Edit: This isn't my first video back. I posted a new review of Triad's Gold LCR last week but it apparently didn't land on everyone's feed. Check it out in the link below: ua-cam.com/video/gNKs0Dj2v5E/v-deo.html I'm trying a new idea out. An "off the top" discussion about new designs or other things that I find interesting as they come to the market. Not a review, just a discussion. Let me know if you guys like this kind of thing.
I hate to bring 10 elephants to trample one parade, but if discussion is what you seek, everybody loves to talk about sound. It is an endless discussion for or against, why you should or should not, and everybody with a keyboard has an opinion. Again, we're 100% with ya, but finding the others willing to talk about logically without getting emotionally tied and confrontational as in just every forum everywhere! Well good luck, but this UA-cam is as good a place as any. Cheers 🍻
Would be interesting if you could cover Alcons ribbons/ speakers especially as they are in the same pro market as Genelec. Here are a set in my studio - ua-cam.com/video/vB1oQhc-5Po/v-deo.html
@Douglas Blake I have. I just posted a Triad speaker review with full measurements last week. I think a lot of people somehow missed that. ua-cam.com/video/gNKs0Dj2v5E/v-deo.html
For us people that love audio and want to learn, this is great content; especially from manufacturers with reputable data. It also saves you the huge effort, but clearly this is limited but if there's more information like this i personally would love to see it. since we all know rarely do we get this much data outside of pro audio
I don't want to make this a thing with all speakers so I'll limit it to the ones that I find interesting and I'll try my best to be able to follow up with a real review. Unfortunately, in this case I think the speakers are just way too large for me to ever measure and I'm not really sure I see the point given their extreme price and the fact that Genelec has published their own data that is "enough" to help.
Nice to see you back Erin.Stay well and keep up the good work.Enjoy your content,especially when you dive deeper into the nuts and bolts of different designs and brands.
The reason the 5” drivers are slightly dome shaped is to keep the boundaries of the waveguide as smooth as possible. If there were deep geometric discontinuities, the on and off-axis response would suffer.
I'm making this [almost] exact speaker! And I'm hoping to take it to Dayton Audio speaker competition this year...just gotta finish the final cabinets! I was loosely copying the W371A...then added a 12" coaxial...but decided to not have the sloping back.. To me it looks like they are fixing all the design conflicts/ limitations of the W371A. For example, when trying to copy their design, it became clear that the cabinet volume of the W371A really isn't large enough. I couldn't find drivers like the ones they are using that could do what I wanted/ expected them to be doing within that cabinet volume! The front facing woofer on the W371A can't go low enough, atleast not without being pushed by DSP. The ported subwoofer section just doesn't play that low because box size and port length. On this new speaker, they chose an actual subwoofer driver in the front. This is important, because atleast in my interpretation of the design, that front driver needs to extend down to ~45hz. Down to 45hz allows them to use DSP tuning between all the low frequency drivers to get flat low frequency response. It is multiple subwoofers, without having a bunch of subwoofers placed around the room. In my case if I tune it using delays, little to no EQ is needed to get flat low frequency response. But it is worthy of noting that when I experimented with 4 subs that all play down to 30hz or below, I get a huge peak from 30-40hz that I have to aggressively EQ. But if 2 of the 4 low frequency drivers roll off by ~45hz, that peak disappeared. It may not be universally true, but I think it is interesting. I'm by no means an expert at speakers, but this design seems to be confirmation of the principles I've been pursuing for the last year. So pretty cool.
Hey, this is all good. I don't track all of these new things as often as I used to. Edit: I am sure these are very good speakers. They are also outside my budget. I too have heard the Danley during an outdoor demo. I was also impressed. They would have been more impressive indoors.
Always top notch video reviews. The only improvement I could think of is maybe a conclusion bookmark or final thoughts bookmark where you finalize or sum your thoughts of the product for when viewers may want to cheat and get the cliff notes version. This suggestion in no way discards your efforts. Much much appreciated! Keep on making these amazing videos 10/10.
Sooooo good to see you back, Erin. I much appreciate your honest approach to what happened and can only assure you a bright future. As a former audio-journalist on printed media - and having been through the same process as yours in my private life - I promise you that you get a lot of strength after walking through that path and process. Thanks for your honesty and great work on this site.
Good to have you back Erin. I wasn't surprised at the genelec's radiation pattern as their main focus is studio monitors. If I needed a monitor for a studio I'm sure that genelec would be at the top of my list. But for home audio use i probably would choose something with a wider radiation pattern. That said, I wouldn't say no to demo them in my listening room. 😁
They work perfectly as normal Stereo Setup for Music & fipm. A friend of mine have the 8341 with an Self Build Double Bass Array (minidsp etc.) and fully treated ceiling and it counts by far to one the best systems ive listen in the past 15 yrs of Hifi. I personally use Neumanns but you cant do anything wrong with these brands. Top Products with an awesome performance
The only true path to advancement in loudspeaker designs really does require active systems, with individual amplifiers and active electronic crossovers. Nice to see Genelec pushing that envelope. It makes me wonder when the high end home audio speaker guys will finally get the message. Passive speakers driven by single amplifiers are just a dead end.
Yep, I was a huge audio fan in my teenage days in late 70s. But I’m all about powered monitors these days. When you realize that you pick out a DAC and powered monitors and then patch in your source and you’re done.
They will NEVER get it. Big monoblocks, overpriced passive Floorstanders & zero room treatment & no Room Correction will always be the way for most people...but when they are lucky and believe its better, let them live their dream. I will never go back to passives again
Watching all the footage from the Munich show recently, one speaker that stood out to me in the “ultra high end world” was from a German company called “B&M” that make a pretty incredible line of active speakers.. Worth checking out, im almost sure there’s nothing else like it!
