I hate it when people say "it's a fictional character, no big deal" argument as a way to justify bastardizing legacy characters that we've grown to love. Like what they did to Luke Skywalker in TLJ, Harry Potter in Cursed Child, etc etc.
fictional characters/individuals have been interpreted and re-interpreted for as long as stories have been told and when different cultures come into contact with those stories.
If it's no big deal, they wouldn't be going after them as hard as they have been. Those making these shows and movies know how important they are, but are hiding behind this phrase so the normies won't think twice about it.
Fear not. This too will pass. 70 years later people still watch and rave about the Maltese Falcon while hundreds of other movies are forgotten. 70 years from now the original trilogy will still be watched and enjoyed while the rest of "Star Wars" will be a footnote at best.
@@gloriathomas3245You're referring to the way information traveled in a time when you couldn't go on the internet and find the source material. This doesn't really apply in the information age.
It's a conversation stopper, not a meaningful attempt to engage. It is designed to dismiss & minimalist a perspective they don't understand - in other words, a failure of empathy.
Or when Babydoll broke down after looking at that funhouse mirror that showed how she would look as an adult and Batman comforts her. A man robed of his childhood and a woman who can't escape it. Also FunFact: Ace from Batman Beyond is named after that Ace.
@@Deuteromis yeah, I knew about Ace the dog. That was sweet. And yes, there's plenty of tear jerking moments. I'll never feel bad for crying like a little baby. It just happens.
Fictional characters don't matter? - Only to real people that lack any skill to write fictional characters, but want to make money of them. If that kind of thinking is widely spread among creatives, it is no surprise that the writing has gone downhill.
If it matters to you the way real people matter to you then you probably are too attached to fictional characters and it makes sense to care about you caring too much because you are real. That having been established, it’s not the case that fictional characters don’t matter at all.
@@matityaloran9157I disagree, if you went on Facebook and made "friends" with someone, then find out that person was fake or a stolen identity, the difference between the people effected by that identity theft and those effected by a fictional character is 1... Now sure the real life person likely got harmed more but you likely both got robbed.
I say the same thing to people who change characters then claim I shouldn't care about the change. well then why was it changed in the first place? It's gaslighting and an appeal to triviality to mask that they do care and simply like the change.
As a story teller your #1 goal is for your audience to feel something about your characters, if you're making tge argument that fictional characters don't matter you've lost the plot, literally
The people who do this to characters and stories that they don't care about, are just like school bullies who steal the toys from kids on the playground. They start mashing two guys' faces together, mockingly make them say and do things that the characters would never say or do, usually with mocking voices as well. I'd like to think it's not malicious, like this, but they've done this far too many times. It's not "fan fiction", like these people have always loved the characters and stories that they're now continuing... what they do to the characters is evil. It's "hate fiction", and I believe they know what they're doing.
Characters become internalized, they become part of us. The betrayal we feel when a friend or partner suddenly changes or turns out to be different than what we thought is the same betrayal we feel when a fictional character is drastically changed.
Interesting fact, the word canon used for fictional stories (the word canon itself meaning truth from the bible) was first used when Sherlock Holmes was written later with a completely different type of character. Even back then people got upset about such things and demanded the work stick to canon.
True. I breaks my heart to see a character I love, not only be written badly, but being so misunderstood that future readers and writers alike think that the worst written version of that character is how they should always be portrayed.
I honestly don't understand how people can brush off the assassinations of beloved characters by the higher-ups who never cared about the franchises they're destroying, by asking the fans why they care so much and to stop making "such a big deal" out of it, when they would be feeling the same way if it was done to their favorite characters--or more personally, if it was characters that they created themselves that were being destroyed. Unless you, for some reason, don't give a crap about your own product that you've slaved away for years and decades... which I also don't understand. I've been writing for years, been drawing my characters for years, and I have many characters I've created over the years that I've come to love as heroes and as villains. I've had my main character since 2008, my preteen years, and as such he is my most personal out of the rest of them and I've been creating and developing his story since December 2013. So when I hear fans' reactions to characters being unnecessarily changed for nothing but the higher-up's own ulterior political goals, when I hear fans getting understandably angry at characters' personalities being defiled by the studio's own sense of entitlement and political motives, and/or replaced by inferior gender-swapped and/or race-swapped Mary-Sue clones without all the relatability and the flaws that made the characters they're replacing feel real, all while the studios take a huge dump all over the original franchises and lie about them as if they were always problematic from the start (looking at you, Amazon and the Rings of Prime, and looking at you, Disney and your trash-heap "live-action" remakes), and finally tell their own audience to "take it or shut the eff up", "it's just a movie", "they're just characters! they're not real", "it wasn't made for you", or "it's for a new generation now", I get pissed. Because I think to myself how much effort went into making those franchises and those movies and comics, the amount of years the creators slaved away, how much blood, sweat, and tears went into earning the popularity they got. And if those were my characters being taken from me and desecrated to appeal to some made-up political "modern audience" and to appeal to the crapfest that is the politics of today, I would be very pissed off and would not accept it. So many people grew up with Disney, with Star Wars, with Star Trek, with Lord of the Rings, and so many people got inspired to create their own IPs because of them. Fictional characters help other people look outside the box and relate to others that don't look like them, think differently, or live different lives from them. So don't let people tell you to stop critiquing these studios and their destruction of the original franchises, just because the characters aren't real. Keep up the good work, and great video!
The "new generation" thing makes me angry, and I always answer that even new generations deserve GOOD WRITING and well made characters. (By the way: drawing and writing weird author here, me too! 🙂)
@@chandlerburse if the new generation is crappy, because they have been raised on vapid social media bullshit, fake political ideals, and a shit ton of drugs, doesn't that just prove their point? just because a shit person deserved better doesn't mean they're not a shit person, in fact, the mistreatment or denial of critical things plays a large role in them being... shit. where past generations had epics, and stories, deep concepts, and discussions of trauma, historic universal feelings like abandonment, hopelessness, and love... the new generation has one dimensional mary sues, and... tik-tok. They will learn nothing, and feel nothing.
Fictional characters are not real, but when you follow a franchise for long enough, you will grow emotional attachments to them as if they were real, so it doesn’t matter when a franchise destroys them
“Since it is so likely that (children) will meet cruel enemies, let them at least have heard of brave knights and heroic courage. Otherwise you are making their destiny not brighter but darker.” ― C.S. Lewis anybody that thinks it doesnt matter is truly evil in my eyes
@@matityaloran9157 the people who make it their goal or mission to tear down or belittle these characters do so because they hate the morality the characters represent its fine to not understand peoples attachment to fictional characters its a complete other thing to gleefully supplant what these characters represent to spite your percieved political/social enemies
@@matityaloran9157 i knew a guy who watched star wars with his father in theaters when he was a kid years later his father was old and dying and he asked his son to put on star wars so they could watch it together one last time anyone who would destroy that is truly evil in my eyes
In my first year of Uni I had an Anthropology course. We studied myths, early civilisations in relation to fairy tales and myths etc. One thing that stuck with me was that, according to research, early orally told fairy tales would elicit the same reactions we see today in the audience if they weren't told right. Even worse, because then the story teller could face physical repercussions even. The hero's journey was supposed to go a certain way, every one being very familiar with the trope and the characters themselves weren't that well contoured- just the bare bones: the hero who is young and brave, the heroine who is the most beautiful there is etc. Just a simple phrase to kinda give the audience a sense of the archetype they embodied. The story itself was and remains a ritual. That blew my mind. I even wanted to do my PhD on that topic but ultimately let that dream go. My point is, it seems people who are in charge of telling stories should be educated in that area to really understand how the subconscious works. My guess is that they are trying to influence that with modern ideas but, in a sense, they miss that the bones of a story and characters should remain the same. I recently watched George Lucas talking about myths and how he wanted to offer that to a new generation and I also just found out he is an Anthropology major himself. That makes so much sense. He understands the human need for myths, for heroes and catharsis. Edit: I think Jung explains this best when talking about the collective subconscious. I strongly encourage anyone to check out his ideas.
27:19 “it’s not my car anymore”. That hits so hard and is the perfect example of when your favorite franchise has been altered and ruined to the point you don’t care anymore
The people who make fun of others for getting attached to fictional characters are often the same people who scream and throw things if a football player on tv doesn’t throw the football very well.
