Thank you all so much for watching but mostly for all the thoughtful comments! I do want to add that what I read were only two pages of the entire book. This part was just one perspective of one character. The book is so much more so if you’re interested and have the time of course I encourage you to read the entire book. Again thank you for watching ❤
I haven’t wanted children since my first period. I knew pregnancy was never for me because I do not want to be pregnant. I don’t want to “know my child.” I know my own child, she lives inside of me and I nurture her daily. I don’t need to create another life to satisfy my own.
more likely its that you are still a child who hasnt matured at all try growing up a little and youll realize being a mother isnt as selfish as youve been lead to believe
@@Givebackthescarf lmao get over yourself I didn't say she had to have children I didn't say god told us to have children and I'm not implying that every mother is happy to be one people can do what they want pls go touch some grass ;)
@@Givebackthescarf seeing as think and I quote "we are more alone than we like to consider" I think the problem is you just don't have any friends and you should try talking to someone irl instead of crying on the Internet
I saw my mom rolling cigarettes coming home from school. She was raising four kids on her own while finishing her PH.D. Dad walked out and Mom refused to let him come back because of his alcoholism. That image of seeing my mom rolling cigarettes stressed out never left me. And I never wanted to go through what she went through. It really questioned why I would want to have a child. Cute, curiosity, have a family of my own, a mini-me, etc. I am 5 years into my relationship with my fiancée and we are both on the fence. Inflation makes everything more expensive, salaries are not rising, we work harder to have less, and then be burdened with all the costs of raising a child... the image of my mom pops into my mind. People tell me I want an easy life or that I am lazy or selfish or something else meant to guilt trip me. Maybe they are right. Or maybe I am just to in love with the idea of being free. Interesting book. I'll give it a read.
As a wife and mother, I would tell you to seriously consider all the things that could go wrong. For example: You could have a child with a disability autism, ocd, adhd, schizophrenia or a physical illness (there is a climbing toll of mothers in every age group facing this and we don’t yet know what is causing such an increase). Having a child could drive a wedge between you and your partner (couples are most at risk of separation after they have a child) , your partner could pass away, your child could face a series of difficulties in life that make them depressed or anxious, there is no guarantee that your child will be successful, they could be dependent on you for much longer than 18 years, etc etc
It is the fault of society for not supporting mothers. I find it hilarious when men complain about low birth rates, so oblivious to women’s actual needs. Most women want to have kids, it’s our evolutionary drive. It need to be valued monetarily by society.
I've been antinatalist my whole life and didn't know it until I was 27. Those reasons she gives in the book about the selfish reasons people have children are spot on. No one ever has a child for the sake of the child itself.
It’s not true at all that people don’t have children for no reason at all. Off the top of my head: lust and /or loving the person you conceive the child with. Blind lust can make people do strange things, like risk having children, because the power of it is so strong. This is usually, if not always, against their better judgement. Whole religions are made to punish people usually women who have children out of wedlock, sometimes even today women can get the death penalty for this if she is married to someone else. Yes of course people shouldn’t be having children under these circumstances but my argument is not about that. I am showing you that people not only have children for the sake of it or with nothing to gain, but they also conceive and have children with someone even knowing they might lose everything in doing so. In other words the direct opposite to what you said. In fact I’m glad I replied to this comment as it has cemented in my mind that antinatalists are just living in a different world on a parallel universe , where people only go about doing things for selfish reasons. That’s fine for you and that’s probably why the paths of people who have children for reasons you can’t understand never cross yours, and visa versa, except maybe randomly on the internet from time to time
"children have a right not to be born"?? I mean, I also think it's cruel to bring a child into this world knowing that they will suffer instead of being loved. I also think that many people become parents who are not up to the task - some because they continue to make bad choices, and some because they really don't have the means. Still... Once a person has the gift of life, they must act. You must act. (And don't take that last paragraph the wrong way. I believe a woman's right to choose up to the viability point of a fetus is more important than the life of said fetus)
Oh BOY I have had this conversation with many and found myself staring at dumbfounded and confounded faces. Wanting a baby is indeed the most selfish human act. SO glad to see someone else observe this.
I've been thinking this way for decades now. Even though I've gotten through a lot of my childhood issues, those same issues made me see how it is actually kind of an act of insanity to bring kids into the universe, and that's IF you've got all the things required to bring them up well. Now I'm not saying that act of insanity is inherently 'bad'. It's just the version of crazy in the sense that you're having a LOT of faith that the world will be good to that child. However, if you don't have all those things put together, having kids is either robotic or narcissistic. And when you look around at the world you really do see all too many people having kids either for NO reason, or having them to satisfy their own dreams (narcissism).
I'm sure that I don't want to have kids, but very rarely (especially late at night), I get this 'what if' urge to imagine how it would be to open myself to the possibility of motherhood. But whe I really think about why I'm having this thought it always comes back to loneliness. I don't want to find myself alone one day down the line, and having someone who is obligated to be with me at least until a certain day and then having this unspoken responsibility to at least check if I'm alive later was the best solution my subconscious came up with. And I felt horrible and selfish for it. I honestly don't understand how ppl who bash childless women say they are selfish when there's nothing more selfish that bringing a whole ass life into this world with the sole purpose of keeping you company. Get a pet.
@@sparingharbor2600 where were you going with that? you equated kids/lives to physical, material objects and just proved that having kids is a selfish, narcissistic, self-serving, God-complex ownership thing and not the altruistic mission people try to make it out to be.
@@alisharo58 metaphors can be anything that describes a similar situation. You said there’s an over abundance of kids, y have kids… I said there’s an over abundance of everything that won’t changes the fact that we’d still want to have and create our own space and family. Also sounds like you have a lot of trauma and scars. It might be news to you, but normally parents don’t have a god complex or a narcissistic desire satisfied by children. You should get help for your scars but in general all animals have children … they don’t do it out of selfish, narcissistic, self serving, god complex… it’s the opposite… having children often put the child and their priorities over urs so it’s self sacrificing … parents would often jump infront of a car to protect their child.. seen instances of a parent falling and hitting their head because they were lifting the baby up so the baby won’t be hurt… in fact selfish are the ones who say “what I make is for me and I don’t want to share or give it to anyone.” Seen a lot in modern day women who say I make my own money I don’t want to share it with a man… when men shared resources for millennia. Narcissistic.. can be anyone… there’s no research that shows more narcissists are parents than non parents… that sounds like it’s just a personal experience. Plz get help for that. I’ve seen a lot of narcissistic single ppl who think they r too good for a partner. Self serving.. in a way everyone is to an extent, but a parent raises the child so they can go out into the world and create and live their lives. Most parents derived happiness from seeing their children happy… if that’s self serving then any type of good deed or donation that makes you feel happy and content is self serving. Most parents do not come at the children with a god complex.. the intent of having children for most parents has not a single thing to do with a god complex. Parents-children don’t have god to devotee relationships. Parents don’t treat their children as if they r beneath them… but as their own eyes… they safe guard, love, cherish and protect the children… parents truly are the gods that u can actually see. No parent is perfect … there’s no handbook or guide.. but every parent is putting every ounce of their being into raising their kids and to one day see them happy and doing well for themselves. It’s a different type of a selfless happiness they derive from it. Everything you described are more of modern day child hating self important narcissistic, holier than thou, people characteristics… whom still logically try to frame it as a service to the world when it’s just to avoid the responsibilities and sacrifices it takes and have it all to themselves because they can’t see beyond themselves.
@@sparingharbor2600 "we’d still want to have and create our own space and family." I'm literally just saying you can accomplish this without creating new life. families can be made with children who are already here and who are without guardians, and you can accomplish making a family without sharing DNA with them. You're still not proving your point. My point is that many adults don't feel their children are their own unless there's been vertical gene transfer (i.e. the child is their direct off-spring), and that mentality contributes to the desire to create more lives when there are plenty of babies/children here that you can rear as your own. What's the difference between a family made with biological children vs. adopted children? Nothing, just that you can preserve your family traits with the former, and thus why that's narcissistic. I've seen people say that people who have adopted children aren't "real" parents. So again... creating children is inherently selfish because it's fueled by wanting genetic-based ownership over the child. If you thought your metaphor was a good one (it wasn't though), why'd you delete it? If you could repost it, I'd appreciate it because I want to use it as an example for others. Also, don't make inferences about my life because of my philosophical stance, that's an ad hominem defense and literally just weakens your argument even more.
I'm child free, and i can say if you are on the fence, don't have kids. There is a reason you're hesitant. You might not know it yet or be aware of what is causing that hesitation, but it's there for a reason. Listen to it. I did, and it became clear much later. Had i had a kid, they would be old enough to be really hurt by my husband's lack of empathy and care. I'm so happy i never had a kid, it's one less person in the world having to suffer from attachment issues, uncertainty, and all the rest of the horrors of the world.
Deep. I’ve heard parents say the same, unless the desire is unfaltering in you to be a parent, better to err of the side of caution than to convince yourself to become a parent.
I recently had a pregnancy scare and since then, I’ve never been more sure of wanting to be a mom. I thought I wanted to be childfree, it was just my fear of using my child to fulfill my needs like my parents did; like so many parents do. Then my therapist and I went over my journaling, and she said “you only ever talk about what you want to give them.”
im sure you would be a great mother one day because you think about these things your observant of your own behaviour and others like your parents and that will really come in handy if/when you want to start a family because we need more people like you ;) because overthinking is not a bad thing!
I read Breast and Eggs last year and loved it! I know you said you prefer the "egg" part, but I actually find it really hard to choose which side I liked better. They both raised such interesting questions for women.
I've felt this way for a long time. I understand that although there's no way to know how much suffering a child will have to experience, life is still full of so much beauty and so much to be grateful for. but, at the very least, I hope this conversation about how no one chooses to be born truly makes people stop and consider their real motivations behind wanting to bring new people into the world, *and* what type of life they can realistically provide their children. I think even if people disagree with a lot of this sentiment and think it's too nihilistic or what have you, it's undeniable that there's a staggering lack of self awareness among parents/potential parents regarding why they want children, or if they're fit to be parents, which hurts everyone. we live in an increasingly difficult/scary world, and attaining a properly dignified life is harder with every year that passes. and my own opinion is that just bc you want something, doesn't mean you should have it, especially when it inextricably involves someone else's entire life. it's okay to make "selfish" choices, but (the way I see it) having a child is unique. if you're not prepared to put in an ungodly amount of effort to unconditionally love , support, and show kindness to your child no matter what, treat them as a human and not an object, and hold urself accountable for where you need to do better, then parenthood is not for you. imo, parenthood is not for most people. I think understanding the inherent selfishness in having children has the potential to foster better self awareness and preparedness in people who still decide to become parents. I have my own additional unpopular opinions on this subject, but I am glad to see it being discussed more among ppl who are on the fence. Life is hard, and creating life can be so easy, even accidental. Imo this means there must be a huge level of care taken whenever possible when it comes to bringing new life into the world.
Agreed. Too many parents focus on only the baby phase, think 18 is the age maturation when it’s not even close, assume the person their child will be, etc. I’ve heard people say it needs to be mandated for potential parents take a child development psychology class and I really agree. I still find having children to be selfish no matter what, but if a parent knows exactly what they’re doing and are committing to always centering their lives around raising the child as best as humanly possible then at least that would be a great improvement.
i'm definitely happy to be child free. every now and then i do imagine what it would be like to be able to help someone become their best possible self but I think for me that just means i'm going to look into mentorship or something along those lines once i've got all my ducks in a row.
Very important subject. I´d recommend Tomas Ligotti' s "Conspiracy against the human race" where the author asks the question: Is life ok? (spoiler: his answer is no).
I think it is smart to think about what it means being a parent and kids ,no matter in what story, are forced to do something that they don't want to. However, I feel if we all think like this, it probably the end of us.
such a calming vibe, I love that I discovered you! Thank you for the close reading, it gives us real insight into the writing and now I cannot wait to get to this book
My friend and I talked about being childfree or not, for about 2-3 years. We both changed our mind many times through those years, but in the end we found our answer by having all these conversations :) I already knew I am not a kids person, but It took years to realize I don't want kids. I will be cat mom and I am looking forward to that future
We infrequently contemplate the harms that await any new-born child-pain, disappointment, anxiety, grief, and death. For any given child we cannot predict what form these harms will take or how severe they will be, but we can be sure that at least some of them will occur. None of this befalls the nonexistent. Only existers suffer harm. David Benatar
beautiful video! Thank you for sharing. I am on the fence as well. I am married now. Before we got married I made sure to be very clear about my husband about where I stood on having a baby: that there's a bigger chance that I will never be ready for it and that I don't want them to suffer -- and in the height of my depression (I still have it, but it's not so bad currently), I see the future as bleak. Will they be happy? I'm happy to report that we are of the same mind about having kids or not.
