Funny enough, I don't play any of these games currently but have a little in the past and love card games in general. UA-cam sent me a Rarran video with a guest once, watched all those, picked my favorites of them and am now subscribed to Rarran, CGB and Cimo. Maybe soon to be Voxy
My brother in christ if you where playing modern yugioh you wouldnt type those words. Konami has a dogshit reprint policy. They tell "hey fellow money cow ääähem i mean player we reprinted meta card XYZ!" In reality these mofos reprinted the meta XYZ card but made it a fucking shortprint!
Yeah yu-gi-oh isn't much better honestly. I would just recommend their online clients. The reprint boxes are really nice, but the game is still crazy expensive for the 6th best deck in the locals
As a former Yu-Gi-Oh player... "cards games, are never an investment"... i have always seen buying cards as "how much im going to put in" and not really expect to ever make that money back.
I'm also a former yugioh player and I play commander because I got tired of the using banning to force a rotation. I wanted a slow moving fun game that rarely changed much and I wouldn't lose hundreds of dollars overnight. No other commander ban lost anyone more than $100. This a single deck could have lost $300. I use proxies and have over 100 decks, and so far have pulled out 35 cards that are a combination of these cards. If I had bought the real cards I'd be down over $4,000 overnight because I'm pretty sure I have a few more to take out of decks still.
It is still good advice in Magic, Wizards just pretended they didn't make decisions around the secondary market for a very long time, and some people deluded themselves into thinking they could invest and it wouldn't be a stupid risk. So there are some absolutely unhinged people right now I'd imagine, I don't play magic anymore.
@@atk9989 This is the part I didn't get even from the vid. Why do you need 35 copies of each of these staple cards for 35 decks? Wouldn't you just take the 1 copy apiece "shell" and move them over to each new deck you play?
@@GG-bw5qd Sure, I could understand buying a couple or three of them (though I personally wouldn't bother) but for these cards you run in every deck I just...wouldn't put them in a deck, I'd keep them in the binder and just slap them into whatever deck I'm running.
What people have done to the rules committee over this is disgusting and anyone who had that response deserved to lose their money and be shunned out of the game
@JeffBryant-e2t threats of violence and harrasment all over members of the rules committees pages strangely focused one of the female members. Classic toxic comunity shit.
@@JeffBryant-e2tthe outcry was so great that the Rules Committee ceded control of the Commander Banlist to WotC, effectively making it an official format and stripping the Rules Committee of any ownership or power to enforce their previous rulings.
@@RiverM8rix but what was the extent of the complaints just vocal disappointment or did they go crazy over it? Also yeah the bans were super reasonable all it did was stop pub stomps and ever so mildly effect cedh
I feel bad for the legitimate players that bought some of these cards but I'm extremely happy to see these cards go, especially mana crypt. Take the proxy pill.
I own JL (2x) and Crypt (1x) and honestly from a balancing standpoint? No problem. The optics though? 2 Cards that were reprinted last year as chase cards to push product banned this quick? Damn that hurts my consumer confidence, since all 3 of those were packed and I did "chase" them. I don't know but banning a card like Nadu that was a balancing mistake shortly after printing feels different than banning high power staples after using them to push product. I know the RC is independent from WOTC, but after this they need better lines of communication. Dont reprint something if its at risk of getting banned. Once reprinted maybe a 2 or 3 year period in which it definitely won't be banned? So yeah, to me the issue wasn't the reasoning for the ban but the mixed signals that are sent when cards are reprinted shortly prior.
@@datmuhq6821 I agree but also feel like my main problem with that is specifically wizards only reprinting these card in incredibly short supply in premium products only contributes to the outrageous pricetag. It's of course unclear (at least to me) whether or not the rc would have known these chase reprints were coming and could have banned these cards earlier or if wizards strong armed them into leaving them unbanned for the time so they could sell more product. Either way I feel the pushed commander specific cards and exploiting expensive staples to sell packs is incredibly anti consumer regardless of bans
Hurts to see the lotus I pulled crash in value, but it's understandable. I put in in my deck instead of cashing it in, and I never even got to cast it. lmao. I need to unload it quickly to get something out of it, I'm guessing it ill keep dropping.
I want to see Mana Cave now. 0 mana artifact that taps to add 2, doesn't untap during untap phase. At beginning of upkeep, if Mana Cave is tapped flip a coin, if you win untap it.
This is still a better Mana Vault and a type of fast mana that probably shouldn't be printed for commander. Most decks would still run it if they had access to it.
Maybe make it so you take the 3 only when it untaps, so you don't have the feels bad of taking damage and getting no mana? And it feels like you're getting something for the life you're losing when it does happen.
I want to come with a slightly different perspective for this banlist: I mostly play Yugioh, but I've been getting more into Mtg recently. I mostly play the simulators because I work closing shifts which makes it difficult to attend LGS locals, but commander is one of those formats that doesn't need a tournament structure to play, so I've been considering making a commander deck (Gargos Fight and Bite, I was thinking) for a small amount of time. This banlist has made the format feel so much more accessible. I know I didn't NEED the Jeweled Lotus or Mana Crypt or the expensive staples like it, and I honestly wasn't intending to spend that much on just a single card. However, the idea that I don't have to feel outgunned when my opponent drops a Jeweled Lotus on me, that like, I literally just wanted the win less or else I would have spent more for it, in a casual format where I am intending casual enjoyment, having that reassurance feels nice. I think the quiet part of this banlist is that it was intended in large part to bring down the price of commander, and I'm glad they were specific and direct in targeting the cards that were A) Practically mandatory, B) Created a mismatched gamestate, and C) were prohibitively expensive, and also that they're willing to go for a card like Jeweled Lotus, impressive as Commander is literally the only format that card is playable in, not even "Everything is playable" Vintage keeps that card safe. Overall, I'm extremely happy about this banlist, and it makes me want to try more commander as a result. I know it stings to have a card you spent so much on get banned from under you. For Yugioh, I remember building a core for a Mist Valley Deck in September 2013 and then Birdman got limited to 1 a month before the TCG got Harpie Dancer, back when the TCG and OCG had a unified banlist. Had basically the entire shell and was just waiting for that one card to release and my deck got banned before I ever got to play it. It's a lot less money comparatively, but for a high schooler, the $100+ I spent on that deck just for me to never be able to take it to locals was devastating. But you know what? I didn't let the banlist stop me. I still played that deck. I played it with friends who knew this was a pet deck I cared a lot about, even if it wasn't tournament legal. And it's still one of my favorite decks despite never being TCG legal (was technically OCG legal for like 5 months). I hope Mtg players can find the same joy I did then.
From the accessibility perspective, yes. The ban is great. The problem for many people seems to be that there were no communications from the RC, and that this ban was dropped out of nowhere even when wotc reprinted jeweled lotus and mana crypt as early as last year. So it feels bad for players who invest in the past few months thinking they could play this card at their LGS... (ig they could rule 0 it but still that very much depends on the LGS policy on this).
"Practically mandatory" JLo was in 7% of decks. It was mandatory only if you were playing in very warped local metas. (Or cedh, I guess, but in cedh it was actually healthy.)
To be fair most people have your mindset. I've never seen anyone at my card shop drop a Mana Vault or something of similar price, CGB does because he's a pro player playing with other pro players. Although once in a while someone might rip a $50 in a pack so you might see something interesting every now and then.
I mean CGB actually said that he wasn't running them for a while because he found the game was more fun when they weren't in the deck because it led to less unbalanced game states
@@opposite342 they had been openly talking about looking at these cards on Twitter for years. Anyone complaining is just butthurt they can't as easily pubstomp anymore.
I dont like the way people say they just lost a lot of money because of these bans. You lost that money when you bought the card however long ago. (Notice how I didnt say invest)
To give you some perspective, some have local cedh tournament at their LGS which requires to have physical copy of cards, you were then required to buy those for the tournament, and now that they are banned, you don't have the money to buy the replacement card
some people like having pricey cards, that's the reason why they're pricy in the first place. If no-one wanted to own powerful cards they'd all be pennies anyway. Shitting on people for that is just petty.
@@thatoneguy3840they're not expensive because of their power. They're expensive because they don't get reprinted as much so there's less in circulation. And that's not counting collector's hoarding them and not even playing them. Cardboard shouldn't be worth 100$ period. That's the problem. If WotC would just print more copies, they would be worth waaay cheaper
I will never forget the banlist for YGO during the dark days a few years ago when they changed nothing on the list, and Cimo's reaction was the first time I heard his curse. It was like hearing a nun swear. You just didn't expect it.😂
Physical Card games have this weird culture (especially MTG) where cards are an "investment" in peoples mind? Like, you buy cards to play with them they arent stocks and bonds. Or you're a collector, in which case you're going to collect and hold them forever. A cards price tanking isnt "taking your money", everyone always tells me about the price of their stuff but I've yet to ever meet someone thats actually selling theirs. That said, it obviously feels bad if you just bought the card and it got banned. I do feel for those people, but in the end its probably healthier that they're gone and thats just an unfortunate circumstance for those people- shouldnt be too many since its not like there was a reason to have a surge in buys recently
100%. To me, the only entities who are investing in cards who should be doing so are game stores which provide a place for people to play as part of their business model.
Idk I took my mana crypt that I paid 100 dollars for thinking I'd be able to play it forever and on the day of the ban toom it to my lgs and sold it for a reverse retrofoil of hallowed fountain... so yeah... I didn't make my money back but at the same time I lost like 50 dollars with that banning especially considering I wanted to sell it a month before what is now the banning due to the power level decrease of the play groups I play with now versus the ones I played with before...
@@d43m0n412 if you wanted to sell it a month before, you could have just sold it a month ago- and its not like that 50$ just vanished, it was spent on the time you did use it for.
stores buy cards from players and have stocks of cards, some stores have lost thousands of dollars overnight, LGS is who is really hurt by this no one cares about some whales, all these cards deserved a ban but they should have spaced it out and communicated they were being looked at, but screw dockside either way
Physical card games allow cards to be sold and traded, which is one advantage you have over digital card games. You also must take into account that the most common way to obtain these cards is through packs which have randomly assorted cards which you cannot predetermine. This allows the playerbase to assign values to cards based on multiple factors like rarity, scarcity, power level and appeal. A lot of these factors are determined by the developers and can impact the value based on reprint frequency or printing cards that interact with them. On top of being valuable in the game, people value them for ephemeral reasons like enjoying the themes or art. On top of everything else, it must be understood that cards are a luxury hobby for those with disposable income. As prices creep higher and higher over the years people get attracted to the sense of exclusivity and will gravitate to something that draws others in. While not an obvious concept up front, it comes back to a very simple point. The last thing people want to be told is that this luxury item that they spent their hard earned money on is no longer worth anything. Time + money being put into something which is then being removed does not feel good for anyone, no matter how you attribute those values.
I greatly enjoy Cimooo's commentary. It's actually pretty crazy how well he can analyze a card and come to, more or less, the exact reasoning for why a card is or isn't strong or bad or banned. Clearly the mark of a high level player that understands the design philosophy of not just his game, but if card games as a whole.
38:00 tbf it's not *just* vibes, redundancy is a big power factor in commander, having 1 versus 2 sol rings in your 99 is a big shift in reliability. By my reckoning, including mulligan if you have both vault and ring you have near 40% odds of hitting either by turn 3. Though while it wasn't spelled out explicitly it's really 100% an availability thing: mana crypt was 200 base, sol ring is reprinted so much you get one for half a buck. For a *universally applicable* card that's a huge difference. You can't justify putting a crypt in every deck, you can justify putting a ring in every deck.
Yeah, and ideally Sol Ring would be banned too to make the game even healthier but like they discussed it's basically impossible unlike Mana Crypt. Until someone uses a time machine to prevent them from adding it to every precon it's bound to the format.
@@matthew55793 The only thing I don't get is they talked to WotC about these bans going back a year. They could have said hey, we want to ban sol ring stop putting it in every precon, replace it with some other manarock designed for commander that isn't as broken like a 1 mana artifact that taps for any color in your commander's color identity would be fine and not overbearing because it's 3 mana on turn 2, that isn't breaking the game. Could play 2 manarocks on turn 2 after that, but then it's a really good draw anyways and grim monolith still exists and is legal.
If my math is correct if you have both Mana Crypt and Sol Ring in your deck you have a one in four chance to pull one of them in your opening hand when mulligan is included. If you are will to go down to an opening hand of six you have a one in three chance of pulling one of them. With just one of them for two mulligans (going to six in opening hand) you have less than one in five.
Redundancy is one of the big reasons that Rat Kindred decks are viable. As there are the two or three Rat cards that let you have as many of them as you want in your deck. Knowing that you are going to have access to that one card basically at all times of the game is really powerful, even though the card on its own is pretty weak. You can just put other cards that interact well with it and knowing that the interaction will happen.
gaeas cradle is still legal, it does not seem like it was banned for price+power combination when cradle is legal. redundancy makes sense as a reason to ban it though. still shoulda banned both.
Not really. One can be repeated and stops all targeting including hand rips, etc and draws you more and more cards as it goes on vs one day that nets both players 1 card and neither player take damage. I would say Royal magical library is closer to it.
@@JackCross3 well the limiting factor for the one ring is turns and usually you don’t get any more than 1 or 2 turns in yugioh. So if they printed a monster that can’t be destroyed or targeted and says something like pay 500 LP to draw a card and until the next turn you do not take damage from your opponent. I would 100% say that’ll be an immediate 3 of and people would run small world just to find it.
One day of peace is limited because it is an ftk card. It doesn't have a once per turn close. Every card that draw for free in yugioh, even in it is a + 0, are kinda sus and will be abused by random ftk decks. It plays very different to the One ring which stays on the field and which its draw effect add up over time.
