Why an INVERTED V-12? PART 2

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  • Опубліковано 12 кві 2019
  • The comment section of my previous video on this subject brought up some interesting questions. I decided to make this video to address them.
    There seems to be a lot of discussion around machine gun placement, fuel injection vs. carbs, the cannon firing through the propeller spinner, and prop clearance, so I'll address all of these things.
    I strongly suggest watching the other video first, so here it is:
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КОМЕНТАРІ • 622

  • @libertyhog1428
    @libertyhog1428 5 років тому +14

    Greg for Airplanes.
    Drachinifel for navies.
    Chieftains Hatch for armored.
    Forgotten Weapons for small arms.
    The best content creators for your respective fields I've yet found. Intelligent, articulate concise, well sourced, no nonsense, and occasionally some humor.
    You guys do in 10-15 minutes what most Documentaries struggle to do in an hour or 2.
    Great stuff. I hope to see Drachinifel and yourself get as recognized and big as Forgotten Weapons or the Chieftain

  • @VG-ey4gi
    @VG-ey4gi 4 роки тому +78

    ""The Origin of the Inverted V-12 German Aero engines.
    This goes back to 1928 when a committee of aeronautical experts was assembled in Berlin at the bidding of the R.V.M.
    Representatives from the Army, the D.V.L. research centre, the Navy (airships were at their peak in 1928 ) and Deutsche Lufthansa were instructed to make an in-depth study of of the international scene regarding aero-engines and then produce specific guide lines for the future development of large air- and liquid-cooled motors.
    Along with others, Prof. Wunibald Kamm (of "Kamm Tail" fame), Ing. Wolfram Eisenlohr (famous pilot and head of the D.V.L. power plant division) and Dr. Helmut Sachse (later, co-designer of the B.M.W. 801) served on this panel.
    The specifications drawn up by this "think tank" were very detailed and incorporated some very advanced features including, for the liquid -cooled engines:
    - 12-cylinder, inverted installation,
    - mono-block cylinder banks,
    - wet cylinder liners,
    - propeller reduction gear,
    - supercharger,
    - fuel injection,
    - high temperature glycol cooling,
    - provision of a cannon tunnel in the Vee.
    Tender documents were sent to Daimler-Benz, Junkers and B.M.W., all of which eventually produced a V-12 engine model in response although none was able to incorporate all of the required features immediately, eg the DB600 had dry liners and carburettors, the JU210 also had only carburettors and the B.M.W. 116/117 only got as far as the prototype stage.
    The specifications were presented to the manufacturers as a fait accompli. If they wanted production orders, the engines had to comply with the tender descriptions.
    Wolfram Eisenlohr was interviewed in 1980 re the 1928 requirement for inverted V-12s and he cited three reasons for the decision vis,
    - more compact installation,
    - better pilot view for single engined aircraft,
    - less exhaust flame dazzle during night flying.
    Ref: Junkers Flugtriebwerke by Müller, R, p 150 - 151. (Helion and company)
    von Gersdorff et al "Die Deutsche Flug..." p 42.
    ISBN 1-85260-163-9; Fred Jakobs, Robert Kröschel and Christian Pierer. "BMW aero engines". BMW Group Classic, 2009 ISBN 978-3-86852-214-3. p 85 -87.""

    • @stay_at_home_astronaut
      @stay_at_home_astronaut 4 роки тому +4

      ^^there is the answer

    • @FiveCentsPlease
      @FiveCentsPlease 4 роки тому +6

      @@stay_at_home_astronaut Indeed. I remember that there was specification document written up in the 1920s.

    • @tumdeax
      @tumdeax 4 роки тому +7

      Thanks V G!
      We English speakers don't know how to read German so the translation helps alot.

    • @chippyjohn1
      @chippyjohn1 2 роки тому +1

      The flame dazzle hardly seems like a think tank idea. A simple pipe routed beyond the cockpit would fix this for night fighting. Although it may hinder visibility slightly, if it is already dark, it would not be any worse.

    • @Axel_Andersen
      @Axel_Andersen 2 роки тому +1

      Interesting. This kind of answers my question in Greg's other video. Which was first, the airplane spec that requires inverted V or vice versa. Looks like the the inverted V was a fact of life by the time the Germans created the specs for the air planes.

  • @dannosoar2534
    @dannosoar2534 4 роки тому +33

    I worked in heavy construction for 40 years and a couple of times I had the opportunity to work with some German engineers and mechanics and I can tell you that they definitely place a huge emphasis on being able to do maintenance on whatever they are building!

    • @akulkis
      @akulkis 2 роки тому +7

      Unlike their automotive and tank designers. A distinct contributing factor to why Germany lost WW2 was because their tanks required many more hours to for similar repairs. An example is changing a power pack. On a Sherman or T-34, pulling and replacing an engine took about 6 hours wall-clock time. On a Panther, 24-hours.