I've been wanting to read this book since I heard about it years ago, but I want it in Japanese which make the book easily cost 4x as much. I might either have to just fork up the money or cave and get it in English. I, personally, have not wanted children since I was a teenager and started realizing the truth about motherhood and my own parents. All you have to do is listen to women who have already gone through it... listen to them when they don't know you're listening, because as soon as they realize you (a childless female) are actually listening, they'll start whistling a completely different tune and suddenly be "pro-baby". My mom always said she didn't want kids, but being raised in a fundamentalist christian cult (and they ALL are cults) when she got pregnant there was "no options" for her. So, just like her mother before her... a shot gun wedding ensued leading to a miserable existence for everyone involved. Most especially the children. Listening to my mother blame us for her never being able to achieve her dreams. Watching her descend into full on alcoholism to the point she straight up said if she had to choose between a bottle of Jack and the family, she'd choose Jack... and I absolutely don't blame her. And then the gaslighting for all the traumas she directly caused by comparing her own childhood to ours (her father was an alcoholic, but a physically violent one. Whereas my mother is mostly a psychologically violent one, sometimes tipping into physical) And my "martyr" father? Always gaining the pity of others because his total lack of inaction made him seem like a victim. In truth, if you are an adult and you even have the choice to act or not - inaction in itself is an action. Inaction in itself is your choice. And he chose to let it continue. He chose to do nothing about it. In his male brain, he had achieved his manly goal and couldn't understand why it didn't work out (he was raised in the 50's, so the man's goal, of course, is to have a job and a wife who does literally everything else for you... she cooks, she cleans, she cleans the baby diapers, she does EVERYTHING else... you just go to work and come home and get praised for existing). Yeah, my mother directly caused my trauma... but men like my father, the patriarchy, and the christo-cult indoctrination... those are what created the soil that these seeds of misery were sown in. So, watching all this unfold before me, and then hearing about women whose teeth fell out, fetuses turned cancerous or calcified, got gestational diabetes, fetuses that died and rotted in the womb, and many many many other things (my aunt is a nurse). Yeah.... I knew since age 12 that I wasn't jumping on that boat. And I tried impressing upon my friends that babies aren't the "sparkles and joy" that they try to sell us, but they didn't listen. And now we're in our 30's and I get to hear the same, or similar, stories from them. What's extra funny about them though, is they're more inclined to divorce their partners... so now they're going through all that shit on only one income? And yes, only the income matters... men, historically, don't do shit around the house and are in many ways just like having a child already. So, having them around doesn't help.. but their paychecks sure do. IDGAF... they created this bullshit, if they don't like hearing about it then they should stand the fvkk up and fix it. Highly doubt this article of a comment will ever be fully read, so I'll now release it into the void of the internet. If you made it this far, regardless of your stance, kudos to you.
This is it. This is the best I’ve heard my stance articulated on the internet. Lots of parallels between what you experienced and my experience, and I just want to thank you for taking the time to put a voice behind a school of thought many of us are just too exhausted to articulate. Thank you.
I've never read a reasoning so close to how I feel why I don't want kids and my general dislike for society as it is.. just my family trauma and religion are a different flavour
My sister is currently pregnant with a boy and it is very interesting to see her perception of being the mother of a "man", she believes that she will spend less money than if it was a girl, that it will be less work than a girl, all due to the fact of being a son. But she doesn't even know her kid yet...What if it's someone with special needs? What if it's a trans child? What if it's someone with a difficult personality? Why are expectations about this new life designed before it even exists?
Boys can be very high energy. I didn't sleep in a single morning for the first 6 years with mine. Special interests can be costly. Just cuz boys might not wear dresses doesn't mean they won't have some costly hobbies or educational needs. No regrets though on my part, au contraire.
Ultimately, I think this question comes down to whether one believes life is worth living despite suffering. Although I have suffered in my life and I’m sure there will be painful times in the future, I have reached a point where I feel grateful to be alive and to be able to experience joy, love, and other good things. I think the nihilistic viewpoint of this book would have spoken to me more in my worst depressive/suicidal states, having survived my lowest points I can say that I am grateful I was born because the love and friendship I have experienced have made it all worth it. I now know I want to have children because I want to give the gift of life, and because I have so much love to give to my future kid(s). I want to share with them all the things that make me happy, that to me, have made life worth living. In regards to what she said about a future child’s suffering/happiness, I think that while you can’t shield your children from all suffering, you can reduce how much suffering they’ll have in life by simply being a loving, supportive, attentive parent. You can be financially responsible so that you can pass something down to them. I have an interest in child development/psychology, and so I’ve learned that parents make the biggest impact on the trajectory of their child’s life. So I think instead of not having kids solely due to fear, people should educate themselves on how to be the best parent possible to give their kids the best life possible.
ur right that people need to put effort into preparing themselves to become good parents to do as much as they can to mitigate their child's suffering, but the fact is that most people don't, and won't. additionally, I'd like to say that I'm glad that u feel grateful for ur life now since things have gotten better for u, that's wonderful. that makes u very lucky, because the fact is not everyone can experience that. sometimes people's lives end one way or another, cut short before they get a chance to achieve real joy/experience real love. sometimes things are just so painful for so long that sticking it out simply doesn't feel worth it. and everyone has a different capacity for how much they can withstand. especially in today's world, it's so important to be realistic about how every year, every generation, achieving happiness/safety in life gets harder and harder for most ppl. considering if one believes life is worth living despite suffering is one piece of the puzzle, but it's not the whole thing. how much suffering are u predicting ur child might face, considering ur/their circumstances? are u willing to have faith that they'll be resilient enough to live thru that, and are u okay with forcing them to? I think these are also important questions here
Agreed that it comes down to choosing life in spite of suffering. Unfortunately however whatever you found that brings you joy may not be what the child finds joyous. They might find nothing brings them joy. We try our best to find our life rafts because we’re inclined to swim and survive rather than sink and self-delete, but not everyone finds their life raft. It’s a huge gamble to assume a person will find life (that you admittedly say is a struggle) worth living just because you did. There’s a lot of stories of children having utterly dedicated, loving parents and still growing up and choosing to throw their life away. I’m not judging what you’re saying, I’m just saying. I hear stories of children under 10 choosing to opt out and their worlds should technically be the most filled with a joyous mentality as they (likely) haven’t yet faced the real brunt of life. It’s really wild.
@@baby.yogurt It’s true that I can’t know exactly how much suffering my child would experience, but I would at least make an effort to let them suffer less than I did. I would give them a lot of support and love and hopefully that would make them resilient in the face of whatever they might face. I would try to have faith that they’d be ok, but you’re right that there’s no guarantee. The only thing i can say to that is that i’m grateful my parents made that bet on me, and i hope that my child would feel the same way eventually.
@@alisharo58 I agree that not everyone finds their life raft, but I would do my best to be a raft to my child until they find their own. And yeah, you are right that my child may not experience joy or find life worth living. I guess i just would do everything in my power to make them be ok, and believe in them the same way i’ve believed in myself~ that they would be able to make it through hardships.
@@et2223 I like your dedication and optimism, I genuinely just feel sad that people take these high risks when there’s a life at stake, but I genuinely do hope it works out for you and those future people.
It's true, if your child will never be born, it will never experience pain. But it will also never experience all the good things in life, hapiness, love etc. So if you think, this is a good argument, then you must give the negative feelings a higher weight. I think, this is part of our culture to see negative feelings as negtive in the first place. Why are they negative? They are just there, but we consinder them negative. We consider crying as negative - while actually it is a relieve. We think we should always be happy, but if you're always happy, you wouldn't know what happy actually means. Being alive is not just pain. It's being alive, and we can see this as bad or good or just realistic: both.
But this is not me, I actually see life as pain. xD Still I don't know if I want to be a mother or not. The answer should be no? But maybe there sill is hope that life is not just bad, even if it feels like it is. The older we get, the happier we became, statistically. So ...
I disagree... the outcome of happiness all revolves around the mentality of the parents. You can tell how happy a kid is going to be by simply looking at their parents' perspective of things. The generations before the Baby Boomers and Gen-Xers all wanted "better lives for their kids than they had"... and the Baby Boomers and Gen-Xers have the mentality of "Well I didn't get that, so why should you?" Which lead to generations of kids who have less than their parents before them, are struggling in nearly every way imaginable, and are gaslighted about it by those very people who brought them into this world. If you choose to have children, knowing full and well you won't support anything that improves their lives if it means they get something you don't (like a spoiled entitled toddler), then you know full well you're going to have miserable children. And I'll press even further that if you chose to have children simply because you were told you should and never questioned the indoctrination you were raised in... the likelihood of your children being miserable goes up considerably.
You know, the guaranteed absence of suffering seems better than the possibility of good things, at least to me. Especially if you consider that it's impossible for someone to never experience anything negative during their lifetime. There are other ways of giving children a happy life than bringing more and more of them into the world. What is considered negative or positive is absolutely dependent on culture and worldview, but I would say that most people can agree on what would be considered unbearable (if we ignore religious beliefs).
@@Othique Wow, your take is.. bizarre. You think life is getting harder because of apathy among parents? Really? Look, life is getting harder because we elect idiots into office. We spend, spend, spend, all the while accomplishing nothing but enriching the rich and making the poor poorer through higher taxes and inflation.
i read this book recently and the conversation natsu has with yuriko stayed with me. although the two of them come from two different experiences both of them somehow helped each other fill the gaps in each others experiences. i could not by the end of the book disagree with either of them. personally, natsu saying she wants to know this child of hers and yuriko saying why to wake up these sleeping children, when you know they cannot become like you. somehow it explained a lot of emotions about womanhood and motherhood to me as if someone had really understood me
"All human actions are nothing more than attempts to heal the mistake of their existence." Abdullah al-Qasemi Also: Whenever I reflect, my reflecting upon what I suffer only rouses me to blame him that begot me. And I gave peace to my children, for they are in the bliss of nonexistence which surpasses all the pleasures of this world. Had they come to life, they would have endured a misery casting them to destruction in trackless wildernesses."
I was asking myself about bringing a child into this messed up world, talking to a childless guy. And he shook me telling me "what if them come to make a change, make a difference". Life is different with her today and I'm trying to fulfill whatever potential she has as far as she wants to take it.
People always think “what if the child can provide for us one day?” meanwhile placing the child in a world that doesn’t provide for them (the child). It’s very parasitic.
I've thought on and off about having kids through my 20s and 30s, but it wasn't until I asked my mom why she became a mother that I realised it wasn't for me. She said it was her life goal to be a mother, and she is happy she fulfilled her goal. And it was so out of left field for my mind. Like I would NEVER have that has a life goal, and that's when I realised that it felt to me like an obligation or social burden. That said, I do think there needs to be way more support for parents. Kids do need to be born to continue the species (especially with drastically falling birth rates), so we should all be investing time and money in ensuring children are born into enough resources to healthily raise them. We need free nurseries/childcare, baby boxes, sufficient parental leave for all parents, food and clothing, at a minimum. I think middle schoolers should also have to take parenting and general caring classes in school so they understand the responsibilities and costs of being a parent. And I also think we should have a 4 day work week and UBI so that parents can truly invest sufficient time in helping their kids grow up.
Recently I realized that even if I'm not planning on having kids right now (financial issues, I didn't get my independence yet) it's a matter I can't stop thinking about. I always thought having children is one of the most selfish decisions that, ironically, turns your life in a series of selfless acts. It's like life makes you compensate the decision you've made. I'm on the fence too, and I feel if I don't have children I don't have hope in life, so I realize it's all about me, again. On the other hand, I can see millenials are more on the not wanting kids part, so I don't know if it's a generational thing. In my case, I've always struggled to have financial freedom and following my own path, and I feel I'd lose it with a child depending on me.
@@ihcf I agree. The child will always suffer the brunt of the decision, but I just feel OP is saying that a real (I.e, involved) parent also suffers it with them , one way or another. parents don’t realize that. Having kids is a lose-lose situation if the child turns out to be dissatisfied with life. I’ve heard stories of parents lives falling apart (divorce, financial ruin, their own mental health collapsing, etc) due to witnessing their child’s suffering.
it is important to understand that a valid argument is not necessarily a good argument. The antinatalist perspective can be internally consistent, but that does not mean that it is the only truth. It is not "wrong" to have a baby because suffering is inevitable in life. If you personally do not think that it is worth it then that is perfectly fine. Do not have children. But others feel that the suffering of existence is worth it. I am someone who has suffered tremendously in life and still do. Just about every kind of pain and terror that a person can experience I have. Yes I wanted to have a child for many reasons, some of which you mentioned in the video so I wont go into an exhaustive list. But when addressing the issue of suffering, for me, it comes down to the dichotomy between love and suffering. This theme is found time and again in spiritual traditions for a reason. With existence suffering is inevitable, but love makes it worthwhile. There are different kind of love. they all are beautiful and some can even bring about their own suffering especially passionate love, but what im really talking about is agape love. This is something that not everyone experiences. Some people have it naturally, but it can also be taught. People, like me who experience it know that the world would be a better place if more people knew it. It does not scrub suffering out of existence but it certainly makes it worth it. This universe created life. We are here to experience it for some reason, or perhaps by natural happenstance, it doesn't ultimately matter. What is amazing about us though, is that we can do what no other matter can do. We can learn and know and love. We can choose to keep these amazing powers going, or give up on this incredibly rare and precious process called life -- in our case this highly aware human kind of life. Some of our suffering is self inflicted. My goal as a parent is to do my best to bring a life into the world and foster their growth into a person full of so much love that they feel the pains of existence are worth it. And hopefully SO full of love that it spills out a little hopefully it spreads a little and makes some corner of the world a little less horrible to exist within. If everyone had that goal in mind and worked hard at it life could be so much better. Never free from suffering, but clearly a better option that non existence.
