I feel like going down this list, its more so a collection of things I've seen raised by various UA-camrs, but with various points missed or as if the points were noticed, but the explanations given by said UA-camrs was ignored to some extent. It just made me think of PlagueOfGripes video on certain topics, as well as points that came up here briefly. If I was going to give a big criticism, I'd say Super has tried to connect certain Dragon Ball aspects with Dragon Ball Z aspects in a messy way, but that's just me and even then I find it difficult to explain :P
My only problem with Ultra Instinct is that the goal post keeps changing. In the Moro arc, we finally thought Goku had it, but suddenly there’s this out of nowhere caveat of it becoming less accurate the longer it’s used. Toyotaro admitted he had to find a way to handicap it in an interview. Another thing is, the manga’s interpretation makes Ultra Instinct feel tranquil and calm while the anime feels closer to the current “True Ultra Instinct."
Agreed. It's like they Toyotaro has to keep handicapping UI so it doesn't replace the Super Saiyan transformations. But he had a great idea with Moro. Make a villain weaker than Goku and Vegeta, and have them use their brain rather than pure strength to win, while also giving UI the same downside the anime did, not being able to spam it because Goku is still mortal.
@@S31KO. That's not what I said though, we all know there's a time limit. I said that there's a new caveat being that it becomes less and less accurate the longer it's used and it's already been proven that this is a new caveat because Toyotaro said it himself.
Gotta agree with number 10 actually. If Goku never "absorbed" Super Saiyan God or whatever, pretty much all power scaling problems would be fixed. Goku chasing after the power that he felt but from his training rather than ritual would explain a huge amount of his Super characterisation - he fights to better himself, not to be better than anyone else and having the memory of how far he could go but knowing he isn't there yet would be a fascinating motivational factor for him. Beerus would remain feeling as ludicrously overpowered as they keep acting like he is (him one-shotting post-ToP Vegeta recently in the manga for example) while actually improving a lot of his gags - the uncomfortable spectre of a lot of Beerus scenes is the question of "is he that strong now?" His behaviour around Zeno for example would be much funnier if we weren't wondering stupid stuff like "okay, but is Vegito stronger than Beerus?" If we had a solid ground of "yes he is and the gap between them is so vast the main character's entire motivation is reaching the level of Not Good Enough" then Beerus being scared and Goku being chummy would really land properly as absurd. Jiren wouldn't necessarily have to be stronger than a God of Destruction, UI being an angelic technique wouldn't lead to "how long until this gets power crept" but "how long until this is ready and how far can it go", the gap between the non-Saiyans would be so much smaller and less ridiculous meaning more chance for character variety... Honestly, the domino effect of giving Goku a clearer, achievable motivation is pretty darn big.
It wouldn't totally fix the power scaling, I mean Krillin, Tien, and even Piccolo had basically become irrelevant as fighters by the Buu saga, but it would dramatically lessen the issue.
Thats basically what I headcanon it as tbh. Theres no actual reason why the power they've achieved nowadays has to be stronger than the Battle of Gods ritual incarnation. In general I view power levels as way lower than most fans (because thats what the show actually tells us, the fans numbers are clearly wrong). As soon as you aren't shackled by old non canon guidebook multipliers the power creep issue becomes completely irrelevant. Its clear that the numbers fans were using have been wrong the whole time, the show isn't treating Yamcha like the galaxy buster he would have to be for those numbers to make sense. Therefore the numbers are obviously wrong.
It didn't matter in the end because Vegeta ends up being equivalent or slightly stronger after BoG, as he trained to achieve said power. So, they kinda ruined how strong the power provides just by taking 6-12 months to achieve it lol.
The other universes are missed opportunities, too. One of the biggest revelations in BOG was that there were other universes, but we've barely done anything with them.
I'm surprised the ending to Goku black didn't show up on the list. Xeno button and all that. Super has always had questionable writing. Don't agree with the whole list but id say the power creep during ToP is pretty big contender
I'd say all of the arcs kind of drop the ball at the end. Movies aside, the original tournament kind of petered out, Xeno button in Goku Black, and the "lol it was all a joke/test" retcon at the end of the ToP.
The fact that Frieza who was bested by namek Goku was able to catch up to post buu super sayian blue Goku in 4 months kinda shows how ridiculous the power creep is in super.
My worst gripe with Potara Fusion's retcon is that it was unneccessary. Just two arcs previously, we had seen that Porunga has the power to undo potara fusion, separating Shin and Kibito, so there already was a way for Goku and Vegeta to not be stuck as Vegetto permanently. Okay, but we needed a way for Vegetto to not beat Zamasu all on his own. That's fair. But why not use Goku Black's scythe? Black himself said even he did not understand its full potential, but we never really got to see it do anything interesting. Merged Zamasu could, in a moment of desparation, conjure the scythe and use it to slice Vegetto in two, breaking his fusion apart. In writing, you should typically expand on what you have before you create something new. In retconning Potara Fusion, Super added unneccessary bloat to Dragon Ball lore while leaving several loose ends that seemed to be set up almost perfectly to solve permanent Potara Fusion in the first place.
Damn those solutions for breaking the Vegito fusion sound pretty sensible compared to the anime retconning its own lore. I especially like the idea of Zamasu using his scythe to separate the fusion
the thing is it isn't a recton? in z vegito didn't defuse from buu but the time limit. the potara effects wasn't known about mortals as goku and vegeta were the first mortals to do that. also it was shown and known that gotenks had never defused meaning that the whole buu magic gets rid of fusion gets thrown out the window. it doesn't ruin anything just explain why vegito defused.
@女神aqua dude a retcon is any new info that changes a previous establish element. The fusion dance and potato were firmly establish to be very different things. Also, unlike Vegito Gotenks was actually absorbed by Buu. Vegito used an energy barrier to block it.
@@JohnWilliams-wl9px question can you read? because in what way does explaining why vegito defused change anything especially when mortal to mortal potara fusion has never happened? nothing was changed it was just explained why he defused and if it wasn't rectonned then vegito would've stayed fused obviously
@@aqua6166 I can, but you clearly can't since you don't know what a retcon is. A retcon is any new info that changes an established element. It's not always something like how the Spiderman comics Gwen Stacy was retcon from just Peter's girlfriend into having having a affair with Norman Osborne. Retcon can just add stuff that wasn't there originally like how Goku was retcon into being an alien. It doesn't contradict any old info but it is new information.
The thing with the universes is I think they were in over their head and abandoned the idea. We got 4 new arcs/movies after the ToP and they haven’t left Universe 7. I think they don’t have faith in the characters and stories of the other universes
Honestly, they never needed to be entire other universes in the first place. A universe is such an insanely big place, and nothing Z ever did even required them to travel beyond a single galaxy. So when super wanted to expand things, they could have just done so by introducing more galaxies. Heck, even the other group of Saiyans didn't require alternate universes to exist since the original Saiyan home world is supposed to have been destroyed long ago and planet Vegeta was just someplace some of the survivors conquered. As such Cabba, Caulifla, and Kale could have all just been descendants of a different group of survivors that settled elsewhere. Seriously though, it's a very clear case of the authors having no sense of scale, especially during the tournament of power when it revealed that despite ostensibly having an entire UNIVERSE to recruit from, supposedly there isn't even one single fighter anywhere except Earth capable of making the cut for team U7.
@@EmeralBookwise i do feel like having the U6 saiyans just be from a different group of survivors would cheapen the whole Saiyans are near extinct thing they have going on.
My main issue with beast Gohan is the same as with SS Rage for Trunks - it seems to not have any lore at all, it's just there with no explanation. Or at least, if there is an explanation, I've missed it. Same kinda goes for Broly but at least they tried to make that make some kind of sense and the explanation that eventually came was pretty good I'd say.
I’d agree. With Broly they made clear that, like Kale, he’s an exception to normal power growth (granted it got really absurd power wise with the implication that a saiyan from a far off planet could somehow compete with ssb goku and vegeta and completely outclass them but I digress). With Gohan, the only explanation is the usual “Gohan threw a tantrum and is now the strongestestest ever”. It’s cheap writing and it makes it clear that Gohan was never supposed to be in the movie, just mandated by execs.
yeah, there's really no actual explanation given, but I'm sure they're going to provide one whenever that form returns here's my thoughts, though, if you'd like: Beast is sort of Gohsn's special version of SS3; the form does boast considerably longer hair similar to 3 and Gohan himself hasn't ever shown whether he achieved 3 or not, as for the power difference between Beast and 3, remember how it was stated that Gohan's SS2 was far more stronger as a kid than as an adult, well this could be that (there's also the Mystic form boost to be considered here)
@@mastergreeen1385 My guess is kinda similar, that this is Gohan stacking SS2 (or maybe 3) on top of Mystic. We've seen him be able to stack SS1 on mystic, so this might just be the next step up that ladder.
@@thecod2345 I actually think Gohan Beast has a good explanation (or potential explanation at least) with his ultimate form. No one else has that and Elder Kai did it, so it makes sense he'd be at least god level with another form on top of it. Broly on the other hand feels incredibly cheap and unearned. Don't get me wrong, him being strong is fine but strong enough to fairly easily and quickly beat blue Vegeta, blue Goku, golden Frieza, and then at least not get trounced by Gogeta is absurd. A fused Kefla couldn't come close and she has both legendary super saiyan rage and fusion on top of that. This backwater saiyan who can barely speak and hasn't had proper training is somehow that powerful? Gohan at least has some real training and real experience under his belt.
Personally I think the two best and perhaps only good transformations to come out of Super in my opinion were the original SSJ God, and Ultra Instinct They just fit so extremely well, and the former got robbed hard. I assume the latter at least has more respect in the show and manga?
I would personally agree. Both forms were received very well and had some good logic behind them and the manga definitely added some future scope of refining UI and now being a parallel to UE.
@@MasakoX Oh right, I forgot UE happened! That one is good too! Also ayyy I was noticed by the funny what if guy who does the Goku voices! I love your content though, in all seriousness. Keep it up, your channel is like a haven after TFS formally retired their DBZA efforts.
In the tournament of power, in the anime, it was like every universe was lining up just to be knocked off by U7. How in a “battle royale” did the majority of fighters fight and get eliminated by nothjng but U7. I would have liked more chaos, and crossover, less U7 beating EVERYONE.
I think the reason for that is that most, if not all, universes had a common hatred for U7 as they were the reason for the TOP to begin with, so they all tried targeting them; however, it turns out that U7, despite having one of the lowest average mortal power levels, does possess some of the strongest beings in existence, so all those universes ended up getting trounced TLDR: Everyone targeted U7 but also underestimated it
@@mastergreeen1385 Still doesn't mean that was the best way to write that, they didn't have to make it where Universe 7 had the strongest fighters, they don't need to make universe 7 THAT special.
@2000wires I guess the writers didn't have many options; see, U7 has to be the winner, not just because they're the "protagonist" but also because them losing means they get wiped out of existence with no guarantee that someone from another universe would be as selfless as 17 to wish them all back. In order to make that victory possible, they had to write the other teams as being mostly weak or similar to U7 in that only a few of the members are really super strong; if all the other universes really had super strong fighters on par with Goku and Vegeta then about half of U7 team would've gotten smoked in the first few minutes TLDR; the writers wrote themselves into a corner
Something I find really funny about Ultra Instinct is that its actually a thing in real life and is a relatively low bar. The entire point of martial arts training is to train your muscle memory so that you react without thinking while maintaining good form. You aren't supposed to be thinking "okay I'll do a knife hand here, then a left hook", you just train those moves so that when you're in that situation your body can just do it automatically. Dragon Ball treating "moving automatically on instinct" like its some legendary, impossible to achieve feat when IRL its, from what I understand, the bare minimum to have actually become a trained martial artist, is really funny to me.
I think it might at least partly be because DBZ and by extension DBS had long ago moved past regular old martial arts. The implication being that all the ki blasts and transformations the franchise has become famous for require intense concentration that otherwise prohibits that kind of automatic responses. This especially seems the case in the Manga, where Roshi, a much more old-school martial artist without all the fancy tricks, was still able to move in a similarly autonomous fashion.
It's fun to know that Kyle Hebert enjoyed doing the Beast Gohan voice. He just became Batman all of the sudden. That part of the dub was both cool and hilarious at the same time. XD
It's only more "interesting" in what if scenarios where Gogeta and Vegetto fight each other... but otherwise it never made much sense for them to have different personalities when they are literally made from the same to components. Really, it makes more sense that they were always the same and that the only reason Gogeta ever seemed more "serious" is because he always knew he was working with a time limit and so couldn't risk wasting any of it. Also, it's not like Vegitto played around with Buu out of pure ego. It was explained that it was always his intention to goad Buu into trying to absorb him so that he could rescue others who had already been absorbed. So naturally when we see Vegitto fight Zamasu, where he both has no ulterior goals and knows he's on time limit, he fights a lot more seriously than he ever did against Buu.
@@Xylospring With Vegetto's speed and strength? He could literally have just exploded Buu off of him before being absorbed. He literally beat Buu up as a candy. It only makes sense that he KNEW Buu was going to try it, and was ready with a barrier to not get absorbed.
2:24 It really doesn't make sense of Master Roshi being involved in Resurrection F as he would have been far weaker than Krillin, Tien, Chiaotzu and Yamcha who had been through a lot of training and experience when fighting planet busting aliens and androids despite not being able to catch up to Goku, Gohan, Vegeta and Piccolo. Roshi shouldn't be able to beat Frieza Force mooks who are probably as strong as Saiyan Saga Raditz.
Honestly, I like Roshi and all, super cool character back in DB, and his fighting style as a true martial artist is cool... but his role was always as a teacher, if you want to bring him back, bring him back in that capacity, as he has no business fighting aliens, my man never stood a chance against Piccolo anyway.
