The TV System Debate NEEDS to End | Zenless Zone Zero
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- Опубліковано 19 жов 2024
- This debate about ZZZ's TV Mode needs to come to an end. It's been two years, and we're still talking about it. Now allow me to be a hypocrite and add myself into the pile with this video.
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They stated before that they were bringing it back after reworking it. They never changed their mind. It was in the Dev livestream.
I was quite devastated when they removed it from the main story. I thought they’d become like HSR where you just run around the map, talk to a couple of npcs, then suddenly enter into the combat with no cut scenes or dialogue whatsoever. However, they actually handled the story telling quite well in Tour de Inferno. So, Im now mostly against using it for the main story. If they wanna keep it, keep it as a mini puzzle that only Phaethon could solve, a scene transition in case they have scenes that are very far apart from each other, or something else that isn’t essential to the story.
I still love it in Hollow Zero though. I think the Hollow Zero itself is a bit too long, and it’s not exactly TV’s fault.
Once you've unlocked the Blitz mode HZ is great imo. I hated the pressure mechanic even if the rest of it was alright. Blitz ignores pressure and takes considerably less time.
@@TerrorbyteTC And exploration mode gives you way more resonia than Blitz mode, which helps you a lot to achieve bigger score in Inferno Reap.
So both have a reason to exist
They should just make it an option to skip the TV mode or just ignore the TV haters and improve it and make something they want to make and if people don't like it they can leave the game and never come back
I want the TV mode to be the best it can be and if people can't accept it for what it is they shouldn't be playing the game
Guess I'm your polar opposite then. I love the TV mode, including more story driven comissions, where I basicly just read a book with animations. I consider combat to be repetitive and while I'm fine, if it stays, I wouldn't mind it gone.
@OKIGorgon I can see why you say that. Though, I just want to emphasize that I do like TV mode overall. I just don't think it's irreplaceable.
@@HeroMysticLYX Same with combat for. me. It could be made more complex, or changed to other genre and the game would still be as fun. That's the thing with ZZZ community. Half thinks TV is main part and combat is the odd one out, while other half thinks the opposite. And because opinions are so balanced in quantity, it's hard for devs to figure a way onwards.
@@OKIGorgon I find this really interesting cause I hadn't considered that someone would play ZZZ for anything other than the combat. A mistake on my end, definitely, but out of curiosity, what would you change about the characters/marketing/monetization to allow a more exploration based, puzzle based TV mode game to succeed? Or is the combat necessary in your eyes to provide the funding for the rest of the game that you primarily enjoy?
Personally TV mode is fine, it's a way to get some fun story and character moments, an occasional puzzle (some annoying ones but mostly fine), inbetween the spikes of combat (which is definitely my favourite part 😅).
@@TerrorbyteTC Monetization, huh? As it stands right now, combat seems mostly to be an excuse to show off characters to me, so if gacha system is supposed to bring in money, some sort of combat to see characters do stuff is necessary. Now making that combat more engaging would be a plus to me. It can be done by for example:
1. Making movesets more unique to characters (like only cat/dog etc Thirens being able to dodge or blocking attack with an assist being exclusive to defense characters) to make planning more important. This would kinda make it more like Devil May Cry.
2. Leaning into you being just a Proxy, by switching genre to TPP RTS (imagine mix of Stage Battles from Brütal Legend and Majima Construction mode from Yakuza Kiwami 2), so you can still see characters fighting from up close, but making fighting something that requires thinking instead of mashing.
Of course I understand making such a dramatic change might be a bit too late now. When it comes to making ZZZ more enjoyable to me, I'd relegate combat to side content, while adding ability to affect outcomes of comissions' TV mode events based on characters in your team (just like in Hollow Zero), making replaying comissions to find them an added bit of fun.
I myself just prefer a mix. The combat is goated and I love it, but the TV is good for giving us different gameplay challenges, plus it's a cool and novel way to do dungeon exploration. And I love the vibe. I love the combat but I don't want to sacrifice the TV mode for it. I like having a balance.
Plus it gives Fairy agency in the story.
"the prophecy " is peak optional content
It really is.
A lot of the outcry surrounding TV mode seems rooted in the unshakeable belief that "TV mode is bad, factually, and if you like it, get rekt lol". There's a vocal group pushing back against people simply advocating for improvements and iteration on the current system and not the ripcord pulling "lets remove it from main story and put 2 exploration missions for the whole chapter" that hoyo pulled with the new update. To these people, it's non-negotiable fact that the tv gameplay is terrible and that it isn't salvageable which is immediately disproven by the large backlash to the change.
