David Graeber vs Peter Thiel: Where Did the Future Go
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- Опубліковано 20 вер 2024
- Peter Thiel: We live in an advanced, technological society which is too sophisticated for a "radical democracy."
Also, Peter Thiel: In spite of all our advanced, technologicalology, we can't handle the complexity of a "radical democracy"
Peter Thiel: "Radical democracy" would require too much planning and bureaucracy, which is not ideal.
Also, Peter Thiel: Your radical democracy COULD NOT POSSIBLY plan and be bureaucratic, and that is not ideal.
It's all in the transcript folks. The definition of diabolical (scattered). Sad. Pathetic.
David’s constant nervous laugh is telling. He can’t say anything substantive that withstands scrutiny from Thiel. He basically says something, gets refuted, then backtracks and agrees with Thiel. Go ahead OP and cry about it.
Honestly, it's normal way of speaking by David. He does better impression arguing on paper than in real life, because people usually interpret his behavioral ticks as nervousness as such things.
Telling huh? I don’t think so and talk about reading a lot of things into that
FriedIcecreamIsAReality I think his articulation is good but his logic is bad. Very common among academics. Theil always talks like this. I don’t think he’s nervous.
FriedIcecreamIsAReality stfu
@@Thomas-re9ky I’d say the opposite
I never heard of David until after he passed. I feel a real sense of loss for the world.
I read Bullshit Jobs and started reading Debt a few weeks before he passed. Truly quite a loss. This next decade is going to be a bumpy ride at the very least.
@@dennyhamrick2552 I hear you. I am surprised that U.S. is not in more upheaval.
Amazing writer. Do read 5000 years of Debt by David Graeber
His thesis project is really great too. Toward an Anthropological Theory of Value. It was the only resource of its kind when I did a project with a friend.
Me too! I just discovered him today and wish he were still here because I feel (for whatever that’s worth) he is spot on. Do you know any other philosophers along this same vein? I want to send his book to all my managers.
who invited Peter Thiel? Is understanding is not on par with David Graeber's.
Infinitely more important and interesting than Zizek vs Peterson
Agreed.
Both are equally irrelevant. This is one hour of two men who are experts on one field automatically assuming they're experts on a totally unrelated one. These men have no clue what they're talking about and seem to ignore or dismiss the fact that some engineering challenges have an intrinsic difficulty that you won't solve through politics or management restructuring.
@@davidp.7620 one guy seems like he holds some money to affect the funding of such process,the other is trying to discuss a solution to solve the lack of funding to that process.
i cant stand watching zizek and him rubbing his nose every single second.💀
JD Vance is his puppet
David Graeber was such a brilliant guy, and with such a caring and compassionate nature. Peter Thiel is a fascist and an anti-democrat.
His answer to most people being unable to fulfill their potential is to say that"there are a lot of ways to do things"
Facepalm
big facts
I could not disagree more , Thiel is brilliant
Both sides were being polite and not too direct.
Graeber was giving a question about how to design a system that selects for talent.
Thiel was saying that you let the talent self select itself in their own ingenious ways.
You're SO full of sh*t.
@@sentilopis i think both are correct in that many/most talented people dont know what to do with their lives (but still figure smth out)
and that we cant really make a john lennon in school, bc the things he presents have not been seen before.
the problem does reduce to giving them both the many opportunities to flourish that they need if aimless, and the basic means and freedom to go do their own thing if the things offered dont suit them.
Half of the food that gets actually eaten gets thrown away every year, and already before it even lands in peoples' fridges. Talk about scarcity.
Thiel: "Maybe I'm secretly working for the regime or something"
Graeber: "Not secretly..."
LOL.
Says the dude who got tenure at Princton and had it revoked because he wanted organize a grad student union.
@@donq2957 in what way is a graduate student union "the regime"?
@@Treebark1313 Its too complicated for a stupid minds. Princeton is part of regime. They work for establishment. Thats why they canned the white dude for organizing a union. Ask me one more question and Ill tell you how smart you are.
@@donq2957 I can't believe how completely wrong this is lol. A) he was a professor at Yale B) he wasn't the organizer he just gave vocal support to a student that was the one doing the organizing C) he didn't have tenure D) the reason that the faculty voted to remove him was multifaceted and related to a lot of different things he had done or supported including his work with the global justice movement
@@purple-flowers Yes
Looks to me like we seriously shouldn’t have forgiven the criminals who founded PayPal.
Peter Thiel is not nearly as intelligent as he is given credit for, and he completely lacks both common sense and wisdom. He thinks it's possible to create a colony on Mars, but it's not possible to create a system of direct democracy. Both ideas are ridiculous. David Graeber has intelligence, common sense, and wisdom. Game, Set, and Match: Graeber
Graeber really did put Thiel in a corner during this talk. It was clear how uncomfortable Thiel was getting when Graeber kept deconstructing Thiel’s world views. Sad to see a legend pass away so young.
Have you seen any Adam Curtis documentaries?
Thiel calls himself a libertarian but runs a self-admittedly Orwellian company? Ok.
The word libertarian has been appropriated by liberals like many other words
you dont understand what libertarian means
@@Ryan-xq3kl anything that can be reasonably described as Orwellian is fundamentally incompatible with any definition of "libertarian", but I'd love to hear what you got.
American Libertarianism basically just means "unchecked corporate power". They think liberty for the rich is the only liberty worth caring about.
@@Icameron259 that's a totally objective unbiased definition for sure
32:21 Graeber: "There's people out there who could probably come up with almost anything you could imagine... right now they're sitting around trying to pay off their father's debt on the rice plantation or spending all their time in a shoe factory... that's what I'm concerned with"
Thiel: "All you had to do is go out the front door, and I know you'll say it's harder for all different reasons but no; all you have to do is go out the front door"
How do you walk out the front door of being in debt?? lol
By paying it off through the new revenue source you've acquired. There is relatively big number of low-competition non-scalable globalization-based companies you can create living in third world countires. Take the local supply chain optimization for example.
