Her not having The Joker in her backstory is so weird, becuase she was ment to show just how much of a monster The Joker was. He destroyed her, and turned what was a respected doctor, into a mentally unhinged groupie who now blindly takes abuse and helps destroy lives. She's a tragic character, but also a monster, created by an even bigger monster.
She doesn't need him and they can't be in a toxic one sided relationship if you want to call it that forever... That's glorying toxic and abusive relationships
@@Fighttilltheend0136 It’s her backstory. Without it she’s a fundamentally different person. Thats not glorifying a toxic relationship, it’s recognizing it’s not the same character. People, unfortunately, are made from their trauma. Without it, those same people would objectively be different.
Back in 2015 I applied for a job at a comic book store. The girl who they interviewed before me got asked "Who's your favorite comic book character?" She said Harley Quinn, "Because she and Joker are just like me and my boyfriend!" The comic shop owner paused and asked "Should we call the cops for you?" And she was completely confused why he asked that.
See, this is why I’m always more curious what happens after the stories only told for the “interesting” parts on UA-cam. What happened after it was explained to her?
@@bruceleeds7988 yeah I know I was just pointing out the horrible way thry demeaned her because thry literally don't understand the tragedy behind the old Harley
The best version of this is the one in the Harleen comic, where they make the only retcon to her backstory I agree with--she didn't date her professors for good grades; that was just a rumor.
I'm picturing Harley, Luke Skywalker and Velma in the basement of a church having a support group for characters who have been mishandled. Galadriel enters, sits down and starts bawling her eyes out.
A church basement frankly isn’t large enough a venue to hold a support group for recently deconstructed and abused characters. They would need to hire out Madison Square Garden.
Yes!!! Preach it! I want the old harley back,the one who told batman "nice guys like you should never have a bad day" after he told her "i had a bad day once" and handed her a pink dress.
Likewise! The one who was kooky, but also could be kind and thoughtful in her own way. The current (per)version of Harley has been dumbed down so that her personality is just "I'm quirky, and I hate all men! WAAAAAAAAHMMMAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNN POOOOWWWWEEEERRRRRR!"
Three words: Seagate Amusement Park. For those who don't know, in the Arkhamverse, there was an oil baron called Edward Burke who wanted to build an amusement park for his ill-stricken five year old daughter, Katie Burke. Burke knew Harley as psychiatrist Harleen Quinzel and talked to her about Katie drawing ideas for the park so Harley allowed him to make contact with a close associate of her named Jack White, who assisted in the creation of the park. What Burke didn't know however is that Jack White was an alias of the Joker, who wanted a new base of operation and decided to use the park. During the construction of the park, Jack referred Katie to Penelope Young, a doctor at Arkham who didn't know Jack was the Joker, who treated Katie with Titan. Now about the Titan. In the Arkhamverse, Titan was a compound created by Young to make patients more resilient both physically and mentally so they could endure more brutal treatments in the asylum but the Joker wanted to use it to create an army of monsters to take over and destroy Gotham. In essence, it's basically Bane's Venom on steroids (which is logical considering Young had captured Bane and extracted the Venom in his body to create the new compound). Your body mutates so drastically your bones burst out of it in a gory manner, you completely lose your mind and there's a high chance you die from a massive and very painful heart attack. That's the refined and finished version. Katie was treated with an unrefined and very much not perfected version. Bit by bit. Once the park was finished, Jack/Joker had Katie outright killed with an *overdose* of Titan and she died in indescribable pain. Edward was beyond heart broken and had nothing left to live for. So Jack, through Harley, gave him some pills so he could commit suicide. Except what they didn't tell him is the pills contained Joker Venom/Smilex. Burke poisoned himself with them and literally died laughing in excruciating pain. So to make it clear, in the Arkhamverse, the Joker murdered an innocent man and his five years old ill-stricken daughter in horrible fashion because he wanted to get a new base for himself. And Harley willingly and knowingly helped him and had a direct hand in it. (For the record, this is not even the worse thing the Joker has done in this universe, the school bus and the baptism being even worse). This is only one of the problems Kill the Justice League has but it's one of the biggest. The game paints Harley as her modern, zany anti-hero self. Except in the Arkhamverse, she's an almost absolute monster who willingly and gleefully committed atrocities almost no other version of the character did and unlike the other versions, the Joker didn't have to manipulate or threaten her, she willingly assisted him and did awful stuff on her own. Even after his death, she chose to take over his gang and continue her life as a crime lord in his name. And SSKTJL wants us to root for THAT Harley.
Holy sh*t! That is utterly reprehensible! I had never heard of that story! Can't believe that they would just sweep that under the rug!!!! What an absolute monster!
It's also very important to note that Harley was already a pretty bad person before she even met the Joker in the Arkhamverse. As a psychiatrist under Hugo Strange she blackmailed Alberto Falcone for criminal purposes. She also betrayed the hippocratic oath changing Calendar Man's insanity report to advance her career. Claiming that Harley was brainwashed and a victim of the Joker is already a pretty shaky claim, but the Arkhamverse is literally the worst continuity to do so.
Yeah, Harley should at least have to face some comeuppance before she's able to take the title of hero. I would have liked it if her character arc were something like Joker does something really bad, bad enough to snap Harley out of her infatuation, and instead of continuing to help him, she sabotages him and helps his victims, would probably work best if it's kids. Batman takes notice and helps rescue her. She tries to restart the life she had before she met the Joker, but Amanda Waller sabotages her and gets her sent to Blackgate, where she's recruited to Suicide Squad and really begins her hero training, you know, something cohesive that at least tries to make sense?
@@KB-zq9nyarkam harley should be killed by some random angry father, actually that would be a amazing story, have some rando go and kill each of the bad guys who are truly irredeemable and in the end get sent to like black gate for a year and yet he's hailed a hero, dude refused to harm innocents, went only after the most repgunent and irredeemable monster and at worst knocked a few of the others out with afew broken bones, batman does worse then that with normal goons, hell harley could actually try maniplute him only for him to shoot her head off without so much a word, he isnt looking for fame, he isnt looking for recognition, he just wants to put the biggest monsters in the grave so that gothem and the world can sleep a bit more soundly and he can put his childs soul to rest
Harley Quinn is a tragic villain, not a cool cookey anti hero. Also these male comic book writers who claim to be feminists seem to really like putting Harley in these gross and weird sexual situations. Keep in mind I am a straight man and I like me some eye candy, but those scenarios you described were worse than anything before that happened with her and the Joker!
Feminism is man code for sexual predator. It was Joss Whedon’s calling card, and if you actually bother to watch Buffy, Angel, Firefly, and Dollhouse, it’s pretty obvious what Whedon means.
Yeah, it just feels really weird. I mean, a good example of a character who has plenty of eye candy moments is Poison Ivy. She's, from her very concept, designed to have sex appeal be a part of her gimmick. But writers, good ones anyway, are able to a) do it tastefully and b) understand that the way they do it should never stray from the rules written for the character. The whole reason she's the femme fatale narratively is because it actively feeds back into her plant gimmick. The flower that's so gorgeous you can't help but reach out your hand to touch it but once you do, the hidden thorns cut into you and poison that laid on them rushes through your veins to do you in.
@@cosmicspacething3474 killing a bunch of toddlers, torture a man to the point of breaking him and destroy a dad and his daughter just bc she and the Joker wanted a new criminal base is not something an anti-hero would do. Even new characterisation of Harley can't be described as an "anti-hero" or a tragic villainess who was pushed to the end by circumstances. All of her instances, new or old, have always shown her as a morally dubious psychiatric who turned up to be a villain. The only difference now is that the writers and the public want to justify her just because "girl boss" and "we love our lesbian queen!". It's so painfully funny how we can't have now real villainess that are bad and won't deserve a redemtion because people can't phantom that a woman can do evil things and be a bad person😩
Outside of the Arkham games Harley hasn't worked as a character since Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker. They want the character to be an anti hero who hangs out with Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman but have no interest of actually building to that. They want her to be a strong independent character but also want her to be the eternal victim of some else. She doesn't work because they don't want to actually work on her.
Harley in THE Batman (2004) work great as well. Joker never physical abuse her like animated nor mentally tormented her but pull at her love sting to get her to get her to do bad thing. Joker treated her nicely as a means to fuel her to go down deeper into villainy but As Joker said to Harley "I only go along with your scheme because I find it assuming, but I'm still incharge" It the least toxic relationship between the two present. (And This Joker torment and break down Clayface
The best I’ve seen of her was in injustice 2. It’s years after the joker was killed by Superman and she realized the error of her ways and decides to be more of an antihero. Oliver queen, hal Jordan basically the league that has split from Superman doesn’t trust her because she’s still crazy so Batman and cat woman kinda reign her in. It’s the best version of the antihero Harley and not an “I don’t need no man” she is scared of joker that’s how they put him in the game one fight between her and joker after getting hit by a LOT of fear toxin. I still have some issues (usually changes in mannerisms because of the suicide squad movie.) but I still think that’s the best in the games
Also cause they seemingly just copies Marvels on Deadpool, but doesn’t understand WHY Deadpool actually works for this character type and Harley doesn’t
Harleys entire foundation as a character was that she was an insecure woman who deluded herself into obsessive love with the only person who she thought showed her love and respect. She's not a girl boss. She's a domestic abuse victim
I hate what they've done to Harley, I used to watch BTAS and even as a kid, I loved how complicated a character she was. Then they completely changed the design and made her something I didn't recognize, I hate modern day Harley.
Yeah, new 52 tried to make her more like Deadpool but without the things that make him an interesting character, as a antihero Deadpool has done some fucked up shit but due to have having a op healing factor, Deadpool can be physically punished multiple times by the author's as a form of comedic karma. Harley doesn't have that, Harley can do bad things without physical or personal consequences as even if she dies, Poison Ivy will bring her back somehow, she doesn't even have to pay for her crimes because she is always signing up to the suicide squad to get rid of her jail time. In a recent issue of Batman we see Zur En Arrh invade Harley's house and arrest her, Harley tries to explain how she is a hero now and how she has changed, but Zur En Arrh doesn't care about that and that Harley needs to pay for what she did before. Hope they can make something interesting about this because I don't see Harley as a hero and she barely counts as an anti hero, she killed a bunch of children with bombs to get the joker's attention once, she needs to face consequences for all the things she did wrong
The new Harley in Batman Caped Crusader will follow the same vain, but without the Joker ever having existed. It's less spunk but more back to the roots, so I dunno why she called out Caped Crusader cause it's literally made by Bruce Timm. Y'know co-creator of BTAS
I tried to explain this point online a while ago. I got blasted by everyone for being sexist, romanticizing an abusive relationship (even though I described her and the Joker as unhealthy) and being against "character development."
I usually put my controversial Harley opinions in the Joker fandom spaces as opposed to the Harley Quinn fandom spaces, because Harley Quinn fandom spaces sound toxic and unwelcoming. I'm with the rest of you, though. I don't think it's wrong for us to want more realism in the characters' stories.
It's unfortunate that we went from Harley Quinn being a twisted yet tragic villain fans loved into this Deadpool copy, "YaS qUeEn" girlboss anti-hero we keep getting for a decade now that makes the character FAR worse than how she was originally portrayed from BTAS, when she was a villain
Funnily enough, that’s kinda what I hear happened to Deadpool. Initially he was a twisted and somewhat tragic whose comedy was a mask for his depression. Now they’ve doubled down on his wacky, zany antics and mostly discarded his manic depression and loss of composure.
@@a_fine_edition2746 yup. Right after 2008. In fact, very rare mini series would use Wade's actual fleshed out character while the main books decide that writing Memepool was better .. go figure.
@Moodboard39 I’m just saying that before, Deadpool used to have some real nuance and a reason behind his comedy beyond being wacky and goofy. It was a mask to hide his very real psychological issues. But a lot of the time it feels that’s been forgotten.
Or like the Venom movies without Spiderman. It's sorta the recogniseable character, the movies are fun on a very surface level, but without that core component of the character's origin they are not ever going to go beyond the surface level and flesh out the character in any meaningful way.
