I have a Bachelor’s in Archaeology from a prominent London university, and even 25 years ago the discipline was constituted predominantly of self-loathing hand-wringing lefties. That the museum directors of today seem to loathe their own country is not a surprise.
Why is it "leftie" or loathing one's country to simply want to do the right thing and give back objects that were looted during the empire? Were the Germans "lefties" or 'self-loathing' for returning stolen art that the Nazis had looted, and for paying reparations to Israel?
As a southern European, just so my biases are played out, is it fair that people who sold our heritage or things that were smuggled and passed hands are not returned? We have the conditions and the desire to have our cultural patrimony back, would a brit not demand to get the Stonehenge back let's say from the French if hypothetically it was taken or sold? Are we not sane to want our artifacts from our ancestors back, not just from. British, German museums but also the Louvre . In a way I understand it was done before, other people did this many years ago, people are just taking care of the legacy that they were handed, but it just doesn't seem that the English or everyone else are holding these artifacts because they care for historical accuracy, but also because it's lucrative, In my eye. Sorry for the bad English, also I don't mean to be contentious as a young person I just want to know what's so bad in us being able go get out things back and reconnect with our past and ancestral cultures.
I'm reminded of Khalel al-Assad, the Syrian scholar who was tortured for a month by ISIS and finally beheaded when he refused to give up the location of the hidden Palmyra antiquities. I can't picture any British curators having those kinds of marbles.
He did a great thing, not only because of the artifacts, but because it was his only available option to fight ISIS. He was captured, but he didn't give up. He had an oppertunity to spit in their faces, so to speak, and he did. I salute him.
@@The_Mighty_Fiction No I am not. Greek statues or Benin bronzes are not part of British culture so it’s totally different for a scholar or museum curator to feel as though they would rather die than to give up the location for those kind of antiquities that are part of who they are. It can’t be expected that they would have that kind of affinity to those things. If it were the Sutton Hoo treasure or Stonehenge that would be the equivalent and I can see them having the guts to do that.
His truth and yours mate ,but there's a thing called absolute truth ,which most logical reasonable people understand and believe. On a global scale people like Murray are laughed at,because he lies,at least regarding the Parthenon marbles...keep on living a lie Murray just like this fluid gender nonsense, only they and a small minority believe it ,most don't. It's man and woman,but noooo they try to lie ,same approach...delusional manipulative
Wiser men than me have pointed out that the truly stunning and magnificent ancient relics supposedly "stolen" from across the world would highly likely still be buried under the sand and muddy caves where they were. But hey, what do I know?
Equally wise people pointed out that if "given back", these artifacts will be a nine-days wonder "coming home". Then, when visitor numbers go back to normal, the museums can't afford the insurance premium anymore. So the artifacts go into "safe storage" somewhere in the vaults; and no one gets to see them anymore. And then, some time later, when they are to be shown again (anniversary of something, maybe)-- they will not be found. Sold off quietly under the table; with a handsome reward for the employee who brokered the deal. Artifact lost forever. -- I wouldn't be surprised.
@@thekingsdaughter4233 Yep. Besides the stupidity of having "all" of something the same place bcz of fx a fire or a booomb destroying it (was it Brasil?) "nobody" would enjoy coming to see some random new "the same" as last week, month, year.. Ha - in Denmark we are sooo proud of Asger Jorn and other COBRA artists (I haaate the garbage) and one of them "has been painting the same painting for 60 years).. How boooring to imagine 10000000000 of his "identical" paintings the same place.. BUT - if I could shovel in money by "wiping my ace on canvas", I probably would too..
Those of us who have been to Athens, seen the Parthenon and seen the marbles that remain there (they were not all taken) know that you have no idea what you are talking about.
@@thekingsdaughter4233 Heard about the missing coins in some swedish museum? Same problem - and the pics they had of them, that would ensure, that they always could be recognized also happened to be lost.. For millions. Bet this goes on all over.
the british drug cartels inflicted a veritable holocaust upon the people of china in the 19th century. britain proceeded to plunder that country;s patrimony. the uk is still in possession of the fruits of this great crime, one of the darkest in history. british perfidity seems to have no nadir.
As an Indonesian, I'm grateful for Britain to keep our historic document, letters from our Hindu kings, maps etc safe & accessible for generation to come. If they have been left in Indonesia, they wld have been reduced to dust or destroyed by iconoclastic muslims.
@@KanukosanBut… can you name anything else destroyed in that war …? The greatest destroyer of their heritage was their own government in Mao’s campaign against “The Four Olds”.
China was never part of anyone's Empire. All its problems were self-inflicted. All that the Opium Wars actually did was to open China up to foreign trade in five ports freed from the restrictions imposed elsewhere in China.
💯% accurate assessment by Douglas Murray! Tate et al have appointed themselves moral guardians of British art and history, as if their "woke take" makes them specially qualified 🙄 they should all be fired!"
Who appoints these quislings into charge of these institutions? There's the problem anyway... the ones appointing the patients to be in charge of the asylum.
@@manusha1349 it's funny though, I see plenty of the likes of Douglas Murray etc moaning about the people who run these places but I think only once have I heard someone ask "who gave them the job?" That from Rafe Heydel-Mankoo on GBNews recently regarding some charity or other.
I remember attending a Museum conference in Canada. A very loud intake of collective breath could be heard when two curators from a large western Canadian museum stated that because they had an Indigenous collection that sorely lacked Indigenous “ceremonial” artefacts the museum had commissioned local Indigenous people to make some. To give them authenticity as ceremonial pieces they had to be used in at least one ceremony. To bestow upon them even greater relevance the pieces were on Loan to the collection and if needed the “artefacts” could be taken from the museum when needed for important Indigenous ceremonies.I must say..so many of us were appalled by this..the two curators were quite surprised by the reaction. This was woke Canada 30 or so years ago.
It's cow poo and no more relevant than me making a clay bowl taking it to Stonehenge and chanting a few words i'd made up on the way, expecting the BM to put it on display.
@@pendorranI agree, but it misses the point entirely of what a museum is, the archive of human cultural footprint. The moment an artifact enters a museum it becomes a record, a piece for posterity the owner or country donates to the collective mankind, everywhere. It's not on loan, its a donation so the culture it represents can live on thro ugh it.
The woke curators gave me an idea: let's get the museum lend my paintings to rich and notable people to raise its value. Then, the museum could claim millions of dollars as their assets when returned to the museum. After all, that would make my paintings more authentic, valuable and original after passing through the hands of important people.
First world museums have more security and restoration for art, while lesser countries often have worlk damaged or stolen. Look at the archeological museum in Mexico City.
The crowds at the British Museum are huge joyful diverse from all over the world. They are testament that our collections are in the right place.We showcase the best of all cultures.
That's a rather hilarious statement that really only a blissfully unaware britisher could make. You do, indeed showcase the best of all cultures. Pity you had to steal it all first.
@@petercollingwood522 Don't understand why we in the West just can't make exact - and i mean EXACT - duplicates for our museums and return the originals to their rightful countries. if we want to see the originals, let our museums arrange for tours like the King Tut exhibit.