Also; if you really have a good idea, which Graeber is so concerned about, you wouldn't have the problem with acquiring capital, even though you're personally in debt. I can't imagine any investment fund telling you that as a ceo/cto of a company you can't pay yourself more than average shoe factory worker. And if you can earn even as little as the average factory worker, you can pay off your debt, by the definition of the argument.
@@Wittgenstein.you completely missed the point of everything Graeber said. You’re a fucking moron my amigo.
@@Wittgenstein.I assure being a creative person and trying to get things across to non creative ones is like pulling teeth regardless if the system worked then you wouldn't be here defending it right now
I know a lot of people who acquired more debt doing exactly that... The new source of revenue is more debt, and so on...
@@Wittgenstein. this comment lacks much perspective. you seem to be ignoring the concept of interest. in countries where there are few laws surrounding it and fewer actually enforced many people live in what is effectively legal slavery, the debt pit deepens faster than it can be filled and the practices of creditors are designed to achieve this. the governments in a lot of these countries are deeply corrupt and work with monopolistic or oligopolistic companies, many of which are themselves multinational western companies taking advantage of the corruptable governments and lax laws. you cannot simply 'acquire some capital' if your every waking moment is spent paying not to sleep on the street or go hungry. you cannot pretend like these people have anything close to the opportunity we do here
Thiel being like "no no don't look at the structure just focus on the consequences *start sweating* ...no don't look at the structure.
*look at the structure*
nooooooooo"
*kernel panic*
Thiel is so ultra-serious, it's a highly amusing contrast against Graeber's gleeful giggling.
RIP David, you beautiful bastard.
A quick summary of the vid. Pretty much Peter said in the nicest most apologetic way possible. I dont care how we get there, or how many people suffer. I want to get to Mars at all cost. In contrast, David was a beautiful humanist
@@Elcherino123 Beautiful Humanist = inconsequential human?
@@tavom6710 Yes, I suppose so - David Graeber argued against war, for preserving the environment, for giving greater freedom to workers and in particular to women in society, for opposing racism and imperialism. Things Peter Thiel viscerally opposes and of course, Peter Thiel is winning that debate.
@@tavom6710 not necessarily.
@@gamerknown I just don't understand why arguing for makes you a saint. I can argue for all sorts of things from my seat. Changing material reality is very different. Whatever your opinion you've got to acknowledge that he changed reality more than David Graeber's preening virtue ever could. in eastern mysticism one is not supposed to become involved in the world . Are you in favour of the same thing?
This is so good! i'm glad I found this, I respect both these guys perspectives and love their books. They differ philosophically, sometimes in polarising ways, yet are both so intelligent and valuable. Such a mature discussion and glad they can sit and enjoy each other's presence enough to not cut each other off and throw in low comments on each others character (mostly). Graeber, I miss you.
We are suffering from the emptiness of neoliberal rentier economic. Bankers and landlords don't have dreams, Mr Theil.
whenever people talk about they are "centrists," your words describe exactly what they would like to "center." They never ask themselves: the center of what?
@@Graeberwave with few exceptions most Democrats are right of Nixon at this point in time. Obama considered that he himself would be a moderate Republican if he had been around when Reagan was president. Look at George Bush Sr. handling of the S&L failures compared to the 2008.
@@eottoe2001 The center is the nucleus of the neoliberal consensus: two wings of the same rainbow-colored drone
@@Graeberwave because they all went to the same colleges and universities where they took the course and with the same professors despite whether they were oriented right or left.
Off topic but something to think about is that Milton Friedman went on and on about how the efforts of FDR were a failure to get the US out of the depression. (Milton doesn't explain why the business didn't do it either) But thing that he didn't address is that those reforms produced huge economic growth for the US and working people that stopped when his economics were implemented.
When the US occupied Japan the implemented the same reforms and Japan had tremendous growth pretty much until they implemented "The Washington Consensus" then it all stopped. The blame it on the bubble but once those reforms were turned back, Japan was never the that powerhouse it was.
Far being is a failure, it worked pretty well.
@@eottoe2001 Wow. Friedman wrote "The Conservative Mind" right? I want to read that.
“I want to live forever” 😢
Surprising how low brow Thiel sounds in comparison to Graeber.
“You used to put them in academia, but now academia’s all about self-marketing.”
Thiel: just keep the corrupt system and let the rich do their thing
Graeber: enable everyone to unleash their potential ❤
Thiel thinks the current political order is replaceable, but also that nothing else could possibly replace it... o-kayyyy
Hearing Thiel mention Elon Musk's "occupy Mars" t-shirts to refute Graeber's point about capital stifling innovation is too funny!
That t-shirt didn’t age well did it?
David Graeber was a soul of erudition and wit.
I'm surprised Thiel was able to break away from singing Trump's praises to attend this discussion.
Graeber is a genius and Thiel is a freak 😌
the people commenting on the way that David giggles saying it's out of nervousness is so funny. He can barely keep it together because Peter Thiel keeps saying exactly the wrong things and thus supporting David's position
This is kind of blowing my mind because I've been talking about a libertarianism that also recognises the need for a welfare state for a long time and have found no other thinkers who share that view point. But today I discovered David Graeber - his speaking my language
It's called anarchism dude. It's gonna blow your mind.
After listining everything, i am convinsed, Peter Thiel is creating his own dillusion to support his networth.
Graeber is a pleasure to listen to.
Agree. Sadly, covid got him, I think.
Graeber talked circles around this fool.
The Thumbnail 😂
Thiel pretending David simply proposed to print more money "so there is more money for everyone" says so much more about Thiel than David, loool. Can he be that stupid to think David is that stupid? But even if this is a sneaky-snake-trick once again: This is still ridiculous for a sneaky trick! Such a bucket-head move and some trolls here in comments say Thiel dominated the debate. omg, this is comedy my friends!