Ya'll do realize the new Harley in Caped Crusader is created by Bruce Timm. The guy that originally created Harley in BTAS. The guy knows his stuff, so stop being stuck up with the original. Be open to new iterations of the character, be open to creativity instead of milking the same cow dry. A therapist Harley Quinn, that's less goofy but more calculated and uses her patients information against them in a manipulative manner would go hard. Being stuck in nostalgia land on how a character is "supposed" to be is what feeds into this Hollywood trend of repeating the same formula over and over. This new Harley is doing us a favor
@@MisterSlimee Character stagnation is a pretty big issue in comics and a new take on what's old is generally fun to explore though there comes the question of "how far can you change a character until you've created an OC?" characters are a cliché, a trope, something easily marketable, something that helps us define them if you do a complete 180 of them but keep the name, are they really the same character? you could argue the Batman of today isn't the Batman from 1939 due to the many differences he had in his first apparances to present day and at times, a current iteration of a character ends up also stagnant too or just annoying for the general audience, it's kind of why most episodes of shows aren't written by just one person
@@AleKar1991 no. The Venom movies at least got that Eddie and the symbiote were irresponsible jackasses that have the very occasional altruistic streak. If anything, to me, modern Spidey does not deserve Venom.
All the Lego games are fun, but the sequels didn't have as much open world. Idk, main story it obviously mostly linear... but for gold bricks you could do side stories whenever you wanted.
@racingraptor4758 agree! I've played all the single player ones, really loved the extras & 100% fountains. They do have glitches that are annoying but I still like them.
Honestly, I prefer the old Harley costume. The new one just feels like DC is trying to say "PLEEEEASE make porn of our character!" While simultaneously trying to not anger the feminists who would send any DC illistrator to the Shadow Realm just for making any female character slightly sexy. The old one was just a silly supervillain outfit. I like that.
its not the nebulous "feminists" that are butchering harley its the big wigs demanding a deadpool knock off cuz they dont get harley or deadpool or anything about anti heroes or anti villains
And the hilarious thing is the og suit is already sexy without showing anything, because it’s skin tight. Her assets are already there, there’s no need to put her in skimpy clothes when the og was perfectly fine
@xX_Knives_Xx Oh yeah I totally agree, I'm just sayin I personally prefer the old suit, not that feminists ruined it, cause that'd be silly. I fully blame the out of touch DC execs.
8:23 joker is not obsessed with the Batman, that’s a modern retcon. Joker was obsessed with crime, and being the one to commit the biggest crime with the most spectacle every time he did it. He was obsessed with being the CLOWN PRINCE OF CRIME.
@@saidi7975oh God yes. That is my favourite. Although, he did still have something of an obsession with Batman as part of his crime spectacle. As in the Laughing Fish, why would the great Joker be satisfied with confounding mere policemen? The Joker needs the Batman, nay, the Joker deserves the Batman! It is really tied up with Joker's sense of ego and drama. The greatest criminal needs the great detective to oppose him, and all that. It is all about the theatre. Joker'sobsession with Batman is more a symptom of his greater obsession with himself.
As a feminist, I like strong and driven female characters. However, as a feminist, I also recognize that not every woman is going to be a strong girlboss in the face of trauma. Some women do suffer, and I wish more comic media was okay with showing these imperfections.
It's a stupid narrative nowadays, feminists convinced people in Hollywood think every leading lady needs to be a girl boss. But if EVERY female lead is a girl boss, there is no variety. And it no one is special anymore, it's the norm. They've become the new basic bitches of Hollywood, like the Quirky High school girl trope
I would also add that nowdays writers dont want to write strong female characters well. Like we had Lara Croft for example. A strong adventurer who would kick your but no matter who you were. And if muscles wouldnt work she would just shred you with any firearm she would find. Yet she also had strugless, wasnt perfect and did not fear to be femine. Whille she was defo OP she was also relatable. Nowdays all the ,,girllboses" are drained from most if any human behaviors.
As an ex feminist, I dislike this "new" Harley Quinn bc it reminded me of the many crazy girls I encountered in the movement that made me get out of it. I really really can't stand Harley Quinn now, and it's such a shame bc she was amazing in the Arkham games and Batman the Animated Series. But I guess having a toxic female who thinks can't do no wrong because she is a girl is more interesting for the writers now😔
They brought back arkham Harley, she’s the one in suicide squad, they jsut completly ruined her character, arkham harley was a horrible person in the main games
@@Vitallor Arkham Harley is the closest we've gotten to classic since BTAS. The character was always a horrible person. She's not meant to be good. And SSKTJL Harley is nothing like Arkham Harley.
Batman isn’t defined by his parent’s being shot, and his grief from it. But he still can’t be Batman without that happening in the first place. The same thing applies to Harley, she isn’t defined by the abusive relationship with the Joker, but she can’t be the way she is without it happening.
Harley in THE Batman (2004) work great as well. Joker never physical abuse her like animated nor mentally tormented her but pull at her love sting to get her to get her to do bad thing. Joker treated her nicely as a means to fuel her to go down deeper into villainy but As Joker said to Harley "I only go along with your scheme because I find it assuming, but I'm still incharge" It the least toxic relationship between the two present. (And This Joker torment and break down Clayface
Agreed. Why can't we get Harley in her classic Jester outfit?? Instead, the movies and new comics would rather s**ualize her more than ever. And Harley is supposed to be insanely stuck on The Joker, at least at first. It's sad because Harley was once the most famous, most beloved female character in the Batman universe. Sorry, Catwoman.
At first I did wonder why people had a problem with Harley being independent from the Joker but now I understand, making her gross, using the character to write official NSFW fanfiction and having her hate/get over the joker isn't empowering Harley at all. Having her be with the Joker doesn't mean your okay with abusive relationships, it's what makes her a sympathetic villain.
Thank ya! I always see Harley as a strong character when she was with Joker. Yeah, he abuses her but she kicks his ass too! Which other member of his gang has the guts to do this? In some stories she was near on eye level with him. But now, she is always called "his victim". That she was manipulated by him and did all this cruel things cause she had no choice.Thats bullsh*t, she motivated him in many crimes. She loved the violence and the mayhem
Agreed. Honestly I've always believed Harley should be killed by the Joker. Like when she say's in BTAS "It's just a joke." and Batman replies "I hope your still laughing when the joke is on you." that's perfect foreshadowing for her fate as Joker's victim. She'd have been better off as a cautionary tale.
The Harley Quinn movie, the character wasn't just gross. She was inconsistent. Like were we supposed to think she was a loose cannon? Were we supposed to take her seriously? That movie wasn't a good look for Bats either, since I couldn't see Bruce putting up with her crap.
It's a weird and bad film that I don't get why it was made. It's set inbetween BTAS and Batman Beyond. There is many ideas that could have been done here like it could have been Batman's final mission before hanging up the cowl. Also the film didn't need Nightwing in it.
@@ClassicHarleyQuinn the fact that the stuff with Ivy and Fleuronic Man felt like there was actually a story there. Harleys story was random boning, chasing down random people, and a pointless musical montage
I think the character went away with Arleen Sorkin (the original voice and inspiration; I find Tara Strong’s baby voice insufferable, a parody really). Dini’s affection for the character was so strong and I think it’s what made her so special. But she isn’t his anymore, just another IP. The best reimagining of the character to me was in the Telltale Batman games which had an interesting twist on the Joker-Harley power dynamic. Even the Injustice games tried their hand at portraying her abuse before bowing to the mandate to make her an LOL-SO-RANDOM “hero” a la Deadpool.
The Injustice version of Harley is a little bit more believable as she had a bit more of a "battered wife" mentality where she knew the Joker wasn't good for her (she even had a daughter with him that she did everything within her power to hide from him), but like an addict in relapse keeps coming back to him. The way she is in Injustice 2 is a result of Bruce breaking the Joker's conditioning of her.
@@amusingmoose9924 Tara is incredibly talented, but her Harley is *awful*. Nails on chalkboard tone and terrible line delivery. She sounds like the mentally challenged offspring of Bubbles and Timmy Turner. Of the non-Arlene Sorkin voices (RIP) I find Hynden Walch to be the most decent substitute.
Harley Quinn really is the male Joker, in that she is the exactly the kind of Character toxic people choose to idolize rather then seeing them as a tragic warning.
There is no Harley Quinn anymore, only characters with the same name that doesn't resemble the fantastic multifaceted tragic funny and NEVER to be trusted character.
Thank you bringing up the animated movie "Batman & Harley Quinn." It was supposed to be set in the BTAS universe, but I was appalled by her depiction. Between that and now, I'm convinced Bruce Timm has been compromised. It's sad that David Ayer's Suicide Squad, which had a bad story and oversexualized Harley, is still the only movie that gets her backstory and psychology even a little bit right.
I think it's important to note that Bruce Timm wasn't the only writer on Batman. All the best episodes (also the original Arkham games) were written by Paul Dini.
They're trying too hard to make Harley into Deadpool without understanding that; 1) Even within his own comics, Deadpool is still ridiculous and hardly interacts with a lot of the more serious events that happen 2) Even with Wade's cancer and his own shit life prior, trying to 'lighten up' Harley doesn't work because her character still rises from domestic abuse that she keeps herself trapped in. In essence, that's shit ain't cute and you can't build up a 'YAS KWEEEEEN!!' character when there's no real divorce from her problems. She's still damaged from said abuse and has yet to actually recover from it, but this constant use of violence from her isn't a sign of strength or empowerment. It just shows that the Joker won in the end because Harley is still insane and still doesn't have any sort of morals or empathy for people around her. She's more or less just an obnoxious. horrifically damaged person but rather than being nauanced and going into the tragedy of that, DC keeps trying to sell this as something that 'women want to be' as if she's on the same level as Wonder Woman, Huntress, Zatanna, ect. ....NO. No she's not and seriously, it feels insulting that they're trying to sell an abuse victim as 'empowerment' when they have never allowed Harley to defeat her demons and recover from what Joker did to her. They're just selling us a hot mess of a person who is NOT a hero nor is she even an anti-hero. She is just a full on menace with 0 positive or relatable attributes if they keep ignoring the reasons she's even the way she is now. At least Deadpool in his own way does have a moral compass which is utterly WILD once you think about it. If they wanted Harley to be an anti-Hero but not a Deadpool clone, they could have let her keep the harlequin suit but have her develop more of her own path since she would be aware that Joker has damaged her and she can't fully go back to her career. DC has tons of well done morally grey characters, including female ones so I don't get it. What is it about Harley that has made them mess up SO BADLY? Or seriously, just go full villain with her instead of the whole will she/will she not anti-hero. Even as a so called anti-hero, she's still more villain than anything else. And for the love of god, *CHANGE THE OUTFIT!* I never liked the costume change when they brought it out for New 52 like a bajillion years ago yet they still keep clutching onto it. WHY?!
As a fan of Ol' Webhead, this comment hurt. They've actively killed Spider-Man since one more day. Even with crap that happened before him like the clone saga or sins past, they were nowhere near as bad as one more day and everything that has followed.
@@AceLM92 especially lately. For awhile, it looked like Nick Spenser was going to give us some hope to by undoing those wrongs, but the second he was off the book, it so went to hell again. If anything, what they've done with this Paul character is even worse.
@@AceLM92 that's what I said when he was announced, but he surprised me. He started reversing One More Day. Even to the point where Dr Strange commented on how Peter and MJ were breaking Maphisto's spell.
It's always that the character would be problematic for modern audiences.... Who are they? Where are they? Because i only ever hear the audience that love these characters constantly say please don't do that.
The biggest problem is how inconsistent she is now, all these different media versions of her are completely different from each other. Comics- She’s a hero and part of the bat family Show- she’s an antihero? And part of the bat family Movie- Villain and on her own Game- villain but seemingly hero now? Normal people have no idea what to think about her because of this. No other comic book character goes through anything like this.
Harley only works as a tragic side character. Before she met the Joker she was an unscrupulous person who was only interested in fame and money. Then she is conned, manipulated, and abused by Joker and went full menace. After the Joker there should be nothing but her in prison telling her shrink how much she screwed up by falling for him. Trauma and personality disorders are not enough to make her interesting outside of her dependency on the Joker. I kinda wish they killed her off before they did this Deadpool garbage to her.
1000% agree with this. So many people forget that Harley was a terrible person BEFORE she met Joker because most adaptations whitewash her history. Honestly think the only time she ever worked as a character outside of BTAS and Arkham was in Return of the Joker.
I'm not a huge Harley Quinn fan, but I do like what White Knight and Harleen did for her. I think the problem is DC is afraid to show us Harley's perspective because they think a popular character needs to be a "healthy" role model. Of course, I have no idea what definition they're using, because attempts to remake her have mostly been hot garbage, although the Harley Quinn animated series is passable some episodes.
@@wesleygriffiths8748 But people also forget she wasn’t an evil person before meeting the joker. Also when did she do terrible things before meeting him?
