One issue with normal outdoor sockets is that granny chargers have fairly chunky plugs which don't physically fit some 13A outdoor sockets, or don't allow the cover to close properly to maintain the IP rating
One nice solution is to use blue P17 sockets 32A. Cheap EVSE are available. Whatever the socket, I revommend adding a Chargehanger to manage the cable.
You can buy the BS 1363-2 EV single 13A socket for £4.49 . I bought one and it is manufactured by Hager. It can be mounted in any standard single socket outdoor enclosure. Charger plug pins are just warm after many hours of 2.8Kw charging. Hard to know if an ordinary socket would fare much worse without trying it. The better 'granny chargers' have thermal sensing in the 13A plug to ramp back current draw if overheating is detected.
The Blue socket ... they have a deeper cover to accommodate the larger 3 pin plug and cable that "Granny Chargers come with. I understand that they are also tested for safely maintaining a continuous 10amp load
@@sotaelectrical yeah, My Volvo "3pin "Granny" charger will not allow the cover on my IP66 outside socket to close. I've been waiting for good weather to change it
That fault looks more like something has gone behind the PCB and shorted, or a short ( ?surge protector perhaps, maybe even an insect) causing a current high enough to blast off the PCB tracks. - the blackenning on the case looks like copper - this is characteristic of when copper is vaporised & deposits on nearby plastic, as opposed to heating due to a poor terminal connection which would also show some melting of the terminal and/or cable.
I have charged my EV a 50kWh MG 4 on a granny charger since i took delivery of it 18 months ago. The granny charger plugs into an external water proof 13 amp socket. I have had no problems, the socket is fed on a fused spur to a very substantial ring main. I only charge at 10 amps and constantly check the plug for heat, it only runs finger warm. I once detected a hotter than usual plug this problem was rectified by changing the 13 amp fuse for a new one. I never leave it charging over night. This works for me but takes a day time charge to replace half the battery. I am parnoid about causing a fire hence my precautions. Note - this only works as i am retired and the car spends a lot of its life on the drive. Love the videos by the way, very informative.
We found another solution, rather than a 3 pin 13A external socket. We also didn’t want a 7.5 Kw charger or the associated expense of fitting one as our EV has a relatively small 50Kwh battery, so looked at alternatives. We went with a 16A charger from 3rd Rock Energy and fitted an external “Commando” socket, similar to what you’d find on a camp site. The longer pins and greater surface area I believe mean it is better suited to long charging times and won’t get hot running at 16A. We manage fine with overnight charges and the cost was a fraction of a full 7.5Kw EV charger plus install. Definitely an option for some folk.
@@slideybackfast they look good, have just ordered a 10metre long 16A commando lead. Will fit a socket and also one at my daughters then wr can charge up there safely too..
Nope warranty issues Indra have been good sent me out a new product for my fault, the test of a good company is how they deal with problems! Good job Indra!!!
It is just a posh outside socket, BG also make one. Their design is supposedly more robust than standard exterior outlets which often aren't designed to carry high current loads (10A+) for long periods. The 13A rating tends to be for short loads like a kettle rather than constant loading. I get a few melted outdoor sockets from granny chargers or hot tubs and, supposedly, these won't fail quite so readily. I did see one melted BG unit though, although closer inspection of the client's granny charger after the fact showed it was a no-brand affair sourced from one of the dodgy online souks and was pulling up to 16A which would be enough to get the 13A fuse hot for long enough to cause damage to any plug and outlet. I think there is a place for these things for this sort of customer who doesn't require anything faster or more powerful.
I've fitted one of these Hager sockets for a client after I visited the Hager factory in Telford and spoke to the clever chaps there (unrelated), basically it is rated to have a constant load of just over 13A over a long period of time without the contacts in the socket heating up and failing.
As you might be aware a 13 amp ring main can carry about 30amps or so, the sockets are built to withstand this load. Any 13 amp socket can carry 30 amps. Therefore any 13 amp socket from a reputable company loaded at 13 amps is perfectly safe.
In the USA we often use 14-50 outlets for EVs. These are 50A 12kw (9.6 continuous) but some are rated for more insertions and also better heat resistance as others have noted. Generally industrial ones used at RV parks are better than one for an electric oven that rarely gets unplugged.
hager not really selling the prouduct in the best light. due to the rise in ev charging from 13a plugs a new standard for bs1363 sockets was introduced for sockets that charge evs. they are built and tested to a higher standard so they dont burn out under a large load for long periods of time. they will be marked bs1363-2 EV and have a message on the front "suitable for ev". this is mentioned in bs7671 section 722.
If a plug states 13a that mean that you can pull 13a continuously as stated from previous standards which doesn't set any time limit on the 13a socket, this is just some BS made to make EV even more expensive.
@@StefanoFinocchiaro this is not 100 percent true alot of appliances that are designed to run for long peroids of time cut back on the wattage like ev granny chargers are max 10a ovens and hobs sold with a 3 pin plug are 10 to 11A. appliances that run at or very close to 13a a good example is kettles that have a short duty cycle and are not used for hours at a time. the difference of a ev socket is the further testing required. if you look in the british standard document bs1363-2023 13a plugs, socket-oulets adapters and connection units page 59 section 28 cyclic load testing which is 230v at a current of 13.4A for 28 continuous cycles consisting of 8 hour on 1 hour off, 8 hour on and 7 hour off. they are then retested to make sure the pin tolerance has not changed and they are tested again for temerature rise has not changed. the price diffence is the testing you get that alot in specialised areas some marine and aviation prouducts are tested to a higher standard and are certified for there application. this is no diffrent.
here in France those EV sockets are popular as they can be installed by DIYers or electricians without the specific car charging qualification. They are more expensive sockets (either made by Legrand, Hager or Schneider electric) but there are differences with other outside sockets. The contacts are silver plated for better conductivity. They are probably bigger, too. And it has screw terminals, with some sockets accepting up to 6sq.mm wires. That size is not commonly used as 2,5 is enough, but depending on the length of the cable it can be necessary to use 6 square millimeters, even for A 16 A socket on a 20 amp breaker. So those sockets are suitable for that. In the Legrand range, there is an obvious difference in quality, a standard socket will melt with repeated 13A charging, while an EV one stays fine over the years.
