Please remember this is based on high keys... call it 27-30 keys right now. And yes that is a big spread but that is because while a 29 AD/BRH is a top 100 world key, 27 Rise/Everbloom is also a top 100 world key. I have seen a bunch of comments about a few specs (like boomie) and while their damage isn't terrible there are usually other issues such as livability in a season where everything is very 1 shotty. Missing just 1 or 2 checkboxes is enough to not be Meta when you got 25+ other options. "But I saw X" isn't valid unless you saw it in a 28+ key btw. P.S. ret with leggo is beating most other specs in single target.
You are just ignorant and foolish for saying survival doesn’t live. Hunter, the class as a whole is susceptible to rot damage, they have pretty good defensives to meet the Ehp checks. Here’s the kicker, survival with a leech pet counters rot. Survival is actually tankier than BM and comes with a shorter kick CD. Please don’t get me started on other benefits of survival.
You smoking crack i m timing 27s as boomie and literally boomie is one of the only 5 dps specs that timed 30’s, boomie is cracked in high keys aside the defensive issues
Moonkin reliably being in the top keys but only B-tier here doesn't quite make sense to me. They clearly do very well. That being said, unlike last tier, the dps isn't free anymore. They did get more complicated. Not a challenge for top players apparently.
@@ch.kv. Maybe I don't play high enough keys. But between Renewal, Auto-Frenzied-Reg, Frenzied-Reg, Barkskin, Vigil and Vigor I find it extremely hard to die. If there is group-wiping damage, I die last. What we do lack is some sort of cheat death. An add jumping on me when it shouldn't is a big problem. But yeah, up to +23 that just doesn't kill me. So idk... maybe when I grow up and play 27s it will be.
@@farminglol Yeah it's so weird, I can't recall another tier ever when boomies we're squishy('ish).. Like you said, druids still have a lot of good defensives to juggle which makes it even more confusing. I'm only a couple of key levels ahead of where you are now (+26,+27's).. But yeah, even on really clean runs.. The shammy/boomy always goes down a few times. Not so much that boomies are squishy, just that competing dps specs are "unkillable" (warlock, dh, rogue, paladin), combined with the huge amount of spikey / 1-shot damage going out in s3 dungeons.
I disagree with Warlock utility, Gate, Summon, Healthstone, AoE Stun, AoE Fear, Battle Res, Curse of Tongues to slow cast of dangerous mobs. 2 AoE stops is good utility Summon sounds too niche but say you have someone who needs to use PVP break stun trinket for boss in Waycrest and needs to change out trinket outside dungeon; saves time to summon them back. Really niche but possible due to warlock. Just summoning someone who did a bad release. Very good utility.
If Dev gets to be in B then Survival gets to be in B. If you don't punish Dev for not being played, can't do it to SV either. We punish good specs too much for having popular or META specs within the class.
i disagree with ret , ret ST damage is struggling hard against many other specs but the AOE damage is sustainable which makes it good overall. Honestly ret needs a giga one minute use trinket to make it meta.
As far as we go on pali's, I can't agree, I cannot agree that we are Meta. Our single target needs to be bought. A slight bit and then I'll say we are Meta. But we are doing absolute garbage on single target VS other classes. Windwalkers are pumping big time now. I was in a couple of groups with one. He's doing 200 to 300 K.
Tbh if you see an offmeta or an a/b tier spec with 3k rio, and a havoc/bm with 3k at the same time, you might think "this offmeta player is good with his spec if he got to 3k. And this meta player must be weak since he only got 3k"@@CaledonianCraft
@@egoralikin4888 Very true, however in the eyes of the general player base they are almost always going to pick a 3kio DH over a 3kio Survival hunter. I main Prevoker and can tell you we are not the most wanted healer haha.
