Debating the merits of red dots
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- Опубліковано 25 чер 2024
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Me: “Red dots allow you to shoot faster and more accurately.”
Anti Red Dot Guys: “How dare you. I prefer to miss slowly.”
Shot irons for years as a perennial B shooter. Switching to a red dot instantly gave me visual feedback I had never seen. Information overload. Vision, grip and trigger pull issues were immediately obvious. An incredible learning tool.
There are literally zero down sides to putting a dot on your gun.
1. If it fails... you're back to irons. No biggie.
2. If you actually train, and your index is squared, dot working or not, you're still going to get acceptable hits at self defense ranges.
I have forgot to turn my practice guns dots on before. Cold start draw, I start shooting and get super confused because I didn't see a dot. Realized I forgot to turn my dot on, also realized I still had all A zone hits. 🤷♂️
They fog up. They can snag on things. They're expensive. They're a pain in the ass to mount on some guns. They can fail. They require special holsters.
Yeah, no downsides, right.
@@jellyfrosh9102 I firmly believe you can shoot just fine without red dots. I also do not believe everyone needs to run out and buy one.
With that said... YES. No downsides. The arguments you're making can be made about putting a red dot on anything. I bet you have dots or scopes on your rifles... don't you? Lol Better go take them off. Wouldn't want them to fog up.
@@chap23305yeah people always try to make that argument for pistols but dont feel the same for rifles…ive seen irons fall off glocks twice in the past 5 years and i only go to the range once a month or every few months which needs to change
I think, specifically for an average concealed carrier (ie, somebody who doesn’t train), a dot isn’t really necessary, and I think a good set of irons (blacked out rear, fiber optic front) is probably about 98% as effective as a dot. For an average concealed carrier, I hesitate to insist that it’s red dot or nothing. You are adding mass and bulk to a gun that is ostensibly supposed to be concealed/streamlined as effectively as possible, and I think a cost/benefit analysis of a dot, specific to concealed carry, doesn’t warrant including it on a carry gun. If you want a dot, go for it, but I just don’t see it as necessary, for the most part. If you have an average concealed carrier, I think there are numerous downsides to a dot, the most significant being the development of an index, which isn’t nearly as important when shooting with irons.
@user-sc2ye2rj6g I 100% agree with you. I don't encourage people to get a dot unless they dry fire and shoot A LOT (like most of us do). Thay said, I do tell people there is little to no downside if they do want one
Funny how its just a given to put a battery powered optic on combat rifles but people lose their mind if a red dot is on a pistol 😂.
To play Devi's advocate, they've been around longer, the recoil impulse on an AR is significantly less, the housings are larger and can take more abuse, the mounting systems are significantly more robust etc...and we have real evidence of combat rifle optics service in actual austere locations over decades. I do think pistol optics seem to have caught up to some extent, however I dont' see any evidence of them being used on combat infantryman's kit over months and years, and that's the real test isn't it? A grunt can break anything, which is why Trijicon and Aimpoint enjoy great reputations, not because somebody shot a lot of rounds on a flat range, but because grunts abused these things in real world environments and had a low breakage rate.
As an old guy I guess 69 is old I fought buying a red dot because I always shot irons but not being able to see front sight except on a 5” or longer pistol caused me to change my thinking, now I have 4 red dots. Thank for the great videos always enjoy them.
I shoot a ton of non-glocks for reviews, almost always with optics, so I switched back to carrying iron sighted glocks. At least for me it's easier to switch back to a glock grip angle if it has irons. But that may be because the first 6+ years I was shooting handguns it was all iron sights.
Instead of being a guntuber you could become more relevant and train with a dot. Take a Ben class.
Having a fucked index is a lot easier to overcome when your sights give you an easy way to unfuck it. Switching guns all the time is a great way to fuck your index up, but unlike most people, you get paid for your suffering lol
Will you ever sell pics of your feet or do a calendar of your feet?
@@danhanus2294lmao
Hop we all know your too poor for optics. James keeps all the tfbtv money.
I'm 64, only been shooting since 2017 using iron sights. Shoot about 2500 to 3000 rounds a year since I started, done some training classes and uspsa matches over the years, went to a class 1st week of May this year focussed on stage planning everyone had red dot but me, before the class one of the trainers asked me If I wanted to borrow his p320x5 legion slide w / dot, I said sure why not, absolutely game changer for me , near sighted astigmatism, won't go back to irons for competitions , put dot on my carry glock 19, it's taking me longer to get used it on the glock. I'm doing more dry fire and live fire to get comfortable with both, loving it.
People against red dots for frivolous reasons just dont want to admit their personal learning curve is steeper. It took me a few hundred rounds to make the switch to a dot and shoot it well. And this maybe a surprise....but it helps you shoot with irons better!
Moving over to a dot took me a couple of months. About the same amount of time it took me to move from TDA to striker.
I'd gotten in the habit of prepping the trigger really, really aggressively for that DA shot...
1,000% agree
I think part of the problem is the same one we all share; we have a hobby horse and we like to way over complicate it. Don’t get me started on knives.