😂😂😂 yea we are indeed very joyful seeing how Brits chopped off and damaged the monuments from Greece and claim to have a right on them. Yes, Brits going to a country suffering under Ottoman occupation and stealing their monuments while signing contracts with their slave master is something we celebrate every day! Well done Britain, be proud of that 😂😂
Warning: Unpopular Opinion ahead. We are looking at this the wrong way round. Forget about secular politics for a moment and burgeoning nationalism across the world. Perhaps we need to cease seeing artefacts as mindless inanimate matter and perceive them for what they truly are: material synthemata animated by the passions and energeia of those who worshipped and set eyes upon them reverentially. Or heaven forbid, actual gods and goddesses manifesting their presence through stone. A civilization that can hold these relics are ones enervated with Spirit (geist) and power. The gods will leave a civilization whose zeitgeist is dispersing. Politics aside, on a metaphysical level it is only right and fitting that the gods leave us
Well said Douglas. I went with a joyful step to see the new hang at my second favourite gallery, Tate Britain. I left with dragging footsteps. An utter disappointment I go to see our magnificent art and not a mad woke display put on by an ignorant management.
since we paid for them he should be forced to pay what they are worth today, I hope they keep them as then he will have to claim universal credit after bankruptcy
the marbles were obtained legally from the then legitimate power in Greece. the Greeks ( well known for their endless taking and not giving * beware of Greeks bearing gifts" ) complain like they were simply looted and taken in the dead of night. if they had not been saved by Elgin they would prob have been destroyed in the later conflict when Greece fought for independence - which they only achieved with help from Great Britain and France...
Send it all back, we can fill our museum with rainbow posters and the history of LGBTQ+. They can have a re-enactment of persecuted gay people and have them cast into bronze, the potential is limitless.
I always wonder about, how many of these "stolen" things would still exist, if those who ended up owning them - yes OWNING - hadn't taken care of them, often for hundreds of years. Imagine if "we" could have "stolen" or bought fx pyramids, so the locals hadn't used them as building materials, and the looters had sold the looted gold aso to collectors, instead of having to melt the gold aso.. Things don't seem to be as black or white as many like to claim.
Correct.I remember when they had riots in Egypt and overthrew the government the Egyptians broke into the Museum of Egyptology in Cairo, which I adored when I was there, and they stole artefacts and even mummies and tryed to sell them on black market.
@@redrumax Irak too. Do people want EVERYTHING ever produced in fx Greece to be returned? What if it was produced by a british artist to a greek buyer? Or by african slaves bought in africa or stolen from ships by pirates? How do "we" ("they") define orgine - exactly?
@@geeboom Maybe they did. I'm not talking about any certain thing - more in general. Who knows the full history of anything? Were the marbles ever owned by anyone else, that who they are claimed to have been stolen from? I can chew up more or less every argument you can come up with, I bet. Go for it.!
Exactly - if they’d been in a museum, then the world would have these priceless treasures to appreciate. Sometimes art needs to be protected and preserved.
@@jujutrini8412 I have a simple solution to these issues. How about UK a NATO member not create organizations like ISIS which would end up destroying the heritage of Iraq and Syria Similarly the Taliban which destroyed the Bamiyans were an offshoot of the mujahideen created by the CIA It seems that western nations are doctors which kill the patients and take their body parts and place it in their anatomy hall and demanding everyone thank them for the "Favor" they did to the patient.
Maybe when Italy has sent the Quadriga from Venice back to Greece, and the French send all of that git Bonaparte's loot from the Louvre back to Italy, then we can talk.
Why do people who despise the collection take the job as protectorate of the treasures of British Collection? Well that's exactly it, their aim IS the destruction of the collection and in part contributing indirectly to the undermining of the civilization. A more important question is who gives these people such jobs? It is they who are directly undermining the civilization.
In the heat death of the universe, when entropy has cooled the universe to 1.1 x10 -57 Kelvin, no one will remember the nonsense of a short-lived hominid species.
Had the Elgin Marbles been in the possession of any other country but Britain, the Greeks would never waste their time in asking for their return. Why...because the answer would begin with F and end in F and the British are a soft touch
Well, after dying in two World Wars as Allies of Britain and after losing to the war effort a bigger percentage of our population in WW2 than Britain itself, we thought we had a friendly ear. This was obviously a mistake
No one messes with this farcical tripe in countries other than the rich western democracies. The constituencies of these voodoo bullshit movements (BLM, CRT, DEI, women's studies, manifold genders, cultural appropriation, et cetera) are wholly dependent on gov't loans, rich parents and deficit-funded unemployment payments to enable their pathologically twisted political rubrics.
You can't turn back time and humans take what they want, it has never been different. Do Italians regret Rome or Aztecs regret the cultures they subsumed. Where are the innocents?
Given that some of the Elgin marbles were on the battleship HMS Rodney on the way to Boston (USA) when it was diverted to sink the Bismarck in WWII we may never have seen them again had that fateful day gone slightly differently. As my grandfather said, who was there at the time, the two ships were slugging it out about a mile apart in the end.
Gotta love Douglas Murray. He doesn't give a damn about who's toes he steps on. His logic, reason & critical thinking is well thought through. The 🇬🇧 people should embracing him as a national treasure. I had quite the debate about the Benin bronzes. Feelings don't trump facts, but that's such an evil position to take for some bizarre reason ?
Some years ago I went back to the V&A to look at a particular instrument in the collection with a view to making one myself. The Musical Instrument gallery was closed. I found out later from Private Eye that the collection was removed to other museums as the Curator had no interest in keeping it. Goodness knows where the guitar I wanted to look at ended up. It was the last time I went to London, I have no plans to return. Having seen the Archaeologist in Cairo on the breakfast tv show the other day, I wonder if the Rosetta Stone will just end up being thrown forcibly into a corner of some store room if it is returned to Egypt.
Thats I used to go to the V&A as a kid, I went back a few years ago and it was rubbish, all the museums in South Kensington seem to suffer from the same problem of thinking people are not interested in things, the only good part of the Science museum now is the space part, the earthquake machine has gone and theres nothing else there, the natural history museum seems to think no ones interested in looking at bones, interesting rocks and insects too.
A good read on the workings of the museum world is "Making the Mummies Dance" by Thomas Hoving, former Director of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. It has just enough personal pettiness, score-settling, self-justification, jealous board members, and conniving politicians to make it juicy. One thing that is a theme throughout the book is the issue of provenance. Hopefully the British Museum can come up with a win-win for everybody.
I think the Elgin marbles don't matter mjch to most Greeks. They are far more saddened by the loss of the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople (Istanbul). The devotees of the so-called glory of ancient Greece ignore 1000 years of the Byzantine empire under Orthodox christianity.
I think I would quite enjoy having artifacts of my country lovingly displayed in other countries. What is that but flattery, friendship, and free advertising?
It's their job to conserve and provide context, not to judge with today's values. It's hteir job to inform the public and teach them history, so people may see qhere things went wrong in the past, to prevent the same mistakes in tbe future.
@@yannistsili6585 Irrelevant, he bought them, and now ANY of the damaged marbles must've been Elgin. It's as if Greek museums don't have any antiquities from the many countries they invaded, or are the Greeks so far up their own arses that their museums only have Greek antiquities- no Egyptian, no Assyrian, no Abyssinian relics whatsoever...? Elgin was given a very short amount of time to take the marbles. The only reason you're moaning is because he saved what he could, and not left them to be further damaged by the rulers of the Greek state- the Ottoman Turks.
Kelvingrove the magnificent, my favourite museum/ art galleries, has been invaded by the self-righteous, barely literate mob. A close look on the directors is warranted. Perhaps re-education sessions, hard labour in the gardens of serious scholarship. But where? I could not say.
Those marbles have nothing to do in London. Greece should acknowledge and express gratitude to Lord Elgin, pay the costs of all the rescuing operation, and keep those sculptures in the Parthenon. London has been benefitting from a very long period... fair enough, but it is time to put the artifacts were they belong.
Unfortunately replacing the present curators with more recent university graduates will probably make things worse. Perhaps hire only people who were Not art history etc majors.
The dystopia in which we currently live manifests itself in EVERY aspect and element of western society, including the institutions charged with preserving art and culture for future generations to enjoy and appreciate. This is just another part of the rewriting of history in order to minimize and demonize the achievements of western culture and society which have been essential in the general progress of humanity over the centuries. Everybody knows that the founding fathers of the United States were slave owners, but they don't know that those slaves were sold to the slave traders by other black African tribes who were practicing slavery eons before Europeans ever set foot upon African soil and continued to practice slavery for hundreds of years after the practice was outlawed in the west. The TRUTH of history really hurts, which is why it is not taught in schools anywhere.