I loved the tv mode since chapter 1, as a TTRPG player- it reminds me of the storytelling potential of battlemaps used in games like Dungeons and Dragons and pathfinder, except more tile-event based. It's a remarkably cheap way to produce more story-per-content than if you had to model out entire locales for any story bit you intended to explore. I see where people come from when they say that TV haters can't imagine an apple rotating in their head, or that they have tiktok brain rot levels of attention span issues, it's because they don't understand theatre of the mind. They typically actually don't see any merit in the storytelling potential of TV mode beyond the proxies kind of losing their role in the story, as seen in the Jane chapter/Tour de inferno, where the proxies serve fundamentally zero purpose, attacking the core "fantasy" of the player character.
I've seen it happen time and time again with games I loved and saw change in real time to pander to an outside audience, typically called "tourists" by more unstable gamers lol. It's in a company's best interests, I know, to cast as wide a net as possible for the sake of profits. But as the old adage goes, "A game made for everyone, is a game made for no one." I've seen the core identity and player base of different franchises defiled and neutered for the sake of a common audience that is super non-committal and often demands that companies pander to their gameplay/story sensibilities and then leave it worse than it was. Some games that come to mind are World of Warcraft and Dungeons and Dragons (as seen during the huge 3.5edition splits).
Awesome video, Hero, you deserve more subs. Hope you do more video essays like this in the future, this think-piece really makes me want to do a larger discussion about this on my actual channel someday. Sorry for wall of texting, if I had more time, I would have written a shorter message.
Regarding the last statement: Would you happen to be a Josh Strife Hayes fan?
As a TTRPG player, I've played games that do the sokoban/grid dungeon thing considerably better both in terms of gameplay and story telling. I'm confused that you think this shallow approximation of those is worth defending, epecially in a game that seems ashamed of it and instead markets itself as an action RPG aka a realtime combat game. The audience complaining is the audience they were aiming for, not outsiders.
I actually think the TV mode COULD be improved and have a great number of detailed explanations on how to do it. But I also think it's a huge amount of work and it'd be better suited to a game that dedicates itself to the mechanic instead of it being a maligned sideshow that gates the content they advertise the game actually being about.
It bothers me, as well, that people who seem to have taken up the TV standard can't help but throw out "durr ADHD" insults at those who don't like them. Because it means that on some level they're genuinely unaware that the TV system IS an ADHD simulator. You can't go 5 seconds in it without being interrupted by dialogue, transitions, new throwaway mechanics and heck knows what else because the Devs are afraid you'd run off chasing squirrels if they didn't. You're trying to argue that people who want a continuous unbroken activity that they can pay attention to without having it broken up into smaller chunks by unnecessary things lack attention... the irony is sky high :o
Also, the 'puzzles' are usually self-solving with only one solution, and a general insult to the intelligence of anyone who's actually played a worthwhile grid-based game so don't delude yourself into thinking it's the 'intellectual' part of ZZZ... it's quite the opposite :P
What's also fascinating is that you compare the TVs to RPGs considering that your characters, their skills, their gear, their stats and everything else have no effect on it whatsover. It's like the antithesis of an RPG where your party is window dressing in the form of some jpgs at the bottom of the screen that do absolutely nothing.
You're absolutely right about one thing though... the TVs are a very cheap form of content. You're spot on about that :P
After all that, though, let's not just make this post just me poking you with a stick because I disagree... I think there's some stuff in there that does merit discussion.
First off, I do think Phaethon's place in the story is a valid concern if it goes full Rally mode. However, I think there's solutions to that outside of TV mode. You could add the bangboo (Eous) as an additional member to your party that you can switch to outside of combat and have plenty of stuff in the levels they can help with, like small passages they can squeeze into, panels they can hack and maybe hidden things only they can see with some batman-esque detective vision antics. There ARE a whole bunch of possibilities for that.
Second is the whole theatre of the mind rant. It's funny because that's how I prefer to run RPGs over the battlemat format: it removes the setup and teardown, it lets me flex my storytelling skills and it keeps players more engaged as they constantly have to update the image of the situation in their head as new info comes in. Thing is, that's a different environment from a computer game. This is a much more visual medium. Outside of interactive fiction (which is entirely text), your imagination is more used to fill in the blanks than to construct the scene in full (with the more indie/basic the graphics are leading to more room for your mind to do some work)
The problem is that Hoyoverse is a big company, with big budgets and the game is already packed with high quality stuff that removes the need for that. It's not like they don't have high quality 3d models with incredible bouncy animations. It's not like the game isn't already pumping out banging tunes the whole time to try and build the atmosphere.