The arguments against it are mostly silly, but I will acknowledge the cost. He mentioned shooting thousand of rounds a month vs rarely shooting. A red dot for me makes sense because I count my rounds in the tens of thousands a year. My buddy who shoots twice a year and never cleans his pistol or rifle could live without it.
“Prepping the trigger really, really aggressively…” 😂😂😂 you’re killing me. I wonder how many others here also train to prep the trigger too. I’ve started to add stop training to my live fire training. I don’t remember where I saw it, but it made sense so I added it.
Biggest issues are that red dots cost a lot for a decent dot, and they increase your concealment footprint by a significant margin. Significant enough so that even if you have a smaller red dot, you essentially have to carry one gun size down to maintain the same level of concealment. Which means that, if you can normally carry a compact/midsize gun and conceal well, you’re probably going to have to carry a subcompact if you want to maintain the same level of concealment due the increased height and unnatural angles introduced by the dot. So now you’re gaining a red dot, but you’re losing the capacity and shootability of a compact/midsize gun, in exchange for a subcompact. Or you can still mount the red dot on your compact and have worse concealment. The point being that there are trade offs.
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good info
Do you NEED a red dot? NO! Train with both iron sights and red dots and carry with whatever makes you more confident and comfortable.
"It's better than golf." Ben dropping a quotable wisdom bomb there😅
Hi Ben! I was able to finally find a 34! Local FFL got in a bunch of the Gen 5s. Gonna hopefully try to go pick one up this weekend or next.
I’m paraphrasing another commenter, but red dots are essentially suppressor height, adjustable, night sights all in one package.
The value proposition is there *if* you’re committed to learning. It provides a ton of utility to carry size guns like the p365/xl. It also has breathed new life into the PX4 compact which basically had two nightsight options, both of which had huge front sights. As you can tell, I’m all in.
The thing is that it’s not an “either, or” problem. Just train with both. If you are skilled with one, it doesn’t mean you start at zero with the other.
I’ve been shooting slide mounted red dots since 2010 competitively.
I have at various times carried a red dot concealed. I generally find it to be more maintenance hassle than it’s worth. Cleaning the lens every day becomes annoying. I’ve also sweated so much in Arizona that I’ve corroded slides, and exposing an optic to my corrosive bodily fluids is probably sub optimal.
I also generally think the problems we encounter competitively are more difficult than the average self defense scenario as far as shooting skills tested.
That said I think red dots on duty guns carried in duty holsters designed for them make more sense. The same annoying factors of dead skin, lint, deodorant flakes, and sweat getting on the lens don’t apply when carried OWB in a duty holster.
I do use red fiber optic front sights on my carry guns and other iron sight guns at this point to make switching between them and red dot guns easier.
Enclosed emitter dots are the answer
@@thatonedooodthey’re better but the lenses still get gross.
So what if the lens gets dirty. Clean isn’t a requirement to shoot well. Occluding the optic still works, so an aesthetically less than pristine view doesn’t matter much.
Just use a closed emitter. All you have to do is wipe off the rear emitter with your shirt, which you can do while it’s in the holster. I also think that it doesn’t really matter if self defense is “easier” than competitive shooting since the goal is to get as good as possible, not to reach some sort of specific level of competency and then stop.
@@jamesbruce1103But i thought maintenance of firearms is only for boomers?? Seriously tho, if you are only getting a fraction of a percentage more out of a dot when concealed carrying, is it honestly worth it?
For people that shoot their guns, the positives far outweigh the negatives. The cost is minimal compared to ammunition, they allow you to shoot much more effectively at distance, and are a good self coaching tool.
Not that everyone needs to copy Police or the Military, but when government agencies begin to adopt the tech, it is vetted enough for the average gun owner to use.
Even the maintenance is minimal. Install dot correctly (torque to spec with blue loctite), learn to make adjustments and zero, and change the battery once a year.
Great content man! Love seeing multiple videos throughout the day... gives me a nice break from my bs day hah! Cheers!
Love your channel! I started seriously shooting in 2020 with a G17 gen 4 and a few months later switched to a red dot. I'm 52 yrs old now and I've been learning from the various gun tubers, but your channel, I have learned the most from, by far. I've been shooting local USPSA matches for 3 years now and am a lowly C Class CO shooter and am getting better and better everytime I shoot. Keep up the great content and good work. Mahalo from Hawaii's 2A community 🤙
That’s awesome man.
Could you enlighten all the simps that fall over for tulsi gabbard that she did a lot of damage to the 808 2A community
Way better than golf lol
Probably a lot in common with golf. Both sports are about discipline and consistency and always chasing the next increment of improvement.
@@Jonathan906
One potentially brings money, the other burns it.
Saw several high level shooters switch to golf.
@@onpsxmember There was a year or so period time during my teen years when a good mentor might have turned me on to golf. I was interested, had subscribed to all the magazines, had bought a set of clubs, had practiced chipping as best as I could in my city backyard. I was also painfully shy and lacked confidence. I went to a golf course one time, was by myself, and was so overwhelmed and intimated that I never went back and never golfed again.
Ben, having to deal with a bunch of Fuddery, afoot. Thanks for the share!!