They're not. They're the same kind of people who will make fun of the people who dare to get attached enough to their favorite NFL team to cheer them on or wear their favorite players' jerseys to games. It's about having an angle to feel superior to someone else rather than empathizing.
At least Football players are real. So it makes more sense why people argue over certain players. Fictional characters are not. Yes, we love them and we grew up with them, but at the end of the day, we dont benefit anything out of them, just joy really.
Ironically, blockbuster franchises have all become victims of a political activist Annie Wilkes, who causes those involve to apologize and cave in to the downgrade degeneracy culture being pushed in by a certain group. It's been a decade already of this roundabout argument and all it accomplishes is apathy.
I'm not really in any fandoms, but I'm obsessed with my own characters and writing (judge me if you want idc), and one thing that I saw once that still kinda pisses me off to think about was someone saying something like, "Stop saying your character did this or your character did that and surprised you. They're not real, and you're not quirky for acting like they are." It was just this same attitude but repackaged as "writing advice" and it's never made sense to me. Let people feel things. Let them be excited about characters or proud of their work. The type of people that brush this off are clearly not artists and belong in a boardroom looking at graphs and pie charts.
Characters can be fun and help us strive to be better people. They can also serve ad warnings or what not to do and what not to be like. Are they real? No, they aren't. But people saying they don't matter at all are incredibly misguided.
It’s a critique to which I’m somewhat sympathetic when it comes from people who are sincere about it but the kinds of people who consider it extremely important to alter significant aspects of established characters aren’t the kinds of people that I take seriously when they offer this critique
@@ChildOfTheFlowerEverything with Go Set a Watchman is kind of funny and kind of sad. From “whoa! An unreleased sequel to Kill an Mockingbird” to “oh. So that’s why it was never released.”
Sidenote: There is quite the growing hatred and resentment building for Batman. Not from the general audiences, but from a subset of fans (and a lot of the creators). There is a lot of talk about him being a fascist and a corrupt billionaire, and so on and so forth. I see more and more efforts to tear him down. Its sad.
I’m am genuinely sick and tired of people online calling superheroes “defenders of the status quo.” Like, no. They’re literally taking matters into their own hands to stop criminals and supervillains. If every story was “ro ro fight the power” shit would get boring and repetitive. Fiction doesn’t have to stick to one mold.
We spend so much time with these characters that they become like friends to us, so when they are done dirty, it really hurts us, and when they gets wins, it's a massive win for us!
I find it very serendipitous that you posted this video on the anniversary of the "death" of one of my favorite series (Guillermo del Toro's Tales of Arcadia series on Netflix--the series finale premiered on July 21st, 2021 and was one of the biggest, most unexpected "screw you"s to the audience I've ever seen). Sometimes I feel a little embarrassed that a show suddenly turning horrible right at the very end made me mourn as much as it has--especially since it had its' fair share of "goofy kids' cartoon (derogatory)" moments. But it helped a lot hearing you explain some of the psychology behind my attachment to those characters.
It's a sign of good writing, I have just started reading Gunslinger girl, and a lot of the cast are broken in some way or another that it's possible to emphasize with. From Henrietta to Pinoiocco, you are feeling something for someone from mild disgust to pity to sharing their joy. That's good writing, for me.
the incredible hulk is the character i am most attached too, seeing him being ruined from avengers 2012 all the way to the present hurt alot, he is not some butt of the joke, he is a complex serious character that goes through so much, he saw his mom die, he had a abusive father, he has many personality's as the hulk, and with all that, he still goes out of his way to help people (as bruce or hulk). seeing him now as the "oh ha ha, look he hit thor in a funny way." or seeing him wimp out with thanos. it's just character assassination.
If I was a college professor, I would give you an A+. You really touched the topic in such a deep and beautiful way. Your video essay capitalizes on how we as individuals feel, or hold on to such wonderfully made fictional characters.❤
@@violetlavi2207 Most of the authors beyond Zahn did not do her very well, and dropped the ball on a lot her dynamic with Luke. Yes I will never forgive Traviss for killing her off but also for her Jedi dislike as well. We had pushed so hard to get them married and then NJO gives her a disease and they don't even get a child till she's in her 40's either. We wanted Legacy Skywalkers for the future when Luke and Mara were younger.
The story of Zuko and Iroh is the best retelling of the Prodigal Son that I've ever seen in my life. As a Christian it legit led me to understand God and that parable in a much different and deeper way than I had before. And I agree, these characters and stories matter to us because of what they represent to us, what they mean in the context of our own lives.
People probably don't think about modern media as great art but that's exactly what the best examples are and great art should matter. I know these things are owned by giant corporations but we're well past the point of admitting what's being done is cultural vandalism.
Yeah, why is it when something is actually influential and recognizable in the modern day people decide it must be a fluke and that it isn't that important, but then try to push some shit no one's ever cared about as a bestselling story that will make history because it has "important topics".
I wasn't angry at Rian Johnson until I saw his response to critics of the Last Jedi on Twitter. It just looked like he enjoyed the suffering of fans. I just checked out.
Luke Skywalker is my all time favorite character in Star Wars Legends, and I wish that Disney made a film of him and his wife Mara Jade rebuilding the Jedi Order together instead of making Ma-Rey-Sue Palpatine rebuild the Jedi Order the exact same it was in the Prequels.
I got even more angry at him after his response to the fan backlash of Arya stealing Jon Snow's arc and anticlimactically killing the Night King for him while he was too busy screaming at a dragon in Game of Thrones Season 8, Episode 3: "Damn. I had a really cool Night King theory!" It really came off as him taking a swing at us and the fans who were upset at Snoke's similarly dissatisfying death in TLJ.
@graylykan2739 He has a bad relationship with fans. I mean, was he ever a fan to begin with? People pay to see your work and you have a bizarre taste to mock them?
People use that “It’s just make believe!” bs when they have nothing substantive to add to the conversation, but they still want to dismiss someone else’s critique. They’re either liars, trolls, or sociopaths. Caring about something that is incapable of returning that affection is one of the highest forms of empathy.
This was an awesome video! I hate when people do that. The whole point is to be invested in these fictional characters. It's a passion and should never be shamed for. I get it all the time about the assassination Harley's character. You said it perfectly: " *And sometimes it's the people who get most upset with how characters are being used are the people who know them the best. That's why they notice the details of when they change. And to be upset about that is just them being passionate, not wanting to lose something that's good* " 💯👏
Eustass Kid is a mass murder that crucifies people, and I feel more empathy towards him than any current animated or live action remake film from Disney.
my favourite character is The Joker and to see him getting trained by some bloke named Captio??? in the comics recently.... man you gotta be kidding me 😂😂😂
The characters may not be real, but our emotions are. When Maleficent has her wings cut off by someone she trusted and reacts the way she does is a brutal gut punch every time I see it.
7:50,. There's a lot of great moments throughout the trilogy, but this particularly scene has always stuck with me and solidifies Sam as one of the best supporting characters in any piece of fiction! At least in my opinion, anyways. Astin's delivery of this line is so powerful, accompanied with the "Into the West" tempo blasted to a soaring climax when Sam hauls Frodo over his shoulders and proceeds to carry him to Mt. Doom. Absolute chills! I'm glad I'm not the only one to have been touched by this scene!
Often, the same people giving you static for caring about fictional characters are the ones who don't even care about other real people. They dismiss your empathy because they lack their own, and the way they dismiss your feelings about something is a clear demonstration of their inability or unwillingness to empathize with others.
You are right Jester. I can tell you I remember Hasbro getting a lot of heat after death of Optimus Prime in the 1984 movie. Fictional yes, but to a lot of young kids..he was pseudo father figure that showed how to be a good leader and person. Sacrifice, honor, compassion, wisdom, charisma, strong but gentle. Peter Cullen's voice did this along with the story. So yes, fictional characters can have a profound impact on people. I can say I went with my father to see this movie and even he was appalled seeing the reaction by myself and all the children devastated by the scene
many moons ago,there was a scene in The English Patient film that really moved me to tears... traveling through the desert after a plane crash,the character of the Count carried his injured beloved for miles to the safety of a cave and afterwards went for aid/help,only to return to find out she had passed... 😢
The one thing I've learned in my life is that if someone is upset, it should be taken seriously. They have a reason. They always have a reason. It may seem like they're freaking out over something silly, but you are not them. You do not have insight into what they are feeling. What isn't important to one person, is super important to someone else.