I mean, it's not like Roshi is incapable of training. While it was certainly believable in OG DB that when he saw how strong the new generation was he felt content to retire, but then as the years went on, especially as he witnessed just how much stronger all those planet busting aliens could be and as he saw his students surpass their limits over and over again, that he might likewise have realized he too still had so much more to learn and would start training again.
@@bongosmcdongos4190 It's hardly believable that they could do so... solo training has always among the inconsistent things in DB, sometimes it works really well and sometimes it doesn't. I think it's fair to assume Roshi trained at least 50 years of his life, most likely 300, but he can't match King Piccolo. Does just knowing that "Hey Krillin could do it" enable him to reach a much higher point within significantly less time? If Toriyama says so. After all, gravity training let Goku reach > Ginyu levels, you can't say it was the Zenkai Boost because Vegeta was stronger and got one too but got wrecked by Recoome, so then the only feasible explanation is that Goku got Zenkai boosts while training because the gravity was crushing his bones xD
Although I really enjoyed Super Hero for shining a spotlight on characters that deserved more attention and it's overall fun tone, I have to be honest and say I wasn't a big fan of Beast Gohan. It came out of nowhere with no explanation as to what it is and how it was achieved. It was also very clear nostalgia pandering to SSJ2 Gohan with it's transformation and design, except it looks far more ridiculous. I liked Orange Piccolo much more, but even that I had issue with how it was achieved. I've been noticing a worrying trend in Super with characters just wishing for more power rather than earning it.
Frankly I feel like most of Gohan's power ups aren't 'earned', he isn't like Goku. He gets power when he needs it because he needs it. More importantly, there's a great video on here about Orange Piccolo by Carthu's Dojo, pretty solid explanation for why him wishing for it kind of works.
Obviously, Beast exists for the same reason as most new transformations... MARKETING! Naritively it should have been enough for Gohan to just unleash his full rage while in ultimate form without needing any visual distinction but giving him different color over the top hair is just one more way to make even more variant toys and merchandise of the same few popular characters for collectors to splurge on.
@@craigyeah1052 I actually don't mind Gohans power but I have a problem with how they wrote his hybrid potential as an excuse to give him power ups rather show him training and working towards it, cause the hybrid potential thing is getting annoying especially since it seems like it only applies to Gohan and not trunks and goten
@@Metro.... 100% agreed on the weird inconsistancy, where trunks and goten got SSJ super early but then proceeded to just not be relevant despite being more into training than Gohan.
Honestly, Goku's repertoire being a cavolcade of his friends' and (former) enemies' techniques kind of makes sense, from what I know about the Monkey King.
This was espically true back in OG Dragonball. He would just pull off other peoples techniques on their asses in the middle of a fight, like the Solar Flare.
Even dbs as a whole is a reference to Sun Wukongs time with the gods. Before he defeated their armies, got 'refined' in the godly kiln, wreaked havoc in heaven and finally got tricked by Buddha.
I definitely 1000% agree with number 6, ever since the TOP I've been waiting to see more from at least the U6 Saiyan's and the pride troopers, but since then they've barley been mentioned, huge missed opportunity imo, also kinda agree with he beast gohan thing, I watched super hero for the first time last week and was kinda disappointed with how they treated gohan in that movie in general
I didn't mind Gohan Beast much since I just headcanon it's an actual follow up to the pre-TOP episode where Gohan wanted to explore his ultimate form further. They really do need to have Gohan actually keep training instead of constantly regressing though. It is in-character but it's getting a little old at this point to keep retreading the same ground.
@@gadaddo4794 I definitely picked up during the movie, I think the problem is the trailers and seeing beast Gohan everywhere for the past few months made me think it was a Gohan movie, which gave me expectations that weren't met, and I was originally upset because of it. I did watch totallynotmark's review on the movie however and I want to try again this time purely to enjoy myself
the idea of ultra instinct I think was perfectly fine, and how he unlocked it was not only reasonable but awesome. However, the fact that he reached the completed ultra instinct or the white hair (put away your glasses 🤓). he should've reached that point eventually, but not a few short minutes after reaching it initially
They needed to Flesh out Super Saiyan God SOOOOOO Much More. Getting Super Saiyan Blue immediately after the next arc completely sidelines SSG. Not to mention the fact that it gets used as the go-to form repeatedly only to get stomped on relatively quickly. Ultra Instinct honestly confuses me since it was INITALLY described as a technique, but the fact there’s a Transformation linked to it leaves me scratching my head sometimes. Not to mention True Ultra Instinct in the manga just feels like a step backwards to me. You go from training to avoid having to your emotions interfere to use it fully, to completely using your emotions to use it better than MASTERED Ultra Instinct??? Bruh. Also Beast Gohan. Everything said in the article I agree with as well. While the agree the reveal was SICK, it DOES seem like an over-exaggerated version of SSJ2 Gohan. Plus they need to shorten the hair by like 5 FEET. 😅
The fast dumpstering of forms in the anime. Super Saiyan God was introduced once and wasn't used again. SS God should've had an arc or two where Goku/Vegeta gets accustomed to learning how to use their new Godlike powers. The wet blanket that is Super Saiyan Blue. Its a similar issue to God. It was introduced too fast, got no development, and became just another angery SS form. Blue should've been the ultimate form of Super. Extremely powerful but delicate. Tough to attain, hard to maintain, and its delicate calm nature make the Saiyans shun it despite its power.
I think something that people are often afraid to admit to regarding Super is how it treats Power vs technique. Toyotaro tries really hard to emphasize that power is not the only factor in combat. Going so far as to highlight how Roshi could predict Jiren's attacks. Because Jiren is ungodly powerful but functionally fights like a drunk swinging a bar stool. Roshi had barely a fraction of that power but had 5+ centuries of experience to draw upon. This is how combat was approached back in Dragonball. Where weaker fighters often won via clever tactics or by surprising other fighters with new techniques.
I feel like Toyotaro has a decent grasp of what fans want from Dragon Ball, I'd just really like to know how much freedom he actually gets with the story.
Sadly, the execution of this idea doesn't work at all. It may even cause more trouble than good. I would have liked it if all powerlevels were equalized for the tournament, this would have made sense.
Ultra Instinct should have been a one-time special event used for the final arc of Super and then never used again afterwards because the longer it stays around, the writers will have to keep finding ways around it since UI would be a get out of jail card for Goku if he ever truly mastered it and any tension in future fights would feel hollow with the audience knowing he has that kind of power on him. Though with how badly the OG characters were written in this series along with the absurd power creep also doesn’t do Super any favors, (ROF, TOP, Broly Movie and the Gas Arc) especially the former because so many characters were done dirty in DBS.
Also too add to your point with the closet thing Goku has to a character arc being his want to be the greatest fighter in all of every reality at this point he really shouldn't have access to divine state of fighting mastery untill the end
@@God_Enjoyer Well considering hes the only mortal apparently in any universe to achieve it without training or being told about it, I’m sure he will master it.
My largest complaint is the lack of story with universe 6 saiyans. Why was their first introduction to super saiyan with universe 7. If they had at least implied that at least some of the saiyans had figured it out in some epic conflict against a threat similar to the Frieza fight then I would be okay but they really decided that Vegeta shouting at cabba and a tingling sensation in their backs was a great explanation for them catching up. I'd have loved hints at an epic saga of battles and adventure in the U6 Saiyans past, giving valid reason to why they are as strong as they are or better yet give a spin off series set in Universe 6 with either Cabba or Caulifla at the helm that actually shows their story on the run up to the U6 v U7 arc in DBS, naturally introducing the other character like Frost and Hit
You don't understand, they're a peaceful race. Why would you want the same repeat backstory that they were slaves? Also I feel like this comes from a lack of understanding on how Super Saiyan works on your part. How they "caught up" is that they didn't 🙃 They already had the base power necessary to transform into a Super Saiyan, they just didn't know how. That's entirely different from the Universe 7 Saiyans where we watched them grow. We were with them through the journey, from them slowly becoming strong enough to access these forms. The Universe 6 Saiyans were already at the end game, we were not along for the journey. Also Caulifla is a prodigy like Goku, why shouldn't she be able to replicate his feats of instantly knowing how to do something after seeing it? So I think this is a bit unreasonable.
@@ParadiseDB7 Yeah! I think one thing people forget is that the hardest thing to overcoming a problem or a limit is usually knowing it's even possible in the first place. Once you've seen it can be done, it makes it much easier.
@@ParadiseDB7 Regardless of whatever plot contrivances they make up to excuse their poor writing, it will forever be inherently a bad idea to reduce a legendary powerup (the most iconic in anime) to a back tingle. They did not have the time to sufficiently develop the universe 6 saiyans, as they had like an episode or two with caulifla and kale and the moments of cabba in the universe 6 tournament, so the concept was heavily rushed and very underwhelming. Before somebody retorts with "oh but goten and trunks just went super saiyan with no effort" I should say that I think that is just as lazy and unfortunate.
@@probablyseth3565 your lack of understanding to what the back tingle is referencing is ridiculous. The back tingle is nothing more than Cabba describing what it feels like when he transformed, that's no different than even Goku teaching Gohan how it feels to transform just in different words. Also you're putting the blame on the wrong person. You babble on about back tingle, but yet somehow the Super Saiyan bargain sale is perfectly a-okay with you. Yup let's just completely ignore that because the Saiyan prodigy ruined the transformation yup. Did you even read literally anything I said before replying to me?
@@ParadiseDB7 And it's clear to me that you didn't understand a single thing that I said and as such nothing I will say in defence of my sentiment will be acknowledged by you so I won't even bother trying to explain myself
I agree, I loved seeing the brief glimpses of the different universes in the TOP and would love to have seen more. I love a lot of the ideas behind Dragon Ball Kakumei and am generally surprised that DBS didn't go all out with Spin offs with more focus on the different universes (think of the MERCHANDISING!). Kakumei comes close to scratching the itch of seeing more of the different universes, but it also has the issue a lot of fan fiction has which is it takes itself a tad too seriously and has a very different tone from DBZ/DBS (most obvious with what feels like a grudge against the U6 saiyans with Vegeta literally dominating over them hehe). If there were a training arc between Vegeta and the U6 saiyans I would imagine Kabba and Vegeta taking a more collaborative approach given how Kabba not only very quickly grasped SS but also taught it in a way that evidently worked for the U6 saiyans.... yes i'm sayying I wanna see them going all out with the goofy explanations for saiyan power ups, SS1? Tickly back. SS2? Scratchy ear. SSGSS? Twitching the Left butt cheek etc
I really loved SsjR even though it was just pink Super Saiyan hair but man it looked great on Goku Black. Super Saiyan God was a cool form, i really loved the firey aura the form gave off. Ultra Ego I really liked how menacing Vegeta looked when he tapped into that form and the purple flames? To me thats just a chef's kiss. Black Freeza I liked as well but I do wish they made it an actual transformation similar to Cooler instead of a simple color swap, Golden Freeza I can forgive because Freeza made the color of the form gold for the sake of mocking the golden hair of a Super Saiyan. Orange Piccolo was nice and all, the dude looked like an absolute gigachad. But..Beast Gohan..I'm gonna be honest, I'm not too big on that form. The design to me is meh at best but the way it was demonstrated came from absolutely nowhere which is why I hope the manga at least covers that part up as much as a waste of time its going through at the moment
I sorta groaned a little when I heard Gohan was getting a new form. One of my favorite forms in the whole series is Gohan's mystic form because it is a testament to his individuality and an expression of the power we knew was hidden in him for so long. I only ever wanted Gohan to improve upon himself in that state, instead of some flashy new Super Saiyan form.
@@Ethan-wr2os Or the clear and obvious ripoff of SSJ2 Gohan during the Cell Games. And vs Cell (Max) to boot. I still really enjoyed that movie, like a lot, but Gohan in the final act just brought it down for me. Orange Piccolo, though, I thought that was great.
@@kefkamadman me too, in general the movie was awesome for me and actually laugh-out-loud funny in some places. But the Gohan moment was that one drawback for me. Still super stoked that we basically had a Piccolo movie, I was missing the green homie
I still stand by the Spirit bomb and SSJ God are two different mentalities. One is a technique that is active in gathering power and takes time to learn and manipulate. The other is passive and takes no effort on the part of the recipient. It’s the measure of goku’s earnest nature. He didn’t train to use SSJ and it’s so far beyond him he “couldn’t reach it on his own” the spirit bomb power always got surpassed by Goku and he had to train to gather the energy. So no I do not believe that a comparison of the two is fair
Not just that, there is a huuuuuuuge difference between borrowing energy for an attack vs taking energy for a power up that Goku eventually absorbed and permanently kept.
Instead of introducing SSJ Blue (which is basically just a recoloring of the normal SSJ) they should show Goku and Vegeta's journey to learning how to use SSJ God by themselves.
@@God_Enjoyer honestly it’s not. All they did was infuse SsJ with God ki. It replaced SSJ God immediately in Res.F ,which is ridiculous because we were just introduced to SsJ God and now we get rid of it in the anime. It felt like SSJ blue happened too quickly only for Frieza to get a Golden form and reach near their level. Honestly Blue isn’t that big of a deal, and isn’t all that cool, but that’s just my opinion.
@@God_Enjoyer Hell No. Blue design was just as lazy as it’s writing. It came out of nowhere and pretty much acted like how everyone treated the OG Super Sayian but Blue
What blue wanted to be is what ultra instinct and ultra ego are, evolutions of Goku and Vegeta strengths from god and saiyan might alongside their ideals. Goku as a martial artist saiyan raised on earth, Vegeta the prideful warrior.