@@rahliE777 The Backes & Mueller Guy (Johannes Siegler) also the CEO of the german studio brand KSDigital - Active Monitors. So they combine a little bit both worlds. He did also podcasts with acousticians and is based in the studio world
Man it's great you're back. I follow some pc hw channels, and your technical no bullshit approach is kinda similar to what Gamers Nexus does. Even if this hobby is much smaller than pc hw, I'm sure your channel will grow, you deserve it! PS - I just bought some Arendal 1961 speakers, even thanks to your review, and they are great.
When you said that this video is running longer that I intended I was like "dude, keep going, there's still coffee in my mug!" I like this sort of stuff a lot. And if there is stuff to talk about then it doesn't matter to me how long the video is. By the way, if you ever come to visit Finland you need to see one of these two live music clubs that use 70+ Genelecs as their PA system 😄
I think peak SPL figures are usually quoted at half-space. This peak is typically in the bass region, and most bass speakers are going to end up acoustically close (consider the wavelengths involved) to at least one boundary. Box design programs typically assume half-space use as well.
Hot Damn! Great to see ya back Erin! And in one piece to boot ; ) Dont even need the spec sheet to tell these things aim to be an "end game" system, but 6k watts!?!?! Dayum! But yeah, given the name and reputation, you can bet the farm these things are gonna satisfy!
Erin, I've seen some expensive speakers with adjustable rear tweeters. Can such design substitute for a wide frontal directivity? I am currently planning 4-way tower speakers with the waveguided tweeter (GRT-145W by Viawave). I've been thinking to add some switchable tweeter on a tilted back (15 degrees) top speaker box panel (to get additional ceiling and front wall reflections).
I'd like to get a pair of Tekton speakers to review. A year back I asked and they said they'd get me some after the 4th of July. I followed up and got no reply. Ghosted. Pretty normal in my experience.
The wider CTC spacing of the 4 mids seem to be accounting for the narrowing directivity at ~500hz, and then widening again as it transitions to the coaxial midrange..
@@ErinsAudioCorner I've heard before that they are really slow, even with customers, too bad that they haven't been responsive to you. Here's hoping that someday the stars align and they reach back out!
This speaker is going to be a monster. Only downsides besides price I can see (for me) is the design makes it difficult to almost impossible to install these in a baffle wall. A false wall would have to be extremely deep to accommodate these. And the relatively narrow-ish directivity. I do wish more companies matted coax drivers to waveguides to control the directivity.
Speaking of your preference for wide constant directivity tweeters. Purifi has a prototype called the PTT in their new speaker15 with +-70° out 20khz constant 😮 Suspect the narrow dispersion on the genelec is that pro applications don't want lots of room interaction? It looks to be cardioid down to 150hz-ish. Crazy out of reach engineering thanks for the video
That is the driver I wanted to make one of these videos for. It actually was going to happen last week when I saw the news but I put the triad review first.
A thousand years ago, when I first studied loudspeaker and array design, one of the cardinal rules was that if you're going to have multiple drivers reproducing anything higher than bass, the drivers must be as close together as possible, preferably in a vertical array, to avoid comb filter effects as the listener moves around. One wonders how Genelec has gotten around this with those four mids?
I think it has everything to do with their crossover points. The only thing that I find a bit perplexing is the time delay they most certainly are using to match the arrival time to the concentric mid/tweeter. I'm thinking that off-axis might do some funny things... but then again, if it's crossover is low enough (and steep) then it might not matter at all.
The 4 mid drivers act like a single ~18" (?) driver. Draw a circle around them, and they work like a single driver with the diameter of that circle. They are not close together because Genelec is using the distance between them to help control the directivity. And they have to be away from the edges of the wave guide. On the "the ones" speakers, they put the low frequency drivers behind the wave guide. Same idea, it's still coaxial...but I'm a bit surprised they didn't resort to the same kind of witchcraft on this speaker!
weird to say but a budget option you should check out is the Mackie HR8Mk2. it claims +/- 1.5db is 37hz-20khz. "budget" option at $1600/pair. Ethan Winer daily drives them. idk if you know who he is but I would buy anything he daily drives in a heartbeat. his pro audio expertise is 60+ years AND he loves objective data.
That is an interesting looking speaker! Still ugly as sin in my opinion, just like my JBL 590's, but potentially cooler than by what they can do. I get what your saying, it's gonna be about time alignment on the outer edge of that giant horn. Having 4 mids at the 4 corners of that horn, well that is weird but might work out better than better than.?! But at $70k, who among us will ever find out with real measurements? I am all for built in subs into main towers, one reason why I like Definitive Technology so much. The claimed 129db, that's gotta be coming from the subwoofer.... But at the end of the day, I'm a builder, a fixer, just a guy doing his thing and I will never spend even $2k on any one speaker! Especially when I know I can build the same or similar for WAY less. But hey, we're still lovin what you do and glad to have you back! Cheers man 🍻
This is an awesome format. Walking through the specs and discussing what they mean with a critical informed eye is very informative. One additional angle would be to talk about the intended audience or application. Would this be a dedicated, very large studio monitor. What are some of its competitors, and how do their specs and features stack up. Eg vs the large PMC monitors, vs the JBL M2, vs the Meyersound Blue horn etc.
Something I was thinking is that maybe I could do this sort of thing with speakers that I am reviewing. Maybe go through and talk about the design, postulate on the performance, etc. in one video. And then follow up later with a Review to see how well the spec sheet lines up with the real data. Sounds like a neat idea but not sure how feasible it would actually be.
Thumbs up, just like you asked for, cause I definitely like this content even if you don't have the Klippel and the speaker with you. It's good to have analysis of the manufacturer's data too
I REALLY like speakers with directivity. I think it's because I enjoy complex mixes with live instruments where the placement on the soundstage REALLY matters, not just the placement in the mix.
