Respectful debate and discussion are invited on this thread. Do you agree that these characters were a big improvement over the last season? Or do you feel my analysis is too generous?
Sadly respectful debate is impossible as you probably know deep down. As someone who has enjoyed the show i know this only too well. Enjoyed your vid tho.
Charles and Charlie were phenomenal in their last scene together! I love how with his final breath Celebrimbor managed to reverse their respective roles of manipulator and manipulated, tricking Sauron into a fit of rage in order to be spared the promised days of torment and probably even being "kept alive" as a wraith. His words _"soon I shall go to the shores of the morning, born hence by a wind that you can never FOLLOW!"_ work both as a curse and a stunningly accurate prophecy for Sauron's termination. A swift wind bore Celebrimbor to the Halls of Mandos, _One alone_ prove Sauron's utter ruin: _... it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed..._
It was an improvement for sure, but unfortunately the core problems of the show persist. Bad writing, some poorly cast actors and horrible worldbuilding with a rushed timeline😊
The answer is simple as to why this felt like the best part of the show: Because Anatar and Celebrimbor IS the real story of this age. Tolkien's story is complicated, long-arc gold. The manipulation is subtle, takes decades to foment, and deals with really interesting questions of creation, control and ambition. Especially when you understand Celebrimbor to be the grandson of Feanor, which they barely mention. To be honest, though, even if this is the best part of the show, it still fell flat, with a severely truncated timeline, bad dialogue - and Anatar's plan simply not making any sense. Celebrimbor's motives and decisions in the show make him seem a complete fool. They also tore the lore to shreds. Considering Amazon seemed to boast of the price tag for the IP, and for the cost of the show in general, people expected a work of quality that shines a light on how good Tolkien's world building really was. Instead it feels like the writers thought they could do better, and demonstrated the opposite. I think if you're trying to find something good, you can find it, and I guess this was the "best" part of the show. But best comparatively only to it's other parts. When viewed from the perspective of other fantasy media, or just TV shows in general - it's still, from my perspective, bad and disrespectful to the source material.
Yeah that's the feeling I had too - that maybe this would have been better as a film that focuses mainly on this story. In the context of all the other fluff going on in the show, this story was BETTER but still had major problems. I wonder if, as a standalone film, it might have given us a better picture of the second age. Anyway thanks for being cool with me taking a somewhat contrarian view. I wondered if this video would get downvoted into oblivion lol
Yes, credit to the writers and to the two actors. This was the central arc, and it's good that it had the high quality it had. The arc of the Durins had good moments too.
2:07 “I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history - true or feigned- with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.” -J.R.R. Tolkien
@@troupemusographes2460 His quote would be easier if you read it this way: "Of course my story is not an allegory of Atomic power, but A STORY of Power." I don't think he was suggesting his story was an allegory. Just like in the Bridge of Khazad-dum chapter, he was alluding to the darkness around the balrog being LIKE two vast wings, not actual wings. He could have worded it better in both instances.
I think this was the only story that the series managed to tell with above average quality, I agree. The actors who played these two characters also played a role in this. But I think what is really important is what Tolkien wrote. The only subject that was as faithful to the original as possible in the series was Annatar's deception of Celebrimbor and the making of the rings. They changed the plot again, but the motivation of the characters was parallel to what Tolkien told. So I think the right thing the series did was not in their ability to write this, but in their ability to be faithful to what Tolkien wrote for once. Because I think they failed in almost all of their free writing choices.
@@bryanwigmore7224 Well...at least, if you're going to make stuff up to continue the plot, at least follow the spirit of the original material. Lord of the Rings Online, for example, has made new material following the spirit of the original, and done very well with it.
When the best thing in the show is a realationship that should've happened in the first season but the show-runners wanted to create helbrand God knows why, rushing into showing how Sauron influence is evil, instead of slowly building up trhough out seasons, telling us he's a "bearer of many gifts" instead of showing us and earning that title. Not leting Elrond to get to Celebrimbor bc they went on foot instead of horses (but in the battle the elves have millions horses) eventhough it's urgent, the whole reletationship feels force and contrived imo. Great video btw.
I'd actually say it's the most broken relationship in the season, one with the most potential and some of the best acting but it left me with why would they ever structure it like this impression Why would sauron appear in the same form after revealing his identity to galadriel? Dose he relay on her having such a huge ego that she won't tell others who he really is? Sauron's angelic form should've been the first time they ever met, cut the halbrand crap off completely He shouldn't ask or even suggest making rings for men and dwarves, all rings were initially meant for the elves because he only cared about controlling them at the time, he'd look too suspicious in their eyes if he just appeared with a load of magic rings so he made it look like an artistic collaboration, he dosen't need that disguise for men and dwarves so if they were actually his goal then he shouldn't even be in eregion because he can forge the rings himself The forging of the rings should take more time, they shouldn't forge a whole set of them off screen, and they should be more gradual, first they make lesser experimental rings, then the great 16 rings, then celebrimbor on his own makes the 3 which is supposed to be the peak of his craft and character arc, have sauron actually teach him something, have them exchange some knowledge Sauron acts so needlessly suspicious all the time, I swear he just wants to he caught, he constantly changes his backstory, his manipulation is blatant and easy to see through, he takes massive risks for no reason like how he revealed his true form for one of the elves and she just glanced over it because plot He should not have artificially opposed a time limit on himself, he wants eregion to be sieged but at the same time wants it intact for the rings to be made (that confirms the time frame for making the rings is like a day which is insane) Credits where credit due celebrimbor's actor is the only improvement I can think of over the first season, I hope he gets a better job with a better script because this is not doing him justice
@@GILGAMESH069 very good points, that add up on the points I made somewhere in the comments here. I find this supposedly dramatic interaction between the two just laughable. It is all constructed by defying logic. Everything is meaningless, the narrative make the characters act naive and stupid like small kids would. But I praise the actors here tbh.