This. Goku going god all and his own without needing the ritual anymore and Vegeta going god for the first time on screen could have both been sufficiently dramatic moments for the movie... but MARKETING demands new transformations so they can make even more toys and other collectible merchandise. Pretty much the same reason UI sign was inadequate, and we also had the much more overtly different form of mastered UI forced out as well.
I don't always agree with Masako on everything but he absolutely feels like he genuinely likes super and Dragonball as a whole. I feel like a lot of Dragonball "fans" have so many bizarre complaints about power scaling or bad writing in super that have been there at least since the start of Z that I genuinely don't know how they ever liked Dragonball to begin with.
@@Kobolds_in_a_trenchcoat Because people try to make a science out of the numbers pertaining to the characters and I blame power levels for this lol. Since their introduction people argue about power scaling too much. But the series itself began to show that numbers meant almost nothing and that using scouters are not an indication of a fighter's true abilities, and I think people need to take that approach more. Trying to apply logic and numbers to a series like this only causes people to fight over something that doesn't matter. People should just be enjoying the series instead of fighting over power scaling. It's so silly and the points people make to back up their power claims sound like head-canon, for the most part.
@@Ethan-wr2os totally agree with you. But I think people also just want to make sense of some of the more ridiculous scenes. For example how kefla and co. could be any challenge when they have no fighting experience at all.
@@lightborn9071 that I can agree with tbh because that comes more into their actual fighting ability. I did however like the scene where Goku is fighting them both at Super Saiyan while he was in his base form, showing experience and martial prowess can overcome sheer power. I'm hoping Dragon Ball keeps martial arts philosophy as an important theme and I thought Ultra Instinct was good for that. The idea behind it is the kind of stuff Bruce Lee was talking about
There needs to be a hard power cap that forces Goku and Co to start fighting more intelligently and use special techniques to eliminate the power creep.
This got me thinking of a Daily mission from Genshin Impact, honestly. A writer and editor are arguing about the writer failing to meet the deadline, and you following along with the writer to make sure they're getting *inspiration* and not goofing off (so the writer can have a witness that he IS working). It plays out one of several different ways, but the editor's argument kind of stands.... The guy keeps coming up with new powers out of nowhere, and has to keep notes just so HE can remember all of it. Are the *readers* supposed to be keeping notes, too? He WANTS to trust his writer, but as an editor he's seen a lot of series make the same mistakes. On the opposite ending, the writer points out all of the other novels the company is selling that did exactly what the editor wanted and *HOW* they failed, and why he keeps copies of those books around to remind himself how not to screw up his own stuff. The two eventually reach a middle ground.. temporarily. Doing that quest made me seriously look at Dragon Ball (and most shonen series in *general*) and kind of feel that there's ways to make it work... and ways it doesn't. I think Toriyama's got an okay handle on some of it (Toyotaro, maybe not so much as the Ultra Instinct bullet point showed), but that doesn't mean it's *clean.* And once you screw up power creep enough times (Saiyan saga, Namek, Buu, Tournament of Power) it can just start to feel *exhausting* or like the power levels don't really matter. And that sucks, because it makes it harder to get invested. Hopefully they can work it out, because Super has done some genuinely cool things.
I understand most of these criticism, even if I don't agree with all of them. Two, in particular stand out to me. First, the potara thing wasn't a retcon, technically, it still makes the two different fusion a bit pointless. I mean the potara method is faster, I guess... That's a difference. It still wasn't a good decision. Second, Gohan Beast is a bad transformation (esthetically) and need a proper justification. With that said, Gohan using the Makankosappo (spelling?) was just perfect.
I think keeping Goku's personality in UI makes sense to the form, this brings him closer to Whis' UI, but his way to fight should be calm and automatic
3:05 It isn't banned in Argentina anymore for almost a year now... But it didn't return to Cartoon Network but another Warner Bros channel. I suppose the agreement was: "just don't show it on the kids channel, it's a bad influence." So now is the parents problem if their kid changes the channel. Mind you, i don't know if the kept "that episode".
Some of these are somewhat reasonable, some of them are nitpicky, but man, the power creep comment was 100% on point, and the cerelean dragon balls were the most plot-devicey thing we've seen, there was no adventure or arc in retrieving them. Most of these are not the worst decisions in super, there's far.. far worse ones than most of these (except the power creep and Cerelean dragon balls)
Completely agree on "Beast", it just looks so stupid and so lazy, let's just take SSJ2, extend it's hair to comical lengths (That one DBZ Parody from Kids Next Door anyone?), and give it the "Vampire" color scheme of silver hair and red eyes, TOTALLY works.... And even that is setting aside my childish bias against it and MUI both, lol....
I'm just going to put this here cuz it's the latest video. I think it'd be cool to see if a what if Goku started a dojo and passed down the turtle hermit way to apprentices. I think it would be a nice opportunity to either introduce new human characters or show human characters that we already know earlier ( like showing Sharpener, Videl, and maybe erasa learning under Goku early on in the story). I think it would be a nice opportunity to test out the limits of humans again, since they don't get too much spot light. Also leading a dojo sounds like a better job than being a farmer for Goku lol
What pisses me off is that they gave Frieza yet another transformation, which means Goku will have to unlock another transformation beyond Ultra Instinct, rinse, repeat, etc. Like come on. Enough already.
@@thedead073 That assessment just ignores the entire concepts behind the forms including the training Goku and Vegeta did to obtain and develop them. They aren't just simple power boosts.
My take is that super has a lot of really good ideas but have almost never stuck the landing on any of them. Tornament of power, great idea, terrible execution. it was less of a Tournament and more of a free-for-all slug fest. A lot of the New Character designs felt samey. And it all came down to, "everyone but the strongest 4 are just filler." Ultra instinct, awesome in concept but in practice just became another transformation. I grew up with OG dragonball so anytime they prioritize technique over raw power I get excited. When Whis told Goku the exact same lesson that both Roshi and Mr Popo taught him many years ago, i thought Goku would actually start cooling his head and focus less on the greatest power up. Then UI shows up and they'e talking about how it's the ultimate technique. The peak of effieciency and skill. but then Goku goes on about how consumes too much energy and it's treated as another transformation from then on. Even the Design of it is lack luster. When it first showed up in the Anime it was just a silver silhouette and I thought that was RAW AS HELL. Then Goku "masters" it and it become Goku but silver hair. Goku Black? also a really cool idea but became convoluted and honestly boring. Zamastu was on Okay villain but he felt completely out of place in an arc about a mysterious evil Goku. The ending of that arc is by far the worst ending to an anime arc i've ever seen. Granola was another arc that felt interesting in concept but failed in execution but I chalk that up to where in the timeline it was. Granola felt like it was A DBZ scale arc but because Goku and Vegeta were at god levels at that point, the story quickly spiraled out of control. Should've been a movie or Omake. Moro was also really cool but it starting diving into a lot of the same flaws that the Majin Buu arc had where the villain kept spontaniously transforming, gaining new powers, devolving, reevolving, and Dividing everytime the heroes got the upper hand just to keep extending the fight. This is what happens when your arc is almost exclusively fighting one guy. Super Super Hero was also neat in concept but was practically just BioBroly, mecha cooler, and cyborg frieza again. An old powerful foe rebuild bigger and stronger than before. Piccolo and Pan were great but they seriously need to stop naming transformations after colors. The only Super stories I didn't have any problems with were The Universe 7 vs 6 arc and the Broly Movie.
Y'see, I have never understood the reasoning why people hated this so much. I really have no strong feeling on it one way or the other, but no one has ever explained what it is exactly they don't like about that particular decision... especially since the Goku in Super acts like a kid. Sorry, couldn't help it.
Honestly I really liked when Goku turned into a kid, thought it was a good idea and handled decently The only thing I didn’t like was how long it dragged the journey of reverting Goku back to normal age. Half the time it felt like filler
If Beast Gohan was explained as Gohan using the Wrathful form which mutated because of Gohan's potential being unleashed than maybe I could like it but since it isn't than I hate it
@@furiousgamerxz5141 i mean you can disagree that its the best part but the rest is just facts. Beast is just Mystic 2 and not related to super saiyan or saiyan forms/powers at all.
I'm more bothered by the fact that in spite of Super giving us 3 "tournaments" (if you count the Zeno Expo as one) none of them actually felt like a proper Dragon Ball tournament.
0:01 Akira Toriyama created Battle of Gods, Resurrection F and Dragon Ball Super because he was *absolutely livid* at the existence of Dragon Ball Evolution that made a mockery of his creation.
Making SS Blue. God having a time limit makes it interesting in fights. Will they win before it runs out? Does Goku want to save it for later or dive in full blast? Great drama and story telling opportunities
At a surface level, it had decent points ultimately what’s wrong with DBS is the heavy, obvious marketing executive influences. Because it’s the only logical explanation for a lot of potholes and lazy design work due to not truly needing them, when your primary objective is pushing merchandise in the cheapest way possible.
I still feel like the reason Krilin and Master Roshi could do stuff there was not because of their power, but their skills and experience. Letting them shine a bit, predicting the moves of less refined and/or less experienced opponents.
Here is an Idea what they could use with Ultra instinct since it is still considered Ki of the gods right and Goku or Vegeta clearly struggles to blend the two with there saiyan Ki like super saiyan blue they should just focus on that concept in general. The reason why Goku can hold the form long because well he is only mortal.
I see beast as an extension to potential unleashed and ssj mix and i like when piccolo told gohan to finish it continuing the streak that when gohan is overwhelming an opponent he gets cocky
3:15 for the Potara Fusion one I agree that the drawback did get retconned. But realistically it wasn't retconned in the Goku Black Saga, but rather in the Buu Saga. In Buu, it's just guessed "maybe it was Buu's magic that undid the fusion". There was never an explanation of why non Kai's unfused. The whole point of that fusion was that it is permanent, yes. But that rule is never followed for mortals anyway in DBZ. Super then gives an explanation that can apply to the change that was made in the Buu saga already.
I'd go one step beyond the Universes feeling dry and say the ToP was a fumble in terms of showing the interesting things other universes can do. They were either reduced to gimmicks, bad character designs and just felt very powerless compared to the power level we're accostumed to. A lot of the fights felt meaningless(like Tien's and Krillin's), and some personal storytelling and connections(like Universe 9) were completely tossed aside. It would be better to focus on three or four universes than say the most powerful beings of other universes are quick character drafts that can barely handle a SSJ
It's always important to think past the article and view what works and what doesn't. Some points were valid, some were quite harsh and others were not fair at all.
I've never really understood the hate Super received, but I do think it's good to have videos like these because it's hard for someone who likes Super to be critical of it when others might take that criticism and blow it out of proportion. Looking at that list feels like a happy medium. I'll always defend Roshi though, love him coming back
Definitely agree that Super gets a lot of hate I don't understand either. Honestly, I think 99% of the criticism it gets is at least as applicable to Z.
@@Kobolds_in_a_trenchcoat Bad writing? Check. bad animation? Check lol. Z had both of these things in places. I think it's because there was such a huge expectation for a new Dragon Ball show and people were let down by a rocky start to the series. But I thoroughly enjoyed it and felt excited for the whole Dragon Ball series again as the show got better and better.
The power creep is another reason why a villian like MORO is cool. You couldn't just go full power on him, cause he would use it against you and drain you. Going in slow? He would drain you. It took litterly a technique that is ment to weaken a person's use of power to defeat him. THATS RIGHT PEOPLE! I think techniques should be focussed on, not the power creep. At this point in time the trope of more power ain't gonna fix it. Heck even Cell Max's defeat what was it? Was it a giant blast of energy that vaporizes him? NO! It was combined effort, where a PRECISE technique (Special Beam Cannon). would drill into a VITAL PART of CELL MAX to force him to SELF DESTRUCT! This is what I think DBS should focus on in the future and the key to defeating Black Freeza. Freeza goes to goku: "You can train all you like but I will stay ahead, you will never beat me," And goku then out techniques the stronger freeza with the help of Ultra instinct. It's why these days the best Kamehameha is the one vs Kefla. It outdid the Father/Son Kamehameha acording to some people, cause it was using the Technique in a bold new way... to win. No instant transmission to big blast, no power it up suddenly by help or such, no combined beam.. just... charging one up and using it to glide over the enemies own POWERFULL BEAM to then shoot it in their face OFF GUARD! And trust me.. this is what DBS has been improving with time. It's not POWER that wins the day most of the time, it's Techniques and Strategy. Using your tools correctly and more. Goku black arc/fused Zamasu: "Spirit Sword cutting him in half" Ressurection F: ...Off guard Kamehameha. Battle of Gods: ...Well this one doesnt count. Tournament of Power: Most of the KO's are by techniques then POWER STRUGGLES or Strategies. Heck the final win was Goku and Freeza using all their power to SHOVE JIREN OFF together! No epic beam struggle, no giant blast, no special techinque.. JUST SHOVING!
I had a really fun time watching super week by week when it was coming out especially since I had just finished everything else in the series at the time. It was really cool watching that for the first time when I was 16. Now I am older and I miss when I enjoyed super, it’s really hard for me to like it these days, I look back at all it could have been and just how dumb a lot of these decisions are. Yeah super did SOME cool things like the goku black arc had it’s moments (not gonna list off my complaints lol) but overall there were lots of things I would have liked to be different, at least I can still enjoy dragon ball and Z, and some parts of gt, and some of super I guess.
Ultra Instinct was different from the other transformations in that it wasn't just a power up that made him move faster or hit harder. It was a state of mind that allowed him to compete with Jiren... is what I thought it was during the half time show but they threw that away at the end and gave him white hair and turned it into another generic transformation with the difference being he can't do it at will.