@@snackeater4990 but she was though? She slept and cheated her way to passing grades, and the only reason she got involved with the Joker to begin with was, not because she wanted to help him/ rehabilitate him like a decent person or an actual psychiatrist would, was explicitly because she wanted to exploit him for fame and glory. She just wound up having the rug pulled under her instead. And that’s not mentioning how in some continuities, she was somewhat involved in the general corruption in Arkham/ Blackgate before she became Harley Quinn.
I'm so relieved that it wasn't just me. I've always liked Harley since watching the original series and when I heard she was getting her own comic, I was really excited, one of my fav comics is Gotham City sirens and Harley was fantastic in it. They acknowledged her issues with the joker and showed how much sway he still had over here while also showing she could be her own character. But then I read the solo comic and I hated how murderous she was. It felt like the Harley I knew didn't even exist prior. I didn't get past issue 5. Since then I've never liked her direction and have also gotten weird looks when I say I liked her better when she was with the joker. You definitely do a better job of articulating why you feel the way you do than I did.
Harley been destroyed indeed but I wouldn’t call her the most destroyed, have you seen : Tim Drake Ice man Psylock Rachel summers Spider-man Jean Grey Jon Kent Barbara Gordon Batman Catwoman Poison ivy Gambit Rouge Wolverine And cyclops to name a few ?
Sadly old harley isn't marketable, the new one is. Everyone's taking note from disney and came into conclusion that they need to do this in order to sell toys, merchandise, etc. Todd phillips received backlash from a company making joker pajamas because of how they went with the movie.
She’s not though. Her comics don’t sell, her movies flopped and everyone hated her in SSKTJL. The only thing that still makes money with Harley is merch (clothes and figurines) which doesn’t translate to comic sales.
Ironically harley turned to crime because she didnt feel accepted in mainstream society, so the mainstream changing her into what they want so theyd feel more comfortable with her is doing exactly what she hated which lead her to the joker to start with
Harley Quinn is a cautionary tale which what makes her both tragic and interesting to watch. The moment she got her solo outing away from the Joker is the moment she lost all of what defined her. The fact that Bruce Timm wanted to do this take further cements that Paul Dini is the best writer for Harley.
Girl bosses can’t have flaws or weaknesses. This is why turning Harley into a girl boss was the worst thing they could do. Harley is literally obsessed with a man (joker) therefore she is a bechdel test nightmare. When everything has to preach “the message”, that character has to be retconned. As soon as I saw the trailer for suicide squad 2016, I knew cosplayers would put the final nail in the coffin
Telltale did the Harley without Joker thing wonderfully, i think. But honestly yes. Go girl. Edit: This is how i feel about how Joker's been overused and changed lately. When theyre done well, they can be amazing.. But its not super often it is.
I just argued with someone saying that the original harley in the 90s was misogynistic talking about the latex jester i find it so funny cuz shes alot worse now
Also the ivy and harley relationship is forced af back then their relationship had alot of depth and wasnt that healthy but now theyre just having chimichanga every second
This brought me out of the woodwork. Because I quite understand the pain, the frustration--I too just want to see the kid done right. So much so that I wrote a pilot for a live-action Harley Quinn show, an entire 8 episode season, based squarely on BTAS---pilot, pitch, and show bible--it's serious.
I think even DC knows the new situation on her nowadays. I remember seeing an animated Suicide Squad movie (forget its name), and after most of the team has been slaughtered, Waller sees Harley is still around and says "of course *she* survived."
WB/DC massively overestimated the appeal of Harley Quinn. In stretching beyond the limits of what this character was supposed to be, they’ve overexposed and made her less appealing as time went on. Some characters can get away with it, but she is not one of them.
They should’ve left Harley Quinn the f-ck alone after Batman The Animated Series! I hate and loathe all of the bastardized versions of her character more than anything else!
Arleen Sorkin was on Kevin Smith's "Fatman On Batman" podcast and told the story of her first table read as Harley. It's a really good episode if you can find it.
Another thing I hated was that in removing Joker from the equation, Harley's OTHER relationships suffered as a result. Namely her relationship with Ivy. Ivy's dynamic with Harley used to be her acting as a sort of safe place for Harley. Ivy hated the Joker for what he was doing to her friend and there was always sort of a tragic underbelly of Ivy not being enough for Harley to permanently leave the Joker for good. They are fully a romantic pairing now, but back in the day, the romance was kind of unrequited, making Ivy a way more interesting and vulnerable character because she knew that she couldn't fully snap Harley out of it. It was VERY interesting. Now they're sort of just sanitized and all the bite is gone. No more conflict between them that feels human and compelling. They're just your typical boring girlboss couple with none of the drama or tension that actually appeals to people.
Harley Quinn is my all time favorite character too, and I basically agree with your takes on her. My favorite versions of her are the BTAS/Arkhamverse. There's no Harley Quinn without the Joker and I don't the issue with that. Then she might ad well not have existed at all. She had such interesting depth before they started to ruin her and it's such a shame. More fans need to see/read her origin story and stop thinking it's that she fell in acid. The Harleen trilogy was iconic and I loved it. That's the Harley Quinn I'm familiar with. Harley's joker obsession and mental health issues. DC just does not get this character and should give her a long rest. There was no reason to turn her into female Deadpool. Comic Harley Quinn is not Harley Quinn at all. 2016 SS really did a number on her and ruined her like the new 52 did. The new 52 was the beginning of the end for Harley. Her personality, looks and meaning were completely erased. I miss her complexity. Thank you for all you do for our favorite fictional jester🤡🖤♥️🖤🤡
Not to mention the fact that, like it or not, there are people out there who fall in love with the "us against the world" mindset because they're inherently drawn to a chaotic lifestyle with others like them. Charles Manson exploited this in his followers due to the culture at the time promoting a carefree and psychedelic lifestyle free of authority and restraint. Most of them were drifters who had lost their drive to do the hard work of evaluating their life choices in favor of doing whatever felt good in the moment. Basically, he raised lambs for the slaughter so he would have to share "less" of the responsibility when the outside world finally came crashing down on him. And of course, so he could go out with a bang like the Joker always wanted.
It's 2024 and this character is the poster-child for what "modern audiences" do not want a strong woman to be. There can be no other female character besides the strong woman, since the only women that exist in reality are strong independent women that want to see themselves reflected back in their shows.
@@MLBlue30Strong male characters don't necessarily need to be like Arnold Schwarzenegger in the predator, but a layered person that we can understand and cheer for, could be a detective, could be a teacher, could be a firefighter, it doesn't matter what the character is as long as he has layers to him.
While we're at it, why don't we take away: - Green Lantern from Sinestro - Broom from Hellboy - Omniman from Invincible - Spider-Man from Venom (... oh, wait.)
@nameless.thelivingdock5711 He's saying they ruined Harley by removing her raison d'être. Doing the same to these other characters completely misses the point of their existence.
@@aldiascholarofthefirstsin1051 He used to get a lot of development but ever since a certain comic it's always either 20 something man struggling with money and girls or teenage vigilante. Like okay we get, he's relatable and all that, now show him actually getting out of that situation and evolve.
@@mhead1117 OG Lara does what she does for sport (her words). She raids tombs and goes on her adventures for the thrill of it, like an adrenaline junkie. Both of her parents are still alive, they simply aren't in her life because they disapproved of her decision to follow her passion for adventure in lieu of being a "proper" aristocratic lady, and she doesn't care about it. She operates alone, and keeps the artefacts she steals in a vault in her manor. She's a highly skilled gymnast, master handler of numerous firearms, martial arts expert, in addition to being a polyglot and knowledgeable of all sorts of ancient history and archaeology. Imagine Indiana Jones + James Bond with boobs.
@@maxsommers6843 i feel like most of the lara fans just miss her giant breasts Because basically thats all i ever hear about her in modern stuff that she’s flat and ugly
It must be frustrating for the modern audience writers to see someone like Harley explode in popularity. A female that is nothing like anything they've ever wanted to write. So it's not surprising that at some point they'd get a hold of her and rewrite her.
It comes from the fact that DC doesn’t understand Harley… AT ALL. Like they don’t understand the relationship with the joker: “he’s a psychopath! He can’t have a girlfriend!!”, and they can’t have her be abused or that’s “problematic”, so the make her Deadpool with tits
I tend to contrast Harley Quinn with Jinx from League of Legends a lot. Jinx started out as just a sexy crazy lady with guns, but Arcane changed her and fleshed her out into a powerful depiction of an underprivileged child with schizophrenia and depression. On the inverse Harley started out as a good cautionary tale of dependency, obsession, and toxic relationships, but in an attempt to cater to broader audiences has slowly devolved into a sexy crazy lady with guns.
Comic Books, D&D, and now Video Games is why we should no longer feel shame when accused of Gatekeeping. If you don't keep the Gates, the Gatecrashers will destroy the Property.
@@CJnemitDEI and ,,inclusive" mob which excluded everyone. Same kinda happended at Warhammer 40k althought it caused so much outrage, so many people were fired at GW and sales droped by over 90% almost immidetly caused GW to play it safe as it was... For nowcat least...
This is why I find the White Knight universe version of Harley to be such a breath of fresh air. That version still feels similar to what she originally was and isn’t being injected with a lot of appalling/negative traits that other modern comics do. They kept her past with Joker but also built on that. She realized Joker only ever had eyes for Batman, so she left after hiring a replacement (who is similar to her modern counterpart). Years later, she develops a drug to “cure” the Joker and starts a relationship with Jack Napier (who is trying to redeem himself). She ends up marrying him, but not before they both learn that he’ll never be fully cured. She winds up getting pregnant with Jack’s babies and shoots the Joker to protect them from him. I know I’ve already spoiled a lot but the third chapter of the White Knight universe is something new and different that I was scared of before, but ended up loving. You just have to see it to judge. But that’s just one diamond hidden underneath an avalanche of garbage. I was never a fan that animated show they gave her, and I even gave it a decent try. And that show also butchered other characters but every time I complained, everyone would disagree with me. And although they never accused me of being sexist or misogynist, the vibes from them told me plenty. I’m hoping Lady Gaga’s portrayal of Harley will be another gem, and not just another bad attempt to modernize her.
The harley quinn show lost all favor with me (which wasn't a lot and means jack shit) when they made Ivy cheat on Kite Man, and then Dr. Freeze went full-blown rebound like a day or something after his death, the fandom glorifed the fucking cheating and so from then i just dont like it fuck that show and especially fuck that fandom
Batman: White Knight is good. Batman: Curse of The White Knight is ok but things have started getting funky. Batman: Beyond The White Knight is trash and didn't need to happen after just 2 chapters. I don't like anything done in that universe either.
@@ClassicHarleyQuinn, well, Beyond the White Knight mainly focuses on Joker, his daughter Jackie, and Terry McGinnis, so if they're not your favorite characters, I can understand. I personally loved Beyond the White Knight, though, even bought the hardback version. The Bruce/ Harley romantic subplot was interesting, but I can see why it wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea. The series worked as a wholesome spoof of Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker, though.
I’m just imagining the writers thinking “hmm. Joker is a pretty popular character people love. We can’t have a psychotic killer be a role model for young boys. Lets have him realize he was a bad person and become a good guy”
One of the best-written versions of Harley Quinn was in the 2004 animated series, where she was a TV personality who got an online degree and is more of a pop psychologist which gives a better reason why a psychologist was so easily manipulated. I think my issue with modern Harley is how afraid a lot of writers are of ever make her seem vulnerable or even really that flawed the story and characters kind of bend around her to make her come off better than she really is. Like dude I get it, you should have sympathy for people like Harley but the thing is Harley was a psychologist and at least 28 when she met Joker, so her being very easily manipulated doesn't come off as tragic when they try to make her some genius therapist, it makes her seem like a bad dangerous person.
I do think The Batman's portrayal of Harley added to her character. She was also smarter, only getting involved with the Joker for a few episodes instead of becoming his full-on sidekick and quickly realizing how dangerous he was. That said, though, BTAS created the Harley Quinn-Joker relationship, and mostly defined it. Harley is a super dependent lovesick punching bag that the Joker tolerates. She started out as a psychiatrist intern at Arkham, but she had low confidence and ulterior motives from the get-go and Joker knew he could manipulate her from the moment he met her. She does get some character development as the show progresses, however. We find out she's a good psychological manipulator, probably why she went into psychology to begin with, and she reveals to Joker that she's been making friends with the other supervillains. This pays off when she finds a friend and ally in the reclusive Poison Ivy and later Catwoman, who help her get more comfortable with the idea of being away from the Joker.
Nah, people okay her being without him . Just because the story with him was first it doesn't mean it needs to stay that , dude study psychology in how people think !!