@@t.a.yeah. Thank you for saying this. For the record I was never spiritual or religious. In fact most of my life I was somewhat of a militant atheist. I did however always have this deep feeling of awe and love for the universe. Eventually I realized that that feeling is the root of spirituality in a lot of people. It seems to me that most people have this deep sense within them. How they express it or process it in their life is personal for everyone. Scientists tend to express it by studying nature and trying to gain a deeper objective understanding of it. Religious people map these feelings onto allegories and Any number of spiritual being Or meaning. I find so much truth within the themes of spiritual traditions even though I Don't Believe in the greater religion that surrounds it. I am not in any way shape or form a Christian but I understand the meaning behind the story of Jesus's crucifixion. It is an allegory for just what I was talking about the dachotomy of love and suffering. This is the Christian's way of expressing this idea. God wanted to show his love for humanity and so decided to suffer in the greatest way possible. Create a child who would suffer one of the most gruesome possible deaths To accept punishment for all the sins of man. Therefore according to their tradition Freeman from the guilt of their sins as long as they accept this gift from jesus. It's a bit of a gas light as I see it.And as someone who does not understand these deeper meanings it definitely just seems like a snuff story. On the surface it always seemed ridiculous to me how can you show love by murdering your son. Nonetheless that deeper meaning is what they are expressing through that story. That's just one example. One last point to make is that I used to be far more judgmental of people who had beliefs that I did not. Having a child Introduced love into my heart on a level that I never knew was possible and through this relationship with my grown far more understanding of people with differences. Parenting is not easy and it has also introduced other hardships into my life. But the lessons learned and the love experienced is so worth it for me. Because of my child I feel more capable of making not only my life better but the lives of others better.
For this reason I decided not to have children. It's called antinatalism. I recommend The Trouble with Being Born by Emil Cioran and Better Never to Have Been by David Benatar for deeper dive. Also, I will read this book! Thank you for sharing! 😊❤️
The huge missing component from this conversation is trauma. People arrive at the conclusion that life is just pain and suffering and it's better not to exist because of trauma they have been through. And on the other side trauma and toxic cultures cause people to be completely unfit to be parents, and become parents for selfish reasons. In my ideal world nobody would have a child unless they first heal their own trauma, establish a secure and stable living environment without any abusers and plenty of finances in a safe part of the world, and make it their number one priority to be extremely conscious and mindful as a parent and also ideally at least one parent able to stay home with the child during developmental years. We are way too flippant with children's lives. As far as whether or not to have kids I think beyond these concerns we need to think about the state of the planet and the ethics. Are we bringing another human into the world to eat animal products causing more unnecessarily violence, for example? And all of the resources the child will use throughout their lifetime. With all those considerations I still believe people who check all the boxes I've mentioned and who are doing the right thing in this world have every right to have hopefully not more than two children. And to not do it for any selfish reason. People in the stop having kids movement say that every reason is a selfish reason. Because I have healed my trauma with magic mushroom trips I've come to see that life is extremely beautiful and it is simply trauma, violence, and unethical systems that cause pain and suffering but it is not an automatic thing that needs to exist in life. I'm contending with it all as a 27-year-old with a boyfriend who is certain he wants to have a kid.
To add on I don't believe you are gambling with a life if you provide a safe loving home without any abuse or trauma and meet your child's needs and parent extremely consciously and mindfully. Unless you have a crippling health concern in your genetics, I guess that would be the only way you would really be gambling. But that's also getting into the mindset of living in fear which is no way to live a happy life.
The unethical systems have been in place for centuries though, no? Still sounds like you’re saying it’s not possible to create life without it being selfish and to the child’s detriment. I also wonder what it means that many people don’t have your revelation about the disease of the system without mind-altering drugs (I have nothing against drugs/substances, but I do wish our brains didn’t need them to wake up). I hope humanity does evolve to see the way to produce a more ethical, sustainable world (naturally and without drugs), but it won’t be until much further into the future, I feel.
My take: Sure, if someone has a kid, they have no way to know if in the future that kid would have wanted to be born. But, one also does not know if that kid would decline to be born; it goes either way. Either way there is the risk of the outcome being something that this hypothetical kid wouldnt have wanted. If a kid is born and regrets it later, this is something that can be changed (there is the possibility of them changing their mind and being glad they were born) If a kid isn’t born but would’ve wanted to be born if they were, this most certainly can not be changed. Now ik that there isn’t really a kid to do the experiencing here, but I dont think this means it doesnt matter; if I go to someone and say “I am going to send you into oblivion, but dont worry, you wont feel harmed while youre in oblivion since you wont feel anything”, I doubt they will find comfort in this.
@@facthunt2facthunt245 I already answered that ( your point about not experiencing suffering by never existing) in my comment, and I strongly disagree with this idea of reducing existence to suffering.
Funny how so many like this. I didn’t think I wanted children because I didn’t think I had good parenting skills. Then I had my children-now adults-who tell me they think they turned out fine so I did better than I thought. What you don’t discuss is the absolute love you share with your children. If you haven’t experienced it you really don’t know. Life is risky-challenges and difficult feelings are just part of the experience And so is love, joy healthy relationships etc
Thank you for your comment! I agree with what you said. I think I decided to only focus on this part and subject of the book is because it isn’t talked about very often. Everyone always talks about the joy and upside of having children. Which I don’t get me wrong I’ve seen as well. Grew up with tons of cousins and babies in a warm family. But this book and this comment section made me realize that isn’t the case for everyone. As someone who’s thinking about having kids I thought it was worth is to share. Thank you for watching I really appreciate it 💕
If no one who has ever existed ever "asked" to be born, then that is not really a realistic aspect to consider when you're wondering whether or not you should have kids. Perhaps you can say it's not fair, but that's how you got here, that's how I got here, that's how every human being got here. Life is full of choices, yes, but it's mostly NOT full of choices. You don't get to choose to be born, you don't get to choose to be human, you don't get to choose to need food and water, you don't get to choose your family, you don't get to choose your place of birth, you don't get to choose the teachers you have growing up, you don't even get to choose your likes and dislikes on some level. Does that mean that every area of life where you didn't get to make a choice is unfair? Maybe, and this is what I believe, that's just life? It's not about fair or not fair. Choice is not a guarantee. In fact, things you get to choose are outnumbered by the things you DON'T get to choose. That doesn't lead me to say, "Life is unfair, suck it up." It makes me realize that that's just how life IS. It's not fair or unfair, it just is. And it also makes the limited things we DO get to choose all the sweeter. And choosing whether or not to have kids is YOUR choice. Just like it was your parents' choice. Just like it will be your future child's choice. Your child may not get to choose to be born, just like you didn't get to choose to be born, but they get to have the equal choice that you had, and your parents had, and their parents had, etc., whether or not to have kids. I see that as fundamentally fair in the end. As for choosing not to have kids to protect them from the pain of reality... I couldn't help but think about Anne of Green Gables. The characters in Breasts and Eggs seem to be quite nihilistic about life. But Anne, an orphan who was mistreated and lonely for years in her early childhood, had an outlook on life that made her thankful for all the small beauties the world had to offer. She made people's lives better with that outlook, people who didn't even have as hard of a life as she did but were still grumpy most of the time. Yes, life is full of pain. But life is also full of beauty and pleasure. Isn't it presumptuous of you to decide that your potential child would rather be spared the pain of reality? What if you are actually denying your potential child the pleasure of reality? There is no way for you to know whether that child will have enjoyed being born or not. And the truth is, the overwhelming majority of people, even those who have gone through the most hardship in life, prefer existence to non-existence. I think I have a lot of beauty and pleasure to offer my future children. Just like the nihilist who wants to take their chances sparing a future child from the pain of reality, I'm going to take my chances offering a future child the joy of reality.
@@SagidCarter You're welcome! Don't get me wrong, I appreciated learning about that different perspective from the book and your thoughts on it, but I thought I'd add my outlook too. :)
If someone is not willing to take care of a living child by adoption, that is a surefire sign of telling you that you are not fit to be a parent either way
At the risk of being both a weeb and a critic of a novel i haven't read, i feel like i should weigh in on the author's use of the word selfish. In Japan and other East Asian countries, people are taught from a young age to think about the collective first and themselves second. Finding a partner when people are sometimes pressured to work so hard they die from stress-induced suicide does not sound like a healthy or sustainable social environment, to say nothing of the challenges of having kids too. Second, there are two levels of selfish a person can have: ones where they get what they want through free and fair exchange and one where they take more than they give. While the latter is unsustainable of everything does it for too long, the former is arguably fair and just (and damn hard to get right).
I think people should know that having kids automaticly means that the kid will be traumatized. Not necessarily because you want to traumatize them, but because our own life, society and this day and age is not good for being alive. Also, your kids are basicly your prisoners, if you think about it. But staying with the prospective parents, you will mess up, you will ruin your child's life. The whole thing is rigged against you. So knowing this, if you actually decide to have kids, be a more considerate jailer. Good luck out there!
I've read Near Death Experiences where people who passed over to the other side and then came back to life said that many souls choose to come to Earth, and they even choose to be born to challenging parents / family dynamics.
Yeah as someone raised on this, its downright awful and cruel. Any sort of critique, upset or yknow, general childishness I showed, was punished and I was told I deserved it because "I chose" to be born to them. Its an extremely insidious thing to justify doing horrific things to your kids, and placing the blame back on them - cause they chose to be here right? I'd be willing to bet anyone who says sh like that is just trying to shift blame from being awful to their children, and trying to placate their feelings of guilt by making up a narrative.
@@onions831 so sorry you dealt with that. as someone who’s reading books that state ideas similar to OP’s comment, I’m hesitant to fully accept the ideas and your comment provides me with another reason why I should be suspicious of those ideas.
Looking forward to hear what you think about the book! The author has a son herself so I don’t think so but of course that doesn’t necessarily mean anything!
children are a luxury and should be treated as such and more people shouldn't than should be parents. I live in poor conditions. I almost guarantee all the poor women in this building with me regret having their child or children. Most of these women dont even treat these children like children, its sad. When youre poor a child is such a crazy money sink and youre locked to it for 18 if not more years. How some women dont think about this is insane to me. As a kid I was reckless a few times but as an adult bro im not playing with that baby shi. Im wrapping my shi up, taking it slow. Hell I'd even get a vasectomy but thats a conversation for a later date xdd. I don't even mind children. I don't understand people who hate children yes they are annoying but they are brilliant little people.
We live in a time of climate collapse, environmental collapse, ecological collapse. Women who are giving birth now are condemning their child to a life made miserable by this rapidly developing collapse. A child born now will see the worst of this catastrophe by the time they reach middle age. I wouldn't wish this fate on anybody, not least a child whom I love. It's going to be awful. Huge waves of starving refugees. Desperate wars fought over declining resources, not the least of which would be water. The economy will also collapse as impoverished consumers can no longer buy things. Impoverished people will turn to crime just to survive. Dystopia just over the horizon. Don't inflict it on an innocent child.
The basic facts that your child has to work for years in a capitalistic world for basic needs (unless you’re a 1% and can afford to retire them at birth) and then die one day, possibly slowly and/or painfully … the fact that these facts don’t deter more people from having kids is utterly mind boggling to me and proof than societal brainwashing/mind control is real.
In accordance with my conception of life, I have chosen not to bring children into the world. A coin is examined, and only after careful deliberation, given to a beggar, whereas a child is flung out into the cosmic brutality without hesitation. Peter Wessel Zapffe
Let me guess. All the people claiming that wanting a child is selfish still seek out the relationships. Still seek out the love making. But that final piece of the relationship puzzle to raise another life is the selfish aspect to ignore. We spend our whole lives consuming. We consume other's energy. Consume meat. Every aspect of our survival and even leisure is spent consuming something. Creating a child and raising it is the most selfless thing we do. It is the only time we give of ourselves expecting little to nothing back. We literally sacrifice our lives to save our young. But we call making children selfish. Sure.....People go to war and die protecting their kids. Parents jump in front of bears, trains, cars and die saving, not only their kids, but other people's kids. If having children is selfish, then all other aspects of life are even more selfish.
Completely understand where you’re coming from but I think when people talk about having children being selfish is because you can’t ask the child if they even want to be born. The only reason people have children is because they want to. And let’s not forget that A LOT of children are born in poverty, misery, with parents who don’t know how or don’t want to raise their kids. In cases like that I understand that people see having kids as a selfish act because you brought a human being into a world just to suffer if we’re really honest. I’ve actually met people who wish they weren’t born. I think it’s really good that more and more people really think about what it means to bring a life into the world and if they are able to give their kid the life they deserve.
