Carlton Haney, Jimmy Martin, and Bluegrass Pythagoras
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
- Legendary bluegrass festival promoter Carlton Haney explains (his version of) the Pythagorean theorem and its relevance (as he sees it) to bluegrass. Jimmy Martin attempts to steal the show back with little success.
03:26 "a double ahg-men-ed foworth" - solid gold
I can watch this over and over all day long and never would get tired of it. These boys knew bluegrass!
It doesn't frustrate you? Lol
Carlton frustrates me lol
Bill Harrell said three things in life didn’t pay: crime, Jim Clark, and Carlton Haney.
My favorite part might be the list of reasons Monroe was the best man he ever knew:
-Didn’t smoke
-Didn’t drink
-Didn’t swear
-Didn’t drink buttermilk
....and never lied, and if any man can prove it , I'll give them a hundred-thousand dollars.
You stole my name, or maybe I stole yours, or maybe we stole it from former first baseman for the Texas Ranger or William Clark lewis' exploring companion.
I went to my great uncle Jimmy Martins house growing up and I remember Ol Pete. He had a lot of dogs . He made me cry laughing everytime I saw Jimmy. He was the BEST !!!!!! My dad got his first bird dog from Jimmy
rhonda lawson: My birth name is Martin.
Did you ever know John Paul Rhea?He was my grandad.He was the man in the 20/20 vision music video wearing the blue Ford Glass Plant hat.They coon hunted a lot together and Jimmy always said they were somehow kin.I don't know but they both were from Sneedville.
Lord Lord.
"Gibson oughta harer you!" Reminds me of my Grandma.
It's called entertainment.
I wish these guys were still around, this is great.
This is probably one of the most amazing music history videos I’ve ever been privileged, and I mean that from the bottom of my heart privileged to watch !! God bless these gentlemen !!
I love this! Jimmy tried to cut in, but Carlton was having none of it.
😅
Lord Lord
Jimmy only had ONE Fault.....
he was THE BEST OF BLUEGRASS MUSIC...
if you don't believe him, just ask him, He'll tell you...
🤣 They knew what they heard & Jimmy certainly knew how to do it, but neither of them could really explain it. Now, I want to be clear.......Both of these guys are legends of bluegrass music in their own respective areas. Their knowledge was extensive & they were genuine to the core!!!!!!! Their explanations about music theory..............well, they're definitely entertaining!!!!!!!
This is bluegrass gold!!!!!!! One of the funniest things I've seen or heard in my 26 yrs in this music!!!!!!! It's like 2 race horses fighting for position, BUT..............neither one knows exactly where the finish line is!!!!!!! Was this in the early 90's?
1998
This is pure gold! Thanks for putting this out into the universe!
That is an OG keeping real. This is the definition of AUTHENTIC. The heat he is packing is called Charisma. Rich, he is, with the gift of gab with seemingly spontaneous well practice tales. Timing, and content. He is what popular means, spins words that create gravity that turns bystanders into spectators.
Carlton 'S TOOTH WAS IN A HIGHER OCTAVE...
how many TiiiIIIIIIIImmes
I lived beside carlton Haney. Also helped home on a show or two. He was before his time..
THIS is a cultural icon
I love it! Thanks for sharing!
Bill Monroe didn't teach Earl Scruggs timing. When Earl was young, him and his brother used to walk opposite ways around their house while playing and see if they were still in sync when they met on the other side.
Yep, and Doyle Lawson had his guys to the same thing with acapela vocals
I hadn't heard that! That's a cool story! Where did you hear that?
@@huliniswhoiam I want to say Jim Mills talked about it or possibly Earl said it in an interview but I can’t recall right now. But it’s one of them, or both could be the case.
Three pioneers, Carlton, Bill & Jimmy.
it's in the ballpark, I guess. And I love bluegrass music
Which Pythagoras ? there must be two. Carlton Haney brilliant .... and I believe him.
If you know music theory, some--note that I'm saying SOME--of what Haney says here isn't entirely off-base. I'm thinking specifically of his explanation of intervals. At some point I realized that he's speaking not about degrees of the scale (as a musically literate person would), but rather, about semitones. (That bit about instruments in different octaves, on the other hand....)
I think I was in the crowd that was privileged to witness this little symposium, BTW. It was in the lobby of the Galt House hotel in Louisville. (Did someone probably already mention that in another comment?)
