't necessary or economically sound as projects. The fish passage issue is huge to many of us. I'm 71 and witnessed first hand the further depleted runs and the giant transfer of wealth from coastal and river economies when the LSR dams were built. A saying was, will the last person out of Ilwaco please turn out the lights. The fish were hurt and peoples livelihoods were hurt. Thanks for listening.
@spiltmilt They're great Land managers.. but Suck at managing Fish
Tyler, you did your homework. Thank you for explaining a complex situation. The CORPS has had over 15 years to provide passage at dams in the Willamette basin, but instead have kick the can down the road. People should look at the PGE's Clackamas River North Fork Dam downstream passage system; 7 mile pipe. It's a great example of how to get salmonids pass a dam. They passed over 1 million juvenile salmonids in each of the past two years and have had great returns of adult spring Chinook, coho and steelhead.
Spot on. Your comparison using upland game hunters is best I've heard. Many other Spring Chinook runs in rivers with NO DAMS are facing near extinction indicating uncontrollable cyclic run changes. Best salmon return ever recorded on Columbia/Snake (2001) was with present dams in place plus vigorous barging. Barge baby barge!
Bingo 💯
I am not a avid fisherman but i know the feeling a get when i get a fish on the line and the drive up to Detroit is beautiful. What information or who do i contact the right people to get involved in our preservation of all our fish. If you can send me or post it for all to see that would be appreciated.
First, thank you for the awesome videos. I really enjoy watching your content and learning from you.
I was last out on Green Peter in mid September of 2024, hoping to land a few Kokanee. The water was low then too, well below the boat ramps. Luckily my boat is a 12ft mini boat I built, so it was light enough for me to pull my truck down far enough to launch.
While we did land some okay rainbows, no Kokanee. It really blows to see what’s happening here in the Willamette Valley.
Thank you Tyler! Your combination of conservation biology and love of the outdoors/sportsmanship is very rare. Its scary to see the organizations that are supposed to protect recreational opportunities of hunting and fishing literally go out of their way to do the exact opposite and just operate on the vibes and feelings that are hip but have no basis in reality or research. A dangerous precedent was set when the WA spring bear hunt was stopped a few years ago and still hasn’t been brought back.
And the future is looking any better for us, especially with the new governor and the out going governor’s appointments.
It really sucks to pay for a license to know that money will be used against us.
Unfortunately the composition of the fish and game commission isn't looking any better. I don't have high hopes.
However, everything mentioned in this video was federal gov't, tribal, or private organization driven. ODFW and WDFW take the blame for a lot of things they simply have no control over unfortunately.
@@spiltmilt very true that they get blamed for stuff that they don’t control, and a lot of the time the good work of the boots on the ground agency employees gets overshadowed by the appointed people at the top.
Would love to hear your opinion on the Ruckelshaus report and if there’s actually any feasible options to fix this.
I have read the report and agree a lot with what's said about the problems but strongly disagree with the proposed fixes.
@@spiltmilt what’s the summary on what’s good and bad in option 3? I’ve read it but I’m pretty sure I don’t have a full grasp of the verbiage or full context of how some of those recommendations would have adverse effects.
I would love to see a rule where If you get 100k signatures you can recall a commissioner, seems fair enough but I doubt it would even be considered
Thoughtful, knowledgeable discussion of some important issues. Thank you.
Just an incredible discussion. Coming from an honest conservationist biologist, this is excellent information. I hope you get out and speak to more groups, especially our fisher people groups. I hope you will do more of this. I learned more from you in this video than I have learned for years. I tried to join your patreon page but can not find the page to join. Please refer me.
Great video! I wish more people took your stance on these topics
Excellent presentation Tyler.
I live 10 minutes from Wickiup and Crane prairie, train stays pretty full but Wickiup has been constantly low for a long time, the river below Wickiup is down to what I would consider to be a trickle. This year should be a better year because of all the snow we've had. Your insight is always nice to have especially when it comes to Stillwater management.