It still gets me, its like putting a half inch long rod straight up in the middle of your slide with a bb glued to the end. Like a shotgun bead but on a half inch steel rod lol
Green dot lover here it took me a year shooting iron sights for many many year to say … Damn ! This is how it suppose to be. Love all the awesome optic technology out these days that I didn’t have 40 years ago. My edc the Sheild Plus is non mos but I’m thinking about going with the dovetail mount and a Holosun 407 married to it. Dots are the future and the future is now.
Cheers 🍻👍🏻🇺🇸
7:49 Even you buy a glock
I bought my Glock 34 Gen5 MOS this year, no issue running irons, but once I put 507comp on there, it malfunction every round I fired.
I email the customer service and they send me a new recoil spring to try out, the gun start working again. Everything is stock by the way.
Red dots are definitely helpful for us guys old enough to need bifocals. I used to struggle with tilting my head to see my front sight, now I can shoot accurately even without my eyeglasses. It's a huge confidence builder especially for my bedside gun. "Oh wait Mr Intruder, let me put my glasses on." Love your videos.
Interesting to hear about Impact shift with occlusion. I had that happen to one of my students last week while the team was shooting taped-up. Gun grouped almost a foot right. Tape came off, group went back to center. I'll be mindful that its "a thing" when I see it in the future.
I dig your delivery, non judge mental you do you attitude should resonate with anyone half way serious about gun ownership. Your opinion should be valued with your credentials and encouraging comments for discussion is admirable while helping with the algorithm 😊 I have been a competitive skeet shooter for 20+ years and find myself being sucked into steel challenge, pcsl 2 gun, and …….. you know the drill. Learning target focus early in my “career“ has made the transition to a red dot way easier than FRONT SIGHT POST CLEAR FUZZY BULL method.
Shot irons since 1977, hit about 55 and knew something had to change. Gave the red dot a try, admittedly took an eternity of dry fire practice and range time. Bottom line I wouldn’t go back now, absent some special scenarios, Insane harsh conditions etc. which to me would be rare and unlikely.
I'm coming up on 50, had LASIK a while back... and being able to get a clear front sight is getting problematic. I'm a huge fan of red dots on my pistols.
Why was your transition so difficult? With that much time behind a gun, you should be able to get perfect hits with no sights inside 10.
I've got about 2500 rds of pistol RDS after decades of shooting irons. The optic is a good training device and it's helped my presentation and iron shooting generally, but I still prefer irons on my carry guns.
My duty carry is a Gen3 G17 w a red dot. Off duty is a Gen3 G26 with irons. I practice with both in equal amounts. Although I've had a red dot for two years, I'm still not used to it versus irons. Shot irons for 22 years versus 2 years w red dot. Slowly getting there
Just started getting into competition (really to just help my general proficiency). I’m running a Glock 49 with a Holosun EPS carry (green) sitting in a CH Precision plate. I will be installing Night Fision BUIS with low cowitness. So far, so good. I’m 55 and I have LASIK distance vision, terrible close vision. I believe the dot helps. Been watching your videos and learning, thanks.
I've gotten to the point of just telling people to not be gun Amish. All firearms deserve optics, unless your specific competition requires irons only.
The majority of shooters are not ready for optics and it defeats the purpose. They spend more time looking for the dot and aiming with it like a hunting scope. They didn’t put in the work to develop good presentation with irons they won’t with a dot.
Most of the time when I hear people say they prefer irons or don’t like red dots is because they’ve A. Never used a red dot, B. Have used one and sucked with it and chalked it up to the red dot sucking, or C. Can’t afford one or don’t want to shell out the money for one.
I use/shoot/carry both irons and red dots and enjoy them both for various reasons. Frankly, there are many more factors in any given self-defense scenario that will matter more than the sighting system on the gun.
Most will close their eyes and spray. Need proof, watch any video of cops shooting at vehicles. Tires are flat and no groups, and they are “trained”
at 10:50 talking about peoples eyes not tracking right. i had the issue for decades after having a TBI, guess what you can do physical therapy for your eyes. thats right, im not kidding you. if both your eyes dont track the same, it cam be worked on.
Them: "Should I get a red dot?"
Me: "Are you going to dry fire?"
Them: "Umm, uhh"
Me: "Well, if you are going to ignore the sights anyway, you might as well ignore the free sights that come with the gun rather than pay $500 for a dot you're going to ignore."
10 millionth time National Production Champion is too reliant on his red dot? Lol
I had an MOS plate failure that I had to send back to Glock in order to repair. My gun was on the table at an outdoor range and got knocked off causing the gun to land on the ground pretty hard however it was on grass/dirt not concrete or something. After the fall I noticed my zero seemed to wander so I made my adjustment and it was OK but after another mag or two my zero once again wandered. I took it home and started pulling the red dot off and realized a screw that holds the mos plate to the Glock slide had sheared off flush with the slide.
At first I tried to remove it(I work in a machine shop) but the screw was tiny and I didn't wanna risk damage to my slide so I just sent it in. That all happened with the OEM MOS plate. The problem with MOS is that the entire mechanical load is transferred to the screws in a situation like I've described. Aftermarket plates are made of better materials but they don't change how the plate mounts to the gun.