I recently went to a house who had been charging their car in an out side weather proof socket and the overheating was evident and had burned the live port completely. Also same customer had been doing the same in a hot tub, the inflatable type and burned that out. Standard sockets are not designed or tested for max load for many many hours. The hot tub was in for days and the charger for 20 hours at a time. That Hager socket is designed and tested for the purpose.
Love hagers response ….basically confirms its just a blue case … would be interesting to see the difference between the normal single socket and that bet its f all - hager single socket in a blue enclosure 😂
I have also looked into this,the socket itself is a standard Hager sollysta range.The blue socket is no different from the grey Ip sockets other than stating on the front it’s suitable for Ev charging.(think this is mention in bs7671 that it has to be on the front) You can download the conformity from Hager that lists the part numbers of the sockets that meet the British standards.
That's interesting, Sergio. Last Friday I removed & reinstalled an indra for my customer as he was moving house. Charger was reinstalled at the new address, all working & connected back on my customers app. Got a call the next day, charger dead. Went back to site & found d the live had come out of the wago terminal. I kicked myself obviously but in my defence I pigged tailed the ends to take any strain off the terminals buy it still came out.
I would say the important thing is to put it on it's own circuit as it will constantly draw 10A. Personally I would have advised a 15A socket so they can potentially use a 3.5kW granny charger. That's whar I did originally.
About 50 years ago, we used to install 15A BS746 sockets for sterilizing sinks which drew 3kw constantly, 13A sockets tended to overheat due to the fuse heat generation.Ever wondered way stage lighting uses BS746 sockets as standard?
A standard UK 3 pin socket is rated at 8 amps continuous power and 13 Amp peak. Many hybrid / EV granny chargers can be 13 Amps so I would fit a 32 Amp commando socket.
Fairly certain most sockets can only take 10A continuously where as this maybe can withstand up to 13, also Have noticed these make it clear that it is for ev charging so people dont get confused and plug something else in where it could be controlled ie on an off peak tarriff etc
Oh on another note if I where you I would feed back the design of the wago style connector should be rotated 180 so they need to be lifted up rather than flipped down to release. Heat expansion contraction vibration and gravity for a release mechanism like that personally think it should be as I described really.
The ones i have fitted (cant remember the make) have a dp type A rcd module next them and state they are rated as an EV connection point. If it shows thermal effects then it will be covered by warranty whereas a standard 13 amp single socket would not be.
I assume that a 13A sockets expressly installed for EV charging must use TT earthing, not TN-C-S or have PEN protection, as there is the same danger of the car chassis going "live" that there is with a 7kW charger in the event of a broken PEN.
I'm no expert but I understood that recent-ish changes to EV charging regulations in the UK require an earth spike to be used as part of the installation to deal with the risk of supplier earth faults. I can see no reason why a 13a outside socket should be any different to a full external 7kw EV charger in relation to this risk. Do you install with earth rod ?
Cheap outside sockets tend to breakdown under UV light (sunlight) so it maybe more durable, also maybe slightly higher grade conductors and obviously tested. There seems to be a lot of unnecessary profit on some EV products
We have an ev but we do not need an expensive home charger so I had my sparky install a 16a blue commando socket with associated wiring back to the consumer board with it's own breaker. I bought a commercially available charge lead which can be set for a range between 6a and 16a charging. Bonus is that as it has the blue commando plug that is used on campsites, we take the lead with us when we go camping. 👍
Just some advice for you, make sure he has installed a separate board for PEN fault detection, or earth spiked it, installed a separate circuit and provided type A RCD protection, if not you have a potentially dangerous installation
perhaps a locking tab over the lever connectors would prevent them from well doing that , would be a sensible feature just like the way the wago junction boxes work , that is obviously for the few who know how to use them 🤣😂
For most people (doing less than 8,000 miles pa) an EV rated 13a socket like the Hagar will be enough. Charge slowly 2 or 3 times a week and you will always be OK. Example - 8,000 miles pa / 365 days is 22 miles a day @ 4 miles per kw = just 5.5kw of charging per day. Of course some days you will do a load of miles - just make sure on those days you start full. If you have 2 cars it may get tougher to live with the 13a but its still worth a go.
I don't know if it matters, but in my country, we say that full usage, for example 10 or 13 A, is the maximum for 2 or 4 hours (I can't remember the rule 100 percent). Could it be because the blue one is approved for 13 A for a longer period?
They are rated to handle the 13A load for extend duration of times, I fitted many and never had a issue with them, had many other standard sockets burn up
My head is hurting trying to work this out. We just got a PHEV with a 14kw battery. In the week weve had it , it's needed charging almost every day. I was going to get an outdoor socket like the Master plug but then thought maybe get a proper wall charger like the Ohme you showed. Which you didn't seem fond of and sounds unreliable. Based on one video I've seen though! The cost is around ten times the difference. Im not an electrician but I do have a family that I dont want to endanger unknowingly. What are my realistic and safe options. Either or just one of them? Thanks.
Good Afternoon, so basically in order to charge your car safely you need something installed called PEN Fault protection, the EV chargers have this built in normally. A normal double socket does not offer this protection, my advice is, get a decent home charger installed, I don’t like the Ohme personally. I know it can be expensive but you probably forked out a lot for the new car so don’t scrimp on the thing that’s going to charge it safely
@sotaelectrical Oosh that's a great looking piece of kit but would have to get an electrician in and trust them to do it properly. Have also seen the Hypervolt Pro 3. That also looks nicer than the Ohme. Will have a think. Thanks again, appreciate you responding.
From what I've seen I'm guessing it's better at dealing with the thermal output of long use with a EV charger. Have seen alot of people say that when using a 3 pin charger it can over heat standard sockets
The Hager socket is marked EV on the rear which is a requirement for sockets whose main use is for long term EV charging use. Problem is there is no PEN fault protection like you get with proper 7kw chargers. I wouldn't put it on a spur. Probably on its own 16a radial.