The upland game analogy is solid. We don’t have to eradicate bass and walleye and non native trout to save native salmon and steelhead, just like you wouldn’t eradicate pheasant to save sage grouse. Example: I catch 5 lb smallmouth out of the Umpqua. Yes they eat a lot of smolts but they’re also a blast to catch! Huge pros and cons and people have strong opinions on both sides. They’re not going anywhere is the bottom line. They have to plan their fisheries management around them now. There is no magic wand that will make everything go back to the 1800’s where its native species only. We have to make the best of what we have with the diversity of species and how we can best manage them to create some kick ass fisheries and simultaneously protect native species while providing enough water for human use.
Fish and wildlife conservation and resource management is a convoluted mess but I agree with alot of your ideas and solutions. From what I’ve seen in my career if ESA gets involved there’s always serious collateral damage. I hate to see that be the Kokanee in Detroit!
Good data and unbiased opinions: the most endangered species. Thanks for your efforts.
As someone who has family on the North Santiam, this really pisses me off. What I want to do immediately, would not be productive or legal, so I will share this video to hopefully get the word out and start there.
First love everything you do super next level knowledgeable about my lifelong favorite hobby I grew up in linn county 15 miles or so from lebanon so I can tell you are not local because it is bastardized the way people who are born and raised in the willamette valley . Pronounce it like lebuhnin. not lebonon you it sounds crazy to anyone not born and raised here but I Never would pronounce it properly because everyone would think I am from cali . its weird whats moree strange is When I moved back here 2 or so years ago they destroyed kokanee fishing just when finally got a proper boat. We thought that we could just take the boat kokanee fishing. head east be there not a long drive . NOW It would take an at least 2hr drive to just find a lake with koke's and a bummer . our primary thing is salmon steelhead going to go after sturgeon fishing on the willamette. thanks I love your vids it gives me more knowledge about hatcheries than besides when I have gone to them in 4h
Thank you, this is well thought-out and clear.
Great stuff! The program 'Oregon Outdoors" had an episode called 'Hot Fish, Cold Fish" where OFW employees were emotionally jumping up and down after seeing fish returning to the base of the dam caused by the newly built temperature control tower built at Cougar reservoir on the McKenzie River. Their overwhelming response, as shown on the video I think ultimately caused so much pressure (on ODFW) they removed the original version of 'Hot Fish, Cold Fish' and replace it with another version that talked about the positive results in a much more bland, calmer fashion in what I believe is to down play the success of fish returning to Cougar Dam resulting from the temperature selection tower. I can't remember the huge cost of the temperature selection tower, but this is probably why its not considered as a viable option today. However, I talked to the owner of the construction company who built the temperature tower and he said it was overbuilt (a waste of money) and could have been totally simplified, built offsite using metal framing, hauled in on a couple of semi trucks and bolted in place on top of the existing spillway. I think this would be possible since controlling water temperature is limited to a certain range of water depth specific to each reservoir thus eliminating the need for an multi-positional inlet on the control tower.
If all the Willamette dams had temperature selection/control devices, the salmon would migrate in (and out), hatch, find the appropriated food sources (due to proper temperature for its prey development, etc) and essentially grow all at the appropriate time. Meanwhile, this correct water temperature will induce migration into all those side creek and streams, for example Mosby Creek which is overshadowed by the temperature impairment caused by Dorena and Cottage Grove reservoirs.
Meanwhile, look for mercury in the sediment that is being released from Detroit Dam. For example, DEQ measures (at least in their past history...) measured mercury 4 times a year to get an average mercury concentration coming from Dorena reservior. Since some of their sampling is take at low flow volumes, their (303 ?....I have forgotten all these numbers) report shows a low level of mercury. Years ago, I measured the mercury concentration coming from Dorena during high flows, known as flood management, and found the following: The amount of mercury that DEQ says comes out of Dorena reservoir in one year actually happens in 3.5 days during a typical high flow event. I used the same testing lab as they do, a lab in Seattle Washington. I have sent DEQ these numbers and also sent these numbers to the EPA regional office in Seattle.
