Ive been reading about this stuff for a long while now. But watching your videos just got something to click. I finally understand the importance and function of these specs. Greatly appreciate. Keep doing what your doing
Hexibass does a far better job of it. Goes into more detail and is more informitive. This video is a good start, dont get me wrong but needs more. For starters, BL for DVC drivers is always calculated while the driver is wired in series becuase it yields a larger BL figure.
Nice channel. I have learned a lot of this from books and forums, but I am thrilled that you have put so much together such a well organized format. Specific request: Can you make a video about making bass instrument cabs and the parameters that are important in it?
The part where you describe how drivers can cut off part of the wave form. That's called clipping and is actually pretty hard on the motor. That's what causes most of the heat. It can also cause the windings to delaminate from the former which is what makes that scratchy noise we all never want to hear. It can be equally damaging to under power a sub too. Running out of electrical headroom is hard on the amp and can also cause significant heat in the speaker motor especially on the stiffer drivers. If the amp can't overcome the mechanical resistance of the driver all the current it can generate still gets dumped into the coil. If it can't move enough to dissipate the heat, it fries. Great video man. I wish the world had more people like us who truly understand this stuff.
What he is describing has nothing to do with the amplifier clipping. Clipping can increase the power seen by the speaker because it electrically flattens the top of the waveform increasing the average output and at the same time limiting the movement of the speaker somewhat decreasing it's ability to cool itself which you mentioned. Yes, amplifier clipping can be hard on both the voice coil and the amplifier itself but that isn't what he is referring to. He is referring to the electromechanical limits of the motor assembly.
Hi there. I am wanting to run two 8inch subs both at 500 rms recommended but advertise 4000w max power. I dont want to run an 8000w amp for two subs that im wanting to run at 500w each. would a 1ohm capable 1000w or 2000w work more than fine? and how do i know if im running the correct amount of watts through the speakers?
Yeah, 500w on an 8" should already be plenty for them, 4000w would likely result in a new bit of space debris. If each sub is a dual 2 ohm, a 2000w at 1 ohm will do, if they're both 1 ohm, a 1000w at 1 ohm should suffice.
That was an excellent explanation of Vas! I never really understood that spec. As far as sensitivity, I would stick with "one watt, one meter". The 2.83 volts applies ONLY to 8Ω drivers. A lower impedance driver will pull more current, thus, more wattage from that voltage, falsely producing more SPL.(a 4Ω speaker driven at 2.83 volts will in fact, draw 2 watts) Using wattage as the metric completely takes speaker impedance out of play.
Remember sensitivity of the driver is measured with the driver mounted in a wall, so is only comparable for a large sealed box. Smaller subs with powerful magnets won't usually score very well in this regard but will work well if you use a horn cab which will convert the sensitivity, and will also get low in compact vented/passive radiator cabs - though more power hungry in this sort of box. If you want to use large vented boxes you are better off with a larger lightweight cone driver like a PA subwoofer driver, though they might not be as moisture resistant and the box will take up more space in the car but you will get more bass before you need to upgrade your alternator. As far as "convertible efficiency" (whether you speaker is a high torque motor in the wrong "gear" to drive the air or just weak and wasteful of current), the driver with low electrical Q but with heavy cone is more useful in a horn. High electrical Q or weak motor on a heavy cone (Imagine a DC audio woofer with a funky pup motor) and a wasteful overhung coil isn't much use even in a horn, so you can't improve the efficiency of it nearly as much.
@@TimpBizkit You make a good point on "overhung" voice coils, where only a fraction of the coils length is in the magnetic gap. It GREATLY reduces sensitivity, but, what you get in return, is uniform "BL" for the entire "X-max" of the driver. That means, you drive it with more power, for much better accuracy at a given SPL. If you remember the old Peavey Black widow drivers, they were a focused magnetic geometry, where they used a very small coil in a thick magnetic gap. Those drivers had several advantages. First, they were very sensitive. Second, they would operate at high frequencies very efficiently. That allowed a 15" driver to be paired with a compression loaded horn, with no need for a "midrange" driver. They would work clear up to 2 kHz, and we usually crossed over at 1.2 kHz. The disadvantage, was very limited cone excursion, before the coil jumped out of the magnetic gap. These speakers did more at 200 Watts RMS, than many modern speakers do, at 1,000 watts. The problem was, they were only good down to about 40 Hz, They just didn't have enough excursion to get down to 30 Hz.They did have a rather high Fs, and a very light cone. They were a lot like a musical instrument speaker, like you would find in a guitar amplifier. The takeaway: Efficient, but limited.
I think with Vas it's more equivalent to a rigid plunger the same surface area as the Sd of the driver - the projected area of the cone perpendicular to its in and out motion. Atmospheric pressure air usually needs about 0.01 bar of this pressure per % compression for small close to linear compressions. The Vas (if measured at sea level) is dependent only on suspension compliance Cms and area Sd. Cms is the number of millimetres a cone will move off centre with a Newton of force on it.
4:55 aren't they always tuned below Fs? don't speaker move the least on a port resonance frequency so it will make its life easier on a lower frequencies and actually prevent damage? (ofc if subsonic tuned right so it wont go lower the port tune freq)
Sometimes tuned below Fs, not always. Can be done, heck I do it myself all the time, I think its more of a SQ thing not tuning below to avoid some harmonics which can form. Some drivers though have stiff/heavy enough cone and a strong motor can play below Fs just fine, and sound clean. Tuning below Fs is good for controlling excursion though, especially in larger boxes.
@@Dakoustics just to clear things up a bit, are we talking about free air resonance or resulting speaker + box volume resonance? i think tuning port to Fs and higher is what spl guys do(and on a cheap woofers to give some wow effect on a most common 40 or 60hz frequencies). tuning it lower is done in order to extend frequency shelf a bit, because speaker efficiency below fs drops drastically, so port gives some extra 5-8hz or more with eq'ing.. and makes everything on its resonance a 20+ ms group delay humming hell, cant see someone sane actually enjoying that on a working frequency range.