Yes, but by the time you've installed something like a Matt:E to the 13a Hager socket, you're probably not a million miles away from the cost of a Hydra Cubus. I know the customer only has a PHEV but depending on their current consumer unit there's possibly only a hundred quid between them
Arr the electricians nose you are lost without it. I am not joking, lost my smell with Covid still can’t smell much nearly 3 years on. Was working on a control panel that was blowing the control fuse and had to get the customer to do the smell test to find the problem. It’s crazy when you can’t smell a burnt out motor 😱
Did they offer you a fee to change their faulty unit? I've never ever heard of a manufacturer willing to do that. I guess that socket will be the same reason why we fit 20a double pole switches to water heaters.
13A plugs/sockets suck for EV granny chargers as the constant high load means the fuse in the plug gets hot and some poor quality plugs/sockets can end melting. I ended up changing the plug on my granny lead to a blue 16A connector and use an interlocked socket at home. I also keep an adapter for the times I actually have to use a 13A socket.
That blue socket is a rip off! Charged plug in hybrids off a normal 13 amp outdoor socket with no trouble at all. Why not get you a little magnet on a stick from Amazon to get the recessed screws out of those EV boxes?
I thought that any installation that is to be used to charge an EV has to comply with the same regs as a proper EV charge point. Such as PEN protection and a different trip system. As this is actually sold as an EV socket why hasn't it got the PEN protection built in?
@@sotaelectrical That mandated protection would take the cost of installation to almost the same cost as a proper EVSE charge point. Perhaps a ground earth spike to create a TT situation would work instead of a PEN device but at a cost. And even then the extra work in the CU to change to reg trips is at a cost. TBH I'm amazed that the seller of that 13amp 'solution' is not advising on the mandated regs for EV charging.
It's not the connectors, they are fine. It's a failure in the lacquer covering the soldered connection onto the PCB. This is a very common fault with new companies. In my previous company we came across a similar product from an Italian Manufacturer. They had not taken into account the moisture and oxidation and quite rapidly they had 10's of thousands blown panels usually on the back of the mains terminals.
Looks like a normal outdoor IP66 single socket, not obvious electronics or anything to detect over heating due to prolonged usage. Hager didnt really sell it well :(
Most granny chargers have temperature sensors in the plug, to reduce charge current if temperature rises too much - reducing current isn't possible to do from the socket side.
Enjoying your videos. With the Indra charger I would have put a lock out kit on the cu for added safety just incase someone else came along and reenergised it by mistake (belt and braces), interested on your thoughts on this.
Well it physically won’t turn on anymore and their are no kids in the house, customers told to leave it alone and they are sensible people who don’t like electrics hence calling me out when their was a problem, let’s be realistic about these things
eFixx did a video about EV certified sockets, as required in BS7671. Yes the physical difference may well just be in the testing that's performed, but that's still a valid difference.
It should have a label / embossed mark on the front of the plate saying suitable for EV. Fully visible to anyone looking at it. I think that's to meet BS7288. I fitted a few of the Masterplug Mode 2 13A sockets years ago for use with hybrids; the Masterplug one had an RCBO fitted to the left of the 13A BS1363 socket.
Only one faulty...... I've been out to as many faulty ones as I have new installs.... I've fitted good volume of the most popular chargers and.... Well guess the rest.... Always been good on the support though 👍
Im surprised the Hager socket has a switch this is always a weak point in sockets due to their small contact areas increading resistance and getting warm. The Mastetplug/Luceco ev socket omits the switch and also has a 16A type A rcbo on board, much better in my opinion. How much is the Hager one?
I don't get why someone would hire an electrician to come out and install this instead of spending £300 more and getting a full fat 7.6kW charger. When you eventually go BEV, you'll end up paying more to have it replaced with an actual EVSE in the long run, vs if you just did it from day 1. Not to mention most hybrid cars now take 7.4kw or so and if friends or family visit, it might be useful for them to use. Worth the £300 in my opinion. If you can't afford the extra £300 then I'd say buy an EV and IP rated extension lead and use a regular 13 amp socket from your house and limit the current to 10 amps or so. Then in a few months maybe re-consider an actual EVSE. At the very least if you're going to overspend on a fancy plug, at least have them install an EV ultra cable to it for the future so you can swap It out easily.
I have a hybrid and chose the Hager socket as the cheaper alternative my reasoning being it takes roughly 4 hrs to fully charge my battery giving me a 35 mile range this I can do comfortably if need by using the cars app to set the time from midnight when I get my EV cheap rate to 4am and have a fully charged car no need for a 7.5 KW charger works for me and no I wont be upgrading to full EV hybrid gives me the best of both worlds.
@@David-sb7fdsame how me but I starting but thinking that will enough. Please are you using your house socket or you create new circuit just for this ev socket? If yes are using classic 2.5 or 16mm cable and what mcb 32A or more? Thank you for your answer.
The copper is increased in size on a competitor’s model. The lad on the other side of the call was not 100% on the question so blagged his response to get you off the call. The product though should have gone through additional testing and be appropriately marked up to state it is okay for ev charging. The socket should be individually fed though and not supplied off any other circuit Atype Rcd / afdd. Going by the latest ev guidance notes
You skipped over the part when you asked if you were going to get paid under the EV charger manufacturer warranty were you compensated. The Hager blue socket item you called about it seemed to me that the assistant basically know any information about it or in fact knew they existed.
Hager also forces us this kind of nonsense on France by using normative requirements. People get by by using blue P17 sockets (16 or 32A) which are loads better and more robust than dedicated products. Just install it at height to avoid children hands, as it has no shutters. Whatever the socket, add a chargehanger to your setup 😃
This is the issue with EV’s or Solar equiptment failure so poor sparky back to the job when there is not a lot of profit in the job in the first place and that's not allowing for membership fees and insurance
I wondered about this special socket thing so being the exciting chap that I am, I read the British Standard (can get it at work for free): BS1363-2 gives a different test spec for sockets intended to charge EVs - and says they should be labelled with "BS1363-2 /EV" on the back. The colour is just manufacturer preference. All sockets undergo a test for breaking capacity (of switch and by disconnection) and a test normal operation wear life (ie voltage drop on switch and receptacle contacts after x cycles) - this is done at 1.25x the rated current (ie 1.25x13). For normal sockets the load is substantially non-inductive but for “EV” sockets the load must have a power factor of 0.6. "EV" sockets have an additional cyclic load test: 28 cycles of 8h on, 1h off, 8h on, 7h off - all at 13A. There isn’t an equivalent for non /EV All sockets (regardless of /EV) must complete a temperature rise test: Max 52K rise during a minimum continuous period of 4 h or longer until temperature stability is reached with a maximum duration of 8 h, stability being taken as less than 1K rise within 1 h. This test is performed at 14 (fourteen) amps load for a single outlet socket or 14+6A for a two outlet socket. Power factor is not specified for this test.