And they somehow still manage to keep some versions of cards more expensive for people who want cool versions! I like magic more than yugioh nowadays, but the monetization of yugioh is far better than magic
Commander was founded by players who found a unique way to play back when we had Block Constructed. WotC needs to focus on just having balanced sets and not power creeping and catering to the Commander crowd, maybe just have a few fun flavor cards that can fit in popular EDH decks
Yeah anything is better than reserved list crap going on in mtg still. At least cards are reprinted and made available, like sure they're premium for a period of time, but then that time ends and most people can afford the cards. Whereas in magic there are still so many cards without a reprint at all that are many years old outside of reserved list too. Or their last reprint was many years ago.
@@ShivamMeTimbers because of the way the rotations work, every rotation some of the most expensive must have cards will get banned or reprinted in the tins. Everyone knows it, so after the last tournaments in that rotation or before a tin comes out, people will offload these cards and the price will drop significantly. Normal people can get around this by selling theirs early when the card is still useable for future tournaments and people want it. But competitive players either get burned with the price drop or don’t play the best cards. So if this happens multiple times to multiple cards, it’s not surprising that people can lose a lot of money every year.
I opened one Commander Legends collector booster on release day. I opened an Extended Art Foil Jeweled Lotus and Extended Art Foil Mana Drain. I sold those cards so fast. For years, I wished i had kept the Jeweled Lotus, but now I don't feel so bad.
@@EastToWestTCG yup. Not too happy the two most expensive cards I have opened just lost most of their value to be sure. At least I hadn't bought a Dockside yet.
@@PsychoDiesel48 Don’t be bummed. Hold onto the cards as either a new format will come along or they’ll get unbanned and the value will immediately return.
These cards needed to go a long time ago. The committees mistake was allowing them for this long. Jeweled Lotus should have been banned immediately to send a message to wotc.
In a kind of callous way, I think a ban with as much backlash as this one actually is even more of a message to wotc than a preban that would probably blow over in a day or two. If people do actually quit, liquidate, etc. in a significant way and the rc shows that they aren't afraid to ban potentially controversial cards, THAT'S a true deterrent. The former means fewer people buy CMM maybe, the latter means fewer people play mtg as a WHOLE as a result of their printing
@ShadowMage223 risking killing the format you are in charge of is a horrible way to try to send a message. This is just as likely to kill the RC as it is to send any message to WOTC. How many people are going to say "screw the RC" and move to kitchen table magic instead of going to LGS's to play commander?
@@Nastyn1nja808 if rules commitee members were caught trading banned cards or replacements in a big way before the ban, legal issues could be possible. argueably the logic of insider trading applies
CGB sounded so surprised that YGO's 100+ dollar cards get reprinted into oblivion. Yeah, that's is pretty normal for us. One example I remember is a card called "Ash Blossom & Joyous Spring" which was first released in the TCG in 2017. I don't remember how expensive it was at its absolute height, and a lot of card databases don't really keep track of historical prices for that long. I do remember it being fairly expensive like $100 but somebody can correct me if they do remember. They didn't reprint the card until almost a year later, and it was a kinda short printed Ultra Rare card so the price dipped but not TOO badly. They released it again just 5 months after that, but the real kicker was in 2019 when they put it as a guaranteed common in a $10 structure deck. So you could get your hands on three of them for $30 at a walmart alongside 3 pre-made decks. That is usually preeeeeetty common for us. We see cards go from $100-200 to $60 within the next year because of reprints and then by year 2 or 3 they're probably common cards you get in a $10 premade deck lol. Our cards do not hold value.
Yeah, it's difficult not to come off as trying to sound high and mighty but it's literally that "First time?" meme coming to life. You could argue there's a difference between having a card banned outright in a format vs reprinted and becoming more available, but the nosedive that some of these pieces of cardboard took in terms of secondary market price are just too real
We've had it happen a couple of times _way_ back in the day, but the largest reprinting that we had, led to the reserved list because of people whinging about their card values.
@@rakino4418 There are a _lot_ of people who view CCGs as a speculative financial market first, game second (if at all), and for those people it's a bad thing for people to find the cards that they want to play at a low price.
thing is, Wizards have a really bad track record of printing "fixed" versions of cards that end up being even more broken. If Mana Cave comes to be, it'll probably be banned even faster :D
@@Gravewhisper Ya like Nadu could have easily been fixed, even with an errata, that the effect only triggers twice per turn overall (well twice per Nadu if you somehow got two or more Nadus on the board. Which isn’t impossible by any means but is also not super easy). That effect would still be amazing and probably among the best commanders. They could also make it so your opponent has to target the cards for it to trigger, which would weaken it significantly, and it would still be an amazing card.
@@xolotltolox7626You play searchable extenders at 1 or 2. Drawing into them is nice since get you get an extra search for a trap or something, but not drawing them isn’t the end of the world. So they are the first to get the cut when making room for non-engine. It’s really starters and staples you play at 3.
Time Tearing Morganite is a pretty bad comparison to The One Ring. There are a bunch of cards that do what that card does, drawing you an extra card at the start of each turn. They're nowhere near as good. The One Ring draws you a card immediately, the turn you play it. Then, on your next turn - which is basically guaranteed because of the protection, you tap it to draw 2. That's 3 cards for 4 mana, which is already a decent rate (though not outstanding). But if you get to untap with it again, that's another 3 cards. 6 for 4! And god help you if they have even a single untapping effect. It's not easy to remove either, being indestructible. I know YGO's games are too fast for that delayed advantage to matter much, but it's still way better than something like morganite (and in YGO the fact that it buys you a free turn would probably be much more useful).
cimo also neglected to mention the fact that morganite prevents you from activating monster effects in the hand, cutting off handtrap access, which pretty much makes the card unplayable in almost all decks since running those is essential for modern YGO, if it didn't have that restriction, it would probably see play as a one of just in case you happen to go first
Just a point to add here. Lotus does see play in Legacy, as a playset. It's part of a combo with Doubling Cube as cube effectively launders Lotus' mana into mana usable for anything.
The reaction people had over these bans made me honestly ashamed of being part of the EDH community. Just straight up shameful behaviour all around. Never mind all the parasite collectors and leeches scalpers who only complained because they were stupid and short-sighted enough to treat a TCG as if it was an investment.
To be clear, Mana Crypt is far far stronger than Sol Ring. Sol Ring is very good, but it is far less explosive than Crypt. Ring on turn 1 doubles your mana, but cuts you off from coloured mana which severely limits what you can play with it. Crypt on 1 straight up TRIPLES your mana and having access to colour mana from your land play really opens up your options. Crypt sets you 2 turns ahead for the entire game including turn 1. Two extra turns. It could ding you for 3 every turn and it would still be completely insane.
Yea but that's only the first turn of the game on literally every other turn sol ring is better also their reasoning for the banning is bs because they themselves admitted that if a player with explosive start will get targeted by all other players
@@person-ol5uf You're actually just wrong. Crypt is a better card than sol ring, full stop. Crypt in commander has no real downside, the damage is irrelevant compared to the advantage it creates. If you look at the other formats where both sol ring and crypt are legal (canadian and 7 point highlander) crypt is a higher pointed card, because it's just better, and that's in a format where the life loss actually matters.
Sol Ring into Arcane Signet or a different mana rock is a common play, it isn't coloured mana but really it enables even more ramp the turn you play it, or on the next turn. So it doesn't really cut you off from anything. Like I get the idea that there's an opportunity cost of playing basically anything over a basic, but that's a deckbuilding problem from introducing cards you don't really need. Sol Ring doesn't go into 100% of decks optimally, whereas Crypt maybe does, but that wasn't the EDH committee's statement.
I just want to give a tiny amount of perspective as a cEDH player. 3 of the bans I'm genuinely fine with, Nadu isn't oppressively powerful but being non-deterministic makes it hell, glad it's gone. Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt are weird bans but sure. Dockside was a necessary cap on the format, but also Dockside was a bandaid on the bullet hole of no efficient artifact punishments. Dockside is a problem but red was already relatively weak blue and black didn't need the boost. But also the ban list has never been for cEDH so my local community is genuinely quite fine with the ban list. It makes oomphe and null rod way more important, now in every deck, but I don't know if that's necessary a bad thing. I think these really are good long term bans, but until something replaces dockside, stax is a mandatory deck in every cEDH pod, which as a stax player is fine to me, but I know will effect some. Idk I think it's nuanced but overall a good ban announcement. All my anger is towards WOTC for poor reprints and busted design, all love to RC ❤
To be fair to the guest, I kinda thought the same thing quickly reading Mana Crypt. It's a bit unintuitve that the losing the flip doesn't really punish your mana at all, as the coin flip mechanic is supposed to be the downside to the upside of two free mana every turn.
The One Ring damage effect should've been an emblem. Then it would've been fair since you take the damage even if you flicker it or re-play or something. It would've made even more sense thematically since Bilbo suffered from the side effects of the ring even when he didn't have it anymore.
i don't disagree but the effect would work best as the burden counters being put on you as the player, and you could either build the effect into the counters like rad counters or have the ring say "at the beginning of your upkeep, lose 1 life for each burden counter you have"
I think complaining about the economy when the average player doesn't resell their cards is silly. Most people are going to keep their cards regardless of cost. A very small few are playing the economy game.
yea I think WotC aswell as the rules committee tend to care far too much about these investors. gameplay fun should be the center to build releases and bans around. fun cards should never be on a reserve list, for instance. and cards that are bad for zhe format should get banned even if they cost a lot
magic noob here, would Nadu not be fine (good not broken) if you moved the Ending quotation to before the this can only be activated twice. so that you can only do this twice per turn no matter the number of monsters you have
It would definitely keep it much more under control. It'd still be pretty strong - draw 2 cards on your turn, maybe ramp, draw even more cards on opponent's turn if you can interact at instant speed is still a *really* good card.
yeah a lot of peoples reaction to seeing nadu for the first time was is that quotation in the wrong place. it would still be good as a draw 2 every turn but would be much harder to break you'd need all the current combo pieces plus a way to repeatably blink nadu might still be broken but certainly less broken
It would but I don't think that format works. It would just have to be a trigger on nadu that's limited. Something that gives an ability to everything but restricts it globally isn't a template they'd do. The game has no way of recognizing different instances of the given effect as "this ability" so that wording just wouldn't work. If the clause where outside the quotes as is it would try to restrict a trigger on nadu, which it doesn't have.
Moving the quotation wouldn't accomplish that result because templating it that way would make it nonsense in the eyes of the rules. You would need to change the way the entire paragraph is worded. But yes, if you made it trigger twice per turn total, it would likely be fine.
My favorite part about this as a yugioh player is how all the yugioh players are like "yep these are all great bans, the game is clearly better now" and just not understanding why mtg players are mad. And then we hear about commander being highlander rules and double down on the bans being good. Like it can't all be people who hate the game but gamble on it like stocks, right?
30:08 as a tearlament player (the deck cimoooooooo is talking about) i can tell you that they did not in fact hit 6 cards in the deck, but 9 cards (if you count the elf ban which you should cus it was abused in tearlament). tho this deck was compleatly insane, it was the most fun deck they ever printed ever.
Claiming Dockside's first printing was as a rare on a commander product is not exactly a fair explanation. It was in a commander precon, effectively a commander structure deck. That rare status just means it was in only 1 precon of the 5. Although it's a rare you weren't looking for it in a pack, it was a guaranteed card... they knew its power and knew it would get people to buy products, so they printed it to mythic the first time it was in a pack.
Ok, can someone explain this to me because I feel like I'm going insane: People are mad because an unofficial body banned cards from a casual format that people mostly play with house rules anyway? So there's literally nothing stopping you from continuing to play with cards you already own as long as other players agree? And people are upset because cards lost resale value when again, as a casual format, there's literally nothing to stop you from printing an image of the card and putting it into a sleeve? MTG players, please seek help.
Amen. Though there is a competetive scene it's mostly a casual format and competitors should know that cards can always be hit with a ban. Especially if they own expensive mana cheating cards.
In theory yes, but in practice this doesn't work nearly as well for people who don't have established, static play groups. CGB allows his friend Ben to play his banned Commander, that's great, I'd do the same, but I wouldn't expect it from randoms at a store. A lot of people, as alluded to in the video, would just respond with a blanket "no" to every request of playing a banned card and another big percentage would be suspicious at best of you requesting it. Similarly for proxies, even though the majority seems to be ok with them. This is a very common criticism regarding the handling of the format, that the banlist should help regulate pick-up games but its inconsistent nature makes it difficult and the "rule 0" conversation isn't nearly as effective with strangers as it is with friends. A lot of people play Commander like it's board games or D&D and, I'm sure a lot of people would agree, D&D with strangers can be miserable.
@@MrMarnel Unless you're playing D&D within a format that has everything laid out, with a very clear 'Rules as written, there's no room for interpretation.' mentality. I used to play Living Greyhawk and that was a blast, but it was very clear that even the nonsensical rules were going to be followed to the letter, and any deviations needed to be clarified before each session (like saying that 50 feet of chain had a grappling hook attached to one end) while you had to be prepared for someone to say "No, you can't do that.". I had a character that had that, because a normal rope wouldn't have held the weight of both them and all of their gear. I think that the rules committee, in their chasing of 'casual' forgot that making all the rules very clear is a great way to make something casual, and the community forgot what makes a casual format casual is the social construct around them. Like I would have no problem with some stranger going "Can I run Jeweled Lotus in my Commander Commander deck? It's a deck that only has cards that have the word commander printed somewhere on it, and it's one of like 3 ramp in the whole thing." to a pod I'm in. But having that person being ok with the pod going "Not in the mood right now, maybe in another game." _should_ be the standard for asking that question. We should be asking permission to run broken cards and not asking forgiveness for rolling the table.