I'm a 53 year old, straight white caveman... Your instincts are spot on... I named my cat Harley 25 years ago because she was a shelter kitty. But, they have utterly destroyed the depth, nuance and empathy I once had with Harley Quinn... I truly appreciate your insight and truth in this video. Well done, and you hit the nail right on the head. I too mourn for all our great characters being torn down by these supposed culture warriors. Take care.
Harley's personality and history has been hollowed out and stuffed with shallow, corporate-approved, "wacky girl boss" tropes because she became mainstream. Now she's a horrible person who is somehow also supposed to be a hero at the same time because she's just mascot meant to appeal to whoever DC wants her to at the moment instead of a consistent character. Deadpool is annoying and gross at worst, but at least the writers know when to cut it out and give him some sincere moments.
Couldn't agree more. Hoorah for Classic Harley Quinn! She was always ripe for character growth in that form. Starting her off as a bad person is fine, since you can build an arc off of that, but it's notable that she wasn't *an irredeemable monster.* Throughout _B: TAS_ she's clearly been brainwashed by Joker, but there's a goofball decency behind her rough edges. Redeeming her and possibly becoming a hero felt like a logical direction for her. Heck, I'd argue you could even have her reflecting Batman's sense of wanting to heal some of his villains, albeit she's trying to do that with *Joker,* which is never going to work no matter how much she wants it to. _B: TAS_ felt like it was building towards something like that. To me, at least. But, just like you said, it became established in the comics and other media that now she'd always had villainous tendencies and the Joker just brought them out of their shell. She's now just as much a monster as he is and she's all the worse for it.
The part where you mentioned "She could be for Kindergarteners" made me realize- Holy shit. If they kept her true to her original character and had to put her in those DC Super Hero Girls cartoons they would have had an amazing opportunity to put a poignant message in a kids' show. It wouldn't have been easy by any means, but adapting a message about dependacy and abusive relationships for a young audience would have been such a public service.
I’m imagining a universe in which the x-men movies adapted magneto to the silver screen as a teen hero single-handedly leading the fight against the Germans in WW2. The most interesting characters have flaws, baggage, trauma, and the capacity to make mistakes, to learn, and to evolve. The least interesting characters are the least vulnerable with the least to learn and the least potential for growth.
The Injustice comics actually did a great job of evolving Harley Quinn independent of Joker yet still being haunted by the relationship The Birds of Prey TV series did it decently as well.
Absolutely not at all. Injustice Harley is probably the most egregious example of how writers give or remove agency from her when it’s convenient. She helps joker pull off his plan to kill Lois, Jimmy, and millions in metropolis, but where as Joker gets killed by Superman, Harley gets to join the insurgency. Hell she literally was placed under protection of the League immediately after jokers death even though Superman literally never goes after her
@@roachofdoom1234 To be fair all Harley was interested in was the Submarine and I don't think she knew of the whole plan hence why she joins Batman so fast after realizing how messed up it is and the devastation. Edit: Superman went after everyone including Harley.
The most annoying thing about Harley is DC not knowing how to capitalize on her properly. She's popular, but they don't want her to be fully evil so they make her an antihero. Then they panic about her relationship with Joker and keep making a point of her breaking away from Joker and how everything was his fault yet she's somehow the mastermind and he stole all her ideas... This constant confusion with what to do with her along with her being overused in everything really ruins her which sucks 'cause she's one of my favorites
In her orgin they always or at least almost always is a character that acknowledged she needed to leave Joker....and she'd eventually get back with him anytime she leaves him. Really liked the Injustice version of Harley.
I think it’s funny how one of the most prominent fixtures of Harley’s personality back in the day was her tendency to use the fact that her story was tragic against people. She was always appealing to Batman’s empathetic side by sighting her manipulation at the hands of the Joker, but it was never genuine. She was never going to change, and she didn’t want to. It’s almost like the character duped the masses into believing her BS, and they’ve completely missed the point of what Harley was supposed to be.
@@JohnDoe-uf3lj he's one of the inspirations for my channel. Though I haven't done much in the way of reviewing.gaming streams have been taking up the majority of it.
You couldn't have expressed this better for me. I talk to my friends about this more often than I should lol. Harley used to be cute, sympathetic, trying her best. Most of the time she fell short because she made up her own parameters no one else agreed to. I loved her because she was earnest and a rare example of a manic pixie who wasn't annoying. Literally every point I just mentioned was dismantled later on. And now OG Harley fans have been almost completely replaced with people who want every character to be a pansexual imp. 😩
That thumbnail says it all and so does everything you said in this video! I was disgusted (yet again) when I heard about what they're doing with her in Caped Crusader. What an insult to the character and to BTAS. I hope Joker 2 brings this character back to her routes entirely.
Tbh this exactly reflect a lot of my thought. I'm a bit bad at explaining stuff but I hope the meaning gets across but I also feel like rather than be 'Jokers girlfriend' and that's it, she'd now just 'Ivys girlfriend' like, she's still just reduced to the relationships she has and nothing else.
Great video, great explanation. I too am a fan of classic Harley and made a video on this. But you made a great point about her original past being problematic so in order to solve that they made her grossly promiscuous as though that is some empowering righteous cause. The reality is exactly what you spelled out. They don't understand her and they never did. I blame Jimmy Palmiotti completely for the mess we have today. He is the one that "reinvented" her in the New 52 run. The Arkham games did an awesome job with her and I'm glad we have them. Also there is a book (novel) called "Mad Love" that Paul Dini wrote a couple years ago. It's pretty good so far! I'm not finished yet. Anyway, I could go on and on. I appreciate you and your video and bringing this message out there. We want Harley, in her original form, back.
There's all kinds of spin offs in comics, so if they wanted to tell a story about Harley being able to break the cycle and get over the joker, it would've at least made more sense to have original Harley find a way to realistically do that - maybe even while still expressing feelings that she simply has to fight - rather than having to change her character completely in order to do it. Like, if her character has to be changed, the point is kind of being made that original Harley wouldn't have ever been able to do that on her own, Pretty self-defeating. Also, good point about how her mental illness was originally portrayed as genuine trauma and misfortune, while now it's being glorified, and without needing any background for it. People who accuse others of being supports of toxic relationships should reexamine their perspectives on mental illness.
I would argue Luke Skywalker holds that title but hey he is the voice of the Joker. Harley going away from the Joker is an interesting story but not if it is the ONLY story.
Literally just off of the first 6 min i know u like Harley and you understand her... thank you for seeing it all.. grew up with animated series lol im 27 now but i remember seeing all the episodes and just enjoying the themes and messages of the show... Mr.Freeze, Clayface, Harley, and even old-school penguin... so many layers and tragedies...so growing up seeing all that helped me understand the world is such a mixed place but there is always good to be done.. hence why batman is my favorite and i will Miss Kevin Conroy with all my heart and Arleen Sorkin... the epside where harley gets freedom and thinks everyone is trying to send her back is my favorite harley episode... and the ending always gets me...and my god dont even get me started on Mad love... i legit have never felt so concerned for a character and her well being like i did harley... thats why i was ok with her becoming good....because of all the horrible shit she endured...even if she may have done bad herself but... no one deserves to be treated like trash.
She traded in an abusive relationship with the Joker for one with the writers…
How poetically meta-ironic
It's ironic right
Her not having The Joker in her backstory is so weird, becuase she was ment to show just how much of a monster The Joker was.
He destroyed her, and turned what was a respected doctor, into a mentally unhinged groupie who now blindly takes abuse and helps destroy lives.
She's a tragic character, but also a monster, created by an even bigger monster.
She doesn't need him and they can't be in a toxic one sided relationship if you want to call it that forever... That's glorying toxic and abusive relationships
@@Fighttilltheend0136Taaahhhxic
@@Fighttilltheend0136 It’s her backstory. Without it she’s a fundamentally different person. Thats not glorifying a toxic relationship, it’s recognizing it’s not the same character. People, unfortunately, are made from their trauma. Without it, those same people would objectively be different.
@@ProGamer-hg3mb I think that's a bot
Telltale anyone?
Harley is not Deadpool.
Harley is not romanticizing toxic relationships.
Harley is not simply eye-candy.
Harley is Harley.
👏🙌
the characters who look like dc deadpool are:
lubo
deathstroke
. Is it hard to dc to see this?
Couldn’t they have used Lobo to fit that bill?
Billion dollar company needs to make money so harley will be anything DC needs to be in order for them to stay afloat
@@missmeme3946I think is because she wears red and black lol
Back in 2015 I applied for a job at a comic book store. The girl who they interviewed before me got asked "Who's your favorite comic book character?" She said Harley Quinn, "Because she and Joker are just like me and my boyfriend!" The comic shop owner paused and asked "Should we call the cops for you?" And she was completely confused why he asked that.
Ye
That's very funny!
Some women are crazy.
See, this is why I’m always more curious what happens after the stories only told for the “interesting” parts on UA-cam. What happened after it was explained to her?
Awesome response!!!!
The way Harley is now you completely forget she used to be a doctor.
I take it you did not read the comic where she did... favors to get her doctorite because she had the hots for criminals.
@@NameIsDoc no, I watched TAS where she is a doctor that got turned by Joker, not this dormant trauma they fill her with in retcons
@@bruceleeds7988 yeah I know I was just pointing out the horrible way thry demeaned her because thry literally don't understand the tragedy behind the old Harley
The best version of this is the one in the Harleen comic, where they make the only retcon to her backstory I agree with--she didn't date her professors for good grades; that was just a rumor.
@@KB-zq9nyI love how she was done in the Harleen trilogy and Mad Love
I'm picturing Harley, Luke Skywalker and Velma in the basement of a church having a support group for characters who have been mishandled. Galadriel enters, sits down and starts bawling her eyes out.
Along with Bobby Drake, Hercules, Indiana Jones, Lara Croft and so many others. It's a big support group.
A church basement frankly isn’t large enough a venue to hold a support group for recently deconstructed and abused characters. They would need to hire out Madison Square Garden.
And Scrappy Doo.
Galadriel: "Those people *wanted* me to take the One Ring. WTF!"
@@pennysanchez7656nah fxck Scrappy. 😂
Yes!!! Preach it! I want the old harley back,the one who told batman "nice guys like you should never have a bad day" after he told her "i had a bad day once" and handed her a pink dress.
Literally, her character defining moment for me. 😊 She can become better person, a hero, even. Wish DC would let her.
@@DoctorInk20 but if they do how will she be a martyr for feminism? XD
@@MARStheFORSAKEN I'm sure they'll find another figurehead to despoil. 😂 Just stay away from the cute clown woman.
Yes!! This scene still holds a very special place in my heart, it's so precious
Likewise!
The one who was kooky, but also could be kind and thoughtful in her own way.
The current (per)version of Harley has been dumbed down so that her personality is just "I'm quirky, and I hate all men! WAAAAAAAAHMMMAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNN POOOOWWWWEEEERRRRRR!"
Three words: Seagate Amusement Park.
For those who don't know, in the Arkhamverse, there was an oil baron called Edward Burke who wanted to build an amusement park for his ill-stricken five year old daughter, Katie Burke. Burke knew Harley as psychiatrist Harleen Quinzel and talked to her about Katie drawing ideas for the park so Harley allowed him to make contact with a close associate of her named Jack White, who assisted in the creation of the park. What Burke didn't know however is that Jack White was an alias of the Joker, who wanted a new base of operation and decided to use the park. During the construction of the park, Jack referred Katie to Penelope Young, a doctor at Arkham who didn't know Jack was the Joker, who treated Katie with Titan.
Now about the Titan. In the Arkhamverse, Titan was a compound created by Young to make patients more resilient both physically and mentally so they could endure more brutal treatments in the asylum but the Joker wanted to use it to create an army of monsters to take over and destroy Gotham. In essence, it's basically Bane's Venom on steroids (which is logical considering Young had captured Bane and extracted the Venom in his body to create the new compound). Your body mutates so drastically your bones burst out of it in a gory manner, you completely lose your mind and there's a high chance you die from a massive and very painful heart attack. That's the refined and finished version. Katie was treated with an unrefined and very much not perfected version. Bit by bit.
Once the park was finished, Jack/Joker had Katie outright killed with an *overdose* of Titan and she died in indescribable pain. Edward was beyond heart broken and had nothing left to live for. So Jack, through Harley, gave him some pills so he could commit suicide. Except what they didn't tell him is the pills contained Joker Venom/Smilex. Burke poisoned himself with them and literally died laughing in excruciating pain.
So to make it clear, in the Arkhamverse, the Joker murdered an innocent man and his five years old ill-stricken daughter in horrible fashion because he wanted to get a new base for himself. And Harley willingly and knowingly helped him and had a direct hand in it. (For the record, this is not even the worse thing the Joker has done in this universe, the school bus and the baptism being even worse).