Hi. There are a numbers of EV 13amp sockets on the market and they are built over rated …. ie… Hagar is built to 20amp ( internal components) larger contacts larger springs….. and high heat rated plastics…. So just over engineered…. Or look at it another way… your kitchen toaster works fine on normal socket … but leave it on for 8 hrs and it will burn out the internals of socket but since a toaster only runs for 3 minutes at a time there is no problem …. Run it for 8hrs and it will fail
Hi mate, I've got ohme pro and fitter from ohme replaced it as one was faulty and done it in pooing fat rain, the inside of box was wet, he didn't give a crap, funny water tracked up the cable and condensated on screen. Ohme failed to come back to me. Brackets are shit. App is OK, could be do much better.
Those indra terminals are rubbish, just recently started fitting them and they seem to pop out easily, im scared ill have a callback with this issue now
Iv replaced loads burnt out. The levers give up top feed to car and bottom feed in. Had the pcb bored burn out at the bottom around the built in rcd and around the built in ct just under the top block. Iv had both 6mm and 4mm feeds burn out. Indra very good at replacing and know and u derstand the fault. The sad thing is the new unit they have has the same Internals but a diffrant out look. I find they last about 12 months and shorter with a tesla.
The charger tthatt made the popping sounds is awful. Lots of exposed PCB. My own charger has an EVSE module, a contactor module and a main switch/RCD module. Everyhing is inside a module and it works just fine. The EVSE module in my charger is less than £100 and tthe restt of ittis prety much bog standard. Regarding granny chargers and 13 amp sockets I had an overheating problem charging at 3kw so I now charge at 2kw with no problems.
The person at customer support has to deal with a whole host of products and enquiries, that person did not design the product, he's not the most knowledgeable person to respond to your questions. I'm not saying that this socket is different, but I would assume it was beefed up to take 13A for many hours continuously, and the regular socket isn't designed to take full power for hours and hours.
if you have an hybrid you don't need a charger, you have a plugin "hybrid" which is an EV I blame no one other than the manufacturers for that mistake HEV PHEV FHEV EV BEV it's like they make a new one every 6 months
Can you fix the video by removing the music and upload it again so we can watch it? At the moment the video is unwatchable. The loud music adds no value and is not relevant to the content. Think about people with hearing problems, how would that music make any difference to the content? I know you are just trying to copy the style of others, but it doesn't work.
One issue with normal outdoor sockets is that granny chargers have fairly chunky plugs which don't physically fit some 13A outdoor sockets, or don't allow the cover to close properly to maintain the IP rating
One nice solution is to use blue P17 sockets 32A. Cheap EVSE are available.
Whatever the socket, I revommend adding a Chargehanger to manage the cable.
You can buy the BS 1363-2 EV single 13A socket for £4.49 . I bought one and it is manufactured by Hager. It can be mounted in any standard single socket outdoor enclosure. Charger plug pins are just warm after many hours of 2.8Kw charging. Hard to know if an ordinary socket would fare much worse without trying it.
The better 'granny chargers' have thermal sensing in the 13A plug to ramp back current draw if overheating is detected.
Loving your work Mate. Genuinely look forward to your updates every day now.
Thank you mate 👍👍
You're welcome for the help. I never knew I would be on a youtube video after the call! Haha
You legend
The Blue socket ... they have a deeper cover to accommodate the larger 3 pin plug and cable that "Granny Chargers come with. I understand that they are also tested for safely maintaining a continuous 10amp load
Interesting thanks for sharing!!
@@sotaelectrical yeah, My Volvo "3pin "Granny" charger will not allow the cover on my IP66 outside socket to close. I've been waiting for good weather to change it
10 amps is 2kw or thereabouts. I would not recommend charging for long periods at 13 amps.
@@rogerphelps9939 but you don't charge at 13amps - that is why Granny Chargers operate at 10amps and have a thermal cut-out
That fault looks more like something has gone behind the PCB and shorted, or a short ( ?surge protector perhaps, maybe even an insect) causing a current high enough to blast off the PCB tracks. - the blackenning on the case looks like copper - this is characteristic of when copper is vaporised & deposits on nearby plastic, as opposed to heating due to a poor terminal connection which would also show some melting of the terminal and/or cable.
I have charged my EV a 50kWh MG 4 on a granny charger since i took delivery of it 18 months ago. The granny charger plugs into an external water proof 13 amp socket. I have had no problems, the socket is fed on a fused spur to a very substantial ring main. I only charge at 10 amps and constantly check the plug for heat, it only runs finger warm. I once detected a hotter than usual plug this problem was rectified by changing the 13 amp fuse for a new one. I never leave it charging over night. This works for me but takes a day time charge to replace half the battery. I am parnoid about causing a fire hence my precautions. Note - this only works as i am retired and the car spends a lot of its life on the drive. Love the videos by the way, very informative.
Thanks for sharing and thanks for watching!! 👍👍
We found another solution, rather than a 3 pin 13A external socket. We also didn’t want a 7.5 Kw charger or the associated expense of fitting one as our EV has a relatively small 50Kwh battery, so looked at alternatives. We went with a 16A charger from 3rd Rock Energy and fitted an external “Commando” socket, similar to what you’d find on a camp site. The longer pins and greater surface area I believe mean it is better suited to long charging times and won’t get hot running at 16A. We manage fine with overnight charges and the cost was a fraction of a full 7.5Kw EV charger plus install. Definitely an option for some folk.
Great information!! Thanks for sharing!!
Snap.
