Hey Guys, since the last video on this topic was released, I've leant a lot of new information and I would like to share it with you. I hope that it will help you to achieve even better results. Thank you for all your comments on the previous video which helped with the development on this one. 🙏🏼
Great Video on Color management AND one of the best simple examples. I think Davinci WG/I can be hard to work with other plug ins and luts. But I find if I have a three node tree system that goes from DWG/I - Rec then one more rec709 to cinelog film. It works for at least the luts.
The issues with most methods are not that export looks wrong, but it's actually DaVinci displaying it wrong. The best solution I discovered is to: 1) Use sRGB as an output color space since DaVinci displays it correctly on Mac. 2) Have a CST on the timeline that converts gamma 2.4 to 2.5 (it's just for previewing purposes to add 0.1 more gamma, because we will be delivering in Rec.709 2.2, while the original sRGB gamma is actually close to 2.1). This node needs to be disabled for export. 3) Next, just export your video with a Rec.709 Gamma 2.2 tag. The advantage of this method is that it works in both Aces, DaVinci Color Manage, and default timelines. Additionally, every player, browser, or app will display it correctly or extremely close to the original in case of non-color-managed programs. It's a really good sweet spot in case you don't want to make 5 different versions of your video for every format and platform.
@09:46 Not really. A calibrated monitor via a I/O card is going to show you more correct color but our problem here is that different devices will display your final file differently. No monitor can help you with that. I try to aim for a middle ground where the final picture is "ok" (but different) in all the relevant applications.
One clarification to be precise : Rec.709-A is not really a color space. It's all about tags and internal color management on Macs: ColorSync. Entire Rec.709-A is just an internal "hack" in DVR
Thanks this has been very useful. I was using your findings in your first video, but your third method certainly has improved things for me. Thanks for your hard work!
Hey Alex, I am a bit confused here. I have Mac Studio connected to a Dell ultra sharp U2415 monitor. Should I do these steps and convert to rec 709 A or just use regular rec 709. Is this for Mac users with Mac display alone or every one using a Mac with different monitors?
I worked in printing management starting in the late 1970s and transitioned places I worked from analog to digital in the 1980s and 90s. Back then the problem was Apple opting for 1.8 gamma on its original B&W Macintosh and 8 bit / 256 color monitors in the late 80s. Windows computers used sRGB 2.2 gamma. The problem with the 3D size and shape of the sRGB color gamut was that it was poor match to CYMK inks used for printing. The inks can’t reproduce the same saturated blues and purples an RGB monitor can but can produce purer more saturated yellows. If color was edited by eye by a graphic artist on non-color- managed Mac or PC in the early 1990s the printed results wouldn’t match images clients saw on their screens. Adobe addressed the RGB vs CYMK color problem by adding ICC profile based color editing and creating the Adobe RGB 1998 color space which is just large enough to fit both sRGB and SWOP CYMK inside of it as a working space. Apple had incorporated ICC based ColorSync color management into its OS around 1995, but it wasn’t until the late 1990s that it was added to the Windows OS. The Mac OS ColorSync utility found in Applications > Utilities is a good tool for visualizing and understanding color input, working and output color space interactions in 3D. Select the first gamut you wish to visualize, click on the triangle in the upper left and select hold for comparison, then pick the second. If a color space profile isn’t shown in the drop down menu just load it into the profiles folder using Finder.
@@alex_lionspaw Thanks… Reviewing what I wrote and realizing I mis-stated the Mac vs PC gamma difference, I’ve corrected it to 1.8 vs 2.2. As I recall the selection of 1.8 gamma was based on a desire by Jobs to have the screen match the look of ink on paper, i.e., a “paper white” screen.
Interesting how much it became more confusing and OVER complicated over time. Decades ago everything were simpler and just works. "Now you understand problem and the solutions", as i understand the main problem is Apple...
Thanks! Regarding timeline color space: at 7:53 you set the timeline color space to rec709 gamma 2.4 but people like Darren Mostyn recommend using Davinci Wide Gamut/Intermediate because it is a much wider color space to work with. I assume that the important thing for this video is the output color space, not the timeline color space?