Keep up the good hunt for data.
Very interesting post on a situation that seems to be headed towards a bad solution. ACE is probably going to stick with the lowest cost solution, which will actually have a higher cost over the years. Hopefully those that are directly impacted are working to help bring about a better course of action. Not much I can do here in Arizona but I'm will to assist if I can. Thanks again for raising my awareness and appreciate what you do.
The system your talking about around 18:00 minutes in i believe is the same system they use at the round butte dam on lake billy chinook on the deschutes system in central oregon. I’ve taken a tour of that facility through a class at Oregon state. Seems to be working somewhat effectively as we’re seeing steelhead returns in the tributaries above lake billy chinook. Notably on the metolius. It is definitely a complex system though with lots of on hands works and people checking the traps daily in the lake and in the river below. But most importantly it preserves the Kokanee and that population of bull trout in lake billy and the metolius.
They use the same system on Baker Lake in Washington and its helped drive the recovery of that wild Sockeye Salmon fishery to the point that harvest has been allowed now for many years annually.
Good video Tyler. Very informative and detailed with explanations and reasoning.
Thank you Tyler. Interested in your opinion on flood control dams and the inverse flows as they relate to smolt production. I’m referring to the fact that they draw down reservoirs in the fall (when historically river flows are low) and retain water to fill reservoirs in the spring (when river flows are high). To what degree do you think this is impacting salmon/steelhead production?
That mis-match of flow timings has very real implications for out migrating smolts. The longer travel times due to lower flows make them susceptible to predation from native predators (e.g. pike minnow & birds) and non-native predators (e.g. bass and walleye). They've seen really positive results from salmon in systems where they at least try and mimic spring flooding.
Well said! Thanks for your insight.
Angler apothy is one of he greatest that's to future angler opportunities. Anglers are always an easy sell to give current opportunities in exchangefor increased opportunities that never materialize.
We need too get you into a court room too explain this too a judge somehow.you sir have the facts!
Great video! I’d like to hear or see a video about your opinions of the Snake River Dams and their potential removal.
Really great video
I didn't know about the draining of the reservoirs. What an ABSOLUTELY insane story!
I honestly think the commercial fisheries through huge financial contributions has basically fully copted the conversation around salmon rehabilitation...
Not to mention they basically have tax payers subsiding their ENTIRE INDUSTRY via hatchery programs.
No hatcheries no commerical fishing.
Basically the angler is like the non unionized worker, who gets shit on by special interest groups, corporations and big unions.
Sports fisherman definitely need more political representation and organization.
Another great episode Tyler!
Thank you for this.
I was guilty of falling into the category of undereducated folks who support anti fishing groups who disguise their cause by playing on peoples love for native fish. Unfortunately they’re giving support to groups that take away fishing opportunity, and do not bolster fish populations .
My number one bit of advice to anyone who supports or gives money to organizations that file lawsuits that lead to things like draining the reservoirs is
Volunteer your time to fisheries and wildlife work and educate yourselves the best you can before you decide where your time and money is going. If you want more fish and more fishing opportunity, throwing your time and dollars at places like native fish society is not going to accomplish either of those.
Take it from someone who started fly fishing and joining the native fish fad at a young age, then formed a more educated and informed opinion over time through volunteer fishery and habitat work. Not all is as it seems.
Its a hard needle to thread because its a complicated topic especially considering the fragmented nature of some of these group. I see work by Trout Unlimited in Montana and Pennsylvania being done to bolster non-native Brown Trout while they work simultaneously here to squash fishing opportunity.
@ I have done volunteer work with the local trout unlimited chapter in my part of the valley as well as my Local soil and water conservation district and Odfw, both singularly and in partnership Type projects, and I whole heartedly agree with your assessment of that with trout unlimited.