@@slideybackfast they look good, have just ordered a 10metre long 16A commando lead. Will fit a socket and also one at my daughters then wr can charge up there safely too..
Nope warranty issues Indra have been good sent me out a new product for my fault, the test of a good company is how they deal with problems! Good job Indra!!!
I agree!!!
They’ve been very catty with me and just cutting me off, same with eo, I’ve had nothing but disrespect from them
@@O.i5 sorry to hear that!
Hey Sota, brilliant stuff as per usual! ❤ I need to see more in depth vids mate. Thanks 😊
Thank you!!
It is just a posh outside socket, BG also make one. Their design is supposedly more robust than standard exterior outlets which often aren't designed to carry high current loads (10A+) for long periods. The 13A rating tends to be for short loads like a kettle rather than constant loading. I get a few melted outdoor sockets from granny chargers or hot tubs and, supposedly, these won't fail quite so readily. I did see one melted BG unit though, although closer inspection of the client's granny charger after the fact showed it was a no-brand affair sourced from one of the dodgy online souks and was pulling up to 16A which would be enough to get the 13A fuse hot for long enough to cause damage to any plug and outlet. I think there is a place for these things for this sort of customer who doesn't require anything faster or more powerful.
@@dsesuk a £10 one from Screwfix is better, and it's dual.
I've fitted one of these Hager sockets for a client after I visited the Hager factory in Telford and spoke to the clever chaps there (unrelated), basically it is rated to have a constant load of just over 13A over a long period of time without the contacts in the socket heating up and failing.
Great info thanks for commenting!!
My 13A EV charger (granny charger) limits the current drawn to 10A, therefore ANY external 13A socket will do.
In that case these Hager EV sockets would also be good for one of those small 13amp hot tubs people have as they too draw a load for a long time
As you might be aware a 13 amp ring main can carry about 30amps or so, the sockets are built to withstand this load. Any 13 amp socket can carry 30 amps. Therefore any 13 amp socket from a reputable company loaded at 13 amps is perfectly safe.
In the USA we often use 14-50 outlets for EVs. These are 50A 12kw (9.6 continuous) but some are rated for more insertions and also better heat resistance as others have noted. Generally industrial ones used at RV parks are better than one for an electric oven that rarely gets unplugged.
Did you fit PEN fault protection with that fancy 13A socket?
hager not really selling the prouduct in the best light. due to the rise in ev charging from 13a plugs a new standard for bs1363 sockets was introduced for sockets that charge evs. they are built and tested to a higher standard so they dont burn out under a large load for long periods of time. they will be marked bs1363-2 EV and have a message on the front "suitable for ev". this is mentioned in bs7671 section 722.
If a plug states 13a that mean that you can pull 13a continuously as stated from previous standards which doesn't set any time limit on the 13a socket, this is just some BS made to make EV even more expensive.
@@StefanoFinocchiaro this is not 100 percent true alot of appliances that are designed to run for long peroids of time cut back on the wattage like ev granny chargers are max 10a ovens and hobs sold with a 3 pin plug are 10 to 11A. appliances that run at or very close to 13a a good example is kettles that have a short duty cycle and are not used for hours at a time. the difference of a ev socket is the further testing required. if you look in the british standard document bs1363-2023 13a plugs, socket-oulets adapters and connection units page 59 section 28 cyclic load testing which is 230v at a current of 13.4A for 28 continuous cycles consisting of 8 hour on 1 hour off, 8 hour on and 7 hour off. they are then retested to make sure the pin tolerance has not changed and they are tested again for temerature rise has not changed. the price diffence is the testing you get that alot in specialised areas some marine and aviation prouducts are tested to a higher standard and are certified for there application. this is no diffrent.
@@rlfvac There are heaters that uses the full 13a constantly
@@StefanoFinocchiaro thats true dimpex do one i hadnr considered that.
Put a 32A P17 instead
here in France those EV sockets are popular as they can be installed by DIYers or electricians without the specific car charging qualification. They are more expensive sockets (either made by Legrand, Hager or Schneider electric) but there are differences with other outside sockets. The contacts are silver plated for better conductivity. They are probably bigger, too. And it has screw terminals, with some sockets accepting up to 6sq.mm wires. That size is not commonly used as 2,5 is enough, but depending on the length of the cable it can be necessary to use 6 square millimeters, even for A 16 A socket on a 20 amp breaker. So those sockets are suitable for that.
In the Legrand range, there is an obvious difference in quality, a standard socket will melt with repeated 13A charging, while an EV one stays fine over the years.
I recently went to a house who had been charging their car in an out side weather proof socket and the overheating was evident and had burned the live port completely. Also same customer had been doing the same in a hot tub, the inflatable type and burned that out. Standard sockets are not designed or tested for max load for many many hours.
The hot tub was in for days and the charger for 20 hours at a time. That Hager socket is designed and tested for the purpose.
Love hagers response ….basically confirms its just a blue case … would be interesting to see the difference between the normal single socket and that bet its f all - hager single socket in a blue enclosure 😂
I have also looked into this,the socket itself is a standard Hager sollysta range.The blue socket is no different from the grey Ip sockets other than stating on the front it’s suitable for Ev charging.(think this is mention in bs7671 that it has to be on the front)
You can download the conformity from Hager that lists the part numbers of the sockets that meet the British standards.
That's right. Toughleads UK also sell this Hager socket and have a copy of the declaration on their site.
Great work as always 👌🏻
Thank you 👍👍
That Indra has a design flaw. Lever connectors should be the other way eg down to close and lock. Fail to safe
That's interesting, Sergio. Last Friday I removed & reinstalled an indra for my customer as he was moving house. Charger was reinstalled at the new address, all working & connected back on my customers app. Got a call the next day, charger dead. Went back to site & found d the live had come out of the wago terminal. I kicked myself obviously but in my defence I pigged tailed the ends to take any strain off the terminals buy it still came out.
I would say the important thing is to put it on it's own circuit as it will constantly draw 10A. Personally I would have advised a 15A socket so they can potentially use a 3.5kW granny charger. That's whar I did originally.