@@SagidCarter Imm 44 years old. Traveled across the world. I have never met a person who legitimately wished they did not live. The few people who do think like this barely live past 10 years old. An adult stating that they wish they did not exist are essentially lying. Give them a gun and tell them they can end it now, a d you will see that 99% will not. That 1% that do are in a state of hopelessness based on circumastance. The truth is that envionmental circumstance and hopelessness make people wish for suicide. But you will never neet a person perfectly happy in life wishing they didnt exist. This whole concept is based on circumstances or hardships. Yet even with hardships 99% of people want the chance to thrive. So we are going to stop creating children during hardship just because 1% or less will hate living? That is madness. What about these people who dont apprecate the chance to live and thrive? Are they not selfish also for their kack of appreciation to participate in the cycle of life? Creating the next generation of life is the fundamental basic function of any living being. From a virus to an elephant, the one two jobs a living creature has is to thrive and to procreate. A coyote in a famine filled land isnt wondering if her pups will hate living in famine with wolves hunting it. She is thinking that she must survive and keep her genetic line going as long as possible. She isnt even actively thinking that, it is jusy ingrained in her being to function that way.
@@SagidCarter Also the trend i see is that the most anti-religious and nti-spiritual people are always the ones against creating or maintaining life. They act as if souls of the unborn exist and that they have will, and you can figure out that will. But talk to them about spirituality or religion and they call you a clown. But they are the ones saying that your mind could be born in the wrong body or that we shoukd consider if life wants to be born. As if we would know what personality resides in the eggs in womens overies. This odd logic of trying to over-complicatedly rationalize the sterilization of hunans, restricting birth, and even promoting early death like they are doing in Canada is mostly in line with a sort of cultlike thinking. Because these concepts are not natural in human thinking. The acfions of humans do nkt mafch the concepts, because the overwhelming majority of humans live till they cant anymore and seek out the act of procreation, even when they dont. The only way these concepts will make sense for me is if i see a social contagion of youth living perfectly happy lives committing suicide enmass expressing a lack of desire to live. And a huge surge of people not seeking physical relationships with others, because they dont want kids at all. Similar to a movie from japan called "The Suicide Club". A movie about a group of jpop idols leading a secret society of people who hated being born and ulimately kill themselves wether their lives were good or not. Otherwise at this time, we have everyones actions showing they are prolife /procreation, while their words speak of death.
@@SagidCarter Yeah it was a good book review. Might i suggest you look up the "rat utopia experiments". It has a lot in correlation with the concepts listed in the book you reviewed. When under hardship the desire to procreate and thrive goes up. When under luxury, the desire to self destruct goes up.
I wonder why in Japan, with its long and deep Buddhist history, this woman can't see the spiritual view of being human: that the person can realise the Infinite in themselves. Of course to a material girl, that makes no sense, and life is just a problem and full of pain, not an opportunity.
@@Enriquez2222this makes you a selfish person, everyone has problems the truth is your problems are nothing compared to others you are blessed to be able to think this way.
The anti natalist position that having a kid is immoral towards the kid and that it would be better off not being brought to existence is absolutely absurd. You can't have a moral position in relation to a non entity. It literally doesn't exist! No one is better off not being born because then they simply aren't anyone to be. Also I just generally think life is worth living despite the inevitable pain and suffering. The good times outweigh the bad times and life is more beautiful than it is ugly, unless you are in a really impossible situation. Though I have a feeling people advocating that birth itself is immoral fundamentally disagree with this.
On my own I dont want them, my boyfriend wants them in future I want to make him happy I somehow wish I could do that without ever regretting it's a permanent choice.
Your relationship is for a season, not a lifetime. Enjoy it as it is now, but pleeease do not have kids to appease other people. As the woman, even if he wants to actively be a dad, most of the childcare will still be on you. Society will still put pressure on you to do most if not all of the care. Mothers are also unfairly paid *less* in the workplace since they’re expected to put more time into their kids than the workplace (it’s bullshit, but that’s reality). I could go on. You have to really want motherhood and accept and embrace the very hard challenges that come with it.
If you're going to avoid having children, do it for a reason that makes sense. This idea that it's somehow a violation to "force" someone to be born goes entirely against the whole point of being alive in the first place - to make more life. That's why living beings exist - to make more living beings. Bow out if you like, but don't tell yourself it's because you're doing the potential child a favor just by denying it a chance to live. (What makes you think it's so much better NOT to be born?)
This is a very sad book. I do agree with her because she was a baby once and grew up. She has lived life and has some points(from what was read in the video. I haven’t read this book myself) What we need to remember is babies grow up and it’s up to us as parents to raise them to the best of our ability. That means taking a real look in the mirror and fixing ourselves. That is where the pain starts. Before the world can get to a child it all starts with the parent. I can’t say we’ll be perfect mothers or even a perfect partner (if you want or have a partner during motherhood) and not everything is going to be perfect but what is wrong with that? Yes, you could say having a child is selfish but not having a child is also selfish because you’re still thinking about yourself and your experiences in life. Who’s to say your child will go through what you did? To me that phrase is used to parents who genuinely don’t care about their kids. Regardless, I encourage everyone to think about having kids before it’s too late (biological exist and we’re not made equal). If having a child isn’t for you then that’s ok. But if you want kids you have to work towards it. It’s scary and hard but it’s not impossible and it is rewarding.
I highly respect your opinion, I just personally believe being selfish alone is way better than being selfish with a baby who has to suffer the consequences
@@dr.k1012 I agree. If you’re going to put yourself first in EVERYTHING than you shouldn’t be a mother/parent. I feel like as you get older you get to have more and more liberty to do things again. Which is a sacrifice in itself that not a lot of people are willing to do but want kids. I definitely get where you’re coming from.
The way you are raised or later treated in the world can be harmful but that’s human life and the cycle of our existence😂 people have to have children😂 stop acting like it’s foolish to do so. Do it when you can afford it and you are happily married. Some don’t need children at all but y’all are acting like we should all just stop
@Enriquez2222 yeah but they are acting like reproduction is a crime or act of violence 🤣 it has to happen its the cycle of life and she was going to until the book persuaded her not to
i think that already, we as women nowadays are not pressured to have kids as much as other generations, decades ago. So having this as a ‘hot’ topic that is perceived as something controversial is immature in my opinion.This is very personal and intimate, even SPIRITUAL matter that each person decides for themselves. And this subject matter, shouldnt be the one to virtue signal about ‘whats fair’. No one could deny that having a child of your own is another way to evolve for you as a human being, to know yourself. And also mature even more, taking more responsibility. That book authors view is a bit absurd in my opinion because it exposes this womans (authors)spiritual immaturity to this subject. Her world view is very nihilistic… and she wants to spread it by writing a book :) not wanting to have kids is maybe hiding behind subconcious fear of growing up themselves. Modern adult person want to be a kid forever, without responsibilies.. peter pan syndrome im just expressing my opinion, if im a bit harsh in my words, pardon me… this is serious subject matter :)
There's a lot of people with Peter Pan syndrome who believe having a child will be the magic pill that can transform them into mature adult or at least make them feel like one. I think that's a lot more common than "I don't want a child because I'd have to grow up." I don't think adults these days want to be kids forever. People are tired and miss simpler times. I think people are just more honest with themselves and realistic. Not everyone is meant to be a parent we know that now.
@@mayabythesea😂😂😂 people have more now than ever before but don't want to have kids the mondern world is basically designed for children not real adults
Misandry and anti maternity are not solutions to humanity's problems. Too many educated and well off women aren't having children, and too many impoverished people are having too many.
I don´t see how this book has anything to do with misandry (granted, I haven´t read it). Also, no one is here for solutions to "save the world" anyway. Your second statement, however, can come off as biased and insulting since it seems to imply that there are people who deserve or should have children, and others who shouldn´t. I understand the stance of wanting children to grow up in a financially stable family, but telling poor people they´re not priviledged anough to have children is not it. In case I´ve misunderstood you I´m sorry.
It may not be the best thing for society, but it may be the best thing for the individual women concerned. And personally, I want to live in a world where my individual choices are respected, don't you?
@@emanym I don’t understand this need to preserve humanity. Perhaps we have become too maladaptive. If we go extinct nature will evolve a better species. Getting married young and having a child are my greatest regrets. I thought I was unique in this until I started connecting with women across the world who share the notion that motherhood is often a thankless, stressful, soul sucking, lonely, depressing, destructive path that takes your relationship, takes your health, takes your financial freedom, on and on. Of course mothers are often willing to sacrifice for their kids, but the end result is to watch your kids grow up to face the same brutality of this life: death, loss, stress, loneliness, fear, slaving away for a wage before they too return to the dirt. What sense does it make to continue this cycle
@@emanymone of the better things to come out of the internet is all the wives and mothers online telling younger women the truth. It’s too late for me, I’m 25 and bought into the false promise very early in life, but I am hopeful for the other young women who will get the message on time and opt out
Not justifying anything. Just reading a few pages from a book that stuck with me. Nobody is making a cult. And like I said in the video I don’t know for sure if I want kids. This part of the book just gave me a perspective that I never thought/heard of which I find interesting and wanted to share.
Idk this is very a very cynical take on parenthood. I believe that on a soul level we all chose to be born. as someone who got pregnant before I planned to, I felt on my bones that this baby wanted to be here and that it was part of god's plan for me to steward her on earth. of course there are plenty of people having children that are not fit to be parents and cause a lot of suffering. But come on, let's follow this to its logical conclusion, what do you want, the government to get involved with who can or can not procreate? that's straight out of a dystopian novel. Do you want everyone to just give up, make themselves sterile and end the human race because we are just that horrible? to be anti-natalist is to be anti-human, straight up. Call me naive but I have hope our children can forge a better future. I consider our children to be a gift to the world.
Yeah, watch how this current generation blame the next for all the messed up issues that keep being passed back. The world doesn’t get better, just better at hiding it’s worst parts
if your taking advice from Japanese about not having kids, welcome to your apocholypse. Japan is done because of this thinking. your job, your emotions built into your psyche from evolution, your most biological urges, your existence is to pass on your DNA, that means men in their most fulfilled state is being a father and women in their most fulfilled state is to be a mother... if you don't like sex, don't want to be a mother you are lacking evolutionarily. everyone can come up with these reasons, but in the end, you will end humanity if you don't have kids
Most fulfilled is to be a mother? Get outta here with that traditionalist mindset. The entirety of human progression proves that that is NOT true, otherwise we would be the exact same society we were 100 years ago.
@@onions831 the entirety of biology proves me right. where did you come from, a factory? no children no future as Japan is experiencing, and if you believe in evolution, you are the result of endless generations of parents who were more motivated to have kids than their compatriots, thus your emotional drives are fundamentally about raising your kids. what you are experiencing is either genetic decay or mental health issue
This Mieko sounds a bit too cynical for me. Can't really list all the bad things and say you can avoid them by not doing them, as a valid argument. Just sounds like a mentally weak rational, independent of whether you want to have a kid or not. I'll still try to give the book a chance if I get a hold of it.
Thank you all so much for watching but mostly for all the thoughtful comments!
I do want to add that what I read were only two pages of the entire book. This part was just one perspective of one character. The book is so much more so if you’re interested and have the time of course I encourage you to read the entire book. Again thank you for watching ❤
I haven’t wanted children since my first period. I knew pregnancy was never for me because I do not want to be pregnant. I don’t want to “know my child.” I know my own child, she lives inside of me and I nurture her daily. I don’t need to create another life to satisfy my own.
Beautifully stated 👏
more likely its that you are still a child who hasnt matured at all try growing up a little and youll realize being a mother isnt as selfish as youve been lead to believe
perfectly said, these are my thoughts exactly
@@Givebackthescarf lmao get over yourself I didn't say she had to have children I didn't say god told us to have children and I'm not implying that every mother is happy to be one people can do what they want pls go touch some grass ;)
@@Givebackthescarf seeing as think and I quote "we are more alone than we like to consider" I think the problem is you just don't have any friends and you should try talking to someone irl instead of crying on the Internet
I saw my mom rolling cigarettes coming home from school. She was raising four kids on her own while finishing her PH.D. Dad walked out and Mom refused to let him come back because of his alcoholism. That image of seeing my mom rolling cigarettes stressed out never left me. And I never wanted to go through what she went through. It really questioned why I would want to have a child. Cute, curiosity, have a family of my own, a mini-me, etc. I am 5 years into my relationship with my fiancée and we are both on the fence. Inflation makes everything more expensive, salaries are not rising, we work harder to have less, and then be burdened with all the costs of raising a child... the image of my mom pops into my mind. People tell me I want an easy life or that I am lazy or selfish or something else meant to guilt trip me. Maybe they are right. Or maybe I am just to in love with the idea of being free. Interesting book. I'll give it a read.
How actually dare people telling other people that they should not want an easy life, thus a hard life?
please stay away from this people who called you lazy and selfish
As a wife and mother, I would tell you to seriously consider all the things that could go wrong. For example: You could have a child with a disability autism, ocd, adhd, schizophrenia or a physical illness (there is a climbing toll of mothers in every age group facing this and we don’t yet know what is causing such an increase). Having a child could drive a wedge between you and your partner (couples are most at risk of separation after they have a child) , your partner could pass away, your child could face a series of difficulties in life that make them depressed or anxious, there is no guarantee that your child will be successful, they could be dependent on you for much longer than 18 years, etc etc
@@Redemption-ou7lj And all of that can be handled and there can still be hapiness.
It is the fault of society for not supporting mothers. I find it hilarious when men complain about low birth rates, so oblivious to women’s actual needs. Most women want to have kids, it’s our evolutionary drive. It need to be valued monetarily by society.
I've been antinatalist my whole life and didn't know it until I was 27.
Those reasons she gives in the book about the selfish reasons people have children are spot on.