    • @fishjohn014
      @fishjohn014 10 місяців тому

      That's funny because Audi's V8's are infamously hard to work on

  • @Halinspark
    @Halinspark 5 років тому +44

    Thanks for finding the balance between not assuming we know things, while not assuming we know nothing

  • @sequoyah59
    @sequoyah59 5 років тому +141

    Thank you for a REAL narration and not some dang computer voice. Also thanks for not cluttering this up with some over powering music.

    • @craZivn
      @craZivn 5 років тому +1

      x2! Just subscribed!

    • @bryankirk3567
      @bryankirk3567 4 роки тому

      X3!

    • @martintaper7997
      @martintaper7997 3 роки тому +1

      He does have a very good computer voice - he could fool me if he tried.

  • @martynjames5963
    @martynjames5963 4 роки тому +17

    My hunch is that a lower Center of Gravity for an inverted engine would allow for more stability when landing with the narrower landing gear.

  • @edwardsmith6609
    @edwardsmith6609 5 років тому +115

    Great pic of a 109 with engine removed and weapon barrels still in place, at 6:31. That's the gem in this video of "still" pics. Thanks !

    • @markfryer9880
      @markfryer9880 5 років тому +7

      You're right about it being a gem of a picture. My book(s) on the 109 had all sorts of photos but never anything even remotely like that one.

    • @kellyreim6627
      @kellyreim6627 5 років тому +1

      Same here!

    • @davem5333
      @davem5333 5 років тому +10

      Always wondered how they got the gun to shoot thru the hub.
      Plus having the gun behind the firewall means there is no adverse cg effect as ammo is expended.

    • @paulmanson253
      @paulmanson253 5 років тому +10

      @@davem5333 Some years ago,read an article that discussed the ongoing problems the Messerschmidt people had with vibration issues in the wings and in the engine area,the moment the guns were fired. Since the E model was B of B era,and 20mm were in the wings,why then such a problem throughout even the G production ? Looking at that photo explained in no other way just how minimalist the 109 design really was. Carefully thought out,minimum weight, but just trying to go up to say 13mm machine guns instead of 7.92 mm put additional stresses on a metal frame structure never intended to be pushed beyond what they had. And a 30 mm cannon through the hub ? Enormously greater stresses, to say nothing of weight and bulk and cubic of ammunition. Always nice to leave something on the table for what comes along in future.
      Given what showed up later after that 1935 base design,the Russian fighters with nose cannon,the American monsters such as the P 47,the efforts those engineers had to go through is all the more impressive.

    • @vasopel
      @vasopel 5 років тому +6

      the picture: i.pinimg.com/736x/36/d2/a8/36d2a807f6c748ef576a85da5959028c.jpg

  • @sbvera13
    @sbvera13 5 років тому +141

    "That's a story for another time."
    I hope you write a note every time you say that, you'll have years of content ideas!

    • @michaelmorales7654
      @michaelmorales7654 4 роки тому +4

      I actually would really like to see a video that breaks down the gun placement and round size philosophy.

    • @kyle857
      @kyle857 3 роки тому +3

      @@michaelmorales7654 He ended up doing it in the P-47 video.

    • @michaelmorales7654
      @michaelmorales7654 3 роки тому

      Kyle Ironically Im watching that right now, so far where I’m at in the video he is explaining how many grams of lead per second but that 4 20MM put out more lead/sec and weighed less. I think he’s about to explain why the US didn’t opt for the 4 20MM. (including reliability issues)

  • @whiskeytangosierra6
    @whiskeytangosierra6 5 років тому +34

    That maintenance issue is a big one. Having spent numerous hours helping my dad work on his aircraft - with simply Lycoming engines, I can really sympathize with anyone working on an upright vs inverted beast like a V-12.

    • @Bartonovich52
      @Bartonovich52 4 роки тому +2

      What do you think of a head re and re on an inverted vs an upright would be like? Oil dripping all over you as you let off the head bolts... hoping it doesn’t slip as the last bolt is removed. How about installation? No way to get a hoist to put it on (remember... this is an overhead cam engine and is over 2000 cubic inches of displacement... a 454 or 426 head is feather light in comparison) so holding it by hand with someone else trying to line it up while a third person is trying to get enough bolts started to actually hold it... vs even using three trees and some rope as a hoist in a two man operation to simply slowly guide it into place?

    • @neilaronson4078
      @neilaronson4078 2 роки тому

      @@Bartonovich52 Im sure it was standard procedure to drain and pump the oil out before removing the heads. And im sure they had jacks, kind of like transmission jacks, to help lower the heads down off of the block, not three dudes standing with their hands holding the bitch, growing tired as they wait for you to remove the last couple bolts. Im sure they would if they had to in a pinch. But even the use of come-alongs or ratcheting system of some sort would be used if not a jack.