I still feel like Freeza's return in the ToP would've worked better if Goku had played him. I swear they were setting that up and then Whis got involved and screwed up the plan. Freeza specifically says "The earth dragonballs are enough to bring me back to life" and Goku agrees to that. Goku knows the limits of the earth's dragonballs but Freeza doesn't. Goku could have kept his promise to "make the wish" to bring Freeza back to life and Shenron would've rejected it. Then Goku can tell him "Whoops. Well, I tried!". Probably while having the whole thing broadcast to Freeza in hell. And it would've been hilarious. When it comes to Gogeta, I don't think he's become Vegetto. He's definitely less stoic as he was in Fusion Reborn, but he also did take the fight against Broly much more seriously than Vegetto does in his fights. He transformed to match Broly quickly rather than doing a slow buildup/test of ability and throughout the fight he NEVER stopped attacking to try to humilate Broly.
The most important things about these articles to me, is that we either develop our opinions upon reading them, or have our own opinion while reading them. I remember especially when you criticized Goku getting his memories back from hearing Bardocks voice, I disagreed quite a lot. So my take away is, this is a great exercise in training yourself to gain/having your own opinion, and not mindlessly agreeing with a stranger on either the internet, or the news outlet
I honestly give the spirit bomb a pass; you still have to learn/ hone the technique of the spirit bomb, that attack or move even leaves you vulnerable; had the spirit bomb been an easy W, an easy clap then yes I would say it's out of character for Goku but the fact you have to put actual effort forward to learning it is another.
Honestly, I felt like Super Saiyan God was kind of a waste of a form and wasn't really explored as much as it maybe should have been. It got replaced by Blue almost immediately, and while the reasoning is sound of Blue basically being Super Saiyan but in God form it just turns Super Saiyan God into a stepping stone rather than this centuries old legendary power so mysterious even Vegeta, the resident Saiyan expert had no idea about and the God of Destruction Beerus waited specifically to fight against.
The whole Gogeta is fanservice thing is a little right when you think about the idea that Goku and Vegeta still had Evolution and Kaio-Ken x20 up their sleeves. (If you take the movie as Anime Only since in the manga they show us a panel of the Broly movie and its drastically different than the movie) (Broly is transformed inyo a super saiyan, the ice isn't broken, and both Goku and Vegeta are using Mastered Blue against him.)
The powercreep was so bad I remember it clear as day. After Goku vs Superman 2 everyone lost their minds. “What?! That’s nonsense! Superman, a veritable god capable of universal feats, couldn’t possibly walk through a SSJB full power kamehameha!” A short while later an untrained girl with a tingly back walked through a SSJB full power kamehameha and no one cared.
1:06 I think absorbing God was a mistake. Mostly because it absolutely obliterates DBS powerscaling. Because of this, base cabba can apparently solo the entirety of Z. It is the main reason for all these headaches imo
Anyone else feel like this video's ending was kinda abrupt? Great video though but like sora felt like it was missing you wrapping up your thoughts after the last entry.
I would have had Goku forgetting the talisman here but that’s just me. Though I think Goku being written as far more childish and dumb is the bigger issue.
This might be because my only engagement with DBZ has really been through the Abridged series (I did try the show before, I really did, but it just wasn't for me) but, honestly, I didn't understand the hype surrounding Ultra Instinct. When it first happened, my internet feed was losing its mind over how "radically different" the form looked and all I had to say was, "Wait, are you kidding me? That's literally just Goku: he just kinda glows a bit now." Then there was an upgrade to it and, again, people began freaking out, and all I could say was, "Still Goku. His hair's just white now." Like, I don't know, at least the big SS3 one looked visibly different. Silly, maybe, but different. I understand the hype for achieving a new level of mastery, fair enough, that makes sense, but the way people talked about the actual character design honestly just confused me. Like, what was the hype for?
Man a way to get another universe involved easily would be to have a g.o.d come to ask for U7’s help because they don’t want to ask another g.o.d directly.
Seriously, the Moro arc especially could have been set in another universes, especially after the Tournament of Power went and claimed there weren't supposed to be any strong fighters in U7 outside of those on Earth.
6:10 HUGE Disagree on this one. Ultra Instinct is the ONLY powerup in the Super Anime/Manga that is given the care and dedication that the biggest powerups in Z got (Super Saiyan Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan). Whis constantly lectured Goku about thinking too much when he fights and how he needs to "move without thinking". It goes beyond "this new transformation just gives them more power" like Super Saiyan Blue for example. And it also harkens back to the core fundamentals of Martial Arts, which the franchise has been getting away from for a long time.
one of the worst writing decisions of Super has been that they haven't repurposed Super Saiyan 4 by retconning it to be the great ape form with God Ki like how super saiyan blue is just plain old super saiyan but with God Ki.
I know that, even in the series they joked about not thinking of yamcha but come on yamcha can hold his own. He certainly would’ve been a better choice than master Roshi.
Given that Yamcha uses his abilities for agility as seen in episode 69 of the Super anime, he could have some wins against lower-powered people from other universes given that technique did enough for Master Roshi.
I love Gogeta, he's my preferred fusion...but the base purpose for him in the movie was to act as the big finisher. I'd want to see him again and always hanker for the Fusion Reborn iteration.
@@MasakoX another Gogeta enjoyer I see. In all seriousness, that's how I feel as well. DBS Gogeta was cool but I sort of wish we got the stoic Gogeta from Fusion Reborn. This new one, as you said in the video, resembles Vegito in personality which is kind of a bummer. He's still really cool though.
i feel like frieza replacing majin buu in TOP was genius! It was a plot twist nobody expected to the point they even changed the opening. Personally I think frieza did a great job and was more interesting than buu
Herrs what i think. I feel like after the fight, instead of keeping all of the god ki, a small portion sgould have been left in there. Like having soke gas in your csr but you lost your keys. So instead of Goku having access to Super Saiyan God, he'd have the potential to access it. Leading to Super Saiyan God to being developed over time, and making it feel more impactful. Same goes for blue. If they paced it better the tournament wouldnt have felt as ridiculous imo. You litterally have Goku a man able to go to to toe with gods getting backed into a corner by 2 people that got a tingly feeling. Granted they fused but its like all of his years of hard work, trauma, and sacrafice was for nothing. If they paced the god forms better, i feel like the tourney wouldve had a better reception.
6:19 agree, though that's also what super saiyan god and blue are as well, for some reason ultra instict feels even worst. Is true that the original super saiyan Transformations were also like that, but they don't feel like it, they had something behaind them, it feels like they came from somewere. 10:17 agree. I actually agree whit most of this.
I dunno. When it comes to god ki and the kamehameha I feel there would be a scale of expectation. For example I could learn how to ride a bike after just 1 explanation. Sure. Can I fly a 747 jet after just 1 explaination? No of course not. And Goku learning how to use god ki so fast only diminishes what it means to be a god.
DBS in its entirety was one big bad writing decision. If you ask me, the #1 worst thing they did was add the other universes. Sure, it allows us to see alternate-universe Saiyans, but the fact that basically all of Universe 7's ToP fighters were from Earth kinda sums it all up - Dragonball barely explored Universe 7 and treated it like Earth with just a handful of other planets that were basically useless. But, again, Dragonball Super wasn't made with good writing in mind. They wanted a basic plot so Goku and Vegeta would keep getting new forms so new merchandise could be made and sold.
Maybe a hot take but making the dragon ball super manga was the worst thing they could of done because they rewrote so many cool character moments in the tournament of power from the anime and for whatever reason keeps shitting on Krillin.
How is there no mention of Future Trunks and Goku Black. That whole arc had potential until the ending pooped itself for no reason. Also Trunks X Mai is just creepy. Why?! Bulma has to know that's the same lady from when she was a teenager, right?
Instead of having future, Zeno destroy trunks his timeline and have him go to a back up timeline with there’s already another version of him. There have the supreme Kai of time fix things.
I think the Master Roshi thing is that he may not be as strong as the other fighters, but he's wiser and has a higher battle intellect than the others. Kind of like how Krillin and Piccolo usually comes up with the plans during battles while we wait for Goku and Vegeta to show up.
I’d honestly argue against Gogeta and Vegito being more or less the same. The the Broly movie, Gogeta actually possessed more Goku’s silly charm whilst containing some of Vegeta’s snarky attitude (in a more playful way to ally’s). Vegito contains most of Vegeta, that being his ego, which makes Vegito more snarky in battle. Like, all the time. He plays around and humiliates his opponents intentionally due to that, while Gogeta, who possesses more of Goku, wastes no time and chooses to get things done then and there. I think that canon Gogeta still retains his cool nature, just not in the exact same way. I love Vegito and Gogeta both since they have their own great and lovable personalities, but you can’t lie about who’s more efficient in a fight.
Actually, Z Vegito had a strategic reason for toying with Super Buu, and Vegito himself even reveals this in the manga. Vegito was messing with Super Buu on purpose to get him so desperate that he’d absorb Vegito, who would use an energy barrier to avoid adding to Buu’s power and then free everyone from the inside. Unfortunately this gets ignored and everyone (including the writers of Super) just assumed it was his personality, and not a tactical ploy.
My one issue with Goku absorbing the SSJ God power is that it turned the form irrelevant. I'll always be salty about SSJ Blue becoming the "mascot" of Super when God is superior in literally every way.
Ultra Instinct didn't come out of nowhere. The entire series hinted at it from the first time Goku and Vegeta fought with Beerus. If you were paying attention you wouldn't have been blindsided by it. I will say, though, that Goku mastering it so quickly was a bad idea. IMO Goku should have only momentarily accessed Ultra Instinct Sign in the Moro Arc and that it went from that to True Ultra Instinct. Mastered Ultra Instinct being fully accessible should be at the end of the series.
11:15. That kinda just sums up the Dragon Ball franchise at this point. We’ve seen it all before. There are around 6 people that can break universes at this point. UNIVERSES. How do you have stakes? How do you have contests? Who could possibly be a threat? How do you come up with new powers when the powers are already godly? Answer is you can’t. Dragon Ball has gone through the whole Stakes Creep process. From world, to space, to universe, to multiverse, to spirit world. There’s nowhere to go from here. They’ve reached the ceiling. The only thing the writers can do is keep throwing them back into that ceiling, or drop them down the ladder a bit by repeating previously achieved feats. But, really, Dragon Ball needs to end. Or, at least, it needs to stop focusing in the same group if it wants to stay relevant. It’s why people love Masako’s What If series, especially Raditz’s. Following Ranch is great. It’s a fresh perspective that lives alongside the insanely powerful people. That’s what Dragon Ball needs to do, and seems to be doing with that new Raditz Lives manga.
![[DRAGON BALL LEGENDS REVEALS ＆ STUFF] LEGENDS FESTIVAL 2024 Special Edition Final](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Nxs0CXRflEw/mqdefault.jpg)
Do you feel that this article had some good points or was it unfair to Super?
I'm surprised the didn't mention the Zeno button ending
How did nothing from the Goku Black saga make this list??
massively unfair.
I feel like going down this list, its more so a collection of things I've seen raised by various UA-camrs, but with various points missed or as if the points were noticed, but the explanations given by said UA-camrs was ignored to some extent. It just made me think of PlagueOfGripes video on certain topics, as well as points that came up here briefly.
If I was going to give a big criticism, I'd say Super has tried to connect certain Dragon Ball aspects with Dragon Ball Z aspects in a messy way, but that's just me and even then I find it difficult to explain :P
It's CBR... They don't really do their research.
My only problem with Ultra Instinct is that the goal post keeps changing. In the Moro arc, we finally thought Goku had it, but suddenly there’s this out of nowhere caveat of it becoming less accurate the longer it’s used. Toyotaro admitted he had to find a way to handicap it in an interview. Another thing is, the manga’s interpretation makes Ultra Instinct feel tranquil and calm while the anime feels closer to the current “True Ultra Instinct."
Agreed. It's like they Toyotaro has to keep handicapping UI so it doesn't replace the Super Saiyan transformations. But he had a great idea with Moro. Make a villain weaker than Goku and Vegeta, and have them use their brain rather than pure strength to win, while also giving UI the same downside the anime did, not being able to spam it because Goku is still mortal.
More like they made Ultra Instinct have several versions at once lol
UI was always less accurate and eventually burned out in every arc it was used. Jiren he burned out, Moro he burned out, and Granolah he burned out.
@@S31KO. That's not what I said though, we all know there's a time limit. I said that there's a new caveat being that it becomes less and less accurate the longer it's used and it's already been proven that this is a new caveat because Toyotaro said it himself.
@@StanTheBland Nope stamina drains is the reason ui gets less accurate that's already explained in manga T0P
Gotta agree with number 10 actually. If Goku never "absorbed" Super Saiyan God or whatever, pretty much all power scaling problems would be fixed. Goku chasing after the power that he felt but from his training rather than ritual would explain a huge amount of his Super characterisation - he fights to better himself, not to be better than anyone else and having the memory of how far he could go but knowing he isn't there yet would be a fascinating motivational factor for him.
Beerus would remain feeling as ludicrously overpowered as they keep acting like he is (him one-shotting post-ToP Vegeta recently in the manga for example) while actually improving a lot of his gags - the uncomfortable spectre of a lot of Beerus scenes is the question of "is he that strong now?" His behaviour around Zeno for example would be much funnier if we weren't wondering stupid stuff like "okay, but is Vegito stronger than Beerus?" If we had a solid ground of "yes he is and the gap between them is so vast the main character's entire motivation is reaching the level of Not Good Enough" then Beerus being scared and Goku being chummy would really land properly as absurd.
Jiren wouldn't necessarily have to be stronger than a God of Destruction, UI being an angelic technique wouldn't lead to "how long until this gets power crept" but "how long until this is ready and how far can it go", the gap between the non-Saiyans would be so much smaller and less ridiculous meaning more chance for character variety...
Honestly, the domino effect of giving Goku a clearer, achievable motivation is pretty darn big.