No one ever has a child for the sake of the child itself.
Having a child is a risk
It’s not true at all that people don’t have children for no reason at all. Off the top of my head: lust and /or loving the person you conceive the child with. Blind lust can make people do strange things, like risk having children, because the power of it is so strong. This is usually, if not always, against their better judgement. Whole religions are made to punish people usually women who have children out of wedlock, sometimes even today women can get the death penalty for this if she is married to someone else. Yes of course people shouldn’t be having children under these circumstances but my argument is not about that. I am showing you that people not only have children for the sake of it or with nothing to gain, but they also conceive and have children with someone even knowing they might lose everything in doing so. In other words the direct opposite to what you said. In fact I’m glad I replied to this comment as it has cemented in my mind that antinatalists are just living in a different world on a parallel universe , where people only go about doing things for selfish reasons. That’s fine for you and that’s probably why the paths of people who have children for reasons you can’t understand never cross yours, and visa versa, except maybe randomly on the internet from time to time
I had awful parents and it made me think that children have a right to not be born. I never heard that expressed anywhere else before now.
So true.. so true so true
Awful people seldom realize just how awful they are. Often, they see themselves as *wonderful* people.
"children have a right not to be born"?? I mean, I also think it's cruel to bring a child into this world knowing that they will suffer instead of being loved. I also think that many people become parents who are not up to the task - some because they continue to make bad choices, and some because they really don't have the means.
Still... Once a person has the gift of life, they must act. You must act.
(And don't take that last paragraph the wrong way. I believe a woman's right to choose up to the viability point of a fetus is more important than the life of said fetus)
That doesn't make much sense, since a nonexistent entity cannot have rights.
Oh BOY I have had this conversation with many and found myself staring at dumbfounded and confounded faces. Wanting a baby is indeed the most selfish human act. SO glad to see someone else observe this.
I've been thinking this way for decades now. Even though I've gotten through a lot of my childhood issues, those same issues made me see how it is actually kind of an act of insanity to bring kids into the universe, and that's IF you've got all the things required to bring them up well. Now I'm not saying that act of insanity is inherently 'bad'. It's just the version of crazy in the sense that you're having a LOT of faith that the world will be good to that child. However, if you don't have all those things put together, having kids is either robotic or narcissistic. And when you look around at the world you really do see all too many people having kids either for NO reason, or having them to satisfy their own dreams (narcissism).
I'm sure that I don't want to have kids, but very rarely (especially late at night), I get this 'what if' urge to imagine how it would be to open myself to the possibility of motherhood. But whe I really think about why I'm having this thought it always comes back to loneliness. I don't want to find myself alone one day down the line, and having someone who is obligated to be with me at least until a certain day and then having this unspoken responsibility to at least check if I'm alive later was the best solution my subconscious came up with.
And I felt horrible and selfish for it.
I honestly don't understand how ppl who bash childless women say they are selfish when there's nothing more selfish that bringing a whole ass life into this world with the sole purpose of keeping you company. Get a pet.
@@sparingharbor2600 there’s no reason not to give to children already here though. Why create new life?
@@sparingharbor2600 where were you going with that? you equated kids/lives to physical, material objects and just proved that having kids is a selfish, narcissistic, self-serving, God-complex ownership thing and not the altruistic mission people try to make it out to be.
@@alisharo58 metaphors can be anything that describes a similar situation. You said there’s an over abundance of kids, y have kids… I said there’s an over abundance of everything that won’t changes the fact that we’d still want to have and create our own space and family. Also sounds like you have a lot of trauma and scars. It might be news to you, but normally parents don’t have a god complex or a narcissistic desire satisfied by children. You should get help for your scars but in general all animals have children … they don’t do it out of selfish, narcissistic, self serving, god complex… it’s the opposite… having children often put the child and their priorities over urs so it’s self sacrificing … parents would often jump infront of a car to protect their child.. seen instances of a parent falling and hitting their head because they were lifting the baby up so the baby won’t be hurt… in fact selfish are the ones who say “what I make is for me and I don’t want to share or give it to anyone.” Seen a lot in modern day women who say I make my own money I don’t want to share it with a man… when men shared resources for millennia. Narcissistic.. can be anyone… there’s no research that shows more narcissists are parents than non parents… that sounds like it’s just a personal experience. Plz get help for that. I’ve seen a lot of narcissistic single ppl who think they r too good for a partner. Self serving.. in a way everyone is to an extent, but a parent raises the child so they can go out into the world and create and live their lives. Most parents derived happiness from seeing their children happy… if that’s self serving then any type of good deed or donation that makes you feel happy and content is self serving. Most parents do not come at the children with a god complex.. the intent of having children for most parents has not a single thing to do with a god complex. Parents-children don’t have god to devotee relationships. Parents don’t treat their children as if they r beneath them… but as their own eyes… they safe guard, love, cherish and protect the children… parents truly are the gods that u can actually see. No parent is perfect … there’s no handbook or guide.. but every parent is putting every ounce of their being into raising their kids and to one day see them happy and doing well for themselves. It’s a different type of a selfless happiness they derive from it. Everything you described are more of modern day child hating self important narcissistic, holier than thou, people characteristics… whom still logically try to frame it as a service to the world when it’s just to avoid the responsibilities and sacrifices it takes and have it all to themselves because they can’t see beyond themselves.
@@sparingharbor2600 "we’d still want to have and create our own space and family." I'm literally just saying you can accomplish this without creating new life. families can be made with children who are already here and who are without guardians, and you can accomplish making a family without sharing DNA with them. You're still not proving your point.
My point is that many adults don't feel their children are their own unless there's been vertical gene transfer (i.e. the child is their direct off-spring), and that mentality contributes to the desire to create more lives when there are plenty of babies/children here that you can rear as your own. What's the difference between a family made with biological children vs. adopted children? Nothing, just that you can preserve your family traits with the former, and thus why that's narcissistic. I've seen people say that people who have adopted children aren't "real" parents. So again... creating children is inherently selfish because it's fueled by wanting genetic-based ownership over the child.
If you thought your metaphor was a good one (it wasn't though), why'd you delete it? If you could repost it, I'd appreciate it because I want to use it as an example for others. Also, don't make inferences about my life because of my philosophical stance, that's an ad hominem defense and literally just weakens your argument even more.
I'm child free, and i can say if you are on the fence, don't have kids. There is a reason you're hesitant. You might not know it yet or be aware of what is causing that hesitation, but it's there for a reason. Listen to it.
I did, and it became clear much later. Had i had a kid, they would be old enough to be really hurt by my husband's lack of empathy and care.
I'm so happy i never had a kid, it's one less person in the world having to suffer from attachment issues, uncertainty, and all the rest of the horrors of the world.
Deep. I’ve heard parents say the same, unless the desire is unfaltering in you to be a parent, better to err of the side of caution than to convince yourself to become a parent.
I recently had a pregnancy scare and since then, I’ve never been more sure of wanting to be a mom. I thought I wanted to be childfree, it was just my fear of using my child to fulfill my needs like my parents did; like so many parents do. Then my therapist and I went over my journaling, and she said “you only ever talk about what you want to give them.”
im sure you would be a great mother one day because you think about these things your observant of your own behaviour and others like your parents and that will really come in handy if/when you want to start a family because we need more people like you ;) because overthinking is not a bad thing!
I read Breast and Eggs last year and loved it! I know you said you prefer the "egg" part, but I actually find it really hard to choose which side I liked better. They both raised such interesting questions for women.
I've felt this way for a long time. I understand that although there's no way to know how much suffering a child will have to experience, life is still full of so much beauty and so much to be grateful for. but, at the very least, I hope this conversation about how no one chooses to be born truly makes people stop and consider their real motivations behind wanting to bring new people into the world, *and* what type of life they can realistically provide their children. I think even if people disagree with a lot of this sentiment and think it's too nihilistic or what have you, it's undeniable that there's a staggering lack of self awareness among parents/potential parents regarding why they want children, or if they're fit to be parents, which hurts everyone.
we live in an increasingly difficult/scary world, and attaining a properly dignified life is harder with every year that passes. and my own opinion is that just bc you want something, doesn't mean you should have it, especially when it inextricably involves someone else's entire life. it's okay to make "selfish" choices, but (the way I see it) having a child is unique. if you're not prepared to put in an ungodly amount of effort to unconditionally love , support, and show kindness to your child no matter what, treat them as a human and not an object, and hold urself accountable for where you need to do better, then parenthood is not for you. imo, parenthood is not for most people. I think understanding the inherent selfishness in having children has the potential to foster better self awareness and preparedness in people who still decide to become parents.
I have my own additional unpopular opinions on this subject, but I am glad to see it being discussed more among ppl who are on the fence. Life is hard, and creating life can be so easy, even accidental. Imo this means there must be a huge level of care taken whenever possible when it comes to bringing new life into the world.
Agreed. Too many parents focus on only the baby phase, think 18 is the age maturation when it’s not even close, assume the person their child will be, etc. I’ve heard people say it needs to be mandated for potential parents take a child development psychology class and I really agree. I still find having children to be selfish no matter what, but if a parent knows exactly what they’re doing and are committing to always centering their lives around raising the child as best as humanly possible then at least that would be a great improvement.
i'm definitely happy to be child free. every now and then i do imagine what it would be like to be able to help someone become their best possible self but I think for me that just means i'm going to look into mentorship or something along those lines once i've got all my ducks in a row.
Very important subject. I´d recommend Tomas Ligotti' s "Conspiracy against the human race" where the author asks the question: Is life ok? (spoiler: his answer is no).
Thank you for this!
Haha Thanks I’ll put it on my list!
I think it is smart to think about what it means being a parent and kids ,no matter in what story, are forced to do something that they don't want to. However, I feel if we all think like this, it probably the end of us.
such a calming vibe, I love that I discovered you! Thank you for the close reading, it gives us real insight into the writing and now I cannot wait to get to this book
Wow, such compelling perspective-- I'm adding this to my book list. You have such interesting readings!
Thank you!!
I love your book reviews! I appreciate the quality of your video as well.
Thank you so much for watching and this lovely comment❤️
Your reading voice is absolutely amazing!
Thank youuu!! ❤️
My friend and I talked about being childfree or not, for about 2-3 years. We both changed our mind many times through those years, but in the end we found our answer by having all these conversations :)
I already knew I am not a kids person, but It took years to realize I don't want kids. I will be cat mom and I am looking forward to that future
i've been trying to get my hands on an english version of this book for ages! for some reason amazon completely escaped my mind haha thank you
We infrequently contemplate the harms that await any new-born child-pain, disappointment, anxiety, grief, and death. For any given child we cannot predict what form these harms will take or how severe they will be, but we can be sure that at least some of them will occur. None of this befalls the nonexistent. Only existers suffer harm.
David Benatar
Thank you for such a beautiful video!
Thank you so much for watching ❤️
beautiful video! Thank you for sharing. I am on the fence as well. I am married now. Before we got married I made sure to be very clear about my husband about where I stood on having a baby: that there's a bigger chance that I will never be ready for it and that I don't want them to suffer -- and in the height of my depression (I still have it, but it's not so bad currently), I see the future as bleak. Will they be happy?
I'm happy to report that we are of the same mind about having kids or not.
I've been wanting to read this book since I heard about it years ago, but I want it in Japanese which make the book easily cost 4x as much.
I might either have to just fork up the money or cave and get it in English.
I, personally, have not wanted children since I was a teenager and started realizing the truth about motherhood and my own parents.
All you have to do is listen to women who have already gone through it... listen to them when they don't know you're listening, because as soon as they realize you (a childless female) are actually listening, they'll start whistling a completely different tune and suddenly be "pro-baby".
My mom always said she didn't want kids, but being raised in a fundamentalist christian cult (and they ALL are cults) when she got pregnant there was "no options" for her.
So, just like her mother before her... a shot gun wedding ensued leading to a miserable existence for everyone involved.
Most especially the children.
Listening to my mother blame us for her never being able to achieve her dreams.
Watching her descend into full on alcoholism to the point she straight up said if she had to choose between a bottle of Jack and the family, she'd choose Jack... and I absolutely don't blame her.
And then the gaslighting for all the traumas she directly caused by comparing her own childhood to ours (her father was an alcoholic, but a physically violent one. Whereas my mother is mostly a psychologically violent one, sometimes tipping into physical)
And my "martyr" father?
Always gaining the pity of others because his total lack of inaction made him seem like a victim.
In truth, if you are an adult and you even have the choice to act or not - inaction in itself is an action.
Inaction in itself is your choice.
And he chose to let it continue. He chose to do nothing about it.
In his male brain, he had achieved his manly goal and couldn't understand why it didn't work out (he was raised in the 50's, so the man's goal, of course, is to have a job and a wife who does literally everything else for you... she cooks, she cleans, she cleans the baby diapers, she does EVERYTHING else... you just go to work and come home and get praised for existing).
Yeah, my mother directly caused my trauma... but men like my father, the patriarchy, and the christo-cult indoctrination... those are what created the soil that these seeds of misery were sown in.
So, watching all this unfold before me, and then hearing about women whose teeth fell out, fetuses turned cancerous or calcified, got gestational diabetes, fetuses that died and rotted in the womb, and many many many other things (my aunt is a nurse).
