Tornado F3 VS F-14 Tomcat with Phil Keeble
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2017
- Phil Keeble's book- Patrolling the Cold War Skies: Reheat Sunset - amzn.to/2jGGkVk
Former RAF Tornado F3 pilot Phil Keeble recalls his 3 separate friendly DACT sorties with the USN F-14's and F-18's.
Watch our full interview with Phil Keeble: • Interview with Phil Ke... - Авто та транспорт
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Without a single doubt in my mind, being an American, we have some of the best allies ever. I remember being really young and listening to my grandpa who served in WWII talk about the British troops that he encountered. "Those men were some of the toughest sons of bitches I ever saw." Was what he always said and he meant it with nothing but respect.
Nice to hear an American actually acknowledging the British for our efforts to halt the Nazi's in the war.
Lovely story. I wonder, though, whether he confused us with Canadians, who wore the same pattern uniform. My great uncle, who fought in North Africa in 1942 and France in 1944, told me long ago that he thought the Canadians were the hardest bastards he'd ever met. In truth, I think he thought they were absolute nutters in a "I'm just glad they were on our side" sort of way.
I am glad we are on each other's side today, and always shall be.
@@gravydavy4188
Not to forget the man of the century. Winston Churchill.
The man who saved the world from barbarism.
This said from a german.
@@StephanBiekernice to hear that. lots of people have decided to slag Churchill off lately, using fake information but he was an incredible man who pulled the world together to defeat the Nazi threat.
@@gravydavy4188 Not only that, Churchill was the first leading politician in the world, who realized, that WW2 is going to be a long, hard and all-in effort to win. That way, he steered Britain to an all-out war effort pretty much straight away from day one. He realized, that Britain was lacking in armament in pretty much every aspect, except Navy and utilized industrial ressources accordingly, while at the same time, the Nazis, very over-confident by their initial military successes, failed to do so. At the start of the battle of Britain, the British were already producing more fighter planes a month, than the Germans and the whole Nation was gearing up for a real world war.
Ultimately, the Nazis failed to succeed due to this determination.
And, as a German, i'd say: luckily so.
"We would bravely run away and do the same"
Amazing, pure British sarcasm lol. Loved this interview.
Any 'boom and zoom' fighter runs away half the time (the zoom part) : )
Well done RN. As a proud American I tend to be biased towards the US military but in a clearer intellectual moment it’s more valuable to have the US lose and LEARN from the experience than go out and win and learn much less. Thanks to some great allies from an appreciative Yank.
Problem is we never learn.
The U.S. military couldn't even win a war with illiterate sand dwellers nor even illiterate jungle dwellers. The US military isn't what you think it is. Your patriotism has clouded your judgment. If we were to enter a war with Russia you'd be licking Putin's boots within a few weeks.
@@OhItsThat You don’t?
RN? He was in the Royal Air Force, the Royal Navy never flew tornados.
He's describing visits to Cyprus which is something the RAF do, and then training against aircraft from whatever USN carrier happened to be in that part of the Mediterranean at the time.
I’ve trained often with UK military units. I loved working with them, love their people. Didn’t get to spend enough time in their country, but it’s on my bucket list. Have to take my wife over.
You're more than welcome Dean.
I'm just glad that the RAF and RN are our allies. We Yanks have the best damn allies in the world. Full Stop.
Matty mo
Israel, Poland... the list goes on. What other country in the world can boast such friends?
John Wick's pencil agreed
Totally agree with you, I'm ex RAF, I have a lot of respect for our respective forces, we both have strengths and weaknesses, the point of these exercises is to improve on the weaknesses and to learn new tactics from each other. We are thankfully on the same side and have each others backs
Minus the Netherlands with our shitshow of aircraft (the ones not used for spare parts)
"We have the best allies in the world, fantastic allies, believe me!" /Trump
One of the great joys of Red Flag was in the bar in the evening when good natured banter between the crews always made for lively face to face debate. The underlying tone was always of mutual respect as we were all doing the best we could with the equipment we were given. The internet seems to have destroyed that mutual respect judging by some of the foul, insulting and infantile language used by some on here.
This is the "New World" that is divided by extreme views in everything and has led to so much polarisation in society, it is just so sad.