What a pleasure to be able to listen to these minds.
Do you think Elon Musk started Tesla?
Thiel insists on scarcity when CEOs earn 300x the average employee and the richest 1% own 50% of the worlds wealth.
Graeber: *explains how the system locks people down and allows only a few people to do things they want*
Thiel (one of the few people): I don't think we should change the system, we should just do things
we = euphemism for "small government" = synonym for oligarchy
He didn't say that ..we should not change..all he said ..that changing a whole system..is quite daydreaming.. it's better and more efficient to do small things and making it larger so that rather than convincing people.
@@tanmayroy6372 agreed, leftist like to imagine their pipe dream society and then destroy everything on its way to utopia.
@@verapamil07 oh? And hyper-capitalist/pro oligarchy like thiel (but not u, because ur a pleb) aren’t destroying society on the way to THEIR admitted dystopia?
@@tanmayroy6372 while people suffer and die, because f#%$ them right?
Both of these people's view make sense, given who they are.
Graeber, the academic, wants more thinking, writing, discussion.
Thiel, the capitalist, wants more action.
In America I guess it's possible for both means to be pursued.
Thiel: "i agree that the eccentric university professor is a species that's becoming extinct".
Graeber: "well, I know that"
That was hard to hear now. RIP to a great one. Someday, we'll get justice for his death
Justice?
@@craigkelly8369 if history has taught me anything, it's that a three letter agency is to blame if anyone left of truman dies before 70
@@abstractalien12345 Home Owners Associations can be difficult entities to get along with but murdering academic anarchists ...?
Needs a bump
I thought David Graeber's book on 'Debt' was a genuine masterpiece - and listening to some of his talks / debates online has been a pleasure.
It seems to me that he combined a childlike optimism (e.g. didn't he more or less openly advocate a 'jubilee' at some point?) with a profound understanding of so many things he wrote and spoke about.
I think I will genuinely miss him.
RIP
Debt is an excellent book.
The comparison to a child is perfect. Jesus said only those who behave like a child (in their curiosity) will enter the kingdom of Heaven.
Yeah David talked about a jubilee. I'm writing a book about a jubilee. He read and liked the linked intro a few years ago. The plan is more complete now, in dedication to David. www.Common-Planet.org/plan
David Graeber's book is available as a free PDF download:
blindhypnosis.com/debt-the-first-5000-years-pdf-david-graeber.html
can't wait to read "Debt" -- graeber worked closely with Michael Hudson who has a whole book "Forgive them their debts" that goes into great detail on the jubilee year and near east conceptions of debt and debt amnesty. He cites Graeber a lot!
Graeber runs gleeful circles around Thiel, unfortunately.
Beautiful debate! I wish political debates would be so nice. It is rare pair of speakers.
Practicality, the destroyer of all delusions of grandeur and “innovative ideas”
OP you crack me up trashing all the commenters (only the Thiel ones) doing gods work sir
Yes I am biased, biased for humanity. I will not lie and pretend like I've achieved "objectivity," although I can say the sky is blue.
@@Graeberwave Bless yourself. And thanks for the video
@@dodododatdatdat A quote from Graeber (in Direct Action): Creating accord is the creation of society. Society is god. Or, perhaps, god is our capacity to create society. Consensus is therefore a ritual of sacrifice, the sacrifice of egoism, where the act bring into being that very god.
We are gods.
26:30 chaotic 🙄
Every time Thiel talks, he tries to draw attention away from any recognition that the majority of people are having their lives brutally limited for the benefit of a few. David is being SO nice. Making his points, though.
it amazes me how many commenters are hyper obsessed with Peter Thiel‘s wealth. Why not drop the envy and get on with life?
@@w.harrison7277 I said nothing that showed obsession or envy. I referred to argument tatics that distracted attention from addressing injustice and corruption, repeatedly.
yeah, he was TOO nice.
I came into the debate hoping that my favorite anarchist would wipe the floor with a corporate oligarch.
But I don't blame him too much, if he was aggressive at all he wouldn't be himself. and he was just an amazing mind.
@@w.harrison7277 When a thief steals what is rightfully yours, is it envy to want it back?
@@w.harrison7277Horrible take.
Just another technocrat saying things like "political atheist", some weird discourse of "going against the grain" even though the host and Graeber clearly pushed him in a humiliating corner when they brought up Palantir, a literal collaboration with the most estabilished of all forces in the country. The complete unprepared fool then goes on citing Airbnb and online schooling as things that will "really change our society". I know he is only a businessman protecting his business and all, but its always depressing to actually listen to the representatives of this side of the political spectrum and see that they have embrassingly little to no substance.
Thank you for posting this conversation in video! I listened to the podcast, but watching Thiel's stressed face and Graber's relaxed and joking disposition while hammering him down intellectually made my week.
Graeber talking wistfully about an immortality drug is especially sad right now. Rest in power, comrade
I'm totally rooting for you here...
Read a thing about Russian Cosmism and Nikolai Fyodorov, a faction of the technophile wing of the early 20th century pre- and post-revolution Bolsheviks. Their factions goal? Not just immortality drug. Nah. Too simple and easy for them. "An Immortality Drug would be an affront to all those giants and lesser men that were needed throughout the history of mankind to push Humanity to a Communist Utopia. We are immortal and live in an Utopia but what about those people!? Isn't it an insult to all those people who HAD TO die to get us to this point!? They, not us, are more deserving of immortality! So? We are going to build machines to resurrect all the dead people that were ever born! And all the people that might have been born! And all the people that never were born! Mwuhahahahaha!"
The Russian Cosmists certainly didn't lack ambition.
Why did communism fail so miserably?
cdzlink because centrally planned economies lacked the ability to manage every aspect of the economy and people misappropriated Marx’s egalitarian ethic in service of state slavery.