Yeah.... I knew since age 12 that I wasn't jumping on that boat.
And I tried impressing upon my friends that babies aren't the "sparkles and joy" that they try to sell us, but they didn't listen.
And now we're in our 30's and I get to hear the same, or similar, stories from them.
What's extra funny about them though, is they're more inclined to divorce their partners... so now they're going through all that shit on only one income?
And yes, only the income matters... men, historically, don't do shit around the house and are in many ways just like having a child already. So, having them around doesn't help.. but their paychecks sure do.
IDGAF... they created this bullshit, if they don't like hearing about it then they should stand the fvkk up and fix it.
Highly doubt this article of a comment will ever be fully read, so I'll now release it into the void of the internet.
If you made it this far, regardless of your stance, kudos to you.
This is it. This is the best I’ve heard my stance articulated on the internet. Lots of parallels between what you experienced and my experience, and I just want to thank you for taking the time to put a voice behind a school of thought many of us are just too exhausted to articulate. Thank you.
I've never read a reasoning so close to how I feel why I don't want kids and my general dislike for society as it is.. just my family trauma and religion are a different flavour
I read it fully! Thank you for watching and sharing your story. I really appreciate it
Just started a book club this is the perfect book for us to start with I’m excited
That’s so much fun! Wondering what you’ll think!
My sister is currently pregnant with a boy and it is very interesting to see her perception of being the mother of a "man", she believes that she will spend less money than if it was a girl, that it will be less work than a girl, all due to the fact of being a son. But she doesn't even know her kid yet...What if it's someone with special needs? What if it's a trans child? What if it's someone with a difficult personality? Why are expectations about this new life designed before it even exists?
Boys can be very high energy. I didn't sleep in a single morning for the first 6 years with mine. Special interests can be costly. Just cuz boys might not wear dresses doesn't mean they won't have some costly hobbies or educational needs. No regrets though on my part, au contraire.
Yikes.
love the music and lighting!!
Thank you!! 😊
Ultimately, I think this question comes down to whether one believes life is worth living despite suffering. Although I have suffered in my life and I’m sure there will be painful times in the future, I have reached a point where I feel grateful to be alive and to be able to experience joy, love, and other good things. I think the nihilistic viewpoint of this book would have spoken to me more in my worst depressive/suicidal states, having survived my lowest points I can say that I am grateful I was born because the love and friendship I have experienced have made it all worth it. I now know I want to have children because I want to give the gift of life, and because I have so much love to give to my future kid(s). I want to share with them all the things that make me happy, that to me, have made life worth living.
In regards to what she said about a future child’s suffering/happiness, I think that while you can’t shield your children from all suffering, you can reduce how much suffering they’ll have in life by simply being a loving, supportive, attentive parent. You can be financially responsible so that you can pass something down to them. I have an interest in child development/psychology, and so I’ve learned that parents make the biggest impact on the trajectory of their child’s life. So I think instead of not having kids solely due to fear, people should educate themselves on how to be the best parent possible to give their kids the best life possible.
ur right that people need to put effort into preparing themselves to become good parents to do as much as they can to mitigate their child's suffering, but the fact is that most people don't, and won't. additionally, I'd like to say that I'm glad that u feel grateful for ur life now since things have gotten better for u, that's wonderful. that makes u very lucky, because the fact is not everyone can experience that. sometimes people's lives end one way or another, cut short before they get a chance to achieve real joy/experience real love. sometimes things are just so painful for so long that sticking it out simply doesn't feel worth it. and everyone has a different capacity for how much they can withstand. especially in today's world, it's so important to be realistic about how every year, every generation, achieving happiness/safety in life gets harder and harder for most ppl. considering if one believes life is worth living despite suffering is one piece of the puzzle, but it's not the whole thing. how much suffering are u predicting ur child might face, considering ur/their circumstances? are u willing to have faith that they'll be resilient enough to live thru that, and are u okay with forcing them to? I think these are also important questions here
Agreed that it comes down to choosing life in spite of suffering. Unfortunately however whatever you found that brings you joy may not be what the child finds joyous. They might find nothing brings them joy. We try our best to find our life rafts because we’re inclined to swim and survive rather than sink and self-delete, but not everyone finds their life raft. It’s a huge gamble to assume a person will find life (that you admittedly say is a struggle) worth living just because you did. There’s a lot of stories of children having utterly dedicated, loving parents and still growing up and choosing to throw their life away. I’m not judging what you’re saying, I’m just saying. I hear stories of children under 10 choosing to opt out and their worlds should technically be the most filled with a joyous mentality as they (likely) haven’t yet faced the real brunt of life. It’s really wild.
@@baby.yogurt It’s true that I can’t know exactly how much suffering my child would experience, but I would at least make an effort to let them suffer less than I did. I would give them a lot of support and love and hopefully that would make them resilient in the face of whatever they might face. I would try to have faith that they’d be ok, but you’re right that there’s no guarantee. The only thing i can say to that is that i’m grateful my parents made that bet on me, and i hope that my child would feel the same way eventually.
@@alisharo58 I agree that not everyone finds their life raft, but I would do my best to be a raft to my child until they find their own. And yeah, you are right that my child may not experience joy or find life worth living. I guess i just would do everything in my power to make them be ok, and believe in them the same way i’ve believed in myself~ that they would be able to make it through hardships.
@@et2223 I like your dedication and optimism, I genuinely just feel sad that people take these high risks when there’s a life at stake, but I genuinely do hope it works out for you and those future people.
looking forward to watching more book content on your channel! :)
It's true, if your child will never be born, it will never experience pain. But it will also never experience all the good things in life, hapiness, love etc. So if you think, this is a good argument, then you must give the negative feelings a higher weight. I think, this is part of our culture to see negative feelings as negtive in the first place. Why are they negative? They are just there, but we consinder them negative. We consider crying as negative - while actually it is a relieve. We think we should always be happy, but if you're always happy, you wouldn't know what happy actually means. Being alive is not just pain. It's being alive, and we can see this as bad or good or just realistic: both.
But this is not me, I actually see life as pain. xD Still I don't know if I want to be a mother or not. The answer should be no? But maybe there sill is hope that life is not just bad, even if it feels like it is. The older we get, the happier we became, statistically. So ...
I disagree... the outcome of happiness all revolves around the mentality of the parents.
You can tell how happy a kid is going to be by simply looking at their parents' perspective of things.
The generations before the Baby Boomers and Gen-Xers all wanted "better lives for their kids than they had"... and the Baby Boomers and Gen-Xers have the mentality of "Well I didn't get that, so why should you?"
Which lead to generations of kids who have less than their parents before them, are struggling in nearly every way imaginable, and are gaslighted about it by those very people who brought them into this world.
If you choose to have children, knowing full and well you won't support anything that improves their lives if it means they get something you don't (like a spoiled entitled toddler), then you know full well you're going to have miserable children.
And I'll press even further that if you chose to have children simply because you were told you should and never questioned the indoctrination you were raised in... the likelihood of your children being miserable goes up considerably.
You know, the guaranteed absence of suffering seems better than the possibility of good things, at least to me. Especially if you consider that it's impossible for someone to never experience anything negative during their lifetime.
There are other ways of giving children a happy life than bringing more and more of them into the world.
What is considered negative or positive is absolutely dependent on culture and worldview, but I would say that most people can agree on what would be considered unbearable (if we ignore religious beliefs).
This is so true, reality isn't fully cynical or optimistic. Whatever outcome you daydream is just a projection of your own capacities.
@@Othique Wow, your take is.. bizarre. You think life is getting harder because of apathy among parents? Really? Look, life is getting harder because we elect idiots into office. We spend, spend, spend, all the while accomplishing nothing but enriching the rich and making the poor poorer through higher taxes and inflation.
Your aesthetic, your couch, your articulate analysis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nonexistence never hurt anyone. Existence hurts everyone.
Thomas Ligotti
I'm so glad I found your channel.
Grea recommendation and observations!! I'll look for her books right away!!! Thanx!!!
Amazing video
This is very real. Im going to buy this book. Its a perspective that most ppl don't consider, but should.
i read this book recently and the conversation natsu has with yuriko stayed with me. although the two of them come from two different experiences both of them somehow helped each other fill the gaps in each others experiences. i could not by the end of the book disagree with either of them. personally, natsu saying she wants to know this child of hers and yuriko saying why to wake up these sleeping children, when you know they cannot become like you. somehow it explained a lot of emotions about womanhood and motherhood to me as if someone had really understood me
I felt the exact same way!
I just want to say your thumbnail is beautiful ❤
Thank you so much! ❤
Wow! Thank you!
Currently reading “Olive” by Emma Gannon and now this video pops up. I think the universe is tryna tell me something 😭
Great analysis, gotta check out this book! Subscribing :)
"All human actions are nothing more than attempts to heal the mistake of their existence."
Abdullah al-Qasemi
Also: Whenever I reflect, my reflecting upon what I suffer only rouses me to blame him that begot me. And I gave peace to my children, for they are in the bliss of nonexistence which surpasses all the pleasures of this world. Had they come to life, they would have endured a misery casting them to destruction in trackless wildernesses."
hi i love this video so much.
Thank you so much! ❤️
I was asking myself about bringing a child into this messed up world, talking to a childless guy. And he shook me telling me "what if them come to make a change, make a difference". Life is different with her today and I'm trying to fulfill whatever potential she has as far as she wants to take it.
People always think “what if the child can provide for us one day?” meanwhile placing the child in a world that doesn’t provide for them (the child). It’s very parasitic.
Thank you! Recently subbed.
Appreciate it❤️
I've thought on and off about having kids through my 20s and 30s, but it wasn't until I asked my mom why she became a mother that I realised it wasn't for me. She said it was her life goal to be a mother, and she is happy she fulfilled her goal. And it was so out of left field for my mind. Like I would NEVER have that has a life goal, and that's when I realised that it felt to me like an obligation or social burden.
That said, I do think there needs to be way more support for parents. Kids do need to be born to continue the species (especially with drastically falling birth rates), so we should all be investing time and money in ensuring children are born into enough resources to healthily raise them. We need free nurseries/childcare, baby boxes, sufficient parental leave for all parents, food and clothing, at a minimum. I think middle schoolers should also have to take parenting and general caring classes in school so they understand the responsibilities and costs of being a parent. And I also think we should have a 4 day work week and UBI so that parents can truly invest sufficient time in helping their kids grow up.
Recently I realized that even if I'm not planning on having kids right now (financial issues, I didn't get my independence yet) it's a matter I can't stop thinking about. I always thought having children is one of the most selfish decisions that, ironically, turns your life in a series of selfless acts. It's like life makes you compensate the decision you've made.
I'm on the fence too, and I feel if I don't have children I don't have hope in life, so I realize it's all about me, again.
On the other hand, I can see millenials are more on the not wanting kids part, so I don't know if it's a generational thing. In my case, I've always struggled to have financial freedom and following my own path, and I feel I'd lose it with a child depending on me.
It does not compensate for the child, because they are the ones suffering the most because of the selfish decision of their parents.
“It's like life makes you compensate the decision you've made.” I’ve never heard it phrased that way, I like it.
@@alisharo58 it does not compensate anything for the child. They will have to live with the selfish bet their parents made on their lives.
@@ihcf I agree. The child will always suffer the brunt of the decision, but I just feel OP is saying that a real (I.e, involved) parent also suffers it with them , one way or another. parents don’t realize that. Having kids is a lose-lose situation if the child turns out to be dissatisfied with life. I’ve heard stories of parents lives falling apart (divorce, financial ruin, their own mental health collapsing, etc) due to witnessing their child’s suffering.
thank you
it is important to understand that a valid argument is not necessarily a good argument. The antinatalist perspective can be internally consistent, but that does not mean that it is the only truth. It is not "wrong" to have a baby because suffering is inevitable in life. If you personally do not think that it is worth it then that is perfectly fine. Do not have children. But others feel that the suffering of existence is worth it.
I am someone who has suffered tremendously in life and still do. Just about every kind of pain and terror that a person can experience I have. Yes I wanted to have a child for many reasons, some of which you mentioned in the video so I wont go into an exhaustive list. But when addressing the issue of suffering, for me, it comes down to the dichotomy between love and suffering. This theme is found time and again in spiritual traditions for a reason. With existence suffering is inevitable, but love makes it worthwhile. There are different kind of love. they all are beautiful and some can even bring about their own suffering especially passionate love, but what im really talking about is agape love. This is something that not everyone experiences. Some people have it naturally, but it can also be taught. People, like me who experience it know that the world would be a better place if more people knew it. It does not scrub suffering out of existence but it certainly makes it worth it.
This universe created life. We are here to experience it for some reason, or perhaps by natural happenstance, it doesn't ultimately matter. What is amazing about us though, is that we can do what no other matter can do. We can learn and know and love. We can choose to keep these amazing powers going, or give up on this incredibly rare and precious process called life -- in our case this highly aware human kind of life. Some of our suffering is self inflicted. My goal as a parent is to do my best to bring a life into the world and foster their growth into a person full of so much love that they feel the pains of existence are worth it. And hopefully SO full of love that it spills out a little hopefully it spreads a little and makes some corner of the world a little less horrible to exist within. If everyone had that goal in mind and worked hard at it life could be so much better. Never free from suffering, but clearly a better option that non existence.