I would pay big money to sit on a bus with Jimmy and Carlton to listen to them argue
“Now I’m gonna blow ya mind.”
He’d clearly already blown his own.
Love the music but the theory is not exactly correct. Pythagoras did not set A=440. during the time of Bach Concert Pitch A was set much lower than today. Also the tuning system that we all use today is based on the piano which is the “well tempered” system not Pythagorean. That’s why studio musicians like myself have to use “sweetened tunings” devised by companies like Peterson to compensate with other “well tempered” instruments. One other fact is that in modern European Orchestras concert A is set higher than 440. One another note, Pythagoras did set the octave and how to divide the octave for fretted instruments and that’s why guitars have “compensated frets” or are using the Buzz Feiten system these days.
Another interesting bit: Concert Pitch was part of the Treaty of Versailles.
You're mistaken about every claim you assert.
1. In Bach's time there were only regional pitch standards revolving around local organs. German-speaking lands had two pitch standards, Chorton and Kammerton (choir pitch and chamber pitch), and instrumental musicians had to transpose between them.
For a history of European pitch standards, see Bruce Haynes' book "A History of Performance Pitch: The Story of A."
2. Just intonation is a tuning system that adheres to the intervals of the natural harmonic series (the harmonics across a string or the pitches playable on a bugle). If a fixed-pitch instrument is tuned to these intervals, it will only be able to play in tune in one key. The others will sound out of tune. This is how classical Hindustani and Carnatic instruments are tuned, and the tradeoff for intervallic purity is that they must be centered around a drone and cannot modulate without retuning.
The ancient Mediterranean tuning system - which was historically attributed to Pythagoras, but we now know was practiced more widely - was to tune a sequence of pure fifths. If one starts from C at the top of our familiar circle of fifths, and tunes fifths around the circle - G, D, A . . . all the way around to B#, that B# willbnot align with the initial C, but will fall microtonally sharp. Pythagoras knew this, whether or not he was the first to discover it. This microtonal interval between B# and C is commonly called the Pythagorean comma. The interval between E# (11-o-clock) and B# (12-o-clock) is a pure fifth, but the interval between E# and C is slightly too small. It is a dissonant interval called a wolf fifth.
That is, the circle of fifths is naturally an infinite coil.
The Pythagorean tuning, used in Europe throughout the medieval period and also in China until the 20th century Cultural Revolution was to tune fifths pure and not use the wolf fifth. The limitations of this system were the wolf fifth that disallowed unlimited transposition and modulation, and dissonant, too big major thirds. Medieval European music treated thirds as dissonances and classical Chinese music does not use tertian harmony.
Many temperaments existed in Bach's time. Circular "well" temperaments were most common in the 18th century. They were unequal - keys closest to C major on the circle of fifths were more in tune than keys closest to F# major. It is mathematically impossible to tune a fixed-pitch instrument.
Since the 15th century, European instrument makers and players invented compromise tuning systems called temperaments to allow for sweetened thirds in keys near C major on the circle of fifths at the expense of keys near F# major. These are means to crimp the natural infinite coil of fifths into a closed circle.
In Bach's day the most popular temperaments were "well" temperaments, in whichbkeys near C major were sweetest, keys near F# major were most dissonant, and "black key" notes could function as sharps or flats, being tuned to compromise pitches between them.
During the 19th century, the prevailing tuning system in Europe and the Americas became 12-tone equal temperament, in which the octave is divided into equal twelfths. In this system, a semitone is the twelfth root of two. No intervals but the ovtave are pure, and each key is equally out of tune. Fixed-pitch instruments in the modern west, and increasingly across the globe, are tuned in 12-tone equal temperament. This is not the same as an 18th century well temperament.
Modern pianos employ "stretch tuning" to compensate for inefficiencies present in the extreme diameters of their bass strings. The extreme octaves are slightly detuned from a 12-TET paradigm so as to better harmonize with the central octave. This is not a theoretical temperament, but a practical adjustment of one to compensate for varying degrees of string inharmonicity.
Good piano tuners will also slightly sweeten certain keys by slightly detuning others, in order to flatter the keys the pianist will use. This is a subtly unequal tweaking of 12-TET.
Guitar fretting systems like the Buzz-Feiten and Thidell Formula One work the same way. They are subtle tweakings of 12-TET to compensate for non-ideal strings (the ideal string is infinitely thin).