As an indigenous straight white male I want the Crocker Art Museum To display the thumb textured ashtray I fabricated in the SECOND grade to be displayed in the Ethnic Hall.
The Elgin Marbles (or the Parthenon Sculptures in Greek) were bought by Elgin from the Turkish pasha during the Ottoman occupation of Athens. This is unfortunate but the good news is that the British Museum did not buy any antiquities from the chief of the Gestapo in Athens during the occupation of Greece in WW2. For this all Greeks we are greatful. Otherwise we would have to prove that the Nazis were not their legitimate owners and for some reason I am not convinced that the British Museum would accept such an argument.
All museums should have things from a over the world for people to admire. Most of these were sold or gifted by the previous owners, some of it was not even valued!!! Egyptians burnt mummies as fuel, it took the British archaeologists ages to change their culture and value their past, for example.
Met a Greek couple at a party recently in Sydney and they were super passionate about the Elgin marbles. Yet....both they and their parents were Australian born.
So they were an Australian couple really, second generation or more, not Greek. But you've not said in what respect passionate, archaeology/art appreciation or socio-political activism so it's hard to guess why these two races are important! Being Greek, perhaps we'd expect a bit of extra national feeling, and the same for Britain. Perhaps not so very much from an elderly European couple but who's to say, they might have been radicals in their day, I don't know. The couple is Australian, and not newly arrived but well and truly assimilated. How is where this couple's grandparents settled, Australia, a thing here as it does seem to be your point! It even has a portentous, suspense-building ellipsis in it ... 😃
@@tacitustoday3571 I'm confused. Are they citizens, do they migrate to Australia only when it's time to give birth? If they grew up in Australia they are Australian, I am telling you, not Greek. And 'patriot' - suggestive but means what? Please, what do these people believe, and, what has Australia to with what they believe?
@@hinteregions Not sure why you are confused. Grandparents came to Australia and parents were born In Australia as they were. For some reason they ,as second gen Australian born, still identify with uniquely Greek issues. Seems odd to me.
@@tacitustoday3571 No, it is very obviously you who is mightily confused. It's the third time you've been asked to explain your addled, unfinished dinner party remark and you can't or won't, so I don't think it's a good idea for you to now insult me who has been patient with you. They are Australian, not Greek, their Grandparents were Greek and they have 'Greek issues.' Brilliant. This Australian thinks you're not in a position to cast aspersions on the Australian intellect,
To our British antiquity loving friends who think that the sculptures are safer in the British Museum refering to the Afghanistan Budhas, I have to say that you don't have to worry about it. Greeks are a statue friendly people. We don't throw them down as it happens in other countries
I see nothing wrong in sending back the Parthenon marbles. They may have been bought by Elgin but they (like Stonehenge) belong where they where created .
This is something that has been going on since at least the 90s, looking at you V and A, turning their antique furniture into an Interiors or House and Garden/ Osborne and Little (…) kind of medley, adding bits of modern stuff with Georgian or just mixing up the periods so no one can follow the development of styles etc. , through history
It's a hotbed. I completely agree with Douglas but there are items that should be returned to their owners or trustees. It's why there are such strict rules governing the stealing of artefacts or the booty of war. Who would deny, for example, that Totem Poles should be returned? The difficulty is decoding what today is considered an item of 'cultural' and/or 'national' significance to what that item was when it was acquired. The frescoes of the Hermitage of San Baudelio de Berlanga in Spain are a case in point. The hermitage, (Ermita), situated in the Soria region of Castile Leon, is a Mozarabic jewel and the frescoes are an incredible monument of Spanish Romanesque art. It was declared a national monument in 1916 but In 1926 it was ransacked, the frescoes torn from the walls and sold to prominent art galleries in the U.S, where they still reside. The damage is irreversible but the pieces should be returned. An open and shut case of art theft. That is not what happened to the Elgin Marbles. It pains me to see art of national and historic interest scattered all over the world but we have to accept that has always been the nature of art. It's commissioned, made and sold. It is different when it is stolen. In some cases even stolen items are better housed in secure conditions than returned to those of high insecurity. It's an open secret that the Marbles would have been dissolved by acid rain had they remained anyway.
What would be the problem of making visually indistinguishabe copies - and sending the originals back to Greece? There would be a whole new industry here, making copies of artefacts we are currently curating, retunirng originals and and selling the copies to people who wanted them. You would just need a foolproof way of distinguishing the genuine artice from the copy.
@@hetrodoxlysonov-wh9ooI've explained my initial comment who he is. It was something he would often mention. Even recalling a story when Greece was under Ottoman Turkish rule and during a gun battle for independence rumours were circulating that there was lead in the marbles and the Turks were going to damaged them to extract the lead. This horrified the Greeks and rather than see this scenario happen had bullets sent over to the Turks. They where prepared to risk enduring centuries more of Turkish rule than risk having these marbles damaged or destroyed.
@@hetrodoxlysonov-wh9oo It from years ago. So can't confirm it exactly BUT! if you look up Elgin Marbles Wiki article and go down to "War of Independence" there is a reference concerning the Acropolis and to what I remember hearing about the bullets being offered to the Ottoman Turks by the Greeks fearing these ancient artefacts could get ruined.
My husband was Greek and a person who loved his country deeply and was proud of its history, but he believed that the Elgin Marbles were far more valuable staying in the British Museum as it showed the huge leap between the great civilisations prior to Greece like those of Mesopotamia and Egypt and that of Greece. It gives people a view of the dexelopment of western culture and the central role Greece played in this, which would not be visible in Athens. Furthermore , entrance to the British Museum is free but not to museums in Athens, certainly not the new Acropolis museum which would probably increase the entrance fee with the marbles installed. How sad a decaying civilisation we are!
As usual Douglas Murray hits a bullseye. My feelings about the National Trust & its Scottish sister organisation the National Trust for Scotland are the same, since the BLM con artists expanded across the Atlantic a few years ago, my disgust was/is such that I with great sadness resigned my 55+ year membership of the latter about 18 months ago. Museums & organisations such as the NT/NTS have completely lost their way.
I can't find a source that supports Douglas's claim that the Benin Bronzes are not stolen loot. What is the claim here, that they are mostly not stolen. Stealing is okay as long as it's tempered. The question is not cynical, I genuinely wish to read more on the subject
It’s the right thing to return the Parthenon marbles because they are an integral part of the building itself, they aren’t stand alone cultural artefacts. That’s the difference.
@@Leo_Pard_A4 I realy had hopes that most of those sick ideologies trangenderism, postmodernism, climatism, hard-core feminism, migrational boom, and cultural vandalism :) wont come from USA to my country but now I m not so sure. I know that our universities and schools are becoming slowly hijacket too, though there is much opposition to it both in the public and in political parties. The medias here are also mostly for anything which is against status quo, like against nation, against workers, against farmers, against patirotism, against family, against cultural heritage, against constitution (even the ones who like to pretend the great protectors of constitution and free speech) etc... For now museums and libraries are not hijacked though I dont have much new info about their topic to be sure. Years ago I knew many people from the topic of museums and archeology and such and so these people seem to be much connected to the idea of maintaining our heritage but in recent years I dont know whats going on in this area. I know that some of our main universities are hijacked by sick ideologies but for now its still about political correctenss and protecting women (for example students) from inproprer behaviours of men. I think AFAIC see it our medias and our academia area is much influenced but still its influence on the level of yours 90s :) AFAIC see it - in our medias and academia - there is no such thing as exosition of hate and problematisation of our culture and tradition and history and art. Maybe beside some realy small news outlets or bizarre scholars :) The main narration from our political parties is still that we are patriotic (I know its a bluff) :D but as long as they need to spread this political narration they will also need the care for culture, museums, literature, art, archeology, history and such. So for now we get only a mind flue, not grave permament damage of TB :D
The MARBLES belong to Greece anyway...so this would be a way for the BRITISH to save face by saying... well we lent them to the GREEKS and they just kept them..!!!😂😂😂😊
Museum curators have forgotten what their purpose is. They think their job is social engineering and critical social justice. Hopefully, they will one day be viewed as curiosities of a strange period of British history known as “The Madness of Crowds”.