Because the ideas are real, they are analogies to things that people relate to in real life, they give people something to compare what they know with something else. By changing a characters appearance or personality you're telling the reader/watcher "this idea you believe in is wrong" or "what i want is more important than what is"
Yeah, I also always see these kind of behaviours as an insult to whoever previously worked on the project. If their vision is scrapped you are disrespecting real people who made a good effort to create something with meaning for others. If an author is dead, it feels worse. Almost like someone tried to double kill them by stamping out their legacy.
@iceprism367 yeah... it's like who are they, to come in after the fact and just say "this is the official version, and I made it!" I think stories are owned by those who read them, not by those who buy the copyrights for them.
People care so much about characters, and when they are changed, it can invite the fans to disagree with the change. One side of the fan base may like this change which is perfectly legitimate, but it is also perfectly legitimate if there is a side of the fan base that doesn’t agree with the change to the character.
Peter B Parker: “Hey, we’ve all been there before. Y’know for me,… for me, it was my Uncle Ben. Spider-Man Noir: “And for me, it was my Uncle Benjamin.” Peni Parker: “For me, it was father.” Gwen Stacy: “For me, it was my best friend.” Spider Ham: “Miles, the hardest part of this job is… you can’t always save everyone.”
*Hollywood board room meeting* "Okay, so you know that movie The Crow about a man riddled with pain and grief seeking vengeance for the life that was taken from him so he and his deceased fiance may finally be at peace?" "Yeah." "Let's just make a dumb edgy John Wick style action film remake starring the guy who played Pennywise out of it." Yeah. People who think characters don't matter emotionally are people like this. This is why everything sucks now.
Stories and characters absolutely *do* matter. Why else do certain stories still stick with us after decades or hundreds, if not thousands of years? Because of the emotional impacts they have on us, the universal themes they touch on, the characters that feel as relatable now as they did then. Stories make us human, they're an undeniable part of who we are.
The same people who dismiss fictional characters are the same kind of people who will then go on to sink a couple thousand dollars into their FANTASY football league. If you’re looking for more scholarly looking at the importance of imaginary characters, see CS Lewis’ essays in defense of the Fairy Tale like “Sometimes Fairy Stories May Say Best What’s to be Said” or Tolkien’s essay “On Fairy-Stories”. Because back after the First World War there was a massive shift away from fantasy. They said kids needed _real_ stories. (If you look at a list of Newberry books from the 40s, you’ll see that a LOT of them were biographies.)
I feel this way about Jinx from Teen Titans, I was invested in the character and her potential relationship with Cyborg. Then Season 5 happened and i felt kinda betrayed by how she was written. It felt mean spirited towards the Hive Five too.
I would've preferred Jinx marrying and having a family with Cyborg; Kid Flash marrying and having a family with Artemis, and Jason Todd marrying and having a family with Slade Wilson's daughter.
What troubles me most is that this current generation is gleefully tearing down everything that came before, but they don't have anything to offer in exchange. Once they have succeeded in tearing down everything anyone loves, what then?
This is a very very great video. That said. I can relate to Spiderman quirks and social anxieties. I went through trauma and am an isolationist like batman with brooding and do it myself attitude. I can relate to obi wan as well until Disney got a hold of him
Imagine your dog died, or your house burned down. All your sentimental belongings are destroyed... And someone walks up to you and says "What's the big deal? Just move on."
All I could think about while you were talking was Arthur Morgan. I’ve been sad characters have died before but Arthur hit like I lost a family member. I get sad when I think about him still, I mean it’s really like you lost someone. It’s so odd.
I got a long list of characters I can relate to. Me and my sister relate to Peter Parker (Spider-Man) because he goes through alot and takes alot of responsibilities.
I know the difference between fiction and reality & I also understand that fictional characters are precious (Especially the characters we grew up with) too. I also know that I should not hurt people who played characters I don't like. I respect those who like characters I don't like & I respect and understand you too, JesterBell.
Sometimes people do something that is completely out of character for them. As much as people are logical and consistent people can be emotional or irrational and do something unpredictable. It can be unpleasant to experience someone doing something out of character, but it is still realistic for that to happen.
We need heroes, we need to admire and be inspired by ideal characters that may not exist in real life but can make us feel better and perhaps even inspire us to be better than what we are
I died when I was 2. They say I was dead for 2 minutes. I can't understand the way people can draw these stark, solid conclusions that make so very much sense. Fiction can help you to feel not alone, oh, yeah, it does that, I thought it just made me feel better about being alive. I didn't really consider why. I do not see the world the way most people do. I know I'm not alone. "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." I heard that at 7 and went, "yup, he knows". Again, didn't consider why. Doesn't matter. Feels good. I think it's why I like Doctor Aphra in the Star Wars comics. Sure, she's a dumpster fire, but she's surviving any way she can. That feels good. She's a bad person, but her story feels good.
Because these characters are a part of our childhoods, and taught us lessons about life similar to our parents. Yes their "not real" but the basis of their ideologies, and world views are real at least to me.
Humans learn by experience. Some things we cant experience ourselves but we can by others example: positive or negative. Thats why good art is so important. We can get context, a framework and even proxy experience through art.
A friend of mine was upset about the revelation behind Sol from The Acolyte. He said the charge was character assassination. I told him, "It's the seventh episode of a brand new show with brand new characters. You cannot claim 'character assassination' his initial story hasn't even finished yet."
I mean…when a character has been shown to be incredibly gentle, empathetic, and the Jedi ideal, and like that even as a youngster, his sudden turn into “child murderer/kidnapper” does in fact count as character assassination
@@violetlavi2207 By that logic, The Prospector, Lotso Hugging Bear, and Prince Hans were character assassinated in Toy Story 2, Toy Story 3, and Frozen respectively. The Acolyte set up from the beginning that Mae was targeting specific Jedi for revenge. One of those Jedi was so riddled with guilt that he sent himself into a decade long exile and then willingly drank lethal poison. Therefore, Sol had to be involved with something terrible. I will acknowledge that Sol's reveal was confusing, frustrating, and disappointing. However, it wasn't character assassination. Furthermore, one of the goals of the program was to present the Jedi as an imperfect organization. Behind the Jedi's benevolence and generosity there are people that make mistakes, have their own agendas, and can succumb to temptations. They say, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." The Acolyte highlights the first mile of that road. I am NOT saying that The Acolyte was a good show. Instead I am saying there is a difference between character assassination and getting reveals that people didn't like.
@@HighHeelKnight ...well those were twist villains, while Sol is not. He's a character established to be kind and well-meaning for his entire life, who for some reason decided to kill out of nowhere once, steal a child, and lie about it. Lotso and Prospector are shown to have qualities that could be twisted into villainy (Lotso is committed to order at all costs (see his conversation with Woody about moving rooms), Prospector wants to go to the museum and be preserved and scorns being loved by a child) but Sol? Not so much. The only thing you could MAYBE use as proof is that he cared about Osha very much, but...that's weak as evidence. So...yeah I'd call it character assassination. And mind you, showing the Jedi as a flawed organization is all well and good (when it doesn't veer into "they deserved to be massacred"), but twisting a character who has been nothing but kind into a lying murderer is not the way to do it.
@@violetlavi2207 Well, if can have twist villains then we can have twist heroes. Again, it is not character assassination when it is the first and only story about the character. If Sol had been around several seasons or several movies or several books, and then he's revealed to be a padawan obsessed creep that killed a parent and covered up the extinction of a society, THEN such reveals could be argued as character assassination. That's not Sol though. These eight episodes is Sol's one and only story that was created by one and only showrunner. Lesyle Headland make it abundantly clear from the get-go that Sol and his Jedi companions were involved in something terrible. Then she revealed what the terrible thing was. That's not character assassination. That is delivering what was on the marquee. Was the writing bad? Yes. Was Sol's reveal character assassination? No. It was the exact opposite. By the way, did you ever consider that the Brendok tragedy was how Sol grew to be a kind and well-meaning Jedi Master? As much as I hate The Last Jedi, the movie made one good point: "The greatest teacher failure is." Let's hope that Lesyle Headland was been taught a lot, if she gets a second season.