@@Timsturbs Free air resonance, Fs, whereas resonance in a box is Fb or Fc, can't remember specifically, but Fb sounds familiar. And yes, thats all 100% correct. The only difference is I'd say its less common for a manufacturer, such as JBL, to tune below resonance, but we as educated and free humans can tune into the single digits if we so desire. I can't remember specifically why I suggested not to tune below Fs, though I believe its more due to this video being focused at beginners.
I did that Like and Subscribe thing and you've been putting out steady content, I love it! Now . . .we need to put a Darkoustics build up against a Budget Audiophile build, LOL!
@@Dakoustics I can't wait to see that video! I'll definitely be on the lookout for that. I'm wondering if Darkoustics and Budget Audiophile ever did a friendly competition, would we want to see how inexpensively we could build something like a full range tower or a sub? Set a budget and go from there? Or would we just go all out, go for broke and see what we can do. I'm not really into car audio but I and my friend have put together some killer home theater speakers. He's a WIZARD with crossovers and electronics, so we have so much fun with that. I'm more of a motorsports guy, home audio is my "off season" hobby. I do love your horn builds and would love to see more, please please PLEASE get some more of those when time and funding allows!
I once bought a solid speaker system with 6000 watts output. Used to draw 0.5 amps from the outlet at full volume 😂😂😂 Cost a dollar, so it was worth it. For parts. Quick calc: 0.5A @220vac = 110watts, class D amp rated at ~80% efficiency, Actual output
sure, any sub can be used for any box, the ebp gives an idea of how big it'll need to be, so for 48 the ideal box would be bigger than a similar sub with ebp of 70, main reason it's a suggestion and not a law
Dak: I have some vintage speakers, one of the large 12" drivers was sounding bad, we took it apart and it looks like the voice coil was stuck to the spider. We cleaned everything out now. We slowly trying to get replacement parts, but none are around, so, I purchased a matching set of 12" drivers with with way more wattage than the previous, but when we played them, I realized our crossover didn't match. Do you have a guide on choosing the right or upgrade on the crossovers? I love the cabinets on these old speakers, I don't mind changing out what I need to keep these up and running. I also have a 20 year Infinity speaker that needs a new crossover as my tweeter is not functioning properly? Any suggestions?
I'm not sure exactly if voice coil inductance itself is a major factor in designing a crossover, though I do know a speaker of the same resistance is required. Possibly they were connected reverse phase which would likely make the overlap area sound quiet and wierd, which could be the "didn't match" sound. Crossovers are a bit of a pain, premade crossovers are fairly common, all which is required is speaker impedance and crossover frequency, and to a lesser extent wattage. I know Dayton make a few different ones, even 3-way crossovers. There are also crossover calculators online which make the whole calculation process way easier. My knowledge of crossovers is limited, but I've heard from others the most basic crossover upgrades are replacing iron core inductors with open air inductors, and replacing old or low quality capacitors with high quality audio caps. Even improving solder joins can yield higher sound quality. Also regarding tweeter not working properly, the most basic crossover for a tweeter is simply a capacitor in series with it, and there will be a capacitor in there somewhere which may have failed.
I'm in a dilemma. Should i keep using my focal f40th 10" sub or should i get the focal utopia m sub10wm? Please help. As i just moved the focal f40th speakers and tweeters to the rear and have the utopia m 3 way active in the front. 6wm at doors, 3.5wm and tbm are at the front A pillars. My current sub is in a sealed 1.041 Ft3 box.
Depends, at face value the f40th 10" sub should be fine, but if you think your system is lacking depth, say low 30s/upper 20s region might be worth considering the sub10wm, although a 2 ft3 box will be more suitable for the sub10wm. If you haven't yet treated your current sub box, could be another upgrade to consider.
Thank you for a Video that is so on point and relevant for anyone using speaker design software. Having all this background info so clearly explained is Golden. I only wish this type of info was so easily available back in the 70s and 80s when I was interested in quality audio. Only now 40 years later do I have an interest rekindled.
I'm trying to make a DIY build but I can't find the drivers from somewhere in Europe, and from the US the shipping is so high, somewhere from EU I can make it work with EU advantages, but every time I search the websites are us ones,one website was asking 1000€ for a bherenger nx 6000 I was able after a lot of searching to find it for 386€ from EU website
Great video, I have 2 questions though. So I understand MMS and BL but what should a good sub be around For example I'm looking at a 15-inch sub with a MMS of 318.305g and BL of 14.898. Is this good, Thanks.
A good, general sub box for a 6.5" driver would be around 10 Litres, ported, tuned around 40Hz. If you have the specifications, I can suggest downloading WinISD and testing different boxes and tunings.
How would a sub with an underhung voice coil play into making it out of the magnet gap? Would a lot of power do it and can it damage it this way? Thanks.
good question, I'd expect it to be the same as an overhung of the same Xmax, but I'd also expect an underhung voice coil to have a lower Xmax on average than its counterpart overhung subwoofer. It shouldn't do too much damage unless the coil comes free of the gap, and if the sub doesn't have an extended pole piece, which a low profile sub might not have, its more likely to get free, but I wouldn't say its particular likely, and not much more likely than a regular overhung voice coil
@@572012myo In general if you are pushing a sub that hard you would have rising distortion and dynamic compression. Both of what you want to avoid for good sound.
Need more info, if you mean you wanna be just as loud with a single 10" as your 2 12"s on 300w total, since the box is also smaller, and smaller means less efficient, could be something like 1000w RMS.
I would say a subwoofer is designed only for low frequencies, and a woofer can do some midrange. Woofer can do around 50Hz to 500Hz, subwoofer does around 80Hz down to 30, 20 or even lower.
I am planning to put a 21” 2,000rms woofer in a T-42 enclosure. Would this woofer sound better that the intended woofer from Cerwin Vega which is. 1,000 rms power l? I believe the gap of this woofer is 1.6.
Most drivers should work, a driver with a very low power handling might not work in such a box, but a more powerful driver should be fine. I can't say if it will sound better or not. Worth testing
I wonder why you didn't cover impedance rise while playing. A 4ohm sub is not going to see around 125 watts out of a 250 watt rated amp at 2 ohm, even if the amp is rated 125 watts at 2. The impedance of the speaker will rise, often doubling it's own impedance, resulting in even half that power.