Does the TV system give more room for you to fill it with your imagination? Sure. But the game wasn't advertised as a visual novel or interactive fiction so the crowd that's all about that isn't being told this is a game for them... you slap on a ZZZ ad and it's all combat, flashy animation and voice acting. I don't think you should be disparaging people who came in expecting all of what the game claimed it had only to be faced with a very cheap TV system being used to try and bulk it out.
Edit: Random additon, but have you tried the Etrian odyssey games? You might like them based on what you said you liked about the TV system. Avoiding the FOEs is almost a game in itself XD
@@HeroMysticLYX That obvious huh? lmao
After doing Cheestopia, I think the hollow based story events could have been TV mode. Like picking up the cheese or whatever. The reason why? I think tv mode is better for voice over lines and exposition dumps. In rally mode you kinda have to read unvoiced lines.
I also liked Golden week tv mode.
Possible idea. How about going back to pre 1.2 with the tv to battle ratio, but instead we invert it, so there was traveling and battling, with snippits of moments when we enter the tv system to solve a puzzle?
TV system made me quit this game
The problem with the TV mode was that it was extremely poorly thought out. At game launch, moving through it felt extremely sluggish and clunky, the tile events took so, SO INCREDIBLY LONG to get through, the pacing of the whole system was god-awful. I'd go into an exploration quest and come out anywhere from 5 minutes to ONE FUCKING GOD DAMN HOUR LATER because of how ridiculously bad the system was paced. It's no wonder that even the fastest hollow zero runs for casual people can last between half and a full hour too.
I DO know what I want, but then again I've worked in game development :P
I wanted this game to basically be rally mode where we run around random/unknown levels as our gacha characters, flipping switches, opening chests, dealing with traps and slapping baddies in a seamless, stylish experience.
I hate the TV system and actually quit the game because of it. I only came back recently because the devs promised to remove it from the story mode and to remove it from the older stuff at some point. Let me just say, that I mean no offense to you with this: even the TV scene you liked (the Ballet Twins) I hated.
Here's the issues (specifically story mode) that I personally have: Most of the TV content is self-solving with usually a single solution. Even the twin towers avoidance sequence is just an incredibly basic timing/pathing puzzle that you'd quickly go beyond within the first few levels of any decent sokoban game. They also tend to have a very stop-start flow, with the developers constantly interrupting you to introduce a transition, new mechanic, dialogue or god knows what else because they seem to think we all suffer from ADHD :P
TVs are further made worse by the fact they're completely divorced from the main game systems: Nothing inputs into it in any meaningful way like the characters you've picked, their stats, their gear, etc. It's a glorified menu.
They do most of what you see in those TV sections that's worth keeping in Rally mode and it feels infinitely better.
I've just recently played through the Jane Doe and Sons of Calydon stories and they were MILES better than any of the content before not just from an enjoyment point of view, but also even a business point of view: because you get a decent unbroken slice of time to play as the characters, it allows you to get used to how they feel and their kit, which makes them more desirable to pull on. I feel like I have a much better grasp of how to play the characters in those chapters than I do the TV heavy ones.
If they want to bring Phaethon into the Rally-style stuff more, just (as you somewhat alluded to) add the Bangboo to your switchable team-mates when not in combat and give them some stuff they can do (like passages too small for the other characters, hacking nodes they can interact with, hidden walls only Phaethon can see in a batman detective vision style manner, etc) You can just auto-switch to the lead character if the bangboo starts a combat encounter so it's still nice and seamless.
No offense taken. I overall agree with you. I did find 1.2's combat sections to be uninspired, but everything you said in it's defense makes sense. At the end of the day, it does attract players to pull for those characters if they weren't committed to it beforehand. And your suggestion about Phaethon is basically what my idea would be. I really like this input, and it's a good perspective. 👍
Rally commissions are dope, hope the combat sections in future chapters feel more like those- running around as Eous would be pretty fun too. Would love to start seeing character cut-ins as an option to complement the voicelines during combat (e.g. having belle/wise pop up in the corner)
side note, thought the jane doe quest was alright (mostly cus of jane and seth lol) but the amount of voiceless dialogue i thought was actually way more annoying than any of the TV's in Chapter 2 and beyond. idk why zzz devs seem allergic to giving even the main characters voiced lines outside outside cutscenes and combat- i ended up skipping a bunch, more so than in the previous story quests. hoyo please don't pull that shit again
also chapter 4 felt like the classic hoyo yapping was back in full force, so they got room for improvement there
@@tactaillike Definitely agree on voiceless stuff: it's incredibly jarring and nobody likes it when they skimp on using voices for dialogue. I don't think it's worse than TVs, but it's more a symptom of involving a lot of dialogue than 2d vs 3d gameplay so if this had been done via the grid system it'd still have just as much unvoiced yapping :)
That said, I do wish they'd have characters not talk so much during actual combat as I play with Japanese voices on and can't really concentrate on understanding them/reading the subtitles and fighting at the same time XD
There's plenty of bits where you're running along smashing crates and opening chests where I'd prefer them to stash the chatter.