@@cdzlink7115 because certain things are just BAD...
Gandalf the wise vs Sauron
Thiel has the guts to actually keep harping on scarcity. There is obviously no such thing, or his position in society would not exist. There are vastly more empty houses than homeless people. There is enough food waisted by the food industry to feed the world twice over. Scarcity is largely a manufactured thing to keep wealth and power concentrated in the hands of the special few.
I accept cookies 😋
Down the drain
It's truly amazing how Thiel fails to understand what not being wealthy is like
I almost sense Theil understands the just aspirations of the public and prefers to leverage advantage of spoils while in their elitist bloody hands and ensure nothing interferes by preaching his accelerationist meritocracy myth hype.
Why should he care?
How come it’s always people isolated from the market demand the market completely change
Lmao who is isolated from the market? There are those who know there's a boot on their neck and those who don't. You're a slave too bud, just because other slaves get beaten more doesn't make you free.
The problem with Thiel's argument in this debate (there are lots of problems with Thiel generally, but they don't really factor into this) is that he's got this very Malthusian mindset, and he makes the same mistake as Malthus. He's right that there is scarcity in the system, but most of that scarcity is artificial and the only reason there isn't enough for everyone is because people like Thiel have so much more than everyone else. Thiel isn't some revolutionary thinker, he made his money by being a banker, but the first one to do it online, and then speculative investment. He hasn't actually produced anything except a convenient middle-man. The primary reason he's a billionaire is that he was born at just the right time to capitalize on an emerging market that was invented though government funding, and be the only game in town when the market calcified.
So many facts, so many hurt feelings.
It is also amazing how you and I know what the shape of the Earth is. Yet, why do people want to "debate" otherwise? And to all the Thiel and Musk knobs, I'll remind you: that was a rhetorical question.
I was enjoying this until I got called a knob
The way you described his career is technically accurate but doesn't really do it justice. Saying that he was just a banker who happened to be the first to do it online is like saying that rockets are just big fireworks. Lots of people tried to create viable online payment systems but it proved very difficult and PayPal was the first major success largely because of Thiel's philosophy and leadership. He's also been one of the most successful venture capitalists ever, so writing the rest of his career off as just speculative investment is also underselling what he's done, problematic entanglements with the security state aside.
@@frankjennings4489 He also funded JD Vance, the latest Trumpanzee to jump on the fascist bandwagon, who just won their primary! Thiel just can't stop winning!
The reason technology has done more in the way of bits instead of atoms is directly a symptom of the system Graeber shines a light on
No, Peter Thiel you are not a Political Atheist.
That is a cop-out so that you do not have to qualify your beliefs.
I think what he means he doesn't fetishise his political beliefs. he doesn't start every sentence with " coming from antiauthoritarian political movement" or some of her pretentious tribal statement. His limitation is that he will not entertain anything he doesn't think has some possibility of success. maybe that's a limitation of imagination. Maybe that's why he has been so successful.
@@tavom6710 Sounds very "postmodern-isy" if there can be any such term.
If I understand, what you are saying is, he is as cold and dead politically as a pile of money is...yaani Capital has no soul and therefore no beliefs, pure pragmatism...yes?
I am not convinced, but I hear you.
On thinking more deeply about it, I think he expresses his beliefs through his money, through actually altering the political landscape to suit his political beliefs...
...where we for being powerless are compelled to proselytize our beliefs till the masses and powerful hear them and hopefully alter the landscape to fit them.
I think he does not needs to get in a public tussle with us because he has the relevant audience he needs to live his particular political beliefs.
I believe you saw what he did to Gawker?
@@ArkAnudDinYaSin he is considerably less cold and dead then David Graeber. Honestly I've never heard of that guy until I watched this video.
Gawker lost a lawsuit based on their publication of a sex tape without the consent of the person the tape. If there is a moral high ground to be had there I can't see it.
He and his followers speak with such absurd self-assurance. It's like wandering into the Christopher Hitchens, fan boy dark web. They are both dead let's move on!!
I will leave you guys to your circle jerk.
@@tavom6710 That's rude.
It's not our fault you can't hold yours up.
The sheer disingeneousness of that remark was just breathtaking.
Excellent conversation. Both my heroes.
Oh now this makes sense. Thiel is also your hero.
@@Graeberwave the convo was solvent. What’s wrong with enjoying them both? Ur bitter.
@@SignOfCalm if you don’t know about why Thiel is a problem and not to be adulated, then I strongly advise you log off the internet and renew your library card.
@@SignOfCalm and I’m bitter? Sure. I can’t be? You’re the taste police? Meanwhile Thiel is a crypto fascist, and backs such candidates clamoring for said fascism. There is no way you haven’t seen that in your algorithm given your adulation of him. The headlines cover his activities. But since we play who is tasting what, let me say what your taste is.
@@SignOfCalm oh no wait, I know what you will say next. Let me guess. You’ll suddenly invoke your pseudo-legal theory?
"We should just start doing it," is a very vacuous statement.
At around 45 min mark Thiel talks about how hopeful he is about Silicon Valley emerging as somewhat of a savior for innovation in the face of the growth of big financial institutional control. I do remember this sentiment in 2015 (prob around when this video was shot). Watching in 2022, however, it seems remarkable how wrong he was. The reality lends itself to Graeber's counterargument that working within the system can often make societal problems worse if not consciously opposing them. Big Tech has simply become another wing of the political and financial machine. User privacy is completely lost; mass manipulation is up for sale. Perhaps there are democratic elements to social media platforms, but I don't think many would see them as a beacon for constructive discourse. There must be a way out. I do believe Bitcoin provides hope here. Finally a technology that enables an equitable and democratic monetary system without a central authority. Perhaps this can naturally reform our society in ways we cannot imagine and allow us to realize our collective potential. RIP David Graeber. What a brilliant mind.
Excellent discussion, especially in view of the very different backgrounds represented.