A couple reasons. Most amplifiers are constant voltage, variable current, and most speakers are designed around this in order to get a flat frequency curve. In order to be on the safe side I wouldn't tell anyone to run an amplifier below its rated impedance. If a driver is 4 Ohms, and is DC 3.2, when it's playing at its tuning frequency, say 40Hz, it'll be pinned right at that 4 Ohm mark. With speakers, too, in the "linear zone", which is still perfectly playable, they remain 4 Ohms, box rise has no influence. SPL is quite a specific topic in the world of audio, and most people, and I'm going to say 90% of hobbyists who are looking for a subwoofer for a home theatre as a project, isn't going to ring the neck of every component for 0.13dB. All above mentioned, check out my "all about impedance" video where I briefly mention fighting box rise to get the most power, its near-ish the beginning too.
@@Dakoustics You don't have to run an amplifier below it's rated impedance, I'm just saying matching amps and subs is not just look at the numbers and match them. Say you have a 4 ohm sub, rated for 200 watts RMS. Buying an amplifier that outputs 200 watts RMS at 4 ohms would literally result in only half the power in most cases. You'd be better off buying an amplifier that gives around 300 watts in MOST cases, just because you have a small buffer and because most people don't have a clue how to fight impedance rise when they're just starting out with their home systems, having 100 watts more in your pocket doesn't hurt at all. I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say.
@@gianstevens7918 Ah yeah, I must've, I do suggest to my mates to run a slightly more powerful amp than their subs for exactly what you mentioned, eg. one of them recently got a 250w RMS sub, and I suggested he get an amp capable of 350w. Heck even I run 1000w RMS into a 500w RMS sub.
Unless you’re lowering the amp’s power with the gain wouldn’t that overpower the sub when you’re not experiencing resistance rise? And in that case what is the benefit beyond plenty of clean power? Or is the extra power not an issue since it’s not constant?
Some drivers with 4Ohm in specs can easily have 1Ohm at some frequencies. You have to check an amplifier specs. Otherwise you’ll be replacing fuses very often.
What will play more spl? One 12" sub 4 ohm Or 2x 12" sub 8 ohm (4+4=8ohm) On a say 100watt amp that onle can handle 4 ohm. I treory they (1 or 2 subs ~ 4 or 8 ohm) will play the same spl right Thanks
There are some great spl calculators online. As far as I know, adding a sub and splitting the power would decrease spl a good bit, I might be wrong though.
180degrees 180degrees box design and the environment the enclosures are in, for example, trunk, back seAt, underneath seat, free air etc, will be one if not the biggest factor that influence the spl capabilities. Some vehicles shapes and cabin characteristics will actually make you lose spl when adding a second subwoofer and doubling enclosure size and power say in a trunk build , due to the way the pressure in the trunk and vehicle will now be different with adding more volume in the trunk, affecting wave lengths and reflections they were in your favor before you made box bigger and added another subwoofer. Test test test!!! spl doesn’t follow the rules alot of the times because user errors or forgetting that changing too many variables at one time will never give you conclusive data. It’s all physics and math, but if you are not extremely precise, it’s not going to be much help trying to be “semi” stern on math and physics equations.
Really not such a thing as a “ cleanest sounding sub” The highest end JL Sub will sound like shit on a cheap ass amp Start with a nice Amp then worry about subs Any decent sub is going to sound clean at 2ohm final impeadance and up
I love your videos man, I feel you are pretty knowledgeable when it comes to knowing why a lot of the components we use in car audio work the way they do, or at least know a process to which we could find out why or how things work; if we had the proper equipment to do said necessary tests. My question is this, how are car audio companies still getting away with releasing only the t/s small parameters to their customers which we and they know aren’t ideal for modeling, when they could spend a little money and get a klippel and give us the large signal parameters and we as the customers could have a better idea of how a subwoofer will perform in our specific setups? I think every company that sells subwoofers should have one, and if they don’t, maybe we should boycott them and then maybe they will invest in themselves to give us a better product which would make us want to invest in them!!!
Yeah, test equipment to really optimise drivers is something all companies should have. Klippels are very expensive for a home gamer, but for a sub manufacturer it should fit into budget, especially since its an investment towards better products. I suppose they mainly prey on the ignorant. T/S parameters historically have been good enough for modelling, as only recently have people been going far above 2.83v, which is pretty common for regular listening. It'll be interesting to see the future of sub modelling, I'm currently investigating this subject, as in how small environments affect speaker responses.
Dakoustics I couldn’t agree more. in a lot of my testing , I’ve only noticed dips around 6-8 dB in predicted frequency response on modeling software like winisd that is affected by the vehicles transfer function, which is still a big deal but not something that a proper eq can fix to get your predicted response. The big difference is where your gains start and roll off, which in some cases I’ve seen a boost from cabin gain be 17db or more at its highest peak say 50 hz, then not reach 0db again untill 28 hz. Which is a huge deal . Especially when you add those dips of 6-8 dB into consideration , your key frequencies for a sub say 20-50 hz can have a plot of +8db at 30 then back down to 0 at40hz, then rise to 17db at 50 hz then taper down again on its way to 100hz. Cabin gain and transfer function is something I’ve always wanted to invest proper testing into and have a sort of vehicle data base that can be uploaded to modeling software that can accurately predict your changes depending on sub and amp setups. But with everyone having different size enclosures and not to mention wall setups, it Throws all that data out the window. So I guess for now, test test test, and come up with your own data on how your vehicles cabin gain affects your response graphs is the only option which stinks lol
Hi Sir, kindly advice. Which sub will have deepest bass between two subs, all parameters held constant save; 1st Subwoofer Pioneer TS-D12D2.0 with 72db, 600 wats RMS dual core 2 ohms vs 2nd Subwoofer: pioneer TS w3003d4 with 96db, and 600 watts RMS 4 ohm dual core. Thank you Sir.