    • @giorgiotoso1039
      @giorgiotoso1039 2 роки тому

      @@neilaronson4078 I am quite sure that the German procedure would be to remove the engine from the plane, in order to drop the heads. Removing the engine, following" the "power egg" concept, was much easier and faster on a German '109 that it was on a Spit, P-51, P-40...

  • @bobsbigboy4085
    @bobsbigboy4085 5 років тому +3

    It has been my pleasure to be part of a team that overhauls and restores to flying condition DB 601/605's, Jumo 211/213's, BMW 801's, amongst others. So I have some experience working above and below these engines. The inverted V is willing to make me miserable by leaking or dripping fuel and oil all over me while I stand under there with arms over my head looking up into that dark abyss of the valley where a good flashlight is your only friend. Yes, that sure beats working on the ladder in the sunshine. Best job I've ever had! Thanks, Greg. Keep up the good work.

  • @Quikdipp
    @Quikdipp 5 років тому +18

    Great Video Greg! If I found your channel 7 years earlier I would ask my grandfather who was a mechanic on the HE111 during WW2. He never talked about the war but every time I talked about Airplanes and engines he talked about his time how it was to maintain the engines and even some small tricks he learned and teach other mechanics. He even talked about why some engines were designed that way they were.
    Me as an engineer myself like your analytical approach on how the solved problems and implemented them. So keep up the good work!

  • @lukewarmwater6412
    @lukewarmwater6412 5 років тому +17

    I think you are right about the engine being in this configuration because of maitenance. that makes the most sense..

  • @vaclav_fejt
    @vaclav_fejt 5 років тому +32

    Thanks for the reply video. I'm really looking forward to the Fw 190 series.

  • @808bigisland
    @808bigisland 3 роки тому +1

    A inverted engine is a drysump engine. Oilflow follows gravity. Most flying is positive G. Getting oil out of the cylinder heads is a problem with most upright engines. Not so with an inverted engine. Oil collects in the cam covers and can scavenge easely into the drysump tank. Its a proper engineering solution and ease of maintenance access is a bonus. Thanks for your great analysis. I will build my next hotrod with an inverted engine.

  • @pierQRzt180
    @pierQRzt180 Рік тому +1

    Yes! Videos that get useful or interesting comments (even if only to debunk those), normally need a follow up. This because comments aren't as visible and as practical as videos (one cannot listen to them or find them quickly)

  • @xjcoupe1
    @xjcoupe1 5 років тому +4

    Brilliant stuff. Answering shed loads of stuff I’ve wondered about for years. Keep ‘em coming!

  • @84gssteve
    @84gssteve 5 років тому +11

    Great stuff!
    Seeing the inverted prop reduction box on the DB601 and that great shot of the engineless plane. makes it clear how that big cannon worked with the inverted V engine.

  • @tsegulin
    @tsegulin 5 років тому +2

    Thanks Greg for another excellent, real reasoned discussion. I'll be watching for more.

  • @cantrell0817
    @cantrell0817 5 років тому +75

    Keep the vids coming! Really good stuff.

  • @ThatZenoGuy
    @ThatZenoGuy 5 років тому

    Just want to say thank you for your videos. They're awesome, educational, and get right to the point!
    You're the best plane/automobile dude there is!

  • @HernanMoragaMmHs
    @HernanMoragaMmHs 5 років тому +21

    3 videos in the same week. stop spoiling us!

  • @KirkParro
    @KirkParro 5 років тому +3

    Outstanding video, Greg! You've certainly got me hooked, now!

  • @commando340
    @commando340 5 років тому +4

    very well explained. thanks for taking the time to do this. a fan.

  • @LarryisControversial3000
    @LarryisControversial3000 5 років тому +2

    Just found your channel with part 1 of the inverted v12s.
    I am now a subscriber.
    Looking forward to more, thanks

  • @WEITESTAL
    @WEITESTAL 2 роки тому +1

    Excellent work - thanks for sharing. As a former truck-mechanic I totally agree with your observations on easier maintenance with the inverted design.

  • @patryan8065
    @patryan8065 5 років тому +2

    Great product! I love to hear someone that is both schooled in the subject but also grounded in reality. Keep up the great work!

  • @Tinka109
    @Tinka109 5 років тому

    As answer to your topic i found some resources:
    In 1918 an advice was given bij Georg Madelung for the development of new areo enigines. He advised hanging cylinders in the A form. (now called : inverted V)
    The German Military made a specification for new aero-engines in 1929 in the class of 20 to 30 titer.
    Helmut Sachse and Wolfram Eisenlohr were thechnical advisors for this specifaction. Both of them played a great role in the German Aero-engine development.
    Wolfram Eisenlohr wrote in a letter from april 1980 : "We wished hanging cylinders because het top of the engine was smaller and therefore the sight in a one engined plane would be better. The lower laying exhausts were an advantage in nightflying.