Mixed reviews is a funny way of saying they lost the majority of their audience and they singlehandedly created a YT genre of people mocking the show. Billion dollar show with worldwide publicity by one of the largest companies on Earth, an IP with a massive built-in fandom, a massive flop by any standards.
Knowing an audience kept watching beyond season 1 was already kind of surprising. They had long lost the gigantic potential audience this show could've had, for sure, and it's understandable
I think Charles Edwards put in a fantastic performance as Celebrimbor which helps with engagement. However, I am not so sure I would describe Celebrimbor as the protagonist of the season. The protagonist is arguably Sauron. He deceives Celebrimbor and uses his skills to his own ends. If Sauron had not been there, there would have been no rings and no plot. It sounds strange to call the villain the protagonist but he is undeniably the most proactive character.
I had the same thought when he asked who the protagonist was - Sauron's the one whose goals are driving the plot forward. It's not unheard of - Thanos is unquestionably the protagonist of Infinity War, even though he's also the villain.
@@antilles58 True, and I guess of course you want a proactive villain in your story. But you also run the risk of making the hero(es) less compelling to watch if they're mostly just reacting to what the villain is doing. At some point they should catch up and overtake, I think.
Interesting point. Agreed about Charles Edwards' performance, especially in that last scene. Your theory is supported by the fact that the season opens with that little vignette about Sauron being betrayed and turning into that crawly creature.
As someone that was largely disappointed by the show, I can also admit that there were glimpses of great writing and acting between those two, during this season
Hard agree, character-centric storyline of Celebrimbor and Sauron just worked. Insane how much better the show could get with better script. I root for season 3 to get better writers.
Thanks for this. I really appreciate your balanced, reasoned reviews of this series. As a big fan of the books, and only slightly less so of PJ's first three films, I share your criticisms of the show.
I can't speak on the overall quality of the show but from everything I've seen, you're definitely being incredibly generous. Everything about this show is nothing but massively wasted potential.
@@djoxer Nah, as you said - the show has good "bits." A show with this storyline and budget should be amazing from start to finish, not show "glimmers" of a good show. The show as a whole definitely sucks.
Funny cause I actually had to think of one of your vids watching the show, the last episode to be precise. At one point someone said „i choose friendship over power“ (or something close to that). You spotted that moral (friendship over power/standing) as the central one of LOTR and I agree. But I always find it a sign of bad storytelling if you have to say the message of a story out loud, because you are not able to convey it through actions etc.
People are so uh darling to give this show any credit, but I think you're bang on with this. I don't like the context around these generally, BUT the scenes themselves with Annatar and Celebrimbor are executed quite well, especially in the acting department.
For anyone who has ever felt unqualified or incapable of doing a job just look to the inspiring tale of the ROP show runners plowing blindly ahead with zero 💩 given.
So many are pretending Jackson’s LotR trilogy is now some gold standard for adaptations. It takes huge liberties. New things are made up, like the warg attack and Aragorn’s fall in TTT, and lots of characters and events are omitted. The worst offender is RotK - Beregond, Bergil, Imrahil, Ioreth, Ghan-buri-Ghan… and other characters’ personalities are completely changed, like Denethor and Faramir. How is RoP any worse just because it has more wiggle room?
So many people whiff on this simple concept: A film adaptation of a novel has never--and will never--match the novel detail-for-detail. The concept of converting an art form of prose, word-for-word, into the art form of film, and preserving every last detail, is not only unrealistic, it is madness. No novel has ever been translated so perfectly into film, because the two artistic mediums are that different. Sure, both are narrative art forms, but the length and style of their presenting their narratives are vastly different. The second point is that film adaptations--especially of famous 1,000+ page novels--are made for one purpose only: to make massive amounts of profit. The fact that virtually every attempt to do so has resulted in, at best, mediocrity, leaves it almost miraculous that Peter Jackson managed to be as faithful to the novel as he was while dealing with a corporation breathing down his neck. SO, instead of complaining about the relatively small amount of new plot contrivances to help along the adaptation to a shorter artistic medium, you should be thankful it was not only well-written for a film script, but as wildly successful as it was, fueling a renaissance in interest over Tolkien's works--his original literary works, which (surprise, surprise!) remain pure and unchanged and still very much available for people to read in their unabridged form.
@@rikk319 So the Amazon showrunners do not have other parties breathing down their neck? Of course no adaptation can be an exact copy of the source material. I am questioning the discrepancies in the trolls' logic. What is RoP doing wrong that LotR did well? If anything, Jackson created many more contradictions simply because he had more material to use. And don't get me started on the Hobbit trilogy, which some now pretend is better than this series. It is mindboggling.
Hi, It's a fair question you ask. I liked the Jackson movies very much, especially most of the casting, the score, and the costumes, though I also had problems with the liberties taken that you mention. Comparisons between LOTR-the-Movie and ROP are inevitable. Re-makes and spin-offs get compared to the originals--people put art and literature and movies in contexts. The changes that ROP made in its adaptation of Tolkien's texts are far more numerous and drastic than the changes made in LOTR-movie, and fans heartily disliked most of those changes (similarly to your unhappiness with Jackson's adaptations). Try this. Two scenes not in the original texts: characters fall from cliffs. An uninjured Aragorn falls into deep water and, not being weighed down by heavy armor, survives. Okay, that's plausible. Galadriel, seriously, even mortally wounded, falls and strikes rocky ground. How does she not shatter her skull and break every bone in her body? Nope, not buying Galadriel's survival. (I also didn't buy the volcano survival.) For ROP, the list of "I didn't like" is longer than the list of "I like." FYI, I also dislike "The Hobbit," for many of the same reasons I dislike ROP. My list of "I didn't like" is longer than the list of "I liked."