This is only one of the problems Kill the Justice League has but it's one of the biggest. The game paints Harley as her modern, zany anti-hero self. Except in the Arkhamverse, she's an almost absolute monster who willingly and gleefully committed atrocities almost no other version of the character did and unlike the other versions, the Joker didn't have to manipulate or threaten her, she willingly assisted him and did awful stuff on her own. Even after his death, she chose to take over his gang and continue her life as a crime lord in his name. And SSKTJL wants us to root for THAT Harley.
Holy sh*t! That is utterly reprehensible! I had never heard of that story! Can't believe that they would just sweep that under the rug!!!! What an absolute monster!
It's also very important to note that Harley was already a pretty bad person before she even met the Joker in the Arkhamverse. As a psychiatrist under Hugo Strange she blackmailed Alberto Falcone for criminal purposes. She also betrayed the hippocratic oath changing Calendar Man's insanity report to advance her career.
Claiming that Harley was brainwashed and a victim of the Joker is already a pretty shaky claim, but the Arkhamverse is literally the worst continuity to do so.
Yeah, Harley should at least have to face some comeuppance before she's able to take the title of hero. I would have liked it if her character arc were something like Joker does something really bad, bad enough to snap Harley out of her infatuation, and instead of continuing to help him, she sabotages him and helps his victims, would probably work best if it's kids. Batman takes notice and helps rescue her.
She tries to restart the life she had before she met the Joker, but Amanda Waller sabotages her and gets her sent to Blackgate, where she's recruited to Suicide Squad and really begins her hero training, you know, something cohesive that at least tries to make sense?
@@KB-zq9nyarkam harley should be killed by some random angry father, actually that would be a amazing story, have some rando go and kill each of the bad guys who are truly irredeemable and in the end get sent to like black gate for a year and yet he's hailed a hero, dude refused to harm innocents, went only after the most repgunent and irredeemable monster and at worst knocked a few of the others out with afew broken bones, batman does worse then that with normal goons, hell harley could actually try maniplute him only for him to shoot her head off without so much a word, he isnt looking for fame, he isnt looking for recognition, he just wants to put the biggest monsters in the grave so that gothem and the world can sleep a bit more soundly and he can put his childs soul to rest
That's messed up.
Harley Quinn is a tragic villain, not a cool cookey anti hero.
Also these male comic book writers who claim to be feminists seem to really like putting Harley in these gross and weird sexual situations. Keep in mind I am a straight man and I like me some eye candy, but those scenarios you described were worse than anything before that happened with her and the Joker!
So well said
Feminism is man code for sexual predator. It was Joss Whedon’s calling card, and if you actually bother to watch Buffy, Angel, Firefly, and Dollhouse, it’s pretty obvious what Whedon means.
Yeah, it just feels really weird. I mean, a good example of a character who has plenty of eye candy moments is Poison Ivy. She's, from her very concept, designed to have sex appeal be a part of her gimmick. But writers, good ones anyway, are able to a) do it tastefully and b) understand that the way they do it should never stray from the rules written for the character. The whole reason she's the femme fatale narratively is because it actively feeds back into her plant gimmick. The flower that's so gorgeous you can't help but reach out your hand to touch it but once you do, the hidden thorns cut into you and poison that laid on them rushes through your veins to do you in.
She can still be an anti hero, she just has to start out as the villain. It’s the entire point of her arc
@@cosmicspacething3474 killing a bunch of toddlers, torture a man to the point of breaking him and destroy a dad and his daughter just bc she and the Joker wanted a new criminal base is not something an anti-hero would do.
Even new characterisation of Harley can't be described as an "anti-hero" or a tragic villainess who was pushed to the end by circumstances.
All of her instances, new or old, have always shown her as a morally dubious psychiatric who turned up to be a villain.
The only difference now is that the writers and the public want to justify her just because "girl boss" and "we love our lesbian queen!".
It's so painfully funny how we can't have now real villainess that are bad and won't deserve a redemtion because people can't phantom that a woman can do evil things and be a bad person😩
Outside of the Arkham games Harley hasn't worked as a character since Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker. They want the character to be an anti hero who hangs out with Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman but have no interest of actually building to that. They want her to be a strong independent character but also want her to be the eternal victim of some else. She doesn't work because they don't want to actually work on her.
Harley in THE Batman (2004) work great as well.
Joker never physical abuse her like animated nor mentally tormented her but pull at her love sting to get her to get her to do bad thing. Joker treated her nicely as a means to fuel her to go down deeper into villainy but As Joker said to Harley "I only go along with your scheme because I find it assuming, but I'm still incharge"
It the least toxic relationship between the two present. (And This Joker torment and break down Clayface
The best I’ve seen of her was in injustice 2. It’s years after the joker was killed by Superman and she realized the error of her ways and decides to be more of an antihero. Oliver queen, hal Jordan basically the league that has split from Superman doesn’t trust her because she’s still crazy so Batman and cat woman kinda reign her in. It’s the best version of the antihero Harley and not an “I don’t need no man” she is scared of joker that’s how they put him in the game one fight between her and joker after getting hit by a LOT of fear toxin. I still have some issues (usually changes in mannerisms because of the suicide squad movie.) but I still think that’s the best in the games
Also cause they seemingly just copies Marvels on Deadpool, but doesn’t understand WHY Deadpool actually works for this character type and Harley doesn’t
@@bloodysimile4893
Took the words out of my comment
You’re forgetting about the Batman/tmnt crossover.
Harleys entire foundation as a character was that she was an insecure woman who deluded herself into obsessive love with the only person who she thought showed her love and respect.
She's not a girl boss. She's a domestic abuse victim
She and the joker are literally modern versions of Punch and Judy.
I hate what they've done to Harley, I used to watch BTAS and even as a kid, I loved how complicated a character she was. Then they completely changed the design and made her something I didn't recognize, I hate modern day Harley.
Preach👏
Me too
Yeah, new 52 tried to make her more like Deadpool but without the things that make him an interesting character, as a antihero Deadpool has done some fucked up shit but due to have having a op healing factor, Deadpool can be physically punished multiple times by the author's as a form of comedic karma. Harley doesn't have that, Harley can do bad things without physical or personal consequences as even if she dies, Poison Ivy will bring her back somehow, she doesn't even have to pay for her crimes because she is always signing up to the suicide squad to get rid of her jail time. In a recent issue of Batman we see Zur En Arrh invade Harley's house and arrest her, Harley tries to explain how she is a hero now and how she has changed, but Zur En Arrh doesn't care about that and that Harley needs to pay for what she did before. Hope they can make something interesting about this because I don't see Harley as a hero and she barely counts as an anti hero, she killed a bunch of children with bombs to get the joker's attention once, she needs to face consequences for all the things she did wrong
The new Harley in Batman Caped Crusader will follow the same vain, but without the Joker ever having existed. It's less spunk but more back to the roots, so I dunno why she called out Caped Crusader cause it's literally made by Bruce Timm. Y'know co-creator of BTAS
@@MisterSlimee if there's no Joker, how can she be "back to her roots"?
I tried to explain this point online a while ago. I got blasted by everyone for being sexist, romanticizing an abusive relationship (even though I described her and the Joker as unhealthy) and being against "character development."
haven't we all?
Don´t forget "You are homophobe!". A classic line of those people when you say you prefer Harley with Joker and not with Ivy
@@shred79for me I don’t see Ivy in a romantic relationship because Ivy would say I am in a relationship with Mother Earth
Ye
I usually put my controversial Harley opinions in the Joker fandom spaces as opposed to the Harley Quinn fandom spaces, because Harley Quinn fandom spaces sound toxic and unwelcoming.
I'm with the rest of you, though. I don't think it's wrong for us to want more realism in the characters' stories.
It's unfortunate that we went from Harley Quinn being a twisted yet tragic villain fans loved into this Deadpool copy, "YaS qUeEn" girlboss anti-hero we keep getting for a decade now that makes the character FAR worse than how she was originally portrayed from BTAS, when she was a villain
Funnily enough, that’s kinda what I hear happened to Deadpool. Initially he was a twisted and somewhat tragic whose comedy was a mask for his depression. Now they’ve doubled down on his wacky, zany antics and mostly discarded his manic depression and loss of composure.
@@a_fine_edition2746 yup. Right after 2008. In fact, very rare mini series would use Wade's actual fleshed out character while the main books decide that writing Memepool was better .. go figure.
@@a_fine_edition2746so u want him depressed?
@Moodboard39 I’m just saying that before, Deadpool used to have some real nuance and a reason behind his comedy beyond being wacky and goofy. It was a mask to hide his very real psychological issues. But a lot of the time it feels that’s been forgotten.
They almost did the same to Deadpool but Ryan Reynolds saved him
And ironically voiced Detective Pikachu so…
@@pennysanchez7656 What does that have to do with anything?
@@FierceDIO Because they're both done by Ryan Reynolds and also because.....why the hell not? It's fun to mention Pokemon: Detective Pikachu.
@@pennysanchez7656ok
@@pennysanchez7656That was completely irrelevant to the discussion though.
Harley Quinn was originally written as a Cautionary Tale, this idea of turning her into an "empowered woman" is just plain stupid.
Harley Quinn is no different than a Ted Bundy fangirl, a Jeffery Dahmer fangirl and a Charles Manson girlfriend.
Bingo. It's like she has a chronic case of hybristophilia.
Separating Harley from the Joker or not having that factored in to her character is like Mr.Freeze without his wife Nora
Or like the Venom movies without Spiderman. It's sorta the recogniseable character, the movies are fun on a very surface level, but without that core component of the character's origin they are not ever going to go beyond the surface level and flesh out the character in any meaningful way.
I mean that was mr freezes first 33 years of existence as a character but I get what you're saying.
Ya'll do realize the new Harley in Caped Crusader is created by Bruce Timm. The guy that originally created Harley in BTAS. The guy knows his stuff, so stop being stuck up with the original. Be open to new iterations of the character, be open to creativity instead of milking the same cow dry. A therapist Harley Quinn, that's less goofy but more calculated and uses her patients information against them in a manipulative manner would go hard. Being stuck in nostalgia land on how a character is "supposed" to be is what feeds into this Hollywood trend of repeating the same formula over and over. This new Harley is doing us a favor
@@MisterSlimee Character stagnation is a pretty big issue in comics and a new take on what's old is generally fun to explore
though there comes the question of "how far can you change a character until you've created an OC?" characters are a cliché, a trope, something easily marketable, something that helps us define them
if you do a complete 180 of them but keep the name, are they really the same character? you could argue the Batman of today isn't the Batman from 1939 due to the many differences he had in his first apparances to present day
and at times, a current iteration of a character ends up also stagnant too or just annoying for the general audience, it's kind of why most episodes of shows aren't written by just one person
@@AleKar1991 no. The Venom movies at least got that Eddie and the symbiote were irresponsible jackasses that have the very occasional altruistic streak. If anything, to me, modern Spidey does not deserve Venom.
I really enjoyed the comic miniseries “Harleen” because it remembered that Harley is a tragic figure.
👏
Been replaying the original LEGO Batman. Harley is friggin’ adorable there
Loved all three of them
Haven’t played 2, but have gotten 1, 3 and LEGO DC Super Villains very close to 100%, with LDCSV being my favorite of the three I have played
All the Lego games are fun, but the sequels didn't have as much open world. Idk, main story it obviously mostly linear... but for gold bricks you could do side stories whenever you wanted.
LEGO are literally like the best games there are no matter what they adapt. Even Di$ney fanfic sequels are bearable in LEGO edition.
@racingraptor4758 agree! I've played all the single player ones, really loved the extras & 100% fountains. They do have glitches that are annoying but I still like them.
Harley with no relation to the joker is like a superman that hates humanity.
Honestly, I prefer the old Harley costume. The new one just feels like DC is trying to say "PLEEEEASE make porn of our character!" While simultaneously trying to not anger the feminists who would send any DC illistrator to the Shadow Realm just for making any female character slightly sexy. The old one was just a silly supervillain outfit. I like that.
I think Asylum was what started this trend.
its not the nebulous "feminists" that are butchering harley its the big wigs demanding a deadpool knock off cuz they dont get harley or deadpool or anything about anti heroes or anti villains
They definitely sexualised her in the older outfit too
And the hilarious thing is the og suit is already sexy without showing anything, because it’s skin tight. Her assets are already there, there’s no need to put her in skimpy clothes when the og was perfectly fine
@xX_Knives_Xx Oh yeah I totally agree, I'm just sayin I personally prefer the old suit, not that feminists ruined it, cause that'd be silly. I fully blame the out of touch DC execs.