About 50 years ago, we used to install 15A BS746 sockets for sterilizing sinks which drew 3kw constantly, 13A sockets tended to overheat due to the fuse heat generation.Ever wondered way stage lighting uses BS746 sockets as standard?
What sized cable you recommend use for ev 3pin charger? Will 2.5mm enough or is better 16mm cables with mcb 32A or higher?
Hagat data sheet describes the blue EV socket as “Double Pole Switched Socket with Enhanced Contact Protection”
A standard UK 3 pin socket is rated at 8 amps continuous power and 13 Amp peak. Many hybrid / EV granny chargers can be 13 Amps so I would fit a 32 Amp commando socket.
It may be obsolete and disconnected and is nothing to do with your install but the Memrex Senior switchgear at the mains is 80+ years old.
Good work keep it up putting a lot of work in 👍🏽
Thank you 👍
Fairly certain most sockets can only take 10A continuously where as this maybe can withstand up to 13, also Have noticed these make it clear that it is for ev charging so people dont get confused and plug something else in where it could be controlled ie on an off peak tarriff etc
Oh on another note if I where you I would feed back the design of the wago style connector should be rotated 180 so they need to be lifted up rather than flipped down to release. Heat expansion contraction vibration and gravity for a release mechanism like that personally think it should be as I described really.
Thank you for the feedback!!
The ones i have fitted (cant remember the make) have a dp type A rcd module next them and state they are rated as an EV connection point. If it shows thermal effects then it will be covered by warranty whereas a standard 13 amp single socket would not be.
I assume that a 13A sockets expressly installed for EV charging must use TT earthing, not TN-C-S or have PEN protection, as there is the same danger of the car chassis going "live" that there is with a 7kW charger in the event of a broken PEN.
You got it
Ive had same issue with ohme home pros. We change unit as like you say cant access internal wiring.
I'm no expert but I understood that recent-ish changes to EV charging regulations in the UK require an earth spike to be used as part of the installation to deal with the risk of supplier earth faults. I can see no reason why a 13a outside socket should be any different to a full external 7kw EV charger in relation to this risk. Do you install with earth rod ?
Yes we do
Cheap outside sockets tend to breakdown under UV light (sunlight) so it maybe more durable, also maybe slightly higher grade conductors and obviously tested. There seems to be a lot of unnecessary profit on some EV products
We have an ev but we do not need an expensive home charger so I had my sparky install a 16a blue commando socket with associated wiring back to the consumer board with it's own breaker. I bought a commercially available charge lead which can be set for a range between 6a and 16a charging.
Bonus is that as it has the blue commando plug that is used on campsites, we take the lead with us when we go camping. 👍
Just some advice for you, make sure he has installed a separate board for PEN fault detection, or earth spiked it, installed a separate circuit and provided type A RCD protection, if not you have a potentially dangerous installation
perhaps a locking tab over the lever connectors would prevent them from well doing that , would be a sensible feature just like the way the wago junction boxes work , that is obviously for the few who know how to use them 🤣😂
For most people (doing less than 8,000 miles pa) an EV rated 13a socket like the Hagar will be enough. Charge slowly 2 or 3 times a week and you will always be OK. Example - 8,000 miles pa / 365 days is 22 miles a day @ 4 miles per kw = just 5.5kw of charging per day. Of course some days you will do a load of miles - just make sure on those days you start full.
If you have 2 cars it may get tougher to live with the 13a but its still worth a go.
So why the heck isn’t a standard 13 amp socket outlet rated for 100% duty?
I don't know if it matters, but in my country, we say that full usage, for example 10 or 13 A, is the maximum for 2 or 4 hours (I can't remember the rule 100 percent). Could it be because the blue one is approved for 13 A for a longer period?
Interesting info, I’ll find out 👍
They are rated to handle the 13A load for extend duration of times, I fitted many and never had a issue with them, had many other standard sockets burn up
Good info thank you for sharing!
My head is hurting trying to work this out. We just got a PHEV with a 14kw battery. In the week weve had it , it's needed charging almost every day. I was going to get an outdoor socket like the Master plug but then thought maybe get a proper wall charger like the Ohme you showed. Which you didn't seem fond of and sounds unreliable. Based on one video I've seen though!
The cost is around ten times the difference.
Im not an electrician but I do have a family that I dont want to endanger unknowingly.
What are my realistic and safe options. Either or just one of them?
Thanks.
Good Afternoon, so basically in order to charge your car safely you need something installed called PEN Fault protection, the EV chargers have this built in normally. A normal double socket does not offer this protection, my advice is, get a decent home charger installed, I don’t like the Ohme personally.
I know it can be expensive but you probably forked out a lot for the new car so don’t scrimp on the thing that’s going to charge it safely
@@sotaelectricalThank you for the reply.
Which of those you've installed are you most impressed with?
@ the Simpson and Partners EV charger
@sotaelectrical Oosh that's a great looking piece of kit but would have to get an electrician in and trust them to do it properly.
Have also seen the Hypervolt Pro 3. That also looks nicer than the Ohme.
Will have a think. Thanks again, appreciate you responding.
From what I've seen I'm guessing it's better at dealing with the thermal output of long use with a EV charger. Have seen alot of people say that when using a 3 pin charger it can over heat standard sockets
Great info thanks for commenting 👍👍
The Hager socket is marked EV on the rear which is a requirement for sockets whose main use is for long term EV charging use. Problem is there is no PEN fault protection like you get with proper 7kw chargers. I wouldn't put it on a spur. Probably on its own 16a radial.
And install pen fault also!
Yes, but by the time you've installed something like a Matt:E to the 13a Hager socket, you're probably not a million miles away from the cost of a Hydra Cubus. I know the customer only has a PHEV but depending on their current consumer unit there's possibly only a hundred quid between them
@ I know, I’m with you
Great channel mate 👍
Thank you 👍👍
I thought the regs required a product being sold specifically for EV charging, PHEV or full EV has smart capability installed.
Did you have to TT the socket and seperate it from the pme
Arr the electricians nose you are lost without it. I am not joking, lost my smell with Covid still can’t smell much nearly 3 years on. Was working on a control panel that was blowing the control fuse and had to get the customer to do the smell test to find the problem. It’s crazy when you can’t smell a burnt out motor 😱
Smell is definitely a sense that us sparks use more than we think!