Since at least the 16th century, European players of fretted instruments tuned equally - in a practically equal temperament produced by square and compass rather than division by irrational numbers - in shades of unequal "mean tone temperament", which sweetens some thirds at the expense of some fifths, or in a pragmatic combination of just and tempered intervals. All surviving metal-fretted instruments from the 16th - 17th century (citterns, bandoras, and orpharions) are fretted equally, while most gut-fretted instruments in paintings from these times appear to be mostly equally spaced.
For more information on the temperaments known and used in Bach's day, see Bradley Lehman's 2022 article, "The Notes Tell Us How to Tune," available on his website, larips dot com.
For more information of historical tempering of fretted instruments, see the books "Lutes, Viols, Temperaments" by Mark Lindley and "Meantone Temperaments on Lutes and Viols" by David Dolata.
Sincerely, a fellow lover of music and string instruments
@mbmcdaniel8930 you are mistaken. See my above comment.
Informative at the least. Good to know at best.
Thanks !!!
Please don't believe the theory and the math presented here. It's pretty funny if you don't take it seriously.
Gerry Tenney if u know harmony you know what he’s talking about. The details on the history aren’t quite right, but his description of diatonic scale and chromatic scale and chord formulas were all spot on.
Holy shit. I've found the holy grail
sounds like one of my family gatherings
One of my dad's best friends.
thanks for posting!!! This is incredibly mind blowing!!!
Damn that tooth!!
Which one? He's got at least two... haha
I love this!
I grew up with Carlton and the Camp Springs Festival........you'd have to know Carlton to filter the good parts he speaks of. Carlton 'I did it for the money' Haney.........one of a kind.
that's awesome.
"Two" many Chiefs not enough Indians.
that one tooth just hang’n in there for dear life!!
Bullshit er from way back. Jimmy Martin loves him all the same.
Jimmy could shovel just as much. They're great together here. This stuff is priceless.
So great
🤔😳😵💫🤯🧐🤣 - “Pathfthagarussss!”
That’s some high end hillbilly rithmetic ciphering
My girlfriends Vibrator was in a HIGHER OCTAVE
Carlton was funny. Jimmy just tried to keep up.
Haney forgot more about music than most of you critics know.
This is dope
From Bean Blossom Dwight Dillman and Mary Yeomans in the crowd.
Gold
Lovely smile on that bloke. 😁
Cas walker would fit in boys
This is so freakin' funny I can't stand it!
I hurried up and recorded that sucker before they delete it off youtube. If you're a musician and don't download this, too bad.
My goodness I miss the real deals!
Bill Monroe did Blue Moon of Kentucky in the key of C.
It sounds a bit garbled but, he's got it right , Great stuff
Pure Magic / Gold
”Mac didnt sing Bluegrass Breakdown in C ”!!!!
Because it's an instrumental.
Hi Dan-- do you mind sharing where you found this? Trying to cite and would love to know the original source/owner of the content. Thanks!
It could be cited legitimately in scholarship on musical humor and/or public reception and perceptions of music theory. I’m curious about the source as well.
@@braedenpaul4944 None of the musical theory explanations don't seem exactly right to me, but I'm no expert in theory myself. The way Carlton explains it, certainly makes it sound theoretical!!!! The stories they are telling are quite true from their perspectives. I know they were both selling it pretty good to the ppl listening. lol The folks listening had no clue either way.
jdcrowe82 if u know theory u know what Carlton is saying. He describes diatonic scale, chromatic scale, chord formulas, scale formulas, ensemble writing, and he does it all coherently. He says a buncha stupid crap about the history of these theories, but that’s alright.
@@JamisonMyth I was in Chamber choir in high school. Our state choir reserved 4 slots for each number grade. example 100, 100A, 100B, 100c etc. & made the top 4 in Tenor every year I tried out scoring no less than 100. With that said, I knew very little about theory & sang my solo's by memory with the judges only giving me a starting note. I could barely read any music & I've haven't had many avenues to sharpen that knowledge. I only know what God has blessed me to know by ear. I have learned just a small bit about theory. I can understand it but sadly, I can't afford the lessons that can teach it properly.
I'm glad to know that someone else can understand what he's saying. I wouldn't have been much different than Jimmy Martin. Except I would have been much less talkative. lol You can tell that almost all of it was going straight over Jimmy's head. I would have pretty well been in the same boat.