LOL feral higher than Balance is absolutely wild. Big numbers doesn’t mean better for M+. The utility a class brings is almost as important as the damage it does. Take a look at Warcraft logs and apply the logic you used for Prot pally to Balance. Every single top 5 best run on all M+ dungeons has a boomkin.
im just here to defend ww lmao, talking about survivability, he we 4 drs, while one of those is on a 8min cd, you got karma + diffuse magic, on 1.5m most on the bosses in the current pool deal magic dmg to everyone in the party so survibility could be checked there, the only issue i've had is in ToTT those bleeds hurts like crazy besides that i think ww has great survivability utility, you got every single affix checked, need cc ? you got paralysis, need dispells ? you got a poison/disease dispell which a lot of dungeons need poison or disease, let's not forget we bring a 4% avoidance buff and healing taken (4%~8%), making group take less dmg + more healing, also aoe stun, and Ring of peace are good tools to kick big groups, or even use it a "safe zone" like in EB you RoP your ranges and they are safe from berserkers also works in ataldazar and the big thing here, is damage, i would say ww are doing great dmg right now, i've done more dmg than dh's on keys like ataldazar, wa, fall, rise, but on keys like EB and BRH where packs are just too big and if i dont get procs i deal basiclly no dmg on those packs they beat me by a lot, im not forgetting about mystic touch but any comp i can think of doesnt include another physical damage dealer besides the tank, this would be prot pala, resto druid or disc priest, ww monk, mage/lock and auggie. i would like to hear opinions about it :) also great video
lol did you really just say enhance don't have a ton of utility? Their main problem is they can't freaking live. DPS and utility wise they're amazing, they have a dumb amount of hard CC.
"Aug literally doing tank damage". I mean, having aug as 3rd dps still is comparable to having 3 "proper" dps in group, considering how much it boosts the damage of the other dps in the group, or...?
C for destruction is truly a horrific take. Does more damage than demo in some keys and has a different damage profile useful for certain bosses. Also infernal / blasphemy stuns
Nah...Demo is better in almost every single situation and every key. There is only 1 destro in the top 10 locks but please continue spouting nonsense that has proof to debunk it. There is only ONE SINGLE KEY that has a destro at #1...DHT...and wouldn't you know it., it happens to be the best destro player in the game for M+ followed by 8 demo locks taking up the other top 10 spots and 1 destro. Just because some of the best players in the world can do good with them doesn't mean much when on average Demo is just flat out better.
Where did I say destro is flat out better than demo? I said it doesn’t deserve to be C tier and does more damage in certain keys like everbloom. If you are an illiterate imbecile it’s not my fault
you are bias, ret has no ST or prio dmg even with the lego, its just pad overall with burst on small adds. you have destro in "bad" yet destro has done the highest keys for lock and higher score than any pally, same with shadowpriest lol
Ya this dude is smoking crack. He put feral over Balance yet balance is one of the few classes to clear a 30 key this season and are in every single top 5 group for all dungeons lmao.
Survival lives just as well and maybe even better than BM as someone who plays Survival. Survival has the same defensive as BM and Versatility as actually a good stat for SV and adds to the survivability. SV has a melee kick which is also a plus. Survival definitely doesn't have the overall dmg or the burst dmg BM has but it does very good dmg and great survivability especially if you can run with your tenacity pet. Just my opinion. I think Survival is behind BM just because of damage but it should just be at least B tier. The only reason C is justifiable is that not enough people play it for it to be known but ability-wise wise it belongs in B. Just an opinion as someone who plays BM and SV. between 18-24. I know your rating is for 27-30. I just believe the same defense holds true. Having specs like Arms ranked ahead just due to a legendary just seems wrong. SV is getting punished due to lack of representation and not ability. Dev got the benefit of the doubt.
I am missing the tier choice for warriors, dks and rets without the legendary in this contemporary tier list since almost nobody has the legendary right now.
Unfortunately I disagree with outlaw not having burst, blade fury and crack shot will do more damage if timed right then most classes.. this guy lost me.
if you are a good ret wchich according to logs u are, it doesnt mean gonna be even close to meta, ppl are bad at their classes, i mained mage last season palyed mage for 2 years before that, got title, now i play dh main, i dont think ret gonna be meta, maybe for you :) but i still dont see it even after the leggo.