54 years of shooting irons I'm easing into red dots with one gun. I bring my one red dot 9mm and a 2nd iron gun to my sessions. My red dots shooting consists of raising from low ready, lining up the target, and firing 1 to 5 shots. My dry fire sessions include draw from strong side. About 10% one hand either/or. Slowly Im getting comfortable with the red dot. I sure as hell could protect myself with it. I think I have to agree the red dot is better but the difficulty for old guys like me is the transition. I'm 66yo and been shooting since I was 8yo. One issue I have with my red dot is I pull low sometimes. Good strings but I pull low and never has this cropped up before. 1/2 blind but shooting is still my hobby.
I have 350,000 rounds through a gun. In AceXR. :) If you haven't heard of this, it's a virtual reality shooting simulator. I also have access to an outdoor range with action bays and a steel park. I was very pleasantly surprised that the simulated gun (with red dot) seemed to provide an excellent "dry fire" experience that translated directly to the outdoor range. All the red dot skills are there... acquiring the dot, target focus, grip / trigger pull matter, the "dot movie", etc. HIGHLY recommend.
Optics make me see better like damn near cheat code see better.
I like dots, but I've found I only really like them if they're slick to the gun with the factory irons like the Holosun SCS on a Glock 19, or SIGs new dots that do the same.
After watching Bob Vogel absolutely shred courses with iron sights I decided to leave red dots behind and just get better with irons.
I once had to qualify with iron sights while looking through a dead SRO with a dirty window and it was miserable. It made me realize back up irons are near useless in some conditions.
Shooting 2 years now. A lot more in last year. I'm presently comfortable inside of 15yds with my shield plus 3.1 & irons. Older eyes so now will try the red dots. heard good things about them. No reason can't have both and be proficient. These days can have cowitness abilities.
Here’s my hot take - it’s a big point of trepidation on handguns because there is no equivalent to picatinny rail as a standard mounting solution on handguns. At most you have the RMR footprint which still needs screws OR the ACRO footprint which is getting closer but still has not seen any sort of standardization. Some big LE contracts, yes, but not nearly a NATO standard. The point where red dots on carbines became a thing coincides closely with the introduction of the flat top M4/M16 as a standard service weapon. Also, scopes and optics on rifles had long since been a thing.
Until NATO adopts some standardized mounting solution for all service pistols and you have a bunch of optics manufacturers start to conform to it to win contracts, this debate is going to continue. Slapping a $100 Chinese T2 clone on a carbine is a no-risk, no-brainer move at this point. Putting an optic on a hand gun is just THAT little bit more of a PITA thanks to the lack of standardization and inherent issues with putting an optic on a violently recoiling slide.
Ive had 3 sets of irons fail. I had my PPQs front sight eject during a match and both my g34 and PDPs rear sights have drifted by themselves. Ive only had 1 sro "fail" and that was only after it dropped and the glass cracked but it was stull functional and zeroed. Ive never understood the BuT dOtS fAiL.
To me shooting with irons and dots is a good way you be proficient in both. Only two of my pistols have dots, and its mainly for duty use. If you shoot a gun you like well enough ive found it dont matter whether it has a dot on it or not.
Holy crap 10:50 I recently tried occluding my red dot thinking it would make me better and suddenly I started grouping far left. Glad to hear I didn't suddenly become much worse but now I need to fix the bad habits I made trying to fix my new random shift to left impact groups lol.
If you do a dive into occluded eye gunsights (OEG - technology old enough to have seen use in the Vietnam war - Son Tay Raid), it's good if you have good binocular vision, but your point of impact will wander the longer you're aiming. Works really well for fast shots.
Have you checked to see if you are cross eye dominant?
@@oklahomahank2378 Only using the ol' hand triangle test but every time it returns to center. I've always shot right handed though.
@@immikeurnot Funny enough I have one of these that my Dad gave me after they "fell of the supply truck" in the 90s in the Marines.
Ben, dig the content. Have you experienced any bouts of tennis elbow or carpal tunnel in your competition and training career as a shooter? Any recommendations?
Get some 1 and 2 lb dumbbells and do wrist exercises. Don’t go to failure. You want to build endurance not one rep type strength. Ice and heat. Great excuse to get massages too, happy ending type places all over AZ.
I didn't care for a long time. The next pistol purchase will, at least be optics cut, no compromise.
I don't own a single red dot. However, I noticed when I was at BCT that every single soldier qualified, and the overwhelming majority of them got sharpshooter or expert. We all had Aimpoint M68 CCOs. I refuse to buy one because I am a traditionalist idiot. I can't shoot iron sights worth a god damn, probably never will be able to, possibly due to my astigmatism and the way glasses prescription affects my focal plane and the clarity of the front sight. To be honest, the red dot is easy mode. The only downside of a red dot as far as I'm concerned is that it is locked in to a good BZO on a combat rifle, but with 5.56 that is scarcely a practical problem, as you can get a good 36yd/300yd zero without using your brain and never have to use it again outside of put dot on target and squeeze. That said, I might be autistic as I still want a BDC reticle for some reason. I also like old bolt action rifles and collecting milsurp, so there you go. I'm dumb. Don't be me. Get a red dot. Zero it at 36 yards on all your 5.56 rifles and pick M855 or M193 and stick with your choice. Never think about it again because you don't have to.