The problem is that a lot of these projects are hand in hand with groups like NFS. And so all of the Time and money and volunteer hours spent gathering data is then cherry picked to like you say in the video, to fit a specific agenda and paint the picture they want in a courtroom. Even though it could be the exact opposite of what the biologists and their aides and volunteers are seeing in the field. Days where a fish or wildlife biologist word based off their data in terms of managing fish and wildlife and habitat are seemingly gone.
Which is very sad because the gross amount of mismanagement in fish and wildlife and their habitats based on overly biased agenda is really just taking more and more away. Bad news for people who not only enjoy the outdoors but also those who enjoy their freedoms to fish hunt and harvest for their families.
The crazy part is this isn’t even a political party line type problem even though there are political roots in some of it, like with most Things. There needs to be a better process for how laws,rules, and legislation in general is set for these types of issues, especially with how large the economic impacts are.
A major problem is that the legislative procedures that normally one could follow to address these issues are so deeply seized up and non-functional due to hyper-partisanship that the judicial branch is the only thing left. Its also ill equipped and easily biased.
@ what a crap shoot. I appreciate your advocacy for the benefit of fisheries and local economies as well as changes to management. Wish we had more like you!
I remeber when we replaced one of the colverts on the johnson creek in riverside, trout unlimited tried to say that all the brook trout were gonna get relocated as they were getting shovked and taking them out.. i then over heard the other dude say they were going to dispatch them to make sure no one saw 😂😂 @spiltmilt
I was relieved when you said this won’t be happening to merwin and yale… I had no idea about that crazy artificial migration process. I appreciate your perspective on this issue, based on the results from Green Peter this seems insane.
What a bummer. Merwin is going to be even more crowded now as well.
Great video!!! I'll give a double thumbs up.
Wow, great video, even if no fish seen! I agree. And as you were explaining about the frog, I felt the frog conservation issue is more defendable on the merits or morals. Conservation took a left turn decades ago, and they've been steadily losing me. My fundamental problem with the system we have now is that there are choices to be made, these are difficult, complicated choices with no 'right' answer. But the states are behaving differently. They are behaving as if there is only one right answer, and they are pursuing it. And they are studiously ignoring the voices of key stakeholders. That system can't hold.
Absolutely gutted about this. What madness!
Thanks for doing the important work Tyler. Hopefully it will enlighten some that typically write off this type of information as hyperbole. My father was the 2nd flyfishing guide on the Deschutes and has breakfast weekly with Don Ratliff of Portland General Electric (their fish biologist) who was the biggest proponent of the so called "fish tower" at pelton dam. They argue tirelessly like old dudes do about the effects it has had on the lower Deschutes. Initially the selling point was to bring spawning chinook back to the Deschutes, crooked and metolious rivers. Well, not working. The temps. On the Deschutes have risen rapidly, the major hatches are diminished and occur later every year. Mostly, I'm referring to the formerly robust salmon fly hatch. There are now bass and walleye moving farther and farther upstream. Interesting that the salmon species we leave alone such as pinks and chums are thriving.
We are def not leaving Pinks and Chums alone. We are pumping millions of them into the ocean and doing an insane amount of restoration to improve those species returns.
@ I did not know this. I was mostly referring to hatchery propagation. I lived in NW Gig Harbor for 25 years and noticed the increasing demand for chum eggs as I watched the circle netting from my deck. (Assuming it is related to the demand for the roe in some countries). I sincerely enjoy your videos. Especially since moving back to Bend and having to focus more on Kokanee. Paulina has been my most productive water in recent years. Very reliable lake, and we were catching 14-15" Kokanee towards the end of the season.
Thanks again.
I tried to fish last year and caught one very small trout in the santiam below sweet home. I dont even think I'll buy my license this year
I would think with what we have seen with the fires in CA and lack of water after removing 3 reservoirs we could rally around preventing this from happening using that as an example on top of all the issues you brought up. On a side note, I wish you well and hope you don't have to move out of the area. Thank you for all the great videos and help you provide!