Love your content, and I follow you, but Ret are good ish in overall dmg, but we lack alot in ST and in tyrannical week I’m not getting an invitation as ret in a million years, I have 24-25 in fortified week as ret, nobody invites me in tyrannical and I got 22-23 and just because I use my keys, so I’m happy for you that can push with friends etc, but all Paladin I know they have the same problem as me and it is frustrating, for this reason putting the paladin in tier “almost meta” I personally disagree, being able to choose everyone prefers one who in ST is useful
I have the legendary as ret and the dps increase is way better then people intimidated. I am doing same damage as havocs and mages. Good hunters beat us in EB and BRH. Rio 3.2k
funny put 1-2 ret paladins getting carried by the other meta classes at the highest keys and he rates them as that!!!!lmao u can change ret for say unholy dk with leggo #copum # bias list put this guy down as take with grain of salt list.
Please remember this is based on high keys... call it 27-30 keys right now. And yes that is a big spread but that is because while a 29 AD/BRH is a top 100 world key, 27 Rise/Everbloom is also a top 100 world key. I have seen a bunch of comments about a few specs (like boomie) and while their damage isn't terrible there are usually other issues such as livability in a season where everything is very 1 shotty. Missing just 1 or 2 checkboxes is enough to not be Meta when you got 25+ other options. "But I saw X" isn't valid unless you saw it in a 28+ key btw. P.S. ret with leggo is beating most other specs in single target.
Boomkin is the top rated DPS in M+ and is a part of all of the top 10 clears for every dungeon this season.
almost all of this is wrong but what do you know
This dude lost me as soon as he placed balanced Druid based on their raid performance on a M+ tier list
You are just ignorant and foolish for saying survival doesn’t live. Hunter, the class as a whole is susceptible to rot damage, they have pretty good defensives to meet the Ehp checks. Here’s the kicker, survival with a leech pet counters rot.
Survival is actually tankier than BM and comes with a shorter kick CD. Please don’t get me started on other benefits of survival.
You smoking crack i m timing 27s as boomie and literally boomie is one of the only 5 dps specs that timed 30’s, boomie is cracked in high keys aside the defensive issues
Moonkin reliably being in the top keys but only B-tier here doesn't quite make sense to me. They clearly do very well. That being said, unlike last tier, the dps isn't free anymore. They did get more complicated. Not a challenge for top players apparently.
Survivability is a big factor - boomies & ferals lacking majorly in this department.
@@ch.kv. Maybe I don't play high enough keys. But between Renewal, Auto-Frenzied-Reg, Frenzied-Reg, Barkskin, Vigil and Vigor I find it extremely hard to die. If there is group-wiping damage, I die last.
What we do lack is some sort of cheat death. An add jumping on me when it shouldn't is a big problem. But yeah, up to +23 that just doesn't kill me. So idk... maybe when I grow up and play 27s it will be.
@@farminglol Yeah it's so weird, I can't recall another tier ever when boomies we're squishy('ish).. Like you said, druids still have a lot of good defensives to juggle which makes it even more confusing.
I'm only a couple of key levels ahead of where you are now (+26,+27's).. But yeah, even on really clean runs.. The shammy/boomy always goes down a few times. Not so much that boomies are squishy, just that competing dps specs are "unkillable" (warlock, dh, rogue, paladin), combined with the huge amount of spikey / 1-shot damage going out in s3 dungeons.
I disagree with Warlock utility, Gate, Summon, Healthstone, AoE Stun, AoE Fear, Battle Res, Curse of Tongues to slow cast of dangerous mobs. 2 AoE stops is good utility
Summon sounds too niche but say you have someone who needs to use PVP break stun trinket for boss in Waycrest and needs to change out trinket outside dungeon; saves time to summon them back. Really niche but possible due to warlock. Just summoning someone who did a bad release. Very good utility.
If Dev gets to be in B then Survival gets to be in B. If you don't punish Dev for not being played, can't do it to SV either. We punish good specs too much for having popular or META specs within the class.
He underrated the shit out of lock utility, and he also said enhance "doesn't have much utility". He's clueless.
i disagree with ret , ret ST damage is struggling hard against many other specs but the AOE damage is sustainable which makes it good overall. Honestly ret needs a giga one minute use trinket to make it meta.