Im sorry but who said Ben Stoeger relies on red dots too much? Thats hilarious. Plus, I think I heard you mention at one point that you yourself don't use a red dot on your carry gun.
Who’s going to be the first manufacturer to produce a gun with the optic built into the slide as a one piece unit?
I've had batteries go out on red dots but i have also had front sight blades drift (Sig XMacro) on my carry guns. Every system can have issues. Train for it. Red dot went out at a match and i still shot all zeros with the very low witness iron sights on my gun. Making excuses and not even trying a red dot is missing out on being better.
Are rds required? No. Are they helpful? Yes.
30 plus years shooting. Age catches up with me and I don't see the front sight so good anymore, especially in low light. I work nights. Enter rds. I resisted, at first due to lack of rds cuts on my chosen platform but as they became more prevalent and affordable, I made the change.
Groups shrink back to pre aged eyes standard and I can see the damn thing in the dark.😅 Added bonus, I can shoot under Night Vision with my pistol😁.
Ben, Have you ever been in a situation where you’ve had to use the back up irons on a handgun equipped with a red dot? Can you tell us about it?
I feel there is nothing wrong with preferring one over the other so I won’t push some one to choose . But it can’t be denied that red dot can do all and more. If you need proof find a competition where they got lots of no shoots or more physically imposing challenges such as running , carrying heavy stuff , shooting from angles . And you will notice a night and day difference between running a Red dot and iron sights .
Would an astigmatism be an issue at normal pistol distances?
I'm still not totally convinced. If I shoot about a 4.25 El Pres in my gamer gear - when I grab a gun with a dot I still shoot about a 4.25 second El Pres or it might even be a bit slower? If I want to shoot a nice hand sized group from 30 yards the group might be a little tighter with a dot but they're still about hand sized. I used to shoot a lot of USPSA and I won a couple regional matches - I now only shoot GSSF and I've won a few Matchmeisters and my MOS times and Competition/Master Stock are pretty similar - sometimes it just comes down to a good, or bad run with a particular gun. This holds up against a lot of GSSF Matches where the top MOS score doesn't always beat the Matchmeister score. I don't know which tests or challenges I'm supposed to use to say the dot is better - and that's for me and I shoot and train all the time. And in the context of LE I'm even more unsure because the people that are telling me it's a good idea can maybe shoot a12 second El Pres and can most of the time get all 6 rounds on target from 30 yards. And I also hear them say things like "Drop the dot" and to press out on the front sight and then find the dot. And I see people looking for the dot when they should be shooting. I know this can be alleviated with training but again I'm hearing all these justifications from people that really can't shoot - even though they wear a red shirt.
Im not anti red dots, Im just not shooting them. In the event I use my pistol for life saving purposes, I have zero concerns for making hits within 50 yards on an upright two legged being. Train for limited exposure hostage shots and have for a decade, slow precision shooting isnt that crazy especially across a room type distance. But for those who shoot dots, wonderful, out shoot me? As long as we arent gunfighting each other.. I dont care.
I believe red dots are great but I think many people overhype them as an instant improvement tool. Many people don’t understand nothing is changing other than their perception of aiming. The perfect sight picture is same balance and hold of the gun regardless. Thus, building the muscle memory of one is building the same in the other with the only difference being height over bore. I like red dots but I do prefer irons because they remind me of operating my film photography cameras, just a purely mechanical experience.
My red dot failed during a gunfight, likely because of lighting conditions. A few months after that, during its first range trip since the shooting, a mounting screw sheered off. Luckily I trained with irons and was able to prevail. Indexing sounds great but doesn’t work as well outside of a flat range. You need sights and you need to see them (I’m not saying we need bullseye focus on the front sight tip, but you need a reference to them on the target). Most people shoot faster than they should in real world gunfights.
I went to a red dot instructor course recently from a nationally known instructor who actually taught not to use the dot at all during extremely close range shots but to use the housing as essentially a large front sight. I can just use my front sight for that purpose
I don’t think most of us red dot skeptics are necessarily as hysterically anti red dot as we are made out to be. Professionals that carry for a living and CCW holders both have limited time and training resources. I’m not convinced the extra training time required to learn to use a red dot competently is worth the gains for someone that has to (or at least should be) maintaining a high level of physical fitness, training in control tactics and grappling, keeping up on case law, and learning the tactics and such related to their craft all whole working 40-60 hours a week on the night shift.
I’ve been enjoying my Acro P2. I’m new to dots, but I’ve been shooting irons for over 20 years. Dots aren’t that hard of a transition if your presentation is good. It takes a little getting used to, but not 3-5k rounds. Just dry fire.
That's 3-5 thousand rounds for people that depend on their firearm for their job. Wouldn't you want your local police to understand the recoil impulse of their duty firearm and how it relates to their red dot? Heck I know I would.
@@gator7082 yeah… it doesn’t take 3-5k rounds to figure that out.
@@CutlassOutdoors So you don't want people that carry duty weapons for a living such as police trained to a standard. Cool man.
@@gator7082 what standard do you think they train to? I got my best groups ever on a police qualification test with about 150 rounds through a red dot. Where are you getting 3-5k rounds as a “standard?” It doesn’t take that long to transition to a dot if your fundamentals are good. I doubt most cops shoot 3-5k rounds over their whole career, and you think it’s required just to figure out how to use a red dot? Why?