  • @markweber4678
    @markweber4678 5 років тому +3

    I enjoy your intelligent analysis... thank you for providing reasonable assessments of multiple sides of the discussion, providing your conclusion, and leaning on documented sources when possible.

  • @Vierzehn014
    @Vierzehn014 5 років тому +3

    Love these 109 Videos, thank you so much for your insight!

  • @carltyson4393
    @carltyson4393 3 роки тому +1

    Just finished watching this video for the sixth or seventh time. Learn something every time. Thanks Greg for the fabulous content and presentation. Just outstanding work. Look forward to your work!

  • @George-bz1fi
    @George-bz1fi 5 років тому

    As usual, informative and enjoyable. Well done Greg.

  • @bryankirk3567
    @bryankirk3567 4 роки тому +1

    Informative, concise and very well narrated. This two-part vid answered many questions about the different configurations that I had.
    Also, I had thought that the db600 only came in diesel. Thanks for expanding.

  • @martintaper7997
    @martintaper7997 3 роки тому +2

    You're obsessed with this stuff Greg, thank you.

  • @billcotton1551
    @billcotton1551 5 років тому +2

    I'm not mechanical at all ,but I can't get enough of these videos! Great stuff!

  • @major_kukri2430
    @major_kukri2430 5 років тому +8

    Thanks. I can't wait to see more videos focusing on aerodynamics.

  • @Wyowanderer
    @Wyowanderer 5 років тому +2

    Excellent video, again. Excellent illustrations as well.

  • @jumo004
    @jumo004 5 років тому

    Thank you Greg, with this video you have answered many questions that I have always had.

  • @billbuckley8423
    @billbuckley8423 Рік тому +1

    I believe the reason the RLM specified inverted V12 was the mounting of motor cannons. In an upright V12 this is still possible but the breech which protudes into the cockpit would take up the space where the instrument panel sits. With an inverted V12, the cannon breech sits low on the floor between the rudder pedals.

  • @piloto2412
    @piloto2412 5 років тому +2

    I'm trying to become an A/P. Mechanic and I dont know anything about engines or parts. I've always loved German planes from W.W.2 and watching your channel is teaching me a lot about planes and cars. Keep up the good work. I'm in love with your channel.

  • @thomasb7464
    @thomasb7464 5 років тому +3

    Greg, thank you. You are a great teacher.

  • @vincentstella5131
    @vincentstella5131 4 роки тому +2

    Great video and as a retired Army Aviatormyself I agree with your assessments/conclusions. Keep the videos coming.

  • @darrellid
    @darrellid 5 років тому +2

    Good stuff as always, Greg. Thanks.

  • @randyallen2771
    @randyallen2771 5 років тому +1

    Nice video Greg but I can't wait for your 190 series! Keep up the good work.

  • @Larwenful
    @Larwenful 5 років тому +3

    Great channel. Learning so much. To reinforce the idea that maintenance is a key factor in preferring an inverted V configuration perhaps you could do a video on the routine maintenance cycles for WW2 aero-engines? You mentioned changing spark plugs. What other items might need checking or replacing? Valve clearances, timing, oil etc

    • @GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
      @GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles  5 років тому +1

      Keep in mind, there are two spark plugs per cylinder, so that alone is quite a bit. I'll try and include the maint. sched. for a fighter in an upcoming video.

  • @TyroneSayWTF
    @TyroneSayWTF 5 років тому

    Great video(s). Very sound and convincing arguments about the rationale behind the decisions to use the inverted V-12 engine!

  • @planejoxcrazyhorse7486
    @planejoxcrazyhorse7486 5 років тому +3

    Thanks for the work Greg

  • @Fred-F4
    @Fred-F4 5 років тому +12

    You deserve more fame man!

  • @jetwowairforce
    @jetwowairforce 4 роки тому +2

    Awesome..! Thank you very much for your time and dedication.

  • @RemoteViewr1
    @RemoteViewr1 5 років тому +14

    Only 24 k subs, word gets out 250,000 for sure. Keep on keeping on, appreciate your content and demeanor.

    • @raygiordano1045
      @raygiordano1045 5 років тому +3

      I just subbed about 2 minutes into this video. Sadly engineering compromises are much more interesting than the title suggests. Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles story telling style is pretty good. No dragging things out, some humor, good use of visuals, casual and friendly narration, and good information.

  • @eamo106
    @eamo106 5 років тому +3

    Greg, I had the misfortune to call you out on something 2 years ago on Merlins/USA Merlins. Since then you are my main Motorman. Your topic propositions are probably born from your own questions and subsequent assessments are incredibly detailed, calling in your amassed knowledge and database to reach a logical conclusion. I will go with the invert being streamlining / minimum drag, so 1) speed 2) vision as being the major wins for a fighter / performance in speed and effectivity ruling. I'm not so sure that the Luftwaffe were so concerned with the blackbird's lives and ergonomics for ease of maintenance though WIlly Messerschmidt design bureau may have been. This is a pleasurable technical historic site ! well done .