Same with the people that obsessively go "I need more than one copy of this card" because they run it in multiple decks. Swap the one copy between all decks if it costs so much, hell you can make it easy by only buying one type and color of sleeve then swapping the copy around. When I played I ended up putting everything in silver dragonshields personally, made it easier to swap cards around in legacy where the cost of cards is way higher and I didn't want to shell out for a dozen underground sea or some nonsense. Then there's some financial wisdom of if you can't afford to buy this card and see it banned, don't buy it in the first place. Proxy it. People should have been doing that since MTG 30 came about where they charged a grand for 60 fake magic cards that you cannot play in sanctioned magic.
well mana crypt is unbelievable better then sol ring because sol ring eats the 1 color of mana you have in turn 1 while mana crypt lets you play some 3 mana card taht has only 1 color pip. thats unbelievable huge difference. also the main problem is that there are TO MANY of these cards in the format so the ban of one of these cards already improves teh format. as well as sol ring being literally worth nothing so anyone can have one for no cost and its in every precon xD
I'm surprised he didn't connect 'you can play both' with 'and you can play mana crypt to play sol ring', at the very least. I guess when everythings free normally for you, though...
I have honestly been really surprised with some of the uproar about these bans, I thought people were going to be cheering the streets to celebrate(which some still are but some are not). If you asked pretty much anyone before the list if any of these cards were good for the game or not and weather they should be banned i'd say that the vast majority of players would have agreed that all of them deserved the axe. Now though, because people who did invest in them are looking at the prices and upset. Which I kinda get, but its not like these cards tanked to nothing, so unless you just bought them recently and never got to play, its not like you're taking much more of a hit than a reprint would have done if you just resell them now. And the stuff about "why'd they hit X and not Y" if also kinda fair because other stuff is just as much of an issue, but id rather less stuff that I dont like seeing on the table than more stuff I dont like seeing at the table, and this applies to both casual and cEDH for me. But maybe their is something else that I didnt mention here that im missing, so if someone is upset about these bans id be interested to hear why.
CEDH player here. They are objectively good bans. Dockside being banned is genuinely exciting and is making me look forward to tinkering with my deck to adjust. Nadu, everyone wanted that banned and no one is complaining about that. But, jewelled lotus and mana crypt being banned, despite that being an objectively good decision, hurts and is annoying. Reprints have had nowhere near the impact on price that this ban has, mana crypt is down $200 and jewelled lotus is down ~$100 and they are only going lower. It's frustrating because so much core to my deck has been hit at once and now to play the format I love I have to scramble to piece together something functional, in the process losing money to cards I think are good ideas but don't work out. It is a massive change in deck building and heuristics that I immediately have to change and adjust to, all while my collection of cards I worked my ass of over the last year to get because I can't play proxies plummet in value by hundreds. It's annoying because these bans should of been happening over the last 5 years and not all at once. It's also spat in the face of what most CEDH players were saying should be banned, whilst stripping cards at the core of the format. Everyone does agree with the dockside ban though. Rather than ban rhystic study, the best card in the format that oppressively and annoyingly takes over games in an unhealthy manner. They ban fast mana, the thing that makes CEDH, CEDH.
@@jackcois6077 Mystic remorez (whatever the cumulative upkeep version of rhistic study is) is generally better though isn't it? Regardless yes, things that are broken in 3+ player should probably go but fast mana isn't healthy for deck variety or people's wallets. Would have been much better if they were proactive but better late than never so hopefully fewer turns of commander are playing ramp solitaire.
The majority of Commander players are either celebrating in the street or shrugging because they were using proxies for any cards that expensive anyway. The online drama is a combination of bans always making for good click-bait and copium from people who think any sort of collectible is an "investment". All of those cards were going to go down in price eventually like every other non-reserve card that is OP, it just happened more suddenly in this case.
So I think the issue the cedh community has isn't these bans in some ideal sense, but the bans in the current context of the format. Red, as a color in the current metagame, was only viable thanks to two cards - Underworld Breach and Dockside. These two cards _singlehandedly_ justified having red in your commander's color identity, maybe occasionally splashing a few multicolor cards like ignoble hierarch depending on circumstances. And now Dockside is gone. So now a lot of decks with red color identity are now so much worse that they're no longer viable. That ban without propping up red in cedh first just wipes out large swaths of the already existing decks. Jeweled Lotus has similar problems! It allowed casting of expensive commanders that didn't see much play previously in cedh. For some time one of the best decks has been Tymna Kraum, which was hit twice by these bans. Kraum being a 5 cost commander, and being red. This is just going to encourage the low cost partner commanders, and people already think Tymna Thrasios is the obvious beneficiary. Not that it _needs_ it. (Or, I guess, RogSi, even though it's red, just because every other deck might be hit worse.)
@@jackcois6077plus in CEDH dockside was the one card letting decks keep up with the simic decks and the infinite mana combos, now Gruul, and rakdos decks are so far at a disadvantage they may start failing to compete. Even with dockside there where colors that struggled to compete in CEDH if they didn't have blue and black for thoricle and counters. Now it's amplified.
Oh people are coping hard after these bans. I've never seen so many people who laughed at "rule 0 convos" suddenly embracing it just as an out so they can keep their easy-mode cards in their decks.
Oh it's great, because the thing about Rule 0 is that the person who is running it needs to mention that they're running it, and everyone else can (and should) say no to playing a game with that card.
i mean in our play group one of the guys has a pretty mid goblin deck that happens to have a dockside in it with no way to loop it. he is lucky if the deck plays at precon level. he can 100% keep dockside in his goblin deck if i play with him
@@dragondest4 No sarcasm, this is 100% what Rule 0 is for. To allow people to run janky, fun, and/or weird decks. What the banlist is for is to set a standard for strangers while also stop someone trying to pull a fast one over everyone else in the pod. Better for a table for someone to ask permission to run a significantly more powerful card (or cards) then to ask forgiveness after they stomp everyone else.
So glad Cimooooooooo mentioned the promo cards inside of the manga. Bruh so I've played this deck called Cyber Dragons for a long time. I think you were shown the original Cyber Dragon card in just the context of, "This guy broke the game here he is" but it wasn't for the actual archetype itself. They gave it some support a few years back and made it a good enough deck to be considered rogue, but I remember one of the supporting cards was released in Japan as a manga exclusive promo card meaning you'd need three subscriptions to the manga ahead of time in order to have received a playset of the card. I was so freaking out, but they printed it in the TCG as just a card in a special-ish set. Some of the manga exclusive cards have been absolutely busted tho like not just for one deck but just universally broken for basically every deck in existence at the time of printing.
@@fredwin Not at all. Its just objectively bad to have Lotus type turn 1 mana boosts in a format where you are only allowed to have only 1 copy of each card in the deck. That just means that allowing such cards will make luck more important than smart play. They should have banned Sol Ring too. Then it would always be an equal start for everyone in Commander.
@@Ambander-p3x Yeah, and that has nothing to do with my reply. I'm saying it's only good for the health of the format if they don't print something similar to replace it.
Magic players and Yugioh players both have abusive relationshios with their respective card game companies, but different sides and different types of abuse. With Yugioh, players just have to take whatever Konami gives them and that's that. There is no bargaining, there is no back and forth, Konami does a thing, and Yugioh players just have to deal with it and be happy. MtG players, on the other hand, are in a verbally abusive relationship with WotC. If Wizards breathes the wrong way, MtG players will jump down their throat and demand an explanation.
The Solring cope from some is weird to me as a yugioh player. That is like saying "They set Snakeeyes Poplar to 1" and then someone comes along and says "Whuell! Why did they ban two copies of Poplar and not the 3rd one? Heh!" Like dude: Sometimes it is okay to keep one copy of a card around and ban others. Especially when one card is essencially a "Play an extra copy of a sol ring".
it's kinda like the dynamic between card draw effects and Exodia, it's a feels good mechanic for players but if the amount of easily accessible card draws reached critical mass, Exodia could suddenly becomes the only thing worth running. The RC basically picked their poison by banning these generic mana sources, especially because Sol Ring is given such a plot armor by WotC and Mana Crypt are printed very sparingly as a chase card, it's easy to ban one and preserve the other
Wizards cannot be trusted to print responsible cards. Everything SHOULD go through standard, if only to keep cards sane. Exceedingly broken and toxic shit should be banned, and I support the RC for doing so, but they need to get off their ass and deal with MORE, not less. Those 4 years of hibernation were fucking unacceptable
Tbh, good riddance to bad bullshit. These cards were too powerful. Before the "investors" crawl over me, screw them. This is a game. Not an investment.
Some people are not willing to proxy and want to play with the real cards. And people don`t buy cards willing to burn the money, but expecting that they keep their price somewhat - so you can sell them later when you want to get out of mtg again. Before forking out over a 100 $ for a card the (semi-)sane person will try to evaluate the risk of that specific card going to value valley at 0 $. If you don´t do that - sorry but you are plain stupid. If you are ripping a draft box expecting a return of only a couple bucks in card value, you wouldn`t buy it. Many players bought themself a crypt, seeing that CRC never mentioned the card to be banworthy and it being a staple in cedH for a long time. To get your value ripped off after extensiv marketing of these cards by WOTC is surely an evaluation factor the CRC has to have in mind when deciding on bans. You dont have to be an "investor" to be financially hit by this absurd ban. The victim is the whole playerbase.
@S1m0nBG I don't think you get the whole picture here. This is a hobby. Not the stock market. Any expensive purchase comes with extreme risk that you personally choose to take on yourself. In 0 other hobbies can you make a $190 purchase and expect to get your money back after you've had your fun. I do have some sympathy for your wallet. However, your wallet is not, and never should be, a valid reason to leave a card untouchable.
@@S1m0nBGalso thats a personal choice. You are responsible for your personal choices. Its a hobby space. Are you here to have fun? No then leave. You think this is the stock market? Take your money and go actually play the stock market. Otherwise stop crying foul. Your wallet and your personal financial decisions are not anyone's problem but your own
The big difference price wise between mana crypt and mana vault is that mana crypt was reprinted numerous times, especially in early days before fast mana was clamped down on. It dates back to alpha and it got reprinted in all the base sets up to 5th edition albeit at rare. Then it's first reprinting after 5th ed. in paper was kaladesh invention/super limited with a few printings after that one with double masters and ultimate masters being the bigger prints of it, but still limited being master sets. Mana crypt though the book promo was quite rare back in the day. All the modern era reprints have been limited prints for it too because it's a notable fast mana card that is up there with moxen in powerlevel.
I think it's neat that, no matter how expensive a Yugioh meta deck is. Eventually, every card in the deck will be reprinted to oblivion, so 15 years old Timmy can build the deck with his allowance.
Something that took me (as just a magic player) a while to realize is how magic treats "rarity" differently than most other card games. From what I can tell, most card games tie rarity directly to treatments. Things like borderless, alternate art, and foiling treatments are the "rare" and "mythic" equivalent, but the cards in those treatments can show up as commons in a regular treatment. In magic, each unique card has a rarity, and it is marked as that rarity despite any alternate treatment. A common in foil alternate frame is still a common. The alternate treatments and foiling can have different rarities, or can have dedicated slots in packs where the commons in that treatment will show up more frequently than the rares in the same treatment, but both share the slot in the pack.
what yugioh players don't get is that finance bros existed in magic before even the yugioh manga without the card game was made. literally the existence reserve list is saying we want finance bros in our game since the inception
@@goldenox2424 it kept the entire game afloat for a long time, now they have sm new players every release wotc doesn’t need or want finance bros anymore
Reserved list was more to make sure stores would keep making orders and stocking singles rather than individual “finance bros”. Card shops had just seen the huge baseball card market crash and were understandably concerned about Magic cards losing value when chronicles was printed. The market has outgrown the need for the reserve list but it did help Magic survive at that time.
@@frosty980 The excuse that they gave at the time (and still do) is the backlash from players, not from stores. Where players were whinging about their cards not being worth anything because they were printed again.
@@gabecastillo1634 lmao, how did investor hoarders keep MTG alive? WotC never got a single penny from them, they buy their cards from second hand sellers.
It's free to proxy, and while having less explosive starts is maybe good for a more balanced play experience I enjoy seeing my opponents do cool stuff and personally I love edh because it's so broken.
I pulled one, and always bring nice proxies for the rest of my pod to use or I pull it out. “I can’t afford the card so it should be banned” is ridiculous.
That *was* going to be the reprint policy, waaaaaay back in the 90s. The first of these reprint sets was called Chronicles. And the reaction broke the game. The wailing. The shrieking. The rage hurled at WotC. How *dare* they devalue our cards, they cried! According to MaRo, the game almost died, there, on the spot. And certainly not because the next set was *Homelands.* And so, the Reserve List was created, with a promise to never again White Border any more of those most precious and valuable rares and uncommons. Until the end of the Urza cycle, and WotC realized how badly they'd shot themselves by forbidding themselves from reprinting all this.
To be fair, even though we don’t have the same reprint policy, We have that reprint policy as the print policy for standard sets, which is even better.
His reaction show why we should have more bans and reprints in commander to get people to realize they are spending money in a game, not an investment, that losing value from a ban sucks, but it is better for everyone in the long run
I used to play Yugioh before moving on to Magic. For sure Yugioh is more accessible than Magic, in terms of prices. Yes, some cards tend to skyrocket in price when released, but the reprints are very nice for casual play.