Hollow Zero TV Mode and the TV Mode for the 1.1 major event was the best use of the mode. They made a dungeon crawler out of the mode and executed it perfectly. They should do more of that.
I enjoy the TV mode. Way better than annoying overworld puzzles.
Get with the facts:
-If tv mode was removed from the game, the game will still thrive.
-If combat was removed, the game would die cuz there would be no reason to pull on the banners.
Tv mode at best is a super mid rouguelite and (most of the time) at worst a terrible visual novel with some tv static over the audio. Only thing tv mode provides that combat cannot is perspective of pheathon.
As much as I love the TV system I'm so glad they added a withering garden game mode without it in hollow zero
yeah i have narcolepsy and the tv mode prevent me from doing the stuff i really want to do in the game. which is fight bigger and harder opponent. (naybe ones that are more mechanily hard and not just dependent on there levels) it take me hours to get though some of the tv mission cuz i keep pass out trying to playing them. honest if they replaced it with something more fun like the mini games they have in the game i be playing more.
I still think that removing the TVs is "A MISTAKE", because it would take away all the importance of the characters Belle and Wise, who by the way the story is about them, the agents are the ones who help them advance in their story, and the proxies' job is to guide them through the hollows and the TVs represent what Belle and Wise are doing as proxies, now! it is very true that there are many missions that are a burden and are a pain to complete, that is a fact, but I think that is a problem that developers can easily solve, removing the TVs is a mistake! I think they should improve the experience of that game mode and that's it...
1.0 was a drag man I pushed though but my other friend kind of gave up, he couldn't handle it, his trying nowadays baby steps, but my opinion on the tv is that I might be in the middle as well they just need to do it at the right place, kid you not I fell asleep 3 times in different instances while doing Tv it was boring asf but I don't mind it being in something that phatheon has to do like hack stuff then go back to running around.
I think the lack of Phaethon involvement is because of how chap 4 written. They went there and collecting the carrots first for Tour de Inferno only until the very end that they would guide Sons of Calydon through the hollow. Unlike the first 3 chapters where Phaeton actively needed for throughout the chapter because most events happened in the hollow and what didnt happen in the hollow, it got told through comic strips (also hollow zero in the interlude), very different for chapter 4 - introduction to outer rim.
I agree with the part when it works, it works really well and when it doesnt, you only suffer but for me, chapter 3 is miserable, move slightly different than normal aint really a puzzle, some of my friends just doesn't want to play anymore because of that. So yeah... if they commit to the TV, at least make it fun, at the end of the day, TV mode is still a part of the gameplay, not just a narrative for the story. Heck I bet if they did like nikke, when for the story, all you have to do is going from point A to point B and puzzle for exploration like Lost Sector, nobody would complain because you have the choice to engage with what you find fun first and annoying later
Those gamme systems - beating stuff up and puzzling corridors - have little to no overlap. It does matter little how well it is made or how fitting it is for the overall concept or world build. Those two activities cater to different types of gamers and therefore are bound to be at odds with each other.
i would love to see how hollow zero would be without tv mode. it wouldn't be hollow zero. the whole point of hollow zero is tv mode.
I'm fine with it existing, my only point of contention with it is the CONSTANT interruptions with dialogue windows or tutorializing every new screen. Which is something I hate more than anything else in modern gaming. Just introduce something and let me figure it out myself, I don't want to be infantilized over every new thing that pops up or exposited at every 5 seconds. Let me navigate the tv puzzles and stfu.
Its not just this game that does it. Its nearly every game in the last 10yrs that has done it. Its insulting to the players intelligence to assume that all of us are brainrotted to the point of no return.