  • @garybarton3843
    @garybarton3843 4 роки тому

    That's a great explanation of reasons for engine designs and uses. I especially like the reference to maintenance on inverted engines about dropping a part or tool.
    Murphy's Law states that a part or tool dropped will land where it can't be found or will do the most damage!

  • @haunter_1845
    @haunter_1845 2 роки тому +1

    The cowl mounted guns made the wings lighter as well. The 109 was designed to be transported by rail meaning the wings would need to come off frequently. Fewer guns and magazines in the wing would simplify the process. This is why they had the narrow landing gear as well. As for the inversion I also believe visibility and maintenance would have been the major factor. Compare the nose of the 109 to what it replaced, the He-51 for example. In a notably difficult to taxi, narrow gear, tail-wheel aircraft like the 109, you can't afford to lose that visibility. Perhaps keeping the mass down low also helped to prevent ground loops as the distance between the mass and the front wheels would be shorter.

  • @peterbourne5926
    @peterbourne5926 5 років тому +1

    Wonderful informative video. Thanks so very much. Pete. 🇬🇧

  • @dougdenhamlouie
    @dougdenhamlouie 3 роки тому +1

    Best barrel roll ever filmed. I am watching the dvd this weekend. Much less dated than the battle of Brittan or some other film because they really flew ww1 replicas. Epic

  • @D3adCZE
    @D3adCZE 5 років тому +2

    Great job Greg. Thank you.

  • @jeffhoser7717
    @jeffhoser7717 4 роки тому +1

    Greg, You finally hit on the best answer ! I knew a former Luftwaffe aircraft crew chief for several years and he always said the inverted engine's ease of maintenance imparted a significant advantage . I also consider the German aircraft fuel quality adding to the maintenance load per flight hour . Bill also reminded me the Luftwaffe grew from ( and never had reason to change ) from tactical roots dating back to WW1 . The same can be said for British design parameters persisting well into the 20th century . Great series !! .

  • @Timberwolf69
    @Timberwolf69 5 років тому +1

    I've learned a lot from this video. Thank you.

  • @skylarella
    @skylarella 5 років тому

    Well researched and comprehensive presentation

  • @qtig9490
    @qtig9490 4 роки тому

    Great video! I appreciate your logical analysis

  • @billtimmons7071
    @billtimmons7071 5 років тому

    I found an old Civil Aeronautical Bulletin # 28 1942 (Pilots' Powerplant Manual) that states that inverted engines were used in oval shaped fuselages and aircraft with side by side seating, including trainers. It's a US document but it does seem to back up your thesis from your first video about German oval fuselages. Maintainability also makes sense, but the German propensity to over engineer and their fanatic use of very close machine clearances seems to militate against any care for maintainability. The He-111 used inverted engines but they still needed step ladders to get to the valve covers since the aircraft sat higher than the Me - 109. But, I'm an engineer and arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling a pig .. we both enjoy it. Your videos raise more questions than answers, which is a great application for UA-cam. We're all learning from your channel. Thanks.

  • @brendaproffitt4807
    @brendaproffitt4807 5 років тому

    Wow awesome these old fighter plane's are very cool amazing video and the way you explained different types of engine's. Guns on them thank you

  • @greghawkins1025
    @greghawkins1025 3 роки тому +1

    Thank you for helping to learn about aviation.

  • @elgato9445
    @elgato9445 5 років тому +1

    Excellent as always... thanks Greg.

  • @benjaminnielsen4288
    @benjaminnielsen4288 4 роки тому +1

    I love this. I thought I knew my airplanes. Turns out, I don't know Jack! I learn more about airframes and engines from your narrative videos than I have from anything else I think. As far as this content, all I have to say is this: Germany- Way ahead of its time. I'm looking fwd to your P-47 series. BTW, how bout a series on the P-39? The potential it had, and how great it could have been had it just been given it's turbo, and a fighting chance. Thanks again for these videos.

  • @desobrien3827
    @desobrien3827 5 років тому +1

    Love your videos! Dragged out my apprentice notes, and the 2 reasons listed for inverted engines, Shorter landing gear (befuddles me) and pilot vision. Hope it supports your theories.

    • @GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
      @GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles  5 років тому +2

      Thanks Des. The shorter landing gear is in reference to the ability in a direct drive prop configuration (meaning no gear reduction) to have the prop higher, thus the gear shorter. So all of that is right in line with what I said in the two videos on this subject.

  • @halroofner4069
    @halroofner4069 5 років тому +1

    Thanks for another great video!

  • @QuantumRift
    @QuantumRift 5 років тому +2

    Excellent points, thank you.