I think a thing of note about the one ring in modern vs commander is in modern you can run multiples. This is relevant because the card legendary. You can drop a new one on board to replace the old in order to reset the counters if need be. Theres plenty of other things as well obvouisly but I think that one is the most interesting.
@@RumpledNutskin yeah is restrictive but still wildly unfair and should be banned. I mean i tried to use a proxy and in an artifact deck it's just broken. Playing a metalworker turn 1 lets you drop your hand turn 2 if left unchecked
@@scuffedwizard it isn't that great in COMMANDER. It only casts artifacts, which don't tend to end the game. Yes, it's a broken card, and can't be legal in other 60 card formats, but in commander, what does it do for you other than accelerate out some mana rocks? It doesn't even see much play in cEDH because of how restrictive it is
@@shiragi8426 so you need a workshop, a 3 mana 1/2, and a handful of artifacts in a singleton format as your opening hand? You can't ban a card because it's only good when paired with another card that has summoning sickness
One thing that is important to note about cEDH: the format can be so fast, that going last is a huge disadvantage. Dockside had the upside that it helped the 4th seat come back into the game. Dockside also, arguably, made red viable on it's own in cEDH. Only time will tell, with the meta shift, if that was true.
I'm also a yugioh player and like... no? If you play mana crypt and a land turn 1 you have 3 mana while everyone else has 1 mana and you get to keep the mana crypt and gain the 2 mana every turn. That's like way better then a double summon
Seeing you two colab now im really itching for a video series on the history of magic the gathering like cimoo did for yugioh where the players gor through the sets and play the game as it was back then.
I thought EDH is initially a fanmade format (may be formally supported now but initially fanmade), why don't just branch out? Everyone who wants to play with Mana Crypt and Nadu can play with them, and those who don't can play without. Isn't that why rule 0 talk is a thing in Commander anyways?
like the rule 0 thing also mean you could play banned cards if the group let's you, unlike Wotc the rules commite will not send the pinkertons after you, the most affected people would be the Competive edh people as those bans would be enforced but separating themselves from the most popular format is not great especially because this would not be such a big deal for most casual players which could mean that there is way less interest in their format, like they could do it for sure but it is not a easy thing to do
The issue lies when playing with randoms at LGS. Not everyone is going to agree, so the banlist is there for those who play casually at these game stores. With friends or people you know then you also need to convince all of them why you should be allowed to play with the said cards. Thats why rule 0 doesnt always work.
@@RedThebaron97 had a feeling that this ban is pretty much only impacting the cEDH community when they play in sanctioned events, or even outside of events bc it's just abiding with the spirit of the format edit: the vibe is like "It sucks but dems the rules so we just have to accept it and move along"
@@zandaman802 I think if a table aren't willing to rule 0 allow mana crypts those would be the tables that are also not keen on having one dropped on them out of nowhere even back when it's legal. Conversely tables that are used to playing on that power level won't mind with the rule 0.
@jamesaditya5254 you also have to factor in that because of the bans people are going to take them out meaning they will be less willing to as they won't have it while they let the person rule 0'ing will have access to it.
Yu-Gi-Oh player with the completely reasonable and on point takes. Respect. He sussed out the logic that were behind the bans and evaluated the cards in practically the same way as the RC which is pretty indicative imo. Both of y'all have a reasonable take and I agree. I think in like a month tops people will have given up on it and be like eh it's fine and just whine about how they think it would have been better with no bans. They'll drop the idea of trying to break off and depose the RC and make their own formats or whatever. Because people are very happy to complain when they don't agree with something. But making your own format and managing it and everything else associated with it is a lot of work. And none of those people are ready to do it themselves and it's even harder when you want to overthrow an established format to make your own spin off.
I appreciate the coolheadedness surrounding this banning, despite you saying it probably cost you 2k or so. Im so frustrated with people babyraging over this ban because they thought of THEIR CARDBOARD TOYS as an investment. Gaming hobbies aren't an investment.
Commander playtesters: this might be too strong Card designers: ok we'll remove the problematic part, but in echange we buff it until it's stupidly insane The commander banlist isn't "you shouldn't play these exact cards", it is "you shouldn't play cards like that". Banning Sol Ring is not possible, but I think it leads to better game if no one plays it (except in cEDH) I don't have the kind of money where I can afford a 100+$ card, but if I did and I wanted to put it in several decks I would change the sleeve depending on which deck I'm playing instead of buying multiples Because artefacts are often colorless, they have the potential to be the strongest cares in the game. Cost reduction, and effects that care about the number of artefacts you have (tokens being artefact may have been a design mistake, they should have made a different type imo) can and do get out of hand
The rules committee was not tied at all to wotc. They just had mana crypt in a set recently. It makes no sense to ban it monetarily. Additionally, since commander is a casual format, the banlists purpose is to let uniformed players know what cards are scary. Theres nothing to stop my friends and i from playing decks full of band cards. Many of the rules committee members were youtubers and were tightly knitted into the community. They also were completely unpaid. The rules committee was a fully voluntary thing. Its disgusting that memebers of the rules committee were threatened and harassed to the point it got to. Do. Not. Threaten. People. Especially over a card game.
I'm surprised the Magic community are being such b*tches about these bans. I don't play Yugioh but I know they have crazy bans and I was hoping for these cards to get banned. Every time I've encountered Mana Crypt and Dockside, the games have been terrible. I only encountered Jeweled Lotus once but it was a non-game too.
The cedh games with these are equalizers, they make certain archetypes work that won't normally be fast enough against the other decks. Plus these cost a lot of money, this could easily have cost people hundreds of dollars for people buying cards that should usually be eternally available in decks.
@@natanarucounter point: uad they banned all fast mana (1-2 mana cards that make more then they cost) we may see agro become a viable strategy in commander again
@leonvalenzuela4096 then green would take over, unless you ban all ramp in general. Aggro suffers from having multiple opponents, and 40 health life totals in commander. When you have 3 opponents who all can interact with you having an agressive strategy that makes you a target is generally going to be detrimental to you.
@@natanaru I didn't give a expectation to green, if it cost 0-2 mana & makes more then it cost to play, it should get axed; doesn't matter if its part of it's color identity; hell if it's going to make more decks viable & leads to a healthier format, I'm for the banning of Bird of Paradise & its kin.
@leonvalenzuela4096 It still wouldn't solve the issue of aggro, and you would also be banning a massive amount of cards in precons as well. Plus green would still win with a majority of their ramp being 3 cmc or higher. And certain commanders would be banned out due to being 1 or 2 cmc dorks. I think this idea goes against the idea of the format as well, this format should have some explosive starts because of how big the deck is and it being a singleton format.
Nadu also peaked at $13 because even before the tournament, we all knew it was busted, and the ban was just a matter of time. Edit: Cimoooo needs to learn about the Reserved List. Also, typically if a card reaches $100+ in Standard, it's good enough to be played in older formats, like Sheoldred.
Really depends on what you consider fun. My friends and I enjoy high power games where everyone is trying to win. Most of our decks aren’t quite cEDH tier, but they’re strong. We have decks of all power levels if other people don’t want that sort of game though. We have fun from the act of playing. Winning is just a bonus. People who act like EDH should be a purely casual format are just as toxic as people who act like cEDH is the only way to play
@@tyrusdalet And you know what? Your group of friends can say that none of these are actually banned, and no one would stop you. What it does mean is that the ban list stops people from blindsiding those cards on strangers. We now have to Rule 0 these cards in, instead of Rule 0ing them out.
@@leadpaintchips9461 we already have. These bans aren’t going to stop blindsiding of strong decks against casual pods. It’s just going to make starts of those decks slightly less explosive. But that’s not the issue in those situations. It’s Rhystic Study, tutor density, esper sentinel, bowmasters, One Ring, thoracle. The nature of the decks you’re complaining about isn’t these 3 cards, it’s the entire paradigm they’re built around. To “fix” this, the RC needs to ban more cards on power level. But that’s antithetical to the format; or rather, it has been for years.
"It looks like a mana monolith or something."
Wait until he learns about Manalith.
I was also thinking of Basalt Monolith since that taps for 3 as well.
when he said that I had to check if Manalith is a card and I'm glad it is
You go for that and not the classic Grim Monolith? Should I feel old?
So happy for rarren to have shown me you two. I dont play heartstone but i love magic and yugioh content you make cemo is so good
The triumvirate of card game UA-cam
I'm glad to be a fan of Cimo introducing me to CGB
(Rarran kinda introduced us to himself XD)
I got to know Rarran through these "guess if the card is good or bad" videos. And through him I got to know Cimoooooooo and Voxy.
Funny enough, I don't play any of these games currently but have a little in the past and love card games in general. UA-cam sent me a Rarran video with a guest once, watched all those, picked my favorites of them and am now subscribed to Rarran, CGB and Cimo. Maybe soon to be Voxy
used to play hs and duel links (now I only play magic) so they're all p entertaining lol
Cimo accidentally saying Mana Vault for the censored Mana Vault is absurd lmao
Truly wild. Then going on an unprompted explanation as to why he thinks the card is called Mana Vault. How coincidental
And CGBs pokee face or bad hearing didn't have up anything 😂
@@joec2221 He did say he saw Twitter malding about the bans, so maybe he just saw in on Twitter and remembered the name?
@@matikkkii3482 I think he knows more about magic than he lets on and plays dumb for content. A bit annoying.
And then said Mana Monolith, pretty close to Grim Monolith
Speaking as a filthy casual, seeing people react to a ban with “oh no, my investment!” is incredibly funny and I want to see it happen more
Cimo: What is devotion to blue?
CGB: My UA-cam channel
I can just imagine CGB calling Cimo when the banlist dropped.
CGB : Hey Cimo you there?
Cimo : Yeah, whats up?
CGB : Hold me.
The youtube "read more" perfectly obscuring your punchline adds so much timing, 11/10
ay bro lemme get in on that i need some holding too
The reprint policy in ygo is correct. People shouldn’t be paying console prices for cardboard
My brother in christ if you where playing modern yugioh you wouldnt type those words. Konami has a dogshit reprint policy. They tell "hey fellow money cow ääähem i mean player we reprinted meta card XYZ!" In reality these mofos reprinted the meta XYZ card but made it a fucking shortprint!
Yeah yu-gi-oh isn't much better honestly. I would just recommend their online clients. The reprint boxes are really nice, but the game is still crazy expensive for the 6th best deck in the locals
The true best printing policy is pokemon tcg, if only I enjoyed the game lol
Nah bro not yugioh, I'd agree with you if you said Pokemon but not yugioh. Konami is almost as bad as WotC when it comes to cards being too expensive.
Alright, I'll take the L, YGO reprints are also shitty, thanks everyone for the info!
This cross game iteractions are quite interesting - they are growing on me.
yeah I'm really glad this genre of video caught on
Agree, really interested :)
Cimoooo made the perfect analogy, yugioh these days is a nadu mirror match
But with force of wills without paying life and removing a blue card from your hand.
@@nachomanrandy Solemn cards are still good, so we do pay life sometimes.
Yugioh is Nadu Vs Hogaak, but where both can play 4 Mental Misstep and 4 Force of Will.
@@minabasejderha5972 is more like half of your deck nadu combo and the other half is force of will and mental misstep
@@minabasejderha5972So why do ppl even play it then?
As a former Yu-Gi-Oh player... "cards games, are never an investment"... i have always seen buying cards as "how much im going to put in" and not really expect to ever make that money back.
I'm also a former yugioh player and I play commander because I got tired of the using banning to force a rotation. I wanted a slow moving fun game that rarely changed much and I wouldn't lose hundreds of dollars overnight. No other commander ban lost anyone more than $100. This a single deck could have lost $300. I use proxies and have over 100 decks, and so far have pulled out 35 cards that are a combination of these cards. If I had bought the real cards I'd be down over $4,000 overnight because I'm pretty sure I have a few more to take out of decks still.
It is still good advice in Magic, Wizards just pretended they didn't make decisions around the secondary market for a very long time, and some people deluded themselves into thinking they could invest and it wouldn't be a stupid risk. So there are some absolutely unhinged people right now I'd imagine, I don't play magic anymore.
@@atk9989 This is the part I didn't get even from the vid. Why do you need 35 copies of each of these staple cards for 35 decks? Wouldn't you just take the 1 copy apiece "shell" and move them over to each new deck you play?
@@Rynjinivar Moving a card between decks is really annoying, although at that price I think it's probably worth the hassle
@@GG-bw5qd Sure, I could understand buying a couple or three of them (though I personally wouldn't bother) but for these cards you run in every deck I just...wouldn't put them in a deck, I'd keep them in the binder and just slap them into whatever deck I'm running.
What people have done to the rules committee over this is disgusting and anyone who had that response deserved to lose their money and be shunned out of the game
It was such a big baby response, over reasonable bans
What did they do? Im imagining treats or something cause they're mad they cant spam 100$ staples in casual tables
@JeffBryant-e2t threats of violence and harrasment all over members of the rules committees pages strangely focused one of the female members. Classic toxic comunity shit.
@@JeffBryant-e2tthe outcry was so great that the Rules Committee ceded control of the Commander Banlist to WotC, effectively making it an official format and stripping the Rules Committee of any ownership or power to enforce their previous rulings.
@@RiverM8rix but what was the extent of the complaints just vocal disappointment or did they go crazy over it? Also yeah the bans were super reasonable all it did was stop pub stomps and ever so mildly effect cedh
I feel bad for the legitimate players that bought some of these cards but I'm extremely happy to see these cards go, especially mana crypt. Take the proxy pill.
Facts. Its nicer to see less staples in a format that is supposed to be creative.