10:36 I don't think that at all. I think that it's hard to perceive that a company is going to listen to you at all. Most companies won't listen to people until the bottom line starts suffering. So I perceive a lot of consumers.Think they have to talk about what they don't like because asking for shit seems like too much. Like for me , I would like let's gacha in this game. Honestly the closer it can get to something like devil may cry the better. Plus there's a lot of stuff that they've already introduced in the game that I think they can push further in the combat. Like the more team supers between a lot more people. Taking out the energy system completely. More special dialog between characters. Way point For all the side mission.
I like TV-mode. But preferrably SPARINGLY. If the TV-levels/puzzles are interesting i'm all down for it. Like camellia golden week.
I also think that TV-mode, compared to combat, has more room for developer creative expression.
Honestly getting rid of tv mode was arguably the worst move they could make, tour De inferno kinda shows why tv mode should stay. I think we can all agree that the chapter itself was incredibly short and that's mainly because all you got out of it was a few combat missions if they kept tv mode there would've been more content to make the wait for the update feel more worth it. Not only that but tv mode kinda gives Belle and Wise a reason to exist because in the combat missions I question why they're even here it feels like Caesar and friends didn't need them at all because of it. In other words Tv mode gave the game more variety and the moment they took it away stuff like tour de inferno just didn't feel like it was worth waiting for due to how short it was by prioritizing nothing but combat missions and gives less Belle and Wise less reason to exist in a gameplay sense.
Every time a see a channel like this with only like 500 subscribers it comes as a really big shock
Good videos man
Hi3 and PGR are not doing well. They're not dying, for sure, but that doesn't equate to doing well
Great analysis of the situation. And I definitely agree with you on players knowing what they hate, but not being able to articulate what they want.
This video..entirely! Make a choice and stand your ground Zenless Team! I believe in them.
pull character banners and stuff just to play candy crush tv? im out. give me more combats so i can enjoy the characters i pull and build
TV mode is a great and very welcome change of pace between the constant combat.
it's designed very well and it would be a shame if it were scrapped.
it also should not be side content only as it is such an integral part of the game's identity.
personally I just don't like the levels where you have to read and memorize shit 😅
I must have zoned out. Why is the card buff system in tv mode not part of the combat system in tv mode?
I'm not sure what you mean by card buff system. You mean the Resonium system in Hollow Zero?
Yeah i am one who is ok with tv system as long as it was done in moderation. In fact my feedback to hoyo back in 1.0 is to tone it done or at least give us more reward on longer session. Not complete removal.
Great insights on Zenless Zone Zero! Really enjoyed your take on the gameplay!
TV system being a part of everything made me quit, i came back after hearing there was less 😂 it should be used sparingly imo
I like TV mode and the interesting ways they used it naratively. Chapter 4 seems lacking and so short without it being present and the MCs being relagated to BG chars. If I wanted just combat and open world I would install another genshin clone.
I give it to your the investigation TV mode was so annoying, it should go away
I'd say TV mode in ZZZ is both great and awful. And it's true that I have no idea what I want from it. I don't want it to go away completely, though.
It allows a lot of flexibility in what you can put in the game. They put an entire separate RPG game in "The Prophecy" and I loved every moment of it. And then there were absolutely boring moments where you just walked from point A to point B without any additional goals like avoiding combat or anything else. I can't say that investigations were the worst offenders here. I think I liked them at least somewhat. Furthermore, transition between TV mode and combat is absolutely awful and takes way more time than it should. It just doesn't flow right, with way too many animations in between. Engaging in combat in TV mode always felt like excessive and unnecessary punishment.
Also, excessive explanation of every new mechanic gets annoying over time. Would be nice to shut these tutorials off entirely and figure out how things work without it. And the puzzles they put in there... are awfully trivial, and pretty much always with only one possible and painfully obvious solution. It always feels like you are playing a tutorials to some better game, but you never get to that better part ever.
the combat si quick but the TV mode stressing me out well i play some non combat games but TV mode takes a lot of time and uninstall it for peace of mind... They keep advertise the fighting mechanics thats why community are hooked but when they try it the only complain is TV mode and hoyo comm. Still staying in HSR and genshin
They just need to focus on what's good in both areas
i think the argument about "if tv mode gone, ZZZ become another HI3rd or PGR" is valid, its just another hack & slash game. yes maybe the game gonna be fine but the game is lost thier identity, they lose the only thing that make this game unique
So... it's not the bouncy animation, bopping soundtrack, colourful characters, contemporary setting or fast-paced combat that gives it identity then? It's entire identity is encapsulated entirely by a cheap rip off of pokemon mystery dungeon that none of the main mechanics actually feed into? :P
@@Geminosity Considering that everything you described applies to Hi3 and PGR too, they indeed don't give the game its unique identity
@@negspirito I recommend speaking to your doctor about reducing the dosage of whatever pills you're on, because if you think HI3, PGR and ZZZ aren't distinct from one another without TV mode, your current prescription is clearly too strong :P
gee remove TV mode and Phaeton seems less relevant can't imagine why
I’m the polar opposite in that I found that Chapter 3 showed just how bad the TV mode is for atmospheric story. The Ballet Tower was presented in giving a ghost story kind of horror element to it but I found that the TV mode fails to capture that kind of atmosphere instead just turning it into a puzzle of avoiding obstacles that exist in plain sight.