I dont know... maybe some things should be returned to the place where they belong, where they were made actualy, but in some cases - at least for me as somewhat interested in archeology - the most important relicts should be placed where they are safe from wars and revolutions. thats how it was with the Afghanistan golden treasure (Bactrian gold) which were secretly sent away to one of European museums (AFAIR Berlin) in the time of war. Becouse in the case of scientific study and cultural inheritance of humanity I guess the preservation and safety for the objects is much more importand than who owns them :)
@@alexandregarden6260 but I dont understand whats your point ? what you try to tell me? I guess you speak about some kind of law but I dont know what law.
@@alexandregarden6260 I made a serious point, I spoke my personal opinion. What more do u need in this topic? I m not specialist in the topic of law of relicts. I only think that the relicts should be safe no matter in whose museum :)
@@TallisKeeton my point to you was that, in the midst of a well made point, you were, nevertheless, using the wrong word. The word you were looking for was relics, not relicts
What does that have to do with the rightful property of the British Museum? Or do you think, as a general rule, cultural assets belong to the descendants of a people who long ago repudiated those assets (and the whole culture which created them -- as the Christian "Rhomaion" Greeks did with everything "Hellenic") ...just because they might be the racial descendants of the creators of those assets.
@@MrJm323 if the property that the museum acquired was obtained by illegal means in the first place - it’s wrong to keep it (Elgin used illicit and inequitable means to seize and export the Parthenon sculptures, without real legal permission to do so, it was a blatant act of serial theft).
@@olga_b344...Elgin purchased them from what everyone throughout the world at the time recognized as the owners of those assets (and sovereigns of Athens) -- the Ottoman Turks. He had "real legal permission." The Parthenon was in an Ottoman fort (the Acropolis). The Parthenon suffered its greatest damage while functioning as a powder magazine in this fort (in the 1600s when a Venetian shell struck it during a battle). ....He had Greek laborers helping him to pry the sculptures away from the building, packing them in crates, transporting them to the port of Piraeus, loading them aboard ship -- and he was doing this for years. Have you ever heard of the deeply religious Orthodox Christian Greeks at the time protesting any of this?!? Blocking the wagons taking the marbles to Piraeus, for instance? ...No?!? ...It was some British guy, Byron, who vocally objected about a decade later (when he was pandering to West European-based Greeks, because he wanted to join the Greek revolutionaries). ...The Greeks weren't even calling themselves "Hellenes" at the time (these are obviously the products of ancient "Hellas"), but "Romans" ("Rhomaions") who had long ago repudiated the pagan culture of ancient Hellas. THIS was the world in which Elgin acquired those marbles. At the time, they were far more valued in Western Europe than in Greece.
I wasn't suggesting that it should be done in secret. Do you think the viewing public could tell a good replica from the original marbles?@@thehound9638
Psychologically speaking, when people reach middle age or older they want to do something 'good' by being involved in 'the community'...ie they involve themselves in 'good work'. I suspect it is something to do with existential anxiety.
I'm leaning the other way. My community and local / federal govt are corrupt and the citizens are so ignorant and lazy and entitled that I actually don't give a fuck about their fake poser do-good programs.
I have a Bachelor’s in Archaeology from a prominent London university, and even 25 years ago the discipline was constituted predominantly of self-loathing hand-wringing lefties. That the museum directors of today seem to loathe their own country is not a surprise.
Uk the 'bag men' of Archaeology. You should be ashamed of yourself. Euro-centric narcissism.
Why is it "leftie" or loathing one's country to simply want to do the right thing and give back objects that were looted during the empire? Were the Germans "lefties" or 'self-loathing' for returning stolen art that the Nazis had looted, and for paying reparations to Israel?
When Academic journals only publish hand wringing, so the academics hand wring all the harder.
As a southern European, just so my biases are played out, is it fair that people who sold our heritage or things that were smuggled and passed hands are not returned? We have the conditions and the desire to have our cultural patrimony back, would a brit not demand to get the Stonehenge back let's say from the French if hypothetically it was taken or sold? Are we not sane to want our artifacts from our ancestors back, not just from. British, German museums but also the Louvre . In a way I understand it was done before, other people did this many years ago, people are just taking care of the legacy that they were handed, but it just doesn't seem that the English or everyone else are holding these artifacts because they care for historical accuracy, but also because it's lucrative, In my eye. Sorry for the bad English, also I don't mean to be contentious as a young person I just want to know what's so bad in us being able go get out things back and reconnect with our past and ancestral cultures.
@@jeffocks793 You're clearly not an academic if you think that's why academics publish journals. Sigh.
I could listen to Douglas Murray justly and hilariously characterizing other people's states of mind all day long
He got it all wrong on Ukraine, just spewed the msm narrative.
Murray has TDS
He’s the best!
I'm reminded of Khalel al-Assad, the Syrian scholar who was tortured for a month by ISIS and finally beheaded when he refused to give up the location of the hidden Palmyra antiquities. I can't picture any British curators having those kinds of marbles.
What a hero!
It is somewhat different though. Those antiquities were part of his people’s culture.
@@jujutrini8412 😐...I feel you're missing the point somewhat.
He did a great thing, not only because of the artifacts, but because it was his only available option to fight ISIS. He was captured, but he didn't give up. He had an oppertunity to spit in their faces, so to speak, and he did. I salute him.
@@The_Mighty_Fiction No I am not. Greek statues or Benin bronzes are not part of British culture so it’s totally different for a scholar or museum curator to feel as though they would rather die than to give up the location for those kind of antiquities that are part of who they are. It can’t be expected that they would have that kind of affinity to those things. If it were the Sutton Hoo treasure or Stonehenge that would be the equivalent and I can see them having the guts to do that.
I could listen to Douglas Murray talk all day, whatever the topic. Eloguent, articulate and yet ever witty. ❤
And a coward liar ,you forgot that mate
Douglas Murray spitting the truth, as always.
His truth and yours mate ,but there's a thing called absolute truth ,which most logical reasonable people understand and believe. On a global scale people like Murray are laughed at,because he lies,at least regarding the Parthenon marbles...keep on living a lie Murray just like this fluid gender nonsense, only they and a small minority believe it ,most don't. It's man and woman,but noooo they try to lie ,same approach...delusional manipulative
Wiser men than me have pointed out that the truly stunning and magnificent ancient relics supposedly "stolen" from across the world would highly likely still be buried under the sand and muddy caves where they were. But hey, what do I know?
Equally wise people pointed out that if "given back", these artifacts will be a nine-days wonder "coming home". Then, when visitor numbers go back to normal, the museums can't afford the insurance premium anymore. So the artifacts go into "safe storage" somewhere in the vaults; and no one gets to see them anymore. And then, some time later, when they are to be shown again (anniversary of something, maybe)-- they will not be found. Sold off quietly under the table; with a handsome reward for the employee who brokered the deal. Artifact lost forever. -- I wouldn't be surprised.
@@thekingsdaughter4233 Yep. Besides the stupidity of having "all" of something the same place bcz of fx a fire or a booomb destroying it (was it Brasil?) "nobody" would enjoy coming to see some random new "the same" as last week, month, year.. Ha - in Denmark we are sooo proud of Asger Jorn and other COBRA artists (I haaate the garbage) and one of them "has been painting the same painting for 60 years).. How boooring to imagine 10000000000 of his "identical" paintings the same place.. BUT - if I could shovel in money by "wiping my ace on canvas", I probably would too..