Yeah the ban was good. Magic has a resource system for a reason.
I own JL (2x) and Crypt (1x) and honestly from a balancing standpoint? No problem. The optics though? 2 Cards that were reprinted last year as chase cards to push product banned this quick? Damn that hurts my consumer confidence, since all 3 of those were packed and I did "chase" them. I don't know but banning a card like Nadu that was a balancing mistake shortly after printing feels different than banning high power staples after using them to push product. I know the RC is independent from WOTC, but after this they need better lines of communication. Dont reprint something if its at risk of getting banned. Once reprinted maybe a 2 or 3 year period in which it definitely won't be banned? So yeah, to me the issue wasn't the reasoning for the ban but the mixed signals that are sent when cards are reprinted shortly prior.
@@datmuhq6821 I agree but also feel like my main problem with that is specifically wizards only reprinting these card in incredibly short supply in premium products only contributes to the outrageous pricetag. It's of course unclear (at least to me) whether or not the rc would have known these chase reprints were coming and could have banned these cards earlier or if wizards strong armed them into leaving them unbanned for the time so they could sell more product. Either way I feel the pushed commander specific cards and exploiting expensive staples to sell packs is incredibly anti consumer regardless of bans
Hurts to see the lotus I pulled crash in value, but it's understandable. I put in in my deck instead of cashing it in, and I never even got to cast it. lmao. I need to unload it quickly to get something out of it, I'm guessing it ill keep dropping.
I want to see Mana Cave now. 0 mana artifact that taps to add 2, doesn't untap during untap phase. At beginning of upkeep, if Mana Cave is tapped flip a coin, if you win untap it.
Mana screw is an uncard with a similar ability.
coinflip decks would LOVE this
theres so many ways to abuse it still
This is still a better Mana Vault and a type of fast mana that probably shouldn't be printed for commander. Most decks would still run it if they had access to it.
Maybe make it so you take the 3 only when it untaps, so you don't have the feels bad of taking damage and getting no mana? And it feels like you're getting something for the life you're losing when it does happen.
When even a non magic players can call out what’s banned and what’s not, you know they did the right thing banning those cards.
Cimo has played magic in the past and knows more then he lets on.
@@tulejumal he has played commander exactly once. So he understands the base rules, just not as informed on what is good/meta
I feel he has a good read on magic because both games are busted
I want to come with a slightly different perspective for this banlist:
I mostly play Yugioh, but I've been getting more into Mtg recently. I mostly play the simulators because I work closing shifts which makes it difficult to attend LGS locals, but commander is one of those formats that doesn't need a tournament structure to play, so I've been considering making a commander deck (Gargos Fight and Bite, I was thinking) for a small amount of time.
This banlist has made the format feel so much more accessible. I know I didn't NEED the Jeweled Lotus or Mana Crypt or the expensive staples like it, and I honestly wasn't intending to spend that much on just a single card. However, the idea that I don't have to feel outgunned when my opponent drops a Jeweled Lotus on me, that like, I literally just wanted the win less or else I would have spent more for it, in a casual format where I am intending casual enjoyment, having that reassurance feels nice.
I think the quiet part of this banlist is that it was intended in large part to bring down the price of commander, and I'm glad they were specific and direct in targeting the cards that were A) Practically mandatory, B) Created a mismatched gamestate, and C) were prohibitively expensive, and also that they're willing to go for a card like Jeweled Lotus, impressive as Commander is literally the only format that card is playable in, not even "Everything is playable" Vintage keeps that card safe.
Overall, I'm extremely happy about this banlist, and it makes me want to try more commander as a result. I know it stings to have a card you spent so much on get banned from under you. For Yugioh, I remember building a core for a Mist Valley Deck in September 2013 and then Birdman got limited to 1 a month before the TCG got Harpie Dancer, back when the TCG and OCG had a unified banlist. Had basically the entire shell and was just waiting for that one card to release and my deck got banned before I ever got to play it. It's a lot less money comparatively, but for a high schooler, the $100+ I spent on that deck just for me to never be able to take it to locals was devastating. But you know what? I didn't let the banlist stop me. I still played that deck. I played it with friends who knew this was a pet deck I cared a lot about, even if it wasn't tournament legal. And it's still one of my favorite decks despite never being TCG legal (was technically OCG legal for like 5 months). I hope Mtg players can find the same joy I did then.
From the accessibility perspective, yes. The ban is great. The problem for many people seems to be that there were no communications from the RC, and that this ban was dropped out of nowhere even when wotc reprinted jeweled lotus and mana crypt as early as last year. So it feels bad for players who invest in the past few months thinking they could play this card at their LGS... (ig they could rule 0 it but still that very much depends on the LGS policy on this).
"Practically mandatory"
JLo was in 7% of decks. It was mandatory only if you were playing in very warped local metas. (Or cedh, I guess, but in cedh it was actually healthy.)
To be fair most people have your mindset. I've never seen anyone at my card shop drop a Mana Vault or something of similar price, CGB does because he's a pro player playing with other pro players. Although once in a while someone might rip a $50 in a pack so you might see something interesting every now and then.
I mean CGB actually said that he wasn't running them for a while because he found the game was more fun when they weren't in the deck because it led to less unbalanced game states
@@opposite342 they had been openly talking about looking at these cards on Twitter for years. Anyone complaining is just butthurt they can't as easily pubstomp anymore.
I dont like the way people say they just lost a lot of money because of these bans. You lost that money when you bought the card however long ago. (Notice how I didnt say invest)
Whoever buys these overpriced, op cards to play a commander game with their friends deserve it.
Proxies! Always proxy, it's freaking commander. It's all about big, dumb, multiplayer fun.
To give you some perspective, some have local cedh tournament at their LGS which requires to have physical copy of cards, you were then required to buy those for the tournament, and now that they are banned, you don't have the money to buy the replacement card
some people like having pricey cards, that's the reason why they're pricy in the first place. If no-one wanted to own powerful cards they'd all be pennies anyway. Shitting on people for that is just petty.
@@thatoneguy3840they're not expensive because of their power. They're expensive because they don't get reprinted as much so there's less in circulation. And that's not counting collector's hoarding them and not even playing them. Cardboard shouldn't be worth 100$ period. That's the problem. If WotC would just print more copies, they would be worth waaay cheaper
I will never forget the banlist for YGO during the dark days a few years ago when they changed nothing on the list, and Cimo's reaction was the first time I heard his curse. It was like hearing a nun swear. You just didn't expect it.😂
Physical Card games have this weird culture (especially MTG) where cards are an "investment" in peoples mind? Like, you buy cards to play with them they arent stocks and bonds. Or you're a collector, in which case you're going to collect and hold them forever. A cards price tanking isnt "taking your money", everyone always tells me about the price of their stuff but I've yet to ever meet someone thats actually selling theirs.
That said, it obviously feels bad if you just bought the card and it got banned. I do feel for those people, but in the end its probably healthier that they're gone and thats just an unfortunate circumstance for those people- shouldnt be too many since its not like there was a reason to have a surge in buys recently
100%. To me, the only entities who are investing in cards who should be doing so are game stores which provide a place for people to play as part of their business model.
Idk I took my mana crypt that I paid 100 dollars for thinking I'd be able to play it forever and on the day of the ban toom it to my lgs and sold it for a reverse retrofoil of hallowed fountain... so yeah... I didn't make my money back but at the same time I lost like 50 dollars with that banning especially considering I wanted to sell it a month before what is now the banning due to the power level decrease of the play groups I play with now versus the ones I played with before...
@@d43m0n412 if you wanted to sell it a month before, you could have just sold it a month ago- and its not like that 50$ just vanished, it was spent on the time you did use it for.
stores buy cards from players and have stocks of cards, some stores have lost thousands of dollars overnight, LGS is who is really hurt by this no one cares about some whales, all these cards deserved a ban but they should have spaced it out and communicated they were being looked at, but screw dockside either way
Physical card games allow cards to be sold and traded, which is one advantage you have over digital card games. You also must take into account that the most common way to obtain these cards is through packs which have randomly assorted cards which you cannot predetermine. This allows the playerbase to assign values to cards based on multiple factors like rarity, scarcity, power level and appeal. A lot of these factors are determined by the developers and can impact the value based on reprint frequency or printing cards that interact with them. On top of being valuable in the game, people value them for ephemeral reasons like enjoying the themes or art. On top of everything else, it must be understood that cards are a luxury hobby for those with disposable income. As prices creep higher and higher over the years people get attracted to the sense of exclusivity and will gravitate to something that draws others in. While not an obvious concept up front, it comes back to a very simple point. The last thing people want to be told is that this luxury item that they spent their hard earned money on is no longer worth anything. Time + money being put into something which is then being removed does not feel good for anyone, no matter how you attribute those values.
One format for mana crypt and everything will be cube. Im always excited when expensive cards get banned so i can pick them up cheaply for my cube.
Jewelled Lotus left as the last little kitten in the cardboard box...
I greatly enjoy Cimooo's commentary. It's actually pretty crazy how well he can analyze a card and come to, more or less, the exact reasoning for why a card is or isn't strong or bad or banned. Clearly the mark of a high level player that understands the design philosophy of not just his game, but if card games as a whole.
38:00 tbf it's not *just* vibes, redundancy is a big power factor in commander, having 1 versus 2 sol rings in your 99 is a big shift in reliability. By my reckoning, including mulligan if you have both vault and ring you have near 40% odds of hitting either by turn 3.
Though while it wasn't spelled out explicitly it's really 100% an availability thing: mana crypt was 200 base, sol ring is reprinted so much you get one for half a buck. For a *universally applicable* card that's a huge difference. You can't justify putting a crypt in every deck, you can justify putting a ring in every deck.
Yeah, and ideally Sol Ring would be banned too to make the game even healthier but like they discussed it's basically impossible unlike Mana Crypt. Until someone uses a time machine to prevent them from adding it to every precon it's bound to the format.
@@matthew55793 The only thing I don't get is they talked to WotC about these bans going back a year. They could have said hey, we want to ban sol ring stop putting it in every precon, replace it with some other manarock designed for commander that isn't as broken like a 1 mana artifact that taps for any color in your commander's color identity would be fine and not overbearing because it's 3 mana on turn 2, that isn't breaking the game. Could play 2 manarocks on turn 2 after that, but then it's a really good draw anyways and grim monolith still exists and is legal.
If my math is correct if you have both Mana Crypt and Sol Ring in your deck you have a one in four chance to pull one of them in your opening hand when mulligan is included. If you are will to go down to an opening hand of six you have a one in three chance of pulling one of them. With just one of them for two mulligans (going to six in opening hand) you have less than one in five.
Redundancy is one of the big reasons that Rat Kindred decks are viable. As there are the two or three Rat cards that let you have as many of them as you want in your deck. Knowing that you are going to have access to that one card basically at all times of the game is really powerful, even though the card on its own is pretty weak. You can just put other cards that interact well with it and knowing that the interaction will happen.
gaeas cradle is still legal, it does not seem like it was banned for price+power combination when cradle is legal.
redundancy makes sense as a reason to ban it though. still shoulda banned both.
Cimo doesn't understand magic. It's going to be Mana Cavern, not cave
Naw Mana Vault will become Mana Lockbox
But Cimo, The One Ring does exist in Yu-Gi-Oh. It's called One Day of Peace and it's limited!
Hey that's true. Never thought of that
Not really. One can be repeated and stops all targeting including hand rips, etc and draws you more and more cards as it goes on vs one day that nets both players 1 card and neither player take damage. I would say Royal magical library is closer to it.
@@109968shadowboy My point was more that Cimo says it wouldn't see play, but there is a card he may have forgot about that's worse and is limited.
@@JackCross3 well the limiting factor for the one ring is turns and usually you don’t get any more than 1 or 2 turns in yugioh. So if they printed a monster that can’t be destroyed or targeted and says something like pay 500 LP to draw a card and until the next turn you do not take damage from your opponent.
I would 100% say that’ll be an immediate 3 of and people would run small world just to find it.
One day of peace is limited because it is an ftk card. It doesn't have a once per turn close. Every card that draw for free in yugioh, even in it is a + 0, are kinda sus and will be abused by random ftk decks.
It plays very different to the One ring which stays on the field and which its draw effect add up over time.
One of the nice things about Yugioh is the aggressive reprint policy, since getting cards is actually accessible.
And they somehow still manage to keep some versions of cards more expensive for people who want cool versions! I like magic more than yugioh nowadays, but the monetization of yugioh is far better than magic
As a fan of both of you and Raran as well, I'd love to hear a podcast with the three of you complaining about your card games. It's hilarious.
Not Cimo accidentally calling Mana Crypt, Mana Vault while evaluating Vault...
"Accidentally"
Commander was founded by players who found a unique way to play back when we had Block Constructed. WotC needs to focus on just having balanced sets and not power creeping and catering to the Commander crowd, maybe just have a few fun flavor cards that can fit in popular EDH decks
Bloomburrow was basically this and I totally agree.
at this point we need a new format.
The yugioh reprint policy sounds so much more sane and healthy than magic's lol
Yeah anything is better than reserved list crap going on in mtg still. At least cards are reprinted and made available, like sure they're premium for a period of time, but then that time ends and most people can afford the cards.
Whereas in magic there are still so many cards without a reprint at all that are many years old outside of reserved list too. Or their last reprint was many years ago.
For casuals? Absolutely.
For anyone actually trying to play competitively? Absolutely not.
@@Scatterneohow so?