What a stupid take. More reservoirs and isn't going to prevent or even manage wildfires. It's about as dumb as nuking hurricanes.
I’ll start thanking every glitter boat rod collector I see*
Common sense! Great research great rant.
Thank you, I love this kind of content. Would the compatible be the recent drawdown of Wickiup? What has the impact on kokanee been from the drawdown at Wickiup?
Lol, you started yo cover this as soon as i hit send. It's still a great topic for discussion.
I don’t think we should be worried about saving Kokanee, and be more worried about our anadromous salmon and steelhead.
Fuck the salmon I want clean drinking water!
It’s not about the fish . It’s about controlling the WATER , LAND and PEOPLE !
In Utah they killed whole lakes full of beautiful Yellowstone Cutthroat trout averaging 2-4 lbs. They claimed to do it for Colorado River Cutthroat trout that were not endangered only threatened ! These fish averaged Less than one pound and averaged 12 inches . Which when planted they were to be immediately released if caught by fishermen . Then they made that lake a place where lures and fly fishing only was allowed .
Many areas where these fish were planted they also closed off areas that normally were used to access streams . The most stupid part is the Colorado River Cutthroat planted were raised in a fish hatchery !
Thank you for doing this. Most anglers simply do not understand how the new breed of PNW politics is directly connected to our fisheries. Been saying it for years, maybe it will sink in with you telling them.
Do you have any data on the Northfork Resevoir fish device on the Clackamas?
We need people like u in charge
The pressing question isn’t just about the lawsuit over dam adjustments and removals-it’s about transparency. If legal battles concerning the salmon and their passage have been ongoing since the 1970s, why wasn’t the broader community adequately informed? A federal court order has been in motion far longer than many realize, yet it seems this issue wasn’t prioritized until it became an unavoidable mandate.
Oregon had ample time to prepare and address the situation, yet the state’s inaction speaks volumes. This isn’t just about fish, as some might assume-it’s about honoring tribal sovereignty and the restoration of a primary and sacred food source for Indigenous communities. The salmon issue ties directly to cultural preservation, ecological balance, and federal commitments to Native tribes. The consequences now extend far beyond the ecological impact, forcing us to reckon with a history of neglect. It’s a complex and challenging situation, but ignoring it is no longer an option.
But you're right. There is a big picture to all this.
Why don't they just use fish gulpers (surface floating collectors or SFC) to intercept the out migrating juvenile fish to be trucked down stream the same way Puget Sound Energy does it on Baker Lake and Baker River? Because of Money! I work at that facility in the spring and it is state of the art and expensive to build and run but worth it. So, I'm just re-iterating and backing what you are saying. And, the Army Corp is just being too cheap. Surface Floating Collector is what they call it at Baker Lake, some DFW employees call them (the SFC) "fish gulpers."
I agree. I call them smolt vacuums!
They do the same thing on swift
Another huge problem is pikeminnow in upper willamette and creeks that feed from the Santiam
Why not just stock sockeye instead of kokanee? Do they not bite as well?
Is it not also true that the annual drawdowns could result in an improved Kokanee fishery - smaller numbers but possible return to trophy sizes? Is downstream sediment a temporary problem that would largely take care of itself over time - especially with annual drawdowns mitigation huge accumulation of sediment behind the dam year after year? But it’s surely going to be an eyesore no matter what during months when water levels are low.
That was my original hope with Green Peter. However, it appears the drawdown killed all the fish. No spawners were observed the following fall. Therefore it seems likely that Detroit will suffer the same fate.
@@spiltmilt I respect your knowledge and your opinions Tyler. And not to belabor the point, but didn’t drawdowns at the Wickiup result in noticeable larger Kokanee? But don’t say that too loud!😂
That was a very different drawdown with very different ecological outcomes and water quality impacts. Apples to oranges.