My Tarkus designed by Paul Carmody has exceeded my expectations. Was at Axpona ‘23 and only 5% of speakers I heard were better. Those 5% were all over $15K and as high as $250K.
It is a super accurate wide range speaker, that will appeal to studios that can't put their monitors into the wall, like most of the existing Genelec designs. 65k for a pair is expensive, but so is carpentry, and many concrete buildings cannot be modified. So this is a reaction to non-wooden construction environments, which is very common nowadays.
Hi, I really want to buy a new set of speaker for my old amplifier (technics ca-1080). My budget is around 300€ (more or less). Right now there is a deal on the debut b6.2 (~250€), but I’ve also found a great price on the Heco aurora 300 (less the 400€). Have you ever tried the aurora? Are you planning to test this product in the future? I really like also the debut reference 6.2, but unfortunately it cost 499€, so a little bit on the expensive side. Unfortunately here in Italy we can’t buy directly from emotiva, and so the shipping is about 120€ adding on top of the speaker price. Ps, my amplifier doesn’t come with a sub out connection, so until I’m gonna change it I won’t use a sub. Thanks a lot for yours video, I’m hoping that you can help me making a great choice. :)
Really enjoy hearing you speak about all things audio. The way your mind works and your ability to explain how speakers actually work just speaks to me , pun intended 😂😅. So happy to see you back on the audio grind.❤❤
Really appreciate you explaining how you interpret manufacturing product information Lots of credit to Genelec for including this kind of info in their marketing.
I hope you can get your hands on the MUM-8 studio monitors from the guys over at Present Day Productions, they've been getting a lot of great feedback from the few customers that have them so far. But I'd love to see some actual measurements, especially if you can get both the silk and beryllium drivers so we can also get an idea of the differences between the driver selection.
Enjoyed the hot take. I was taught half space was full space +3dB, I.e. 10 log Q; where Q=2 for hemispherical. I wouldn’t want to sit within 1m of a compression tweeter, however coherently it is integrated. Impressive spl figures.
@Merlin Garnett Well, I kind of had to LOL a bit when you mentioned not wanting to sit in the nearfield within close proximity to these Genelecs because of their HF compression drivers and waveguides. WHY? Because Erin actually used some BMS 5CN162 5" Concentric Midrange/1" HF Compression Drivers at the base of his custom-fabricated A-pillars in his old 2006 Honda Civic high end car audio "Test Mule", and he seemed to love them, ha! 😮 😅 In addition, below the 5CN162 concentric mids/compression tweeters, he had 10" Ciare HW251N Midbass drivers installed in custom fiberglass "kick panel" enclosures in the front left and right footwells which vented to the outside of the vehicle through ~4" diameter holes cut through to the front wheel well area. 😮 To top it off and bring up the LOW-LOW END, he installed TWO 15" Acoustic Elegance AE SBP15 subwoofers mounted to a sealed rear seat/trunk baffle wall in an Infinite Baffle configuration, LOL. All of the independent Crossovers, P-EQ, Levels, Phase, and Time Alignment for each individual driver were handled by a high end multichannel car audio DSP unit. IIRC, he placed in the Top 5 in a major car audio SQ Finals competion event against a massively stacked group of veteran SQ vehicles and serious competitors who had more elaborate "high end" installs with excellent track records. :-) That system would probably rival these Genelecs in terms of pure SPL and dynamics @ ~1m, LOL. I think that several of the other competitors that heard this system said that if they could choose just one car to drive home from that event, it would be Erin's Civic. 😂 To see photos and read about this crazy system and Erin's car audio antics, do a Google Search for "DIYMA ErinH 2006 Honda Civic LX Sedan Build Neverending Tale" and then go to Page 92 and then Page 100 of the forum thread. For the Dual 15" I.B. Subwoofer install, go to Page 88/Post # 1760, and Page 94.
@@bbfoto7248 I’ve heard Erin mention his car audio exploits but haven’t followed up so will take a look - love the description!! Don’t know what it is but I find horns and some waveguides honky in close proximity, need to be about 6-7 feet or more away and then I’m good. Maybe the wavefront flattens out a bit - not sure what it is tbh.
this bears some similarity to the Teknik Double Impact circular midrange driver arrangement around the tweeter but that one is around $3K ... has great reviews, its also big and can be driven to levels beyond what you can listen to in a large house ...
What kind of studio mixing room needs this SPL capability? Genuine question! If you can manage with less SPL 'The Ones' + W371 sub looks like it'll be better.
I think one other thing narrow dispersion adds is dynamics. Given the same source energy (db) and displacement the wider dispersion speaker spills its energy into the room more and the narrow one directs it more at the listener. This is one reason why horns are more dynamic. There is only so much energy and spilling it into the room hurts dynamics. I owned the Revel 228be which is pretty wide and the JBL 4367 which is pretty narrow at the same time. Honestly I don’t notice the sound stage difference too much between the two. What I do notice is the 4367 much better dynamics and increased texture an tone from that 15” paper woofer.
Narrow dispersion can increase max volume, but that is not the same as dynamic range. Speakers playing well within their operational specs don't compress the dynamic range.
This is good. My 2c is as long as there's measurements and informative. I still would love to see more new measurements. But video like this once in a while is a good compliment.
Given the size of this beast I don’t believe I’ll ever be able to measure it even if someone brought it to me. It’s too large for my current setup. Unless… maybe … I could do it in piece parts. Hmmm…. Still, I don’t think they’d loan me one for review. And my back would be completely fine with that. 😂😂
@@Dasbeerboots I appreciate that. Been trying to take better care of myself. Trying to stay on this earth a couple extra years than my previous lifestyle would have permitted.