@@RigelDeneb172 How do you quantify those bullet points? I have numerous tiny issues with LotR as well as RoP, like Galadriel's fall that you mention. But unrealistic physics do not take away significantly from my viewing experience if the writing and performances are good, Morfydd Clark being a case in point this season. I was not sure about her or Charlie Vickers in season 1 but I think they both killed it this season. Is that one point on my "Like" list? Two? Or one point for every good performance in every episode, to balance out other issues? I don't even mind Legolas' goofy stunts in The Hobbit too much - what bothers me is the lack of engagement I feel with the main characters aside from BIlbo. I also feel this waste with e.g. Denethor, who is a grey character in the book and could have been much more compelling, noble but misguided, in the film. On that note, he should not have been able to run hundreds of meters while on fire.
In consideration of this video, I feel it reflects on an audience that has more of an appetite for fast food, then a well prepared 3 or 4 course meal. The critical railed with the original LOTR trilogy; many couldn't wait to get to the last one. The art of story telling is more than getting to the punch line. It's a journey and the Rings of Power are just that. I recognized Sauron as the main thread - we all do. The other thread was of Adar. The journey of someone who gave as much as he could, who found clarity just before he was betrayed. The greed of Durin, who faced the Balrog. The interplay with Pharazon and Kemen. To focus only on Sauron and Celebrimbor is myopic view of story telling. This is how I see many who've read the books, or feel their telling could be more dynamic. Can it be told in 2 seasons? No.3 seasons? A jaded audience is quick to dismiss any attempt while failing to see and appreciate the entirety of the story. We all know the story, yet someone had to tell it. Allow the story to unfold and enjoy it. I did. Can't wait for season 3.. and 4 and 5.
I discovered your channel 2 days ago and binge watched your whole content, because I found it incredibly insightful, topics well analysed and explained and your way to approach complicated issues I really appreciate. However here I have to clearly disagree the first time with you: What you point out here is more the idea of the writers behind the applied story of Celebrimbor and Anatar, which might have been good. But the way this story is displayed and imbedded in the overarching narrative, just don't transport the good aspects that you point out here. Because RoP manages to make nearly everything completely meaningless and unimmersive by having logical flaws nearly every minute of screen time, displays completely weird, naive and simply silly choices by the characters. If you, as the viewer, reallize these flaws again and again and the inconsistency, it's nearly impossible to really be engaged into the feelings, motivations etc of the characters. For example: Celebrimbor looks like the most naive, most stupid elf alive that let himself gaslight like a 12 year old over and over again, instead of being shown as this thousands of years old, majestic, wise, mature, powerful, mythic elven being. He doesn't reallize the candles don't burn down, until after a very long time he paints a mark on one? He can forge the rings normally in the illusion despite his whole forge being destroyed? The illusion is being destroyed by destroying a window? This all is inconsistent and doesnt even make sense. He doesn't know what an alloy is? He doesn't know how to really forge at all and needs his trainee to tell him how really forge the rings? Why does Sauron need him in the first place? He cuts his finger, instead of trying to cut his chains (I mean he is the master smith and in his damn forge man). He says "Hallo Mr. Mouse." what would fit to a naive little hobbit and not to his persona at all. He is portrayed so incompetent and miserable. How can you then expect viewers to really be engaged at all in this story, if they get pulled out of their immersion every few minutes? In contrast to your recation, I found it incredibly bad and somehow laughable when he cried and Sauron aswell. Because they made it meaningless before there was even a chance that I would have been engaged. The only good thing I can say here is the acting of the two men that played Anatar and especially Celebrimbor. It seems like Celembrimbor's actor acts out his very soul to make an incredibly bad written script somehow good. I respect him a lot for that.
Thanks for sharing, especially being a fan of the channel. I hope I didn't lose your trust! Nothing wrong with disagreeing, in my view. You make good points - Celebrimbor is definitely not very elf-like, and definitely doesn't come across as one of the GREATEST elves. One does need to overlook some inconsistencies in logic to get immersed in this story. I think for me, it was mainly that by COMPARISON to the rest of the show, I felt that this was done better - mainly because the other storylines are just so empty and meaningless, and often downright cringey. I had to look past a lot of bad to find the good, for sure.
I'm not wasting my time with the show, so I won't judge how well the actors played their relationship overall, but from all the clips I've seen and summaries of the plot I've watched, their relationship sounds ridiculous. Sauron's not even really manipulating Celebrimbor much more than he was in the first season where he just wandered into the forge and told him what an alloy was. Half the time everyone's just doing exactly what he wants and he's arguing with them against his own interests as if he can't believe how dumb they are. And in all the clips I've seen, they sound like an old married couple bickering. I'm yet to hear anyone say anything about this show that gives me any reason to think there's anything worth watching it for, the best most people can say for it is that it's better than nothing, which is literally the lowest bar possible. So at least you're trying harder than that, I'll give you that.
@@GibsonFender I've yet to see anything would lead me to believe that. The bits of dialogue I've heard and clips I've seen just make this look like some kickstarter show funded by "fans" and written by middle-schoolers.
Great analysis! I haven't watched the show - I've been too heavily dissuaded by other people I see discussing it - but I respect your drawing attention to the part of it that did work. I think that's useful.