Second one has good specs, but first one has a lower resonance, and should be better for deeper bass. I can't see all the specs for the first one, so I can't say if its a better subwoofer in general.
I wish someone would explain to folks just how u do the math part of the sub ohm load out to the amp its self like 6 8ohms registers around 5.5 ohms that ur amp sees @ 4ohm bridge these are the things someone needs to make a video about fr so i could send ppl to the link fr cause i have gotten tired of trying to explain all of the mathematical part of any car audio fr fr like wiring 2 4 ohm speakers together with the positive to the negative changes the speakers ohm load to a 8ohm or u can wire positive positive and negative to negative and change the 2 4ohm to a 2 ohm load to the amp but it could be either stereo or bridge fr trust me trying to explain some of this stuff its took me years to learn isnt easy fr this is just a suggestion fr
ObOut of everything xmax is the most missused measurement and i is a peeve of mine, you are knowledgeable and know the deal but when other yourubers who are schooling viewers or reviewing subs miss use it like "it has a taller frame to increase xmax" or comparing subs saying this one has more more x max so it will move more or like its better because of the xmax number even tho ive tried to explain the formula abd how xmax can be decieving and how 2 identical subs but one has a thin top plate one has a thick top plate how the x max will be considerably different but yet function is pretty much the same or the one with the lower xmax may prrform better because with the thick plate it may have a larger magnetic field on the coil and linierarity is comparable.... you can have a really tall coil and really thick top plate and a sub with a little short coil and a super thin top plate and both have the exact x max but yet one is way more powerful and have way more excursion.....so Without knowing the coil winding width and top plate thickness xmax doesnt tell you much about performance. Basically xmax is missused for x mech ALL the time o youtube and drives me crazy.... These people need to educate themselves before attempting to educate otheres ya know...
So skar is putting evl 12’s in 2cube ported boxes when they should actually be provided in 1.25ish cube sealed boxes equating to .67ish volume after mass.. yet in thier site the recommend 1.75cube sealed or 2.0 ported? This to anyone is a red flag cause ported to sealed volumes should never be that close.. 1.25 to 2.0 though is about right.. Not the best thing out there but looking to throw a cheap build in my daughter car for her and as she mostly listens to county and pop with the occasional rap.. I’ve been wanting to throw a sgl ok 12 in a sealed box for her first before going too extreme. So I’m left wondering.. wtf they only offer ported boxes for these preloaded when they sit at .65 and clearly would do a little better sealed then ported.. and then based on that why do they say to put them in 1.75 cubes sealed lol.. something isn’t right here.. I know they are decent for the price speakers but come on.. Now I’m perplexed and gonna have to get software and diagram this out.. or just risk going 1.25ish and if my math is off being able to throw enough batting in there to maybe make it act like it’s 1.5ish? Fml.. this was supposed to be a simple project.. might just have to pony up and get a preloaded JL w6 as I trust the company years of competing in the past and just have to deal with sleeping on the couch for a week or two..
There is no answer since you did not state, extension requirements, space considerations, cost, amplifier power, output requirements or anything really.
Those factors were really bare minimum. It's a recommendation for people to avoid speakers with less specs than that. I've had people ask which sub is better, a sony or a pioneer, say, and each one had listed only those 4 specs. Honestly big brands not including more TS specs is ridiculous. If TS specs listings were common, I'd tell everyone to look for them.
I'm into professional audio I'v compared and tested subwoofers for car audio and audiophiles and it doesn't perform well in professional applications. Professional subwoofers are still the best.
Different manufacturers measure Xmax differently; there is not just one way to measure it. Therefore, one must either know how the company measured it, or just take the reported Xmax as true. Higher powered subs don't "They move more with more power." I'm sure that there are subs like you mention, but just more power in and of itself is not sufficient for your conclusion. It depends a lot on the enclosure. --come on. you know you are fibbing.
@@Dakoustics Well, IDK about in general. Any speaker can have any thermal limit. But what you are saying is that, .. if a speaker has a higher Xmax, then it must have a higher thermal limit because of the power and mechanical properties.
This has been the BEST video i've found that explains the subwoofer specs in an understandeable way. Thank you!!
Ive been reading about this stuff for a long while now.
But watching your videos just got something to click. I finally understand the importance and function of these specs.
Greatly appreciate. Keep doing what your doing
This is the best explanation of these stats I’ve found on UA-cam.
Could you please make a video on SQL vs SPL vs SQ Subwoofers and which brands make the best subwoofers in those respective categories.
Great video! Finally someone could explain some of the specs on a driver spec sheet
Hexibass does a far better job of it. Goes into more detail and is more informitive. This video is a good start, dont get me wrong but needs more. For starters, BL for DVC drivers is always calculated while the driver is wired in series becuase it yields a larger BL figure.
@@liamcooper5202 Proper T/S video coming in the near future ish time date month year
Your videos are really helpful. I just decided to build my first own sub and hence your info is really what I am looking for to get into details
🛑 I have watched and read a lot all of information regarding subwoofers from so-called professionals but this was the best video ever thank you.
Cheers, good to hear!
Nice channel. I have learned a lot of this from books and forums, but I am thrilled that you have put so much together such a well organized format.
Specific request: Can you make a video about making bass instrument cabs and the parameters that are important in it?
Very informative and descriptive video. Appreciate that. Thank you.
This video information is more useful than what you learn in university.
Nice job, I would have used a tool like winisd to provide a visual if you redo it. Also mentioning Hoffman's Iron Law would be good also.
The part where you describe how drivers can cut off part of the wave form. That's called clipping and is actually pretty hard on the motor. That's what causes most of the heat. It can also cause the windings to delaminate from the former which is what makes that scratchy noise we all never want to hear. It can be equally damaging to under power a sub too. Running out of electrical headroom is hard on the amp and can also cause significant heat in the speaker motor especially on the stiffer drivers. If the amp can't overcome the mechanical resistance of the driver all the current it can generate still gets dumped into the coil. If it can't move enough to dissipate the heat, it fries. Great video man. I wish the world had more people like us who truly understand this stuff.