  • @mururoa7024
    @mururoa7024 5 років тому

    Brilliant. I love these series.

  • @beinbrek
    @beinbrek 5 років тому

    As a young enthusiast of the aircraft of WWII, I bought a series of books printed and sold on popular grocery stores back in around 1970 on those aircraft. In the case of the BF109 what was emphasized regarding the design philosophy was the idea of mating the most powerful engine to the smallest possible airframe. That was how the BF team and Willy Messerschmidt achieved the fantastic performance and speed the early 109s were known for. The trade off was mainly in the range of the aircraft and some instability issues which required such fine tuning that later copies such as the Check "Mule" became dangerously unstable because its engine rotated in the opposite direction. In the half century since I've done my best with the resources I have to find out more about the weaponry of WWII and some more modern weapons.

    • @dirthdegree
      @dirthdegree 5 років тому +1

      In 'Willy Messerschmitt. Sein Leben, seine Flugzeuge, 1975' Willy Messerschmitt actually argues that he wanted to create a versatile weapon platform in the first place, that incorporates the lightest airframe and a powerful engine.

  • @jamesbarca7229
    @jamesbarca7229 5 років тому +1

    You thoroughly cover aspects of these planes that most others never even mention. I rarely seem to learn anything from watching others' videos, but I've never watched one of your videos w/o learning numerous things.
    Thanks for the great content and keep up the good work!

  • @kaldirk
    @kaldirk 4 роки тому +1

    Thanks for clearing this up. 👍

  • @percynjpn4615
    @percynjpn4615 5 років тому +3

    Another great presentation. An analysis and overview of the underappreciated Bell P-39 would be very interesting.

  • @stevenhoman2253
    @stevenhoman2253 5 років тому +1

    Ever informative Greg.💥💥👍👏👏👏

  • @videodistro
    @videodistro 5 років тому +2

    Funny, maintenance was my original guess! And I'm sticking by it.

  • @kimscheie
    @kimscheie 5 років тому +5

    those p-40s are amazing looking what a picture

  • @petervanhommerig9565
    @petervanhommerig9565 5 років тому +1

    totally agree, keep up the good work!

  • @xiphosura413
    @xiphosura413 5 років тому

    Should have watched this video before making my comment on the previous one! I see you addressed my point exactly, and I stand corrected, although there was perhaps minor space-saving benefit regardless :P

  • @danharold3087
    @danharold3087 5 років тому +1

    I so agree about the dropped nuts and tools.

    • @markfryer9880
      @markfryer9880 5 років тому

      Dropped nuts, bolts and spanners were certainly mentioned by Lancaster mechanics as a memorable event in a hard pressed day.

  • @timcarpenter2441
    @timcarpenter2441 5 років тому +6

    Solid, logical, informative as always. I really appreciate this.
    Beats those information-poor tv “documentaries” into a cocked hat.

    • @craZivn
      @craZivn 5 років тому +1

      Exactly! This is why I resort to UA-cam over Netflix or TV for documentaries. Information-rich and without the idiotic fake cliffhangers or obnoxious music. AND no commercials!

  • @scarecrow1323
    @scarecrow1323 5 років тому +1

    fantastic. thank you. I am impressed by the FW 190 operational altitude advantage and climb rate over the Spitfire even though it utilized the same style of supercharger to produce boost.... that is if these Americanized documentaries are accurate

  • @snowyren5135
    @snowyren5135 5 років тому

    Thanks Greg you are covering a lot of ground in this and many of your other videos. Great choice of photos also.

  • @matteomaffeis1992
    @matteomaffeis1992 5 років тому +1

    I don't know if it has already popped out in the comment sections of both videos, but when I think about the 109's engine bay I often appreciate the cowl-mounted radiator and its evolution along the plane's versions. It's not a big factor when you have to choose between the two layouts, but probably it's a plus for the inverted one having the oil radiator very close to the cylinder heads.

  • @garynew9637
    @garynew9637 4 роки тому +5

    Having weight concentrated on the centreline allows greater roll rate

  • @mpetersen6
    @mpetersen6 4 роки тому +2

    I think part of the reason the Allison, the Merlin, the Hisso and various Russian V-12's were upright is the Wright D-12. It influenced just about all of them IMO

  • @jimbenson3926
    @jimbenson3926 5 років тому +1

    I have seen a photo of a RAF mechanic working on a Spitfire in North Africa, in full sun wearing only shorts sitting astride the nose like riding a horse. Then another photo of German mechanics working on a Ju87 standing in the shade of the nose.