This discussion could have been a LOT less civil, and likewise a lot less intelligible. I really appreciated hearing these two actually debate and talk instead of the usual arguments
Agreed. All the comments in this video on the other hand... like they weren't hardly even arguing why are people talking about this like it was a street brawl.
Bro used an example of himself leaving a law firm job he was handed right out of college as an example of why people aren’t as trapped as they think
You missed his point though, it wasn't that he was just as trapped as a poor person or something like that it was that the other high-powered high-paid lawyers thought that they were trapped...
This whole class Warfare thing makes us all stupid
@@x0rn312It is usually called class "struggle" not "warfare", which i think makes a difference. claiming that a first world lawyer and someone working in a "third world" shoe factory is essentially experiencing the same struggle, because they both "feel trapped" is ridiculous. It is popular that when someone points to inequality, and looks for someone to blame, for the more privileged party to claim some version of "but in the end aren't we all human?". you can always abstract it to a degree where everyone is equal. Of course corporate lawyers can, and are allowed to feel trapped, and they undoubtedly are in some way, but you have to see how there is a difference, no? I agree there is no point in mindlessly antagonizing each other and i dislike the current trend of thinking that being privileged automatically makes you a bad person, which it doesn't. What it does though is bestow you with a relatively higher degree of social responsibility, which involves acknowledging ones advantages and in the very least not judging those less fortunate as being of lesser character.
Can we just pause and applaud the editing of this video to remove dumb pauses and useless intros🎉🍾
The problem, which was not discussed, is not that we aren't trying to colonize mars, or extend life, it's that we are always trying to make money.
If a mushroom found in forests all over the world was a cure all, it would destroy pharma. Same for alternate energy would destroy big oil. Scarcity is manufactured because it is profitable.
I think I ate that mushroom
Thiel: "I work on technics, not on politics - it's not possible to convince so many people..." - think about it, what that means : (
Yikes Peter, the banks got more levers and got bailed out again. Silicon valley hasn't shrunk the wealth gap and has only made big brother even bigger. David owned this conversation. Great teacher.
Thiel went to school for free.
@@Graeberwave what do you mean, please?
@@blairhakamies4132 He means Thiel was schooled in this debate, and it turns out many of his views have not held up to the test of time. Thiel himself has left Silicon Valley.
@@mgm8075 thank you for educating me. 😊
Peter just doesnt seem to care. His care seems as much as a Pharoah in Ancient Egypt wanting great temples built on the backs of others. And at the end of it all, he believes he has built them all himself, with his own two magical hands no less. I can't even begin to think like he does, but I guess some of our minds are simpler than his
I am absolutely convinced that no wealth in the world can help humanity forward, even in the hands of the most devoted worker in this cause. - Albert Einstein
I never understood why Peter Thiel is worshipped as a philosopher and intellectual in silicon valley. His entire philosophy is a mishmash of justifications and rationalizations for his own greed. Why did Thiel, a former hard core libertarian, transform into a national conservative? Because Palantir won a government contract, of course.
“It is a frequent vice of radical polemic to assert, and even to believe, that once you have found the lowest motive for an antagonist, you have identified the correct one.”
Could you provide an argument that's not dependent on mind-reading?
@@shannon-daygrant8754 A PRINCIPLED libertarian wouldn't support Josh Hawley and Donald Trump, sell data to NSA, FBI, and ICE, fund a candidate who wants a registry of muslims in the US, or provide ideological support for neo-reactionaries like Moldbug. Of course, most american "libertarianism" boils down to "the best government is the one that lets me make the most profit" and Thiel's actions don't deviate from Ayn Rand's egoist ideology. But he's definitely not a philosophically consistent libertarian.
@@crystalc1ear You're still mind-reading a bit, but Ok. you're problem is he bills himself as a libertarian but doesn't fit your idea of one. Can principled'
Putting labels aside, can you point to anything he has said that you disagree with?
@@shannon-daygrant8754 I actually don't disagree with much on this video. Thiel is saying innovation and good things come from the self-interested actions of a few brilliant people and that's the way it should be, Graeber says they come from collective effort and cooperation and that's the way it should be. I am closer to the latter but I can see Thiel's point.
But overall I am repulsed by Thiel's sociopathic life philosophy. The obsession with exiting society (and evading taxes) once you've used up its potential, the obsession with immortality, the racism (he defended apartheid and Palantir's alliances with racial profiling in the government are shady in my opinion), the sexism (he said women should not vote), etc...
I'm no SJW and some of the things he says, especially about colleges and groupthink, I kind of agree with, but in the end I think he's a vile cretin.
Thiel wants rich people to do great things, and Graeber wants us all to do what we want, and get great things as a byproduct. It's a pretty easy choice for me.
@@w.harrison7277 Hey, it's a eugenics Nazi. Hi Mr Nazi!
They can both be right! Thiel's prescriptions are meant to get the ball rolling, but his vision more or less converges with Graeber in the long run. They have the same basic objectives, just different ways of getting there.
@@segasys1339 The guy who runs a company devoted to mass surveillance, named after the evil seeing stones of Sauron, does not converge with Graeber. At all. Can't happen.
@@ernststravoblofeld Relax bruh. If that's your takeaway from this discussion, you're just recreationally outraged. They both agree on an end state of techonological abundance and human prosperity but disagree on how to break out of the sclerotic oligarchy in the near to medium term. If you think Thiel opposes Graeber in any intractable, irreconcilable way, you need to chill out.
@@segasys1339 Fuck off chud.
Graeber is a saint, i mean i could have NEVER have this level of patience with this priviledged boy
It is astonishing how brazen Thiel is about his hatred for democracy and his lack of faith in human beings to be more creative than he is. Anyone even briefly familiar with human history, anthropology, and social movements knows that human beings have an almost boundless creativity when not restrained by authoritarian hierarchical systems.