A lot of good info here Tyler. It drives me nuts seeing the courts being the one driving wildlife management. It is also hard to see people fishing for hatchery salmon/steelhead complaining about some of these "conservation" groups sporting gear of companies that are contributing huge dollars annually to these groups to help them file these court cases. I also think it is strange that fish are viewed differently than say game mammals. If a fish stock is in trouble you cannot bring fish in from another river system (even though there is straying in nature, about 10% with steelhead) but if an elk or bighorn sheep population is depressed they trap animals from healthy populations and bring them in and are celebrated. Baffles me. Keep up the good work.
Sure, be a good move to actually manage the seals and sea lions, which have a great impact on the salmon steelhead populations.
100% agree. Much easier and cheaper.
We have a number of fishing organizations and haven't heard much. Also where is Kokanee Power of Oregon? Kokanee Power has been silent or not making any effort to do anything to fight what is happening. Who is going to join a Kokanee group and no Kokanee to fish for. There are protected Chinook in these lakes already that likely got killed going through the dams.
I also know the problem with Central Oregon’s, water problem, and a lot of it has to do with all the golf courses and the way that they top water the grass. They should all be converted to sub surface drips systems, and that would cut back on water usage. It would be more effective more efficientand cost-effective too many golf courses in Central Oregon. It’s a desert they water too much.
I don’t understand why they wouldn’t make fish passage possible because the steelhead that try to return to ocean probably have high mortality too trying to drop down river through the dams and turbines. Which is a big reason I think they’ve seen continuous decreased returns to that water shed. Such a beautiful river above and below the dams, truly is shame
So many memories were made on that lake😔. Do you think that the Klamath dam removal is causing a "flow" (salmon are always going with the flow😂) that may result in the Detroit lake damn being removed? I also think that salmon and steelhead anglers such as myself would push for this removal as this would result in an outstanding sea-run fish numbers (most likely).
I don't think Detroit dam will be removed. Its built for flood control primarily and its removal would threaten enough lives and property that it can't be removed (for now).
I’m not much of an activist but I’m a bit curious about what you said about getting involved as a community. I’d be interested in knowing more about getting more involved. Probably not gonna start making any Molotovs anytime soon but I bet most every angler you’d ask would be happy to help.
This will literally kill all the Kokanee! Per Army Corps Engineer 0 fish survived, it killed all fish in Green Peter! This whole thing needs to stop. Like the hell with the salmon, it's normal worth it.
I don't fish for Kokenee as of yet, but I am an avid Salmon/Steelhead fisherman and it has been my experience for the last two decades in Oregon of very poor decisions for any type of management and conversation efforts equaling laziness and bad attitudes and disposition of those in control. There are many examples to fortify my concerns, but the one that seems to be forgotten is the world renowned Deschutes river which once had a fantastic spring Chinook salmon fishery and now struggles to even have a season. Nowadays I don't believe in natural disasters as much as I do in the mismanagement of over fishing by the ever increasing numbers of ignorant fishermen who th8nka that is what's going on at the moment.
I thought, without the willamette falls ladder, that salmon and steelhead wouldn’t be able to access those area’s historically…
Bass fishing isn't my jam but the more sportfishing that gets done, the stronger our voice can be with legislators. And those folks fishing bass are not fishing for the species I'm after, which means more room for me and less pressure for the fish I am targeting. And vice versa, I'm not impacting the bass fishing community in any negative way by fishing elsewhere. Seems like win-win for everyone to join together as anglers and not segment ourselves as X species fishers.
I agree with everything you said except Crane Prairie is most definitely a reservoir, not a naturally occurring lake. 30 plus years ago you could still see the tree lines from the river channels. Now they have all rotten and broke off.
there might be a tiny bright-side in that folks might start to target Kokanee more in Timothy and those fish might start to get a little larger. If you haven't vertical jigged them in the north arm before it might produce a vids worth of content haha.