I actually use wgintermidiate now. But for example third party plugins do not work properly as davinci treats titles color the same way as the footage. So it means that everything I make a UA-cam video I do not use color aware timelines as it's too much hustle. I thing this color space is more for pure colorgrading purposes which does not go well if you wanna add additional footage/jpegs and third party titles. 🙏
I haven't experienced gamma shift on any devices using rec709-a. The only problem is some players, like VLC. With this said, I just communicate with clients and see if they got what I rendered. Otherwise posting videos online make no difference. No gamma shift on youtube/IG/Tiktok exc. Hope that helps 🙏🏼
Thanks for this video! However, when using the last method (your preferred method) I am still noticing that the blacks are very lifted when sending to my iPhone. When I look at the export on my desktop, it looks perfect. The blacks are only lifted (by a lot) when viewing it on my iPhone.
I can test only those I have. But I keep coming back to Rec709-A and have no issues. Even tried to use a device to calibrate my Mac display, but still only A gives me what I color grade
Hey Guys, since the last video on this topic was released, I've leant a lot of new information and I would like to share it with you. I hope that it will help you to achieve even better results. Thank you for all your comments on the previous video which helped with the development on this one. 🙏🏼
Great Video on Color management AND one of the best simple examples. I think Davinci WG/I can be hard to work with other plug ins and luts. But I find if I have a three node tree system that goes from DWG/I - Rec then one more rec709 to cinelog film. It works for at least the luts.
The issues with most methods are not that export looks wrong, but it's actually DaVinci displaying it wrong.
The best solution I discovered is to:
1) Use sRGB as an output color space since DaVinci displays it correctly on Mac.
2) Have a CST on the timeline that converts gamma 2.4 to 2.5 (it's just for previewing purposes to add 0.1 more gamma,
because we will be delivering in Rec.709 2.2, while the original sRGB gamma is actually close to 2.1).
This node needs to be disabled for export.
3) Next, just export your video with a Rec.709 Gamma 2.2 tag.
The advantage of this method is that it works in both Aces, DaVinci Color Manage, and default timelines.
Additionally, every player, browser, or app will display it correctly or extremely close to the original in case of non-color-managed programs.
It's a really good sweet spot in case you don't want to make 5 different versions of your video for every format and platform.
@09:46 Not really. A calibrated monitor via a I/O card is going to show you more correct color but our problem here is that different devices will display your final file differently. No monitor can help you with that. I try to aim for a middle ground where the final picture is "ok" (but different) in all the relevant applications.
One clarification to be precise : Rec.709-A is not really a color space. It's all about tags and internal color management on Macs: ColorSync. Entire Rec.709-A is just an internal "hack" in DVR
You just saved my life tonight. I was going crazy wondering why nothing matched the LUT off B-Raw.
Thanks this has been very useful. I was using your findings in your first video, but your third method certainly has improved things for me. Thanks for your hard work!
Thank you! I really appreciate it 🙏🏼
NOTED
Hey Alex, I am a bit confused here. I have Mac Studio connected to a Dell ultra sharp U2415 monitor. Should I do these steps and convert to rec 709 A or just use regular rec 709. Is this for Mac users with Mac display alone or every one using a Mac with different monitors?
I worked in printing management starting in the late 1970s and transitioned places I worked from analog to digital in the 1980s and 90s. Back then the problem was Apple opting for 1.8 gamma on its original B&W Macintosh and 8 bit / 256 color monitors in the late 80s. Windows computers used sRGB 2.2 gamma.
The problem with the 3D size and shape of the sRGB color gamut was that it was poor match to CYMK inks used for printing. The inks can’t reproduce the same saturated blues and purples an RGB monitor can but can produce purer more saturated yellows. If color was edited by eye by a graphic artist on non-color- managed Mac or PC in the early 1990s the printed results wouldn’t match images clients saw on their screens. Adobe addressed the RGB vs CYMK color problem by adding ICC profile based color editing and creating the Adobe RGB 1998 color space which is just large enough to fit both sRGB and SWOP CYMK inside of it as a working space. Apple had incorporated ICC based ColorSync color management into its OS around 1995, but it wasn’t until the late 1990s that it was added to the Windows OS.