The sights come down to preference. It’s like a WML. Either do or don’t. It doesn’t matter to me what you use. I use the equipment that makes me a better shooter. That’s what counts.
But the arguments against red dots are typically BS. They’re reliable, good in virtually every lighting condition, battery life is not really an issue, and so on.
Every “con” about red dots can easily be remedied. As a matter of fact, just like any other piece of equipment, with proper and regular training or practice the issues will come up and you can address them.
If irons work for you, then use irons. If red dots work better, then use red dots. The only way to know anything about anything is to try it. Put the time and effort into it and decide for yourself. Or don’t.
Hey Ben, I’m in Arizona with you and I do all my shooting in the desert. Was curious how you measure off the distance to the target, e.g., 7 yards, 10 yards, 25 yards, etc. without a rangefinder. PS: Recently placed a decent order at the BSPS and was pleasantly surprised at the reasonable prices in a market filled with $60 basepads and $400 red dot mounts.
3 feet per step
Amazon has laser measuring devices good up to 100m for less than $40 but i think steps are just fine.
Tape measure if you can’t do the estimate with steps.
You can get a rolling wheel measuring device from the hardware store. They use them for measuring out property lines quick and dirty. Not as precise as a laser survey with plumb bobs but it does the job well enough for shooting practice. Real world targets aren’t going to be at a fixed distance all the time anyways.
My opinion, for what it’s worth: Many people believe that a red dot is faster than iron sights. I don’t believe one is faster than the other. I believe that when switching from iron sights to a red dot, a good bit of practice (the amount varies by the person) is required to present the gun in front of your face so that the dot is in the window and you’re not wiggling the gun around trying to find the dot. I believe that anyone who does that much dry fire practice with iron sights, to the point where the sights are aligned when they arrive directly between your eye and the target, will be just as fast with either. Iron sights are *easier* to align with less practice because there are two sights and you’re looking at them when they come up; this is not the case with a red dot.
I believe that a red dot is a finer aiming “reticle”(?), which makes precision shots with a pistol *easier*. There are plenty of examples available of shooters with iron sights making incredibly precise shots at great distance, but I believe those are the exception rather than the rule.
Bottom line: Both types of sights have advantages and disadvantages. Each person should weigh the pros and cons and decide for themselves which best suits their needs.
I have a Gen5 G34 MOS for sale on gbroker. Just saying
Quick question I’ve heard people say both ways. I’m right handed but left eye dominant should I look through a pistol dot with my dominant left eye or look through it with my right eye like I do while shouldering a rifle?
I'm also left eye dominant but right handed. I shoot pistol with dot both eyes open (so looking through the sight with the left eye) and its not a problem whatsoever. I have to close my left eye when shooting with a rifle.
Since you talked about occlusion in this video you're probably the one to ask how does it work as far as cross eye dominant doing occlusion.
Adding a dot after a year in production made target focused shooting more intuitive, just like your computer mouse comments.
💥 In my opinion, one of the overriding benefits of dots is the ability to stay target focused. They allow us to fight the way God intended. In my case, I’m cross eyed dominant. Im able to shoot with both eyes open. Something I could not do with a Iron Sights.
God intended? They had guns back then?
@@HWG-wm8ld - yes
Nice shirt. Do you have a Mach 1?
Yes I do
I’d really like to hear your opinion/ short list of decent red dots. What red dots under the Holosun level of cost are decent
He does in just about every video
Just get a 407k/507k depending on what reticle you want, or the EPS Carry if you want the enclosed emitter.
What I have found, individuals pushing back on RDs on their pistols, will have them on their carbines....haha
Yup sure will
It took until around the late 2000s for that to be considered normal. Decent commercial red dots weren’t available for rifles until the mid 1990s.
We’re just now hitting the 15 year mark of decent commercially available slide ride red dots being available. It takes time for technology to be accepted and refined to the point of being the standard.
I broke 5 RMRs from 2010 to 2015, all in less than 3000 rounds. Now I can buy a Chinese made red dot for half the price that will last as long as the gun.
5 rmrs?
Do you believe what you say?
@@HWG-wm8ldHe has a channel and a website documenting his competitive career for well over a decade. Russell is absolutely a credible source
@@SinistralRifleman We tested them on pistols in the early 2000s....and they were junk for our intention.....I would just run blacked out rear irons and balloon a FO on the front sight....win win....I have never cared for the RMR from the beginning...but, now with the DPP, SRO, P2 and Holoson, there are solid options that both work and reliable...another win win
Before red dots i hated pistols and sucked. Now with a red dot and training its way better and i am faster. I still shoot irons and the fundamentals transfer.
Horse vs Car, Carburetors vs Fuel Injection, Iron Sites vs Red Dot, any new technology there is always a group that adapts it and a group that rejects it. Grandpa can keep his 1911, I will pick it up after he gets merked. I want high speed, low drag, modern, and tactical. But to each their own, its your life.
High speed low drag tactical…you wear your plate carrier to the public range, don’t you.
All the people that are worried about their red dot sites breaking or running out of batteries, why not co-witness?