Characters may not be real, but neither is you favorite toy, car, or house is actually alive. Whatever it is, we get attached to it, and when we see it broken and gotten rid of, that's just devastating.
As a former homeschooler myself, such representation Is so hard to come by, let alone representation I find the most pleasing, recent example of what I actually I’m talking about comes from the recent incarnations of Power Rangers: Dino/Cosmic Fury with the blue Ranger as a character they introduced that was not public educated, but they didn’t show him going through any of the same, not even similar struggles that I went through, all that just fell by the wayside in favor of first female green ranger having a girlfriend, that alienation that I was made to feel whether intentional or not seemed to have turned up to somewhere off the charts when said character was brainwashed by the villain for the (censored because spoilers), but I wanted instead was the character infiltrating the villains ranks to gain Intel for his team because it would have felt like less of a demonization.
I kinda feel the same way with characters such as Touka from Tokyo Ghoul, Denji from Chainsaw Man, Kite Man x Golden Glider, Gambit, Spiderman, Robin, Kratos from God of War, Tidus and Noctis from Final Fantasy Shionne from Tales of Arise, Velvet from Tales of Arise, Akira from Zom 100 go through a lot of traumatic and emotionally damaging stuff.
Fictional characters are meant to be a reflection of ourselves and our cherished societal values. Traditional fictional heroes around the world, regardless of background, have commonly sought to embody heroism, true love, bravery, discipline, strength, and honesty. Taking that and destroying it and/or bastardizing it is a form or cultural and societal breakdown… vandalism at the representation of our values. Only a fool or an enemy would demolish such a thing.
X: "This character / series / worldbulding was destroyed. Y: "No I disagree / it's not that bad." X: "I can elaborate on the how and why: [longness here]" Y: "Ugh, why do you care??" The factor of wanting to win with an opinion no matter what is all too present. Oftentimes "caring about fiction too much" isn't criticized reasonably, but as an easy means to point out the flaws on others and get points in a discussion. It's petty, some criticism make people feel bad and they react badly about it by wanting those critics to lose in society by whatever means. In a certain postcast I watch, all the people who act like this are either kinda dumb & with low standards in their understanding of media, or the same on top of hypocrites, as they care too much about fiction themselves with enough time in between their accusations.
I hate this argument that we shouldn't take a deal because theyre not real. Dude why shouldn't I cry if my favourite character of all time wich is Oh Yoon hee is suffering her entire life and is having a brutal and emotional death?! We cry because we matter, ae matter because we like thess character and we like these characters because they are good written!
I've been recommding your channel to Star Wars Theory, Critical Drinker...you have great assessments. Intelligent, introspective and articulated nicely. Love your videos and agree with you.
I think there's a difference between the more static (and once honored) lore of SW and LOTR, and the much more fluid universes like Marvel and DC where experimentation is a huge part of the history.
Yes. The catharsis. The opportunity to process and go through things in a safe way. Myths, stories, histories, narrative are so important for us to develop and understand.
I can relate to this video a little too much! I became really attached to the Twelfth Doctor and it really upsets me every time his actor Peter Capaldi says he won’t come back to reprise his role. It also didn’t help that I found out on Christmas Eve 2020 during the height of the pandemic . I understand his reasoning (or at least I try to) and he doesn’t owe fans anything but it still hurts. I still hope he changes his mind one day 🥺I also get really frustrated and defensive when people say that the Twelfth Doctor and Clara aren’t a romance when Capaldi himself called them “ a truly romantic relationship”.
Thanks for this video. It actually worries me when people sincerely don't understand why fictional characters do matter, and stories are part of what makes us human.
These stories matter to a lot of people. I am one of those people, but I always connected to [Star Wars] this story of good versus evil for so long because it is a TIMELESS story. Since I was 4 (I didn't fully understand at the time, but good v. Evil is something I could grasp)
Im a grown man... but whenever i see that one scene in Spider-Man Homecoming where peter has to cheer himself on in order to get the collapsed roof off of him so he can save his friends and win. "come on Spider-Man... come on Spider-Man..." gets me every time.
This was great to get some insight on things. Say, I know with Star Wars I didn't quite know how to articulate how it had changed and not felt like the old Star Wars. After watching so many people describe it I know feel I can better describe it myself.
I grew up with Halo and the Master chief. Even if he is fictional, he taught me to "finish the fight". 3 Words that give me strength even in hard times. He is a symbol for me, a symbol of strength and integrity. A man that (not in his childhood) willingly protects, even if it means to sacrifice himself. Things that i deeply praise and which are part of my value system. Now seeing this Man getting devolved into a pre-pubercent sex driven emotionally unstable failed project by Paramount was a personal attack. They went for greed and attacked which i hold sacred. Fuck big companies attacking and using art for their financial or ideological benefit.
If fictional characters didn't emotionally connect to the reader, I wouldn't want to be a writer. If it's nothing but simple "entertainment" then whatever, let people play Candy Crush. But we know it's more than that.
You did a great job with this video. I really loved all of the examples and personal anecdotes you used to clearly express your points. Glad you went through with making it, even though it made you uncomfortable.
Same. I had this feeling of "wow... so this is how the main saga will end, huh?" I knew it was doomed and the next movie wasn't going to fix things. Both the new characters and the old characters had been turned into these super unlikable weird versions of themselves and the story just felt so mean-spirited. This was Disney's only chance to wrap up the story with the og actors and pass the torch to the next generation, and they botched it in the worst way possible. The fact that Carrie died during the trilogy's production and freaking Mary Poppins Leia was one of her last real moments on screen is painful
been saying this for years. honestly i view the "thu audiance needs to see them selves in the character" argument as incredibly toxic, it stops people from learning to care about people and stories that aren't theirs. the it's a fictional character argument is bullshi and gaslighting. if it were in any way vallid then why are the people useing to part of the sicussion in the first place.
“Your feelings for her, are not real.”
“THEY ARE REAL TO ME!!!”
I know what you’re referencing and I salute you for it
@@EternityKingdomsHeadHoncho"It's an older meme, sir, but it checks out."
Damn I knew this but I can't remember where it is from 😂
@@crakhaedI have seen it in too many things to know if I even saw the first time.
@@crakhaedForce Unleashed 2
I hate it when people say "it's a fictional character, no big deal" argument as a way to justify bastardizing legacy characters that we've grown to love.
Like what they did to Luke Skywalker in TLJ, Harry Potter in Cursed Child, etc etc.
fictional characters/individuals have been interpreted and re-interpreted for as long as stories have been told and when different cultures come into contact with those stories.
If it's no big deal, they wouldn't be going after them as hard as they have been. Those making these shows and movies know how important they are, but are hiding behind this phrase so the normies won't think twice about it.
Fear not. This too will pass.
70 years later people still watch and rave about the Maltese Falcon while hundreds of other movies are forgotten. 70 years from now the original trilogy will still be watched and enjoyed while the rest of "Star Wars" will be a footnote at best.
@@gloriathomas3245You're referring to the way information traveled in a time when you couldn't go on the internet and find the source material. This doesn't really apply in the information age.
It's a conversation stopper, not a meaningful attempt to engage. It is designed to dismiss & minimalist a perspective they don't understand - in other words, a failure of empathy.
When Batman holds Ace's hand in Justice League because she's scared of dying. Tears every damn time 😢
This.
But apparently it's dumb because they're fictional character -_-
@@Hanoua2 yep...
Or when Babydoll broke down after looking at that funhouse mirror that showed how she would look as an adult and Batman comforts her. A man robed of his childhood and a woman who can't escape it.
Also FunFact: Ace from Batman Beyond is named after that Ace.
@@Deuteromis yeah, I knew about Ace the dog. That was sweet. And yes, there's plenty of tear jerking moments. I'll never feel bad for crying like a little baby. It just happens.
They may not be real, but they represent things that are #ShadyDoorags
Or, on the contrary, ideals that are unrealistic, but which inspire us.
Fictional characters don't matter? - Only to real people that lack any skill to write fictional characters, but want to make money of them.
If that kind of thinking is widely spread among creatives, it is no surprise that the writing has gone downhill.
My response to the question will always be the same: "if it doesn't matter, then why do you care if I'm so invested?"
Exactly
And they responded with silence right?
If it matters to you the way real people matter to you then you probably are too attached to fictional characters and it makes sense to care about you caring too much because you are real. That having been established, it’s not the case that fictional characters don’t matter at all.