While I get that the TV mode is there to make Phaethan relevant, it just kinda raises the question of why they thought to make the ‘guy in the chair’ the protagonist of the game? There’s a reason why that character is never the main one and just play a supporting role. I find a better implementation for them would have been having us play as their bangboo in roaming portions of the hollow, with the agents tagging in when combat happens or using an overhead view inside the hollow for what the TV mode would cover, changing to the combat screen when combat happens
5:40 i feel like the story mission be a lil bit to easy for where you feel like your flying though the content to a current degreee. at least with the combat
I hate this system...too slow...
I am a TV lover as big as you can possibly get - every available task in Ray's research book completed, all quests done 100% and prophecy replayed twice for an achievement and all rewards. I think that TV system is a unique and great mechanic as a concept and it gives a versitile instrument for storytelling and jigsaw type of challenge beyond fighting. In my opinion every voice matters regards to tv system, but most of the complains are solveable with qol like making a 2X mode more seamless and so on.
The real problem when other type of complains could be interpreted as "I don't want to play this game as developers intended, please make it more like (put any other gacha)" and that is what pisses off people that enjoy the game as it is - like do you treat every game intended mechanics as poor implemented just because you like other mechanics from different games? Do you come to Witcher 3 and complain about managing new equipment every level you get because you wanted a game where you ascend weapons or to any grand strategy game and criticize it for being overcomplicated excel spreadsheet and you wanted an rts instead? Any community will count this as a toxic behavior and will treat it as such, check who is being toxic in this situation. This is ZZZ, not Genshin, WuWa, HSR or Love and Deepspace.
QoL - good, removing mechanics at all - bad, as simple as that
I love the tv mode, I don't want it to be remove, they could at least use it to unlock the doors and such kinda like the main story missions with Victoria housekeeping when exploring that building
Hands down, the best opinion I've heard about the TV system. I'm also in the middle, leaning more toward combat because that's what I enjoy more but wouldn't mind if the TV came back.
I also agree with your opinion of them *REALLY STICKING TO THEIR GUNS*. From what's been shown, even they don't know what direction they want to take the game since they publicize the combat of ZZZ but never really publicize the TV/puzzle aspect of ZZZ, making the advertisement from the game essentially false marketing, which will result in even more backlash.
Best of both world would probably be as you say: Have TV affect combat and vice-versa (and hopefully no loading screen in between because those were really annoying )
Anyway, big thumbs up from me
I like the TV mode and I understand with a lot of peaplo doesnt, BUT at least keep the TV with big puzzles because it can be very fun
Mmmmm i agree with your take with the tv mode in this case i feel as though there should be 2 variations of a story quest one where its purely just cutscenes and fights and then if you do the tv mode you get a more detailed perspective cause i mean you will be playing the proxy
A lot of players will not want to play the TV mode. And same in turn, some delusionals will act like they dont want to play the combat. (as if they only pulled a character to see it as a jpeg in the TV mode )
Im indifferent. Some were really good like the Golden Week Event but there were some that was fkn awful like the Ballet Twins.
People dont understand that the tv system needs to be in the game because you are playing from the perspective of the proxy. The tvs screen is LITERALLY THE WALL OF TV's behind the HDD system. But ppl will bitch and complain because they dont understand that. You are not the agents the majority of the time. I say bring it back in its entirety.