@@ShivamMeTimbers because of the way the rotations work, every rotation some of the most expensive must have cards will get banned or reprinted in the tins. Everyone knows it, so after the last tournaments in that rotation or before a tin comes out, people will offload these cards and the price will drop significantly. Normal people can get around this by selling theirs early when the card is still useable for future tournaments and people want it. But competitive players either get burned with the price drop or don’t play the best cards. So if this happens multiple times to multiple cards, it’s not surprising that people can lose a lot of money every year.
@@Scatterneo what are the comparative deck prices at tournaments?
I opened one Commander Legends collector booster on release day. I opened an Extended Art Foil Jeweled Lotus and Extended Art Foil Mana Drain. I sold those cards so fast. For years, I wished i had kept the Jeweled Lotus, but now I don't feel so bad.
Opened a full art lotus from the collector packs in the magic con box. I was pretty devastated to be excited to depressed in 5 days.
@@PsychoDiesel48 sorry to hear that 🫤
@@EastToWestTCG yup. Not too happy the two most expensive cards I have opened just lost most of their value to be sure. At least I hadn't bought a Dockside yet.
@@PsychoDiesel48
Don’t be bummed. Hold onto the cards as either a new format will come along or they’ll get unbanned and the value will immediately return.
@@gamingwhilebroken2355 I am. It's sad, but ai will keep them as memorys anyway. Still cool to have in my collection.
These cards needed to go a long time ago. The committees mistake was allowing them for this long. Jeweled Lotus should have been banned immediately to send a message to wotc.
yeah, jewelled lotus should have been prebanned i.e. banned before release.
In a kind of callous way, I think a ban with as much backlash as this one actually is even more of a message to wotc than a preban that would probably blow over in a day or two. If people do actually quit, liquidate, etc. in a significant way and the rc shows that they aren't afraid to ban potentially controversial cards, THAT'S a true deterrent. The former means fewer people buy CMM maybe, the latter means fewer people play mtg as a WHOLE as a result of their printing
@ShadowMage223 risking killing the format you are in charge of is a horrible way to try to send a message. This is just as likely to kill the RC as it is to send any message to WOTC. How many people are going to say "screw the RC" and move to kitchen table magic instead of going to LGS's to play commander?
@@Martin-qb2mwi wonder if its possibke to sue because they wanted to naje money off a card they knew they would ban
@@Nastyn1nja808 if rules commitee members were caught trading banned cards or replacements in a big way before the ban, legal issues could be possible. argueably the logic of insider trading applies
CGB sounded so surprised that YGO's 100+ dollar cards get reprinted into oblivion.
Yeah, that's is pretty normal for us. One example I remember is a card called "Ash Blossom & Joyous Spring" which was first released in the TCG in 2017. I don't remember how expensive it was at its absolute height, and a lot of card databases don't really keep track of historical prices for that long. I do remember it being fairly expensive like $100 but somebody can correct me if they do remember.
They didn't reprint the card until almost a year later, and it was a kinda short printed Ultra Rare card so the price dipped but not TOO badly. They released it again just 5 months after that, but the real kicker was in 2019 when they put it as a guaranteed common in a $10 structure deck. So you could get your hands on three of them for $30 at a walmart alongside 3 pre-made decks. That is usually preeeeeetty common for us. We see cards go from $100-200 to $60 within the next year because of reprints and then by year 2 or 3 they're probably common cards you get in a $10 premade deck lol. Our cards do not hold value.
Yeah, it's difficult not to come off as trying to sound high and mighty but it's literally that "First time?" meme coming to life. You could argue there's a difference between having a card banned outright in a format vs reprinted and becoming more available, but the nosedive that some of these pieces of cardboard took in terms of secondary market price are just too real
We've had it happen a couple of times _way_ back in the day, but the largest reprinting that we had, led to the reserved list because of people whinging about their card values.
I'd even say we don't get enough reprints, I mean look at the 2024 Tins they absolutely blow.
Isn't that good? People can find the cards they want rather than needing to spend 100s on ebay
@@rakino4418 There are a _lot_ of people who view CCGs as a speculative financial market first, game second (if at all), and for those people it's a bad thing for people to find the cards that they want to play at a low price.
I swear if Wizards prints a "fixed" Mana Crypt by changing its effects like Cimooo thought it would work I'm losing my shit
thing is, Wizards have a really bad track record of printing "fixed" versions of cards that end up being even more broken. If Mana Cave comes to be, it'll probably be banned even faster :D
@@Gravewhisper
Ya like Nadu could have easily been fixed, even with an errata, that the effect only triggers twice per turn overall (well twice per Nadu if you somehow got two or more Nadus on the board. Which isn’t impossible by any means but is also not super easy). That effect would still be amazing and probably among the best commanders. They could also make it so your opponent has to target the cards for it to trigger, which would weaken it significantly, and it would still be an amazing card.
@@gamingwhilebroken2355 no card should ever be fixed with errata in principle.
the only valid reason to errata anything at all are rules changes.
CGB, hearthstone is the game with the random stuff! Not yugioh
I thought he was referencing how many cards they run at 1 or 2 copies
Unless you play a tear pile 60 deck
Might also reference the lack of mulligan in yugioh
@@MrMeltJryou only play garnets at less than 3, either you want to see the card or you don't want to see the card
@@xolotltolox7626You play searchable extenders at 1 or 2. Drawing into them is nice since get you get an extra search for a trap or something, but not drawing them isn’t the end of the world. So they are the first to get the cut when making room for non-engine. It’s really starters and staples you play at 3.
Time Tearing Morganite is a pretty bad comparison to The One Ring. There are a bunch of cards that do what that card does, drawing you an extra card at the start of each turn. They're nowhere near as good. The One Ring draws you a card immediately, the turn you play it. Then, on your next turn - which is basically guaranteed because of the protection, you tap it to draw 2. That's 3 cards for 4 mana, which is already a decent rate (though not outstanding). But if you get to untap with it again, that's another 3 cards. 6 for 4! And god help you if they have even a single untapping effect. It's not easy to remove either, being indestructible. I know YGO's games are too fast for that delayed advantage to matter much, but it's still way better than something like morganite (and in YGO the fact that it buys you a free turn would probably be much more useful).
cimo also neglected to mention the fact that morganite prevents you from activating monster effects in the hand, cutting off handtrap access, which pretty much makes the card unplayable in almost all decks since running those is essential for modern YGO, if it didn't have that restriction, it would probably see play as a one of just in case you happen to go first
Just a point to add here. Lotus does see play in Legacy, as a playset. It's part of a combo with Doubling Cube as cube effectively launders Lotus' mana into mana usable for anything.
38:42 slight correction: There is exactly one Commander precon without Sol Ring. It's Painbow from Dominaria United.
I need to see CGB coaching Cimoooooooo in Magic Arena, and also Cimoooooooo coaching CGB in Master Duel.
The reaction people had over these bans made me honestly ashamed of being part of the EDH community. Just straight up shameful behaviour all around.
Never mind all the parasite collectors and leeches scalpers who only complained because they were stupid and short-sighted enough to treat a TCG as if it was an investment.
To be clear, Mana Crypt is far far stronger than Sol Ring. Sol Ring is very good, but it is far less explosive than Crypt. Ring on turn 1 doubles your mana, but cuts you off from coloured mana which severely limits what you can play with it.
Crypt on 1 straight up TRIPLES your mana and having access to colour mana from your land play really opens up your options. Crypt sets you 2 turns ahead for the entire game including turn 1. Two extra turns. It could ding you for 3 every turn and it would still be completely insane.
Yea but that's only the first turn of the game on literally every other turn sol ring is better also their reasoning for the banning is bs because they themselves admitted that if a player with explosive start will get targeted by all other players
@@person-ol5uf You're actually just wrong. Crypt is a better card than sol ring, full stop. Crypt in commander has no real downside, the damage is irrelevant compared to the advantage it creates. If you look at the other formats where both sol ring and crypt are legal (canadian and 7 point highlander) crypt is a higher pointed card, because it's just better, and that's in a format where the life loss actually matters.
@@2ndclassking949 it definitely is stronger than sol ring
but "far, far stronger" is an exageration.
Sol Ring into Arcane Signet or a different mana rock is a common play, it isn't coloured mana but really it enables even more ramp the turn you play it, or on the next turn. So it doesn't really cut you off from anything. Like I get the idea that there's an opportunity cost of playing basically anything over a basic, but that's a deckbuilding problem from introducing cards you don't really need. Sol Ring doesn't go into 100% of decks optimally, whereas Crypt maybe does, but that wasn't the EDH committee's statement.
@@jurgnobs13081 is a lot more than 0, it is far better
I just want to give a tiny amount of perspective as a cEDH player. 3 of the bans I'm genuinely fine with, Nadu isn't oppressively powerful but being non-deterministic makes it hell, glad it's gone. Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt are weird bans but sure. Dockside was a necessary cap on the format, but also Dockside was a bandaid on the bullet hole of no efficient artifact punishments. Dockside is a problem but red was already relatively weak blue and black didn't need the boost. But also the ban list has never been for cEDH so my local community is genuinely quite fine with the ban list. It makes oomphe and null rod way more important, now in every deck, but I don't know if that's necessary a bad thing. I think these really are good long term bans, but until something replaces dockside, stax is a mandatory deck in every cEDH pod, which as a stax player is fine to me, but I know will effect some. Idk I think it's nuanced but overall a good ban announcement. All my anger is towards WOTC for poor reprints and busted design, all love to RC ❤
To be fair to the guest, I kinda thought the same thing quickly reading Mana Crypt. It's a bit unintuitve that the losing the flip doesn't really punish your mana at all, as the coin flip mechanic is supposed to be the downside to the upside of two free mana every turn.
CImo CRUSHED this! Couldn't have been more on the mark. I'm very impressed, especially considering he comes from a game where mana isn't a thing.
14:00 Watching him misread Mana Crypt is killing me.
But hey, he eventually realized his mistake. Better later than never.
The One Ring damage effect should've been an emblem. Then it would've been fair since you take the damage even if you flicker it or re-play or something. It would've made even more sense thematically since Bilbo suffered from the side effects of the ring even when he didn't have it anymore.
i don't disagree but the effect would work best as the burden counters being put on you as the player, and you could either build the effect into the counters like rad counters or have the ring say "at the beginning of your upkeep, lose 1 life for each burden counter you have"
@@lesternomo6578 theres a lotta cards these days that can remove counters from players, you'd need like 1 and it'd still probably never kill you
ROFL that Cimo accidentally named Mana Vault exactly when reading the blanked version of the card.
"Accidentally"
As both a magic and Yu-Gi-Oh player magic players are spoiled in ways they fundamentally don't understand.
How do you mean?
I think complaining about the economy when the average player doesn't resell their cards is silly. Most people are going to keep their cards regardless of cost. A very small few are playing the economy game.
yea I think WotC aswell as the rules committee tend to care far too much about these investors.
gameplay fun should be the center to build releases and bans around. fun cards should never be on a reserve list, for instance. and cards that are bad for zhe format should get banned even if they cost a lot
I love the fact that you have the original Harper promo gained the intended way
magic noob here, would Nadu not be fine (good not broken) if you moved the Ending quotation to before the this can only be activated twice. so that you can only do this twice per turn no matter the number of monsters you have
It would definitely keep it much more under control. It'd still be pretty strong - draw 2 cards on your turn, maybe ramp, draw even more cards on opponent's turn if you can interact at instant speed is still a *really* good card.
yeah a lot of peoples reaction to seeing nadu for the first time was is that quotation in the wrong place. it would still be good as a draw 2 every turn but would be much harder to break you'd need all the current combo pieces plus a way to repeatably blink nadu might still be broken but certainly less broken
It would but I don't think that format works. It would just have to be a trigger on nadu that's limited. Something that gives an ability to everything but restricts it globally isn't a template they'd do. The game has no way of recognizing different instances of the given effect as "this ability" so that wording just wouldn't work. If the clause where outside the quotes as is it would try to restrict a trigger on nadu, which it doesn't have.
Moving the quotation wouldn't accomplish that result because templating it that way would make it nonsense in the eyes of the rules. You would need to change the way the entire paragraph is worded. But yes, if you made it trigger twice per turn total, it would likely be fine.
the card would need to be rephrased a bit, but yeah, that'd work
Stinks that Cimo spoiled that all of YGO's win conditions are bad. He could've done an entire video with all 10 of them for you to evaluate them.
My favorite part about this as a yugioh player is how all the yugioh players are like "yep these are all great bans, the game is clearly better now" and just not understanding why mtg players are mad. And then we hear about commander being highlander rules and double down on the bans being good. Like it can't all be people who hate the game but gamble on it like stocks, right?
44:50 Actual name jump scare! I was like „I hope he’s gonna realize later that he guessed the name by misspeaking“.
30:08 as a tearlament player (the deck cimoooooooo is talking about) i can tell you that they did not in fact hit 6 cards in the deck, but 9 cards (if you count the elf ban which you should cus it was abused in tearlament). tho this deck was compleatly insane, it was the most fun deck they ever printed ever.
As oppressive tear was, god was it hella fun to play.
@@sammydray5919 agreed, i miss the mermaids so much
Claiming Dockside's first printing was as a rare on a commander product is not exactly a fair explanation. It was in a commander precon, effectively a commander structure deck. That rare status just means it was in only 1 precon of the 5.
Although it's a rare you weren't looking for it in a pack, it was a guaranteed card... they knew its power and knew it would get people to buy products, so they printed it to mythic the first time it was in a pack.
Ok, can someone explain this to me because I feel like I'm going insane:
People are mad because an unofficial body banned cards from a casual format that people mostly play with house rules anyway? So there's literally nothing stopping you from continuing to play with cards you already own as long as other players agree? And people are upset because cards lost resale value when again, as a casual format, there's literally nothing to stop you from printing an image of the card and putting it into a sleeve?