Loved the "straight talk" even when you made us swallow some bitter medicine. Too bad there isn't a way to make the Army Corps pony up for some of the damage . . . that way they wouldn't implement the "cheapo" solutions. Seriously, put up a bond for a "smolt diversion system" and charge every property owner in Willamette Valley 1 dollar per 100,000. (this would generate about $800k in Washington County alone). It would certainly take less that 20 years to pay off a $60M dollar bond. Two to five dollars a year for "flood insurance" is pretty cheap by today's prices. We just need people to get be allowed to "get some skin in the game" and implement good solutions as opposed to bad conservation by legal torts.
so for my life time i have been told that hatcheries receive a 2% return on a salmon spawn. when was that number established . In the 50S??? the environment has changed for the worse.
How can I get your phone
How do we stop this?
I think I would disagree that people talking about non native animals doesn't just show up in fish, rabbits on Orcas island, non native snakes, and eguana, lion fish in the Caribbean. Rats mongoose, pigs, and chickens in Hawaii and most pacific islands(even if they were bought by Polynesians). Wild pigs in the South. Goats on the big island. I get that Kokanee are an amazing and super desirable option for our high mountain lakes, but if the argument is between Salmon who used to spawn in numbers we can't even comprehend and saving a fishery that is so small when compared to the far reaching effects of the salmon fishery it kinda seems like a no brainer. However, I can appreciate that there is far more nuance to this topic, and do agree that in the end they could have found a way to make it work for both situations.
There are nuances for sure. There is a big difference between exotic and invasive as well. That being said bass in a pond in eastern Washington don’t really represent a threat to salmon but a lot of folks pretend they do
The point of contention is that #1. There is no evidence as of yet that this will actually work. #2. They are demonstrably better ways to achieve the same outcome (proven) without destroying these fisheries as well eliminating impacts on drinking water and turbidity. Its kind of hard to miss if you have common sense.
It's important to remember that the ESA (as the name states) is about endangered species. There are few, it any legal mechanisms available to protect ecosystems. This often results in a particular species being chosen to enact ESA law with the hope it will help not only that species but many species within an ecosystem. Spotted Owls, Snail Darter, Spotted Frogs all come to mind as species used to trigger ESA protection. I agree with most everything you said but I'm curious about the "fish vacuum". At a cost of 60 million dollars and a return of 200,000 smolts, $300 per fish was spend. I understand that this structure continues to operate but I also understand that there are operating costs and a finite period of time for this structure to be operational. Do you think this is a viable, long term approach to salmon recovery in the region?
They have been using the same system for Baker Lake Sockeye Salmon in north-central WA. That has been so successful that it has created one of the greatest recovery stories in salmon history. Now its one of the best fisheries for Sockeye in the state and more often than not returns far exceed what is expected.
@ That's good information. I don't follow these things as closely as I used to now that I'm retired. Thank you for a fact based discussion!
To add insult and more injury, the Lower Deschutes is a mess due to Pelton Round Butte Dam and the Selective Water Withdrawal Tower. It's been pretty devastating to the native Redband Trout and native Bull Trout in the Warm Springs area.
So if the drawdown kills all the kokanee... what keeps it from also killing the smolts?
Differing timings of out migration for one and Kokanee run deeper as well which leads to decompression issues as they pass through dams
i am short on information of Green Peter. It was a 3 day massive dump this last fall; but the trial was in 2021 - was there a dump (less rapidly) in 2022? If so, it would appear that a slower drawdown might accomplish passage of native juvenile salmon without the disruption of the kokanee (and trout, and bass, and etc. of whatever else swims in these pools. It would be nice to see Congress direct the Corps to what was accomplished above Merwin - but I woun't hold my breath.