Awesome video! The discussion on coaxial directivity was extremely enlightening. In marketing materials coaxial is described as a wider radiation, not narrower, but now I see that at least horizontally, that's not true. I went to Spinorama, Genelec 8050b vs 8351b, and low and behold, 8050b has wider (albeit rougher) horizontal directivity. Fascinating. Perhaps you could insert more discussion on the preferences you've accumulated over the years - for example type or port (or unported), types of tweeter, things like this.
The crossover frequencies are variable when using GLM. To me, that's a no brainer and I never understood why I have to select the subwoofer crossover manually in GLM. Surely the software can do a much better job than me.
Erin it’s outstanding to see you back. Did you, I can’t remember do a review of the now older Martin Logan 60xti and are you planning to do a review of the newer Martin Logan XTF100 and XTF200 speakers? Hey Erin with your level of experience have you ever thought about developing your own speaker?
I have not reviewed those speakers, no. I've considered making my own designs but I really just don't enjoy that... I did it for a while and burned out quickly.
The old Dunlavy SC-V and SC-VI have flatter frequency response 20 - 20k, and I believe their phase linearity is also better; pretty impressive for designs that are now 20 years old. For $70k I sure hope they sound awesome. You really need to find a pair of SC-V or SC-VI and measure them.
I suggest looking at the Gradient speakers from Finland. They are unique in the way they deal with the variable of room acoustics. Prices aren't quite as astronomical.
Typically SPL figures are shown for 1m distance. Companies go for frequency ranges above 20khz not because they think anybody can listen to those frequencies, but because they want the performance at 20khz to be flawless, plus it's good marketing material.
Meanwhile I am looking for most-Narrow radiation speakers to get some imaging back in my un-treated livingroom :) Wide radiation is great at short listening distances or in treated rooms, but if your RT60 is far from great and distance is around 3 meters - great speakers turn into mush.
I thought this was a great video. As someone who wants to understand speaker design and acoustic trade offs better, it was very informative. Plus, I constantly have questions about products that I don’t necessarily need a full review for; it would be nice to have someone just offer a simple overview of what certain products are all about.
As I mentioned, in the video, the wavelength that they are playing is long enough that all the speakers some. If they were crossed over higher, then you would get lobing issues. But the crossover on these is low enough that you do not have that issue. At least not to a significant degree based on the data.
grammar is said to be ambiguous if there exists more than one leftmost (not to be confused with politics) derivation or more than one more rightmost derivation or more than one parse tree for the given input string. but that's only at 120 db!
13:41 I can tell you from firsthand experience that B&W 802 S3 do not like the synthesizer part of Frankenstein by Edgar Winter Group! I had to spend close to $250for a replacement mid in 2002, now they're no longer available from B&W..
Edit: This isn't my first video back. I posted a new review of Triad's Gold LCR last week but it apparently didn't land on everyone's feed. Check it out in the link below:
ua-cam.com/video/gNKs0Dj2v5E/v-deo.html
I'm trying a new idea out. An "off the top" discussion about new designs or other things that I find interesting as they come to the market. Not a review, just a discussion. Let me know if you guys like this kind of thing.
I hate to bring 10 elephants to trample one parade, but if discussion is what you seek, everybody loves to talk about sound. It is an endless discussion for or against, why you should or should not, and everybody with a keyboard has an opinion. Again, we're 100% with ya, but finding the others willing to talk about logically without getting emotionally tied and confrontational as in just every forum everywhere! Well good luck, but this UA-cam is as good a place as any.
Cheers 🍻
Would be interesting if you could cover Alcons ribbons/ speakers especially as they are in the same pro market as Genelec. Here are a set in my studio - ua-cam.com/video/vB1oQhc-5Po/v-deo.html
Love it!
Informative, as always Erin 👍👍
@Douglas Blake I have. I just posted a Triad speaker review with full measurements last week. I think a lot of people somehow missed that. ua-cam.com/video/gNKs0Dj2v5E/v-deo.html
For us people that love audio and want to learn, this is great content; especially from manufacturers with reputable data. It also saves you the huge effort, but clearly this is limited but if there's more information like this i personally would love to see it. since we all know rarely do we get this much data outside of pro audio
I don't want to make this a thing with all speakers so I'll limit it to the ones that I find interesting and I'll try my best to be able to follow up with a real review. Unfortunately, in this case I think the speakers are just way too large for me to ever measure and I'm not really sure I see the point given their extreme price and the fact that Genelec has published their own data that is "enough" to help.
Nice to see you back Erin.Stay well and keep up the good work.Enjoy your content,especially when you dive deeper into the nuts and bolts of different designs and brands.
The reason the 5” drivers are slightly dome shaped is to keep the boundaries of the waveguide as smooth as possible. If there were deep geometric discontinuities, the on and off-axis response would suffer.
Glad to see you back and respect your opinions. Keep rolling with content for us!
I'm making this [almost] exact speaker! And I'm hoping to take it to Dayton Audio speaker competition this year...just gotta finish the final cabinets! I was loosely copying the W371A...then added a 12" coaxial...but decided to not have the sloping back.. To me it looks like they are fixing all the design conflicts/ limitations of the W371A. For example, when trying to copy their design, it became clear that the cabinet volume of the W371A really isn't large enough. I couldn't find drivers like the ones they are using that could do what I wanted/ expected them to be doing within that cabinet volume! The front facing woofer on the W371A can't go low enough, atleast not without being pushed by DSP. The ported subwoofer section just doesn't play that low because box size and port length.
On this new speaker, they chose an actual subwoofer driver in the front. This is important, because atleast in my interpretation of the design, that front driver needs to extend down to ~45hz. Down to 45hz allows them to use DSP tuning between all the low frequency drivers to get flat low frequency response. It is multiple subwoofers, without having a bunch of subwoofers placed around the room. In my case if I tune it using delays, little to no EQ is needed to get flat low frequency response. But it is worthy of noting that when I experimented with 4 subs that all play down to 30hz or below, I get a huge peak from 30-40hz that I have to aggressively EQ. But if 2 of the 4 low frequency drivers roll off by ~45hz, that peak disappeared. It may not be universally true, but I think it is interesting.