Destruction is not bad at all. It has the 3rd highest everbloom dps in the game and it's very much competetive with demo.
he is deluded, he sees big overall and thinks that makes a good class, prio/ST dmg is the most important thing for fast keys
As far as we go on pali's, I can't agree, I cannot agree that we are Meta. Our single target needs to be bought. A slight bit and then I'll say we are Meta. But we are doing absolute garbage on single target VS other classes.
Windwalkers are pumping big time now. I was in a couple of groups with one. He's doing 200 to 300 K.
Ret pally assumes legendary. All top rets have it. And yes in that case they are absolutely meta.
Player over speck. This is true for 99% of players all this meta-stuff doesn’t matter unless you’re pushing the very tippy top.
While I 100% agree with you, when you are pugging you don't know if the player is good at his off meta spec.
Tell this to those who don't get invited to pugs because of their off-meta specs
Tbh if you see an offmeta or an a/b tier spec with 3k rio, and a havoc/bm with 3k at the same time, you might think "this offmeta player is good with his spec if he got to 3k. And this meta player must be weak since he only got 3k"@@CaledonianCraft
@@egoralikin4888 Very true, however in the eyes of the general player base they are almost always going to pick a 3kio DH over a 3kio Survival hunter. I main Prevoker and can tell you we are not the most wanted healer haha.
LOL feral higher than Balance is absolutely wild. Big numbers doesn’t mean better for M+. The utility a class brings is almost as important as the damage it does.
Take a look at Warcraft logs and apply the logic you used for Prot pally to Balance. Every single top 5 best run on all M+ dungeons has a boomkin.
Thanks great m+ discussion, I really enjoy this long-form content
WW monks outdps even havoc dhs, they are easily A tier now
The top ret plays with a fury warrior and a resto shaman
im just here to defend ww lmao,
talking about survivability, he we 4 drs, while one of those is on a 8min cd, you got karma + diffuse magic, on 1.5m most on the bosses in the current pool deal magic dmg to everyone in the party so survibility could be checked there, the only issue i've had is in ToTT those bleeds hurts like crazy besides that i think ww has great survivability
utility, you got every single affix checked, need cc ? you got paralysis, need dispells ? you got a poison/disease dispell which a lot of dungeons need poison or disease, let's not forget we bring a 4% avoidance buff and healing taken (4%~8%), making group take less dmg + more healing, also aoe stun, and Ring of peace are good tools to kick big groups, or even use it a "safe zone" like in EB you RoP your ranges and they are safe from berserkers also works in ataldazar
and the big thing here, is damage, i would say ww are doing great dmg right now, i've done more dmg than dh's on keys like ataldazar, wa, fall, rise, but on keys like EB and BRH where packs are just too big and if i dont get procs i deal basiclly no dmg on those packs they beat me by a lot,
im not forgetting about mystic touch but any comp i can think of doesnt include another physical damage dealer besides the tank, this would be prot pala, resto druid or disc priest, ww monk, mage/lock and auggie.
i would like to hear opinions about it :) also great video
I used to main ww in shadowlands and with necro i remember being unkillable ppl under estimate wws defences
lol did you really just say enhance don't have a ton of utility? Their main problem is they can't freaking live. DPS and utility wise they're amazing, they have a dumb amount of hard CC.
lmao he's smoking a bad of dicks. shammys can carry M+ runs via there utility alone.
"Aug literally doing tank damage". I mean, having aug as 3rd dps still is comparable to having 3 "proper" dps in group, considering how much it boosts the damage of the other dps in the group, or...?
have you changed your talents at all for M+ or Raid since your initial guide? Thanks for the awesome content! Can't wait for leggo
This lego not dropping is going to give me a stroke..