Why Glock 45 over 17?
Regarding Howe....I've always felt that anyone who gives a blanket "my way or you're wrong" statement is usually wrong. I prefer your approach..."this is what I believe and here is why." Thanks for your honesty.
I carried one for a while on G43x. Working in the wood products injury I would occasionally shoot or dry fire and the dust collection was insane. It was almost completely unusable.
Where are my fellow Remoil red dot and iron shooters?
Remoil makes red dots?
What is the best handgun under $1200 optics ready?
Best at what?
You need to ask the outlaw guy these rube questions
You might be seeing almost 100% dots in your classes due to the competition demographic that is drawn to what you teach. Recently I took a Rangemaster instructor course, and somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2, but less than 1/2, of the class ran irons. In the local classes that i help teach, we see mostly irons. Our typical student is a beginner and not an enthusiast, and irons are more common at that level.
That’s pretty much what he said. Shooters shoot dots. Gun owners shoot irons.
Gun owners rarely shoot
@@kevinallies1014 My point that I didn't make well is really about the degree to which that statement is true. The students in that instructor class were shooters, yet a fair percentage were using irons. At my local club I know of three shooters who intentionally dry fire, who intentionally train each week, and they use irons. Ben lives in a competition bubble in which it may be true that close to 100% use dots, but outside that bubble I believe the percentage is somewhat lower than that.
Yes way better than golf 😂
I'm a big fan of dots but I do think there's an argument to be made that they aren't for everyone or every situation.
Paul Howe is Matt Prankas father lol
Red dots are for professionals in my opinion, as in people who shoot alot or carry a gun professionly. I have been in combat in the military (just to preface my next point) and I experimented with airsoft last year since I hadn't been in a dynamic cqb situation in years. I noticed that irons weren't much slower (using g19 clone) and that in dim environments where I didn't want to use a light it would've been hard to see thru the window clearly if I was playing peek a boo with someone during a shootout. I carry a snub nose with irons, because I'm not a professional just a guy who wants protection that's comfortable to carry. Red dots are superior for accuracy and speed but also I think it's a pro tool and unnecessary for non pros.
You were in combat and you carry a revolver? Didn’t you learn that fire superiority is crucial? Didn’t you use most of your ammo to suppress and provide cover for your team?
Dynamic CQB?
You never even got a pamphlet from a recruiter.
POG Spotted.
"I'm a brovet and only the government should own assault rifles. All I need is my trusty 12ga"
I own a dozen ARs and a bunch of other non sense. I've had red dots on pistols. I think you insecure nerds took my comment the wrong way.
It's more like this: I was a professional and no I was not a "pog" I was in 2/75 so plz stop acting like a d bag and try to be objective. I am not saying dots shouldn't be carried by civilians. I said it is unnecessary. I think you guys wrap your identity around this shit a bit much.
In regards to Paul Howe. Maybe you guys teaching two different things. You're teaching shooting as an expert shooter. He's teaching gunfighting as a guy that's been in a lot of gunfights. They seem similar, but I'm not sur they are. The critically important skills in one may not be as high a priority in the other and visa versa. It's not apples and oranges, but it may be tangerines and oranges.
rip John meadows though
Was there this much "discussion" when people started putting RDS on their carbines? Cuz I feel like no one talks about shooting irons on carbines unless it's a specific training thing. At the end of the day, who cares? There will always be the muppet old guys talking crap from the balcony. set in their old ways
Bro it was a big thing. I remember talking to guys that served in the 60s-80s and they didn't trust them at all. The 90s helped a lot with people starting to trust them.
It was. The other commenter is correct, the first aimpoints were iffy. I used the Trijicon reflex from 96-00, by then the aimpoints were good. We rarely used M4s except in practice.
Red dots on rifles are 15-20 years ahead of red dots on pistols maturity wise.
It was not until the late 2000s that red dots on rifles were considered default equipment.
The RMR was introduced in 2009, and it was really the first commercially viable pistol red dot and they still had a lot of problems either way failures. The Jpoint and Doctor optics that came before it were even worse.
I first started using RMRs in 2010 and broke 5 of them from 2010 to 2015, all in less than 3000 rounds.
Red Dots on handguns today are dramatically better than they were even 5 years ago.
I carry with irons because it is what I am used to and I am too lazy to / don't want to get my gun milled for a red dot.
If I buy a new CCW I will probably get one that is optics ready though.
I have a Ruger MkII .22LR pistol with a Tasco propoint red dot scope that I have been shooting since I was a kid, but that was before slide ride dots were a thing on carry guns.
Note how everyone brings up low probability edge cases to justify their beliefs to avoid changing or trying new things.
I've had my iron sites break and seen it happen to a handful of others over the years. It's highly improbable, but it can and does happen from time to time. So do other strange and other improbable things. I'm not removing my iron sites because it's possible for them to fail. You need to take a mature look at the probabilities of what you may have to deal with based on your use case.
99% of people who aren't military are never going to be crawling through the mud with their gun. Coming up with extreme edge cases where something may fail isn't a good argument against it.
@@jayjason423 If it's for work you use an appropriate holster and gear set up. Rugged enclosed dots are a thing.