I'm by no means an expert at speakers, but this design seems to be confirmation of the principles I've been pursuing for the last year. So pretty cool.
Nice. Hope to see the final result.
This speaker reminded me about the Danley, too, design wise.
Hey, this is all good. I don't track all of these new things as often as I used to.
Edit: I am sure these are very good speakers. They are also outside my budget.
I too have heard the Danley during an outdoor demo. I was also impressed. They would have been more impressive indoors.
Always top notch video reviews. The only improvement I could think of is maybe a conclusion bookmark or final thoughts bookmark where you finalize or sum your thoughts of the product for when viewers may want to cheat and get the cliff notes version. This suggestion in no way discards your efforts. Much much appreciated! Keep on making these amazing videos 10/10.
I love this format! Your off the top explanations are thoughtful and seem scientifically sound, it's not just regurgitation or speculation.
So glad to see you back.
Sooooo good to see you back, Erin. I much appreciate your honest approach to what happened and can only assure you a bright future. As a former audio-journalist on printed media - and having been through the same process as yours in my private life - I promise you that you get a lot of strength after walking through that path and process. Thanks for your honesty and great work on this site.
Good to have you back Erin. I wasn't surprised at the genelec's radiation pattern as their main focus is studio monitors. If I needed a monitor for a studio I'm sure that genelec would be at the top of my list. But for home audio use i probably would choose something with a wider radiation pattern. That said, I wouldn't say no to demo them in my listening room. 😁
They work perfectly as normal Stereo Setup for Music & fipm. A friend of mine have the 8341 with an Self Build Double Bass Array (minidsp etc.) and fully treated ceiling and it counts by far to one the best systems ive listen in the past 15 yrs of Hifi. I personally use Neumanns but you cant do anything wrong with these brands. Top Products with an awesome performance
Content like this would be great. Glad you are back on track with things.
They will not win any awards looks wise but no doubt they sound amazing. Actives are the future.
The best cow bell... in two soundstages examples. You are THE best !
You not only need 70000 $, you need a separate room to hide them. No living wife will ever share the living room with one of these.
Unless your wife happens to be bat chit crazy but über talented recording/mixing engineer & producer, Sylvia Massy. 😀
@@bbfoto7248 1:1
The only true path to advancement in loudspeaker designs really does require active systems, with individual amplifiers and active electronic crossovers. Nice to see Genelec pushing that envelope. It makes me wonder when the high end home audio speaker guys will finally get the message. Passive speakers driven by single amplifiers are just a dead end.
Yep, I was a huge audio fan in my teenage days in late 70s. But I’m all about powered monitors these days. When you realize that you pick out a DAC and powered monitors and then patch in your source and you’re done.
Have you seen what Nakamichi has done with the new Dragon soundbar? It's NUTTY.
They will NEVER get it. Big monoblocks, overpriced passive Floorstanders & zero room treatment & no Room Correction will always be the way for most people...but when they are lucky and believe its better, let them live their dream. I will never go back to passives again
Watching all the footage from the Munich show recently, one speaker that stood out to me in the “ultra high end world” was from a German company called “B&M” that make a pretty incredible line of active speakers.. Worth checking out, im almost sure there’s nothing else like it!
@@rahliE777 The Backes & Mueller Guy (Johannes Siegler) also the CEO of the german studio brand KSDigital - Active Monitors. So they combine a little bit both worlds. He did also podcasts with acousticians and is based in the studio world
Genelec makes monitor speakers and want to have minimal room interaction, I imagine.
Man it's great you're back.
I follow some pc hw channels, and your technical no bullshit approach is kinda similar to what Gamers Nexus does.
Even if this hobby is much smaller than pc hw, I'm sure your channel will grow, you deserve it!
PS - I just bought some Arendal 1961 speakers, even thanks to your review, and they are great.
The 1961 speakers are an incredible value, IMHO.
Great to see u back on video Erin 🎉
When you said that this video is running longer that I intended I was like "dude, keep going, there's still coffee in my mug!"
I like this sort of stuff a lot. And if there is stuff to talk about then it doesn't matter to me how long the video is.
By the way, if you ever come to visit Finland you need to see one of these two live music clubs that use 70+ Genelecs as their PA system 😄
You bring a unique voice to the hobby and it's good to see you back on camera! Tyvm
I really appreciate the kind words.
I think peak SPL figures are usually quoted at half-space. This peak is typically in the bass region, and most bass speakers are going to end up acoustically close (consider the wavelengths involved) to at least one boundary. Box design programs typically assume half-space use as well.
Hot Damn! Great to see ya back Erin! And in one piece to boot ; )
Dont even need the spec sheet to tell these things aim to be an "end game" system, but 6k watts!?!?! Dayum!
But yeah, given the name and reputation, you can bet the farm these things are gonna satisfy!
I loved this video! This, along with your usual content, is exactly what I want to see when watching videos in this space.
When I get my pair, I'll be sure to let you try them out.
Just give me 100 years to save... 😂
Clearly made for recording/mixing studios. Considering the Spotify top 100 is Hip-hop and Rap dominated, the spl spec and price makes sense.
Nicely informative format, with data from a reputable manufacturer. Enjoyed it, Erin! 👍
love the format; after that hiatus, i'm starved for Erin content lol
Thanks! You might have seen it already but I posted a speaker review last Friday: ua-cam.com/video/gNKs0Dj2v5E/v-deo.html
Cool format, and I loove the cowbell,, 😅.
Cheers Erin,, 🍻😎👍👍
Yes, nice format. Ascendo home cinema line of speakers have also very detail measurements, could be next candidate for "review". Have fun Erin.