C for destruction is truly a horrific take. Does more damage than demo in some keys and has a different damage profile useful for certain bosses. Also infernal / blasphemy stuns
Nah...Demo is better in almost every single situation and every key. There is only 1 destro in the top 10 locks but please continue spouting nonsense that has proof to debunk it. There is only ONE SINGLE KEY that has a destro at #1...DHT...and wouldn't you know it., it happens to be the best destro player in the game for M+ followed by 8 demo locks taking up the other top 10 spots and 1 destro. Just because some of the best players in the world can do good with them doesn't mean much when on average Demo is just flat out better.
Where did I say destro is flat out better than demo? I said it doesn’t deserve to be C tier and does more damage in certain keys like everbloom. If you are an illiterate imbecile it’s not my fault
you are bias, ret has no ST or prio dmg even with the lego, its just pad overall with burst on small adds. you have destro in "bad" yet destro has done the highest keys for lock and higher score than any pally, same with shadowpriest lol
Ya this dude is smoking crack. He put feral over Balance yet balance is one of the few classes to clear a 30 key this season and are in every single top 5 group for all dungeons lmao.
I have ret pala at 471 ilvl and strugling for sure. Low dps, realy high gear dependent.
Survival lives just as well and maybe even better than BM as someone who plays Survival. Survival has the same defensive as BM and Versatility as actually a good stat for SV and adds to the survivability. SV has a melee kick which is also a plus.
Survival definitely doesn't have the overall dmg or the burst dmg BM has but it does very good dmg and great survivability especially if you can run with your tenacity pet.
Just my opinion. I think Survival is behind BM just because of damage but it should just be at least B tier. The only reason C is justifiable is that not enough people play it for it to be known but ability-wise wise it belongs in B. Just an opinion as someone who plays BM and SV. between 18-24.
I know your rating is for 27-30. I just believe the same defense holds true. Having specs like Arms ranked ahead just due to a legendary just seems wrong. SV is getting punished due to lack of representation and not ability. Dev got the benefit of the doubt.
I am missing the tier choice for warriors, dks and rets without the legendary in this contemporary tier list since almost nobody has the legendary right now.
I have for 2 weeks already)
Unfortunately I disagree with outlaw not having burst, blade fury and crack shot will do more damage if timed right then most classes.. this guy lost me.
Do u think augury is good in m+ ?
if you are a good ret wchich according to logs u are, it doesnt mean gonna be even close to meta, ppl are bad at their classes, i mained mage last season palyed mage for 2 years before that, got title, now i play dh main, i dont think ret gonna be meta, maybe for you :) but i still dont see it even after the leggo.
I feel firemage>frostmage big time in 27+. Im a mage btw
Love your content, and I follow you, but Ret are good ish in overall dmg, but we lack alot in ST and in tyrannical week I’m not getting an invitation as ret in a million years, I have 24-25 in fortified week as ret, nobody invites me in tyrannical and I got 22-23 and just because I use my keys, so I’m happy for you that can push with friends etc, but all Paladin I know they have the same problem as me and it is frustrating, for this reason putting the paladin in tier “almost meta” I personally disagree, being able to choose everyone prefers one who in ST is useful
Bro just assumes every1 25 and under is just stupid ??
Hey im a retri that would like to do higher keys but i dont find find a group i do right now lik 22er keys all with randoms
Would love to see you do a ret trinket tier list video!
I have the legendary as ret and the dps increase is way better then people intimidated. I am doing same damage as havocs and mages. Good hunters beat us in EB and BRH. Rio 3.2k
Balance is kinda like aug, bad on low key and meta in high keys.
Hey Gore
For a ret that does not do raiding (except the lego) what are your top crafts for M+?
shadowflame and haste legs. After that rings are a good choice since they are 486 with a socket.
new wow game Paladin will be number 1 on everything will be new god tier followed by warrior and death knights
A great vid, thanks mate
Very nice video
Bro ww is very very good rn. I’d say A/ meta
And any lock is sure not in meta probably A-B.
people sleep on dev evoker :(
Aug is going away from meta highest key was done with no aug
funny put 1-2 ret paladins getting carried by the other meta classes at the highest keys and he rates them as that!!!!lmao u can change ret for say unholy dk with leggo #copum # bias list put this guy down as take with grain of salt list.
Cute bias list lol
we can see a noob
😂