MTG players, please seek help.
Amen. Though there is a competetive scene it's mostly a casual format and competitors should know that cards can always be hit with a ban. Especially if they own expensive mana cheating cards.
People follow the rules because a lot of commander is going to the lgs and playing Randoms. Pods at home and such run a lot of house rules.
In theory yes, but in practice this doesn't work nearly as well for people who don't have established, static play groups. CGB allows his friend Ben to play his banned Commander, that's great, I'd do the same, but I wouldn't expect it from randoms at a store. A lot of people, as alluded to in the video, would just respond with a blanket "no" to every request of playing a banned card and another big percentage would be suspicious at best of you requesting it. Similarly for proxies, even though the majority seems to be ok with them.
This is a very common criticism regarding the handling of the format, that the banlist should help regulate pick-up games but its inconsistent nature makes it difficult and the "rule 0" conversation isn't nearly as effective with strangers as it is with friends. A lot of people play Commander like it's board games or D&D and, I'm sure a lot of people would agree, D&D with strangers can be miserable.
@@MrMarnel Unless you're playing D&D within a format that has everything laid out, with a very clear 'Rules as written, there's no room for interpretation.' mentality. I used to play Living Greyhawk and that was a blast, but it was very clear that even the nonsensical rules were going to be followed to the letter, and any deviations needed to be clarified before each session (like saying that 50 feet of chain had a grappling hook attached to one end) while you had to be prepared for someone to say "No, you can't do that.". I had a character that had that, because a normal rope wouldn't have held the weight of both them and all of their gear.
I think that the rules committee, in their chasing of 'casual' forgot that making all the rules very clear is a great way to make something casual, and the community forgot what makes a casual format casual is the social construct around them.
Like I would have no problem with some stranger going "Can I run Jeweled Lotus in my Commander Commander deck? It's a deck that only has cards that have the word commander printed somewhere on it, and it's one of like 3 ramp in the whole thing." to a pod I'm in. But having that person being ok with the pod going "Not in the mood right now, maybe in another game." _should_ be the standard for asking that question. We should be asking permission to run broken cards and not asking forgiveness for rolling the table.
Same with the people that obsessively go "I need more than one copy of this card" because they run it in multiple decks. Swap the one copy between all decks if it costs so much, hell you can make it easy by only buying one type and color of sleeve then swapping the copy around. When I played I ended up putting everything in silver dragonshields personally, made it easier to swap cards around in legacy where the cost of cards is way higher and I didn't want to shell out for a dozen underground sea or some nonsense. Then there's some financial wisdom of if you can't afford to buy this card and see it banned, don't buy it in the first place. Proxy it. People should have been doing that since MTG 30 came about where they charged a grand for 60 fake magic cards that you cannot play in sanctioned magic.
So I'm guessing the Commander Rules Committee is to MTG Commander what Smogon is to Pokemon 6v6 Singles.
EXACTLY. Nailed it
Yeah that's a good analogy.
@@reedzimmerman2234
Except smogon lets any player with a high enough rating vote iirc.
well mana crypt is unbelievable better then sol ring because sol ring eats the 1 color of mana you have in turn 1 while mana crypt lets you play some 3 mana card taht has only 1 color pip.
thats unbelievable huge difference.
also the main problem is that there are TO MANY of these cards in the format so the ban of one of these cards already improves teh format.
as well as sol ring being literally worth nothing so anyone can have one for no cost and its in every precon xD
I never thought of that, that's the best explanation I've seen as to why it's better than sol ring
basically pick your poison, and the RC is banning the ones that are less accessible
Sol ring is also a $1-$2 with healthy amounts of reprints keeping the price from ever being prohibitive.
I'm surprised he didn't connect 'you can play both' with 'and you can play mana crypt to play sol ring', at the very least. I guess when everythings free normally for you, though...
I have honestly been really surprised with some of the uproar about these bans, I thought people were going to be cheering the streets to celebrate(which some still are but some are not). If you asked pretty much anyone before the list if any of these cards were good for the game or not and weather they should be banned i'd say that the vast majority of players would have agreed that all of them deserved the axe. Now though, because people who did invest in them are looking at the prices and upset. Which I kinda get, but its not like these cards tanked to nothing, so unless you just bought them recently and never got to play, its not like you're taking much more of a hit than a reprint would have done if you just resell them now. And the stuff about "why'd they hit X and not Y" if also kinda fair because other stuff is just as much of an issue, but id rather less stuff that I dont like seeing on the table than more stuff I dont like seeing at the table, and this applies to both casual and cEDH for me. But maybe their is something else that I didnt mention here that im missing, so if someone is upset about these bans id be interested to hear why.
CEDH player here. They are objectively good bans. Dockside being banned is genuinely exciting and is making me look forward to tinkering with my deck to adjust. Nadu, everyone wanted that banned and no one is complaining about that. But, jewelled lotus and mana crypt being banned, despite that being an objectively good decision, hurts and is annoying. Reprints have had nowhere near the impact on price that this ban has, mana crypt is down $200 and jewelled lotus is down ~$100 and they are only going lower. It's frustrating because so much core to my deck has been hit at once and now to play the format I love I have to scramble to piece together something functional, in the process losing money to cards I think are good ideas but don't work out. It is a massive change in deck building and heuristics that I immediately have to change and adjust to, all while my collection of cards I worked my ass of over the last year to get because I can't play proxies plummet in value by hundreds.
It's annoying because these bans should of been happening over the last 5 years and not all at once. It's also spat in the face of what most CEDH players were saying should be banned, whilst stripping cards at the core of the format. Everyone does agree with the dockside ban though. Rather than ban rhystic study, the best card in the format that oppressively and annoyingly takes over games in an unhealthy manner. They ban fast mana, the thing that makes CEDH, CEDH.
@@jackcois6077
Mystic remorez (whatever the cumulative upkeep version of rhistic study is) is generally better though isn't it?
Regardless yes, things that are broken in 3+ player should probably go but fast mana isn't healthy for deck variety or people's wallets. Would have been much better if they were proactive but better late than never so hopefully fewer turns of commander are playing ramp solitaire.
The majority of Commander players are either celebrating in the street or shrugging because they were using proxies for any cards that expensive anyway. The online drama is a combination of bans always making for good click-bait and copium from people who think any sort of collectible is an "investment". All of those cards were going to go down in price eventually like every other non-reserve card that is OP, it just happened more suddenly in this case.
So I think the issue the cedh community has isn't these bans in some ideal sense, but the bans in the current context of the format. Red, as a color in the current metagame, was only viable thanks to two cards - Underworld Breach and Dockside. These two cards _singlehandedly_ justified having red in your commander's color identity, maybe occasionally splashing a few multicolor cards like ignoble hierarch depending on circumstances. And now Dockside is gone. So now a lot of decks with red color identity are now so much worse that they're no longer viable. That ban without propping up red in cedh first just wipes out large swaths of the already existing decks.
Jeweled Lotus has similar problems! It allowed casting of expensive commanders that didn't see much play previously in cedh. For some time one of the best decks has been Tymna Kraum, which was hit twice by these bans. Kraum being a 5 cost commander, and being red. This is just going to encourage the low cost partner commanders, and people already think Tymna Thrasios is the obvious beneficiary. Not that it _needs_ it. (Or, I guess, RogSi, even though it's red, just because every other deck might be hit worse.)
@@jackcois6077plus in CEDH dockside was the one card letting decks keep up with the simic decks and the infinite mana combos, now Gruul, and rakdos decks are so far at a disadvantage they may start failing to compete. Even with dockside there where colors that struggled to compete in CEDH if they didn't have blue and black for thoricle and counters. Now it's amplified.
Oh people are coping hard after these bans. I've never seen so many people who laughed at "rule 0 convos" suddenly embracing it just as an out so they can keep their easy-mode cards in their decks.
Oh it's great, because the thing about Rule 0 is that the person who is running it needs to mention that they're running it, and everyone else can (and should) say no to playing a game with that card.
Exactly! Rule 0 is best as a “can I use this card?” as opposed to “you better have assumed we don’t allow x, y, and z cards.”
i mean in our play group one of the guys has a pretty mid goblin deck that happens to have a dockside in it with no way to loop it. he is lucky if the deck plays at precon level. he can 100% keep dockside in his goblin deck if i play with him
@@dragondest4 No sarcasm, this is 100% what Rule 0 is for. To allow people to run janky, fun, and/or weird decks.
What the banlist is for is to set a standard for strangers while also stop someone trying to pull a fast one over everyone else in the pod. Better for a table for someone to ask permission to run a significantly more powerful card (or cards) then to ask forgiveness after they stomp everyone else.
Rule 0 is obsolete. Playing at LGS's with packs on the line is always a banlist only thing. Its a kitchen table thing
~4:20 - Here you can see a Yugioh player casting _That Grass Looks Greener_ against an MTG player, truly a rare sight
MTG Player: OMG 4 cards got banned they are worth so much money!!!
Yugioh Player: First Time?
"Red is unplayable now." is what I keep hearing amount the local cEDH players.
On the yugioh side maxx c limited to 2 in the ocg truly the end times 😂
begining of the start
So glad Cimooooooooo mentioned the promo cards inside of the manga.
Bruh so I've played this deck called Cyber Dragons for a long time. I think you were shown the original Cyber Dragon card in just the context of, "This guy broke the game here he is" but it wasn't for the actual archetype itself.
They gave it some support a few years back and made it a good enough deck to be considered rogue, but I remember one of the supporting cards was released in Japan as a manga exclusive promo card meaning you'd need three subscriptions to the manga ahead of time in order to have received a playset of the card. I was so freaking out, but they printed it in the TCG as just a card in a special-ish set.
Some of the manga exclusive cards have been absolutely busted tho like not just for one deck but just universally broken for basically every deck in existence at the time of printing.
You mean more alive than ever before. None of those cards were good for Commander meta health, good riddance.
Too early to say that. If nothing insanely scummy happens in the next couple years in relation to the gap these cards will leave, then yes.
@@fredwin Not at all. Its just objectively bad to have Lotus type turn 1 mana boosts in a format where you are only allowed to have only 1 copy of each card in the deck.
That just means that allowing such cards will make luck more important than smart play.
They should have banned Sol Ring too. Then it would always be an equal start for everyone in Commander.
@@Ambander-p3x Yeah, and that has nothing to do with my reply. I'm saying it's only good for the health of the format if they don't print something similar to replace it.
In a randomized card game luck is inherently involved in every game. Banning sol ring is ridiculous.
@@fredwin I see, well you were a bit unclear with your reply.
It's darkly funny how the last few videos you did with Cimo have been borderline-prophetic.
We call him the protagonist for a reason.
Magic players and Yugioh players both have abusive relationshios with their respective card game companies, but different sides and different types of abuse.
With Yugioh, players just have to take whatever Konami gives them and that's that. There is no bargaining, there is no back and forth, Konami does a thing, and Yugioh players just have to deal with it and be happy.
MtG players, on the other hand, are in a verbally abusive relationship with WotC. If Wizards breathes the wrong way, MtG players will jump down their throat and demand an explanation.
The Solring cope from some is weird to me as a yugioh player.
That is like saying "They set Snakeeyes Poplar to 1" and then someone comes along and says "Whuell! Why did they ban two copies of Poplar and not the 3rd one? Heh!"
Like dude: Sometimes it is okay to keep one copy of a card around and ban others. Especially when one card is essencially a "Play an extra copy of a sol ring".
it's kinda like the dynamic between card draw effects and Exodia, it's a feels good mechanic for players but if the amount of easily accessible card draws reached critical mass, Exodia could suddenly becomes the only thing worth running.
The RC basically picked their poison by banning these generic mana sources, especially because Sol Ring is given such a plot armor by WotC and Mana Crypt are printed very sparingly as a chase card, it's easy to ban one and preserve the other
Wizards cannot be trusted to print responsible cards. Everything SHOULD go through standard, if only to keep cards sane. Exceedingly broken and toxic shit should be banned, and I support the RC for doing so, but they need to get off their ass and deal with MORE, not less. Those 4 years of hibernation were fucking unacceptable
Tbh, good riddance to bad bullshit. These cards were too powerful.
Before the "investors" crawl over me, screw them. This is a game. Not an investment.
Some people are not willing to proxy and want to play with the real cards. And people don`t buy cards willing to burn the money, but expecting that they keep their price somewhat - so you can sell them later when you want to get out of mtg again. Before forking out over a 100 $ for a card the (semi-)sane person will try to evaluate the risk of that specific card going to value valley at 0 $. If you don´t do that - sorry but you are plain stupid. If you are ripping a draft box expecting a return of only a couple bucks in card value, you wouldn`t buy it.
Many players bought themself a crypt, seeing that CRC never mentioned the card to be banworthy and it being a staple in cedH for a long time. To get your value ripped off after extensiv marketing of these cards by WOTC is surely an evaluation factor the CRC has to have in mind when deciding on bans.
You dont have to be an "investor" to be financially hit by this absurd ban. The victim is the whole playerbase.
@@S1m0nBG The good news is that now they realize that spending 100$ dollars on cardboard is not semisane, its just plain insane.
Buy proxies instead.
@S1m0nBG I don't think you get the whole picture here. This is a hobby. Not the stock market. Any expensive purchase comes with extreme risk that you personally choose to take on yourself. In 0 other hobbies can you make a $190 purchase and expect to get your money back after you've had your fun.
I do have some sympathy for your wallet. However, your wallet is not, and never should be, a valid reason to leave a card untouchable.
@@S1m0nBGalso thats a personal choice. You are responsible for your personal choices.