I was thinking the same, reading some of the trash in these comments.
Well said.
I've no desire to be a misogynist but I liken this to women who are often more full on when they go off on one. Blokes tend to check themselves before they wake up with a crowd around them. With women and the internet neither expect a punch in the throat if they are a complete and utter twat!
A great story ,but.... I thought he said the Phoenix could take him out from 100 miles out .?
@@stevevater8598 You heard correctly. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-54_Phoenix
My grandfather was a German WW I fighter pilot with 12 confirmed kills and served on the staff of Luftflotte West in WW II. He always had great respect for the British pilots.
Back in the 1989 I asked my friend "Art D" a former F-14A Tomcat pilot what was his impressions of the RAF Tornado? He said, "in a close in WVR fight the F-14A has real advantages but, approaching the Tornadoes is the difficult part. The RAF had developed a set of tactics that made the Tornados very difficult to fight.
I controlled F3s on two seperate ACMI detachments (one was the QWI course on which I was a student). My view was that, if well-dsciplied with good tactics, the F3 could win (contrary to popular belief) against USAF fighters (and I'm talking F16s and F15s here) - but it did need everything to go right!
The RAF & USAF are great allies & training together only sharpens each other’s skills.
The Tornado F3 was a purpose built Cold War interceptor and with its high speed, advanced radar and weapon systems it was the best in the world at that. It was built specifically for the purpose of intercepting Russian planes and weapons and destroying them at range. It was not a fighter and not designed to be one.
@@davidbrooks187 it was designed from the outset as a low level strike bomber (GR1/4). Hence why as a fighter (F3) it was limited (especially at altitude). WVR was limited but could hold its own in BVR.
@@moochoman9948 Yes the original 1974 IDS Panavia tornado concept design was just that, but the F3 ADV was a homologation variant of the original & designed specifically to go into Russia at high speed at high-level to intercept & take out aggressors at long range.
@@davidbrooks187 Exactly, a homologation design. So compromised. If you were designing a jet for that purpose from scratch you wouldn't have designed the F3. An F15 or F14 would have been better for the role. Not saying the F3 was useless, but was certainly limited by its original design.
The Tornado or "Tonka" as its affectionately known was a very stable, fast, bomb delivery truck with amazing ground hugging radar. Engineers during Desert Storm often noted paint was missing on the belly of the aircraft thanks to extreme sand dune skimming. Absolute legends
Well done Mr. Keeble. You can't buy those kinds of experiences and training. You were in the right service, for the right country at the right time. I am definitely a little jealous of your opportunities. This Yank salutes you and all your fellow servicemen, especially the oft forgotten ground crews. Hands across the water!
I've worked with the US military and have always found them very gracious, very polite and very good at what they do. Obviously the same can't be said for their keyboard warriors. (See below).
@Arthur Humphreys And vice versa ad nauseum.
@Arthur Humphreys
Trump the moron got a better welcome than he deserves. The US acts big and tries to tell other countries what to do. Trump id the worst.
@Arthur Humphreys Actually no they did not, trump was and is his own wost enemy. You got be embrassed to have him as president, biden is going to be worse because the guy is not well. He clearly has dementia etc.No i am not against democracts or their politics.
@@dean8842 do not be daft trump is an embrassment
@Arthur Humphreys He is complete idot and so is johnson. He is known as the part time Prime Minster as he is rarely works. He has also made a complete mess of covid 19 and so has trump.The world laughs at him lol. If Biden wins in nov, he be talking to walls all the time. Going from brain dead to brain loss. Way to go USA.
"Run away bravely." Love it!
I'm not even a brit, but you've got to love British ingenuity. Thanks Phil and Mike for this.
Love these old British pilots. Cheers from the US!
A classic case of supersonic jets v subsonic ones was when on a F4 phantom squadron and the USAF Aggressors arrived with their F5s. Turning wasn't everything. Sometimes using the burners , punching up to height and get unsighted and then using the vertical was a very combat tactic. That and 2 pairs of eyes. Again it's about knowing your opposition and playing to your strengths and his weaknesses that won the day.
"run away bravely"
I'm going to use that one!
It is a well loved phrase in the RAF!