Or stolen by vandals and sold in the black market to be kept in the palace of some sheik or prince in the middle east.
Those of us who have been to Athens, seen the Parthenon and seen the marbles that remain there (they were not all taken) know that you have no idea what you are talking about.
@@thekingsdaughter4233 Heard about the missing coins in some swedish museum? Same problem - and the pics they had of them, that would ensure, that they always could be recognized also happened to be lost.. For millions. Bet this goes on all over.
As a museum professional, I applaud Mr. Murray for speaking sensibly about the current state of curation.
Douglas is on a roll these days. Thanks for the entertainment and wise words.
Yeah Swiss roll...down the side of a mountain.
@@NicholasWarnertheFirst What? Swiss roll down the mountain!
Please explain?
What kind of analogy is that?
@danielboard9510 Q. How do you make a Swiss Roll? A. Push him down a mountain?
Douglas talks obviousness, its brilliant in a world we no longer live in, the world should respect that and pay attention.
the british drug cartels inflicted a veritable holocaust upon the people of china in the 19th century. britain proceeded to plunder that country;s patrimony. the uk is still in possession of the fruits of this great crime, one of the darkest in history. british perfidity seems to have no nadir.
Pithy, salient and spot-on.
Thank goodness for Douglas
@@markwilson4374hahahah nicely put.
As an Indonesian, I'm grateful for Britain to keep our historic document, letters from our Hindu kings, maps etc safe & accessible for generation to come. If they have been left in Indonesia, they wld have been reduced to dust or destroyed by iconoclastic muslims.
You forgot all that they have destroyed. For instance, The Summer Palace, Yuanmingyuan, in Beijing, along with French troops.
@@KanukosanBut… can you name anything else destroyed in that war …? The greatest destroyer of their heritage was their own government in Mao’s campaign against “The Four Olds”.
@@billbogg3857 Read your world history to be aware of all the brutalities of the British empire, and better not written by Anglo-Saxon historians....
China was never part of anyone's Empire. All its problems were self-inflicted. All that the Opium Wars actually did was to open China up to foreign trade in five ports freed from the restrictions imposed elsewhere in China.
💯% accurate assessment by Douglas Murray! Tate et al have appointed themselves moral guardians of British art and history, as if their "woke take" makes them specially qualified 🙄 they should all be fired!"
Who appoints these quislings into charge of these institutions? There's the problem anyway... the ones appointing the patients to be in charge of the asylum.
@jumblestiltskin1365 good question, probably state run councils during Labour years. But someone needs to investigate who exactly does the hiring
@@manusha1349 it's funny though, I see plenty of the likes of Douglas Murray etc moaning about the people who run these places but I think only once have I heard someone ask "who gave them the job?" That from Rafe Heydel-Mankoo on GBNews recently regarding some charity or other.
@@jumblestiltskin1365yeah what idiots voted for the oven ready deal. Take them out and put them against a wall.
@@manusha1349you sound ignorant. Thick too.
I remember attending a Museum conference in Canada. A very loud intake of collective breath could be heard when two curators from a large western Canadian museum stated that because they had an Indigenous collection that sorely lacked Indigenous “ceremonial” artefacts the museum had commissioned local Indigenous people to make some. To give them authenticity as ceremonial pieces they had to be used in at least one ceremony. To bestow upon them even greater relevance the pieces were on Loan to the collection and if needed the “artefacts” could be taken from the museum when needed for important Indigenous ceremonies.I must say..so many of us were appalled by this..the two curators were quite surprised by the reaction. This was woke Canada 30 or so years ago.
What's the problem? The items are no less authentic.
It's cow poo and no more relevant than me making a clay bowl taking it to Stonehenge and chanting a few words i'd made up on the way, expecting the BM to put it on display.
@@pendorranI agree, but it misses the point entirely of what a museum is, the archive of human cultural footprint. The moment an artifact enters a museum it becomes a record, a piece for posterity the owner or country donates to the collective mankind, everywhere. It's not on loan, its a donation so the culture it represents can live on thro ugh it.
@@hetrodoxlysonov-wh9ooYou're right, it is like hanging your child's scrawlings on the fridge.
The woke curators gave me an idea: let's get the museum lend my paintings to rich and notable people to raise its value. Then, the museum could claim millions of dollars as their assets when returned to the museum. After all, that would make my paintings more authentic, valuable and original after passing through the hands of important people.
First world museums have more security and restoration for art, while lesser countries often have worlk damaged or stolen. Look at the archeological museum in Mexico City.
The way we're going will have to move them out ASAP.
I thought that Mexican museum was one of the most spectacular in the world
Lesser countries?
2000 artefacts got stolen from the british museum an got put on ebay.
@@mickmacgonigle5021
yes. are you denying observable reality?
Douglas Murray a Beacon of hope in the current darkness.
The crowds at the British Museum are huge joyful diverse from all over the world. They are testament that our collections are in the right place.We showcase the best of all cultures.
That's a rather hilarious statement that really only a blissfully unaware britisher could make. You do, indeed showcase the best of all cultures. Pity you had to steal it all first.
but it is not "your" collection you dummy. that is the whole problem.
@@petercollingwood522 Don't understand why we in the West just can't make exact - and i mean EXACT - duplicates for our museums and return the originals to their rightful countries. if we want to see the originals, let our museums arrange for tours like the King Tut exhibit.
😂😂😂 yea we are indeed very joyful seeing how Brits chopped off and damaged the monuments from Greece and claim to have a right on them. Yes, Brits going to a country suffering under Ottoman occupation and stealing their monuments while signing contracts with their slave master is something we celebrate every day! Well done Britain, be proud of that 😂😂
Warning: Unpopular Opinion ahead. We are looking at this the wrong way round. Forget about secular politics for a moment and burgeoning nationalism across the world. Perhaps we need to cease seeing artefacts as mindless inanimate matter and perceive them for what they truly are: material synthemata animated by the passions and energeia of those who worshipped and set eyes upon them reverentially. Or heaven forbid, actual gods and goddesses manifesting their presence through stone. A civilization that can hold these relics are ones enervated with Spirit (geist) and power. The gods will leave a civilization whose zeitgeist is dispersing. Politics aside, on a metaphysical level it is only right and fitting that the gods leave us
Well said Douglas. I went with a joyful step to see the new hang at my second favourite gallery, Tate Britain. I left with dragging footsteps. An utter disappointment I go to see our magnificent art and not a mad woke display put on by an ignorant management.
If the marbles are sent to Greece and not returned will Osborne be dragged out and beaten to death for his failure?
since we paid for them he should be forced to pay what they are worth today, I hope they keep them as then he will have to claim universal credit after bankruptcy
In modern Britain he will get a promotion for his failure.
@@BigBenn2014 Promotion from his true masters in the EU?
The man is a traitor to the British people. A servant of a foreign power.
the marbles were obtained legally from the then legitimate power in Greece. the Greeks ( well known for their endless taking and not giving * beware of Greeks bearing gifts" ) complain like they were simply looted and taken in the dead of night. if they had not been saved by Elgin they would prob have been destroyed in the later conflict when Greece fought for independence - which they only achieved with help from Great Britain and France...
Send it all back, we can fill our museum with rainbow posters and the history of LGBTQ+. They can have a re-enactment of persecuted gay people and have them cast into bronze, the potential is limitless.
Douglas is a knowledgeable, educated and above all, decent human being and an example to us all. Very few of these types are obvious lately.
I always wonder about, how many of these "stolen" things would still exist, if those who ended up owning them - yes OWNING - hadn't taken care of them, often for hundreds of years. Imagine if "we" could have "stolen" or bought fx pyramids, so the locals hadn't used them as building materials, and the looters had sold the looted gold aso to collectors, instead of having to melt the gold aso.. Things don't seem to be as black or white as many like to claim.
Correct.I remember when they had riots in Egypt and overthrew the government the Egyptians broke into the Museum of Egyptology in Cairo, which I adored when I was there, and they stole artefacts and even mummies and tryed to sell them on black market.