Thanks for setting me straight, cause I've been in music for 26 years & couldn't get a good foothold on what he was saying. By his demeanor, I figured he was mostly playing it up for the camera. It all sure seemed to make sense to him though. lol
James Scherer I have a graduate degree in music theory, and I like to think I know it....His explanations of most of the theoretical concepts are half right, at best. He was an excellent promoter and showman, so I mean no disrespect. I personally find his B.S. hilariously entertaining.
I’m dying 😂
2:52 A major chord is 1, 3, 5 and 8. You can leave out the 3rd and play "1, 5 and 8" and have 3 of the 4 notes, but your missing one. Lowering the 5th down one to the fourth is not a minor chord. A minor chord is made up of a flattened third. Dropping the 8th to the 7th is not a diminished chord. It's a 7th chord. A diminished chord has a flattened 3rd and a flattened 5th. Augmented chord has a sharpened 5th, not a raised 8 to 9. I think a "double augmented fourth" is a brand new creation to music theory. I know these guys are legends in bluegrass, God bless their souls, but they were also excellent bullshitters. I wouldn't enroll my kid in Carlton's music school, that's for sure.
He’s talking about semitones not intervals lol. It helps to do this to explain it to people who don’t play music because they can just count the notes and don’t have to know the scales.
@@williamtrakas3142 People who play music know he's talking out his ass. If you don't know how to play music, and want to learn, don't listen to Carlton. Nor is he talking about semitones, he's making an attempt at music theory, he clearly needs more lessons.
Hey, as long as Carlton believes what he's saying....That's what matters.
Octave is 10 notes huh? 😂😂😂
Lowering a 5 to 4 will never make a minor.... Varlton thinks he knows music theory, and he can play like crazy, but he needs to take another class. 😂😂😂😂
Jimmy's face is priceless, lol.
This is so funny..... but seriously, keeping instruments in different octaves creates a larger sound, he is right about that.
Seems like he's talking about half-steps, not scale degrees - I actually think he gets a lot of this right: if tonic = 1 on a chromatic clock (which is a bit confusing because we typically think of the tonic as being at 12 o clock, but let's start at 1 in this case), the major third is at 5, and the minor third would be at 4. The 5th would be at 8 too
He said “tier of notes” lol
Sounds like a couple of t v evangelists
@klumog Yeah, or used car salesmen. lol
Sounds like coon hunters
Wow….
Jimmy Martins ego blinds him to the fact that Carlton Haney is a musical savant. Can't let anyone else upstage him.
Bluegrassmovie12 Jimmy Martin the one and only had no ego problems excuse you he is the king of all bluegrass
wish they had a LMAO button
Nathan Patterson He gave himself that title. So yes, his ego is huge.
Stewart Werner yet everyone recognizes him as the king that’s because he is the best
Nathan Patterson Not everyone does. He was definitely one of the greats for sure, but he gave himself that title, and I know very few people who actually call him the King of bluegrass
432 hz ...where we supposed to be.
I thought that only Greeks, like myself, claimed that everything originates back in ancient Greece.
Jimmy can’t share the spotlight.
PUHTHAIGURUH
He meant that with all 5 teeth.
America uses the old imperial system in its music theory whereas Europe changed to the socialistic decimal system after Stalin released his second album. America is the music of FREEDOM.
wut
@@GuitarLessonsInsideSyracuseNY Yeah...………..I second that wut.
Ha, not everything is a conspiracy.
You're one of those guys who thinks Stalin's early stuff was better? Elitist!
;^)
Your education X-ray doesn't work on the earthly taught ones.
😀!
This is a huge amount of music theory misinformation haha
that’s the point 😂
Damn ...hits getting scientific up in heah..
Love these guys! Hilarious video.. But seriously kids, don't take music theory from Carlton Haney.
He is talking about pythagoras... then he mentions do re mi... a system developed by Kodaly. Riiiiight
Plain music hear them talk
Carlton sure had a load of BS but I actually think he believed all that stuff.
Yeah LOL. Pythagoras invented neither A 440 (that was a standard established in 1926) nor the concept of an octave. What is attributed to Pythagoras is actually the circle of fifths. Also, when he's describing the concept of putting instruments in four octaves, he's simply describing the whole history of Western chamber music, not something Monroe invented.
@@MarkTraphagen in the concepts he was talking about, everything was true and accurate. He just was explaining it in a way he believed to be the case. He really did understand what he was saying and did indeed make sense when talking about octaves.
Jimmy just couldn't stand it!!!!
Who cares, just pick !