Name some of the great inventions created in anarchy
@@onetwo3411 anarchism is a political stance, not a form of social organization. So zero, since there is no such thing as living "in anarchy." But if your question is "name some of the great inventions created in forms of social organization other than the one we live in today," the answer is almost boundless: the compass, agriculture, all simple machines, inoculations, cookery, the arch, the dome, columns, knives, steel, trumpets, flutes, roads...
@@onetwo3411 anarchy is a relationship. U want examples tho: printing press, the x-Ray, the automobile, cryptocurrency, thousands of surgical procedures and Medicines…I could go on, but even an NPC like u gets it.
One two. The sex pistols. Case closed.
@@onetwo3411 agriculture, the wheel, fire, etc.
THIEL: "Maybe it's just I'm secretly working on behalf of the regime or something"
GRAEBER: [mumbles] "Not that secretly".
Hits the nail on the head 😂 Praise to Graeber for his patience!
fascists www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-trump-backers-spy-firm-lobbied-gove-hancock-before-winning-key-nhs-contract/
And the regime just silenced Graeber.
It's the key moment of the whole thing
@K O Autopsy results not yet produced. Up to 40 days in a case like this. Natural causes at the moment. Which seems unlikely. If he had an illness or condition we would have expected an announcement by now.
The kings of the button-down shirts.
Theil is intelligent and has made some interesting critiques in the past, but next to Graeber (who i am even less familiar with) Theil looks like an average libertarian "know nothing". He's not even keeping up with Graeber here, who is way ahead of him on every subject. For example, the idea of being "politically agnostic". Anyone who has truly engaged with the deep questions of society and humanity knows that this is an immature view. You can't be politically agnostic and be expected to be taken seriously on the subjects of politics which encompass everything. This view is a symptom of our times, yet Theil gets away with this, he is even lauded for this view because of his status, yet another symptom of our times. Graeber is attempting to take the conversation deeper at every turn and Theil just has nowhere to go. It demonstrates the difference between a true intellectual (or what it means to be truly educated) and the status quo apologists that are so popular today (the one's the Greeks referred to as "Sophists"). I hope people can see the real lack of substance in Theil's approach.
Thiel is a poser. A slippery knob. End of story. I do like to quote Thiel though when he says "The market isn't exclusive to capitalism."
@@Graeberwave Seriously, one of the greatest "innovations" of capitalism is mass ideological social control, though perhaps this is itself an illusion in that this is the fundamental feature of "human nature" that is distorted and forced to function as a bug. Or in other words, the transformation of that underlying unifying force of imagining and chasing the 'absurd' or 'impossible' for the benefit of many that religion offers at its core through the idea of anything/everything ie "god" into a force of coercion and social bondage for the revolting benefit of a few.
I mean like, one can "act like they are free" all they want, but if they're confined to a prison of possibility (or you know, literally) no amount of faith is going to change that structural domination at its base. And like, not to excuse the absolutely deserved shitting on Thiel for his obvious grotesque material comfort that he has the _actual potential_ to influence through this accumulated surplus value, but ironically Thiel himself is even a lesser (much, _much_ lesser, to be clear) victim of the confinement he apathetically enforces on the rest of us in that manufactured ideological prison that puts up subconscious imaginary blind spots to possibility purely for the sake of perpetuating its continued exploitative existence, cloaked in that distortion of the enlightenment ideals of "freedom" and "rationality" to justify itself despite a shared acknowledgement of being neither. I forget where I heard the phrase "epistemology of ignorance" but I think it is quite an apt expression of what I'm trying to get at.
Anyway, hopefully that made any sense and wasn't too bathed in unnecessary jargon, really just a wordy way to say maybe Peter should look into dialectical materialism to better understand his lack of imagination and extremely arbitrary circumstantial position of financial dictator that can break him out of the assumed and unquestioned divine right of entrepreneurs mindset. Or not. Probably that one sadly (and almost insanely at this point).
@@Bisquick Agreed. We underestimate how influential mass media is. Check out the book Technopoly by Neil Postman if you haven't already (or anything by Vilem Flusser).
Thank you, much wiser than my comment. well stated.
Peter serves a very obvious purpose in the world today imo: to be so off base from reality and to have so much power that he is evil. He is a representation of what we must overcome in the coming years.
Take a look at his "competition is for losers" talk he did at Stanford where he argues that monopolies are a must and that scientists who end up poor lived worthless lives. He is someone that has somehow never been challenged in his life. He is backed and funded and protected... somehow.
You can see Peter getting uncomfortable as David unknowingly calls outs Peter's entire ethos beginning around 6 minutes in. Watch Peter's fingers. David goes on to essentially say "beaurorcary began being controlled by corporations which shifted the focus from innovation and creation to finance". Peter literally argued for this in his competition is for losers talk.
Peter- Money is just a measure of stuff
David- Actually it's not
Yeah the billionaire is wrong here. Seems legit
@@redboycaptures yeah that's what happens when you work for the cia
@@jorgethevanguard oh ok so he made paypal and invested in facebook as a CIA operative?
They need to slow down Thiel-bot's ocular-sensor servo-motors in the next update @26:56
8:20 EMOTIONAL DAMAGE
Peter Thiel: Political atheist, libertarian, capitalist, and “working on behalf of the regime” (can’t believe he said that). He hates communism but defends lobbying government for tax-funded advantages. He doesn’t like big government but argues for big national programs like moon landing. Boy was he wrong about “the finance era” being over, and “a long deflationary phase” beginning. At least he admits he chose technology business over politics because he’s “not good at convincing people.” Graeber is in a league of his own. Thiel repeatedly defends his capitalism and contradicts himself multiple times. Didn’t realize he had defense contracts until now. Graeber really seems principled, to care about the future and common good and then suggests some constructive ideas. Thiel’s principles seem to be based around his own personal freedom and wealth accumulation. It was good to see them agree on some things though. Really happy to watch this. I learned a lot. Thx OP
It's much easier to be principled as a professor theorizing about radical change than an entrepreneur operating on a high-level.