Did they offer you a fee to change their faulty unit? I've never ever heard of a manufacturer willing to do that.
I guess that socket will be the same reason why we fit 20a double pole switches to water heaters.
All the manufacturers pay to replace, you just have to ask 👍👍
13A plugs/sockets suck for EV granny chargers as the constant high load means the fuse in the plug gets hot and some poor quality plugs/sockets can end melting. I ended up changing the plug on my granny lead to a blue 16A connector and use an interlocked socket at home. I also keep an adapter for the times I actually have to use a 13A socket.
Good info thank you 🙏
That blue socket is a rip off! Charged plug in hybrids off a normal 13 amp outdoor socket with no trouble at all.
Why not get you a little magnet on a stick from Amazon to get the recessed screws out of those EV boxes?
tripping out .. sounds like fun
I thought that any installation that is to be used to charge an EV has to comply with the same regs as a proper EV charge point. Such as PEN protection and a different trip system. As this is actually sold as an EV socket why hasn't it got the PEN protection built in?
Doesn’t have to be built in but needs installing 👍
@@sotaelectrical That mandated protection would take the cost of installation to almost the same cost as a proper EVSE charge point. Perhaps a ground earth spike to create a TT situation would work instead of a PEN device but at a cost. And even then the extra work in the CU to change to reg trips is at a cost. TBH I'm amazed that the seller of that 13amp 'solution' is not advising on the mandated regs for EV charging.
It's not the connectors, they are fine.
It's a failure in the lacquer covering the soldered connection onto the PCB.
This is a very common fault with new companies.
In my previous company we came across a similar product from an Italian
Manufacturer.
They had not taken into account the moisture and oxidation and quite rapidly they had 10's of thousands blown panels usually on the back of the mains terminals.
Very interesting thank you for commenting!!
Looks like a normal outdoor IP66 single socket, not obvious electronics or anything to detect over heating due to prolonged usage. Hager didnt really sell it well :(
Most granny chargers have temperature sensors in the plug, to reduce charge current if temperature rises too much - reducing current isn't possible to do from the socket side.
Enjoying your videos. With the Indra charger I would have put a lock out kit on the cu for added safety just incase someone else came along and reenergised it by mistake (belt and braces), interested on your thoughts on this.
Well it physically won’t turn on anymore and their are no kids in the house, customers told to leave it alone and they are sensible people who don’t like electrics hence calling me out when their was a problem, let’s be realistic about these things
Thank you by the way 👍
Thanks for your help - what help? He was winging it!
Nothing wrong with being polite 👍👍
eFixx did a video about EV certified sockets, as required in BS7671. Yes the physical difference may well just be in the testing that's performed, but that's still a valid difference.
Good info thanks for sharing! 👍
@@sotaelectricalfrom what I gather it’s because it’s blue and has EV label
@@djgoode maybe so!
It should have a label / embossed mark on the front of the plate saying suitable for EV. Fully visible to anyone looking at it. I think that's to meet BS7288.
I fitted a few of the Masterplug Mode 2 13A sockets years ago for use with hybrids; the Masterplug one had an RCBO fitted to the left of the 13A BS1363 socket.
@@peterandrewwilson976 Yeah, nothing in the standards about it being in blue enclosure.
Only one faulty...... I've been out to as many faulty ones as I have new installs.... I've fitted good volume of the most popular chargers and.... Well guess the rest.... Always been good on the support though 👍
Im surprised the Hager socket has a switch this is always a weak point in sockets due to their small contact areas increading resistance and getting warm. The Mastetplug/Luceco ev socket omits the switch and also has a 16A type A rcbo on board, much better in my opinion. How much is the Hager one?
Around £30
Blue socket: It's called profiteering! 🤣
Shouldn't the socket be marked on the back "EV" if it has been upgraded, tested an passed for use for an EV.
I don't get why someone would hire an electrician to come out and install this instead of spending £300 more and getting a full fat 7.6kW charger. When you eventually go BEV, you'll end up paying more to have it replaced with an actual EVSE in the long run, vs if you just did it from day 1. Not to mention most hybrid cars now take 7.4kw or so and if friends or family visit, it might be useful for them to use.
Worth the £300 in my opinion. If you can't afford the extra £300 then I'd say buy an EV and IP rated extension lead and use a regular 13 amp socket from your house and limit the current to 10 amps or so. Then in a few months maybe re-consider an actual EVSE.
At the very least if you're going to overspend on a fancy plug, at least have them install an EV ultra cable to it for the future so you can swap It out easily.
Assume these are so house builders can stick one on the end of a buried 2.5mm and claim they've installed an "EV charger?
Looped suppy and a useless DNO taking months to sort it out.
I have a hybrid and chose the Hager socket as the cheaper alternative my reasoning being it takes roughly 4 hrs to fully charge my battery giving me a 35 mile range this I can do comfortably if need by using the cars app to set the time from midnight when I get my EV cheap rate to 4am and have a fully charged car no need for a 7.5 KW charger works for me and no I wont be upgrading to full EV hybrid gives me the best of both worlds.
@@David-sb7fdsame how me but I starting but thinking that will enough. Please are you using your house socket or you create new circuit just for this ev socket? If yes are using classic 2.5 or 16mm cable and what mcb 32A or more? Thank you for your answer.
Great video mate
Thanks mate 👍
@@sotaelectrical I've seen that on one indra before but typically they've been ok in that regard
@@southcoastev I got no issues with them, very helpful
The copper is increased in size on a competitor’s model. The lad on the other side of the call was not 100% on the question so blagged his response to get you off the call. The product though should have gone through additional testing and be appropriately marked up to state it is okay for ev charging.
The socket should be individually fed though and not supplied off any other circuit Atype Rcd / afdd. Going by the latest ev guidance notes
Bro you should have disconnected the cables out of the rcbo, customers say they’ll not turn it on but it’s not worth the risk.