And people ask me why I left Bluegrass at the tender age of 22. If ignorance is bliss I guess I was just blissed out!
My favorite moment is 2:13 when Haney almost hits Martin in the face while describing his bogus claim that Monroe invented the idea of putting instruments in four octaves. (That's what Western chamber music was doing since medieval times.)
specifically when in this video was the claim "bluegrass was the first genre to put separate instruments in 4 separate octaves" i cant find it?
@@Glaudge the timestamp is in my comment: 2:13
@@MarkTraphagen that was my point. the claim was never made that bluegrass was the first genre of music to assign all instruments to a separate octave.
@@Glaudge Go back a bit to the beginning of his explanation of how Monroe separated instruments into four different octaves. He clearly implies that Monroe invented this idea, and at my time stamp he says "that's what bluegrass music is" as if no other Western music did this.
@@MarkTraphagen i believe what was implied was more of a "that's how it's supposed to be played" in comparison to multiple instruments trying to play in one octave, not a comparison of music genres
Now I'm out of tune and really confused after listening to this
I hope kids don’t watch this video and change their major because they think they just learned all there is to music theory...
PYTHAGORAS YEEEEE YEEEEE
Haney is correct, but is talking way over everyone's ability to understand. The analysis is instructive, but the greats like Monroe and Jimmy had it naturally.
Speaking on theory he's not though....
Uh no he's not...his information about theory is BS
Actually no, Pythagoras set A 440 to 432...not 440. The international units of standards set it to 440 hundreds of years later. Haney said more bullshit. My god. Meth anyone?
Jimmy had clue to what to say except "we went from A to B"...there comes the high lonesome sound.
I read where the Nazis actually set A to 440 because it seemed to agitate the people, believe it or not.
brasspick why was Jimmy Martin never a member of the grand ol opry
Yeah LOL. Pythagoras invented neither A 440 (that was a standard established in 1926) nor the concept of an octave. What is attributed to Pythagoras is actually the circle of fifths. Also, when he's describing the concept of putting instruments in four octaves, he's simply describing the whole history of Western chamber music, not something Monroe invented.
@@marycornett3165 When ppl left Bill Monroe to do their own thing musically, he would get hurt at them & often kept ppl from being on the Opry for a while. He tried to keep Flatt & Scruggs off the Opry. He succeeded for a while untill it got to the point that their popularity was just unstoppable. Another reason Jimmy wasn't on the opry is most likely because of Jimmy himself. Jimmy would get drunk at home & then want to take off & go backstage at the Opry. Which I'm sure he managed to do on a couple occasions. When Jimmy was drunk, he would run that mouth twice as hard, fast, loud & vulgar as he ever would sober. He felt that some ppl had gotten far above their raising at the Opry & he didn't care to let them know about it, with whatever words he happened to be thinking at that moment. He had ruffled the feathers of a lot of influential ppl at the Opry & that, to a big extent, kept him off the Opry. He never did learn to filter things from his mind to his mouth. He just said what ever he thought. He got to the point where you couldn't put him on stage with a time limit. He'd go over his allotted time constantly & the Opry's not gonna have that kind of thing going on for one second.
@sadpj4 tyler440 Carlton & Jimmy weren't on meth you arrogant prick. Lighten up & have a little bit of respect for your elders & for those whose parents couldn't afford to pay for music theory classes. This was posted as a joke. Carlton was a poor & uneducated man. He probably worked all his life & couldn't afford to go to school because he had to work to help provide for his family. In his mind what he's saying is exactly how he hears the music & to a small degree it makes some sense, if you'll listen. For instance, when he's talking about the instruments being in their own octaves, what he means to say is frequencies. The instruments occupy their own frequency ranges, which is somewhat true. Each bluegrass instrument has it's own unique tone or timbre. Carlton just didn't know how to say it that way & was probably nervous about being in front of a camera. He was probably searching for whatever musical terms he could think of in his mind regardless of whether or not he knew what they meant. I don't know where he came up with all that other bologna, but it makes for some good entertainment & the ppl around him sure didn't seem to know the difference. So I give him an A+ for selling it like he did. lol That being said, there's no reason for you to make a condescending remark about him. It's alright to inform ppl of the musical facts, but no reason for you to get your panties in a bunch & put someone down who wasn't fortunate enough to have the musical education you may have had. Douche bags use meth. Are you on meth? Cause, my God, you certainly seem like a douche bag from your remark.