It is reality. Standing and getting slaughtered is stupid. Possibly having someone call you a coward but still go out and do your job requires bravery. @@seanmcintyre9612
I believe it’s quoting Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Home for tea and medals" ( Quote from Black Adder goes forth)
@@adamnewton8565 brave sir Robin
British are world-class in all that they do! Much respect ! 🇬🇧 🇺🇸 🇺🇦
Especially politics 🤫
The F14 and Tornado were both the dream planes i wanted to fly when in ATC
As F3 groundcrew, I remember going on attachments with the Hawks and the combination of the two aircraft being a lethal mix
I figure the Hawk would better ANY front line fourth-gen' in a subsonic turning duel.
From the good old Lightning and Hunter days
Tea drinking intensifies....
I’ve just seen this video and comments. I’ve got nothing but admiration for anyone who has served, regardless of seeing any “action”. It takes a great team effort to be able to operate effectively in peace and during war. That applies to any branch of the military. Interesting video, thanks.
Always glad the Brits are on our team globally !!!!!
Just goes to prove that it's not just the weapon, but the mind behind it as well.
the tonka may have been a "warmed-over bomber" but it just goes to show it's the man and not the machine that makes the difference
Good to see Phil waxing lyrical.....I remember him in my back seat during the OCU....good value instructor!
Thanks Phil.
Thanks for sharing your story with us Phil, that was really interesting.
That’s why we pull the exercises! We learn from each other and we’re all stronger for it
OH and i forgot to say 'well done, another great video'!
Christopher Crosby cheers :)
Always interesting to get these sort of insights. Great video, thanks for posting it.
An absolutely fascinating insight into fighter training and combat tactics. 👍
Amusing stories, and it does give you a decent insight into the difference in attitudes. Whereas the American and Russians are more procedural in different ways the Brits have long had a tradition of bending the guidelines. Of course that can sometimes get you into trouble.
It also gives you a good indication as to how visual recognition even now is still very important.
First time I've saw your videos as a Brit myself thanks for your service the tornado my opinion one of our best fighters ever
Excellent comments by this gentleman.
Tornado is commonly very underrated. As well as her pilots and wso's. Who won't die to fly a Tornado low level on max velocity? Unbelievable. Would be cool having a comparison to the Buccaneer which is also a really interesting plane. 🇩🇪🤙Blue Sky!
Great story! Thanks!
I've always considered the USA and UK as being polar opposites of a perfect team. America being the "accelerator" (let's do it let's go now now now!) Britan as the brakes (let's take a moment to consider things). Outcome, success pretty much every time there's collaboration! There's a fair few decades of evidence to support this.
What a wonderful story!
Great story. Thanks.
Just a quibble, and I'm sure the gentleman simply misremembered, but the "Midway" class carriers only embarked F-18s- F-4s before them. They never embarked F-14s. Also, it have to have been either the USS Midway (CV-41) or USS Coral Sea (CV-43). The only other Midway-class carrier was USS Franklin D. Roosevelt (CV-42), which was decommissioned in 1977.
RAF & USN - best of the best.
great stuff... thanks !
wow, one for 'Blighty' but i suspect there will be some sour grapes to follow on here which is a shame because we are on the same side (I think and hope so!) we are the 'good-guys' Proud of our RAF, always known for being adaptable and resourceful , making the best of what they had!. Well done Phill Keeble, we are proud of you and all your colleagues past and present and also proud of our cousins across the pond too, we all fight for what is right and good, or at least that;s what we should be doing!
Hopefully not Christopher as it's just banter but you never know I guess! But I thought well worth sharing such a rare encounter.
I don't think there is any reason for anyone to be sour about this. In the forces we like this song "old age and treachery always overcome youth and skill", which is not meant to call someone old or skilled, but to show that superior tactics and experience will always win the day. You win some, you lose some, but when you lose it's important to take that home and learn from it :)
Well said!
Everybody thinks they're the "good guys".
Phoenix never killed anything outside of a weapons range (unless you count the Iranians who got a few kill with it against Iraqi aircraft in the 80-88 war). The one time the USN did use it in combat, during operation southern watch in 1994, its performance was abysmal.