  • @miroslavfric914
    @miroslavfric914 3 роки тому +1

    Hello Greg, one of the companies which produced thousands of inverted aircraft engines of many types was Czechoslovak Walter, a company known for its turboprop M601 engine (GE H series), later renamed to Motorlet, Avia and today owned by GE Aviation. The inverted in-line engines Junion, Minor, Major, Micron, M337 etc. were produced since 1932 till 2002 (in LOM company). They powered plenty of well known light aircraft (at least in Europe) such as Aero Ae-45, Zlín-26(126...726), Zlín-42/142. They were used both with carburetors and injectors and both with and without supercharger. AFAIK the reason for the use of the inverted engine was the higher propeler axis, lower gear and lower center of gravity.
    Walter produced also one inverted military V12 engine called Sagitta but only dozens were built. The engine used Farman planetary reducer (as usual option when cannon in the shaft was not needed), so that the propeller axis was kept up. It was equipped with carburator and supercharger. It was used in many prototypes - Czechoslovak Praga E-51 recon plane, Dutch Fokker-XXIII heavy fighter, Yugoslav Rogozharski R-313, Italian Savoia-Marchetti SM.86 or Latvian fighter VEF I-16. The common feature of all of them aside of the Savoia-Marchetti is that the development was stopped by foreign occupation of said countries. The engine with the planetary reducer is preserved in Mladá Boleslav aircraft muzeum, Czech Republic.

  • @brandonb3279
    @brandonb3279 5 років тому +1

    I just discovered your channel through your last inverted V12 video. I was really impressed so perused some of your other content and subscribed. I can't wait to delve into your back catalogue, and see what you produce in the future. Thank you for your hard work so far and I hope you have a lot more great stuff and success to come!
    Also I just wanted to say that there is a very noticeable drop in audio quality between this video and the original inverted V12 video I watched. In this video it almost sounds like you're sitting on the other side of the room from the microphone (although I'm sure this isn't the case). I would guess that this is because you produced this video more quickly as a response to the community involvement in the first.
    I imagine that so far you have produced content as a passion project, rather than expecting a financial return on your time investment. But I have a feeling that your channel is starting an exponential surge in popularity (that is usually the point at which I discover a new channel like yours through the UA-cam Algorithm Gods). Hopefully this will bring with it the monetary compensation that you deserve, and perhaps encourage/allow you to produce more content with higher production values. I am certainly not an expert at producing UA-cam content, but I might consider myself something of an expert at consuming it! So from that position, I'd like to suggest that you invest in some quality audio recording equipment. A crisp and clean auditory experience goes a long way to making videos more enjoyable and desirable, and thus further reaching.
    Anyway, thanks again for the hard work so far, and I'm excited to see what you produce in the future. I hope great success is on the horizon for you!

    • @GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
      @GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles  5 років тому +1

      Thank you Brandon. The videos on the inverted V-types seem popular, but they are not even close to my best videos.

  • @kenthawkins2418
    @kenthawkins2418 5 років тому

    I've enjoyed these two videos. I'd thought and believed some of these considerations to be the reason they did it, but I hadn't considered ALL the possible reasons covered here.
    There's one thing everyone should agree on...
    The ground crew for the Napier Sabres had it rough!
    ( I know...the radial guys couldn't avoid the ladder either!😉).

  • @robertraczki6220
    @robertraczki6220 5 років тому

    I agree with the idea that maintenance was a motivating factor in the choice of inverted V set up. One down side of this arrangement is the possibility of hydraulic locking if enough engine oil were to collect in some of the cylinders. Because of this the ground crews were required to manually rotate the engine backwards using the prop. This would open the exhaust valve first and allow the oil to drain out. Any one who has been around radial engines knows this.

  • @karlp8484
    @karlp8484 5 років тому

    The breakdown on the FW 190 A series and D would send you through the roof. Many (most?) people are very fascinated with that aircraft especially given even American aces like Yeager and Hoover talked about it post-war as a very serious opponent. Hoover apparently made a call that he could only manoeuvre with an early FW190 with flaps out. Yeager claimed he was shot down by an FW 190 A, but he didn't really see his attacker. A worthy opponent.

  • @andraslibal
    @andraslibal 5 років тому

    I agree with you on maintenance but also think your argument about the cross section made a lot of sense as well.
    The inverted V helped with having a smaller cross sections as a Me 109 had far tighter cabin than a P-47.

  • @1crazypj
    @1crazypj 3 роки тому +1

    Not sure how 'true' this is, but, when I was training as a machinist in mid 1970's, instructor told us the reason Spitfire had carb and ME109 fuel injection was simply because it wasn't possible for the allies to produce parts to required tolerance in high volume. (no idea how subject came up?)
    The Germans were routinely making parts to couple millionths inch tolerance when Britain and USA were still having issues at one thousandth inch tolerances.
    Yes, of course it was possible to match or beat the tolerances, but not in high enough volume.
    Personally, I never did production turning to better than 3 microns (manual machines, no 'CNC' back then) it was pretty nerve wracking as 'we' had to maintain a 95% pass rate on machined part, plus do it in less than 2 minutes.