@@redrumax Irak too. Do people want EVERYTHING ever produced in fx Greece to be returned? What if it was produced by a british artist to a greek buyer? Or by african slaves bought in africa or stolen from ships by pirates? How do "we" ("they") define orgine - exactly?
@@CONEHEADDK In Iraq they even ate all the animals in the zoo.
Well, the Elgin Marbles had existed for two thousand years before British aristocrats stole them.
@@geeboom Maybe they did. I'm not talking about any certain thing - more in general. Who knows the full history of anything? Were the marbles ever owned by anyone else, that who they are claimed to have been stolen from? I can chew up more or less every argument you can come up with, I bet. Go for it.!
Never forget what happened to the Buddha’s in Afghanistan 😢😢😢😢
The last time I checked there are no Taliban or any other Muslim extremists ruling Greece
We are not that far behind, look at the defacing of our patrimony by the woke brigade 😡
Exactly - if they’d been in a museum, then the world would have these priceless treasures to appreciate. Sometimes art needs to be protected and preserved.
Those ISIS so and so’s destroyed an entire museum’s worth of artefacts. Barbarous.
@@jujutrini8412 I have a simple solution to these issues. How about UK a NATO member not create organizations like ISIS which would end up destroying the heritage of Iraq and Syria
Similarly the Taliban which destroyed the Bamiyans were an offshoot of the mujahideen created by the CIA
It seems that western nations are doctors which kill the patients and take their body parts and place it in their anatomy hall and demanding everyone thank them for the "Favor" they did to the patient.
Maybe when Italy has sent the Quadriga from Venice back to Greece, and the French send all of that git Bonaparte's loot from the Louvre back to Italy, then we can talk.
Yea. And French should send to Rome all the Brennus gold and the same should Erdogan done to Balkan states and Hungary. Do not use herbs too much.
Western affliction is its own self loathing.
Why do people who despise the collection take the job as protectorate of the treasures of British Collection?
Well that's exactly it, their aim IS the destruction of the collection and in part contributing indirectly to the undermining of the civilization.
A more important question is who gives these people such jobs? It is they who are directly undermining the civilization.
Nailed it.
If we give them all their relics then can we have our country back.
😂😂😂😂
This madness will end with the reburying of all the dinosaur bones.
In the heat death of the universe, when entropy has cooled the universe to 1.1 x10 -57 Kelvin, no one will remember the nonsense of a short-lived hominid species.
Had the Elgin Marbles been in the possession of any other country but Britain, the Greeks would never waste their time in asking for their return. Why...because the answer would begin with F and end in F and the British are a soft touch
🏴🍻🍻🍻🏴🍻🍻🍻🍻is there going to be anything left ?🥴
theres some in France and denmark, the greeks have half the remaining ones anyway
Well, after dying in two World Wars as Allies of Britain and after losing to the war effort a bigger percentage of our population in WW2 than Britain itself, we thought we had a friendly ear. This was obviously a mistake
No one messes with this farcical tripe in countries other than the rich western democracies. The constituencies of these voodoo bullshit movements (BLM, CRT, DEI, women's studies, manifold genders, cultural appropriation, et cetera) are wholly dependent on gov't loans, rich parents and deficit-funded unemployment payments to enable their pathologically twisted political rubrics.
You should have just let H••••r invade. The N**s knew what to do with valuable artefacts.
This made chuckle. Thank you Douglas
You always have the edit option, in an effort to insert "me". 👍
I love Douglas but as a Greek I have to say..if the marbles were ever returned every single Greek person would cry from happiness..
Very well said. Symptom of a civilization in possibly terminal decline.
Correction, liberalism is dying not Nationalism. We have had enough, we will not put up with this crap anymore.
Replace civilisation with empire and you're a good old fashioned empire builder lad.
@@NicholasWarnertheFirst Empire is not a replacement for civilization but it's most common manifestation thurout history.
You can't turn back time and humans take what they want, it has never been different. Do Italians regret Rome or Aztecs regret the cultures they subsumed. Where are the innocents?
Then why do you people cry when immigrants come to your country and take benefit from your systems?😂
That's right.
Why ruin a good museum?
Of course! cheers
Given that some of the Elgin marbles were on the battleship HMS Rodney on the way to Boston (USA) when it was diverted to sink the Bismarck in WWII we may never have seen them again had that fateful day gone slightly differently.
As my grandfather said, who was there at the time, the two ships were slugging it out about a mile apart in the end.
That is despicable, have a referendum of actual Brit’s, no Londoners get to vote!!
Makes sense. Very few Londoners are British now…
Bigot.
Gotta love Douglas Murray. He doesn't give a damn about who's toes he steps on. His logic, reason & critical thinking is well thought through. The 🇬🇧 people should embracing him as a national treasure.
I had quite the debate about the Benin bronzes. Feelings don't trump facts, but that's such an evil position to take for some bizarre reason ?
Surprised that the management hasn't stolen them and sold them off anyway.
Same here in Holland . From Amsterdam❤
Thank you Murray - you inspire me :)
Some years ago I went back to the V&A to look at a particular instrument in the collection with a view to making one myself. The Musical Instrument gallery was closed. I found out later from Private Eye that the collection was removed to other museums as the Curator had no interest in keeping it. Goodness knows where the guitar I wanted to look at ended up. It was the last time I went to London, I have no plans to return. Having seen the Archaeologist in Cairo on the breakfast tv show the other day, I wonder if the Rosetta Stone will just end up being thrown forcibly into a corner of some store room if it is returned to Egypt.
Thats I used to go to the V&A as a kid, I went back a few years ago and it was rubbish, all the museums in South Kensington seem to suffer from the same problem of thinking people are not interested in things, the only good part of the Science museum now is the space part, the earthquake machine has gone and theres nothing else there, the natural history museum seems to think no ones interested in looking at bones, interesting rocks and insects too.
They will chip it up and sell it dangling from tourist necklaces.
Thank you Mr Murray for putting into words my feelings.
A good read on the workings of the museum world is "Making the Mummies Dance" by Thomas Hoving, former Director of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. It has just enough personal pettiness, score-settling, self-justification, jealous board members, and conniving politicians to make it juicy. One thing that is a theme throughout the book is the issue of provenance. Hopefully the British Museum can come up with a win-win for everybody.
Sounds interesting. Just ordered it through our library system. 😉 Thank you for the recommendation! 😊
I think the Elgin marbles don't matter mjch to most Greeks. They are far more saddened by the loss of the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople (Istanbul). The devotees of the so-called glory of ancient Greece ignore 1000 years of the Byzantine empire under Orthodox christianity.
Greece did not lose Hagia Sophia, Greece and Byzantian empire is not the same thing at all.
Douglas Murray brings the 🔥
"to hell with these people."
absolutely
I think I would quite enjoy having artifacts of my country lovingly displayed in other countries. What is that but flattery, friendship, and free advertising?
Lovely Neil! You tell them. Thankyou for the excellent rant. Will share with pleasure.
Douglas Murray a wonderful voice of reason in our ridiculous woke world. 😊
Douglas is the best!
I like this guy enormously! I shall put him right next to my favourite Christopher Hitchens!
It's their job to conserve and provide context, not to judge with today's values. It's hteir job to inform the public and teach them history, so people may see qhere things went wrong in the past, to prevent the same mistakes in tbe future.
Nice to see Andrew Doyle's powerful book THE NEW PURITANS on the shelf.
When I finally saw the Elgin Marbles, I thought "Is that it?". Just a load of heavily-vandalised statues.
Because the Turks were using them as target practice, they wouldn't even be in the state they're in had Elgin not bought them.