8:23 joker is not obsessed with the Batman, that’s a modern retcon. Joker was obsessed with crime, and being the one to commit the biggest crime with the most spectacle every time he did it. He was obsessed with being the CLOWN PRINCE OF CRIME.
Ah yes, 70-90's pre No Man's Land Joker, how I miss thee...
@@saidi7975oh God yes. That is my favourite. Although, he did still have something of an obsession with Batman as part of his crime spectacle. As in the Laughing Fish, why would the great Joker be satisfied with confounding mere policemen? The Joker needs the Batman, nay, the Joker deserves the Batman!
It is really tied up with Joker's sense of ego and drama. The greatest criminal needs the great detective to oppose him, and all that. It is all about the theatre. Joker'sobsession with Batman is more a symptom of his greater obsession with himself.
As a feminist, I like strong and driven female characters. However, as a feminist, I also recognize that not every woman is going to be a strong girlboss in the face of trauma. Some women do suffer, and I wish more comic media was okay with showing these imperfections.
I agree. Girl boss characters are okay, but they shouldn't be the only female characters, as they really don't even fit certain female characters.
It's a stupid narrative nowadays, feminists convinced people in Hollywood think every leading lady needs to be a girl boss. But if EVERY female lead is a girl boss, there is no variety. And it no one is special anymore, it's the norm. They've become the new basic bitches of Hollywood, like the Quirky High school girl trope
I would also add that nowdays writers dont want to write strong female characters well. Like we had Lara Croft for example. A strong adventurer who would kick your but no matter who you were. And if muscles wouldnt work she would just shred you with any firearm she would find. Yet she also had strugless, wasnt perfect and did not fear to be femine. Whille she was defo OP she was also relatable. Nowdays all the ,,girllboses" are drained from most if any human behaviors.
Ironically it was femanism that killed all the popular female characters in fiction and shambled the industry from making any more.....shame...
As an ex feminist, I dislike this "new" Harley Quinn bc it reminded me of the many crazy girls I encountered in the movement that made me get out of it.
I really really can't stand Harley Quinn now, and it's such a shame bc she was amazing in the Arkham games and Batman the Animated Series. But I guess having a toxic female who thinks can't do no wrong because she is a girl is more interesting for the writers now😔
In conclusion DC should focused more on the condiment king 😅
"The Conceptual Condiment King!!!"
There is still time for them to ketchup.
I unironically agree with this
@@Sidharthavicious🥁
@@Sidharthavicious good one
Bring back 90s and Arkham Harley.
💯👏
They brought back arkham Harley, she’s the one in suicide squad, they jsut completly ruined her character, arkham harley was a horrible person in the main games
@@Vitallor Arkham Harley is the closest we've gotten to classic since BTAS. The character was always a horrible person. She's not meant to be good. And SSKTJL Harley is nothing like Arkham Harley.
Amen!
@@notyouraverageharleyquinnstan idk I think BTAS harley was kinda redeemable
Becoming a symbol was the worse thing to happen to her.
Batman isn’t defined by his parent’s being shot, and his grief from it. But he still can’t be Batman without that happening in the first place.
The same thing applies to Harley, she isn’t defined by the abusive relationship with the Joker, but she can’t be the way she is without it happening.
Harley in THE Batman (2004) work great as well.
Joker never physical abuse her like animated nor mentally tormented her but pull at her love sting to get her to get her to do bad thing. Joker treated her nicely as a means to fuel her to go down deeper into villainy but As Joker said to Harley "I only go along with your scheme because I find it assuming, but I'm still incharge"
It the least toxic relationship between the two present. (And This Joker torment and break down Clayface
Harley in the Batman 2004 is massively underrated and deserves to be more recognized than she is. After all Paul Dini created that version too.
Agreed. Why can't we get Harley in her classic Jester outfit?? Instead, the movies and new comics would rather s**ualize her more than ever. And Harley is supposed to be insanely stuck on The Joker, at least at first.
It's sad because Harley was once the most famous, most beloved female character in the Batman universe. Sorry, Catwoman.
Personally want to see Harley trying to treat the Joker. He is her patient after all.
I think the new Joker movie seems to be taking this route.
At first I did wonder why people had a problem with Harley being independent from the Joker but now I understand, making her gross, using the character to write official NSFW fanfiction and having her hate/get over the joker isn't empowering Harley at all.
Having her be with the Joker doesn't mean your okay with abusive relationships, it's what makes her a sympathetic villain.
This💯👏
Thank ya! I always see Harley as a strong character when she was with Joker. Yeah, he abuses her but she kicks his ass too! Which other member of his gang has the guts to do this? In some stories she was near on eye level with him. But now, she is always called "his victim". That she was manipulated by him and did all this cruel things cause she had no choice.Thats bullsh*t, she motivated him in many crimes. She loved the violence and the mayhem
@@shred79 amen to this as well💯💯👏
Agreed. Honestly I've always believed Harley should be killed by the Joker. Like when she say's in BTAS "It's just a joke." and Batman replies "I hope your still laughing when the joke is on you." that's perfect foreshadowing for her fate as Joker's victim. She'd have been better off as a cautionary tale.
@@hordakprime6172 agreed. I think Batman Beyond: Return Of The Joker was a great time to kill her off
The Harley Quinn movie, the character wasn't just gross. She was inconsistent. Like were we supposed to think she was a loose cannon? Were we supposed to take her seriously?
That movie wasn't a good look for Bats either, since I couldn't see Bruce putting up with her crap.
It's a weird and bad film that I don't get why it was made. It's set inbetween BTAS and Batman Beyond. There is many ideas that could have been done here like it could have been Batman's final mission before hanging up the cowl.
Also the film didn't need Nightwing in it.
@@ClassicHarleyQuinn I honestly feel like Bruce Timm had a swamp thing story and was turned down.
@@DarthBobCat Genuine question, what makes think it was originally a Swamp Thing story?
@@ClassicHarleyQuinn the fact that the stuff with Ivy and Fleuronic Man felt like there was actually a story there. Harleys story was random boning, chasing down random people, and a pointless musical montage
@@ClassicHarleyQuinn I probably am wrong, but at the very least that part of things had ideas and some care behind it.
I think the character went away with Arleen Sorkin (the original voice and inspiration; I find Tara Strong’s baby voice insufferable, a parody really). Dini’s affection for the character was so strong and I think it’s what made her so special. But she isn’t his anymore, just another IP. The best reimagining of the character to me was in the Telltale Batman games which had an interesting twist on the Joker-Harley power dynamic. Even the Injustice games tried their hand at portraying her abuse before bowing to the mandate to make her an LOL-SO-RANDOM “hero” a la Deadpool.
The Injustice version of Harley is a little bit more believable as she had a bit more of a "battered wife" mentality where she knew the Joker wasn't good for her (she even had a daughter with him that she did everything within her power to hide from him), but like an addict in relapse keeps coming back to him. The way she is in Injustice 2 is a result of Bruce breaking the Joker's conditioning of her.
I’m so happy every time I see someone that hates Tara’s Harley voice. I don’t hate Tara, but her Harley voice is so unpleasant.
@@amusingmoose9924 Tara is incredibly talented, but her Harley is *awful*. Nails on chalkboard tone and terrible line delivery. She sounds like the mentally challenged offspring of Bubbles and Timmy Turner. Of the non-Arlene Sorkin voices (RIP) I find Hynden Walch to be the most decent substitute.
Tara strong is an awful person especially lately
Harley Quinn really is the male Joker, in that she is the exactly the kind of Character toxic people choose to idolize rather then seeing them as a tragic warning.
There is no Harley Quinn anymore, only characters with the same name that doesn't resemble the fantastic multifaceted tragic funny and NEVER to be trusted character.
Thank you bringing up the animated movie "Batman & Harley Quinn." It was supposed to be set in the BTAS universe, but I was appalled by her depiction. Between that and now, I'm convinced Bruce Timm has been compromised.
It's sad that David Ayer's Suicide Squad, which had a bad story and oversexualized Harley, is still the only movie that gets her backstory and psychology even a little bit right.
I think it's important to note that Bruce Timm wasn't the only writer on Batman. All the best episodes (also the original Arkham games) were written by Paul Dini.
You guys are gonna have to accept one day that Margot Robbie WANTED to have Harley portrayed that way and even chose the costume
They're trying too hard to make Harley into Deadpool without understanding that;
1) Even within his own comics, Deadpool is still ridiculous and hardly interacts with a lot of the more serious events that happen
2) Even with Wade's cancer and his own shit life prior, trying to 'lighten up' Harley doesn't work because her character still rises from domestic abuse that she keeps herself trapped in.
In essence, that's shit ain't cute and you can't build up a 'YAS KWEEEEEN!!' character when there's no real divorce from her problems. She's still damaged from said abuse and has yet to actually recover from it, but this constant use of violence from her isn't a sign of strength or empowerment. It just shows that the Joker won in the end because Harley is still insane and still doesn't have any sort of morals or empathy for people around her. She's more or less just an obnoxious. horrifically damaged person but rather than being nauanced and going into the tragedy of that, DC keeps trying to sell this as something that 'women want to be' as if she's on the same level as Wonder Woman, Huntress, Zatanna, ect.
....NO. No she's not and seriously, it feels insulting that they're trying to sell an abuse victim as 'empowerment' when they have never allowed Harley to defeat her demons and recover from what Joker did to her. They're just selling us a hot mess of a person who is NOT a hero nor is she even an anti-hero. She is just a full on menace with 0 positive or relatable attributes if they keep ignoring the reasons she's even the way she is now.
At least Deadpool in his own way does have a moral compass which is utterly WILD once you think about it. If they wanted Harley to be an anti-Hero but not a Deadpool clone, they could have let her keep the harlequin suit but have her develop more of her own path since she would be aware that Joker has damaged her and she can't fully go back to her career. DC has tons of well done morally grey characters, including female ones so I don't get it. What is it about Harley that has made them mess up SO BADLY?
Or seriously, just go full villain with her instead of the whole will she/will she not anti-hero. Even as a so called anti-hero, she's still more villain than anything else. And for the love of god, *CHANGE THE OUTFIT!* I never liked the costume change when they brought it out for New 52 like a bajillion years ago yet they still keep clutching onto it. WHY?!
I'm not sure what's worse, how DC treats Harley in the comics, or how Marvel treats Spider-Man.
As a fan of Ol' Webhead, this comment hurt. They've actively killed Spider-Man since one more day. Even with crap that happened before him like the clone saga or sins past, they were nowhere near as bad as one more day and everything that has followed.
@@AceLM92 especially lately. For awhile, it looked like Nick Spenser was going to give us some hope to by undoing those wrongs, but the second he was off the book, it so went to hell again. If anything, what they've done with this Paul character is even worse.
@StarvingArtist600 I heard of his run, but I doubt the guy who gave us Secret Empire could have been that good.
@@AceLM92 that's what I said when he was announced, but he surprised me. He started reversing One More Day. Even to the point where Dr Strange commented on how Peter and MJ were breaking Maphisto's spell.
@@StarvingArtist600 I would almost be intrigued if I did not know it's still at this current crap that's going on
It's always that the character would be problematic for modern audiences.... Who are they? Where are they? Because i only ever hear the audience that love these characters constantly say please don't do that.
The biggest problem is how inconsistent she is now, all these different media versions of her are completely different from each other.
Comics- She’s a hero and part of the bat family
Show- she’s an antihero? And part of the bat family
Movie- Villain and on her own
Game- villain but seemingly hero now?
Normal people have no idea what to think about her because of this. No other comic book character goes through anything like this.
Where as the Joker is fairly consistent
All female characters must be “strong”.
Yep! Women see themselves as perfected works of art simply because they are women.
Harley only works as a tragic side character. Before she met the Joker she was an unscrupulous person who was only interested in fame and money. Then she is conned, manipulated, and abused by Joker and went full menace. After the Joker there should be nothing but her in prison telling her shrink how much she screwed up by falling for him. Trauma and personality disorders are not enough to make her interesting outside of her dependency on the Joker. I kinda wish they killed her off before they did this Deadpool garbage to her.
1000% agree with this. So many people forget that Harley was a terrible person BEFORE she met Joker because most adaptations whitewash her history. Honestly think the only time she ever worked as a character outside of BTAS and Arkham was in Return of the Joker.
I'm not a huge Harley Quinn fan, but I do like what White Knight and Harleen did for her. I think the problem is DC is afraid to show us Harley's perspective because they think a popular character needs to be a "healthy" role model. Of course, I have no idea what definition they're using, because attempts to remake her have mostly been hot garbage, although the Harley Quinn animated series is passable some episodes.