More to the point, if you're on the ground with a gun as a civilian or police officer it's probably because you've been tackled so you're dealing with an engagement at or near point black range. So having a dot fail under those circumstances doesn't leave you as helpless as many would have you believe.
Where would this fantasy mud wrestling take place?
More on glock 45 vs 34?
For two different purposes
@@HWG-wm8ld wonder what the benefit of one over the other would be if they both have optics
I don’t get these guys that say that a battery can die in them so they don’t like dots for that. The one commentor said he’s “had batteries fail on him too many times“. Either this guy is the laziest person I’ve ever heard of or I call bullshit on his comment. Optics can get 50,000 hours of life on a battery. Let’s say you’re someone that likes to keep his dot brighter. Let’s cut that by more than half and say you’ll get 20,000 hours. That’s still over two years! Or worse case 10,000 hours. That’s still more than a year. You mean to tell me you can’t figure out to change your battery once a year? Is it that you can’t afford a $3.50 battery? Or are you just lazy? I think he may just be using that as an excuse to not want to learn how to use a dot. Maybe he doesn’t like to train.
That, or he bought a shit battery. Not all 2032s are equal.
In the last RDS course I was in 3/5 of the sights had catastrophic failures. The battery is just another potential failure point.
I'm just tired of the "if you don't use a red dot, you're stuck in the past" people. I do on my rifles, I just don't on my handguns. I continue to see stories of people in gunfights using irons and being very effective inside of 20 yards. Just look at the police activity channel and their bodycam videos.
Your pistol is on you for protection when you’re away from home and will be used to defend yourself. Your rifles are not on you when away from home. The chances are higher something will happen when not in the safety of your home and you are more likely to take a longer shot outside than inside. Smarts
@@HWG-wm8ld data shows the shots aren't that long though. They're 5 yards or so. Unless you want to assemble your carry around the edge case where you have to shoot at 50 yards against a mass shooter, which could theoretically happen, but that's not the sphere of a concealed carry handgun. Any handgun will falter against a rifle and armor at that range. More likely you have multiple attackers, but that is going to be an up close situation too
the main areas most people agree on where red dots excel are 1) bad eyesight 2) 30-50 yard shots 3) multiple targets at ranges of 7-10 yards or so. For the vast majority of realistic scenarios either irons or red dots meet both or some argue irons are better, but really both could probably do the same thing
How tf are fudds ending up in your comment sections in the first place?
It’s getting bad. The more popular his channel gets, the more it’s recommended to the rubes asking to validate their guns and such.
im that weirdo in there throwing two mags through the bullseye with my s2c and romeo-x compact. I don't compete im just a weirdo who lives close to the range
Are they axes?
I prefer a laser over a red dot. Faster on target out of a pocket holster; like old west gunfighter style! Laser doesn't interfere with iron sights. Laser can be a little harder to see on distant target in daylight situations, but for reasonable, justifiable self-defense distances a laser gives me more confidence that the other guy gets punched in the face first!
Appreciate the thought provoking content, and you are right: the shooting sport is much better than golf!
Dr Evil prefers “lasers” too.
In my experience lasers are pointless.
If you're close enough to point shoot, they're not needed (and what do you do if laser doesn't display on target? Have you trained for that?).
And if you're further away, you need to aim down your sights, lasers won't replace irons or a red dot.
Having a laser under barrel doesn't interfere with iron sights. Been training with iron sights for 40 years and have been skeptical of lasers and red dots until my eyesight became an issue and I had to get prescription glasses. Put a red dot on my tactical shotgun and I was sold on the merits of red dots, but I put one on my handgun and it was a different story.
Absolutely need to train a lot with that red dot! And they are not conducive to pocket carry and slow my presentment considerably. Not to mention environmental issues that clouds glass lenses. Of course I have that same problem with my eyeglasses, which is why I don't trust my life to them or red dots. Lasers and open sights are a good combo and don't interfere with each other or your carry method.
Expecting red-dot life is same than guns is very optimistic. A gun is supposed to manage several thousands of shots. I dont think so many reddots can support 30K shots. I see every month red dots failing with less of 10K shots
Which red dots are you seeing fail?
Dude I mean….on a carry gun? If you have to use it you’re going to lose a nice red dot to an evidence locker…..just carry a G19 plain with Trijicon irons. They’re ugly anyway and reliable as hell. My opinion is that they just get in the way on just about any handgun.
This logic is insane. In the 1 in a million chance you use your $1200 gun/dot combo, you'll lose it... so just use irons and lose 600 bucks instead.
Doesn't that sound dumb as hell? Also, anyone who shoots is outshooting the value of their gun/dot every couple months in ammo cost.
Trijicon irons are almost as much as a 407k anyway?
So I "lose" it for a little while in an evidence locker. I've got a ton of money in high end automotive tools. You think I'm scared to use Snap-on wrenches because I might scratch them?
it's a tool. Buy the tool based on how it'll be used. Yeah, my carry gun has an optic. Yeah, if I use it, the cops are going to take it for at least a little while. No, I don't care. Because I want to be in a position to care, which means using the best tool I can afford and knowing how to use it.
The rubes are getting heavy on this channel. Dude has to be baiting