I agree with you that there are too many plot lines… would’ve been so much better to focus on one at a time. (Though I am happy whenever the hot elf is on screen 😁)
Nonsense. With as greedy as corporations are, there's much, MUCH better ways to get a bigger bang for your advertising buck. Not to mention Amazon is already one of the most well-known companies in the world. More likely this was some idiot convincing a starry-eyed CEO that buying the intellectual rights to this Tolkien material would lead to massive and long-lasting profits, the positive example being Disney buying Marvel, or the negative being Disney buying Star Wars. As soon as some bigwig in an executive office gets dollar signs in their eyes, what little common sense was present flies out the window.
Although I agree that the Celebrimbor storyline is the by far the most engaging and enjoyable storyline in an otherwise wholly un-enjoyable show, I just cannot help but feel like the stakes are so low - or made to feel so low. A story about Second Age should be the story of larger-than-life characters doing deeds and actions that shape the very history of Middle-Earth. However, every storyline, conversation, and event in the show just feels so "Everyday-like" and insignificant in this grand tale... This might just be because Tolkien's work in its essence is hard to adapt to TV in general (Films obviously worked though, PJ proved that). Idk.. everything just falls flat of it's face in this show.. such a shame.. it's so bad lol...
I like this show. It has its issues and its challenges. It's based on beloved and wildly in depth source material which is always going to be hard to stick the landing. But it's fundamentally not bad. There is so much garbage on TV that to simply dismiss this show entirely feels wrong. I enjoyed the relationship mentioned here and I get the criticisms too. But I'd take 3 more seasons of this over more vanilla StarWars, Marvel or The Witcher.
Grandma-brinbor and Halbrand were sooo poorly cast and acted (not considering the childish dialogues and character development) that I swear it looks like a CW show.
Lovely to see that your channel has been growing since last I stumbled upon it a few weeks ago. I always enjoy your thoughtful analysis and look forward to more great videos from you. Unfortunately, I think I'm giving up on ROP after season 2. None of the wildly disparate narrative threads in this show have been very compelling in my opinion and I agree that focusing on fewer characters and storylines would have been a much better approach. Sauran/Annatar has been depicted this season as wielding the immense power to regenerate, shape-shift, alter reality, and basically use the force in a very Star Wars kind of way, so the rings of power as objects which he needs to fulfill his plans seem very arbitrary to me. Also, the first episode of this second season featured a pretty interesting piece of dialogue where the man on the boat talks to Helbrand about the daily opportunities to choose good over evil, but it doesn't seem that Sauran/Annatar really wrestles with that conflict in any meaningful way, so the scenes with Annatar and Celebrimbor tend to feel pretty flat to me. Celebrimbor feels too easily swayed by Annatar's pretty clear lies.
Thanks for your kind words. Actually, a lot of my new subscribers are from the video I made criticizing Rings Of Power, and it's interesting to see that many of them feel let down by my decision to praise this aspect of it. One of many interesting lessons in my UA-cam journey so far. And yes, I've really struggled to stay with this show. Season One was downright cringey. I don't have a ton of confidence that Season 3 will redeem it.
@@theartofstorytelling1 Expressions of fandom are vast and interesting indeed. Our favorite stories tend to connect so personally and can elicit such passionate responses. I like to focus on what draws me in to art and storytelling in the first place, the beautiful exploration of the human condition. LOTR is a story that champions goodness, friendship, hope, and courage among many other themes. I feel that any critique that I express whether positive or negative must account for those values that connect me to that story. In all of your videos that I've seen, your analysis comes across thoughtful, insightful, and fair. I have tremendous respect for you and all of the other artists and storytellers out there who have the courage to create something and then share it with the rest of us. Keep up the good work.
It is ironic that Amazon bears so many parallels between itself and the bad guys of LotR. The rampant industrialism, the founder's obsession with wealth at the expense of the wellbeing of its workers, pushing an obsession for material things onto its customers, etc. Like, Bezos, if you were in Lord of the Rings, you and your company would be a fine stand in for Sauron/Saruman/Smaug.
lmao the only good part about the show was the part that was actually part of the lore and not made up. The gandalf and harfoots, galadriel, aorrondier and all that jazz, just get rid of it. Its jazz. To many chords. Give me the solid sweet 4 chord pop music.
Thank you! At last! Yes! It is quite a specific TV show but there are things that are definitely well done and heroes (anti-heroes mostly) that were amazingly portrayed.
Respectful debate and discussion are invited on this thread. Do you agree that these characters were a big improvement over the last season? Or do you feel my analysis is too generous?
Sadly respectful debate is impossible as you probably know deep down. As someone who has enjoyed the show i know this only too well. Enjoyed your vid tho.
Charles and Charlie were phenomenal in their last scene together! I love how with his final breath Celebrimbor managed to reverse their respective roles of manipulator and manipulated, tricking Sauron into a fit of rage in order to be spared the promised days of torment and probably even being "kept alive" as a wraith. His words _"soon I shall go to the shores of the morning, born hence by a wind that you can never FOLLOW!"_ work both as a curse and a stunningly accurate prophecy for Sauron's termination.
A swift wind bore Celebrimbor to the Halls of Mandos, _One alone_ prove Sauron's utter ruin: _... it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed..._
It was an improvement for sure, but unfortunately the core problems of the show persist. Bad writing, some poorly cast actors and horrible worldbuilding with a rushed timeline😊
The answer is simple as to why this felt like the best part of the show: Because Anatar and Celebrimbor IS the real story of this age. Tolkien's story is complicated, long-arc gold. The manipulation is subtle, takes decades to foment, and deals with really interesting questions of creation, control and ambition. Especially when you understand Celebrimbor to be the grandson of Feanor, which they barely mention.