@@matityaloran9157I disagree, if you went on Facebook and made "friends" with someone, then find out that person was fake or a stolen identity, the difference between the people effected by that identity theft and those effected by a fictional character is 1...
Now sure the real life person likely got harmed more but you likely both got robbed.
I say the same thing to people who change characters then claim I shouldn't care about the change. well then why was it changed in the first place? It's gaslighting and an appeal to triviality to mask that they do care and simply like the change.
As a story teller your #1 goal is for your audience to feel something about your characters, if you're making tge argument that fictional characters don't matter you've lost the plot, literally
The people who do this to characters and stories that they don't care about, are just like school bullies who steal the toys from kids on the playground. They start mashing two guys' faces together, mockingly make them say and do things that the characters would never say or do, usually with mocking voices as well.
I'd like to think it's not malicious, like this, but they've done this far too many times. It's not "fan fiction", like these people have always loved the characters and stories that they're now continuing... what they do to the characters is evil. It's "hate fiction", and I believe they know what they're doing.
Spite fiction era
Characters become internalized, they become part of us. The betrayal we feel when a friend or partner suddenly changes or turns out to be different than what we thought is the same betrayal we feel when a fictional character is drastically changed.
Interesting fact, the word canon used for fictional stories (the word canon itself meaning truth from the bible) was first used when Sherlock Holmes was written later with a completely different type of character. Even back then people got upset about such things and demanded the work stick to canon.
True. I breaks my heart to see a character I love, not only be written badly, but being so misunderstood that future readers and writers alike think that the worst written version of that character is how they should always be portrayed.
💯
My Fear with Superman.
I honestly don't understand how people can brush off the assassinations of beloved characters by the higher-ups who never cared about the franchises they're destroying, by asking the fans why they care so much and to stop making "such a big deal" out of it, when they would be feeling the same way if it was done to their favorite characters--or more personally, if it was characters that they created themselves that were being destroyed. Unless you, for some reason, don't give a crap about your own product that you've slaved away for years and decades... which I also don't understand.
I've been writing for years, been drawing my characters for years, and I have many characters I've created over the years that I've come to love as heroes and as villains. I've had my main character since 2008, my preteen years, and as such he is my most personal out of the rest of them and I've been creating and developing his story since December 2013.
So when I hear fans' reactions to characters being unnecessarily changed for nothing but the higher-up's own ulterior political goals, when I hear fans getting understandably angry at characters' personalities being defiled by the studio's own sense of entitlement and political motives, and/or replaced by inferior gender-swapped and/or race-swapped Mary-Sue clones without all the relatability and the flaws that made the characters they're replacing feel real, all while the studios take a huge dump all over the original franchises and lie about them as if they were always problematic from the start (looking at you, Amazon and the Rings of Prime, and looking at you, Disney and your trash-heap "live-action" remakes), and finally tell their own audience to "take it or shut the eff up", "it's just a movie", "they're just characters! they're not real", "it wasn't made for you", or "it's for a new generation now", I get pissed. Because I think to myself how much effort went into making those franchises and those movies and comics, the amount of years the creators slaved away, how much blood, sweat, and tears went into earning the popularity they got. And if those were my characters being taken from me and desecrated to appeal to some made-up political "modern audience" and to appeal to the crapfest that is the politics of today, I would be very pissed off and would not accept it.
So many people grew up with Disney, with Star Wars, with Star Trek, with Lord of the Rings, and so many people got inspired to create their own IPs because of them. Fictional characters help other people look outside the box and relate to others that don't look like them, think differently, or live different lives from them. So don't let people tell you to stop critiquing these studios and their destruction of the original franchises, just because the characters aren't real.
Keep up the good work, and great video!
The "new generation" thing makes me angry, and I always answer that even new generations deserve GOOD WRITING and well made characters.
(By the way: drawing and writing weird author here, me too! 🙂)
@@marcellaacone7085 yet you all hate the new generations and have zero hope for them
@@chandlerburse - I am the hater here? Ok BOOMER!
@@chandlerburse if the new generation is crappy, because they have been raised on vapid social media bullshit, fake political ideals, and a shit ton of drugs, doesn't that just prove their point?
just because a shit person deserved better doesn't mean they're not a shit person, in fact, the mistreatment or denial of critical things plays a large role in them being... shit.
where past generations had epics, and stories, deep concepts, and discussions of trauma, historic universal feelings like abandonment, hopelessness, and love... the new generation has one dimensional mary sues, and... tik-tok.
They will learn nothing, and feel nothing.
@@chandlerbursewho is this “you all” think before you comment.
Fictional characters are not real, but when you follow a franchise for long enough, you will grow emotional attachments to them as if they were real, so it doesn’t matter when a franchise destroys them
All stories are fictional. You can never capture reality in the retelling of something.
@@nicholasflamel1134agreed.
“Since it is so likely that (children) will meet cruel enemies, let them at least have heard of brave knights and heroic courage. Otherwise you are making their destiny not brighter but darker.” ― C.S. Lewis anybody that thinks it doesnt matter is truly evil in my eyes
C.S.Lewis the GOAT!
I agree with Lewis. That said, someone can be misguided and wrong without being evil
@@matityaloran9157 the people who make it their goal or mission to tear down or belittle these characters do so because they hate the morality the characters represent its fine to not understand peoples attachment to fictional characters its a complete other thing to gleefully supplant what these characters represent to spite your percieved political/social enemies
@@alexandermccabe556 Yes. That is the point I was making
@@matityaloran9157 i knew a guy who watched star wars with his father in theaters when he was a kid years later his father was old and dying and he asked his son to put on star wars so they could watch it together one last time anyone who would destroy that is truly evil in my eyes
In my first year of Uni I had an Anthropology course. We studied myths, early civilisations in relation to fairy tales and myths etc. One thing that stuck with me was that, according to research, early orally told fairy tales would elicit the same reactions we see today in the audience if they weren't told right. Even worse, because then the story teller could face physical repercussions even. The hero's journey was supposed to go a certain way, every one being very familiar with the trope and the characters themselves weren't that well contoured- just the bare bones: the hero who is young and brave, the heroine who is the most beautiful there is etc. Just a simple phrase to kinda give the audience a sense of the archetype they embodied. The story itself was and remains a ritual. That blew my mind. I even wanted to do my PhD on that topic but ultimately let that dream go. My point is, it seems people who are in charge of telling stories should be educated in that area to really understand how the subconscious works. My guess is that they are trying to influence that with modern ideas but, in a sense, they miss that the bones of a story and characters should remain the same. I recently watched George Lucas talking about myths and how he wanted to offer that to a new generation and I also just found out he is an Anthropology major himself. That makes so much sense. He understands the human need for myths, for heroes and catharsis.
Edit: I think Jung explains this best when talking about the collective subconscious. I strongly encourage anyone to check out his ideas.
Anthropology hopefully taught you also that our species is worthless
27:19 “it’s not my car anymore”. That hits so hard and is the perfect example of when your favorite franchise has been altered and ruined to the point you don’t care anymore
The people who make fun of others for getting attached to fictional characters are often the same people who scream and throw things if a football player on tv doesn’t throw the football very well.
Nah. They’re the same ranting and raving about “the message” like Critical Drinker. It’s all a big joke until it’s a character they care about.
They're not. They're the same kind of people who will make fun of the people who dare to get attached enough to their favorite NFL team to cheer them on or wear their favorite players' jerseys to games. It's about having an angle to feel superior to someone else rather than empathizing.
At least Football players are real. So it makes more sense why people argue over certain players. Fictional characters are not. Yes, we love them and we grew up with them, but at the end of the day, we dont benefit anything out of them, just joy really.
Ironically, blockbuster franchises have all become victims of a political activist Annie Wilkes, who causes those involve to apologize and cave in to the downgrade degeneracy culture being pushed in by a certain group. It's been a decade already of this roundabout argument and all it accomplishes is apathy.
I'm not really in any fandoms, but I'm obsessed with my own characters and writing (judge me if you want idc), and one thing that I saw once that still kinda pisses me off to think about was someone saying something like, "Stop saying your character did this or your character did that and surprised you. They're not real, and you're not quirky for acting like they are." It was just this same attitude but repackaged as "writing advice" and it's never made sense to me. Let people feel things. Let them be excited about characters or proud of their work. The type of people that brush this off are clearly not artists and belong in a boardroom looking at graphs and pie charts.