EXACTLY
It wouldn't totally fix the power scaling, I mean Krillin, Tien, and even Piccolo had basically become irrelevant as fighters by the Buu saga, but it would dramatically lessen the issue.
Thats basically what I headcanon it as tbh. Theres no actual reason why the power they've achieved nowadays has to be stronger than the Battle of Gods ritual incarnation. In general I view power levels as way lower than most fans (because thats what the show actually tells us, the fans numbers are clearly wrong). As soon as you aren't shackled by old non canon guidebook multipliers the power creep issue becomes completely irrelevant. Its clear that the numbers fans were using have been wrong the whole time, the show isn't treating Yamcha like the galaxy buster he would have to be for those numbers to make sense. Therefore the numbers are obviously wrong.
It didn't matter in the end because Vegeta ends up being equivalent or slightly stronger after BoG, as he trained to achieve said power. So, they kinda ruined how strong the power provides just by taking 6-12 months to achieve it lol.
@@Shiyoken exactly. they should've done the ritual again for Vegeta instead of just training.
The other universes are missed opportunities, too. One of the biggest revelations in BOG was that there were other universes, but we've barely done anything with them.
It's not like DragonBall even need whole other universes in the first place, when it's barely ever explored more than a handful of other planets.
@@EmeralBookwise Facts! and they’ve barely scratched the surface in terms of lore an exploration..
I'm surprised the ending to Goku black didn't show up on the list. Xeno button and all that.
Super has always had questionable writing. Don't agree with the whole list but id say the power creep during ToP is pretty big contender
I'd say all of the arcs kind of drop the ball at the end. Movies aside, the original tournament kind of petered out, Xeno button in Goku Black, and the "lol it was all a joke/test" retcon at the end of the ToP.
It's funny because it's one of the most literal examples of a Deus Ex machina in modern fiction
It’s even worse because Goku Black was TERRIFYING. Seeing him sorta … just… turn off? Sad.
The fact that Frieza who was bested by namek Goku was able to catch up to post buu super sayian blue Goku in 4 months kinda shows how ridiculous the power creep is in super.
My worst gripe with Potara Fusion's retcon is that it was unneccessary. Just two arcs previously, we had seen that Porunga has the power to undo potara fusion, separating Shin and Kibito, so there already was a way for Goku and Vegeta to not be stuck as Vegetto permanently. Okay, but we needed a way for Vegetto to not beat Zamasu all on his own. That's fair. But why not use Goku Black's scythe? Black himself said even he did not understand its full potential, but we never really got to see it do anything interesting. Merged Zamasu could, in a moment of desparation, conjure the scythe and use it to slice Vegetto in two, breaking his fusion apart. In writing, you should typically expand on what you have before you create something new. In retconning Potara Fusion, Super added unneccessary bloat to Dragon Ball lore while leaving several loose ends that seemed to be set up almost perfectly to solve permanent Potara Fusion in the first place.
Damn those solutions for breaking the Vegito fusion sound pretty sensible compared to the anime retconning its own lore. I especially like the idea of Zamasu using his scythe to separate the fusion
the thing is it isn't a recton? in z vegito didn't defuse from buu but the time limit. the potara effects wasn't known about mortals as goku and vegeta were the first mortals to do that. also it was shown and known that gotenks had never defused meaning that the whole buu magic gets rid of fusion gets thrown out the window. it doesn't ruin anything just explain why vegito defused.
@女神aqua dude a retcon is any new info that changes a previous establish element.
The fusion dance and potato were firmly establish to be very different things. Also, unlike Vegito Gotenks was actually absorbed by Buu. Vegito used an energy barrier to block it.
@@JohnWilliams-wl9px question can you read? because in what way does explaining why vegito defused change anything especially when mortal to mortal potara fusion has never happened? nothing was changed it was just explained why he defused and if it wasn't rectonned then vegito would've stayed fused obviously
@@aqua6166 I can, but you clearly can't since you don't know what a retcon is. A retcon is any new info that changes an established element.
It's not always something like how the Spiderman comics Gwen Stacy was retcon from just Peter's girlfriend into having having a affair with Norman Osborne.
Retcon can just add stuff that wasn't there originally like how Goku was retcon into being an alien. It doesn't contradict any old info but it is new information.
The thing with the universes is I think they were in over their head and abandoned the idea. We got 4 new arcs/movies after the ToP and they haven’t left Universe 7. I think they don’t have faith in the characters and stories of the other universes
Problem being that we already saw most of the strongest people in every universe during ToP.
They arent that strong.
dragon ball in its entirety including Z doesnt make sense overall
I’m pretty sure a couple universes were left out of the tourney for being too strong on average though, so that’s potential.
Honestly, they never needed to be entire other universes in the first place. A universe is such an insanely big place, and nothing Z ever did even required them to travel beyond a single galaxy. So when super wanted to expand things, they could have just done so by introducing more galaxies.
Heck, even the other group of Saiyans didn't require alternate universes to exist since the original Saiyan home world is supposed to have been destroyed long ago and planet Vegeta was just someplace some of the survivors conquered. As such Cabba, Caulifla, and Kale could have all just been descendants of a different group of survivors that settled elsewhere.
Seriously though, it's a very clear case of the authors having no sense of scale, especially during the tournament of power when it revealed that despite ostensibly having an entire UNIVERSE to recruit from, supposedly there isn't even one single fighter anywhere except Earth capable of making the cut for team U7.
@@EmeralBookwise i do feel like having the U6 saiyans just be from a different group of survivors would cheapen the whole Saiyans are near extinct thing they have going on.
My main issue with beast Gohan is the same as with SS Rage for Trunks - it seems to not have any lore at all, it's just there with no explanation. Or at least, if there is an explanation, I've missed it. Same kinda goes for Broly but at least they tried to make that make some kind of sense and the explanation that eventually came was pretty good I'd say.
I’d agree. With Broly they made clear that, like Kale, he’s an exception to normal power growth (granted it got really absurd power wise with the implication that a saiyan from a far off planet could somehow compete with ssb goku and vegeta and completely outclass them but I digress). With Gohan, the only explanation is the usual “Gohan threw a tantrum and is now the strongestestest ever”. It’s cheap writing and it makes it clear that Gohan was never supposed to be in the movie, just mandated by execs.
hopefully the manga retelling of the arc ends up explaining it.
yeah, there's really no actual explanation given, but I'm sure they're going to provide one whenever that form returns
here's my thoughts, though, if you'd like: Beast is sort of Gohsn's special version of SS3; the form does boast considerably longer hair similar to 3 and Gohan himself hasn't ever shown whether he achieved 3 or not, as for the power difference between Beast and 3, remember how it was stated that Gohan's SS2 was far more stronger as a kid than as an adult, well this could be that (there's also the Mystic form boost to be considered here)
@@mastergreeen1385 My guess is kinda similar, that this is Gohan stacking SS2 (or maybe 3) on top of Mystic. We've seen him be able to stack SS1 on mystic, so this might just be the next step up that ladder.
@@thecod2345 I actually think Gohan Beast has a good explanation (or potential explanation at least) with his ultimate form. No one else has that and Elder Kai did it, so it makes sense he'd be at least god level with another form on top of it.
Broly on the other hand feels incredibly cheap and unearned. Don't get me wrong, him being strong is fine but strong enough to fairly easily and quickly beat blue Vegeta, blue Goku, golden Frieza, and then at least not get trounced by Gogeta is absurd. A fused Kefla couldn't come close and she has both legendary super saiyan rage and fusion on top of that. This backwater saiyan who can barely speak and hasn't had proper training is somehow that powerful? Gohan at least has some real training and real experience under his belt.
Personally I think the two best and perhaps only good transformations to come out of Super in my opinion were the original SSJ God, and Ultra Instinct
They just fit so extremely well, and the former got robbed hard. I assume the latter at least has more respect in the show and manga?
Also, Frieza black? Really? Piccolo orange? Now they’re just taking the piss, come on
I would personally agree. Both forms were received very well and had some good logic behind them and the manga definitely added some future scope of refining UI and now being a parallel to UE.
@@MasakoX Oh right, I forgot UE happened! That one is good too!
Also ayyy I was noticed by the funny what if guy who does the Goku voices!
I love your content though, in all seriousness. Keep it up, your channel is like a haven after TFS formally retired their DBZA efforts.
Super say what you will had the best transformations lol
@@ramenbomberdeluxe4958 Piss Krillindog
In the tournament of power, in the anime, it was like every universe was lining up just to be knocked off by U7. How in a “battle royale” did the majority of fighters fight and get eliminated by nothjng but U7. I would have liked more chaos, and crossover, less U7 beating EVERYONE.
I hated that so much. Worst battle royale, I would have preferred a normal tournament
I think the reason for that is that most, if not all, universes had a common hatred for U7 as they were the reason for the TOP to begin with, so they all tried targeting them; however, it turns out that U7, despite having one of the lowest average mortal power levels, does possess some of the strongest beings in existence, so all those universes ended up getting trounced
TLDR: Everyone targeted U7 but also underestimated it
@@mastergreeen1385 It is explained but I still would have liked a more chaotic tournament.
@@mastergreeen1385 Still doesn't mean that was the best way to write that, they didn't have to make it where Universe 7 had the strongest fighters, they don't need to make universe 7 THAT special.
@2000wires I guess the writers didn't have many options; see, U7 has to be the winner, not just because they're the "protagonist" but also because them losing means they get wiped out of existence with no guarantee that someone from another universe would be as selfless as 17 to wish them all back. In order to make that victory possible, they had to write the other teams as being mostly weak or similar to U7 in that only a few of the members are really super strong; if all the other universes really had super strong fighters on par with Goku and Vegeta then about half of U7 team would've gotten smoked in the first few minutes
TLDR; the writers wrote themselves into a corner
Something I find really funny about Ultra Instinct is that its actually a thing in real life and is a relatively low bar. The entire point of martial arts training is to train your muscle memory so that you react without thinking while maintaining good form. You aren't supposed to be thinking "okay I'll do a knife hand here, then a left hook", you just train those moves so that when you're in that situation your body can just do it automatically.
Dragon Ball treating "moving automatically on instinct" like its some legendary, impossible to achieve feat when IRL its, from what I understand, the bare minimum to have actually become a trained martial artist, is really funny to me.
I think it might at least partly be because DBZ and by extension DBS had long ago moved past regular old martial arts. The implication being that all the ki blasts and transformations the franchise has become famous for require intense concentration that otherwise prohibits that kind of automatic responses.
This especially seems the case in the Manga, where Roshi, a much more old-school martial artist without all the fancy tricks, was still able to move in a similarly autonomous fashion.
It's fun to know that Kyle Hebert enjoyed doing the Beast Gohan voice. He just became Batman all of the sudden. That part of the dub was both cool and hilarious at the same time. XD
Hey there Fox.
@@dmitribrutus5543 What's up, db? ^^
@@FoxsDumbSeriesMaker Nothing much. Just watching some UA-cam videos.
@@dmitribrutus5543 Same. Just watching some Masako vids during my breaks at work.
@@FoxsDumbSeriesMaker I see, glad to see you’re doing well. I missed you man.
I still like the idea of Gogeta and Vegito showing different tendencies. It just makes things more interesting it.
It's only more "interesting" in what if scenarios where Gogeta and Vegetto fight each other... but otherwise it never made much sense for them to have different personalities when they are literally made from the same to components.
Really, it makes more sense that they were always the same and that the only reason Gogeta ever seemed more "serious" is because he always knew he was working with a time limit and so couldn't risk wasting any of it. Also, it's not like Vegitto played around with Buu out of pure ego. It was explained that it was always his intention to goad Buu into trying to absorb him so that he could rescue others who had already been absorbed.
So naturally when we see Vegitto fight Zamasu, where he both has no ulterior goals and knows he's on time limit, he fights a lot more seriously than he ever did against Buu.
@@EmeralBookwise Did Vegito always know? I've always taken it as Buus' fault from the "destroying you from the inside" line.
@@Xylospring With Vegetto's speed and strength? He could literally have just exploded Buu off of him before being absorbed. He literally beat Buu up as a candy.
It only makes sense that he KNEW Buu was going to try it, and was ready with a barrier to not get absorbed.
Honestly, I liked how Vegeta drove off the path of UI and went for something that eagerly stroked his ego. See what I did there?
Good wordplay there. I do feel UE is pretty neat.
I was going to say Vegeta probably saw Goku’s back exploding and spewing blood after extensive use of UI and thought “Yeah…Hard pass.”
2:24 It really doesn't make sense of Master Roshi being involved in Resurrection F as he would have been far weaker than Krillin, Tien, Chiaotzu and Yamcha who had been through a lot of training and experience when fighting planet busting aliens and androids despite not being able to catch up to Goku, Gohan, Vegeta and Piccolo.
Roshi shouldn't be able to beat Frieza Force mooks who are probably as strong as Saiyan Saga Raditz.
Honestly, I like Roshi and all, super cool character back in DB, and his fighting style as a true martial artist is cool... but his role was always as a teacher, if you want to bring him back, bring him back in that capacity, as he has no business fighting aliens, my man never stood a chance against Piccolo anyway.
I mean, it's not like Roshi is incapable of training.
While it was certainly believable in OG DB that when he saw how strong the new generation was he felt content to retire, but then as the years went on, especially as he witnessed just how much stronger all those planet busting aliens could be and as he saw his students surpass their limits over and over again, that he might likewise have realized he too still had so much more to learn and would start training again.
Ite entirely believable that roshi, with training, could beat raditz level enemies. The other humans literally did it.
@@bongosmcdongos4190 It's hardly believable that they could do so... solo training has always among the inconsistent things in DB, sometimes it works really well and sometimes it doesn't.
I think it's fair to assume Roshi trained at least 50 years of his life, most likely 300, but he can't match King Piccolo. Does just knowing that "Hey Krillin could do it" enable him to reach a much higher point within significantly less time? If Toriyama says so.