@@wesleygriffiths8748 But people also forget she wasn’t an evil person before meeting the joker. Also when did she do terrible things before meeting him?
@@snackeater4990 but she was though? She slept and cheated her way to passing grades, and the only reason she got involved with the Joker to begin with was, not because she wanted to help him/ rehabilitate him like a decent person or an actual psychiatrist would, was explicitly because she wanted to exploit him for fame and glory. She just wound up having the rug pulled under her instead.
And that’s not mentioning how in some continuities, she was somewhat involved in the general corruption in Arkham/ Blackgate before she became Harley Quinn.
@@wesleygriffiths8748 Huh, thanks for letting me know. It’s unfortunate she wasn’t allowed to be an intelligent doctor
I'm so relieved that it wasn't just me. I've always liked Harley since watching the original series and when I heard she was getting her own comic, I was really excited, one of my fav comics is Gotham City sirens and Harley was fantastic in it. They acknowledged her issues with the joker and showed how much sway he still had over here while also showing she could be her own character. But then I read the solo comic and I hated how murderous she was. It felt like the Harley I knew didn't even exist prior. I didn't get past issue 5. Since then I've never liked her direction and have also gotten weird looks when I say I liked her better when she was with the joker. You definitely do a better job of articulating why you feel the way you do than I did.
Harley been destroyed indeed but I wouldn’t call her the most destroyed, have you seen :
Tim Drake
Ice man
Psylock
Rachel summers
Spider-man
Jean Grey
Jon Kent
Barbara Gordon
Batman
Catwoman
Poison ivy
Gambit
Rouge
Wolverine
And cyclops to name a few ?
You forgot Luke Skywalker
and alan scott they ruined him and his beautiful family
Oh that got me in my soul
Even Joker and Batman are having it rough now. Ever since the Tom King wedding arc the Batman universe has been a mess.
Luckily I stopped reading modern comics a decade ago so have avoided most of this.
Sadly old harley isn't marketable, the new one is. Everyone's taking note from disney and came into conclusion that they need to do this in order to sell toys, merchandise, etc. Todd phillips received backlash from a company making joker pajamas because of how they went with the movie.
So, new Harley is marketable as Pikachu, right?
@@pennysanchez7656 not as popular, but marketable.
She’s not though. Her comics don’t sell, her movies flopped and everyone hated her in SSKTJL. The only thing that still makes money with Harley is merch (clothes and figurines) which doesn’t translate to comic sales.
Not saying her IP is making bank but at the very least safely marketable
Old Harley is very Marketable in the right hands.
Ironically harley turned to crime because she didnt feel accepted in mainstream society, so the mainstream changing her into what they want so theyd feel more comfortable with her is doing exactly what she hated which lead her to the joker to start with
Harley Quinn is a cautionary tale which what makes her both tragic and interesting to watch. The moment she got her solo outing away from the Joker is the moment she lost all of what defined her. The fact that Bruce Timm wanted to do this take further cements that Paul Dini is the best writer for Harley.
Yea but even Dini has gone weird these says as shown in the 30th anniversary special.
@ClassicHarleyQuinn and Bruce Timm would sometimes go into his….ahem….horny side sometimes.
@@ClassicHarleyQuinn See also: the Mad Love novel he co-wrote a few years ago.
I really like Harley in Batman TAS but in pretty much every other medium I find her irritating to the point now I actively avoid anything with her in.
Girl bosses can’t have flaws or weaknesses. This is why turning Harley into a girl boss was the worst thing they could do.
Harley is literally obsessed with a man (joker) therefore she is a bechdel test nightmare. When everything has to preach “the message”, that character has to be retconned.
As soon as I saw the trailer for suicide squad 2016, I knew cosplayers would put the final nail in the coffin
Telltale did the Harley without Joker thing wonderfully, i think. But honestly yes. Go girl.
Edit: This is how i feel about how Joker's been overused and changed lately. When theyre done well, they can be amazing.. But its not super often it is.
Agreed. Loved her in that game
I just argued with someone saying that the original harley in the 90s was misogynistic talking about the latex jester i find it so funny cuz shes alot worse now
Also didnt she make a s3x joke abt poison ivys size even tho she was a child 💀
Also the ivy and harley relationship is forced af back then their relationship had alot of depth and wasnt that healthy but now theyre just having chimichanga every second
Now*
@raveYou can just edit your comment instead of doing that.nsolos4076
A lot of women who say her earlier depictions were misogynistic don't know what misogynistic is because they've never experienced it.
This is like making a version of Batman without the dead parents.
People would alright with that. People ain't always going to like what u like ..
This brought me out of the woodwork. Because I quite understand the pain, the frustration--I too just want to see the kid done right. So much so that I wrote a pilot for a live-action Harley Quinn show, an entire 8 episode season, based squarely on BTAS---pilot, pitch, and show bible--it's serious.
Good for you! 🎉
I think even DC knows the new situation on her nowadays. I remember seeing an animated Suicide Squad movie (forget its name), and after most of the team has been slaughtered, Waller sees Harley is still around and says "of course *she* survived."
WB/DC massively overestimated the appeal of Harley Quinn. In stretching beyond the limits of what this character was supposed to be, they’ve overexposed and made her less appealing as time went on. Some characters can get away with it, but she is not one of them.
They should’ve left Harley Quinn the f-ck alone after Batman The Animated Series! I hate and loathe all of the bastardized versions of her character more than anything else!
Who said she need to remain the same ? Dude , relax and hop off.. people not like being her villain. Different perspectives
Yup. Sucks. On the plus side, you did a great job of covering all the main points.
we live in the worse timeline.
Arleen Sorkin was on Kevin Smith's "Fatman On Batman" podcast and told the story of her first table read as Harley. It's a really good episode if you can find it.
Another thing I hated was that in removing Joker from the equation, Harley's OTHER relationships suffered as a result. Namely her relationship with Ivy. Ivy's dynamic with Harley used to be her acting as a sort of safe place for Harley. Ivy hated the Joker for what he was doing to her friend and there was always sort of a tragic underbelly of Ivy not being enough for Harley to permanently leave the Joker for good. They are fully a romantic pairing now, but back in the day, the romance was kind of unrequited, making Ivy a way more interesting and vulnerable character because she knew that she couldn't fully snap Harley out of it. It was VERY interesting. Now they're sort of just sanitized and all the bite is gone. No more conflict between them that feels human and compelling. They're just your typical boring girlboss couple with none of the drama or tension that actually appeals to people.
Harley Quinn is my all time favorite character too, and I basically agree with your takes on her. My favorite versions of her are the BTAS/Arkhamverse. There's no Harley Quinn without the Joker and I don't the issue with that. Then she might ad well not have existed at all. She had such interesting depth before they started to ruin her and it's such a shame. More fans need to see/read her origin story and stop thinking it's that she fell in acid. The Harleen trilogy was iconic and I loved it. That's the Harley Quinn I'm familiar with. Harley's joker obsession and mental health issues. DC just does not get this character and should give her a long rest. There was no reason to turn her into female Deadpool. Comic Harley Quinn is not Harley Quinn at all. 2016 SS really did a number on her and ruined her like the new 52 did. The new 52 was the beginning of the end for Harley. Her personality, looks and meaning were completely erased. I miss her complexity. Thank you for all you do for our favorite fictional jester🤡🖤♥️🖤🤡
Not to mention the fact that, like it or not, there are people out there who fall in love with the "us against the world" mindset because they're inherently drawn to a chaotic lifestyle with others like them. Charles Manson exploited this in his followers due to the culture at the time promoting a carefree and psychedelic lifestyle free of authority and restraint. Most of them were drifters who had lost their drive to do the hard work of evaluating their life choices in favor of doing whatever felt good in the moment. Basically, he raised lambs for the slaughter so he would have to share "less" of the responsibility when the outside world finally came crashing down on him. And of course, so he could go out with a bang like the Joker always wanted.
@@shannonmcelroy8454 💯👏
Every classic Harley Quinn fan needs to share this video!
It's 2024 and this character is the poster-child for what "modern audiences" do not want a strong woman to be. There can be no other female character besides the strong woman, since the only women that exist in reality are strong independent women that want to see themselves reflected back in their shows.
Isnt that only fair though? All men want is strong male characters they can see reflected back at them...
I also think I don’t think we should be popularizing a abusive relationship tho
@@MLBlue30no! That sounds pretty pathetic honestly, because strong male characters are none-like those dudes
@@MLBlue30Strong male characters don't necessarily need to be like Arnold Schwarzenegger in the predator, but a layered person that we can understand and cheer for, could be a detective, could be a teacher, could be a firefighter, it doesn't matter what the character is as long as he has layers to him.
@MLBlue30 Whenever someone uses words like "all" and "everyone"...they're automagically wrong.
The face when being an abuse victim is deemed too problematic.
While we're at it, why don't we take away:
- Green Lantern from Sinestro
- Broom from Hellboy
- Omniman from Invincible
- Spider-Man from Venom (... oh, wait.)
@nameless.thelivingdock5711 He's saying they ruined Harley by removing her raison d'être. Doing the same to these other characters completely misses the point of their existence.
In all honesty at this point Eddie Brock in the comics is a better character than Peter Parker, 'cause they allow him to get development.
@aldiascholarofthefirstsin1051
I agree. Hell of a lot better than whatever Sony calls "Venom".
@@aldiascholarofthefirstsin1051 He used to get a lot of development but ever since a certain comic it's always either 20 something man struggling with money and girls or teenage vigilante. Like okay we get, he's relatable and all that, now show him actually getting out of that situation and evolve.
@@thefunnyhatter7390 Sony Venom is still more faithfull than whatever Insomniac did.
harely is getting the lara croft treatment ( character assassination.)
What happened to Lara?
Genuine question I've only played the new trilogy, and they were pretty solid to me.
You're playing the modern toned down one. Go back to the remastered OG collection and you'll see a vast difference.
@@mhead1117 OG Lara does what she does for sport (her words). She raids tombs and goes on her adventures for the thrill of it, like an adrenaline junkie. Both of her parents are still alive, they simply aren't in her life because they disapproved of her decision to follow her passion for adventure in lieu of being a "proper" aristocratic lady, and she doesn't care about it. She operates alone, and keeps the artefacts she steals in a vault in her manor. She's a highly skilled gymnast, master handler of numerous firearms, martial arts expert, in addition to being a polyglot and knowledgeable of all sorts of ancient history and archaeology. Imagine Indiana Jones + James Bond with boobs.
@@maxsommers6843 i feel like most of the lara fans just miss her giant breasts
Because basically thats all i ever hear about her in modern stuff that she’s flat and ugly
@@maxsommers6843chances say she's about to me on an exploration she won't ever finish (*´ω｀*) death is not an escape
It must be frustrating for the modern audience writers to see someone like Harley explode in popularity. A female that is nothing like anything they've ever wanted to write. So it's not surprising that at some point they'd get a hold of her and rewrite her.
I'm gonna say it The Harley Quinn show sucks. Its everything wrong with Modern Harley.
It comes from the fact that DC doesn’t understand Harley… AT ALL. Like they don’t understand the relationship with the joker: “he’s a psychopath! He can’t have a girlfriend!!”, and they can’t have her be abused or that’s “problematic”, so the make her Deadpool with tits
yeaa
I tend to contrast Harley Quinn with Jinx from League of Legends a lot. Jinx started out as just a sexy crazy lady with guns, but Arcane changed her and fleshed her out into a powerful depiction of an underprivileged child with schizophrenia and depression. On the inverse Harley started out as a good cautionary tale of dependency, obsession, and toxic relationships, but in an attempt to cater to broader audiences has slowly devolved into a sexy crazy lady with guns.
Comic Books, D&D, and now Video Games is why we should no longer feel shame when accused of Gatekeeping. If you don't keep the Gates, the Gatecrashers will destroy the Property.
I must be out of the loop, I understand comics and video games, but what happened with D&D?
The Gate guard is a important position, you will be the first to face the wave of arrows and the first to see the approaching army.
@@CJnemitDEI and ,,inclusive" mob which excluded everyone. Same kinda happended at Warhammer 40k althought it caused so much outrage, so many people were fired at GW and sales droped by over 90% almost immidetly caused GW to play it safe as it was... For nowcat least...