And clearly not worth bothering with
Characters can be fun and help us strive to be better people. They can also serve ad warnings or what not to do and what not to be like. Are they real? No, they aren't. But people saying they don't matter at all are incredibly misguided.
It’s a critique to which I’m somewhat sympathetic when it comes from people who are sincere about it but the kinds of people who consider it extremely important to alter significant aspects of established characters aren’t the kinds of people that I take seriously when they offer this critique
Atticus Finch has been a role model and a touchstone of integrity throughout my life -- a fictional character.
He got destroyed too sadly
@@ChildOfTheFlowerEverything with Go Set a Watchman is kind of funny and kind of sad. From “whoa! An unreleased sequel to Kill an Mockingbird” to “oh. So that’s why it was never released.”
Sidenote: There is quite the growing hatred and resentment building for Batman. Not from the general audiences, but from a subset of fans (and a lot of the creators). There is a lot of talk about him being a fascist and a corrupt billionaire, and so on and so forth. I see more and more efforts to tear him down. Its sad.
I’m am genuinely sick and tired of people online calling superheroes “defenders of the status quo.” Like, no. They’re literally taking matters into their own hands to stop criminals and supervillains. If every story was “ro ro fight the power” shit would get boring and repetitive. Fiction doesn’t have to stick to one mold.
We spend so much time with these characters that they become like friends to us, so when they are done dirty, it really hurts us, and when they gets wins, it's a massive win for us!
I find it very serendipitous that you posted this video on the anniversary of the "death" of one of my favorite series (Guillermo del Toro's Tales of Arcadia series on Netflix--the series finale premiered on July 21st, 2021 and was one of the biggest, most unexpected "screw you"s to the audience I've ever seen). Sometimes I feel a little embarrassed that a show suddenly turning horrible right at the very end made me mourn as much as it has--especially since it had its' fair share of "goofy kids' cartoon (derogatory)" moments. But it helped a lot hearing you explain some of the psychology behind my attachment to those characters.
It's a sign of good writing, I have just started reading Gunslinger girl, and a lot of the cast are broken in some way or another that it's possible to emphasize with. From Henrietta to Pinoiocco, you are feeling something for someone from mild disgust to pity to sharing their joy.
That's good writing, for me.
the incredible hulk is the character i am most attached too, seeing him being ruined from avengers 2012 all the way to the present hurt alot, he is not some butt of the joke, he is a complex serious character that goes through so much, he saw his mom die, he had a abusive father, he has many personality's as the hulk, and with all that, he still goes out of his way to help people (as bruce or hulk).
seeing him now as the "oh ha ha, look he hit thor in a funny way." or seeing him wimp out with thanos. it's just character assassination.
Never mind his treatment in She Hulk.
Edward Norton understood Hulk a lot better than the modern MCU does
Someone please use this video as reference for a TED talk or something!
If I was a college professor, I would give you an A+. You really touched the topic in such a deep and beautiful way. Your video essay capitalizes on how we as individuals feel, or hold on to such wonderfully made fictional characters.❤
14:23 Oh, look, that is a moment Luke and Kylo should have had in the Sequels. Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
That was well done. Thinking about what was done to Mara Jade in the books and what was done to Luke in the sequels still hurts.
What happened to Mara Jade in the books? Jacen killing her, or something else?
@@violetlavi2207 Most of the authors beyond Zahn did not do her very well, and dropped the ball on a lot her dynamic with Luke. Yes I will never forgive Traviss for killing her off but also for her Jedi dislike as well. We had pushed so hard to get them married and then NJO gives her a disease and they don't even get a child till she's in her 40's either. We wanted Legacy Skywalkers for the future when Luke and Mara were younger.
@@MariahJade1 oh yikes. Thanks for the summary, that really sucks
The story of Zuko and Iroh is the best retelling of the Prodigal Son that I've ever seen in my life. As a Christian it legit led me to understand God and that parable in a much different and deeper way than I had before. And I agree, these characters and stories matter to us because of what they represent to us, what they mean in the context of our own lives.
People probably don't think about modern media as great art but that's exactly what the best examples are and great art should matter.
I know these things are owned by giant corporations but we're well past the point of admitting what's being done is cultural vandalism.
Yeah, why is it when something is actually influential and recognizable in the modern day people decide it must be a fluke and that it isn't that important, but then try to push some shit no one's ever cared about as a bestselling story that will make history because it has "important topics".
Character assassination, retcon and just straight up alteration changes are some of the worse things that van happen for me.
I wasn't angry at Rian Johnson until I saw his response to critics of the Last Jedi on Twitter. It just looked like he enjoyed the suffering of fans. I just checked out.
Luke Skywalker is my all time favorite character in Star Wars Legends, and I wish that Disney made a film of him and his wife Mara Jade rebuilding the Jedi Order together instead of making Ma-Rey-Sue Palpatine rebuild the Jedi Order the exact same it was in the Prequels.
I got even more angry at him after his response to the fan backlash of Arya stealing Jon Snow's arc and anticlimactically killing the Night King for him while he was too busy screaming at a dragon in Game of Thrones Season 8, Episode 3: "Damn. I had a really cool Night King theory!"
It really came off as him taking a swing at us and the fans who were upset at Snoke's similarly dissatisfying death in TLJ.
@RoronoaZoro-ur6hr The money is with the Skywalkers. They can get other actors to play them, but they are Star Wars.
@graylykan2739 He has a bad relationship with fans. I mean, was he ever a fan to begin with? People pay to see your work and you have a bizarre taste to mock them?
People use that “It’s just make believe!” bs when they have nothing substantive to add to the conversation, but they still want to dismiss someone else’s critique. They’re either liars, trolls, or sociopaths. Caring about something that is incapable of returning that affection is one of the highest forms of empathy.
This was an awesome video! I hate when people do that. The whole point is to be invested in these fictional characters. It's a passion and should never be shamed for. I get it all the time about the assassination Harley's character.
You said it perfectly: " *And sometimes it's the people who get most upset with how characters are being used are the people who know them the best. That's why they notice the details of when they change. And to be upset about that is just them being passionate, not wanting to lose something that's good* " 💯👏
empathy is the reason why i fell in love with the original version of Harley Quinn
Eustass Kid is a mass murder that crucifies people, and I feel more empathy towards him than any current animated or live action remake film from Disney.
👏
You fell in love with a deranged stockholm murderer because of empathy?
@chandlerburse well what villian do YOU like then 😒
@@horrordragon2010 Killer Croc, Two Face, Mr Freeze, Clayface, Joker, Penguin, Firefly, Falcone, Catwoman
my favourite character is The Joker and to see him getting trained by some bloke named Captio??? in the comics recently.... man you gotta be kidding me 😂😂😂
The characters may not be real, but our emotions are. When Maleficent has her wings cut off by someone she trusted and reacts the way she does is a brutal gut punch every time I see it.
7:50,. There's a lot of great moments throughout the trilogy, but this particularly scene has always stuck with me and solidifies Sam as one of the best supporting characters in any piece of fiction! At least in my opinion, anyways. Astin's delivery of this line is so powerful, accompanied with the "Into the West" tempo blasted to a soaring climax when Sam hauls Frodo over his shoulders and proceeds to carry him to Mt. Doom. Absolute chills! I'm glad I'm not the only one to have been touched by this scene!
Often, the same people giving you static for caring about fictional characters are the ones who don't even care about other real people. They dismiss your empathy because they lack their own, and the way they dismiss your feelings about something is a clear demonstration of their inability or unwillingness to empathize with others.
You are right Jester. I can tell you I remember Hasbro getting a lot of heat after death of Optimus Prime in the 1984 movie. Fictional yes, but to a lot of young kids..he was pseudo father figure that showed how to be a good leader and person. Sacrifice, honor, compassion, wisdom, charisma, strong but gentle. Peter Cullen's voice did this along with the story. So yes, fictional characters can have a profound impact on people. I can say I went with my father to see this movie and even he was appalled seeing the reaction by myself and all the children devastated by the scene
many moons ago,there was a scene in The English Patient film that really moved me to tears... traveling through the desert after a plane crash,the character of the Count carried his injured beloved for miles to the safety of a cave and afterwards went for aid/help,only to return to find out she had passed... 😢
The one thing I've learned in my life is that if someone is upset, it should be taken seriously. They have a reason. They always have a reason. It may seem like they're freaking out over something silly, but you are not them. You do not have insight into what they are feeling.