You look healthy! Welcome back
That looks like a beast of a speaker. Genelec is not playing around with this one.
Erin, I've seen some expensive speakers with adjustable rear tweeters. Can such design substitute for a wide frontal directivity? I am currently planning 4-way tower speakers with the waveguided tweeter (GRT-145W by Viawave). I've been thinking to add some switchable tweeter on a tilted back (15 degrees) top speaker box panel (to get additional ceiling and front wall reflections).
Great to see you back on YT! I've been following you on your website since the YT hiatus began.
Love it ps, thank u 🙏 bc yes: ambiguity inherent in adjective-heavy language cannot get anyone anywhere that data can you, absolutely.
Welcome back from CA. Peace be with you!
Total amplifier power is 5926 W. this thing is like the beast of high end speaker
The array of mids with a common acoustic center is interesting. Reminds me of tekton design's philosophy around using tweeter arrays.
Exactly
I'd like to get a pair of Tekton speakers to review. A year back I asked and they said they'd get me some after the 4th of July. I followed up and got no reply. Ghosted. Pretty normal in my experience.
@@ErinsAudioCorner that would be mega to finally see if it their integration works as expected.
The wider CTC spacing of the 4 mids seem to be accounting for the narrowing directivity at ~500hz, and then widening again as it transitions to the coaxial midrange..
@@ErinsAudioCorner I've heard before that they are really slow, even with customers, too bad that they haven't been responsive to you. Here's hoping that someday the stars align and they reach back out!
This speaker is going to be a monster. Only downsides besides price I can see (for me) is the design makes it difficult to almost impossible to install these in a baffle wall. A false wall would have to be extremely deep to accommodate these. And the relatively narrow-ish directivity. I do wish more companies matted coax drivers to waveguides to control the directivity.
The current Genelec models have such an intense, otherwordly look. I love it. Esp 1238A.
The Genelec site says the 8381A is 235 kg / 518.1 lb.
Speaking of your preference for wide constant directivity tweeters. Purifi has a prototype called the PTT in their new speaker15 with +-70° out 20khz constant 😮
Suspect the narrow dispersion on the genelec is that pro applications don't want lots of room interaction? It looks to be cardioid down to 150hz-ish. Crazy out of reach engineering thanks for the video
That is the driver I wanted to make one of these videos for. It actually was going to happen last week when I saw the news but I put the triad review first.
@@ErinsAudioCorner look forward to your thoughts about it.
I appreciate that you said "hypothesize" rather than "theorize"...lol!
Great to see you back. I hope you are handling the madness around your life well.
I have my days but mostly it's going well.
A thousand years ago, when I first studied loudspeaker and array design, one of the cardinal rules was that if you're going to have multiple drivers reproducing anything higher than bass, the drivers must be as close together as possible, preferably in a vertical array, to avoid comb filter effects as the listener moves around. One wonders how Genelec has gotten around this with those four mids?
I think it has everything to do with their crossover points. The only thing that I find a bit perplexing is the time delay they most certainly are using to match the arrival time to the concentric mid/tweeter. I'm thinking that off-axis might do some funny things... but then again, if it's crossover is low enough (and steep) then it might not matter at all.
The 4 mid drivers act like a single ~18" (?) driver. Draw a circle around them, and they work like a single driver with the diameter of that circle. They are not close together because Genelec is using the distance between them to help control the directivity. And they have to be away from the edges of the wave guide. On the "the ones" speakers, they put the low frequency drivers behind the wave guide. Same idea, it's still coaxial...but I'm a bit surprised they didn't resort to the same kind of witchcraft on this speaker!
I was wondering why the latency is a bit higher compared to other DSP speakers. That explains it.
weird to say but a budget option you should check out is the Mackie HR8Mk2. it claims +/- 1.5db is 37hz-20khz. "budget" option at $1600/pair.
Ethan Winer daily drives them. idk if you know who he is but I would buy anything he daily drives in a heartbeat. his pro audio expertise is 60+ years AND he loves objective data.
Check this out: resolutionmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Mackie-HR824-Mk2.pdf
That is an interesting looking speaker! Still ugly as sin in my opinion, just like my JBL 590's, but potentially cooler than by what they can do. I get what your saying, it's gonna be about time alignment on the outer edge of that giant horn. Having 4 mids at the 4 corners of that horn, well that is weird but might work out better than better than.?! But at $70k, who among us will ever find out with real measurements?
I am all for built in subs into main towers, one reason why I like Definitive Technology so much. The claimed 129db, that's gotta be coming from the subwoofer.... But at the end of the day, I'm a builder, a fixer, just a guy doing his thing and I will never spend even $2k on any one speaker! Especially when I know I can build the same or similar for WAY less.
But hey, we're still lovin what you do and glad to have you back! Cheers man 🍻
This is an awesome format. Walking through the specs and discussing what they mean with a critical informed eye is very informative.
One additional angle would be to talk about the intended audience or application. Would this be a dedicated, very large studio monitor. What are some of its competitors, and how do their specs and features stack up. Eg vs the large PMC monitors, vs the JBL M2, vs the Meyersound Blue horn etc.
Something I was thinking is that maybe I could do this sort of thing with speakers that I am reviewing. Maybe go through and talk about the design, postulate on the performance, etc. in one video. And then follow up later with a Review to see how well the spec sheet lines up with the real data. Sounds like a neat idea but not sure how feasible it would actually be.
Thumbs up, just like you asked for, cause I definitely like this content even if you don't have the Klippel and the speaker with you. It's good to have analysis of the manufacturer's data too
Maybe not so much on the uber high-end stuff but I do like this format and would watch more of it for sure.
The cowbell example was not terrible at all, it was brilliant.
I don’t get why Genelec went front 10k to 70k speaker in this line up. Feel like they missed a big market in middle
Awesome video, really enjoyed this. This speaker is just one a level of its own.