To be honest, though, even if this is the best part of the show, it still fell flat, with a severely truncated timeline, bad dialogue - and Anatar's plan simply not making any sense. Celebrimbor's motives and decisions in the show make him seem a complete fool. They also tore the lore to shreds. Considering Amazon seemed to boast of the price tag for the IP, and for the cost of the show in general, people expected a work of quality that shines a light on how good Tolkien's world building really was. Instead it feels like the writers thought they could do better, and demonstrated the opposite.
I think if you're trying to find something good, you can find it, and I guess this was the "best" part of the show. But best comparatively only to it's other parts. When viewed from the perspective of other fantasy media, or just TV shows in general - it's still, from my perspective, bad and disrespectful to the source material.
I appreciate you taking a different tact, though, given all the negative attention this show gets.
Agreed - it seemed a bit easy for Anatar
Yeah that's the feeling I had too - that maybe this would have been better as a film that focuses mainly on this story. In the context of all the other fluff going on in the show, this story was BETTER but still had major problems. I wonder if, as a standalone film, it might have given us a better picture of the second age. Anyway thanks for being cool with me taking a somewhat contrarian view. I wondered if this video would get downvoted into oblivion lol
Next video: What Sharknado does right
Unironically a great movie night with friends
Yes, credit to the writers and to the two actors. This was the central arc, and it's good that it had the high quality it had. The arc of the Durins had good moments too.
2:07 “I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history - true or feigned- with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.” -J.R.R. Tolkien
"Of course my story is not an allegory of Atomic power, but of Power." (JRR Tolkien, Letter #186)
@@troupemusographes2460 His quote would be easier if you read it this way: "Of course my story is not an allegory of Atomic power, but A STORY of Power." I don't think he was suggesting his story was an allegory. Just like in the Bridge of Khazad-dum chapter, he was alluding to the darkness around the balrog being LIKE two vast wings, not actual wings. He could have worded it better in both instances.
I think this was the only story that the series managed to tell with above average quality, I agree. The actors who played these two characters also played a role in this. But I think what is really important is what Tolkien wrote. The only subject that was as faithful to the original as possible in the series was Annatar's deception of Celebrimbor and the making of the rings. They changed the plot again, but the motivation of the characters was parallel to what Tolkien told. So I think the right thing the series did was not in their ability to write this, but in their ability to be faithful to what Tolkien wrote for once. Because I think they failed in almost all of their free writing choices.
This is a good point. Maybe this story works the best simply because it is the most faithful to the source material. Thanks for watching :)
Good point. Similar to how GoT went off the rails when the showrunners made up their own stuff.
@@bryanwigmore7224 Well...at least, if you're going to make stuff up to continue the plot, at least follow the spirit of the original material. Lord of the Rings Online, for example, has made new material following the spirit of the original, and done very well with it.
When the best thing in the show is a realationship that should've happened in the first season but the show-runners wanted to create helbrand God knows why, rushing into showing how Sauron influence is evil, instead of slowly building up trhough out seasons, telling us he's a "bearer of many gifts" instead of showing us and earning that title. Not leting Elrond to get to Celebrimbor bc they went on foot instead of horses (but in the battle the elves have millions horses) eventhough it's urgent, the whole reletationship feels force and contrived imo.
Great video btw.
I'd actually say it's the most broken relationship in the season, one with the most potential and some of the best acting but it left me with why would they ever structure it like this impression
Why would sauron appear in the same form after revealing his identity to galadriel? Dose he relay on her having such a huge ego that she won't tell others who he really is? Sauron's angelic form should've been the first time they ever met, cut the halbrand crap off completely
He shouldn't ask or even suggest making rings for men and dwarves, all rings were initially meant for the elves because he only cared about controlling them at the time, he'd look too suspicious in their eyes if he just appeared with a load of magic rings so he made it look like an artistic collaboration, he dosen't need that disguise for men and dwarves so if they were actually his goal then he shouldn't even be in eregion because he can forge the rings himself
The forging of the rings should take more time, they shouldn't forge a whole set of them off screen, and they should be more gradual, first they make lesser experimental rings, then the great 16 rings, then celebrimbor on his own makes the 3 which is supposed to be the peak of his craft and character arc, have sauron actually teach him something, have them exchange some knowledge
Sauron acts so needlessly suspicious all the time, I swear he just wants to he caught, he constantly changes his backstory, his manipulation is blatant and easy to see through, he takes massive risks for no reason like how he revealed his true form for one of the elves and she just glanced over it because plot
He should not have artificially opposed a time limit on himself, he wants eregion to be sieged but at the same time wants it intact for the rings to be made (that confirms the time frame for making the rings is like a day which is insane)
Credits where credit due celebrimbor's actor is the only improvement I can think of over the first season, I hope he gets a better job with a better script because this is not doing him justice
@@GILGAMESH069 very good points, that add up on the points I made somewhere in the comments here. I find this supposedly dramatic interaction between the two just laughable. It is all constructed by defying logic. Everything is meaningless, the narrative make the characters act naive and stupid like small kids would. But I praise the actors here tbh.
Mixed reviews is a funny way of saying they lost the majority of their audience and they singlehandedly created a YT genre of people mocking the show.
Billion dollar show with worldwide publicity by one of the largest companies on Earth, an IP with a massive built-in fandom, a massive flop by any standards.
Knowing an audience kept watching beyond season 1 was already kind of surprising. They had long lost the gigantic potential audience this show could've had, for sure, and it's understandable
If your only source of information is the Lotr_on_prime subreddit, you'd think this show was better than the books.