The Mac OS ColorSync utility found in Applications > Utilities is a good tool for visualizing and understanding color input, working and output color space interactions in 3D. Select the first gamut you wish to visualize, click on the triangle in the upper left and select hold for comparison, then pick the second. If a color space profile isn’t shown in the drop down menu just load it into the profiles folder using Finder.
Thank you so much for that detailed explanation. It's great to hear new information on the topic which is hard to come across! 🙏🏼
@@alex_lionspaw Thanks… Reviewing what I wrote and realizing I mis-stated the Mac vs PC gamma difference, I’ve corrected it to 1.8 vs 2.2. As I recall the selection of 1.8 gamma was based on a desire by Jobs to have the screen match the look of ink on paper, i.e., a “paper white” screen.
With the last method and using DWG you are not getting gamma difference from what you see on davinci vs what you see on UA-cam? Thanks!
Excellent video, your channel is very high value. This video helped me a lot. THANK YOU!
Thank you! 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼I can't tell how much I appreciate it
thank you so much for this follow up video really appreciate you
Thank you! I really appreciate your appreciation😁🙏🏼🖤
Interesting how much it became more confusing and OVER complicated over time. Decades ago everything were simpler and just works.
"Now you understand problem and the solutions", as i understand the main problem is Apple...
Thank you! Really, thank you.
Thank you for watching 🙏🏼☺️
Great. The students of our colour grading class all use Imacs and colour shift was an annoying problem.
🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼I'm glad I could help!
100% solution is difficult to achieve...at least a few good solutions...both videos thumbs up...
Thank you !!! 🙏
Thanks! Regarding timeline color space: at 7:53 you set the timeline color space to rec709 gamma 2.4 but people like Darren Mostyn recommend using Davinci Wide Gamut/Intermediate because it is a much wider color space to work with. I assume that the important thing for this video is the output color space, not the timeline color space?
I actually use wgintermidiate now. But for example third party plugins do not work properly as davinci treats titles color the same way as the footage. So it means that everything I make a UA-cam video I do not use color aware timelines as it's too much hustle. I thing this color space is more for pure colorgrading purposes which does not go well if you wanna add additional footage/jpegs and third party titles. 🙏
please can someone assist me. when I change the preference settings my colours look washed out not better...so I can't get passed the first step
What machine are you working on ? :)
CAN ANYONE TELL ME PLZ WHATS THE PERFECT DISPLAY COLOR PROFILE FOR MACBOOK PRO ?? IS IT SRGB OR GENERIC RGB OR P3 ?? THANKYOU
There is a tool which calibrate any monitor for correct color profile. I will share it in a future videos 🤫
I shoot short videos for Facebook and the majority of viewers use Android Samsung devices. Any suggestions? Thank you
I haven't experienced gamma shift on any devices using rec709-a. The only problem is some players, like VLC. With this said, I just communicate with clients and see if they got what I rendered. Otherwise posting videos online make no difference. No gamma shift on youtube/IG/Tiktok exc. Hope that helps 🙏🏼
Thanks for this video! However, when using the last method (your preferred method) I am still noticing that the blacks are very lifted when sending to my iPhone. When I look at the export on my desktop, it looks perfect. The blacks are only lifted (by a lot) when viewing it on my iPhone.
Thanks so much for commenting ! 🙏🏼
TBH I think reference monitor is the only valid 100% solution...
the third idea is for cameras with the same model. what about having different cameras
I can test only those I have. But I keep coming back to Rec709-A and have no issues. Even tried to use a device to calibrate my Mac display, but still only A gives me what I color grade
@@alex_lionspaw I tried the rec 709 but the render out out has slight difference.. not that percent
You can use a transform from camera to the delivery color space using nodes or at clip level for individual cámara formats.