  • @paoloviti6156
    @paoloviti6156 4 роки тому

    Very interesting video/article! It still has not explained the real reason why the Germans choosed the inverted the V12 engine. In my modest opinion it allowed an easier mantainance as many important items especially regarding the fuel injection system and change of spark plugs could easily been done from the ground and it was a relatively quick job to change engines compared to the Merlin engine. It also permitted a smaller and narrow front and perhaps offering better visual for the pilot. Keep posting and good job!

  • @wrathofatlantis2316
    @wrathofatlantis2316 5 років тому +6

    Engine change was 2 hours on the 109, around a day or more on the P-51 (and most other types)...

    • @facenoise465
      @facenoise465 5 років тому

      Is that because of the inverted engine configuration?

    • @wrathofatlantis2316
      @wrathofatlantis2316 5 років тому +1

      I don`t know. It was more like the ancillaries came with the block as a one piece "power egg". But the block dropping free of the engine bearers might have helped side-stepping the use of a crane...

    • @mightress
      @mightress 5 років тому +1

      Isnt it that the p51 airframe is a tubular construction while the bf109 has the whole front bolted to the airframe like shown on the bf109 without engine?

    • @wrathofatlantis2316
      @wrathofatlantis2316 5 років тому +1

      Could very well be the answer: The power egg would then include the bearers themselves.

    • @jebise1126
      @jebise1126 4 роки тому

      was it? in some other video (some german guy video i think) was saying it was a day of work for 109 and one hour of work for me262... but i have no idea for his sources.

  • @YaR0MyR
    @YaR0MyR 4 роки тому +1

    Lavochkin, correctly pronouncing would be with beginning just identical to the word "lava" or "Laugh" and continuation almost like "Hutchinson" (-:
    BTW as non-English listener, I must applause for Greg's fluent speak and perfect grammar.
    Thank you, Greg for that and for your greatly interesting content!

    • @GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
      @GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles  4 роки тому +1

      There is an LA5FN in my next video (P-47 is the main topic). I'll do my best on the pronunciation, but no promises

    • @YaR0MyR
      @YaR0MyR 4 роки тому

      @@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles Great! I'm just watching your P-47 series at the very moment (-: Happy New Year!

  • @libertyhog1428
    @libertyhog1428 5 років тому +1

    I've been wondering how they did prop hub guns for awhile.
    it wasn't long before I speculated that it'd have to be with a gear driven prop to offset the the hub from the block (can't really see a gun going through the block, let alone the zig-zag crankshaft).
    It's nice to see the mechanics of it actually explained

  • @RMJTOOLS
    @RMJTOOLS 5 років тому

    Greg, really good video and I want to address some questions you put up. On the V12 being inverted. It may or may not have been originally for maintenance but it works better that way. I was an A & P for about 15 years working on many different airplanes. Piston, turbine, turbo prop, and sailplanes. My understanding is that Willy Messerschmidt was very concerned with maintainability. Things like the landing gear being attached to the fuselage so you can take off a wing and still wheel the airplane around. That really makes a difference in the shop. The gear and wings and engine mounts are attached to a large ring forging that concentrates the load at the firewall without a lot of parts or weight. Look how easy the cowling is to remove for access. On the firewall the bulkhead connections are quick release and each one is different so they can't be mixed up. If you access panels on the fuselage for maintenance the components are color coded for being field repairable or depot level repair. For a time our shop had a CASA built JU52 being cosmetically finished into a pre war Lufthansa air liner. The wing spars were tubes and the attachments were round spigots on the wings to threaded attachments on the fuselage. Very easy to remove and install. So my vote for the inverted engine is maintainability.

  • @glbor
    @glbor 5 років тому

    Great video!
    Maintenance issue could have been a reason for the inverted v12 design good point
    My grandfather served as a mechanic at Debrecen airfield( Hungarian Air force) later deployed close to Don river during WWII he maintained Caproni Ca 135s and bis it was a nightmare to work on those bombers.

  • @kevkfz5226
    @kevkfz5226 5 років тому +7

    Loved the comment about losing stuff in the V. Having a Moto Guzzi I find all kinds of lost nuts, springs, leaves, washers and stuff trapped in the V.

    • @dukecraig2402
      @dukecraig2402 5 років тому +1

      I have a US military technical manual for motorcycles dated 25 September 42, in it is all the technical and rebuild information for the common WLA Harley 45 inch flathead that they made over 90,000 of, the experimental Harley shaft drive that was based on the BMW design (although this model was never mass produced 1,000 were built for field trials and apparently as of the printing of the manual they had intentions of making it) and an Indian shaft drive with the Indian 45 inch V twin flathead turned 90° sideways like a Moto Guzzi, aside from in this manual I've never seen anything in print or any pictures of the shaft drive Indian anywhere else, it's a real unicorn.

  • @SeanHollingsworth
    @SeanHollingsworth 5 років тому

    Another excellent video! :-)