What he is describing has nothing to do with the amplifier clipping. Clipping can increase the power seen by the speaker because it electrically flattens the top of the waveform increasing the average output and at the same time limiting the movement of the speaker somewhat decreasing it's ability to cool itself which you mentioned. Yes, amplifier clipping can be hard on both the voice coil and the amplifier itself but that isn't what he is referring to. He is referring to the electromechanical limits of the motor assembly.
This is the best explanation I’ve heard ? Super useful 👌👌
Hi there. I am wanting to run two 8inch subs both at 500 rms recommended but advertise 4000w max power. I dont want to run an 8000w amp for two subs that im wanting to run at 500w each. would a 1ohm capable 1000w or 2000w work more than fine? and how do i know if im running the correct amount of watts through the speakers?
Yeah, 500w on an 8" should already be plenty for them, 4000w would likely result in a new bit of space debris. If each sub is a dual 2 ohm, a 2000w at 1 ohm will do, if they're both 1 ohm, a 1000w at 1 ohm should suffice.
That was an excellent explanation of Vas! I never really understood that spec. As far as sensitivity, I would stick with "one watt, one meter". The 2.83 volts applies ONLY to 8Ω drivers. A lower impedance driver will pull more current, thus, more wattage from that voltage, falsely producing more SPL.(a 4Ω speaker driven at 2.83 volts will in fact, draw 2 watts) Using wattage as the metric completely takes speaker impedance out of play.
Remember sensitivity of the driver is measured with the driver mounted in a wall, so is only comparable for a large sealed box. Smaller subs with powerful magnets won't usually score very well in this regard but will work well if you use a horn cab which will convert the sensitivity, and will also get low in compact vented/passive radiator cabs - though more power hungry in this sort of box. If you want to use large vented boxes you are better off with a larger lightweight cone driver like a PA subwoofer driver, though they might not be as moisture resistant and the box will take up more space in the car but you will get more bass before you need to upgrade your alternator.
As far as "convertible efficiency" (whether you speaker is a high torque motor in the wrong "gear" to drive the air or just weak and wasteful of current), the driver with low electrical Q but with heavy cone is more useful in a horn. High electrical Q or weak motor on a heavy cone (Imagine a DC audio woofer with a funky pup motor) and a wasteful overhung coil isn't much use even in a horn, so you can't improve the efficiency of it nearly as much.
@@TimpBizkit You make a good point on "overhung" voice coils, where only a fraction of the coils length is in the magnetic gap. It GREATLY reduces sensitivity, but, what you get in return, is uniform "BL" for the entire "X-max" of the driver. That means, you drive it with more power, for much better accuracy at a given SPL. If you remember the old Peavey Black widow drivers, they were a focused magnetic geometry, where they used a very small coil in a thick magnetic gap. Those drivers had several advantages. First, they were very sensitive. Second, they would operate at high frequencies very efficiently. That allowed a 15" driver to be paired with a compression loaded horn, with no need for a "midrange" driver. They would work clear up to 2 kHz, and we usually crossed over at 1.2 kHz. The disadvantage, was very limited cone excursion, before the coil jumped out of the magnetic gap. These speakers did more at 200 Watts RMS, than many modern speakers do, at 1,000 watts. The problem was, they were only good down to about 40 Hz, They just didn't have enough excursion to get down to 30 Hz.They did have a rather high Fs, and a very light cone. They were a lot like a musical instrument speaker, like you would find in a guitar amplifier. The takeaway: Efficient, but limited.
A main point is “1W” rms. 2.83V is an example for the most popular coils.
I think with Vas it's more equivalent to a rigid plunger the same surface area as the Sd of the driver - the projected area of the cone perpendicular to its in and out motion. Atmospheric pressure air usually needs about 0.01 bar of this pressure per % compression for small close to linear compressions.
The Vas (if measured at sea level) is dependent only on suspension compliance Cms and area Sd. Cms is the number of millimetres a cone will move off centre with a Newton of force on it.
4:55 aren't they always tuned below Fs? don't speaker move the least on a port resonance frequency so it will make its life easier on a lower frequencies and actually prevent damage?
(ofc if subsonic tuned right so it wont go lower the port tune freq)
Sometimes tuned below Fs, not always. Can be done, heck I do it myself all the time, I think its more of a SQ thing not tuning below to avoid some harmonics which can form. Some drivers though have stiff/heavy enough cone and a strong motor can play below Fs just fine, and sound clean.
Tuning below Fs is good for controlling excursion though, especially in larger boxes.
@@Dakoustics just to clear things up a bit, are we talking about free air resonance or resulting speaker + box volume resonance?
i think tuning port to Fs and higher is what spl guys do(and on a cheap woofers to give some wow effect on a most common 40 or 60hz frequencies).
tuning it lower is done in order to extend frequency shelf a bit, because speaker efficiency below fs drops drastically, so port gives some extra 5-8hz or more with eq'ing..
and makes everything on its resonance a 20+ ms group delay humming hell, cant see someone sane actually enjoying that on a working frequency range.
@@Timsturbs Free air resonance, Fs, whereas resonance in a box is Fb or Fc, can't remember specifically, but Fb sounds familiar.
And yes, thats all 100% correct. The only difference is I'd say its less common for a manufacturer, such as JBL, to tune below resonance, but we as educated and free humans can tune into the single digits if we so desire.
I can't remember specifically why I suggested not to tune below Fs, though I believe its more due to this video being focused at beginners.
I did that Like and Subscribe thing and you've been putting out steady content, I love it! Now . . .we need to put a Darkoustics build up against a Budget Audiophile build, LOL!
Hmm, I might do something to do with home theatre soon, need to fix the T-line, I should do a video on it.
Something I might do is put the horn to the test for a 1:1 explosion loudness ratio home theatre system lmao
@@Dakoustics I can't wait to see that video! I'll definitely be on the lookout for that.
I'm wondering if Darkoustics and Budget Audiophile ever did a friendly competition, would we want to see how inexpensively we could build something like a full range tower or a sub? Set a budget and go from there? Or would we just go all out, go for broke and see what we can do.