It literally won’t turn back on mate don’t worry
Fair point I’m not having a go love the channel
@@scott4shell that’s cool mate I didn’t take it a bad way, thank you for watching, really appreciate the support 👍👍
You skipped over the part when you asked if you were going to get paid under the EV charger manufacturer warranty were you compensated. The Hager blue socket item you called about it seemed to me that the assistant basically know any information about it or in fact knew they existed.
Yes I get paid mate 👍
@@sotaelectrical Well done normally the spark has to do the change foc.
What about PEN FAULT protection??????
It’s there mate
Hager also forces us this kind of nonsense on France by using normative requirements.
People get by by using blue P17 sockets (16 or 32A) which are loads better and more robust than dedicated products. Just install it at height to avoid children hands, as it has no shutters.
Whatever the socket, add a chargehanger to your setup 😃
Master plug do a EV 13 Amp heavy duty socket for Hybrids
I thought they recommend an unswitched 13amp socket for ev charging the switch being the weakest point??????
This is the issue with EV’s or Solar equiptment failure so poor sparky back to the job when there is not a lot of profit in the job in the first place and that's not allowing for membership fees and insurance
A little tip with the Indra covers, undo the screws then put some insulation tape over the holes.stops them falling out.
Superb tip sir!! Thank you!! 👍👍
Best tip for indra.... Don't install them👍
Hager's technical support absolutely traumatised after the Dave Savery AFDD fiasco 😂
I wondered about this special socket thing so being the exciting chap that I am, I read the British Standard (can get it at work for free):
BS1363-2 gives a different test spec for sockets intended to charge EVs - and says they should be labelled with "BS1363-2 /EV" on the back. The colour is just manufacturer preference.
All sockets undergo a test for breaking capacity (of switch and by disconnection) and a test normal operation wear life (ie voltage drop on switch and receptacle contacts after x cycles) - this is done at 1.25x the rated current (ie 1.25x13). For normal sockets the load is substantially non-inductive but for “EV” sockets the load must have a power factor of 0.6.
"EV" sockets have an additional cyclic load test: 28 cycles of 8h on, 1h off, 8h on, 7h off - all at 13A. There isn’t an equivalent for non /EV
All sockets (regardless of /EV) must complete a temperature rise test:
Max 52K rise during a minimum continuous period of 4 h or longer until temperature stability is reached with a maximum duration of 8 h, stability being taken as less than 1K rise within 1 h. This test is performed at 14 (fourteen) amps load for a single outlet socket or 14+6A for a two outlet socket. Power factor is not specified for this test.
Great info!
Hi. There are a numbers of EV 13amp sockets on the market and they are built over rated …. ie… Hagar is built to 20amp ( internal components) larger contacts larger springs….. and high heat rated plastics…. So just over engineered…. Or look at it another way… your kitchen toaster works fine on normal socket … but leave it on for 8 hrs and it will burn out the internals of socket but since a toaster only runs for 3 minutes at a time there is no problem …. Run it for 8hrs and it will fail
Great info thanks!!
These boxes will be the new target!!
I bought those lever connections anout a year go to try them. Absolute crap, and expensive.
Hi mate, I've got ohme pro and fitter from ohme replaced it as one was faulty and done it in pooing fat rain, the inside of box was wet, he didn't give a crap, funny water tracked up the cable and condensated on screen. Ohme failed to come back to me. Brackets are shit. App is OK, could be do much better.
Hager Customer service......uhhh dont know, have you tried our afdd's?
🤣
Those indra terminals are rubbish, just recently started fitting them and they seem to pop out easily, im scared ill have a callback with this issue now
I’ve not had this issue before, I’m sure your be fine
Iv replaced loads burnt out. The levers give up top feed to car and bottom feed in. Had the pcb bored burn out at the bottom around the built in rcd and around the built in ct just under the top block. Iv had both 6mm and 4mm feeds burn out. Indra very good at replacing and know and u derstand the fault. The sad thing is the new unit they have has the same Internals but a diffrant out look. I find they last about 12 months and shorter with a tesla.
@@blakehogburn1517 great info mate 👍👍
.....i second that👍
Not to mention all the connectivity issues 😢
The Hager technical guy didn’t have a clue what he talking about and tried to feed a load of 💩
That guy u phoned had no clue at all and I bet there just trying to rip people off
The charger is in the car, the home box just tells your car how fast it can charge.
Yes we know, just the terminology used 👍👍👍
The charger tthatt made the popping sounds is awful. Lots of exposed PCB. My own charger has an EVSE module, a contactor module and a main switch/RCD module. Everyhing is inside a module and it works just fine. The EVSE module in my charger is less than £100 and tthe restt of ittis prety much bog standard. Regarding granny chargers and 13 amp sockets I had an overheating problem charging at 3kw so I now charge at 2kw with no problems.
Hanger branded bet nearly cost as much as a charger 😂
meh, barely just over a good quality outdoor socket
The person at customer support has to deal with a whole host of products and enquiries, that person did not design the product, he's not the most knowledgeable person to respond to your questions.
I'm not saying that this socket is different, but I would assume it was beefed up to take 13A for many hours continuously, and the regular socket isn't designed to take full power for hours and hours.
Does everyone that calls Hager technical now leave their name as David Savery? 😂
🤣🤣 definitely
I sense another Davo Savo Hager video coming soon lol
🤣
if you have an hybrid you don't need a charger, you have a plugin "hybrid" which is an EV I blame no one other than the manufacturers for that mistake HEV PHEV FHEV EV BEV it's like they make a new one every 6 months
A plug in hybrid is a pretty poor excuse of an EV though.
Typical Hager clueless customer care.
It's blue that what your paying for?
Anythink !?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!!?!
Talk like a grown up human !!!! 😂 the word is ANYTHING !!!!!
Grow up
Hager word salad. Errr EV..... er regulations.
Technical support staffed by someone with zero knowledge who didn’t have a scripted answer to your question.
I know
Can you fix the video by removing the music and upload it again so we can watch it?
At the moment the video is unwatchable.
The loud music adds no value and is not relevant to the content. Think about people with hearing problems, how would that music make any difference to the content?
I know you are just trying to copy the style of others, but it doesn't work.
Your the only one to complain, sorry it doesn’t suite you but thanks for watching anyway
Grow up ffs
Bye Steven