@@corentinm.105 I've continued to watch it in a morbid way, like watching a 12-car pileup in a NASCAR race.
Shadow of War/Mordor did an order of magnitude better job for a fraction of the cost
I think Charles Edwards put in a fantastic performance as Celebrimbor which helps with engagement. However, I am not so sure I would describe Celebrimbor as the protagonist of the season. The protagonist is arguably Sauron. He deceives Celebrimbor and uses his skills to his own ends. If Sauron had not been there, there would have been no rings and no plot. It sounds strange to call the villain the protagonist but he is undeniably the most proactive character.
I had the same thought when he asked who the protagonist was - Sauron's the one whose goals are driving the plot forward. It's not unheard of - Thanos is unquestionably the protagonist of Infinity War, even though he's also the villain.
@@antilles58 True, and I guess of course you want a proactive villain in your story. But you also run the risk of making the hero(es) less compelling to watch if they're mostly just reacting to what the villain is doing. At some point they should catch up and overtake, I think.
Interesting point. Agreed about Charles Edwards' performance, especially in that last scene. Your theory is supported by the fact that the season opens with that little vignette about Sauron being betrayed and turning into that crawly creature.
@@antilles58 A protagonist doesn't have to be a hero, true.
@@rikk319 That is true, but the question who then is the antagonist will become quite loaded then.
As someone that was largely disappointed by the show, I can also admit that there were glimpses of great writing and acting between those two, during this season
Hard agree, character-centric storyline of Celebrimbor and Sauron just worked. Insane how much better the show could get with better script. I root for season 3 to get better writers.
Thanks for this. I really appreciate your balanced, reasoned reviews of this series. As a big fan of the books, and only slightly less so of PJ's first three films, I share your criticisms of the show.
I can't speak on the overall quality of the show but from everything I've seen, you're definitely being incredibly generous. Everything about this show is nothing but massively wasted potential.
nah the show has good bits. Durin plot was very good. Second season was a huge improvement.
@@djoxer Nah, as you said - the show has good "bits." A show with this storyline and budget should be amazing from start to finish, not show "glimmers" of a good show. The show as a whole definitely sucks.
Funny cause I actually had to think of one of your vids watching the show, the last episode to be precise. At one point someone said „i choose friendship over power“ (or something close to that). You spotted that moral (friendship over power/standing) as the central one of LOTR and I agree. But I always find it a sign of bad storytelling if you have to say the message of a story out loud, because you are not able to convey it through actions etc.
People are so uh darling to give this show any credit, but I think you're bang on with this. I don't like the context around these generally, BUT the scenes themselves with Annatar and Celebrimbor are executed quite well, especially in the acting department.
For anyone who has ever felt unqualified or incapable of doing a job just look to the inspiring tale of the ROP show runners plowing blindly ahead with zero 💩 given.
So many are pretending Jackson’s LotR trilogy is now some gold standard for adaptations. It takes huge liberties. New things are made up, like the warg attack and Aragorn’s fall in TTT, and lots of characters and events are omitted. The worst offender is RotK - Beregond, Bergil, Imrahil, Ioreth, Ghan-buri-Ghan… and other characters’ personalities are completely changed, like Denethor and Faramir. How is RoP any worse just because it has more wiggle room?
So many people whiff on this simple concept: A film adaptation of a novel has never--and will never--match the novel detail-for-detail. The concept of converting an art form of prose, word-for-word, into the art form of film, and preserving every last detail, is not only unrealistic, it is madness. No novel has ever been translated so perfectly into film, because the two artistic mediums are that different. Sure, both are narrative art forms, but the length and style of their presenting their narratives are vastly different.
The second point is that film adaptations--especially of famous 1,000+ page novels--are made for one purpose only: to make massive amounts of profit. The fact that virtually every attempt to do so has resulted in, at best, mediocrity, leaves it almost miraculous that Peter Jackson managed to be as faithful to the novel as he was while dealing with a corporation breathing down his neck.
SO, instead of complaining about the relatively small amount of new plot contrivances to help along the adaptation to a shorter artistic medium, you should be thankful it was not only well-written for a film script, but as wildly successful as it was, fueling a renaissance in interest over Tolkien's works--his original literary works, which (surprise, surprise!) remain pure and unchanged and still very much available for people to read in their unabridged form.
@@rikk319 So the Amazon showrunners do not have other parties breathing down their neck? Of course no adaptation can be an exact copy of the source material. I am questioning the discrepancies in the trolls' logic. What is RoP doing wrong that LotR did well? If anything, Jackson created many more contradictions simply because he had more material to use. And don't get me started on the Hobbit trilogy, which some now pretend is better than this series. It is mindboggling.
Hi, It's a fair question you ask. I liked the Jackson movies very much, especially most of the casting, the score, and the costumes, though I also had problems with the liberties taken that you mention.
Comparisons between LOTR-the-Movie and ROP are inevitable. Re-makes and spin-offs get compared to the originals--people put art and literature and movies in contexts. The changes that ROP made in its adaptation of Tolkien's texts are far more numerous and drastic than the changes made in LOTR-movie, and fans heartily disliked most of those changes (similarly to your unhappiness with Jackson's adaptations).
Try this. Two scenes not in the original texts: characters fall from cliffs. An uninjured Aragorn falls into deep water and, not being weighed down by heavy armor, survives. Okay, that's plausible.
Galadriel, seriously, even mortally wounded, falls and strikes rocky ground. How does she not shatter her skull and break every bone in her body? Nope, not buying Galadriel's survival. (I also didn't buy the volcano survival.)