I REALLY like speakers with directivity. I think it's because I enjoy complex mixes with live instruments where the placement on the soundstage REALLY matters, not just the placement in the mix.
My Tarkus designed by Paul Carmody has exceeded my expectations. Was at Axpona ‘23 and only 5% of speakers I heard were better. Those 5% were all over $15K and as high as $250K.
It's good to see you back making content.
It is a super accurate wide range speaker, that will appeal to studios that can't put their monitors into the wall, like most of the existing Genelec designs. 65k for a pair is expensive, but so is carpentry, and many concrete buildings cannot be modified. So this is a reaction to non-wooden construction environments, which is very common nowadays.
Hi, I really want to buy a new set of speaker for my old amplifier (technics ca-1080). My budget is around 300€ (more or less). Right now there is a deal on the debut b6.2 (~250€), but I’ve also found a great price on the Heco aurora 300 (less the 400€). Have you ever tried the aurora? Are you planning to test this product in the future? I really like also the debut reference 6.2, but unfortunately it cost 499€, so a little bit on the expensive side. Unfortunately here in Italy we can’t buy directly from emotiva, and so the shipping is about 120€ adding on top of the speaker price. Ps, my amplifier doesn’t come with a sub out connection, so until I’m gonna change it I won’t use a sub. Thanks a lot for yours video, I’m hoping that you can help me making a great choice. :)
Really enjoy hearing you speak about all things audio. The way your mind works and your ability to explain how speakers actually work just speaks to me , pun intended 😂😅. So happy to see you back on the audio grind.❤❤
haha. Dude, you crack me up!
Reminds me of the Perlisten design with their two midranges surrounding the tweeter...in this case there are four. Or maybe the Tekton designs.
This video was fantastic! So happy to see you exploring new ideas. I learned a great deal. Thank you!
Really appreciate you explaining how you interpret manufacturing product information Lots of credit to Genelec for including this kind of info in their marketing.
Glad to! I really enjoyed it so I’m happy to hear others found it useful.
I hope you can get your hands on the MUM-8 studio monitors from the guys over at Present Day Productions, they've been getting a lot of great feedback from the few customers that have them so far. But I'd love to see some actual measurements, especially if you can get both the silk and beryllium drivers so we can also get an idea of the differences between the driver selection.
Ohhhh. That speaker looks good!
I would love to have the MUM-8 to mix on. That looks like a fantastic speaker.
@@glennh7297 I just sent them an email via their website to see if they'd be interesting/willing to send loaners. We'll see what they say.
@Erin's Audio Corner
Wait! Where did you say that Cowbell was in the soundstage again??? 😂
Enjoyed the hot take. I was taught half space was full space +3dB, I.e. 10 log Q; where Q=2 for hemispherical. I wouldn’t want to sit within 1m of a compression tweeter, however coherently it is integrated. Impressive spl figures.
@Merlin Garnett
Well, I kind of had to LOL a bit when you mentioned not wanting to sit in the nearfield within close proximity to these Genelecs because of their HF compression drivers and waveguides.
WHY?
Because Erin actually used some BMS 5CN162 5" Concentric Midrange/1" HF Compression Drivers at the base of his custom-fabricated A-pillars in his old 2006 Honda Civic high end car audio "Test Mule", and he seemed to love them, ha! 😮 😅
In addition, below the 5CN162 concentric mids/compression tweeters, he had 10" Ciare HW251N Midbass drivers installed in custom fiberglass "kick panel" enclosures in the front left and right footwells which vented to the outside of the vehicle through ~4" diameter holes cut through to the front wheel well area. 😮
To top it off and bring up the LOW-LOW END, he installed TWO 15" Acoustic Elegance AE SBP15 subwoofers mounted to a sealed rear seat/trunk baffle wall in an Infinite Baffle configuration, LOL.
All of the independent Crossovers, P-EQ, Levels, Phase, and Time Alignment for each individual driver were handled by a high end multichannel car audio DSP unit.
IIRC, he placed in the Top 5 in a major car audio SQ Finals competion event against a massively stacked group of veteran SQ vehicles and serious competitors who had more elaborate "high end" installs with excellent track records. :-)
That system would probably rival these Genelecs in terms of pure SPL and dynamics @ ~1m, LOL. I think that several of the other competitors that heard this system said that if they could choose just one car to drive home from that event, it would be Erin's Civic. 😂
To see photos and read about this crazy system and Erin's car audio antics, do a Google Search for "DIYMA ErinH 2006 Honda Civic LX Sedan Build Neverending Tale" and then go to Page 92 and then Page 100 of the forum thread. For the Dual 15" I.B. Subwoofer install, go to Page 88/Post # 1760, and Page 94.
@@bbfoto7248 I’ve heard Erin mention his car audio exploits but haven’t followed up so will take a look - love the description!! Don’t know what it is but I find horns and some waveguides honky in close proximity, need to be about 6-7 feet or more away and then I’m good. Maybe the wavefront flattens out a bit - not sure what it is tbh.
this bears some similarity to the Teknik Double Impact circular midrange driver arrangement around the tweeter but that one is around $3K ... has great reviews, its also big and can be driven to levels beyond what you can listen to in a large house ...
Tekton
Pretty shure that the Genelec play in a complete different league
So glad this guy is back!
Like this format 👍The cow bell analogy was funny!
What kind of studio mixing room needs this SPL capability? Genuine question! If you can manage with less SPL 'The Ones' + W371 sub looks like it'll be better.
I think one other thing narrow dispersion adds is dynamics. Given the same source energy (db) and displacement the wider dispersion speaker spills its energy into the room more and the narrow one directs it more at the listener. This is one reason why horns are more dynamic.
There is only so much energy and spilling it into the room hurts dynamics.