I love how he says "Run away bravely " only the Brits can can say Run like hell so eloquently
Hats off.. no reason why we can't learn from losing. Good job to the allies. God bless
F14 job is to protect a carrier, and everyone was afraid of the Phoenix. Would never get close in a real engagement. If the Phoenix was updated and we had a fighter that could carry it today there would be nothing to stop it.
Meteor - Typhoon End Ex
My new favourite channel..
Great to hear that!
Great stuff ... when push comes to shove, the gloves come off with the Brits.
As good as it was to hear them get one over on the Yanks, I think people from either side will always agree that the UK/US allegence is the closest, strongest and longest there is ... and when that collaborative capability is turned towards a 'real' aggressor then it'll never bode well for those poor souls.
This must have been during the time Maverick was on leave for Gooses funeral because he would not have stood to loose 4 times!
What a brilliant story :-)
superior strategy will always over come a superior force. nicely done sir
It's a pretty close draw between an AIM-7 armed F3 and an AIM-7 armed F-14 in the 'boom and zoom' intercept arena. The Hawk, however, would be a much more nimble turn fighter than either F-14 or F/A-18.
Just thankful we are all on the same side!
Indeed.
Saw one of these jets at Yuma Air Show a few years ago. It's an amazing beautiful jet!
"The package came from behind and shot them in the tail." Money shot of sorts. LOL
Good job Britts
I’m finding this hard to believe know the radar that was on the the Tomcats!
Obviously it's not real life, but I remember using that Mixed Fighter Force Concept when playing the old Harpoon computer game - it worked a treat! The way I did it was to have a pair of Phantoms at altitude on CAP, with four Hawks flying a racetrack pattern up-threat at low altitiude. When the F-4s saw the raiders coming (MiG-23s IIRC) they sent the Hawks in, essentially using them as long-range smart-missiles. Then, just as the Floggers were maneuvering to get shots on the F-4s, the Hawks would pop up into them and create havoc.
I watched the Americans flying their F14s or "Tom Cats", through the valleys in Snowdonia. Looking down on aircraft twisting and dancing between the mountains was breath taking! I think the Yanks are unbeatable in real combat situations. Magnificent men in magnificent flying machines!
There was never a Midway class carrier named "Pearl Harbor" and the F-14 never flew from any Midway class carriers.If memory serves, the Saratoga was on deployment in the Med in the early '90s.
Having said that, yes. I have always envied the Brits for their tactical- minded training. The Brits always geared their training exercises toward war while we always geared our training toward safety and compliance. Gave them a definite edge. The Buccaneers would show up at Red Flag and just dominate exercises because they didn't train with "hard decks". Their subs would almost always win at AUTAC because they trained to sink subs instead of training to pass reactor inspections.
Great story!
I think Halks are what the Red Arrows fly, and so superm manouverable
The F-14 and F-18 are for different purposes than the Tornado F MK3. The F-14 is a CAP fighter, the F-18 is a dogfighter and the F Mk3 was a pure interceptor. That said the F MK3 could sort of do CAP but not for hours and hours like the F-14. The F-14 in standard config could do cap for 4 hours (more with the extra drop tanks dropped) but the F MK3 struggled to do more than 2 hours. However if you want to intercept something big (like a TU-95) the 37mm vs 209mm cannon makes a difference and from ready 5 to intercept altitude could be as little as 3 minutes.,
Slight error in his memory recall. To my knowledge the Midway-class CVs didn't operate the F-14. From the 1960s the fighter wings of the USS Midway and the USS Coral Sea operated F-4s and F-8s, and later upgraded to the F/A-18. As for the USS Franklin D Roosevelt, it operated attack, not fighter, squadrons prior to its decommissioning in 1977, flying the A-6, A-7, and AV-8B. Furthermore, there were only these three (3) vessels in this class; the USS Pearl Harbour is an LSD and does not operate fixed-wing aircraft.
Actually, the Midways DID operate F-14s, but only for training. There was an issue with their hangars and/or elevators which made getting the Tomcat into and out of the hangar a problem. Memory seems to tell me that it was the hangar height? Anyway, there are photos of Toms aboard the Midway and Coral Sea, but mainly for training and carquals, nothing more. They certainly didn't deploy operationally with them, but that doesn't mean that they didn't spend the night here or there.
The slight differences in thinking between different airforces is always interesting. How do you maintain discipline and have a plan while still have a degree of flexibility.