For ROP, the list of "I didn't like" is longer than the list of "I like."
FYI, I also dislike "The Hobbit," for many of the same reasons I dislike ROP. My list of "I didn't like" is longer than the list of "I liked."
@@RigelDeneb172 How do you quantify those bullet points? I have numerous tiny issues with LotR as well as RoP, like Galadriel's fall that you mention. But unrealistic physics do not take away significantly from my viewing experience if the writing and performances are good, Morfydd Clark being a case in point this season. I was not sure about her or Charlie Vickers in season 1 but I think they both killed it this season. Is that one point on my "Like" list? Two? Or one point for every good performance in every episode, to balance out other issues? I don't even mind Legolas' goofy stunts in The Hobbit too much - what bothers me is the lack of engagement I feel with the main characters aside from BIlbo. I also feel this waste with e.g. Denethor, who is a grey character in the book and could have been much more compelling, noble but misguided, in the film. On that note, he should not have been able to run hundreds of meters while on fire.
While some of Jacksons changes spun a bit away from the "core"...ROP has shot off into deep space.....
In consideration of this video, I feel it reflects on an audience that has more of an appetite for fast food, then a well prepared 3 or 4 course meal. The critical railed with the original LOTR trilogy; many couldn't wait to get to the last one. The art of story telling is more than getting to the punch line. It's a journey and the Rings of Power are just that. I recognized Sauron as the main thread - we all do. The other thread was of Adar. The journey of someone who gave as much as he could, who found clarity just before he was betrayed. The greed of Durin, who faced the Balrog. The interplay with Pharazon and Kemen.
To focus only on Sauron and Celebrimbor is myopic view of story telling. This is how I see many who've read the books, or feel their telling could be more dynamic. Can it be told in 2 seasons? No.3 seasons? A jaded audience is quick to dismiss any attempt while failing to see and appreciate the entirety of the story. We all know the story, yet someone had to tell it. Allow the story to unfold and enjoy it. I did. Can't wait for season 3.. and 4 and 5.
I discovered your channel 2 days ago and binge watched your whole content, because I found it incredibly insightful, topics well analysed and explained and your way to approach complicated issues I really appreciate. However here I have to clearly disagree the first time with you:
What you point out here is more the idea of the writers behind the applied story of Celebrimbor and Anatar, which might have been good. But the way this story is displayed and imbedded in the overarching narrative, just don't transport the good aspects that you point out here. Because RoP manages to make nearly everything completely meaningless and unimmersive by having logical flaws nearly every minute of screen time, displays completely weird, naive and simply silly choices by the characters. If you, as the viewer, reallize these flaws again and again and the inconsistency, it's nearly impossible to really be engaged into the feelings, motivations etc of the characters. For example: Celebrimbor looks like the most naive, most stupid elf alive that let himself gaslight like a 12 year old over and over again, instead of being shown as this thousands of years old, majestic, wise, mature, powerful, mythic elven being. He doesn't reallize the candles don't burn down, until after a very long time he paints a mark on one? He can forge the rings normally in the illusion despite his whole forge being destroyed? The illusion is being destroyed by destroying a window? This all is inconsistent and doesnt even make sense. He doesn't know what an alloy is? He doesn't know how to really forge at all and needs his trainee to tell him how really forge the rings? Why does Sauron need him in the first place? He cuts his finger, instead of trying to cut his chains (I mean he is the master smith and in his damn forge man). He says "Hallo Mr. Mouse." what would fit to a naive little hobbit and not to his persona at all. He is portrayed so incompetent and miserable. How can you then expect viewers to really be engaged at all in this story, if they get pulled out of their immersion every few minutes? In contrast to your recation, I found it incredibly bad and somehow laughable when he cried and Sauron aswell. Because they made it meaningless before there was even a chance that I would have been engaged.
The only good thing I can say here is the acting of the two men that played Anatar and especially Celebrimbor. It seems like Celembrimbor's actor acts out his very soul to make an incredibly bad written script somehow good. I respect him a lot for that.
Thanks for sharing, especially being a fan of the channel. I hope I didn't lose your trust! Nothing wrong with disagreeing, in my view. You make good points - Celebrimbor is definitely not very elf-like, and definitely doesn't come across as one of the GREATEST elves. One does need to overlook some inconsistencies in logic to get immersed in this story. I think for me, it was mainly that by COMPARISON to the rest of the show, I felt that this was done better - mainly because the other storylines are just so empty and meaningless, and often downright cringey. I had to look past a lot of bad to find the good, for sure.
I'm not wasting my time with the show, so I won't judge how well the actors played their relationship overall, but from all the clips I've seen and summaries of the plot I've watched, their relationship sounds ridiculous. Sauron's not even really manipulating Celebrimbor much more than he was in the first season where he just wandered into the forge and told him what an alloy was. Half the time everyone's just doing exactly what he wants and he's arguing with them against his own interests as if he can't believe how dumb they are. And in all the clips I've seen, they sound like an old married couple bickering. I'm yet to hear anyone say anything about this show that gives me any reason to think there's anything worth watching it for, the best most people can say for it is that it's better than nothing, which is literally the lowest bar possible. So at least you're trying harder than that, I'll give you that.
Right there with you.
It’s actually better than you’d think
@@GibsonFender I've yet to see anything would lead me to believe that. The bits of dialogue I've heard and clips I've seen just make this look like some kickstarter show funded by "fans" and written by middle-schoolers.
Mixed reactions, varying between scolding wrath on the one hand and sarcastic condemnation on the other.