That's true! I'm not spiritual, but that's also just logical.
Thank you for this!
@@SagidCarter😊
@@t.a.yeah. Thank you for saying this. For the record I was never spiritual or religious. In fact most of my life I was somewhat of a militant atheist. I did however always have this deep feeling of awe and love for the universe. Eventually I realized that that feeling is the root of spirituality in a lot of people. It seems to me that most people have this deep sense within them. How they express it or process it in their life is personal for everyone. Scientists tend to express it by studying nature and trying to gain a deeper objective understanding of it. Religious people map these feelings onto allegories and Any number of spiritual being Or meaning. I find so much truth within the themes of spiritual traditions even though I Don't Believe in the greater religion that surrounds it. I am not in any way shape or form a Christian but I understand the meaning behind the story of Jesus's crucifixion. It is an allegory for just what I was talking about the dachotomy of love and suffering. This is the Christian's way of expressing this idea. God wanted to show his love for humanity and so decided to suffer in the greatest way possible. Create a child who would suffer one of the most gruesome possible deaths To accept punishment for all the sins of man. Therefore according to their tradition Freeman from the guilt of their sins as long as they accept this gift from jesus.
It's a bit of a gas light as I see it.And as someone who does not understand these deeper meanings it definitely just seems like a snuff story. On the surface it always seemed ridiculous to me how can you show love by murdering your son. Nonetheless that deeper meaning is what they are expressing through that story. That's just one example.
One last point to make is that I used to be far more judgmental of people who had beliefs that I did not. Having a child Introduced love into my heart on a level that I never knew was possible and through this relationship with my grown far more understanding of people with differences. Parenting is not easy and it has also introduced other hardships into my life. But the lessons learned and the love experienced is so worth it for me. Because of my child I feel more capable of making not only my life better but the lives of others better.
For this reason I decided not to have children. It's called antinatalism. I recommend The Trouble with Being Born by Emil Cioran and Better Never to Have Been by David Benatar for deeper dive. Also, I will read this book! Thank you for sharing! 😊❤️
The huge missing component from this conversation is trauma. People arrive at the conclusion that life is just pain and suffering and it's better not to exist because of trauma they have been through. And on the other side trauma and toxic cultures cause people to be completely unfit to be parents, and become parents for selfish reasons. In my ideal world nobody would have a child unless they first heal their own trauma, establish a secure and stable living environment without any abusers and plenty of finances in a safe part of the world, and make it their number one priority to be extremely conscious and mindful as a parent and also ideally at least one parent able to stay home with the child during developmental years. We are way too flippant with children's lives. As far as whether or not to have kids I think beyond these concerns we need to think about the state of the planet and the ethics. Are we bringing another human into the world to eat animal products causing more unnecessarily violence, for example? And all of the resources the child will use throughout their lifetime. With all those considerations I still believe people who check all the boxes I've mentioned and who are doing the right thing in this world have every right to have hopefully not more than two children. And to not do it for any selfish reason. People in the stop having kids movement say that every reason is a selfish reason. Because I have healed my trauma with magic mushroom trips I've come to see that life is extremely beautiful and it is simply trauma, violence, and unethical systems that cause pain and suffering but it is not an automatic thing that needs to exist in life. I'm contending with it all as a 27-year-old with a boyfriend who is certain he wants to have a kid.
To add on I don't believe you are gambling with a life if you provide a safe loving home without any abuse or trauma and meet your child's needs and parent extremely consciously and mindfully. Unless you have a crippling health concern in your genetics, I guess that would be the only way you would really be gambling. But that's also getting into the mindset of living in fear which is no way to live a happy life.
The unethical systems have been in place for centuries though, no? Still sounds like you’re saying it’s not possible to create life without it being selfish and to the child’s detriment. I also wonder what it means that many people don’t have your revelation about the disease of the system without mind-altering drugs (I have nothing against drugs/substances, but I do wish our brains didn’t need them to wake up). I hope humanity does evolve to see the way to produce a more ethical, sustainable world (naturally and without drugs), but it won’t be until much further into the future, I feel.
My take:
Sure, if someone has a kid, they have no way to know if in the future that kid would have wanted to be born. But, one also does not know if that kid would decline to be born; it goes either way. Either way there is the risk of the outcome being something that this hypothetical kid wouldnt have wanted.
If a kid is born and regrets it later, this is something that can be changed (there is the possibility of them changing their mind and being glad they were born)
If a kid isn’t born but would’ve wanted to be born if they were, this most certainly can not be changed. Now ik that there isn’t really a kid to do the experiencing here, but I dont think this means it doesnt matter; if I go to someone and say “I am going to send you into oblivion, but dont worry, you wont feel harmed while youre in oblivion since you wont feel anything”, I doubt they will find comfort in this.
To exist is to experience suffering. Something that never exists never suffers.
@@facthunt2facthunt245 I already answered that ( your point about not experiencing suffering by never existing) in my comment, and I strongly disagree with this idea of reducing existence to suffering.
New subscriber great review :)
Thank you so much and welcome!
Funny how so many like this.
I didn’t think I wanted children because I didn’t think I had good parenting skills.
Then I had my children-now adults-who tell me they think they turned out fine so I did better than I thought.
What you don’t discuss is the absolute love you share with your children.
If you haven’t experienced it you really don’t know.
Life is risky-challenges and difficult feelings are just part of the experience
And so is love, joy healthy relationships etc
Thank you for your comment! I agree with what you said. I think I decided to only focus on this part and subject of the book is because it isn’t talked about very often. Everyone always talks about the joy and upside of having children. Which I don’t get me wrong I’ve seen as well. Grew up with tons of cousins and babies in a warm family. But this book and this comment section made me realize that isn’t the case for everyone. As someone who’s thinking about having kids I thought it was worth is to share. Thank you for watching I really appreciate it 💕
I had exact same thoughts, funny how I never read the book
If no one who has ever existed ever "asked" to be born, then that is not really a realistic aspect to consider when you're wondering whether or not you should have kids. Perhaps you can say it's not fair, but that's how you got here, that's how I got here, that's how every human being got here. Life is full of choices, yes, but it's mostly NOT full of choices. You don't get to choose to be born, you don't get to choose to be human, you don't get to choose to need food and water, you don't get to choose your family, you don't get to choose your place of birth, you don't get to choose the teachers you have growing up, you don't even get to choose your likes and dislikes on some level. Does that mean that every area of life where you didn't get to make a choice is unfair? Maybe, and this is what I believe, that's just life? It's not about fair or not fair. Choice is not a guarantee. In fact, things you get to choose are outnumbered by the things you DON'T get to choose. That doesn't lead me to say, "Life is unfair, suck it up." It makes me realize that that's just how life IS. It's not fair or unfair, it just is. And it also makes the limited things we DO get to choose all the sweeter. And choosing whether or not to have kids is YOUR choice. Just like it was your parents' choice. Just like it will be your future child's choice. Your child may not get to choose to be born, just like you didn't get to choose to be born, but they get to have the equal choice that you had, and your parents had, and their parents had, etc., whether or not to have kids. I see that as fundamentally fair in the end.
As for choosing not to have kids to protect them from the pain of reality... I couldn't help but think about Anne of Green Gables. The characters in Breasts and Eggs seem to be quite nihilistic about life. But Anne, an orphan who was mistreated and lonely for years in her early childhood, had an outlook on life that made her thankful for all the small beauties the world had to offer. She made people's lives better with that outlook, people who didn't even have as hard of a life as she did but were still grumpy most of the time. Yes, life is full of pain. But life is also full of beauty and pleasure. Isn't it presumptuous of you to decide that your potential child would rather be spared the pain of reality? What if you are actually denying your potential child the pleasure of reality? There is no way for you to know whether that child will have enjoyed being born or not. And the truth is, the overwhelming majority of people, even those who have gone through the most hardship in life, prefer existence to non-existence.
I think I have a lot of beauty and pleasure to offer my future children. Just like the nihilist who wants to take their chances sparing a future child from the pain of reality, I'm going to take my chances offering a future child the joy of reality.
That's true and beautiful.
Especially the part with "Isn't it presumptuous of you ..."
That last line hit! Thank you for this comment
@@t.a.yeah. I'm glad you liked it!
@@SagidCarter You're welcome! Don't get me wrong, I appreciated learning about that different perspective from the book and your thoughts on it, but I thought I'd add my outlook too. :)
So glad i get to see both sides on the topic in the comment section ! Thank you
If someone is not willing to take care of a living child by adoption, that is a surefire sign of telling you that you are not fit to be a parent either way
At the risk of being both a weeb and a critic of a novel i haven't read, i feel like i should weigh in on the author's use of the word selfish.
In Japan and other East Asian countries, people are taught from a young age to think about the collective first and themselves second. Finding a partner when people are sometimes pressured to work so hard they die from stress-induced suicide does not sound like a healthy or sustainable social environment, to say nothing of the challenges of having kids too.
Second, there are two levels of selfish a person can have: ones where they get what they want through free and fair exchange and one where they take more than they give. While the latter is unsustainable of everything does it for too long, the former is arguably fair and just (and damn hard to get right).
I think people should know that having kids automaticly means that the kid will be traumatized. Not necessarily because you want to traumatize them, but because our own life, society and this day and age is not good for being alive. Also, your kids are basicly your prisoners, if you think about it. But staying with the prospective parents, you will mess up, you will ruin your child's life. The whole thing is rigged against you. So knowing this, if you actually decide to have kids, be a more considerate jailer. Good luck out there!
Not to be born is undoubtedly the best plan of all. Unfortunately, it is within no one's reach.
Emile M. Cioran
I've read Near Death Experiences where people who passed over to the other side and then came back to life said that many souls choose to come to Earth, and they even choose to be born to challenging parents / family dynamics.
I love this!
Yeah as someone raised on this, its downright awful and cruel. Any sort of critique, upset or yknow, general childishness I showed, was punished and I was told I deserved it because "I chose" to be born to them. Its an extremely insidious thing to justify doing horrific things to your kids, and placing the blame back on them - cause they chose to be here right? I'd be willing to bet anyone who says sh like that is just trying to shift blame from being awful to their children, and trying to placate their feelings of guilt by making up a narrative.
@@onions831 so sorry you dealt with that. as someone who’s reading books that state ideas similar to OP’s comment, I’m hesitant to fully accept the ideas and your comment provides me with another reason why I should be suspicious of those ideas.
Im so curious to know if the author is an anti natalist. Totally adding this to my reading list
Looking forward to hear what you think about the book! The author has a son herself so I don’t think so but of course that doesn’t necessarily mean anything!
children are a luxury and should be treated as such and more people shouldn't than should be parents. I live in poor conditions. I almost guarantee all the poor women in this building with me regret having their child or children. Most of these women dont even treat these children like children, its sad. When youre poor a child is such a crazy money sink and youre locked to it for 18 if not more years. How some women dont think about this is insane to me. As a kid I was reckless a few times but as an adult bro im not playing with that baby shi. Im wrapping my shi up, taking it slow. Hell I'd even get a vasectomy but thats a conversation for a later date xdd. I don't even mind children. I don't understand people who hate children yes they are annoying but they are brilliant little people.
You are foolish children are seen as an expense because of western society the whole concept of children is very modern.
We live in a time of climate collapse, environmental collapse, ecological collapse. Women who are giving birth now are condemning their child to a life made miserable by this rapidly developing collapse. A child born now will see the worst of this catastrophe by the time they reach middle age. I wouldn't wish this fate on anybody, not least a child whom I love. It's going to be awful. Huge waves of starving refugees. Desperate wars fought over declining resources, not the least of which would be water. The economy will also collapse as impoverished consumers can no longer buy things. Impoverished people will turn to crime just to survive. Dystopia just over the horizon. Don't inflict it on an innocent child.
The basic facts that your child has to work for years in a capitalistic world for basic needs (unless you’re a 1% and can afford to retire them at birth) and then die one day, possibly slowly and/or painfully … the fact that these facts don’t deter more people from having kids is utterly mind boggling to me and proof than societal brainwashing/mind control is real.
In accordance with my conception of life, I have chosen not to bring children into the world. A coin is examined, and only after careful deliberation, given to a beggar, whereas a child is flung out into the cosmic brutality without hesitation.
Peter Wessel Zapffe
I think you should really look into the antinatalism philosophy and movement as it definitely seems quite related to the themes you just mentioned.
I’ve never heard of that term until I read all the comments! Definitely gonna look into it! Thank you
only problem is that antinatalism doesn't last very long for obvious reasons 🤣🤣
Let me guess. All the people claiming that wanting a child is selfish still seek out the relationships. Still seek out the love making. But that final piece of the relationship puzzle to raise another life is the selfish aspect to ignore.
We spend our whole lives consuming. We consume other's energy. Consume meat. Every aspect of our survival and even leisure is spent consuming something.
Creating a child and raising it is the most selfless thing we do. It is the only time we give of ourselves expecting little to nothing back. We literally sacrifice our lives to save our young. But we call making children selfish. Sure.....People go to war and die protecting their kids. Parents jump in front of bears, trains, cars and die saving, not only their kids, but other people's kids.
If having children is selfish, then all other aspects of life are even more selfish.