I'm not really into car audio but I and my friend have put together some killer home theater speakers. He's a WIZARD with crossovers and electronics, so we have so much fun with that. I'm more of a motorsports guy, home audio is my "off season" hobby.
I do love your horn builds and would love to see more, please please PLEASE get some more of those when time and funding allows!
I once bought a solid speaker system with 6000 watts output. Used to draw 0.5 amps from the outlet at full volume 😂😂😂
Cost a dollar, so it was worth it. For parts.
Quick calc: 0.5A @220vac = 110watts,
class D amp rated at ~80% efficiency,
Actual output
2:00 3.4L for 6 inches is it for ported or sealed
i have a sub with a ebp of 48 can i use it for ported i really want to go loud..
sure, any sub can be used for any box, the ebp gives an idea of how big it'll need to be, so for 48 the ideal box would be bigger than a similar sub with ebp of 70, main reason it's a suggestion and not a law
Dak: I have some vintage speakers, one of the large 12" drivers was sounding bad, we took it apart and it looks like the voice coil was stuck to the spider. We cleaned everything out now. We slowly trying to get replacement parts, but none are around, so, I purchased a matching set of 12" drivers with with way more wattage than the previous, but when we played them, I realized our crossover didn't match. Do you have a guide on choosing the right or upgrade on the crossovers? I love the cabinets on these old speakers, I don't mind changing out what I need to keep these up and running. I also have a 20 year Infinity speaker that needs a new crossover as my tweeter is not functioning properly? Any suggestions?
I'm not sure exactly if voice coil inductance itself is a major factor in designing a crossover, though I do know a speaker of the same resistance is required.
Possibly they were connected reverse phase which would likely make the overlap area sound quiet and wierd, which could be the "didn't match" sound.
Crossovers are a bit of a pain, premade crossovers are fairly common, all which is required is speaker impedance and crossover frequency, and to a lesser extent wattage. I know Dayton make a few different ones, even 3-way crossovers. There are also crossover calculators online which make the whole calculation process way easier.
My knowledge of crossovers is limited, but I've heard from others the most basic crossover upgrades are replacing iron core inductors with open air inductors, and replacing old or low quality capacitors with high quality audio caps. Even improving solder joins can yield higher sound quality.
Also regarding tweeter not working properly, the most basic crossover for a tweeter is simply a capacitor in series with it, and there will be a capacitor in there somewhere which may have failed.
@@Dakoustics So you have a email address or facebook page I can write to you?
thanks to 4:55 i might be going with something other than a dc level 6 now. they are papercone for the most part.
I'm in a dilemma. Should i keep using my focal f40th 10" sub or should i get the focal utopia m sub10wm? Please help. As i just moved the focal f40th speakers and tweeters to the rear and have the utopia m 3 way active in the front. 6wm at doors, 3.5wm and tbm are at the front A pillars. My current sub is in a sealed 1.041 Ft3 box.
Depends, at face value the f40th 10" sub should be fine, but if you think your system is lacking depth, say low 30s/upper 20s region might be worth considering the sub10wm, although a 2 ft3 box will be more suitable for the sub10wm. If you haven't yet treated your current sub box, could be another upgrade to consider.
With multimeter you measure the dc resistance of the coil not the impedance
how do you feel about FI audio that usually do not list the Le spec on their subs
Highly valuable information. Cheers.
👍👍
Good info. How do you add blu tac.
Thank you for a Video that is so on point and relevant for anyone using speaker design software. Having all this background info so clearly explained is Golden. I only wish this type of info was so easily available back in the 70s and 80s when I was interested in quality audio. Only now 40 years later do I have an interest rekindled.
I'm trying to make a DIY build but I can't find the drivers from somewhere in Europe, and from the US the shipping is so high, somewhere from EU I can make it work with EU advantages, but every time I search the websites are us ones,one website was asking 1000€ for a bherenger nx 6000 I was able after a lot of searching to find it for 386€ from EU website
Great video, I have 2 questions though. So I understand MMS and BL but what should a good sub be around For example I'm looking at a 15-inch sub with a MMS of 318.305g and BL of 14.898. Is this good, Thanks.
Can You recommend me any brand ?
Depends, whats the sub for? And budget range?
Sir kindly tell me the best box design for 6.5" Subwoofer
A good, general sub box for a 6.5" driver would be around 10 Litres, ported, tuned around 40Hz. If you have the specifications, I can suggest downloading WinISD and testing different boxes and tunings.
How would a sub with an underhung voice coil play into making it out of the magnet gap? Would a lot of power do it and can it damage it this way? Thanks.
good question, I'd expect it to be the same as an overhung of the same Xmax, but I'd also expect an underhung voice coil to have a lower Xmax on average than its counterpart overhung subwoofer. It shouldn't do too much damage unless the coil comes free of the gap, and if the sub doesn't have an extended pole piece, which a low profile sub might not have, its more likely to get free, but I wouldn't say its particular likely, and not much more likely than a regular overhung voice coil
@@Dakoustics thanks. The sub is a Sundown NSV3 motor with the coil setup
@@Dakoustics it states nsv4 prototype on the box but it's similar to the 3
@@572012myo In general if you are pushing a sub that hard you would have rising distortion and dynamic compression. Both of what you want to avoid for good sound.
@@gregkramer5588 thanks. I'll be careful!
I’ll have to wary him this video about 50 times more but it’ll be worth it. Thanks man!!
Ok so I had 2 x 12s 150 RMS each so if I want run 1 10 inch how much RMS must that 10 inch be
Need more info, if you mean you wanna be just as loud with a single 10" as your 2 12"s on 300w total, since the box is also smaller, and smaller means less efficient, could be something like 1000w RMS.
@@Dakoustics thanks because I don't have a car anymore with plenty space options I got a bakkie now so need to look at something smaller
way you call subwoofer any speaker can go below 0 Hz they a only call woofer right ?
I would say a subwoofer is designed only for low frequencies, and a woofer can do some midrange. Woofer can do around 50Hz to 500Hz, subwoofer does around 80Hz down to 30, 20 or even lower.