Its a hobby space. Are you here to have fun? No then leave. You think this is the stock market? Take your money and go actually play the stock market. Otherwise stop crying foul. Your wallet and your personal financial decisions are not anyone's problem but your own
@@FearTheCaboose1337 In every other hobby, where you collect something, you expect to retain value. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
The big difference price wise between mana crypt and mana vault is that mana crypt was reprinted numerous times, especially in early days before fast mana was clamped down on. It dates back to alpha and it got reprinted in all the base sets up to 5th edition albeit at rare. Then it's first reprinting after 5th ed. in paper was kaladesh invention/super limited with a few printings after that one with double masters and ultimate masters being the bigger prints of it, but still limited being master sets.
Mana crypt though the book promo was quite rare back in the day. All the modern era reprints have been limited prints for it too because it's a notable fast mana card that is up there with moxen in powerlevel.
I think it's neat that, no matter how expensive a Yugioh meta deck is. Eventually, every card in the deck will be reprinted to oblivion, so 15 years old Timmy can build the deck with his allowance.
Something that took me (as just a magic player) a while to realize is how magic treats "rarity" differently than most other card games. From what I can tell, most card games tie rarity directly to treatments. Things like borderless, alternate art, and foiling treatments are the "rare" and "mythic" equivalent, but the cards in those treatments can show up as commons in a regular treatment. In magic, each unique card has a rarity, and it is marked as that rarity despite any alternate treatment. A common in foil alternate frame is still a common. The alternate treatments and foiling can have different rarities, or can have dedicated slots in packs where the commons in that treatment will show up more frequently than the rares in the same treatment, but both share the slot in the pack.
what yugioh players don't get is that finance bros existed in magic before even the yugioh manga without the card game was made. literally the existence reserve list is saying we want finance bros in our game since the inception
And maybe it wasn't a good idea
@@goldenox2424 it kept the entire game afloat for a long time, now they have sm new players every release wotc doesn’t need or want finance bros anymore
Reserved list was more to make sure stores would keep making orders and stocking singles rather than individual “finance bros”. Card shops had just seen the huge baseball card market crash and were understandably concerned about Magic cards losing value when chronicles was printed. The market has outgrown the need for the reserve list but it did help Magic survive at that time.
@@frosty980 The excuse that they gave at the time (and still do) is the backlash from players, not from stores. Where players were whinging about their cards not being worth anything because they were printed again.
@@gabecastillo1634 lmao, how did investor hoarders keep MTG alive? WotC never got a single penny from them, they buy their cards from second hand sellers.
I love Cimo's reaction to the 5 years, just mouthing "5 years" in disbelief
aren't you guys happy ? they banned +100$ cards, good riddance
After using them as expensive collector booster chase cards and before releasing new, slightly weaker replacement cards most likely
It's free to proxy, and while having less explosive starts is maybe good for a more balanced play experience I enjoy seeing my opponents do cool stuff and personally I love edh because it's so broken.
The primary issue is people were buying those cards up, 500 dollar printings included until the day before, ban kinda came out of left field
I pulled one, and always bring nice proxies for the rest of my pod to use or I pull it out. “I can’t afford the card so it should be banned” is ridiculous.
@@ShooterMcKevin1
Conversely, "I spent so much on this card so it shouldn't be banned" is equally ridiculous.
Whenever you put Commander in the title it bricks my UA-cam algorithm for a bit but its worth it.
The pricing callout for Nadu was soo on spot
Commander Rules Committee to Sol Ring is like Costco to the buck-fifty hotdog combo.
I would love to see the same reprint policy in MTG. I’d much rather see accessibility vs luxury cardboard.
That *was* going to be the reprint policy, waaaaaay back in the 90s. The first of these reprint sets was called Chronicles.
And the reaction broke the game.
The wailing. The shrieking. The rage hurled at WotC. How *dare* they devalue our cards, they cried! According to MaRo, the game almost died, there, on the spot. And certainly not because the next set was *Homelands.* And so, the Reserve List was created, with a promise to never again White Border any more of those most precious and valuable rares and uncommons. Until the end of the Urza cycle, and WotC realized how badly they'd shot themselves by forbidding themselves from reprinting all this.
To be fair, even though we don’t have the same reprint policy,
We have that reprint policy as the print policy for standard sets, which is even better.
His reaction show why we should have more bans and reprints in commander to get people to realize they are spending money in a game, not an investment, that losing value from a ban sucks, but it is better for everyone in the long run
I used to play Yugioh before moving on to Magic. For sure Yugioh is more accessible than Magic, in terms of prices. Yes, some cards tend to skyrocket in price when released, but the reprints are very nice for casual play.
I think a thing of note about the one ring in modern vs commander is in modern you can run multiples. This is relevant because the card legendary. You can drop a new one on board to replace the old in order to reset the counters if need be.
Theres plenty of other things as well obvouisly but I think that one is the most interesting.
So what I'm hearing in my YGO brain is:
Dockside Extortionist=Maxx C ???
They missed that Dockside Extortionist was very first printed in a pre-con.
Reminder that Mishra's Workshop is legal in Commander
While true, it isn't that great. It's fairly restrictive on what you can use that mana for.
@@RumpledNutskin You're a massive chad and I applaud you. I have never met a single person who looked at Mishra's and thought it wasn't that great
@@RumpledNutskin yeah is restrictive but still wildly unfair and should be banned. I mean i tried to use a proxy and in an artifact deck it's just broken. Playing a metalworker turn 1 lets you drop your hand turn 2 if left unchecked
@@scuffedwizard it isn't that great in COMMANDER. It only casts artifacts, which don't tend to end the game. Yes, it's a broken card, and can't be legal in other 60 card formats, but in commander, what does it do for you other than accelerate out some mana rocks? It doesn't even see much play in cEDH because of how restrictive it is
@@shiragi8426 so you need a workshop, a 3 mana 1/2, and a handful of artifacts in a singleton format as your opening hand? You can't ban a card because it's only good when paired with another card that has summoning sickness
One thing that is important to note about cEDH: the format can be so fast, that going last is a huge disadvantage. Dockside had the upside that it helped the 4th seat come back into the game.
Dockside also, arguably, made red viable on it's own in cEDH. Only time will tell, with the meta shift, if that was true.
Its so weird as a yugioh player to see mana crypt be broken, a card thats essentially like a double summon 😂
I'm also a yugioh player and like... no? If you play mana crypt and a land turn 1 you have 3 mana while everyone else has 1 mana and you get to keep the mana crypt and gain the 2 mana every turn. That's like way better then a double summon
It's closer to being on turn 3 while your opponent is on turn 1. If you have a sol ring with it, it's like being on turn 5.
So yeah, pretty powerful.
@the_cool_dudz9394 oh ok makes sense. I thought i was just a one time effect
Seeing you two colab now im really itching for a video series on the history of magic the gathering like cimoo did for yugioh where the players gor through the sets and play the game as it was back then.
I thought EDH is initially a fanmade format (may be formally supported now but initially fanmade), why don't just branch out? Everyone who wants to play with Mana Crypt and Nadu can play with them, and those who don't can play without. Isn't that why rule 0 talk is a thing in Commander anyways?
like the rule 0 thing also mean you could play banned cards if the group let's you, unlike Wotc the rules commite will not send the pinkertons after you, the most affected people would be the Competive edh people as those bans would be enforced but separating themselves from the most popular format is not great especially because this would not be such a big deal for most casual players which could mean that there is way less interest in their format, like they could do it for sure but it is not a easy thing to do
The issue lies when playing with randoms at LGS. Not everyone is going to agree, so the banlist is there for those who play casually at these game stores. With friends or people you know then you also need to convince all of them why you should be allowed to play with the said cards. Thats why rule 0 doesnt always work.
@@RedThebaron97 had a feeling that this ban is pretty much only impacting the cEDH community when they play in sanctioned events, or even outside of events bc it's just abiding with the spirit of the format
edit: the vibe is like "It sucks but dems the rules so we just have to accept it and move along"
@@zandaman802 I think if a table aren't willing to rule 0 allow mana crypts those would be the tables that are also not keen on having one dropped on them out of nowhere even back when it's legal.
Conversely tables that are used to playing on that power level won't mind with the rule 0.
@jamesaditya5254 you also have to factor in that because of the bans people are going to take them out meaning they will be less willing to as they won't have it while they let the person rule 0'ing will have access to it.
Yu-Gi-Oh player with the completely reasonable and on point takes. Respect.
He sussed out the logic that were behind the bans and evaluated the cards in practically the same way as the RC which is pretty indicative imo. Both of y'all have a reasonable take and I agree.
I think in like a month tops people will have given up on it and be like eh it's fine and just whine about how they think it would have been better with no bans. They'll drop the idea of trying to break off and depose the RC and make their own formats or whatever. Because people are very happy to complain when they don't agree with something. But making your own format and managing it and everything else associated with it is a lot of work. And none of those people are ready to do it themselves and it's even harder when you want to overthrow an established format to make your own spin off.
I appreciate the coolheadedness surrounding this banning, despite you saying it probably cost you 2k or so. Im so frustrated with people babyraging over this ban because they thought of THEIR CARDBOARD TOYS as an investment.
Gaming hobbies aren't an investment.
Yugioh players (who’ve tolerated the toxic relationship with Konami) to MTG players: “first time?” 😂
Commander playtesters: this might be too strong
Card designers: ok we'll remove the problematic part, but in echange we buff it until it's stupidly insane
The commander banlist isn't "you shouldn't play these exact cards", it is "you shouldn't play cards like that". Banning Sol Ring is not possible, but I think it leads to better game if no one plays it (except in cEDH)
I don't have the kind of money where I can afford a 100+$ card, but if I did and I wanted to put it in several decks I would change the sleeve depending on which deck I'm playing instead of buying multiples
Because artefacts are often colorless, they have the potential to be the strongest cares in the game. Cost reduction, and effects that care about the number of artefacts you have (tokens being artefact may have been a design mistake, they should have made a different type imo) can and do get out of hand
The rules committee was not tied at all to wotc. They just had mana crypt in a set recently. It makes no sense to ban it monetarily. Additionally, since commander is a casual format, the banlists purpose is to let uniformed players know what cards are scary. Theres nothing to stop my friends and i from playing decks full of band cards. Many of the rules committee members were youtubers and were tightly knitted into the community. They also were completely unpaid. The rules committee was a fully voluntary thing. Its disgusting that memebers of the rules committee were threatened and harassed to the point it got to.
Do. Not. Threaten. People.
Especially over a card game.
I'm surprised the Magic community are being such b*tches about these bans. I don't play Yugioh but I know they have crazy bans and I was hoping for these cards to get banned. Every time I've encountered Mana Crypt and Dockside, the games have been terrible. I only encountered Jeweled Lotus once but it was a non-game too.
The cedh games with these are equalizers, they make certain archetypes work that won't normally be fast enough against the other decks. Plus these cost a lot of money, this could easily have cost people hundreds of dollars for people buying cards that should usually be eternally available in decks.
@@natanarucounter point: uad they banned all fast mana (1-2 mana cards that make more then they cost) we may see agro become a viable strategy in commander again
@leonvalenzuela4096 then green would take over, unless you ban all ramp in general. Aggro suffers from having multiple opponents, and 40 health life totals in commander. When you have 3 opponents who all can interact with you having an agressive strategy that makes you a target is generally going to be detrimental to you.
@@natanaru I didn't give a expectation to green, if it cost 0-2 mana & makes more then it cost to play, it should get axed; doesn't matter if its part of it's color identity; hell if it's going to make more decks viable & leads to a healthier format, I'm for the banning of Bird of Paradise & its kin.
@leonvalenzuela4096 It still wouldn't solve the issue of aggro, and you would also be banning a massive amount of cards in precons as well. Plus green would still win with a majority of their ramp being 3 cmc or higher. And certain commanders would be banned out due to being 1 or 2 cmc dorks. I think this idea goes against the idea of the format as well, this format should have some explosive starts because of how big the deck is and it being a singleton format.
I love the cross platform content references! This video was SO Much Fun!
Nadu also peaked at $13 because even before the tournament, we all knew it was busted, and the ban was just a matter of time.
Edit: Cimoooo needs to learn about the Reserved List. Also, typically if a card reaches $100+ in Standard, it's good enough to be played in older formats, like Sheoldred.
Looking at the sale history of mana crypt, I’m curious if some collectors are buying up copies to try and keep the value up of what they already have.
Commander is now 0.5% of the way to being a fun playable format, but you gotta start somewhere.
Really depends on what you consider fun. My friends and I enjoy high power games where everyone is trying to win. Most of our decks aren’t quite cEDH tier, but they’re strong.
We have decks of all power levels if other people don’t want that sort of game though. We have fun from the act of playing. Winning is just a bonus.
People who act like EDH should be a purely casual format are just as toxic as people who act like cEDH is the only way to play
@@tyrusdalet And you know what? Your group of friends can say that none of these are actually banned, and no one would stop you.
What it does mean is that the ban list stops people from blindsiding those cards on strangers. We now have to Rule 0 these cards in, instead of Rule 0ing them out.
@@leadpaintchips9461 we already have. These bans aren’t going to stop blindsiding of strong decks against casual pods. It’s just going to make starts of those decks slightly less explosive.
But that’s not the issue in those situations. It’s Rhystic Study, tutor density, esper sentinel, bowmasters, One Ring, thoracle.
The nature of the decks you’re complaining about isn’t these 3 cards, it’s the entire paradigm they’re built around. To “fix” this, the RC needs to ban more cards on power level. But that’s antithetical to the format; or rather, it has been for years.