That's a nice story.
A nice honest account of his time as an F3 pilot, and great interview ☺ can I ask where this was filmed at ? And also I think an interview with a guy called Dave Morgan would be interesting too ! 😉 well done again
Thank you. It was filmed at Caernarfon Airworld Aviation Museum in Wales.
Aircrew Interview ah right, interesting stuff ! Looking forward to your next ones ☺
Well Done.
Thank God for the Brits! We'll never face a more capable adversary. Glad were on the same side.
An interesting Vid ,thanks for posting ,the F3 always got a lot of slating in various circles ,but it did the job it was meant to do ,and I think it was retired too early ,like the Jaguar .
Cheers, from America!
Brilliant. Shows you, tactics is everything.
awesome!
Wonderful. And I agree with the comment about US 'tactical constraint'. I noticed that when I controlled the Combat Training Area in the North Sea. I would put US 'Aggressors' in against a variety of RAF fighters and the US would most of the time be sent home smarting.
Great lads the yanks 👍🏻🍺
Way to go RAF
Let's look at some data. The Tornado F,3 weighed 42,000lbs combat configured and 61,700lbs max with two RB.199-34R Mk.105 TF giving 34,000 lbs thrust at AB. Wing area was 322 ft.sq. The US interceptors available at the time were the F-15C and F-14B. The F-15C at combat weight was 44,630lbs and max at 68,000lbs with two F100-P-220 TFs giving 47,660lbs and 608ft.sq. The F-14B went at 59,714lbs and 74,349lbs, 2 x F110-GE-400 at 54,000lbs and 565 sq. ft. That meant that where the Tornado F.3 had a thrust to wgt ratio of .81 at combat wgt and .55 at max wgt, the F-15C had 1.07 and .70 and the F-14B had a ratio of .9 and .73. Wing loading was 130.7 and 191.08 for the Tornado F.3 and 73.4 and 111.84 for the F-15C and 105.69 and 131.9 for the F-14B. The Tornado F.3 carried 2,02 US gal.s internal and 2 x 594 gal. tanks for a combat radius of 350nm. The F-15C carries 2,233 gals. internal and 3,238 in CFT and 3 x 610 gal. drop tanks. The F-14B carries 2,691 gal.s internal and 2 x 267 gal. tanks. F-15C combat radius is 700nm and the F-14B can make 500nm. The Tornado F.3 carries Foxhunter radar and wasn't wired for AMRAAM, the F-14B had the AWG-9 FCS and no AMRAAM, the F-15C had the APG-70 and was wired for the AIM-120. The Foxhunter carried a 27mm Mauser cannon, 4 Skyflash SARH AAMs and 2 AIM-9 Sidewinders. The F-15C carried 4 AIM-7 Sparrow and 4 AIM-9 and an M61A1 20mm cannon or six AIM-120 and 4 x AIM-9. The F-14B carried 4 AIM-54C, 2 x AIM-7 and 2 x AIM-9 and the 20mm M61. The Tornado F.3 eventually cost the RAF $29M each. The F-15C would have cost $21M and the F-14B would have cost $25M. Both the F-14B and F-15C were better dogfighters. Both had equivalent or superior A2A radar and FCS, while the F-14B carried the AIM-54C, the best Soviet bomber killer available. The F-15C had more time on station capable. For the money the RAF paid for 100 Tornado F.3, they could've gotten 138 F-15C or 111 F-14B. Along with a mature maintenance and sustainment infrastructure available anywhere in the world. So why did the UK buy Tornado F.3?
...........and then home for tea and medals!
Love the RAF boys
we are the best , thank you !!!!
wondering how theF-14s AWG9 or APG71 depends on the F-14 type didn't pickup the second package doesn't matter how far the separation was ????
Great stories :-)
Thanks! Give this Man all my money. :D
Thank you very much.
Fantastic
Can anyone tell me what function the intake looking protrusion at the bottom the vertical stabilizer on the tornado serves? I can’t find an explanation anywhere.
Some searching suggests that it is the intake for the bleed air cooler.
I'm not sure of the exact details in the case of the Tornado, but in most planes the primary purpose of this is to provide cold compressed air for cabin pressurization and cooling the avionics.