After all, gravity training let Goku reach > Ginyu levels, you can't say it was the Zenkai Boost because Vegeta was stronger and got one too but got wrecked by Recoome, so then the only feasible explanation is that Goku got Zenkai boosts while training because the gravity was crushing his bones xD
Although I really enjoyed Super Hero for shining a spotlight on characters that deserved more attention and it's overall fun tone, I have to be honest and say I wasn't a big fan of Beast Gohan. It came out of nowhere with no explanation as to what it is and how it was achieved. It was also very clear nostalgia pandering to SSJ2 Gohan with it's transformation and design, except it looks far more ridiculous.
I liked Orange Piccolo much more, but even that I had issue with how it was achieved. I've been noticing a worrying trend in Super with characters just wishing for more power rather than earning it.
Beast Gohan was a mix of nostalgia bait and old memes.
Frankly I feel like most of Gohan's power ups aren't 'earned', he isn't like Goku. He gets power when he needs it because he needs it. More importantly, there's a great video on here about Orange Piccolo by Carthu's Dojo, pretty solid explanation for why him wishing for it kind of works.
Obviously, Beast exists for the same reason as most new transformations... MARKETING!
Naritively it should have been enough for Gohan to just unleash his full rage while in ultimate form without needing any visual distinction but giving him different color over the top hair is just one more way to make even more variant toys and merchandise of the same few popular characters for collectors to splurge on.
@@craigyeah1052 I actually don't mind Gohans power but I have a problem with how they wrote his hybrid potential as an excuse to give him power ups rather show him training and working towards it, cause the hybrid potential thing is getting annoying especially since it seems like it only applies to Gohan and not trunks and goten
@@Metro.... 100% agreed on the weird inconsistancy, where trunks and goten got SSJ super early but then proceeded to just not be relevant despite being more into training than Gohan.
Honestly, Goku's repertoire being a cavolcade of his friends' and (former) enemies' techniques kind of makes sense, from what I know about the Monkey King.
This was espically true back in OG Dragonball. He would just pull off other peoples techniques on their asses in the middle of a fight, like the Solar Flare.
Even dbs as a whole is a reference to Sun Wukongs time with the gods.
Before he defeated their armies, got 'refined' in the godly kiln, wreaked havoc in heaven and finally got tricked by Buddha.
I definitely 1000% agree with number 6, ever since the TOP I've been waiting to see more from at least the U6 Saiyan's and the pride troopers, but since then they've barley been mentioned, huge missed opportunity imo, also kinda agree with he beast gohan thing, I watched super hero for the first time last week and was kinda disappointed with how they treated gohan in that movie in general
I didn't mind Gohan Beast much since I just headcanon it's an actual follow up to the pre-TOP episode where Gohan wanted to explore his ultimate form further. They really do need to have Gohan actually keep training instead of constantly regressing though. It is in-character but it's getting a little old at this point to keep retreading the same ground.
Because Super hero was originally supposed to be a Piccolo movie. Once you know this information a lot, script-wise not in-universe make more sense.
@@gadaddo4794 I definitely picked up during the movie, I think the problem is the trailers and seeing beast Gohan everywhere for the past few months made me think it was a Gohan movie, which gave me expectations that weren't met, and I was originally upset because of it. I did watch totallynotmark's review on the movie however and I want to try again this time purely to enjoy myself
the idea of ultra instinct I think was perfectly fine, and how he unlocked it was not only reasonable but awesome.
However, the fact that he reached the completed ultra instinct or the white hair (put away your glasses 🤓). he should've reached that point eventually, but not a few short minutes after reaching it initially
yeah i strongly agree.. them having goku reach it so soon was bogus and not a good idea AT ALL!
One can clearly see they had no time for any story anymore and just pressed everything together for the TOP. It feels SO rushed.
They needed to Flesh out Super Saiyan God SOOOOOO Much More. Getting Super Saiyan Blue immediately after the next arc completely sidelines SSG. Not to mention the fact that it gets used as the go-to form repeatedly only to get stomped on relatively quickly.
Ultra Instinct honestly confuses me since it was INITALLY described as a technique, but the fact there’s a Transformation linked to it leaves me scratching my head sometimes. Not to mention True Ultra Instinct in the manga just feels like a step backwards to me. You go from training to avoid having to your emotions interfere to use it fully, to completely using your emotions to use it better than MASTERED Ultra Instinct??? Bruh.
Also Beast Gohan. Everything said in the article I agree with as well. While the agree the reveal was SICK, it DOES seem like an over-exaggerated version of SSJ2 Gohan. Plus they need to shorten the hair by like 5 FEET. 😅
The fast dumpstering of forms in the anime. Super Saiyan God was introduced once and wasn't used again. SS God should've had an arc or two where Goku/Vegeta gets accustomed to learning how to use their new Godlike powers.
The wet blanket that is Super Saiyan Blue. Its a similar issue to God. It was introduced too fast, got no development, and became just another angery SS form. Blue should've been the ultimate form of Super. Extremely powerful but delicate. Tough to attain, hard to maintain, and its delicate calm nature make the Saiyans shun it despite its power.
SSG was used constantly in the manga and in the anime came back in the ToP and the Broly movie.
I think something that people are often afraid to admit to regarding Super is how it treats Power vs technique.
Toyotaro tries really hard to emphasize that power is not the only factor in combat. Going so far as to highlight how Roshi could predict Jiren's attacks.
Because Jiren is ungodly powerful but functionally fights like a drunk swinging a bar stool. Roshi had barely a fraction of that power but had 5+ centuries of experience to draw upon.
This is how combat was approached back in Dragonball. Where weaker fighters often won via clever tactics or by surprising other fighters with new techniques.
I feel like Toyotaro has a decent grasp of what fans want from Dragon Ball, I'd just really like to know how much freedom he actually gets with the story.
Sadly, the execution of this idea doesn't work at all. It may even cause more trouble than good.
I would have liked it if all powerlevels were equalized for the tournament, this would have made sense.
Ultra Instinct should have been a one-time special event used for the final arc of Super and then never used again afterwards because the longer it stays around, the writers will have to keep finding ways around it since UI would be a get out of jail card for Goku if he ever truly mastered it and any tension in future fights would feel hollow with the audience knowing he has that kind of power on him.
Though with how badly the OG characters were written in this series along with the absurd power creep also doesn’t do Super any favors, (ROF, TOP, Broly Movie and the Gas Arc) especially the former because so many characters were done dirty in DBS.
Also too add to your point with the closet thing Goku has to a character arc being his want to be the greatest fighter in all of every reality at this point he really shouldn't have access to divine state of fighting mastery untill the end
Goku will never master ui I mean even grand hasn't mastered he has just better control than everyone
@@God_Enjoyer Thats exactly why Goku will master UI.
@@r.e.z9428 do we even know what is mastered UI?? Did characters even mentioned UI being ever mastered??
@@God_Enjoyer Well considering hes the only mortal apparently in any universe to achieve it without training or being told about it, I’m sure he will master it.
My largest complaint is the lack of story with universe 6 saiyans. Why was their first introduction to super saiyan with universe 7. If they had at least implied that at least some of the saiyans had figured it out in some epic conflict against a threat similar to the Frieza fight then I would be okay but they really decided that Vegeta shouting at cabba and a tingling sensation in their backs was a great explanation for them catching up.
I'd have loved hints at an epic saga of battles and adventure in the U6 Saiyans past, giving valid reason to why they are as strong as they are or better yet give a spin off series set in Universe 6 with either Cabba or Caulifla at the helm that actually shows their story on the run up to the U6 v U7 arc in DBS, naturally introducing the other character like Frost and Hit
You don't understand, they're a peaceful race. Why would you want the same repeat backstory that they were slaves?
Also I feel like this comes from a lack of understanding on how Super Saiyan works on your part. How they "caught up" is that they didn't 🙃 They already had the base power necessary to transform into a Super Saiyan, they just didn't know how. That's entirely different from the Universe 7 Saiyans where we watched them grow. We were with them through the journey, from them slowly becoming strong enough to access these forms. The Universe 6 Saiyans were already at the end game, we were not along for the journey. Also Caulifla is a prodigy like Goku, why shouldn't she be able to replicate his feats of instantly knowing how to do something after seeing it?
So I think this is a bit unreasonable.
@@ParadiseDB7 Yeah! I think one thing people forget is that the hardest thing to overcoming a problem or a limit is usually knowing it's even possible in the first place. Once you've seen it can be done, it makes it much easier.
@@ParadiseDB7 Regardless of whatever plot contrivances they make up to excuse their poor writing, it will forever be inherently a bad idea to reduce a legendary powerup (the most iconic in anime) to a back tingle. They did not have the time to sufficiently develop the universe 6 saiyans, as they had like an episode or two with caulifla and kale and the moments of cabba in the universe 6 tournament, so the concept was heavily rushed and very underwhelming. Before somebody retorts with "oh but goten and trunks just went super saiyan with no effort" I should say that I think that is just as lazy and unfortunate.
@@probablyseth3565 your lack of understanding to what the back tingle is referencing is ridiculous. The back tingle is nothing more than Cabba describing what it feels like when he transformed, that's no different than even Goku teaching Gohan how it feels to transform just in different words.
Also you're putting the blame on the wrong person. You babble on about back tingle, but yet somehow the Super Saiyan bargain sale is perfectly a-okay with you. Yup let's just completely ignore that because the Saiyan prodigy ruined the transformation yup.
Did you even read literally anything I said before replying to me?
@@ParadiseDB7 And it's clear to me that you didn't understand a single thing that I said and as such nothing I will say in defence of my sentiment will be acknowledged by you so I won't even bother trying to explain myself
I agree, I loved seeing the brief glimpses of the different universes in the TOP and would love to have seen more. I love a lot of the ideas behind Dragon Ball Kakumei and am generally surprised that DBS didn't go all out with Spin offs with more focus on the different universes (think of the MERCHANDISING!). Kakumei comes close to scratching the itch of seeing more of the different universes, but it also has the issue a lot of fan fiction has which is it takes itself a tad too seriously and has a very different tone from DBZ/DBS (most obvious with what feels like a grudge against the U6 saiyans with Vegeta literally dominating over them hehe). If there were a training arc between Vegeta and the U6 saiyans I would imagine Kabba and Vegeta taking a more collaborative approach given how Kabba not only very quickly grasped SS but also taught it in a way that evidently worked for the U6 saiyans.... yes i'm sayying I wanna see them going all out with the goofy explanations for saiyan power ups, SS1? Tickly back. SS2? Scratchy ear. SSGSS? Twitching the Left butt cheek etc
I really loved SsjR even though it was just pink Super Saiyan hair but man it looked great on Goku Black. Super Saiyan God was a cool form, i really loved the firey aura the form gave off. Ultra Ego I really liked how menacing Vegeta looked when he tapped into that form and the purple flames? To me thats just a chef's kiss. Black Freeza I liked as well but I do wish they made it an actual transformation similar to Cooler instead of a simple color swap, Golden Freeza I can forgive because Freeza made the color of the form gold for the sake of mocking the golden hair of a Super Saiyan. Orange Piccolo was nice and all, the dude looked like an absolute gigachad. But..Beast Gohan..I'm gonna be honest, I'm not too big on that form. The design to me is meh at best but the way it was demonstrated came from absolutely nowhere which is why I hope the manga at least covers that part up as much as a waste of time its going through at the moment
I sorta groaned a little when I heard Gohan was getting a new form. One of my favorite forms in the whole series is Gohan's mystic form because it is a testament to his individuality and an expression of the power we knew was hidden in him for so long. I only ever wanted Gohan to improve upon himself in that state, instead of some flashy new Super Saiyan form.
@@Ethan-wr2os Or the clear and obvious ripoff of SSJ2 Gohan during the Cell Games. And vs Cell (Max) to boot. I still really enjoyed that movie, like a lot, but Gohan in the final act just brought it down for me. Orange Piccolo, though, I thought that was great.
@@kefkamadman me too, in general the movie was awesome for me and actually laugh-out-loud funny in some places. But the Gohan moment was that one drawback for me. Still super stoked that we basically had a Piccolo movie, I was missing the green homie
I still stand by the Spirit bomb and SSJ God are two different mentalities. One is a technique that is active in gathering power and takes time to learn and manipulate. The other is passive and takes no effort on the part of the recipient. It’s the measure of goku’s earnest nature. He didn’t train to use SSJ and it’s so far beyond him he “couldn’t reach it on his own” the spirit bomb power always got surpassed by Goku and he had to train to gather the energy. So no I do not believe that a comparison of the two is fair
Not just that, there is a huuuuuuuge difference between borrowing energy for an attack vs taking energy for a power up that Goku eventually absorbed and permanently kept.
Instead of introducing SSJ Blue (which is basically just a recoloring of the normal SSJ) they should show Goku and Vegeta's journey to learning how to use SSJ God by themselves.
We already got that with blue blue is best written form ngl
@@God_Enjoyer honestly it’s not. All they did was infuse SsJ with God ki. It replaced SSJ God immediately in Res.F ,which is ridiculous because we were just introduced to SsJ God and now we get rid of it in the anime. It felt like SSJ blue happened too quickly only for Frieza to get a Golden form and reach near their level. Honestly Blue isn’t that big of a deal, and isn’t all that cool, but that’s just my opinion.
@@God_Enjoyer Hell No. Blue design was just as lazy as it’s writing. It came out of nowhere and pretty much acted like how everyone treated the OG Super Sayian but Blue
What blue wanted to be is what ultra instinct and ultra ego are, evolutions of Goku and Vegeta strengths from god and saiyan might alongside their ideals. Goku as a martial artist saiyan raised on earth, Vegeta the prideful warrior.