Yes they are rubbish there is far better in private collections
You should see the ones Elgin destroyed trying to take from their bases
@@yannistsili6585 Irrelevant, he bought them, and now ANY of the damaged marbles must've been Elgin. It's as if Greek museums don't have any antiquities from the many countries they invaded, or are the Greeks so far up their own arses that their museums only have Greek antiquities- no Egyptian, no Assyrian, no Abyssinian relics whatsoever...?
Elgin was given a very short amount of time to take the marbles. The only reason you're moaning is because he saved what he could, and not left them to be further damaged by the rulers of the Greek state- the Ottoman Turks.
Kelvingrove the magnificent, my favourite museum/ art galleries, has been invaded by the self-righteous, barely literate mob. A close look on the directors is warranted. Perhaps re-education sessions, hard labour in the gardens of serious scholarship. But where? I could not say.
Correct 👍 the bled out from the Marxist social ‘sciences’ departments of the universities and colleges where they learned to despise their own country
Purge there soles .
The fabulous and amazing Mr Murray.
Returning stolen artifacts "unwise "?
Start booting out the curators, whose museums are they.
Those marbles have nothing to do in London. Greece should acknowledge and express gratitude to Lord Elgin, pay the costs of all the rescuing operation, and keep those sculptures in the Parthenon. London has been benefitting from a very long period... fair enough, but it is time to put the artifacts were they belong.
I've read two of Douglas' books and while they were informative, nothing can compare to his retort!
Eventually we'll have to return Stonehenge to Wales from where most of the stone comes from.
thats not true its just a couple of stones.
♡ from New Zealand
Has everyone in the “establishment “ lost their marbles 😂
Forget returning the marbles. Just saw off a quarter of the facade of Westminster Abbey and send that instead.
Unfortunately replacing the present curators with more recent university graduates will probably make things worse. Perhaps hire only people who were Not art history etc majors.
The dystopia in which we currently live manifests itself in EVERY aspect and element of western society, including the institutions charged with preserving art and culture for future generations to enjoy and appreciate. This is just another part of the rewriting of history in order to minimize and demonize the achievements of western culture and society which have been essential in the general progress of humanity over the centuries. Everybody knows that the founding fathers of the United States were slave owners, but they don't know that those slaves were sold to the slave traders by other black African tribes who were practicing slavery eons before Europeans ever set foot upon African soil and continued to practice slavery for hundreds of years after the practice was outlawed in the west. The TRUTH of history really hurts, which is why it is not taught in schools anywhere.
As an indigenous straight white male I want the Crocker Art Museum
To display the thumb textured ashtray I fabricated in the SECOND grade to be displayed in the Ethnic Hall.
No Douglas it was austerity, I usually agree with you. Call a duck, a duck.
The Elgin Marbles (or the Parthenon Sculptures in Greek) were bought by Elgin from the Turkish pasha during the Ottoman occupation of Athens.
This is unfortunate but the good news is that the British Museum did not buy any antiquities from the chief of the Gestapo in Athens during the occupation of Greece in WW2. For this all Greeks we are greatful.
Otherwise we would have to prove that the Nazis were not their legitimate owners and for some reason I am not convinced that the British Museum would accept such an argument.
All museums should have things from a over the world for people to admire. Most of these were sold or gifted by the previous owners, some of it was not even valued!!! Egyptians burnt mummies as fuel, it took the British archaeologists ages to change their culture and value their past, for example.
Met a Greek couple at a party recently in Sydney and they were super passionate about the Elgin marbles. Yet....both they and their parents were Australian born.
So they were an Australian couple really, second generation or more, not Greek. But you've not said in what respect passionate, archaeology/art appreciation or socio-political activism so it's hard to guess why these two races are important! Being Greek, perhaps we'd expect a bit of extra national feeling, and the same for Britain. Perhaps not so very much from an elderly European couple but who's to say, they might have been radicals in their day, I don't know. The couple is Australian, and not newly arrived but well and truly assimilated. How is where this couple's grandparents settled, Australia, a thing here as it does seem to be your point! It even has a portentous, suspense-building ellipsis in it ... 😃
@@hinteregions second gen greek. just greek patriots
@@tacitustoday3571 I'm confused. Are they citizens, do they migrate to Australia only when it's time to give birth? If they grew up in Australia they are Australian, I am telling you, not Greek. And 'patriot' - suggestive but means what? Please, what do these people believe, and, what has Australia to with what they believe?
@@hinteregions Not sure why you are confused. Grandparents came to Australia and parents were born In Australia as they were. For some reason they ,as second gen Australian born, still identify with uniquely Greek issues. Seems odd to me.
@@tacitustoday3571 No, it is very obviously you who is mightily confused. It's the third time you've been asked to explain your addled, unfinished dinner party remark and you can't or won't, so I don't think it's a good idea for you to now insult me who has been patient with you. They are Australian, not Greek, their Grandparents were Greek and they have 'Greek issues.' Brilliant. This Australian thinks you're not in a position to cast aspersions on the Australian intellect,
To our British antiquity loving friends who think that the sculptures are safer in the British Museum refering to the Afghanistan Budhas, I have to say that you don't have to worry about it. Greeks are a statue friendly people. We don't throw them down as it happens in other countries
If it's looted it must be returned!!!! There are so many artefacts from around the world British empire stole.
Because most were stolen , as befits British traditions
I see nothing wrong in sending back the Parthenon marbles. They may have been bought by Elgin but they (like Stonehenge) belong where they where created .
This is something that has been going on since at least the 90s, looking at you V and A, turning their antique furniture into an Interiors or House and Garden/ Osborne and Little (…) kind of medley, adding bits of modern stuff with Georgian or just mixing up the periods so no one can follow the development of styles etc. , through history
It's a hotbed. I completely agree with Douglas but there are items that should be returned to their owners or trustees. It's why there are such strict rules governing the stealing of artefacts or the booty of war. Who would deny, for example, that Totem Poles should be returned? The difficulty is decoding what today is considered an item of 'cultural' and/or 'national' significance to what that item was when it was acquired.
The frescoes of the Hermitage of San Baudelio de Berlanga in Spain are a case in point. The hermitage, (Ermita), situated in the Soria region of Castile Leon, is a Mozarabic jewel and the frescoes are an incredible monument of Spanish Romanesque art. It was declared a national monument in 1916 but In 1926 it was ransacked, the frescoes torn from the walls and sold to prominent art galleries in the U.S, where they still reside. The damage is irreversible but the pieces should be returned. An open and shut case of art theft. That is not what happened to the Elgin Marbles.
It pains me to see art of national and historic interest scattered all over the world but we have to accept that has always been the nature of art. It's commissioned, made and sold. It is different when it is stolen. In some cases even stolen items are better housed in secure conditions than returned to those of high insecurity. It's an open secret that the Marbles would have been dissolved by acid rain had they remained anyway.
what's so wrong with giving back things that don't belong to you.
Because they belong to who has them now. Its called history.
@@tonyc223 I think you find the legal turn is theft by finding....what's so wrong with giving back things that don't belong to you.
@@dai19721 Yes,morally it is wrong. I was being sarcastic.
What would be the problem of making visually indistinguishabe copies - and sending the originals back to Greece?
There would be a whole new industry here, making copies of artefacts we are currently curating, retunirng originals and and selling the copies to people who wanted them.
You would just need a foolproof way of distinguishing the genuine artice from the copy.
How about "Philistinism" as a catch-all description for the moral and intellectual pygmies currently in charge of our cultural and artistic heritage ?
Although being as queen as a nine bob note I do like Douglas he talks a lot of sense
Fire the lot of them, he’s so right
The return of the Elgin Marbles was something that William G. Stewart, the host of the Channel 4 quiz show Fifteen to One was passionate about.
Who?
@@hetrodoxlysonov-wh9ooI've explained my initial comment who he is. It was something he would often mention. Even recalling a story when Greece was under Ottoman Turkish rule and during a gun battle for independence rumours were circulating that there was lead in the marbles and the Turks were going to damaged them to extract the lead. This horrified the Greeks and rather than see this scenario happen had bullets sent over to the Turks. They where prepared to risk enduring centuries more of Turkish rule than risk having these marbles damaged or destroyed.