I am planning to put a 21” 2,000rms woofer in a T-42 enclosure. Would this woofer sound better that the intended woofer from Cerwin Vega which is. 1,000 rms power l? I believe the gap of this woofer is 1.6.
Most drivers should work, a driver with a very low power handling might not work in such a box, but a more powerful driver should be fine. I can't say if it will sound better or not. Worth testing
So what's the best blue or the green one as in the video
I wonder why you didn't cover impedance rise while playing. A 4ohm sub is not going to see around 125 watts out of a 250 watt rated amp at 2 ohm, even if the amp is rated 125 watts at 2. The impedance of the speaker will rise, often doubling it's own impedance, resulting in even half that power.
A couple reasons. Most amplifiers are constant voltage, variable current, and most speakers are designed around this in order to get a flat frequency curve.
In order to be on the safe side I wouldn't tell anyone to run an amplifier below its rated impedance. If a driver is 4 Ohms, and is DC 3.2, when it's playing at its tuning frequency, say 40Hz, it'll be pinned right at that 4 Ohm mark.
With speakers, too, in the "linear zone", which is still perfectly playable, they remain 4 Ohms, box rise has no influence.
SPL is quite a specific topic in the world of audio, and most people, and I'm going to say 90% of hobbyists who are looking for a subwoofer for a home theatre as a project, isn't going to ring the neck of every component for 0.13dB.
All above mentioned, check out my "all about impedance" video where I briefly mention fighting box rise to get the most power, its near-ish the beginning too.
@@Dakoustics You don't have to run an amplifier below it's rated impedance, I'm just saying matching amps and subs is not just look at the numbers and match them. Say you have a 4 ohm sub, rated for 200 watts RMS. Buying an amplifier that outputs 200 watts RMS at 4 ohms would literally result in only half the power in most cases. You'd be better off buying an amplifier that gives around 300 watts in MOST cases, just because you have a small buffer and because most people don't have a clue how to fight impedance rise when they're just starting out with their home systems, having 100 watts more in your pocket doesn't hurt at all. I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say.
@@gianstevens7918 Ah yeah, I must've, I do suggest to my mates to run a slightly more powerful amp than their subs for exactly what you mentioned, eg. one of them recently got a 250w RMS sub, and I suggested he get an amp capable of 350w. Heck even I run 1000w RMS into a 500w RMS sub.
Unless you’re lowering the amp’s power with the gain wouldn’t that overpower the sub when you’re not experiencing resistance rise? And in that case what is the benefit beyond plenty of clean power? Or is the extra power not an issue since it’s not constant?
Some drivers with 4Ohm in specs can easily have 1Ohm at some frequencies. You have to check an amplifier specs. Otherwise you’ll be replacing fuses very often.
What will play more spl?
One 12" sub 4 ohm
Or
2x 12" sub 8 ohm (4+4=8ohm)
On a say 100watt amp that onle can handle 4 ohm.
I treory they (1 or 2 subs ~ 4 or 8 ohm) will play the same spl right
Thanks
There are some great spl calculators online. As far as I know, adding a sub and splitting the power would decrease spl a good bit, I might be wrong though.
2 subs because they can move more air!
180degrees 180degrees box design and the environment the enclosures are in, for example, trunk, back seAt, underneath seat, free air etc, will be one if not the biggest factor that influence the spl capabilities. Some vehicles shapes and cabin characteristics will actually make you lose spl when adding a second subwoofer and doubling enclosure size and power say in a trunk build , due to the way the pressure in the trunk and vehicle will now be different with adding more volume in the trunk, affecting wave lengths and reflections they were in your favor before you made box bigger and added another subwoofer. Test test test!!! spl doesn’t follow the rules alot of the times because user errors or forgetting that changing too many variables at one time will never give you conclusive data. It’s all physics and math, but if you are not extremely precise, it’s not going to be much help trying to be “semi” stern on math and physics equations.
@@jackmills5071 i dont think you understand the q. Thanks
@@JanisAbols3000 i dont think you understand the q. Thanks
Behringer 18inch pro is that a good speaker
I want the cleanest sounding subwoofer? Are JL good?
Sundown if ur looking to go massive power and stay clean asfuck but jl is definitely more of a Hi-Fi brand ...
JL are great for what you want... clean quality sound
Really not such a thing as a “ cleanest sounding sub”
The highest end JL Sub will sound like shit on a cheap ass amp
Start with a nice Amp then worry about subs
Any decent sub is going to sound clean at 2ohm final impeadance and up
I love your videos man, I feel you are pretty knowledgeable when it comes to knowing why a lot of the components we use in car audio work the way they do, or at least know a process to which we could find out why or how things work; if we had the proper equipment to do said necessary tests. My question is this, how are car audio companies still getting away with releasing only the t/s small parameters to their customers which we and they know aren’t ideal for modeling, when they could spend a little money and get a klippel and give us the large signal parameters and we as the customers could have a better idea of how a subwoofer will perform in our specific setups? I think every company that sells subwoofers should have one, and if they don’t, maybe we should boycott them and then maybe they will invest in themselves to give us a better product which would make us want to invest in them!!!
Yeah, test equipment to really optimise drivers is something all companies should have. Klippels are very expensive for a home gamer, but for a sub manufacturer it should fit into budget, especially since its an investment towards better products. I suppose they mainly prey on the ignorant. T/S parameters historically have been good enough for modelling, as only recently have people been going far above 2.83v, which is pretty common for regular listening. It'll be interesting to see the future of sub modelling, I'm currently investigating this subject, as in how small environments affect speaker responses.