This. Goku going god all and his own without needing the ritual anymore and Vegeta going god for the first time on screen could have both been sufficiently dramatic moments for the movie... but MARKETING demands new transformations so they can make even more toys and other collectible merchandise.
Pretty much the same reason UI sign was inadequate, and we also had the much more overtly different form of mastered UI forced out as well.
Your Videos are always so critical and informative Masako!
I don't always agree with Masako on everything but he absolutely feels like he genuinely likes super and Dragonball as a whole. I feel like a lot of Dragonball "fans" have so many bizarre complaints about power scaling or bad writing in super that have been there at least since the start of Z that I genuinely don't know how they ever liked Dragonball to begin with.
@@Kobolds_in_a_trenchcoat Because people try to make a science out of the numbers pertaining to the characters and I blame power levels for this lol. Since their introduction people argue about power scaling too much. But the series itself began to show that numbers meant almost nothing and that using scouters are not an indication of a fighter's true abilities, and I think people need to take that approach more. Trying to apply logic and numbers to a series like this only causes people to fight over something that doesn't matter. People should just be enjoying the series instead of fighting over power scaling. It's so silly and the points people make to back up their power claims sound like head-canon, for the most part.
@@Ethan-wr2os totally agree with you. But I think people also just want to make sense of some of the more ridiculous scenes. For example how kefla and co. could be any challenge when they have no fighting experience at all.
@@lightborn9071 that I can agree with tbh because that comes more into their actual fighting ability. I did however like the scene where Goku is fighting them both at Super Saiyan while he was in his base form, showing experience and martial prowess can overcome sheer power. I'm hoping Dragon Ball keeps martial arts philosophy as an important theme and I thought Ultra Instinct was good for that. The idea behind it is the kind of stuff Bruce Lee was talking about
There needs to be a hard power cap that forces Goku and Co to start fighting more intelligently and use special techniques to eliminate the power creep.
The power suppressor in fighterz comes to mind.
Wrong show for that bro.
No mention of Trunks' time-line being erased? That was by far my most hated moment.
This got me thinking of a Daily mission from Genshin Impact, honestly. A writer and editor are arguing about the writer failing to meet the deadline, and you following along with the writer to make sure they're getting *inspiration* and not goofing off (so the writer can have a witness that he IS working). It plays out one of several different ways, but the editor's argument kind of stands.... The guy keeps coming up with new powers out of nowhere, and has to keep notes just so HE can remember all of it. Are the *readers* supposed to be keeping notes, too? He WANTS to trust his writer, but as an editor he's seen a lot of series make the same mistakes. On the opposite ending, the writer points out all of the other novels the company is selling that did exactly what the editor wanted and *HOW* they failed, and why he keeps copies of those books around to remind himself how not to screw up his own stuff. The two eventually reach a middle ground.. temporarily.
Doing that quest made me seriously look at Dragon Ball (and most shonen series in *general*) and kind of feel that there's ways to make it work... and ways it doesn't. I think Toriyama's got an okay handle on some of it (Toyotaro, maybe not so much as the Ultra Instinct bullet point showed), but that doesn't mean it's *clean.* And once you screw up power creep enough times (Saiyan saga, Namek, Buu, Tournament of Power) it can just start to feel *exhausting* or like the power levels don't really matter. And that sucks, because it makes it harder to get invested. Hopefully they can work it out, because Super has done some genuinely cool things.
Good post
I understand most of these criticism, even if I don't agree with all of them. Two, in particular stand out to me. First, the potara thing wasn't a retcon, technically, it still makes the two different fusion a bit pointless. I mean the potara method is faster, I guess... That's a difference. It still wasn't a good decision. Second, Gohan Beast is a bad transformation (esthetically) and need a proper justification. With that said, Gohan using the Makankosappo (spelling?) was just perfect.
I think keeping Goku's personality in UI makes sense to the form, this brings him closer to Whis' UI, but his way to fight should be calm and automatic
3:05 It isn't banned in Argentina anymore for almost a year now... But it didn't return to Cartoon Network but another Warner Bros channel. I suppose the agreement was: "just don't show it on the kids channel, it's a bad influence." So now is the parents problem if their kid changes the channel. Mind you, i don't know if the kept "that episode".
Some of these are somewhat reasonable, some of them are nitpicky, but man, the power creep comment was 100% on point, and the cerelean dragon balls were the most plot-devicey thing we've seen, there was no adventure or arc in retrieving them.
Most of these are not the worst decisions in super, there's far.. far worse ones than most of these (except the power creep and Cerelean dragon balls)
Article: Goku borrowing power is out of character.
Actual Goku: Oh hey King Kai. Quick question. Did I learn the Kaioken on my own?
Completely agree on "Beast", it just looks so stupid and so lazy, let's just take SSJ2, extend it's hair to comical lengths (That one DBZ Parody from Kids Next Door anyone?), and give it the "Vampire" color scheme of silver hair and red eyes, TOTALLY works....
And even that is setting aside my childish bias against it and MUI both, lol....
I'm just going to put this here cuz it's the latest video. I think it'd be cool to see if a what if Goku started a dojo and passed down the turtle hermit way to apprentices. I think it would be a nice opportunity to either introduce new human characters or show human characters that we already know earlier ( like showing Sharpener, Videl, and maybe erasa learning under Goku early on in the story). I think it would be a nice opportunity to test out the limits of humans again, since they don't get too much spot light. Also leading a dojo sounds like a better job than being a farmer for Goku lol
Now that you mention it, I'm actually surprised it took them so long to have someone open a dojo and it was Tien late in Super lol.
@@rb98769 Exactly!
The old DBOnline lore had that. Except it was Krillin and Tien who did if.
We _did_ get Tien's Neo Crane School, but Krillin is a police officer.
What pisses me off is that they gave Frieza yet another transformation, which means Goku will have to unlock another transformation beyond Ultra Instinct, rinse, repeat, etc. Like come on. Enough already.
Hot Take: Ultra Instinct is just Super Saiyan White
I thought that was Gohan Beast hah.
Not at all, that'd be an accurate description of Gohan Beast but Ultra Instinct has way more to it.
@@documentcamera8807 Not really. It was special at first but now it's just super saiyan white. And Ultra Ego is super saiyan purple ofc
@@MasakoX Nah, Its Gohan Blanco
@@thedead073 That assessment just ignores the entire concepts behind the forms including the training Goku and Vegeta did to obtain and develop them. They aren't just simple power boosts.
My take is that super has a lot of really good ideas but have almost never stuck the landing on any of them.
Tornament of power, great idea, terrible execution. it was less of a Tournament and more of a free-for-all slug fest. A lot of the New Character designs felt samey. And it all came down to, "everyone but the strongest 4 are just filler."
Ultra instinct, awesome in concept but in practice just became another transformation. I grew up with OG dragonball so anytime they prioritize technique over raw power I get excited. When Whis told Goku the exact same lesson that both Roshi and Mr Popo taught him many years ago, i thought Goku would actually start cooling his head and focus less on the greatest power up. Then UI shows up and they'e talking about how it's the ultimate technique. The peak of effieciency and skill. but then Goku goes on about how consumes too much energy and it's treated as another transformation from then on. Even the Design of it is lack luster. When it first showed up in the Anime it was just a silver silhouette and I thought that was RAW AS HELL. Then Goku "masters" it and it become Goku but silver hair.
Goku Black? also a really cool idea but became convoluted and honestly boring. Zamastu was on Okay villain but he felt completely out of place in an arc about a mysterious evil Goku. The ending of that arc is by far the worst ending to an anime arc i've ever seen.
Granola was another arc that felt interesting in concept but failed in execution but I chalk that up to where in the timeline it was. Granola felt like it was A DBZ scale arc but because Goku and Vegeta were at god levels at that point, the story quickly spiraled out of control. Should've been a movie or Omake.
Moro was also really cool but it starting diving into a lot of the same flaws that the Majin Buu arc had where the villain kept spontaniously transforming, gaining new powers, devolving, reevolving, and Dividing everytime the heroes got the upper hand just to keep extending the fight. This is what happens when your arc is almost exclusively fighting one guy.
Super Super Hero was also neat in concept but was practically just BioBroly, mecha cooler, and cyborg frieza again. An old powerful foe rebuild bigger and stronger than before. Piccolo and Pan were great but they seriously need to stop naming transformations after colors.
The only Super stories I didn't have any problems with were The Universe 7 vs 6 arc and the Broly Movie.
Well lets all remember every idea is going to be better than "lets turn goku back into a kid!"
Personally disagree, GT was a hard upgrade over Super in nearly every way.
Y'see, I have never understood the reasoning why people hated this so much. I really have no strong feeling on it one way or the other, but no one has ever explained what it is exactly they don't like about that particular decision... especially since the Goku in Super acts like a kid. Sorry, couldn't help it.
Honestly I really liked when Goku turned into a kid, thought it was a good idea and handled decently
The only thing I didn’t like was how long it dragged the journey of reverting Goku back to normal age. Half the time it felt like filler
I’m shocked they didn’t mention how the Goku Black Saga ended.
If Beast Gohan was explained as Gohan using the Wrathful form which mutated because of Gohan's potential being unleashed than maybe I could like it but since it isn't than I hate it
Beast is just Ultimate Gohan 2. its unrelated to his saiyan nature or powers and thats the best part.
Agree to disagree
@@furiousgamerxz5141 i mean you can disagree that its the best part but the rest is just facts. Beast is just Mystic 2 and not related to super saiyan or saiyan forms/powers at all.
I'm more bothered by the fact that in spite of Super giving us 3 "tournaments" (if you count the Zeno Expo as one) none of them actually felt like a proper Dragon Ball tournament.
0:01 Akira Toriyama created Battle of Gods, Resurrection F and Dragon Ball Super because he was *absolutely livid* at the existence of Dragon Ball Evolution that made a mockery of his creation.
I love that he was inspired, but we should've had a less atrocious thing to do that.
Making SS Blue. God having a time limit makes it interesting in fights. Will they win before it runs out? Does Goku want to save it for later or dive in full blast? Great drama and story telling opportunities
At a surface level, it had decent points ultimately what’s wrong with DBS is the heavy, obvious marketing executive influences.
Because it’s the only logical explanation for a lot of potholes and lazy design work due to not truly needing them, when your primary objective is pushing merchandise in the cheapest way possible.
I still feel like the reason Krilin and Master Roshi could do stuff there was not because of their power, but their skills and experience.
Letting them shine a bit, predicting the moves of less refined and/or less experienced opponents.
Here is an Idea what they could use with Ultra instinct since it is still considered Ki of the gods right and Goku or Vegeta clearly struggles to blend the two with there saiyan Ki like super saiyan blue they should just focus on that concept in general. The reason why Goku can hold the form long because well he is only mortal.
I gotta agree with every point here.
But especially so the number 8, 6, 5 and 2.
Which are the most blatant examples of bad writing.
I see beast as an extension to potential unleashed and ssj mix and i like when piccolo told gohan to finish it continuing the streak that when gohan is overwhelming an opponent he gets cocky
3:15 for the Potara Fusion one I agree that the drawback did get retconned. But realistically it wasn't retconned in the Goku Black Saga, but rather in the Buu Saga.
In Buu, it's just guessed "maybe it was Buu's magic that undid the fusion". There was never an explanation of why non Kai's unfused. The whole point of that fusion was that it is permanent, yes. But that rule is never followed for mortals anyway in DBZ.
Super then gives an explanation that can apply to the change that was made in the Buu saga already.
I'd go one step beyond the Universes feeling dry and say the ToP was a fumble in terms of showing the interesting things other universes can do. They were either reduced to gimmicks, bad character designs and just felt very powerless compared to the power level we're accostumed to. A lot of the fights felt meaningless(like Tien's and Krillin's), and some personal storytelling and connections(like Universe 9) were completely tossed aside.
It would be better to focus on three or four universes than say the most powerful beings of other universes are quick character drafts that can barely handle a SSJ
The sad part is when people take things like the CBR list as fact instead of the opinions they are.
It's always important to think past the article and view what works and what doesn't. Some points were valid, some were quite harsh and others were not fair at all.
Seeing you throw the Goku voice from abridged in there is all I've ever wanted...ever...
The worst decision is Trunks going back to a Future where there was already a Future Trunks.
I've never really understood the hate Super received, but I do think it's good to have videos like these because it's hard for someone who likes Super to be critical of it when others might take that criticism and blow it out of proportion. Looking at that list feels like a happy medium. I'll always defend Roshi though, love him coming back
Definitely agree that Super gets a lot of hate I don't understand either. Honestly, I think 99% of the criticism it gets is at least as applicable to Z.
@@Kobolds_in_a_trenchcoat Bad writing? Check. bad animation? Check lol. Z had both of these things in places. I think it's because there was such a huge expectation for a new Dragon Ball show and people were let down by a rocky start to the series. But I thoroughly enjoyed it and felt excited for the whole Dragon Ball series again as the show got better and better.
Super doesn't hold a candle to Z, Z is good Super anime is meh
@@Kobolds_in_a_trenchcoat Super's problem is that it takes the weaker parts of Z and runs them into the ground.
I actually liked Roshi coming back, but they could have done a much better job with him
The power creep is another reason why a villian like MORO is cool.
You couldn't just go full power on him, cause he would use it against you and drain you. Going in slow? He would drain you.
It took litterly a technique that is ment to weaken a person's use of power to defeat him.
THATS RIGHT PEOPLE! I think techniques should be focussed on, not the power creep.
At this point in time the trope of more power ain't gonna fix it. Heck even Cell Max's defeat what was it? Was it a giant blast of energy that vaporizes him?
NO! It was combined effort, where a PRECISE technique (Special Beam Cannon). would drill into a VITAL PART of CELL MAX to force him to SELF DESTRUCT!