Love The RAF. Keep telling my American Friend We'd kick their arse :D
Good sort the Yanks. Work with them closely, and never a dull moment. Good mates made over the years.
Akrotiri on the ‘Ton’. Great days as a liney.
Great strategy and great humility, but being a warfighter, everyday isn't a holiday but strategy, training and above all prayer is essential.
Midway class didn’t have F-14’s. It wasn’t big enough to carry Tomcats or the S-3 Viking.
we all know this is a fairy tale because in '89 the Navy had Maverick and Ice Man on alert
Great stories, all tongue in cheek and great banter. The UK and the USA have a great relationship, always have had..... well, after 1783-4-ish 🤣👍. The Politicos in the EU would like that gone. Hopefully we can all get back on track after..... Go the Donald! ⛑🏈🏀⚾🍕🍔🍟🌭
That’s a beautiful jet. Even if it is old by now, it’s sexy.
Kind of reminds me of some of the lessons and tactics the English used in the battle of Britain. Only they had the amazing Spitfire back then in my humble opinion the most important fighter in history. .
In History? Come on. It wasn't even the most successful fighter of WW2. The ME-109, the Hellcat and the Mustang all had way more kills than the spitfire by a wide margin.
@@wadopotato33 "Number of kills" does not equate to "most important"
@@poruatokin Most important is probably the P-51. It was the ONLY fighter with the range to aid bombers which were having their asses handed to them prior to the P-51. Hurricanes shot down more German fighters than the Spitfires as well. Largely because there were more of them.
@@wadopotato33 A few corrections.
First, if it were not for the victory at the BoB, before the US joined the war, then the much later designed P51 would have been pointless as there would have been no bombing campaign of Germany.
Second, the P51 was designed as an escort fighter while the Hurricanes and Spitfires were air defense interceptors.
Third, in the BoB, the Hurricane was less capable against fighters so it was mainly targeting the bombers, while the Spitfire was predominantly used to keep the German fighters off the Hurricanes.
And finally and most importantly, William Green wrote: ‘The Supermarine Spitfire was much more than just a highly successful fighter. It was the material symbol of final victory to the British people in their darkest hour, and was probably the only fighter of the Second World War to achieve legendary status.’
@@poruatokin Corrections...nah. Had Britain lost the BoB there still would have been a German bombing campaign. It would just have come later and at a much greater cost as the US would have to have fought onto the continent first. What doomed the Axis Powers was production. The US and Russia alone would have continued to out produce the Axis powers. Germany was doomed the moment the US entered the war. And if you look at war-time production and come to any other conclusion, then your national pride is getting in the way of reality. WW2 was about the transition of world power from Europe to Russia and the USA. The Spitfire is legendary, but as much of that has to do with symbology as it has to do with performance. And the term "most important" or "best" are going to be heavily influenced by the nationality of the one answering the question. I will leave it at this: It was not amongst the most prolific killers of WW2.
Is that Fred Grubdy he's talking about, I wonder (QWI)?
Interesting.
Jolly Great to listen to Real Life Combat Experiences with cups of Tea or Coffee & Vegan Burgers indeed! Yes , respect the Americans , always equipped with Bigger & more Fire Powered planes but seem like the Good Ol' RAF still can outfoxed the bogged down by Regulation American pilots anytime! Stay Safe & Stay Grateful! 🌷🌿🌎💖🇬🇧🇺🇸
Someday soon the planes will be drones and small super stealthy and vicious. The pilots sitting back in base or on an aircraft carrier.
Reengine the Tornados with the EJ200 and you'll have an air-policing interceptor of greater range and speed than the Typhoon and a low level penetration interdictor that can supercruise at sea level.
I do believe the F3 was in the same boat as the F-14. Replaced with a newer whiz bang jet (Typhoon and F-18) that was less maintenance. Still as much as they gained, they lost in other capabilities.
Has he released a book, as suggested?
William Glover he has indeed. www.amazon.co.uk/Patrolling-Cold-War-Skies-Reheat/dp/1781555966
Bought the Kindle version. Thank you.
William Glover It's a great read. Enjoy.
Each sides aviation culture/leaders decided the outcome in advance and not the equipment or individual pilots is what I took away from this gentleman's discussion.
Yeah I gathered that . No probs