Fair point, they should just remove the gacha completely so we don't play as those other characters. When combat happens you should just watch it auto-play like some mobile game. After all, making sure we have the correct PoV is top priority and definitely how this game would succeed :P we should also have an entire section of the game dedicated to working out how to pay the electricity bill that fairy is running up.
just advocating here, I'm neutral, you're take is pointless. you're assuming that people want to play as phaethon. they don't (or at least, those people that are complaining) your lore explanation only matters with perspective
If there's one thing I vehemently grew tired of seeing in regards to this debate is the argument of "but the TV mode is unique! Removing it will make it just make it another generic RPG gacha! It'll be boring and uninspired!" _Just because something is unique, doesn't automatically mean it's good,_ or in the case of the game's mechanics; _that it meshes well with the other parts._
We already have character dialogue and the various hubs for exploration for both main story & side content, the stories themselves, cutscenes, trust events, etc. - all these things ARE THE BREAKS from the combat. The TV exploration if anything just makes certain chunks of the game feel more sluggish than needed, especially with how tedious it can feel having to spam through dialogue or sitting through the intro/transition animations that aren't affected by fast forwarding (felt this a LOT when hunting down all the Resonia/Lost Items in Hollow Zero.)
Secondly, it really just takes me away from the experience and lacks any immersion - ye, I get it; the HDD itself is "a wall of TVs" but like.. the Proxy controls _Eous._ They aren't looking at the wall of TVs, _they're seeing & doing everything through the eyes of the bangboo._ It makes _less sense_ for us to be playing a grid puzzle mobile game than actually exploring the hollows?? Narratively, I can only speculate that the TVs serve as a "map display" or something for the other proxy sibling, but even then from what I could gather in the cutscenes is that the actual main monitor is what they use. And in certain cases the exploration mode even dampens story beats, like in the last chapter of Rina's agent story, that makes what should've been key, heartfelt moments that would've deserved either a cutscene or comic panels just so much less impactful - _ON TOP_ of being missable since fastforwarding *also speeds up the cinematic parts of TV mode,* and my ADHD ridled ass would've missed that if I felt particularly exhausted at the time of playing and just skipped through all of it.
Also just the notion that the game is "just another generic RPG game" without this gameplay system is just profoundly moronic, like..
ZZZ stands out for it's hybrid sci-fi and "urban" setting, cast of characters, the animation, visuals & awesome soundtrack amongst other things. It is already as unique as it can be among the ocean of Genshin clones or other 'full fantasy/medieval' themed games. The "removal" of 1 game mechanic doesn't change that I was expecting a Jetset Radio meets Devil May Cry, and with more emphasis on the combat from here onward, I am willing to say that Mihoyo have 100% went above that expectation.
Sure there I understand what you are saying.
I think the game doesn't have that strong rp suit, and so I think that people calling it generic rpg, is basically calling that the game has no rp.
Only part being RP is that you run around the cities and hubs do the tasks, then just maybe you can consider combat being rp also, but the hook for the role play isn't as strong when you ditch the meaning of having proxy.
It's just Fight game then. If there is no play for the proxy before the fight, then how do you know that the combat is for the task, because one screen said so?
So the last or current story part felt bit detached, I was just man of cheese. While the bikers saved the world. In some sense I get it, because if the roads are there, and it's not as twisted hollow as the big ones and the story is played by the bikes taking over, and letting us to get to the action right away.
Still few side quests still used the fact that proxy has Fairy as charter or whatever carrot, and so brought me in back a little into a role.
So could it be replaced by having the mission setup phase indicate more personal connection between the characters?
Or is it asking for something to take the place of the TV mode? Hmmm...
TV modes have had story missions played in them so that their meaning as way to characters share time and thoughts, strategy, and tactics is clear, but if there is no play for that, then the meaningful connection between the characters and the proxy during missions is ditched
Got to tense it up before the fights. Eous should be bigger player during the combat?
Still the tv mode in some sense represents the proxy's focus on the mission, and that only by looking for their attention they can reach him.
Just random chitter chatter might not reach the proxy, which is not indicated though.
The worst part for me is the loading times, because by cheesing through investigations in the outpost I can load into fight and during the load lag I can just mash buttons and win the fight, and not see anything of it happen.
I might need better gpu but ey, I still appreciate the TV mode, and sure there are some annoying missions, but still. watch?v=X-7558NYtwY - That's something that came to my mind, it's not fit here, but mmhm.
I don't find as deep immersion without the tv play.
I understand the outpost play, where you are supposed to be sharp and just focus on the big targets, so that has also highlighted the meaning of tv mode missions for characters connecting. Because the proxy isn't really the MC it's always the story line that gets introduced, and the proxy is the side character. Character that barely gets any spotlight, and when they do, it's basically alarming situation.
P.s.
In some sense it reminds me of Black Lagoon and the Rock character. They are basically seemingly useless, as they can't do anything in the environment, but he is diplomatic, tactical, and strategic.