Frank Jennings that’s true
@@frankjennings4489 Since when is direct action "theorizing"?
Palantir the fascist tool for power www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-trump-backers-spy-firm-lobbied-gove-hancock-before-winning-key-nhs-contract/
@@frankjennings4489 You do not even realise what you are saying.
Thiel can have all the principles he wants, if he wants them, which a professor has. If he doesn't want them, then he does not hold those principles...
When you talk about principles, what principle are you espousing about them?
That, if it is convenient, you can have principles, so long as it risks no harm to your prospects of maximising profits, you can have principle 'A', as a principle.
That's not holding principle 'A', that's holding the principle of wanting to maximise profits first, with everything else coming second. Holding principle 'A' is just something you pretend.
That's the principle you are espousing. You can hold this principle, but it is totally lousy, much more unprincipled than principled.
What you are saying is that 'principles' are things of convenience, and that Thiel does not maybe have the convienience of having all the principles, that a professor might have.
That is itself a principle. A tremendously lousy principle, more unprincipled than principled.
“Model airplanes that can blow people up” 😂😂😂
Everybody please read all David Graeber’s books. He does not come across great because of his awkward giggles but I tell you he is the greatest intellectual alive (until recent so sadly).
Listen to his books On tape, I did, please!
Peter Thiel seems like he is applying for the role of Draco Malfoy. Actually he seems like a bad person to me, sorry.
The anthropological urge to tell Peter Thiel that Moka among the Kayaka people in Papua New Guinea works on egalitarian principles and is huge huge institution.
You gotta make a YT channel called "anthropological urge" and just destroy the overton window.
@@GraeberwaveThat's so DEVO.
“I want to live forever.”
**SOBBING**
Musicians could not make melodic harmonic compositions unless the musical properties of time-timing sync-duration was not inherent in the Eternity-now Universe.
So because Physics does something similar with the precise standards of mathematical measurement to construct the form work for Scientific Analysis to breakdown chaos into categories of similarities, ie predictive modelling, the best way to make changes is to know how changes can,should and would happen according to accurate knowledge.
You went way over the word limit when you could have just said “the universe is the ultimate free lunch.”
You should include in the video description that this talk originally occurred in 2014.
Both these guys are seriously thinking about how to live in a non authoritarian world. The fact that the person who posted this felt like they had to draw Snake face on Peter Thiel is evidence of a problem... If the freethinkers who want to be a free people can't even get along how the fuck are we going to bring this to the world
What is this, a PR tour for Theil? Hoping the shameful data drain from Fb won't be looked at as the sleazy skim that it was?
communism of the rich fanboys are upset.
@@Graeberwave While the perceptions of the masses got twisted by these connected satanic silver spoon twits.
"I want more, please?"
@@susanray4059 Insidious pencil necked keyboard drone pilots.
@@susanray4059 Emotion is a legitimate way of knowing -some neuroscientist who wrote a book
@@susanray4059 I know, I'm just saying.
Anthropologist V Capitalist. One just wants to make money. Worlds apart.
David is light years ahead. We have the technology. We certainly should not be working 24/7 all our lives in order to line someone else's pockets.
@@w.harrison7277 Wtf are you even talking about?
@@w.harrison7277 Care to provide some scientific data to backup that beyond ridiculous claim? Correlation does not necessarily equal causation, if you know anything about science you would know that. I think it's far more likely that we tend to put our smart tech people into the business world now where all they do is research on how to get people addicted to their phones. And I see no evidence of even a correlation either as every field of study is still overwhelmingly male dominated atleast here in the usa.
keynes imagined in the 1930s that by the 2020s we'd only be working 15 hour workweeks...
Thiel keeps asking, "How can we get to Mars?" He never asks, "Why should we go to Mars?" Graeber points out that NASA could get us to Mars, but does not because there is no political will [to allocate public money to colonizing Mars]." The question is, therefore, why should resources be dedicated to colonizing Mars? Why should one (flawed) individual have the resources to do something that the broad majority believe to be a silly waste of resources? The Earth is in a state of environmental collapse, but Musk would rather spend money on colonizing Mars than spend money on efforts to restore the Earth to health. Musk's fantasy about going to Mars reveals the mentality of a 12-year-old boy who reads Buck Rogers penny-dreadful fiction.
As much as I like Peter Thiel one has to acknowledge that David indeed thinks about the subject matter in much deeper and more coherent way. Peter is an advocate of leaving the system aside and doing what you want to do regardless of law and etc. David thinks about changing the whole system. This way much more potential could be released. Potential of millions of people who do useless jobs just to support themselves instead of following their passion.
“Changing the whole system” is the basis of every shallow and incoherent plan. It’s like the platonic form of shallow incoherence. The original sin. It’s the goal of every movement that ends up making zero impact.
Not want to be rude, but your summary is a good window into a typical leftist central planning mind. Idealism that never becomes reality.
Most people don't have a passion and there's value in finding passions through doing difficult and unenjoyable things
@@informationsuperkhan it doesn't have to happen like that though, in a large sweeping manner. I have some first hand experience with this happening to me (a mere component of the whole).
When covid hit I got furloughed from my job at a restaurant, went on government assistance, and was able to start organizing musicians to fight for fairer wages in a city that brings in billions from music every year while its musicians barely survive- or have to work in other jobs in addition to the music industry. If it can happen to me (a part of the whole), then it can happen to other parts of the whole without needing some sort of utopic revolution. The only thing really utopic I keep hearing is the idea that this corporate capitalist world is somehow sustainable, and guarantees individual freedom.
@@informationsuperkhan perhaps. But in the least we need to create local communities that “the system” has very little control over. That’s what I’m about. Forget “the USA”/ federalism. It’s a decaying gold plated turd.