What isn't important to one person, is super important to someone else.
I am upset and no one cares
People get upset all the TIME and no one cares
What a terrible argument
Also this argument basically validates every childish tantrum ever
Because the ideas are real, they are analogies to things that people relate to in real life, they give people something to compare what they know with something else.
By changing a characters appearance or personality you're telling the reader/watcher "this idea you believe in is wrong" or "what i want is more important than what is"
Yeah, I also always see these kind of behaviours as an insult to whoever previously worked on the project. If their vision is scrapped you are disrespecting real people who made a good effort to create something with meaning for others.
If an author is dead, it feels worse. Almost like someone tried to double kill them by stamping out their legacy.
@iceprism367 yeah... it's like who are they, to come in after the fact and just say "this is the official version, and I made it!"
I think stories are owned by those who read them, not by those who buy the copyrights for them.
People care so much about characters, and when they are changed, it can invite the fans to disagree with the change. One side of the fan base may like this change which is perfectly legitimate, but it is also perfectly legitimate if there is a side of the fan base that doesn’t agree with the change to the character.
Well said...thanks for sharing your vulnerability with us...
Chill!!! Uncle aaron, btas, iroh, zuko!!!! You're making me cry rn 😭
Peter B Parker: “Hey, we’ve all been there before. Y’know for me,… for me, it was my Uncle Ben.
Spider-Man Noir: “And for me, it was my Uncle Benjamin.”
Peni Parker: “For me, it was father.”
Gwen Stacy: “For me, it was my best friend.”
Spider Ham: “Miles, the hardest part of this job is… you can’t always save everyone.”
*Hollywood board room meeting*
"Okay, so you know that movie The Crow about a man riddled with pain and grief seeking vengeance for the life that was taken from him so he and his deceased fiance may finally be at peace?"
"Yeah."
"Let's just make a dumb edgy John Wick style action film remake starring the guy who played Pennywise out of it."
Yeah. People who think characters don't matter emotionally are people like this. This is why everything sucks now.
It's real simple (and it applies to Stephen King): IF the characters are not important, than the story is not important.
Stories and characters absolutely *do* matter. Why else do certain stories still stick with us after decades or hundreds, if not thousands of years? Because of the emotional impacts they have on us, the universal themes they touch on, the characters that feel as relatable now as they did then. Stories make us human, they're an undeniable part of who we are.
some people seem really set on ruining lots of things that, according to them, don't matter.
right they shout about how it doesn't matter, while dedicating a ton of effort to changing it.
But if it "doesn't matter" why are they changing it!?
Even when the fictional characters are complete fantasy, they're all based on real feelings, even real stories from real people.
The same people who dismiss fictional characters are the same kind of people who will then go on to sink a couple thousand dollars into their FANTASY football league.
If you’re looking for more scholarly looking at the importance of imaginary characters, see CS Lewis’ essays in defense of the Fairy Tale like “Sometimes Fairy Stories May Say Best What’s to be Said” or Tolkien’s essay “On Fairy-Stories”. Because back after the First World War there was a massive shift away from fantasy. They said kids needed _real_ stories. (If you look at a list of Newberry books from the 40s, you’ll see that a LOT of them were biographies.)
I feel this way about Jinx from Teen Titans, I was invested in the character and her potential relationship with Cyborg. Then Season 5 happened and i felt kinda betrayed by how she was written. It felt mean spirited towards the Hive Five too.
I would've preferred Jinx marrying and having a family with Cyborg; Kid Flash marrying and having a family with Artemis, and Jason Todd marrying and having a family with Slade Wilson's daughter.
What troubles me most is that this current generation is gleefully tearing down everything that came before, but they don't have anything to offer in exchange. Once they have succeeded in tearing down everything anyone loves, what then?
This is a very very great video. That said.
I can relate to Spiderman quirks and social anxieties.
I went through trauma and am an isolationist like batman with brooding and do it myself attitude.
I can relate to obi wan as well until Disney got a hold of him
Imagine your dog died, or your house burned down. All your sentimental belongings are destroyed... And someone walks up to you and says "What's the big deal? Just move on."
All I could think about while you were talking was Arthur Morgan. I’ve been sad characters have died before but Arthur hit like I lost a family member. I get sad when I think about him still, I mean it’s really like you lost someone. It’s so odd.
I got a long list of characters I can relate to. Me and my sister relate to Peter Parker (Spider-Man) because he goes through alot and takes alot of responsibilities.
I know the difference between fiction and reality & I also understand that fictional characters are precious (Especially the characters we grew up with) too. I also know that I should not hurt people who played characters I don't like. I respect those who like characters I don't like & I respect and understand you too, JesterBell.
👏
@@notyouraverageharleyquinnstan Agreed.
I get it. It's why Capcom's mishandling of Mega Man hurts me so much, and why later seasons of MLP Friendship is Magic frustrated me.
As far i can tell bronies in this day and age are as bad as people use to claim
So who cares about fucking MLP?
@@chandlerburse As one of the fans who started in Season 1 and likes to believe she's not that bad?
Me. I care.
Sometimes people do something that is completely out of character for them. As much as people are logical and consistent people can be emotional or irrational and do something unpredictable. It can be unpleasant to experience someone doing something out of character, but it is still realistic for that to happen.
We need heroes, we need to admire and be inspired by ideal characters that may not exist in real life but can make us feel better and perhaps even inspire us to be better than what we are
I died when I was 2. They say I was dead for 2 minutes.
I can't understand the way people can draw these stark, solid conclusions that make so very much sense.
Fiction can help you to feel not alone, oh, yeah, it does that, I thought it just made me feel better about being alive. I didn't really consider why.
I do not see the world the way most people do.
I know I'm not alone.
"Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." I heard that at 7 and went, "yup, he knows".
Again, didn't consider why. Doesn't matter. Feels good.
I think it's why I like Doctor Aphra in the Star Wars comics. Sure, she's a dumpster fire, but she's surviving any way she can. That feels good. She's a bad person, but her story feels good.
Because these characters are a part of our childhoods, and taught us lessons about life similar to our parents. Yes their "not real" but the basis of their ideologies, and world views are real at least to me.
Our childhoods are fucking gone
Reliving them is fun but its still gone and our species is probably gonna die
Really goodstuff thanks.
I never really leave comments and I just have to say that you have articulated something that I've felt for a very long time. Thank you for the video.
Humans learn by experience.
Some things we cant experience ourselves but we can by others example: positive or negative.
Thats why good art is so important. We can get context, a framework and even proxy experience through art.
A friend of mine was upset about the revelation behind Sol from The Acolyte. He said the charge was character assassination.
I told him, "It's the seventh episode of a brand new show with brand new characters. You cannot claim 'character assassination' his initial story hasn't even finished yet."
I mean…when a character has been shown to be incredibly gentle, empathetic, and the Jedi ideal, and like that even as a youngster, his sudden turn into “child murderer/kidnapper” does in fact count as character assassination
@@violetlavi2207 By that logic, The Prospector, Lotso Hugging Bear, and Prince Hans were character assassinated in Toy Story 2, Toy Story 3, and Frozen respectively.
The Acolyte set up from the beginning that Mae was targeting specific Jedi for revenge. One of those Jedi was so riddled with guilt that he sent himself into a decade long exile and then willingly drank lethal poison. Therefore, Sol had to be involved with something terrible.
I will acknowledge that Sol's reveal was confusing, frustrating, and disappointing. However, it wasn't character assassination.
Furthermore, one of the goals of the program was to present the Jedi as an imperfect organization. Behind the Jedi's benevolence and generosity there are people that make mistakes, have their own agendas, and can succumb to temptations. They say, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." The Acolyte highlights the first mile of that road.
I am NOT saying that The Acolyte was a good show. Instead I am saying there is a difference between character assassination and getting reveals that people didn't like.