This is why I find the White Knight universe version of Harley to be such a breath of fresh air. That version still feels similar to what she originally was and isn’t being injected with a lot of appalling/negative traits that other modern comics do. They kept her past with Joker but also built on that. She realized Joker only ever had eyes for Batman, so she left after hiring a replacement (who is similar to her modern counterpart). Years later, she develops a drug to “cure” the Joker and starts a relationship with Jack Napier (who is trying to redeem himself). She ends up marrying him, but not before they both learn that he’ll never be fully cured. She winds up getting pregnant with Jack’s babies and shoots the Joker to protect them from him. I know I’ve already spoiled a lot but the third chapter of the White Knight universe is something new and different that I was scared of before, but ended up loving. You just have to see it to judge.
But that’s just one diamond hidden underneath an avalanche of garbage. I was never a fan that animated show they gave her, and I even gave it a decent try. And that show also butchered other characters but every time I complained, everyone would disagree with me. And although they never accused me of being sexist or misogynist, the vibes from them told me plenty.
I’m hoping Lady Gaga’s portrayal of Harley will be another gem, and not just another bad attempt to modernize her.
Yeah, White Knight was a breath of fresh air. DC doesn't know their audience. They apparently think Harley mainly appeals to thirteen-year-old girls.
@@KB-zq9ny tell me about it. The stuff that they have her say in today’s media just makes me cringe with embarrassment
The harley quinn show lost all favor with me (which wasn't a lot and means jack shit) when they made Ivy cheat on Kite Man, and then Dr. Freeze went full-blown rebound like a day or something after his death, the fandom glorifed the fucking cheating and so from then i just dont like it fuck that show and especially fuck that fandom
Batman: White Knight is good. Batman: Curse of The White Knight is ok but things have started getting funky. Batman: Beyond The White Knight is trash and didn't need to happen after just 2 chapters. I don't like anything done in that universe either.
@@ClassicHarleyQuinn, well, Beyond the White Knight mainly focuses on Joker, his daughter Jackie, and Terry McGinnis, so if they're not your favorite characters, I can understand.
I personally loved Beyond the White Knight, though, even bought the hardback version. The Bruce/ Harley romantic subplot was interesting, but I can see why it wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea. The series worked as a wholesome spoof of Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker, though.
I’m just imagining the writers thinking “hmm. Joker is a pretty popular character people love. We can’t have a psychotic killer be a role model for young boys. Lets have him realize he was a bad person and become a good guy”
And people might be okay with That. Unless u think people should think like you ????
Than u got ur head in the sand
One of the best-written versions of Harley Quinn was in the 2004 animated series, where she was a TV personality who got an online degree and is more of a pop psychologist which gives a better reason why a psychologist was so easily manipulated. I think my issue with modern Harley is how afraid a lot of writers are of ever make her seem vulnerable or even really that flawed the story and characters kind of bend around her to make her come off better than she really is.
Like dude I get it, you should have sympathy for people like Harley but the thing is Harley was a psychologist and at least 28 when she met Joker, so her being very easily manipulated doesn't come off as tragic when they try to make her some genius therapist, it makes her seem like a bad dangerous person.
I don't like that show or that version Much to be honest. The writing is ok but those character designs are awful in my opinion.
@@ClassicHarleyQuinn hard disagree
Another reason why The Batman 2004 is underrated.
@@GreayWorks To be fair it's probably because BTAS is what I'm used to.
I do think The Batman's portrayal of Harley added to her character. She was also smarter, only getting involved with the Joker for a few episodes instead of becoming his full-on sidekick and quickly realizing how dangerous he was.
That said, though, BTAS created the Harley Quinn-Joker relationship, and mostly defined it. Harley is a super dependent lovesick punching bag that the Joker tolerates. She started out as a psychiatrist intern at Arkham, but she had low confidence and ulterior motives from the get-go and Joker knew he could manipulate her from the moment he met her.
She does get some character development as the show progresses, however. We find out she's a good psychological manipulator, probably why she went into psychology to begin with, and she reveals to Joker that she's been making friends with the other supervillains. This pays off when she finds a friend and ally in the reclusive Poison Ivy and later Catwoman, who help her get more comfortable with the idea of being away from the Joker.
Harley not having the joker in her backstory is like bruce waynes parents never getting shot.
Nah, people okay her being without him . Just because the story with him was first it doesn't mean it needs to stay that , dude study psychology in how people think !!
I could understand the perception. Keep urs
I'm a 53 year old, straight white caveman... Your instincts are spot on... I named my cat Harley 25 years ago because she was a shelter kitty. But, they have utterly destroyed the depth, nuance and empathy I once had with Harley Quinn... I truly appreciate your insight and truth in this video. Well done, and you hit the nail right on the head. I too mourn for all our great characters being torn down by these supposed culture warriors. Take care.
Harley's personality and history has been hollowed out and stuffed with shallow, corporate-approved, "wacky girl boss" tropes because she became mainstream. Now she's a horrible person who is somehow also supposed to be a hero at the same time because she's just mascot meant to appeal to whoever DC wants her to at the moment instead of a consistent character.
Deadpool is annoying and gross at worst, but at least the writers know when to cut it out and give him some sincere moments.
Couldn't agree more. Hoorah for Classic Harley Quinn!
She was always ripe for character growth in that form. Starting her off as a bad person is fine, since you can build an arc off of that, but it's notable that she wasn't *an irredeemable monster.*
Throughout _B: TAS_ she's clearly been brainwashed by Joker, but there's a goofball decency behind her rough edges. Redeeming her and possibly becoming a hero felt like a logical direction for her. Heck, I'd argue you could even have her reflecting Batman's sense of wanting to heal some of his villains, albeit she's trying to do that with *Joker,* which is never going to work no matter how much she wants it to. _B: TAS_ felt like it was building towards something like that. To me, at least.
But, just like you said, it became established in the comics and other media that now she'd always had villainous tendencies and the Joker just brought them out of their shell. She's now just as much a monster as he is and she's all the worse for it.
As someone who's favorite character is Cassandra Cain, I feel your pain.
Harley just became the obnoxious self insert vessel for writers and like Deadpool got massively overused and over emphasized.
the only Harley that had a good relationship with the Joker if I recalled was with The White Knight and The Batman(2008).
The part where you mentioned "She could be for Kindergarteners" made me realize- Holy shit. If they kept her true to her original character and had to put her in those DC Super Hero Girls cartoons they would have had an amazing opportunity to put a poignant message in a kids' show. It wouldn't have been easy by any means, but adapting a message about dependacy and abusive relationships for a young audience would have been such a public service.
I’m imagining a universe in which the x-men movies adapted magneto to the silver screen as a teen hero single-handedly leading the fight against the Germans in WW2.
The most interesting characters have flaws, baggage, trauma, and the capacity to make mistakes, to learn, and to evolve. The least interesting characters are the least vulnerable with the least to learn and the least potential for growth.
The Injustice comics actually did a great job of evolving Harley Quinn independent of Joker yet still being haunted by the relationship
The Birds of Prey TV series did it decently as well.
Anything after Years 1-5 is trash though and just full of retcons.
Absolutely not at all. Injustice Harley is probably the most egregious example of how writers give or remove agency from her when it’s convenient. She helps joker pull off his plan to kill Lois, Jimmy, and millions in metropolis, but where as Joker gets killed by Superman, Harley gets to join the insurgency. Hell she literally was placed under protection of the League immediately after jokers death even though Superman literally never goes after her
@@roachofdoom1234 To be fair all Harley was interested in was the Submarine and I don't think she knew of the whole plan hence why she joins Batman so fast after realizing how messed up it is and the devastation.
Edit: Superman went after everyone including Harley.
@@roachofdoom1234 i could’ve sworn Harley was sort of ignorant of what Joker was doing
The most annoying thing about Harley is DC not knowing how to capitalize on her properly. She's popular, but they don't want her to be fully evil so they make her an antihero. Then they panic about her relationship with Joker and keep making a point of her breaking away from Joker and how everything was his fault yet she's somehow the mastermind and he stole all her ideas...
This constant confusion with what to do with her along with her being overused in everything really ruins her which sucks 'cause she's one of my favorites
In her orgin they always or at least almost always is a character that acknowledged she needed to leave Joker....and she'd eventually get back with him anytime she leaves him.
Really liked the Injustice version of Harley.
I feel the same way but with Poison Ivy & I blame Harley Quinn 😂😭
I think it’s funny how one of the most prominent fixtures of Harley’s personality back in the day was her tendency to use the fact that her story was tragic against people. She was always appealing to Batman’s empathetic side by sighting her manipulation at the hands of the Joker, but it was never genuine. She was never going to change, and she didn’t want to. It’s almost like the character duped the masses into believing her BS, and they’ve completely missed the point of what Harley was supposed to be.
I think the irony of Harley's original origin is that she is an unscrupulous conniving character that got outplayed.
To quote bobsheaux. "The joker is Harleys entire reason for being."
I too am sick of seeing this character bastardized.
💯
My man dropping the bobsheaux reference wow. Ain’t heard that name in awhile
@@JohnDoe-uf3lj he's one of the inspirations for my channel. Though I haven't done much in the way of reviewing.gaming streams have been taking up the majority of it.
Modern Harley Quinn feels like, her writers think having a mental illness is "qUiRkY~".
or maybe that's just me.
not me being tempted to write my own batman story to fix her
Same, unfortunately, without the rights, I won't even bother.
You couldn't have expressed this better for me. I talk to my friends about this more often than I should lol.
Harley used to be cute, sympathetic, trying her best. Most of the time she fell short because she made up her own parameters no one else agreed to. I loved her because she was earnest and a rare example of a manic pixie who wasn't annoying.
Literally every point I just mentioned was dismantled later on.
And now OG Harley fans have been almost completely replaced with people who want every character to be a pansexual imp. 😩
The Batman had my personal favorite Harler(or Jokely) reletionship. The mad love was mutal.
That thumbnail says it all and so does everything you said in this video! I was disgusted (yet again) when I heard about what they're doing with her in Caped Crusader. What an insult to the character and to BTAS. I hope Joker 2 brings this character back to her routes entirely.
Tbh this exactly reflect a lot of my thought.
I'm a bit bad at explaining stuff but I hope the meaning gets across but I also feel like rather than be 'Jokers girlfriend' and that's it, she'd now just 'Ivys girlfriend' like, she's still just reduced to the relationships she has and nothing else.
Great video, great explanation. I too am a fan of classic Harley and made a video on this. But you made a great point about her original past being problematic so in order to solve that they made her grossly promiscuous as though that is some empowering righteous cause.
The reality is exactly what you spelled out. They don't understand her and they never did. I blame Jimmy Palmiotti completely for the mess we have today. He is the one that "reinvented" her in the New 52 run.
The Arkham games did an awesome job with her and I'm glad we have them. Also there is a book (novel) called "Mad Love" that Paul Dini wrote a couple years ago. It's pretty good so far! I'm not finished yet.
Anyway, I could go on and on. I appreciate you and your video and bringing this message out there. We want Harley, in her original form, back.
Jimmy Palmilotti *is* to blame. David Ayer put the icing on the cake.
DC doesn't want to make the audience uncomfortable, even though the old Harley is MEANT TO MAKE YOU UNCOMFORTABLE.
There's all kinds of spin offs in comics, so if they wanted to tell a story about Harley being able to break the cycle and get over the joker, it would've at least made more sense to have original Harley find a way to realistically do that - maybe even while still expressing feelings that she simply has to fight - rather than having to change her character completely in order to do it. Like, if her character has to be changed, the point is kind of being made that original Harley wouldn't have ever been able to do that on her own, Pretty self-defeating.
Also, good point about how her mental illness was originally portrayed as genuine trauma and misfortune, while now it's being glorified, and without needing any background for it. People who accuse others of being supports of toxic relationships should reexamine their perspectives on mental illness.
I would argue Luke Skywalker holds that title but hey he is the voice of the Joker.
Harley going away from the Joker is an interesting story but not if it is the ONLY story.
Literally just off of the first 6 min i know u like Harley and you understand her... thank you for seeing it all.. grew up with animated series lol im 27 now but i remember seeing all the episodes and just enjoying the themes and messages of the show... Mr.Freeze, Clayface, Harley, and even old-school penguin... so many layers and tragedies...so growing up seeing all that helped me understand the world is such a mixed place but there is always good to be done.. hence why batman is my favorite and i will Miss Kevin Conroy with all my heart and Arleen Sorkin... the epside where harley gets freedom and thinks everyone is trying to send her back is my favorite harley episode... and the ending always gets me...and my god dont even get me started on Mad love... i legit have never felt so concerned for a character and her well being like i did harley... thats why i was ok with her becoming good....because of all the horrible shit she endured...even if she may have done bad herself but... no one deserves to be treated like trash.