I owned the Revel 228be which is pretty wide and the JBL 4367 which is pretty narrow at the same time.
Honestly I don’t notice the sound stage difference too much between the two. What I do notice is the 4367 much better dynamics and increased texture an tone from that 15” paper woofer.
Narrow dispersion can increase max volume, but that is not the same as dynamic range.
Speakers playing well within their operational specs don't compress the dynamic range.
Glad to have you back! Question for you: which would you say would provide the best phantom centre: the kef r3 or one of the arendal bookshelves!
This is good. My 2c is as long as there's measurements and informative. I still would love to see more new measurements. But video like this once in a while is a good compliment.
Given the size of this beast I don’t believe I’ll ever be able to measure it even if someone brought it to me. It’s too large for my current setup. Unless… maybe … I could do it in piece parts. Hmmm….
Still, I don’t think they’d loan me one for review. And my back would be completely fine with that. 😂😂
@@ErinsAudioCorner I mean including measurements provided by manufacturers.
@@johnyang799 oh, understood.
Hey Erin, great first look. Also, you look great. Lighting is good, camera is good, video quality is all great. Glad to see you back.
Hey! Thanks! The secret is simple: I got Botox on my nose. 😂😂
I mean, I don't want to simp too much, but hair looks good and clean shave. All around, it looks like you're doing really well.
@@Dasbeerboots I appreciate that. Been trying to take better care of myself. Trying to stay on this earth a couple extra years than my previous lifestyle would have permitted.
Awesome video! The discussion on coaxial directivity was extremely enlightening. In marketing materials coaxial is described as a wider radiation, not narrower, but now I see that at least horizontally, that's not true. I went to Spinorama, Genelec 8050b vs 8351b, and low and behold, 8050b has wider (albeit rougher) horizontal directivity. Fascinating. Perhaps you could insert more discussion on the preferences you've accumulated over the years - for example type or port (or unported), types of tweeter, things like this.
The crossover frequencies are variable when using GLM. To me, that's a no brainer and I never understood why I have to select the subwoofer crossover manually in GLM. Surely the software can do a much better job than me.
Yup - Keep them coming! I value your experience and knowledge on how Acoustics work so your opinions on it are worth tons =)
More cowbell, please! 😆
Erin it’s outstanding to see you back. Did you, I can’t remember do a review of the now older Martin Logan 60xti and are you planning to do a review of the newer Martin Logan XTF100 and XTF200 speakers? Hey Erin with your level of experience have you ever thought about developing your own speaker?
I have not reviewed those speakers, no.
I've considered making my own designs but I really just don't enjoy that... I did it for a while and burned out quickly.
I really hope Erin reviews the LS60 for its slim coaxial drivers and the Q Active 400 for its wide dispersion BMR drivers.
Maybe now Genelec will send you a pair to review! Love these types of videos.
Man, I don't even know if I would want to try to measure these. I've been working out but I ain't THAT strong. LOL
Love to hear you talk.
The old Dunlavy SC-V and SC-VI have flatter frequency response 20 - 20k, and I believe their phase linearity is also better; pretty impressive for designs that are now 20 years old. For $70k I sure hope they sound awesome. You really need to find a pair of SC-V or SC-VI and measure them.
$70,000/pair whew...for big name professional studios only. ...What they didn't round over the edges?
yeah for that money they should have pulled out all the stops
too ugly for rich people's home.
I suggest looking at the Gradient speakers from Finland. They are unique in the way they deal with the variable of room acoustics. Prices aren't quite as astronomical.
Definitely like the explanations
These are some cool speakers. Thanks for sharing. 👍
Glad you're back! This type of content is cool occasionally. BTW you're looking great!
Thanks! I've been trying to take better care of myself... this 40 year old body was breaking down too soon! LOL
Typically SPL figures are shown for 1m distance.
Companies go for frequency ranges above 20khz not because they think anybody can listen to those frequencies, but because they want the performance at 20khz to be flawless, plus it's good marketing material.
Would be interesting to compare with Dutch 8c's ... they go loud as tested and offering on paper similar.
Meanwhile I am looking for most-Narrow radiation speakers to get some imaging back in my un-treated livingroom :)
Wide radiation is great at short listening distances or in treated rooms, but if your RT60 is far from great and distance is around 3 meters - great speakers turn into mush.
He's BACK ladies and gents!....... Well mostly gents.....🤷♂
haha. Yep... mostly gents.
I thought this was a great video. As someone who wants to understand speaker design and acoustic trade offs better, it was very informative. Plus, I constantly have questions about products that I don’t necessarily need a full review for; it would be nice to have someone just offer a simple overview of what certain products are all about.
Having 4 mid ranges ... how will they deal with wave cancelation. Are they are similarly polarized? Not convinced about having 4 of them
As I mentioned, in the video, the wavelength that they are playing is long enough that all the speakers some. If they were crossed over higher, then you would get lobing issues. But the crossover on these is low enough that you do not have that issue. At least not to a significant degree based on the data.
Wow, the phrase that springs to mind is money can't buy taste. I find these absolutely hideous lol
Awesome!! Cant wait till the DIY version comes out lmao
I literally chuckled when I read this comment. 😂
grammar is said to be ambiguous if there exists more than one leftmost (not to be confused with politics) derivation or more than one more rightmost derivation or more than one parse tree for the given input string. but that's only at 120 db!
13:41 I can tell you from firsthand experience that B&W 802 S3 do not like the synthesizer part of Frankenstein by Edgar Winter Group! I had to spend close to $250for a replacement mid in 2002, now they're no longer available from B&W..
👍 Very pro niche product, how many will they sell? Not surprised it has to be super expensive.
I love pro 15" drivers, big is beautiful...
Any chance we'll see more Genelec reviews on this channel?
I'm not sure. If it's up to me I'd be happy to test others but it's a matter of finding some to review.