Completely understand where you’re coming from but I think when people talk about having children being selfish is because you can’t ask the child if they even want to be born. The only reason people have children is because they want to. And let’s not forget that A LOT of children are born in poverty, misery, with parents who don’t know how or don’t want to raise their kids. In cases like that I understand that people see having kids as a selfish act because you brought a human being into a world just to suffer if we’re really honest. I’ve actually met people who wish they weren’t born. I think it’s really good that more and more people really think about what it means to bring a life into the world and if they are able to give their kid the life they deserve.
@@SagidCarter Imm 44 years old. Traveled across the world. I have never met a person who legitimately wished they did not live. The few people who do think like this barely live past 10 years old. An adult stating that they wish they did not exist are essentially lying. Give them a gun and tell them they can end it now, a d you will see that 99% will not. That 1% that do are in a state of hopelessness based on circumastance.
The truth is that envionmental circumstance and hopelessness make people wish for suicide. But you will never neet a person perfectly happy in life wishing they didnt exist. This whole concept is based on circumstances or hardships. Yet even with hardships 99% of people want the chance to thrive. So we are going to stop creating children during hardship just because 1% or less will hate living? That is madness.
What about these people who dont apprecate the chance to live and thrive? Are they not selfish also for their kack of appreciation to participate in the cycle of life?
Creating the next generation of life is the fundamental basic function of any living being. From a virus to an elephant, the one two jobs a living creature has is to thrive and to procreate. A coyote in a famine filled land isnt wondering if her pups will hate living in famine with wolves hunting it. She is thinking that she must survive and keep her genetic line going as long as possible. She isnt even actively thinking that, it is jusy ingrained in her being to function that way.
@@SagidCarter Also the trend i see is that the most anti-religious and nti-spiritual people are always the ones against creating or maintaining life. They act as if souls of the unborn exist and that they have will, and you can figure out that will. But talk to them about spirituality or religion and they call you a clown. But they are the ones saying that your mind could be born in the wrong body or that we shoukd consider if life wants to be born. As if we would know what personality resides in the eggs in womens overies.
This odd logic of trying to over-complicatedly rationalize the sterilization of hunans, restricting birth, and even promoting early death like they are doing in Canada is mostly in line with a sort of cultlike thinking. Because these concepts are not natural in human thinking. The acfions of humans do nkt mafch the concepts, because the overwhelming majority of humans live till they cant anymore and seek out the act of procreation, even when they dont.
The only way these concepts will make sense for me is if i see a social contagion of youth living perfectly happy lives committing suicide enmass expressing a lack of desire to live. And a huge surge of people not seeking physical relationships with others, because they dont want kids at all. Similar to a movie from japan called "The Suicide Club". A movie about a group of jpop idols leading a secret society of people who hated being born and ulimately kill themselves wether their lives were good or not.
Otherwise at this time, we have everyones actions showing they are prolife /procreation, while their words speak of death.
@@Urrelles well let’s agree to disagree. But I really appreciate you watching the video and your comments!
@@SagidCarter Yeah it was a good book review.
Might i suggest you look up the "rat utopia experiments". It has a lot in correlation with the concepts listed in the book you reviewed. When under hardship the desire to procreate and thrive goes up. When under luxury, the desire to self destruct goes up.
I’m guessing Meiko has no children? That’s how she can write that.
I wonder why in Japan, with its long and deep Buddhist history, this woman can't see the spiritual
view of being human: that the person can realise the Infinite in themselves. Of course to a material girl, that makes no sense, and life is just a problem and full of pain, not an opportunity.
Yeah life is an opportunity, which means I can do as I please. That includes not reproducing.
Sure. but there are some talented and creative people out there whose contribution to the gene pool will be missed.@@Enriquez2222
@@Enriquez2222this makes you a selfish person, everyone has problems the truth is your problems are nothing compared to others you are blessed to be able to think this way.
Antinatalism 101
The anti natalist position that having a kid is immoral towards the kid and that it would be better off not being brought to existence is absolutely absurd. You can't have a moral position in relation to a non entity. It literally doesn't exist! No one is better off not being born because then they simply aren't anyone to be.
Also I just generally think life is worth living despite the inevitable pain and suffering. The good times outweigh the bad times and life is more beautiful than it is ugly, unless you are in a really impossible situation. Though I have a feeling people advocating that birth itself is immoral fundamentally disagree with this.
Peace and love
Peace and love back!
r/Anti-Natalism
Normally people who are against doing something natural have suffered deeply traumatizing experiences when they were young.
On my own I dont want them, my boyfriend wants them in future I want to make him happy I somehow wish I could do that without ever regretting it's a permanent choice.
Don’t do it for someone else.
period!@@bloodbuddy7
Your kids should have a mom that actually wants them. Please don't have children you don't want. It's so irresponsible.
Your relationship is for a season, not a lifetime. Enjoy it as it is now, but pleeease do not have kids to appease other people. As the woman, even if he wants to actively be a dad, most of the childcare will still be on you. Society will still put pressure on you to do most if not all of the care. Mothers are also unfairly paid *less* in the workplace since they’re expected to put more time into their kids than the workplace (it’s bullshit, but that’s reality). I could go on. You have to really want motherhood and accept and embrace the very hard challenges that come with it.
@@amandasmith3504A lot of women have children they didn’t want.
If you're going to avoid having children, do it for a reason that makes sense. This idea that it's somehow a violation to "force" someone to be born goes entirely against the whole point of being alive in the first place - to make more life. That's why living beings exist - to make more living beings. Bow out if you like, but don't tell yourself it's because you're doing the potential child a favor just by denying it a chance to live. (What makes you think it's so much better NOT to be born?)
This is a very sad book. I do agree with her because she was a baby once and grew up. She has lived life and has some points(from what was read in the video. I haven’t read this book myself) What we need to remember is babies grow up and it’s up to us as parents to raise them to the best of our ability. That means taking a real look in the mirror and fixing ourselves. That is where the pain starts. Before the world can get to a child it all starts with the parent. I can’t say we’ll be perfect mothers or even a perfect partner (if you want or have a partner during motherhood) and not everything is going to be perfect but what is wrong with that? Yes, you could say having a child is selfish but not having a child is also selfish because you’re still thinking about yourself and your experiences in life. Who’s to say your child will go through what you did? To me that phrase is used to parents who genuinely don’t care about their kids. Regardless, I encourage everyone to think about having kids before it’s too late (biological exist and we’re not made equal). If having a child isn’t for you then that’s ok. But if you want kids you have to work towards it. It’s scary and hard but it’s not impossible and it is rewarding.
I highly respect your opinion, I just personally believe being selfish alone is way better than being selfish with a baby who has to suffer the consequences
@@dr.k1012 I agree. If you’re going to put yourself first in EVERYTHING than you shouldn’t be a mother/parent. I feel like as you get older you get to have more and more liberty to do things again. Which is a sacrifice in itself that not a lot of people are willing to do but want kids. I definitely get where you’re coming from.
The way you are raised or later treated in the world can be harmful but that’s human life and the cycle of our existence😂 people have to have children😂 stop acting like it’s foolish to do so. Do it when you can afford it and you are happily married. Some don’t need children at all but y’all are acting like we should all just stop
Nah, it’s a personal choice. Feel free to breed just don’t expect a medal or special treatment for doing so
@Enriquez2222 yeah but they are acting like reproduction is a crime or act of violence 🤣 it has to happen its the cycle of life and she was going to until the book persuaded her not to
i think that already, we as women nowadays are not pressured to have kids as much as other generations, decades ago. So having this as a ‘hot’ topic that is perceived as something controversial is immature in my opinion.This is very personal and intimate, even SPIRITUAL matter that each person decides for themselves. And this subject matter, shouldnt be the one to virtue signal about ‘whats fair’.
No one could deny that having a child of your own is another way to evolve for you as a human being, to know yourself. And also mature even more, taking more responsibility. That book authors view is a bit absurd in my opinion because it exposes this womans (authors)spiritual immaturity to this subject. Her world view is very nihilistic… and she wants to spread it by writing a book :)
not wanting to have kids is maybe hiding behind subconcious fear of growing up themselves. Modern adult person want to be a kid forever, without responsibilies.. peter pan syndrome
im just expressing my opinion, if im a bit harsh in my words, pardon me…
this is serious subject matter :)
No I appreciate your opinion ! After all the author wasn’t holding back either.
There's a lot of people with Peter Pan syndrome who believe having a child will be the magic pill that can transform them into mature adult or at least make them feel like one. I think that's a lot more common than "I don't want a child because I'd have to grow up."
I don't think adults these days want to be kids forever. People are tired and miss simpler times. I think people are just more honest with themselves and realistic. Not everyone is meant to be a parent we know that now.
@@mayabythesea😂😂😂 people have more now than ever before but don't want to have kids the mondern world is basically designed for children not real adults
Well.. if we all stopped having babies, is that really doing good? Then there will be no more humans.
That's the point
maybe nature will step in somehow and make it less bad for women
Okay and we won’t be around to care 😂
Misandry and anti maternity are not solutions to humanity's problems. Too many educated and well off women aren't having children, and too many impoverished people are having too many.
I don´t see how this book has anything to do with misandry (granted, I haven´t read it). Also, no one is here for solutions to "save the world" anyway. Your second statement, however, can come off as biased and insulting since it seems to imply that there are people who deserve or should have children, and others who shouldn´t. I understand the stance of wanting children to grow up in a financially stable family, but telling poor people they´re not priviledged anough to have children is not it. In case I´ve misunderstood you I´m sorry.
It may not be the best thing for society, but it may be the best thing for the individual women concerned. And personally, I want to live in a world where my individual choices are respected, don't you?
Don't we all, but if too many individuals are choosing extinction, there's a societal problem.
@@emanym I don’t understand this need to preserve humanity. Perhaps we have become too maladaptive. If we go extinct nature will evolve a better species. Getting married young and having a child are my greatest regrets. I thought I was unique in this until I started connecting with women across the world who share the notion that motherhood is often a thankless, stressful, soul sucking, lonely, depressing, destructive path that takes your relationship, takes your health, takes your financial freedom, on and on. Of course mothers are often willing to sacrifice for their kids, but the end result is to watch your kids grow up to face the same brutality of this life: death, loss, stress, loneliness, fear, slaving away for a wage before they too return to the dirt. What sense does it make to continue this cycle
@@emanymone of the better things to come out of the internet is all the wives and mothers online telling younger women the truth. It’s too late for me, I’m 25 and bought into the false promise very early in life, but I am hopeful for the other young women who will get the message on time and opt out
Highly depressive arguments here. If you don't want kids fine. You don't need to justify the decision or make a cult out of the issue.
Not justifying anything. Just reading a few pages from a book that stuck with me. Nobody is making a cult. And like I said in the video I don’t know for sure if I want kids. This part of the book just gave me a perspective that I never thought/heard of which I find interesting and wanted to share.
Idk this is very a very cynical take on parenthood. I believe that on a soul level we all chose to be born. as someone who got pregnant before I planned to, I felt on my bones that this baby wanted to be here and that it was part of god's plan for me to steward her on earth. of course there are plenty of people having children that are not fit to be parents and cause a lot of suffering. But come on, let's follow this to its logical conclusion, what do you want, the government to get involved with who can or can not procreate? that's straight out of a dystopian novel. Do you want everyone to just give up, make themselves sterile and end the human race because we are just that horrible? to be anti-natalist is to be anti-human, straight up. Call me naive but I have hope our children can forge a better future. I consider our children to be a gift to the world.
Yeah, watch how this current generation blame the next for all the messed up issues that keep being passed back. The world doesn’t get better, just better at hiding it’s worst parts
if your taking advice from Japanese about not having kids, welcome to your apocholypse. Japan is done because of this thinking. your job, your emotions built into your psyche from evolution, your most biological urges, your existence is to pass on your DNA, that means men in their most fulfilled state is being a father and women in their most fulfilled state is to be a mother...
if you don't like sex, don't want to be a mother you are lacking evolutionarily. everyone can come up with these reasons, but in the end, you will end humanity if you don't have kids
Most fulfilled is to be a mother? Get outta here with that traditionalist mindset. The entirety of human progression proves that that is NOT true, otherwise we would be the exact same society we were 100 years ago.
@@onions831 the entirety of biology proves me right. where did you come from, a factory? no children no future as Japan is experiencing, and if you believe in evolution, you are the result of endless generations of parents who were more motivated to have kids than their compatriots, thus your emotional drives are fundamentally about raising your kids. what you are experiencing is either genetic decay or mental health issue
Men like you make women not want children because that all you see us as, tools. It’s disgusting
@@onions831then don’t have kids. 🤷♀️
@@Enriquez2222woman you are silly women could never be seen as tools you don't fix or build shit.😂😂😂
Because reproduction is one of maslows base level needs on the needs hierarchy….thinking this way is anti human.
No, sex is on the hierarchy, not reproduction. Not to mention how outdated Maslows is.
This Mieko sounds a bit too cynical for me. Can't really list all the bad things and say you can avoid them by not doing them, as a valid argument. Just sounds like a mentally weak rational, independent of whether you want to have a kid or not. I'll still try to give the book a chance if I get a hold of it.
Yes please read the book! It’s about A LOT more than I talked about. It was just that I couldn’t stop thinking about this particular part of the book.