@@HighHeelKnight ...well those were twist villains, while Sol is not. He's a character established to be kind and well-meaning for his entire life, who for some reason decided to kill out of nowhere once, steal a child, and lie about it. Lotso and Prospector are shown to have qualities that could be twisted into villainy (Lotso is committed to order at all costs (see his conversation with Woody about moving rooms), Prospector wants to go to the museum and be preserved and scorns being loved by a child) but Sol? Not so much. The only thing you could MAYBE use as proof is that he cared about Osha very much, but...that's weak as evidence. So...yeah I'd call it character assassination.
And mind you, showing the Jedi as a flawed organization is all well and good (when it doesn't veer into "they deserved to be massacred"), but twisting a character who has been nothing but kind into a lying murderer is not the way to do it.
@@violetlavi2207 Well, if can have twist villains then we can have twist heroes.
Again, it is not character assassination when it is the first and only story about the character. If Sol had been around several seasons or several movies or several books, and then he's revealed to be a padawan obsessed creep that killed a parent and covered up the extinction of a society, THEN such reveals could be argued as character assassination. That's not Sol though. These eight episodes is Sol's one and only story that was created by one and only showrunner.
Lesyle Headland make it abundantly clear from the get-go that Sol and his Jedi companions were involved in something terrible. Then she revealed what the terrible thing was. That's not character assassination. That is delivering what was on the marquee.
Was the writing bad? Yes.
Was Sol's reveal character assassination? No. It was the exact opposite.
By the way, did you ever consider that the Brendok tragedy was how Sol grew to be a kind and well-meaning Jedi Master? As much as I hate The Last Jedi, the movie made one good point: "The greatest teacher failure is."
Let's hope that Lesyle Headland was been taught a lot, if she gets a second season.
Characters may not be real, but neither is you favorite toy, car, or house is actually alive. Whatever it is, we get attached to it, and when we see it broken and gotten rid of, that's just devastating.
As a former homeschooler myself, such representation Is so hard to come by, let alone representation I find the most pleasing, recent example of what I actually I’m talking about comes from the recent incarnations of Power Rangers: Dino/Cosmic Fury with the blue Ranger as a character they introduced that was not public educated, but they didn’t show him going through any of the same, not even similar struggles that I went through, all that just fell by the wayside in favor of first female green ranger having a girlfriend, that alienation that I was made to feel whether intentional or not seemed to have turned up to somewhere off the charts when said character was brainwashed by the villain for the (censored because spoilers), but I wanted instead was the character infiltrating the villains ranks to gain Intel for his team because it would have felt like less of a demonization.
I kinda feel the same way with characters such as Touka from Tokyo Ghoul, Denji from Chainsaw Man, Kite Man x Golden Glider, Gambit, Spiderman, Robin, Kratos from God of War, Tidus and Noctis from Final Fantasy Shionne from Tales of Arise, Velvet from Tales of Arise, Akira from Zom 100 go through a lot of traumatic and emotionally damaging stuff.
I'm going through these feelings currently after what the Elden Ring DLC did to Miquella's character 😫
Fictional characters are meant to be a reflection of ourselves and our cherished societal values.
Traditional fictional heroes around the world, regardless of background, have commonly sought to embody heroism, true love, bravery, discipline, strength, and honesty.
Taking that and destroying it and/or bastardizing it is a form or cultural and societal breakdown… vandalism at the representation of our values.
Only a fool or an enemy would demolish such a thing.
X: "This character / series / worldbulding was destroyed.
Y: "No I disagree / it's not that bad."
X: "I can elaborate on the how and why: [longness here]"
Y: "Ugh, why do you care??"
The factor of wanting to win with an opinion no matter what is all too present. Oftentimes "caring about fiction too much" isn't criticized reasonably, but as an easy means to point out the flaws on others and get points in a discussion. It's petty, some criticism make people feel bad and they react badly about it by wanting those critics to lose in society by whatever means. In a certain postcast I watch, all the people who act like this are either kinda dumb & with low standards in their understanding of media, or the same on top of hypocrites, as they care too much about fiction themselves with enough time in between their accusations.
I hate this argument that we shouldn't take a deal because theyre not real.
Dude why shouldn't I cry if my favourite character of all time wich is Oh Yoon hee is suffering her entire life and is having a brutal and emotional death?!
We cry because we matter, ae matter because we like thess character and we like these characters because they are good written!
I've been recommding your channel to Star Wars Theory, Critical Drinker...you have great assessments. Intelligent, introspective and articulated nicely. Love your videos and agree with you.
I think there's a difference between the more static (and once honored) lore of SW and LOTR, and the much more fluid universes like Marvel and DC where experimentation is a huge part of the history.
Yes. The catharsis. The opportunity to process and go through things in a safe way. Myths, stories, histories, narrative are so important for us to develop and understand.
I've seen a lot of men be inspired to be better fathers when they see Bandit in Bluey.
I think it's quite beautiful that human's can even empathizes with people who don't exist.
I am not crazy!!!! Oh my goodness I am not crazy! Thank you so much, I know I am not the only one.
I can relate to this video a little too much! I became really attached to the Twelfth Doctor and it really upsets me every time his actor Peter Capaldi says he won’t come back to reprise his role. It also didn’t help that I found out on Christmas Eve 2020 during the height of the pandemic . I understand his reasoning (or at least I try to) and he doesn’t owe fans anything but it still hurts. I still hope he changes his mind one day 🥺I also get really frustrated and defensive when people say that the Twelfth Doctor and Clara aren’t a romance when Capaldi himself called them “ a truly romantic relationship”.
Thanks for this video.
It actually worries me when people sincerely don't understand why fictional characters do matter, and stories are part of what makes us human.
this is probably the best analysis of media I've seen in a while, you put all my thoughts into words I couldn't even describe great job
These stories matter to a lot of people. I am one of those people, but I always connected to [Star Wars] this story of good versus evil for so long because it is a TIMELESS story. Since I was 4 (I didn't fully understand at the time, but good v. Evil is something I could grasp)
There's a thriller called Funny Games that does a great job at explaining this very point while simultaneously ruining your week lol
I wouldn’t take Steven King seriously when he had written a "child orgy" in one of his books just saying…
7:00 I still remember the taste of strawberries and cream
Im a grown man... but whenever i see that one scene in Spider-Man Homecoming where peter has to cheer himself on in order to get the collapsed roof off of him so he can save his friends and win. "come on Spider-Man... come on Spider-Man..." gets me every time.
This was great to get some insight on things. Say, I know with Star Wars I didn't quite know how to articulate how it had changed and not felt like the old Star Wars. After watching so many people describe it I know feel I can better describe it myself.
I grew up with Halo and the Master chief. Even if he is fictional, he taught me to "finish the fight". 3 Words that give me strength even in hard times. He is a symbol for me, a symbol of strength and integrity. A man that (not in his childhood) willingly protects, even if it means to sacrifice himself. Things that i deeply praise and which are part of my value system. Now seeing this Man getting devolved into a pre-pubercent sex driven emotionally unstable failed project by Paramount was a personal attack. They went for greed and attacked which i hold sacred.
Fuck big companies attacking and using art for their financial or ideological benefit.
I'm sending this video to everyone I know that also gets crap for being a hardcore fan👍
my man anakin had the best story arc in any series ever and they flushed it for an evil mary sue.
If fictional characters didn't emotionally connect to the reader, I wouldn't want to be a writer.
If it's nothing but simple "entertainment" then whatever, let people play Candy Crush. But we know it's more than that.
Honestly, if a story doesn’t elicit some kind of emotional response from its audience, it has failed. Plain and simple.
You did a great job with this video. I really loved all of the examples and personal anecdotes you used to clearly express your points. Glad you went through with making it, even though it made you uncomfortable.
I walked out of TLJ depressed
Same. I had this feeling of "wow... so this is how the main saga will end, huh?" I knew it was doomed and the next movie wasn't going to fix things. Both the new characters and the old characters had been turned into these super unlikable weird versions of themselves and the story just felt so mean-spirited.
This was Disney's only chance to wrap up the story with the og actors and pass the torch to the next generation, and they botched it in the worst way possible. The fact that Carrie died during the trilogy's production and freaking Mary Poppins Leia was one of her last real moments on screen is painful
been saying this for years. honestly i view the "thu audiance needs to see them selves in the character" argument as incredibly toxic, it stops people from learning to care about people and stories that aren't theirs.
the it's a fictional character argument is bullshi and gaslighting. if it were in any way vallid then why are the people useing to part of the sicussion in the first place.