@@sanchoodell6789 What's the source for this story?
is that actually relevant .. Channel 4 is virtually a communist network in any case lol
@@hetrodoxlysonov-wh9oo It from years ago. So can't confirm it exactly BUT! if you look up Elgin Marbles Wiki article and go down to "War of Independence" there is a reference concerning the Acropolis and to what I remember hearing about the bullets being offered to the Ottoman Turks by the Greeks fearing these ancient artefacts could get ruined.
My husband was Greek and a person who loved his country deeply and was proud of its history, but he believed that the Elgin Marbles were far more valuable staying in the British Museum as it showed the huge leap between the great civilisations prior to Greece like those of Mesopotamia and Egypt and that of Greece. It gives people a view of the dexelopment of western culture and the central role Greece played in this, which would not be visible in Athens. Furthermore , entrance to the British Museum is free but not to museums in Athens, certainly not the new Acropolis museum which would probably increase the entrance fee with the marbles installed. How sad a decaying civilisation we are!
I agree, that section of the museum is incredible.
It’s when some shadowy group says do this and we will put a few million into your secret account.
As usual Douglas Murray hits a bullseye. My feelings about the National Trust & its Scottish sister organisation the National Trust for Scotland are the same, since the BLM con artists expanded across the Atlantic a few years ago, my disgust was/is such that I with great sadness resigned my 55+ year membership of the latter about 18 months ago. Museums & organisations such as the NT/NTS have completely lost their way.
I can't find a source that supports Douglas's claim that the Benin Bronzes are not stolen loot. What is the claim here, that they are mostly not stolen. Stealing is okay as long as it's tempered. The question is not cynical, I genuinely wish to read more on the subject
It’s the right thing to return the Parthenon marbles because they are an integral part of the building itself, they aren’t stand alone cultural artefacts. That’s the difference.
Great conversation
Mr. Murray . . . please become the Prime Minister!!!! We desperately need you!!!!
Douglas brilliantly displays the hypocrisy.
I will be taking the crown jewels for my collection.
You can come and see them free of charge in my country when you come on holiday !
oh, so the "marching through institutions" is coming for museums ? So, inevitably they also will come for archives and libraries :(
Indeed.
@@Leo_Pard_A4 I realy had hopes that most of those sick ideologies trangenderism, postmodernism, climatism, hard-core feminism, migrational boom, and cultural vandalism :) wont come from USA to my country but now I m not so sure. I know that our universities and schools are becoming slowly hijacket too, though there is much opposition to it both in the public and in political parties. The medias here are also mostly for anything which is against status quo, like against nation, against workers, against farmers, against patirotism, against family, against cultural heritage, against constitution (even the ones who like to pretend the great protectors of constitution and free speech) etc... For now museums and libraries are not hijacked though I dont have much new info about their topic to be sure. Years ago I knew many people from the topic of museums and archeology and such and so these people seem to be much connected to the idea of maintaining our heritage but in recent years I dont know whats going on in this area. I know that some of our main universities are hijacked by sick ideologies but for now its still about political correctenss and protecting women (for example students) from inproprer behaviours of men. I think AFAIC see it our medias and our academia area is much influenced but still its influence on the level of yours 90s :) AFAIC see it - in our medias and academia - there is no such thing as exosition of hate and problematisation of our culture and tradition and history and art. Maybe beside some realy small news outlets or bizarre scholars :) The main narration from our political parties is still that we are patriotic (I know its a bluff) :D but as long as they need to spread this political narration they will also need the care for culture, museums, literature, art, archeology, history and such. So for now we get only a mind flue, not grave permament damage of TB :D
The MARBLES belong to Greece anyway...so this would be a way for the BRITISH to save face by saying... well we lent them to the GREEKS and they just kept them..!!!😂😂😂😊
Well Said Douglas.
Museum curators have forgotten what their purpose is. They think their job is social engineering and critical social justice. Hopefully, they will one day be viewed as curiosities of a strange period of British history known as “The Madness of Crowds”.
I dont know... maybe some things should be returned to the place where they belong, where they were made actualy, but in some cases - at least for me as somewhat interested in archeology - the most important relicts should be placed where they are safe from wars and revolutions. thats how it was with the Afghanistan golden treasure (Bactrian gold) which were secretly sent away to one of European museums (AFAIR Berlin) in the time of war. Becouse in the case of scientific study and cultural inheritance of humanity I guess the preservation and safety for the objects is much more importand than who owns them :)
A relict is a widow. Do try to get it right if you are trying to make a serious point.
@@alexandregarden6260 but I dont understand whats your point ? what you try to tell me? I guess you speak about some kind of law but I dont know what law.
@@alexandregarden6260 I made a serious point, I spoke my personal opinion. What more do u need in this topic? I m not specialist in the topic of law of relicts. I only think that the relicts should be safe no matter in whose museum :)
@@TallisKeeton my point to you was that, in the midst of a well made point, you were, nevertheless, using the wrong word. The word you were looking for was relics, not relicts
@@alexandregarden6260 ah, I see :) sorry for that it was wrong spelling I knew the difference though :)
Why is it a weakness to return property that doesn’t belong to you?
What does that have to do with the rightful property of the British Museum?
Or do you think, as a general rule, cultural assets belong to the descendants of a people who long ago repudiated those assets (and the whole culture which created them -- as the Christian "Rhomaion" Greeks did with everything "Hellenic") ...just because they might be the racial descendants of the creators of those assets.
@@MrJm323 if the property that the museum acquired was obtained by illegal means in the first place - it’s wrong to keep it (Elgin used illicit and inequitable means to seize and export the Parthenon sculptures, without real legal permission to do so, it was a blatant act of serial theft).
@@olga_b344...Elgin purchased them from what everyone throughout the world at the time recognized as the owners of those assets (and sovereigns of Athens) -- the Ottoman Turks. He had "real legal permission."
The Parthenon was in an Ottoman fort (the Acropolis). The Parthenon suffered its greatest damage while functioning as a powder magazine in this fort (in the 1600s when a Venetian shell struck it during a battle). ....He had Greek laborers helping him to pry the sculptures away from the building, packing them in crates, transporting them to the port of Piraeus, loading them aboard ship -- and he was doing this for years. Have you ever heard of the deeply religious Orthodox Christian Greeks at the time protesting any of this?!? Blocking the wagons taking the marbles to Piraeus, for instance? ...No?!? ...It was some British guy, Byron, who vocally objected about a decade later (when he was pandering to West European-based Greeks, because he wanted to join the Greek revolutionaries). ...The Greeks weren't even calling themselves "Hellenes" at the time (these are obviously the products of ancient "Hellas"), but "Romans" ("Rhomaions") who had long ago repudiated the pagan culture of ancient Hellas.
THIS was the world in which Elgin acquired those marbles. At the time, they were far more valued in Western Europe than in Greece.
Always brilliant, and truthful.
Make perfect copies for the British Museum then send the marbles back to Greece. The viewing public will be unable to tell the difference.
I think the public might notice that two different museums had the same artifact. People aren't that stupid.
I wasn't suggesting that it should be done in secret. Do you think the viewing public could tell a good replica from the original marbles?@@thehound9638
Psychologically speaking, when people reach middle age or older they want to do something 'good' by being involved in 'the community'...ie they involve themselves in 'good work'. I suspect it is something to do with existential anxiety.
I'm leaning the other way. My community and local / federal govt are corrupt and the citizens are so ignorant and lazy and entitled that I actually don't give a fuck about their fake poser do-good programs.
I only have to recall the Buddhas being destroyed to know that the British museum is the best place for history to be preserved.
BM keep the Elgin Marbles. Sometimes you have to keep what was taken ....better care is being done for them.