Great analysis! I haven't watched the show - I've been too heavily dissuaded by other people I see discussing it - but I respect your drawing attention to the part of it that did work. I think that's useful.
I agree with you that there are too many plot lines… would’ve been so much better to focus on one at a time. (Though I am happy whenever the hot elf is on screen 😁)
So how many seasons do they need before the whole show become good?
Oh this is just getting worse with every season 😂 what a shit show
Guys, this project was Never intended to succeed. It‘s only a Billion Dollar advertisment for Amazon
Nonsense. With as greedy as corporations are, there's much, MUCH better ways to get a bigger bang for your advertising buck. Not to mention Amazon is already one of the most well-known companies in the world. More likely this was some idiot convincing a starry-eyed CEO that buying the intellectual rights to this Tolkien material would lead to massive and long-lasting profits, the positive example being Disney buying Marvel, or the negative being Disney buying Star Wars.
As soon as some bigwig in an executive office gets dollar signs in their eyes, what little common sense was present flies out the window.
Although I agree that the Celebrimbor storyline is the by far the most engaging and enjoyable storyline in an otherwise wholly un-enjoyable show, I just cannot help but feel like the stakes are so low - or made to feel so low. A story about Second Age should be the story of larger-than-life characters doing deeds and actions that shape the very history of Middle-Earth. However, every storyline, conversation, and event in the show just feels so "Everyday-like" and insignificant in this grand tale... This might just be because Tolkien's work in its essence is hard to adapt to TV in general (Films obviously worked though, PJ proved that).
Idk.. everything just falls flat of it's face in this show.. such a shame.. it's so bad lol...
Totally agree
Nothing: end of video.
I like this show. It has its issues and its challenges. It's based on beloved and wildly in depth source material which is always going to be hard to stick the landing. But it's fundamentally not bad. There is so much garbage on TV that to simply dismiss this show entirely feels wrong. I enjoyed the relationship mentioned here and I get the criticisms too. But I'd take 3 more seasons of this over more vanilla StarWars, Marvel or The Witcher.
The best thing ROP could do is to cease existing.
Never seen this show, but this is a very interesting and engaging analysis :)
Unlike the show
Grandma-brinbor and Halbrand were sooo poorly cast and acted (not considering the childish dialogues and character development) that I swear it looks like a CW show.
Lovely to see that your channel has been growing since last I stumbled upon it a few weeks ago. I always enjoy your thoughtful analysis and look forward to more great videos from you.
Unfortunately, I think I'm giving up on ROP after season 2. None of the wildly disparate narrative threads in this show have been very compelling in my opinion and I agree that focusing on fewer characters and storylines would have been a much better approach. Sauran/Annatar has been depicted this season as wielding the immense power to regenerate, shape-shift, alter reality, and basically use the force in a very Star Wars kind of way, so the rings of power as objects which he needs to fulfill his plans seem very arbitrary to me. Also, the first episode of this second season featured a pretty interesting piece of dialogue where the man on the boat talks to Helbrand about the daily opportunities to choose good over evil, but it doesn't seem that Sauran/Annatar really wrestles with that conflict in any meaningful way, so the scenes with Annatar and Celebrimbor tend to feel pretty flat to me. Celebrimbor feels too easily swayed by Annatar's pretty clear lies.
Husband and I are huge LOTR fans and have given up after episode 4… it’s just too boring
Thanks for your kind words. Actually, a lot of my new subscribers are from the video I made criticizing Rings Of Power, and it's interesting to see that many of them feel let down by my decision to praise this aspect of it. One of many interesting lessons in my UA-cam journey so far. And yes, I've really struggled to stay with this show. Season One was downright cringey. I don't have a ton of confidence that Season 3 will redeem it.
@@theartofstorytelling1 Expressions of fandom are vast and interesting indeed. Our favorite stories tend to connect so personally and can elicit such passionate responses. I like to focus on what draws me in to art and storytelling in the first place, the beautiful exploration of the human condition. LOTR is a story that champions goodness, friendship, hope, and courage among many other themes. I feel that any critique that I express whether positive or negative must account for those values that connect me to that story.
In all of your videos that I've seen, your analysis comes across thoughtful, insightful, and fair. I have tremendous respect for you and all of the other artists and storytellers out there who have the courage to create something and then share it with the rest of us. Keep up the good work.
Definitely generous
Is this reviewer Jimmy Fallon in disguise? Is that beard real?
Is he secretly the Dark Lord of late night talk shows?
It’s also disrespectful towards everything Tolkien ever created. WEAK!!!
It is ironic that Amazon bears so many parallels between itself and the bad guys of LotR.
The rampant industrialism, the founder's obsession with wealth at the expense of the wellbeing of its workers, pushing an obsession for material things onto its customers, etc.
Like, Bezos, if you were in Lord of the Rings, you and your company would be a fine stand in for Sauron/Saruman/Smaug.
What the Rings of Power got right? This should be a short video...
the show is irredeemable at this point.
lmao the only good part about the show was the part that was actually part of the lore and not made up. The gandalf and harfoots, galadriel, aorrondier and all that jazz, just get rid of it. Its jazz. To many chords. Give me the solid sweet 4 chord pop music.
Thank you! At last! Yes! It is quite a specific TV show but there are things that are definitely well done and heroes (anti-heroes mostly) that were amazingly portrayed.
You, sir, got my sub last week, and lost it today.
I think he'll bounce back, Let's give him another chance. One too charitable of a take does not a bad channel make.
I thought season 2 was way better than 1 - huge improvement. I didn’t hate season 1, but it felt meh
Absolutely nothing. There saved y'all 7.44 minutes of a simp waffling.
Amazon check came through
😂