Cutting out characters that don't seem to do anything..?
I'll put my 2 cents in, I play Zenless Zone Zero cause I want to whack shit with whoever I want to use in my collection of characters. With that said, some TV mode takes away too much time from that gameplay especially in the early game, I don't mind the TV mode in Hollow Zero in regards to having a way to interact with rogue-like endgame and the blitz mode was a perfect addition to just clear my weeklies. However TV modes as a way to express the story is very dull and annoying, I'd rather have slideshows of comic arts, In-game model assets voice-over with emotes, and animated cutscenes as the primary way to consume the story telling of the game. I Absolutely don't want to get interrupted with TV mode for storytelling and trying to imagine what the actual fuck is happening/goin on with the story after being constantly getting interrupted of jump cuts mid fight, but that's just me.
IMO, TV mode should just be used as a puzzle mini-game that last only for around 15seconds to a minute at most to complete for Polychrome freebies. Aint no way I want to stay in the TV mode solving puzzles for 5-10min or more and finally get to end and finally start the actual gameplay. I just can't defend TV mode at all, it sucks so hard and should be dramatically decreased in game time or removed entirely.
ZZZ shouldn't copy Honkai Impact the 3rd or Punishing Gray Raven just because they're making money. That's a terrible justification of removing the TV system. You can copy a previously successful game, but only do it if you can add something of value to the medium you're copying, otherwise it's just going to be a soulless cash grab. And there are plenty of people in the middle who hates the TV system and love the TV system at the same time and I'm one of them. The TV system is a great storytelling tool, especially since you're playing the role of a proxy. How they implemented the TV system sucked at many places, because fairy often stopped to talk to you, which it does a lot. Besides fairy talking to you, other things like opening of doors, the evidence collecting stuff you mentioned, a lot of actions take a surprisingly a lot of time and really makes the pace of the TV mode bad. But without it, the game is pretty monotonous. 1.2 story telling was extremely not engaging for me as it was literally fight one mob, move to the next mob, and repeat. Combat games like these thrive on their boss battles. Mob fights are usually just fillers. TV system is also filler, but depending on how you implement it, it has way more variety than mob fights. For me, I want them to keep the TV system but change the pace at which you progress through it.
@muffindude2087 i never stated anywhere that ZZZ should copy those games because they're making money. Only that the argument "ZZZ would just be Hi3/PGR without TV mode" is a terrible argument in the first place.
@@HeroMysticLYX "On the other hand though, I do find it funny when people say deleting the TV system would turn Zenless into another Honkai Impact third or Punishing Gray Raven because when you think about it, those games have been running for well over five years and still make bank." Based on this, you can also interpret it as "Those arguments suck because those games actually make money, so those arguments are actually a justification to why ZZZ can do away with the TV system." Those arguments are valid because ZZZ shouldn't be another copy of games because it'll feel like I'm playing another random stage battler gacha game.
@@muffindude2087 The problem here is that statement does not exist in isolation. I stated this immediately afterwards:
"Furthermore, it's not like the Zenless team couldn't turn the Proxy into a playable character and add puzzles into the combat zones for Phaethon to handle. It'd be harder to pull off, but it's not impossible. In fact, if they do it right, it could be even better than sticking with the TV Mode."
The point here is to show that those arguments are bad because you absolutely can build something unique by using combat zones to create elaborate puzzles using an in-game model of Phaethon, and it could potentially if not very likely be more satisfying to the general playerbase if executed well.
While I understand misinterpretation can happen, it is ultimately a misinterpretation. And I'm only addressing this to fully clarify it for you.
@@HeroMysticLYX That's a pretty big stretch. Even after this explanation and going back to that part, I still interpret what you say as "Why can't it be like HI3? It makes money. You can just add puzzles to combat mode and ta-da, novelty," which I heavily disagree since it just becomes similar to Genshin with no world to explore. Making proxy playable in hollow also misses the point as they're not supposed to be there. They're guiding hollow raiders through from their HDD, which is the whole concept of the TV mode.
@@muffindude2087 why are you interpreting what he said? he said it in plain, clear english. There's no interpretation required. Respond to what the man is saying, not what you've changed it to mean :P
Sorry but NO,,,,, TV mode sucks ass.
Sounds like a you problem
@@justanotherstarcoshipper8641 its not a problem its an opinion, stop crying.
@@PotatoNinja-y5t lol it sounds to me you are the one crying
@@justanotherstarcoshipper8641 We don't like the TV mode unfortunately. There's no joy to it majority of the time.