Kinda feel like both David and Peter misunderstood the intent of that last audience question pretty harshly as being anti technology
the last person couldn’t chew gum and walk, the point is going over your head.
Any idea when this happened ? which year I mean. Thanks for uploading it :)
Friday, September 19, 2014
aged poorly, peter's ideas have -yoda
WHO THE HELL WANTS TO GET TO MARS? WHO IN HIS RIGHT MIND I MEAN?
Since 2008, we have been living in a system of "Socialism for the rich, and austerity for everyone else". This is not my opinion, this is an empirical fact, these are the words of academic yanis varoufakis. It cannot be argued, hairs cannot be split. Deal with it. We're already in socialism, just not the kind that actually helps society.
Wow there's so much Thiel hate here. Interesting..
did you listen to him?
The people who hate Thiel have no personal wealth. they’re drawn to takers and the sophistry of takers, of which Graeber is a master. It’s called naked envy.
@Azza Zazza That’s a good thing.
Graber thinks give people UBI, and they'll create, but in actuality, most people won't create anything at all, and will simply become a burden on the few.
@@morrirowan7384 The more important point is you have to have a _lot_ of growth to do UBI - to prevent just what you're describing. And we don't have the growth. Because our culture is sick and because we have a horribly dysfunctional and heavy burden on our backs in terms of government regs. So UBI advocates should look at the monkey on our backs if they want UBI and stop saying yes to any regulation as if it's always good, when it often is the exact opposite.
26:30 here is an example how Thiel "debates" saying: "get someone to the moon... with a decentralized chaotic system"
He’s such a snake.
Peter Thiel assumed that “decentralized” means “chaotic.” As if decentralized organizations can’t coordinate.
Decentralization is only ok when he approves of it. He has the monopoly on decentralizing even.
great name
lol, this is almost certainly purposeful dishonesty from Thiel. He at one point identified as an ancap, and they are all about decentralization.
Really? The definition of organization is:
> an organized group of people with a particular purpose, such as a business or government department.
Since people don't spontaneously *happen* to agree on their goals and how to achieve them, surely organization implies *some form* of centralization; even if informal and unconscious. Its easy to see organization can happen in ways that are not purely top down and autocratic -that is to say, not formally centralised; however co-ordination certainly means that there was some level centralization(no matter how informal and dynamic); lest how would one sign or imperative be given a greater imperative than all the other signs put forward by the constituents of the organization that would be required for such co-ordination or shared attention towards a certain goal?
People don't merely happen to agree that 9am is the time for work and 5pm is clock off - but that wasn't organised by one pure top down autocracy either - it is to some extent decentralised, but since it IS organised, it must be centralised to some varying degree...
What am I missing here?
He's about that pyramid life, top of it actually, he probably has no idea what the bottom layers go through
There are democratic big Corporations:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation
"The Mondragon Corporation is a corporation and federation of worker cooperatives based in the Basque region of Spain."
Revenue €12.110 billion (2015)
hainish and they are more productive, etc. Also they don’t go bankrupt 60% of the time, compared to the stereotypical model which has a terrible success rate for most businesses/corporations/doing things.
@@Graeberwave Yes, they are not just finance, but actual wealth and cohesion.
@@hainish2381 Awesome. My grandfather is part Basque, makes me proud!
@@Graeberwave That's so cool!
When Graeber said academia has amounted to self-marketing, I am reminded of how many of my seemingly leftist professors would literally just assign us to read their publications and how so many lectures centered around paid speeches they did at the height of their eminence. It is sad,yet predicted that education, and knowledge itself ,succumbed to the hyperreal economy. Rest in power, Graeber.
Damn. True.
Yeah, but to be fair to them, that's just how terrible it is out here in late capitalism. They need to make a living too, and sometimes they really have to sell themselves, and their work.
Sometimes, that amounts to a relatively harmless assignment involving their book in their lectures. Other times, it can involve blatant manipulation of research to reframe certain true facts and create harmful false propaganda.
Luckily not all academia in the world is like this. America has lost the ability to question.
Well.... it's what they understand and have studied so they are more effective at teaching it. Why not assign something they have written? I had a teacher share her master's thesis with us and we would debate with her about it and it helped us all develop a better understanding. It isn't all about self-promotion. Unfortunately she got fired and they hired some new underpaid adjunct to teach for minimal wages
@@aliceinwonder8978 I've been hanging around universities about 25 years, working as an academic for more than 10. The institution where I work is in the global top 20. While the university I attended in my undergrad years was certainly not in the top 20, the quality of education I was given there is sadly, better than what I am able to offer my own students in the apparently prestigious institution in which I now work. Part of the distinction is that the teachers used to give us a good idea of their own research and there'd indeed be lively debates and thoughtful reflection around the work they generously shared: it's what set me on the path of my own academic journey (can't really call it a career). Nowadays I guess there's been a shift into building static courses that can be more easily tracked over time, readings that give a general understanding of the topic but little opportunity for provocation or reflection; more of a self-service environment for students etc. In short, it's become more like a McDonald's. While the amount of work/pay I receive is a bit of a problem, it's the crisis in university culture that will see my out the exit before this year is through.
33:43 your priveleged track record granted you opportunity that a factory worker in china didn't have-and never will. you went to law school, which immediately one-ups you on any job application. your ability to leave and start anew is not representative of the vast majority.
49:45 in order to stop the curtailing of civil liberties, you work with the PERPETRATOR of civil rights violations? you're a show libertarian like so many other american libertarians, you oppose government power but worship corporate power. both are illegitimate from an anarchist perspective and frankly if you actually followed the NAP, you'd be opposed to both. that you are not is proof positive you lack a serious principled stance against the control of freedom by power.
It’s important to remember that it isn’t how much money we have, it’s what the money buys and incentivized that matters
(side note) nice edit on the thumbnail very accurate depiction of peter