This is what I think DBS should focus on in the future and the key to defeating Black Freeza.
Freeza goes to goku: "You can train all you like but I will stay ahead, you will never beat me,"
And goku then out techniques the stronger freeza with the help of Ultra instinct.
It's why these days the best Kamehameha is the one vs Kefla.
It outdid the Father/Son Kamehameha acording to some people, cause it was using the Technique in a bold new way... to win.
No instant transmission to big blast, no power it up suddenly by help or such, no combined beam.. just... charging one up and using it to glide over the enemies own POWERFULL BEAM to then shoot it in their face OFF GUARD!
And trust me.. this is what DBS has been improving with time. It's not POWER that wins the day most of the time, it's Techniques and Strategy. Using your tools correctly and more.
Goku black arc/fused Zamasu: "Spirit Sword cutting him in half"
Ressurection F: ...Off guard Kamehameha.
Battle of Gods: ...Well this one doesnt count.
Tournament of Power: Most of the KO's are by techniques then POWER STRUGGLES or Strategies. Heck the final win was Goku and Freeza using all their power to SHOVE JIREN OFF together!
No epic beam struggle, no giant blast, no special techinque.. JUST SHOVING!
I had a really fun time watching super week by week when it was coming out especially since I had just finished everything else in the series at the time. It was really cool watching that for the first time when I was 16. Now I am older and I miss when I enjoyed super, it’s really hard for me to like it these days, I look back at all it could have been and just how dumb a lot of these decisions are. Yeah super did SOME cool things like the goku black arc had it’s moments (not gonna list off my complaints lol) but overall there were lots of things I would have liked to be different, at least I can still enjoy dragon ball and Z, and some parts of gt, and some of super I guess.
Ultra Instinct was different from the other transformations in that it wasn't just a power up that made him move faster or hit harder. It was a state of mind that allowed him to compete with Jiren... is what I thought it was during the half time show but they threw that away at the end and gave him white hair and turned it into another generic transformation with the difference being he can't do it at will.
I still feel like Freeza's return in the ToP would've worked better if Goku had played him. I swear they were setting that up and then Whis got involved and screwed up the plan.
Freeza specifically says "The earth dragonballs are enough to bring me back to life" and Goku agrees to that. Goku knows the limits of the earth's dragonballs but Freeza doesn't. Goku could have kept his promise to "make the wish" to bring Freeza back to life and Shenron would've rejected it. Then Goku can tell him "Whoops. Well, I tried!". Probably while having the whole thing broadcast to Freeza in hell. And it would've been hilarious.
When it comes to Gogeta, I don't think he's become Vegetto. He's definitely less stoic as he was in Fusion Reborn, but he also did take the fight against Broly much more seriously than Vegetto does in his fights. He transformed to match Broly quickly rather than doing a slow buildup/test of ability and throughout the fight he NEVER stopped attacking to try to humilate Broly.
Yeah I thought "Beast Gohan" was fan art someone made until I saw it was in dragon ball.
The most important things about these articles to me, is that we either develop our opinions upon reading them, or have our own opinion while reading them.
I remember especially when you criticized Goku getting his memories back from hearing Bardocks voice, I disagreed quite a lot.
So my take away is, this is a great exercise in training yourself to gain/having your own opinion, and not mindlessly agreeing with a stranger on either the internet, or the news outlet
I honestly give the spirit bomb a pass; you still have to learn/ hone the technique of the spirit bomb, that attack or move even leaves you vulnerable; had the spirit bomb been an easy W, an easy clap then yes I would say it's out of character for Goku but the fact you have to put actual effort forward to learning it is another.
Honestly, I felt like Super Saiyan God was kind of a waste of a form and wasn't really explored as much as it maybe should have been. It got replaced by Blue almost immediately, and while the reasoning is sound of Blue basically being Super Saiyan but in God form it just turns Super Saiyan God into a stepping stone rather than this centuries old legendary power so mysterious even Vegeta, the resident Saiyan expert had no idea about and the God of Destruction Beerus waited specifically to fight against.
Yeah Ultra instinct broke the internet.
Also it's more than just a transformation and form, people forget that.
The whole Gogeta is fanservice thing is a little right when you think about the idea that Goku and Vegeta still had Evolution and Kaio-Ken x20 up their sleeves. (If you take the movie as Anime Only since in the manga they show us a panel of the Broly movie and its drastically different than the movie) (Broly is transformed inyo a super saiyan, the ice isn't broken, and both Goku and Vegeta are using Mastered Blue against him.)
The powercreep was so bad I remember it clear as day. After Goku vs Superman 2 everyone lost their minds. “What?! That’s nonsense! Superman, a veritable god capable of universal feats, couldn’t possibly walk through a SSJB full power kamehameha!”
A short while later an untrained girl with a tingly back walked through a SSJB full power kamehameha and no one cared.
I like the Beyond Dragonball Super stuff the current one being made has made MUI really good
1:06 I think absorbing God was a mistake. Mostly because it absolutely obliterates DBS powerscaling. Because of this, base cabba can apparently solo the entirety of Z. It is the main reason for all these headaches imo
Anyone else feel like this video's ending was kinda abrupt? Great video though but like sora felt like it was missing you wrapping up your thoughts after the last entry.
a lot of his videos are like this for the past few months or so. i miss when every video had him saying goodbye instead of just abruptly ending.
I would have had Goku forgetting the talisman here but that’s just me. Though I think Goku being written as far more childish and dumb is the bigger issue.
Unfortunately, show schedules in Japan be damming.
This might be because my only engagement with DBZ has really been through the Abridged series (I did try the show before, I really did, but it just wasn't for me) but, honestly, I didn't understand the hype surrounding Ultra Instinct. When it first happened, my internet feed was losing its mind over how "radically different" the form looked and all I had to say was, "Wait, are you kidding me? That's literally just Goku: he just kinda glows a bit now." Then there was an upgrade to it and, again, people began freaking out, and all I could say was, "Still Goku. His hair's just white now." Like, I don't know, at least the big SS3 one looked visibly different. Silly, maybe, but different. I understand the hype for achieving a new level of mastery, fair enough, that makes sense, but the way people talked about the actual character design honestly just confused me. Like, what was the hype for?
Man a way to get another universe involved easily would be to have a g.o.d come to ask for U7’s help because they don’t want to ask another g.o.d directly.
Seriously, the Moro arc especially could have been set in another universes, especially after the Tournament of Power went and claimed there weren't supposed to be any strong fighters in U7 outside of those on Earth.
@@EmeralBookwise facts bro and Kai’s use magic Moro uses magic could’ve made an easy way to have Moro use a technique like KaiKai to move universes
These aren't even the worst writing decisions .
Super has a lot bigger problems...
the writing in my opinion is the worst
3:25 In the manga during the buu saga, goku said the potara time limit ran out.
6:10 HUGE Disagree on this one. Ultra Instinct is the ONLY powerup in the Super Anime/Manga that is given the care and dedication that the biggest powerups in Z got (Super Saiyan Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan).
Whis constantly lectured Goku about thinking too much when he fights and how he needs to "move without thinking". It goes beyond "this new transformation just gives them more power" like Super Saiyan Blue for example. And it also harkens back to the core fundamentals of Martial Arts, which the franchise has been getting away from for a long time.
one of the worst writing decisions of Super has been that they haven't repurposed Super Saiyan 4 by retconning it to be the great ape form with God Ki like how super saiyan blue is just plain old super saiyan but with God Ki.
I know that, even in the series they joked about not thinking of yamcha but come on yamcha can hold his own. He certainly would’ve been a better choice than master Roshi.
Given that Yamcha uses his abilities for agility as seen in episode 69 of the Super anime, he could have some wins against lower-powered people from other universes given that technique did enough for Master Roshi.
8:27 woah there Masako, going strong with the Gogeta slander, aren't we?
I love Gogeta, he's my preferred fusion...but the base purpose for him in the movie was to act as the big finisher. I'd want to see him again and always hanker for the Fusion Reborn iteration.
@@MasakoX another Gogeta enjoyer I see. In all seriousness, that's how I feel as well. DBS Gogeta was cool but I sort of wish we got the stoic Gogeta from Fusion Reborn. This new one, as you said in the video, resembles Vegito in personality which is kind of a bummer. He's still really cool though.
i feel like frieza replacing majin buu in TOP was genius! It was a plot twist nobody expected to the point they even changed the opening. Personally I think frieza did a great job and was more interesting than buu
Herrs what i think. I feel like after the fight, instead of keeping all of the god ki, a small portion sgould have been left in there. Like having soke gas in your csr but you lost your keys. So instead of Goku having access to Super Saiyan God, he'd have the potential to access it. Leading to Super Saiyan God to being developed over time, and making it feel more impactful. Same goes for blue. If they paced it better the tournament wouldnt have felt as ridiculous imo. You litterally have Goku a man able to go to to toe with gods getting backed into a corner by 2 people that got a tingly feeling. Granted they fused but its like all of his years of hard work, trauma, and sacrafice was for nothing. If they paced the god forms better, i feel like the tourney wouldve had a better reception.
6:19 agree, though that's also what super saiyan god and blue are as well, for some reason ultra instict feels even worst. Is true that the original super saiyan Transformations were also like that, but they don't feel like it, they had something behaind them, it feels like they came from somewere.
10:17 agree.
I actually agree whit most of this.
I dunno. When it comes to god ki and the kamehameha I feel there would be a scale of expectation. For example I could learn how to ride a bike after just 1 explanation. Sure. Can I fly a 747 jet after just 1 explaination? No of course not. And Goku learning how to use god ki so fast only diminishes what it means to be a god.
bro, the entire series is horribly written.
Yeah
DBS in its entirety was one big bad writing decision.
If you ask me, the #1 worst thing they did was add the other universes. Sure, it allows us to see alternate-universe Saiyans, but the fact that basically all of Universe 7's ToP fighters were from Earth kinda sums it all up - Dragonball barely explored Universe 7 and treated it like Earth with just a handful of other planets that were basically useless.
But, again, Dragonball Super wasn't made with good writing in mind. They wanted a basic plot so Goku and Vegeta would keep getting new forms so new merchandise could be made and sold.
where does one read dragonball kakumei? ive looked but it feels like I'm not searching right
Maybe a hot take but making the dragon ball super manga was the worst thing they could of done because they rewrote so many cool character moments in the tournament of power from the anime and for whatever reason keeps shitting on Krillin.
How is there no mention of Future Trunks and Goku Black. That whole arc had potential until the ending pooped itself for no reason. Also Trunks X Mai is just creepy. Why?! Bulma has to know that's the same lady from when she was a teenager, right?
Instead of having future, Zeno destroy trunks his timeline and have him go to a back up timeline with there’s already another version of him. There have the supreme Kai of time fix things.
I think the Master Roshi thing is that he may not be as strong as the other fighters, but he's wiser and has a higher battle intellect than the others. Kind of like how Krillin and Piccolo usually comes up with the plans during battles while we wait for Goku and Vegeta to show up.
I’d honestly argue against Gogeta and Vegito being more or less the same. The the Broly movie, Gogeta actually possessed more Goku’s silly charm whilst containing some of Vegeta’s snarky attitude (in a more playful way to ally’s).
Vegito contains most of Vegeta, that being his ego, which makes Vegito more snarky in battle. Like, all the time. He plays around and humiliates his opponents intentionally due to that, while Gogeta, who possesses more of Goku, wastes no time and chooses to get things done then and there.
I think that canon Gogeta still retains his cool nature, just not in the exact same way. I love Vegito and Gogeta both since they have their own great and lovable personalities, but you can’t lie about who’s more efficient in a fight.
Actually, Z Vegito had a strategic reason for toying with Super Buu, and Vegito himself even reveals this in the manga. Vegito was messing with Super Buu on purpose to get him so desperate that he’d absorb Vegito, who would use an energy barrier to avoid adding to Buu’s power and then free everyone from the inside. Unfortunately this gets ignored and everyone (including the writers of Super) just assumed it was his personality, and not a tactical ploy.
How wasn’t the tingling in the back not number 1!????
The first 3 seconds of this video are perfect. I might make it my ringtone.
My one issue with Goku absorbing the SSJ God power is that it turned the form irrelevant. I'll always be salty about SSJ Blue becoming the "mascot" of Super when God is superior in literally every way.
Ultra Instinct didn't come out of nowhere. The entire series hinted at it from the first time Goku and Vegeta fought with Beerus. If you were paying attention you wouldn't have been blindsided by it.
I will say, though, that Goku mastering it so quickly was a bad idea. IMO Goku should have only momentarily accessed Ultra Instinct Sign in the Moro Arc and that it went from that to True Ultra Instinct. Mastered Ultra Instinct being fully accessible should be at the end of the series.
Exactly!
But goku never mastered the technique
@@God_Enjoyer Well, mastered enough that he could access it at will even if momentarily.
11:15. That kinda just sums up the Dragon Ball franchise at this point. We’ve seen it all before. There are around 6 people that can break universes at this point. UNIVERSES. How do you have stakes? How do you have contests? Who could possibly be a threat? How do you come up with new powers when the powers are already godly?
Answer is you can’t. Dragon Ball has gone through the whole Stakes Creep process. From world, to space, to universe, to multiverse, to spirit world. There’s nowhere to go from here. They’ve reached the ceiling. The only thing the writers can do is keep throwing them back into that ceiling, or drop them down the ladder a bit by repeating previously achieved feats.
But, really, Dragon Ball needs to end. Or, at least, it needs to stop focusing in the same group if it wants to stay relevant. It’s why people love Masako’s What If series, especially Raditz’s. Following Ranch is great. It’s a fresh perspective that lives alongside the insanely powerful people. That’s what Dragon Ball needs to do, and seems to be doing with that new Raditz Lives manga.