You are behind the curve a bit. Catch up here ua-cam.com/video/UBbVHwa8n10/v-deo.html
I believe in the 60’s when these dams were constructed the engineers had engineered plans for appropriate fish ladders that maintained the ambient temperatures for the fish to pass successfully over the structure so there wouldn’t be a problem with the dam itself. From what I understand during construction the contractor omitted that part of the project for reasons that I really don’t know. So potentially all these problems we are having now could have been avoided. Also you have to understand the commercial fisheries industry that will fold when the salmon are gone. So there is no win win for anyone. Just one point Kokanee are not native even though they are a huge part of the economy.
Thanks for the insight.
I do point out they are non-native. Also Willamette wild Chinook stocks are so depleted they have almost no relevance in commercial fishing at this point.
When I saw your recent video about the uncertain future of your career, my first thought was that maybe Tyler will start the Spilt Milt Foundation for environmental policy, advocacy, and education. Our country needs your voice to reach beyond your UA-cam audience. And I bet you would be shocked at the skills and resources your subscribers would be excited to donate. I just don't know how the economics of environmental nonprofits work, aside from seeking grants. How do you get watershed economies to hire you to prevent these ecological disasters?
Why can’t you get an engineer to check about running a ladder to a lower dam and sacrifice the lower lake and save the upper lake. Also I would think there’s more than one reason for the salmon and steelhead going endangered at this time. Also would be a nice idea to work with the tribes to solve the problem and find a cheap way of saving the species. Thanks was a good talk and get depressed about the future of fishing
Ya all will have to go to crescent lake or Odell lakes to go Kokanee fishing
Timothy Lake has Kokanee. Some years they are 10-11 inches and a lot 6-8. Some years there are a lot of them.
I’ll be at the next city hall meeting in Salem to bring this up - I’ll keep going until I get an answer directly from the mayor herself. If we don’t sue and it ruins our drinking water here in Salem - I will run against her in the next election!
Idaho politics are not welcome in Oregon.
Fact-
No Salmon or Steelhead caught and killed in gill nets make it to spawning grounds....
Sounds like they are doing some great work to restore Salmon and Steelhead habitat. Stocked Kokanee and trout should take a back burner to native salmon and steelhead runs. The dams shouldn’t be there at all. Almost every Kokanee fishery in Washington and Oregon was built over steelhead and salmon spawning habitat or blocking steelhead and salmon spawning habitat. I refuse to accept Kokanee as a trade for robust Salmon and Steelhead runs.
I don't understand. Is it the plan to drain these lakes every year?
Yes
@@AustinHelmer-yy3wk to answer that question all you have to do is look at Green Peters Reservoir. It's not as much as prioritizing a certain fish, but finding a better way than killing off most of the population of Kokanee.
My question is that these dams have been there for decades. Why is this an issue now?
I saw the video, I know about the court injunctions. But this is so frustrating .
The local economy was punched after the fires!
i live at gold beach rogue. for third year in a row California will be closed ocean and rivers to salmon. all the guides from CA are bringing their customers six a boat load up every fall to pound the rogue. a guide that owns a rv park told me yesterday that he has 38 new guides in his park. still odfw allowing two fish per day. the extra pressure along with the extra success that the 360 flashers will bring the end to this wild fishery. pump the brakes the rogue cant make all the CA guides 2k boat payments sorry.
Blame both extremist groups and our legal system for being venerable legal system that has no idea what they are judging on. Any angler with a number of years experience and especially Salmon and Steelhead anglers would have common sense that creating wild runs behind dams never built for fish passage is a fool's idea. A lot of work could be done where it would make a difference to help wild fish.
The fishing community is HUGE and out numbers any conservational group, but.... they are a non-collected group that isn't able to as a whole fight back against the smaller but better collected conservational groups, hence why the fishing community always loses. Look at deep sea fishing too, this year you get to keep 4, that's right, 4 bottom fish on a charter trip. The Willamette valley fishing now constitutes catching really yummy stocker trout... All hail the unicorn fish!
I’m pretty sure they draw the reservoirs down every winter
Not nearly to the extent they are proposing as have done.
@ yeah it’s mind blowing what are state does
seems like Detroit was just a river not too many years ago