Dakoustics I couldn’t agree more. in a lot of my testing , I’ve only noticed dips around 6-8 dB in predicted frequency response on modeling software like winisd that is affected by the vehicles transfer function, which is still a big deal but not something that a proper eq can fix to get your predicted response. The big difference is where your gains start and roll off, which in some cases I’ve seen a boost from cabin gain be 17db or more at its highest peak say 50 hz, then not reach 0db again untill 28 hz. Which is a huge deal . Especially when you add those dips of 6-8 dB into consideration , your key frequencies for a sub say 20-50 hz can have a plot of +8db at 30 then back down to 0 at40hz, then rise to 17db at 50 hz then taper down again on its way to 100hz. Cabin gain and transfer function is something I’ve always wanted to invest proper testing into and have a sort of vehicle data base that can be uploaded to modeling software that can accurately predict your changes depending on sub and amp setups. But with everyone having different size enclosures and not to mention wall setups, it Throws all that data out the window. So I guess for now, test test test, and come up with your own data on how your vehicles cabin gain affects your response graphs is the only option which stinks lol
What if I enjoy having to restart my car at stops.1:50
Nvx VCW154 a good sub, 20mm Xmax
Is 2 8" sub better then 12"?
depending on what speakers you use
Hi Sir, kindly advice. Which sub will have deepest bass between two subs, all parameters held constant save;
1st Subwoofer Pioneer TS-D12D2.0 with 72db, 600 wats RMS dual core 2 ohms vs
2nd Subwoofer: pioneer TS w3003d4 with 96db, and 600 watts RMS 4 ohm dual core.
Thank you Sir.
Second one has good specs, but first one has a lower resonance, and should be better for deeper bass. I can't see all the specs for the first one, so I can't say if its a better subwoofer in general.
I wish someone would explain to folks just how u do the math part of the sub ohm load out to the amp its self like 6 8ohms registers around 5.5 ohms that ur amp sees @ 4ohm bridge these are the things someone needs to make a video about fr so i could send ppl to the link fr cause i have gotten tired of trying to explain all of the mathematical part of any car audio fr fr like wiring 2 4 ohm speakers together with the positive to the negative changes the speakers ohm load to a 8ohm or u can wire positive positive and negative to negative and change the 2 4ohm to a 2 ohm load to the amp but it could be either stereo or bridge fr trust me trying to explain some of this stuff its took me years to learn isnt easy fr this is just a suggestion fr
I made an impedance video recently, sounds like it'd to the trick
great video
ObOut of everything xmax is the most missused measurement and i is a peeve of mine, you are knowledgeable and know the deal but when other yourubers who are schooling viewers or reviewing subs miss use it like "it has a taller frame to increase xmax" or comparing subs saying this one has more more x max so it will move more or like its better because of the xmax number even tho ive tried to explain the formula abd how xmax can be decieving and how 2 identical subs but one has a thin top plate one has a thick top plate how the x max will be considerably different but yet function is pretty much the same or the one with the lower xmax may prrform better because with the thick plate it may have a larger magnetic field on the coil and linierarity is comparable.... you can have a really tall coil and really thick top plate and a sub with a little short coil and a super thin top plate and both have the exact x max but yet one is way more powerful and have way more excursion.....so Without knowing the coil winding width and top plate thickness xmax doesnt tell you much about performance. Basically xmax is missused for x mech ALL the time o youtube and drives me crazy.... These people need to educate themselves before attempting to educate otheres ya know...
So skar is putting evl 12’s in 2cube ported boxes when they should actually be provided in 1.25ish cube sealed boxes equating to .67ish volume after mass.. yet in thier site the recommend 1.75cube sealed or 2.0 ported? This to anyone is a red flag cause ported to sealed volumes should never be that close.. 1.25 to 2.0 though is about right..
Not the best thing out there but looking to throw a cheap build in my daughter car for her and as she mostly listens to county and pop with the occasional rap.. I’ve been wanting to throw a sgl ok 12 in a sealed box for her first before going too extreme. So I’m left wondering.. wtf they only offer ported boxes for these preloaded when they sit at .65 and clearly would do a little better sealed then ported.. and then based on that why do they say to put them in 1.75 cubes sealed lol.. something isn’t right here.. I know they are decent for the price speakers but come on..
Now I’m perplexed and gonna have to get software and diagram this out.. or just risk going 1.25ish and if my math is off being able to throw enough batting in there to maybe make it act like it’s 1.5ish? Fml.. this was supposed to be a simple project.. might just have to pony up and get a preloaded JL w6 as I trust the company years of competing in the past and just have to deal with sleeping on the couch for a week or two..
Nice info, what language is this voice speaking?
Whats the best box for 2 of these www.crutchfield.com/S-hjetgFcC4Dt/p_049PWE302/MB-Quart-PWE-302.html
The question 'Which is better?' is still waiting for an answer
There is no answer since you did not state, extension requirements, space considerations, cost, amplifier power, output requirements or anything really.
It really is what you have room for and what you want to spend
very nice
American bass hd take 8k a pop two years and a 280 alt and extra batt
How many of you are watching this video with their subwoofer manual in their hand....???????????
The minimum specs...? You can't build an optimal box with only those. So...
Those factors were really bare minimum. It's a recommendation for people to avoid speakers with less specs than that. I've had people ask which sub is better, a sony or a pioneer, say, and each one had listed only those 4 specs. Honestly big brands not including more TS specs is ridiculous. If TS specs listings were common, I'd tell everyone to look for them.
@@Dakoustics Yeah, sometimes you really need to look for them.
I'm into professional audio I'v compared and tested subwoofers for car audio and audiophiles and it doesn't perform well in professional applications. Professional subwoofers are still the best.
log(x^3) is not as big as it’s supposed.
Español?
c
PMPO is s stupidity thing 👍👍👍
Different manufacturers measure Xmax differently; there is not just one way to measure it. Therefore, one must either know how the company measured it, or just take the reported Xmax as true. Higher powered subs don't "They move more with more power." I'm sure that there are subs like you mention, but just more power in and of itself is not sufficient for your conclusion. It depends a lot on the enclosure.
--come on. you know you are fibbing.
Generally higher power handling subs are also capable of more excursion, and having plenty of Xmax is never a bad thing.
@@Dakoustics Well, IDK about in general. Any speaker can have any thermal limit. But what you are saying is that, .. if a speaker has a higher Xmax, then it must have a higher thermal limit because of the power and mechanical properties.
?
If you intend to play actual music you need a lot more info than that to design a proper enclosure.
You are more on explanation which found so boring
so.. you thought a 15 minute video on choosing the right subwoofer was not going to be mainly explanation?