Haas' ToolRoom Mill Re-design and the New TM-0. Haas Automation, Inc.
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- Опубліковано 13 тра 2021
- There are changes afoot to Haas' ToolRoom series of milling machines. This includes the soon to be released TM-0 which brings an even more affordable entry to the list of available models in the TM lineup. Bryan talks to Bob Draper, the Engineering Manager for the TM line, about the history of the TM lineup and some of the reasons for the changes they're making to TM models.
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I love that this is a couple of the guys who design these talking about it, and not a super polished marketing spiel.
Purchased a new TM2P less than two years ago and had it placed in my garaged. Within 6 months, I moved it into a my own shop. It now sits next to my new VF2SS still making parts (albeit a little slower). I hope to keep growing with Haas. When l I decide to sell everything... the TM won't be in the catalog and is going right back in my garage.
That’s the dream man.... that’s the dream
To everyone asking about the TM redesign in general, and the TM-0P specifically: Currently we are looking at September/October for release. Price for the TM-0P is targeted for under $30,000 but a final price will be announced closer to the release date. We still have the current design TM-1, -2, and -3 available if you are in the market for a Tool Room Mill. - Haas Automation
Thank you for the update. When will specs for the redesign TMs be available online to view?
@@MrStanwyck They look to be available now. Super excited for the TM-0P! I think it will be my first machine based on what I've seen here.
www.haascnc.com/machines/vertical-mills/toolroom-mills/models/tm-1p.html
I just measured the TM Reboot prototype on the floor - These numbers are NOT official, are approximate, and subject to change, but should be generally close to the final dimensions as I haven't heard of any major changes coming up. But if you're tight on space, do not take any of this as gospel and confirm all dimensions with your local HFO.
TM-0 as-shipped dimensions
91" from the bottom of the casting (with no leveling feet) to the top of the cable carrier, which is the highest point as-shipped
If you unscrew the CC mounting bracket, you can get it down to 84" to the top of the Regen burner housing
If you remove the regen assembly and cable carrier completely the lowest practical breakdown is 79-ish inches to the top of the Z axis servo motor.
All those heights assume no leveling feet, screws all the way up, do not account for the height of forks on a forklift, and required ground/door clearance.
TM-0 operating dimensions -
With leveling feet installed its 107" tall (so it will barely fit in a 9' high room)
About 88" deep with the control at 90*
About 76" deep to the front of the convenience package shelf
The machine-only is 74" wide. The low profile chip chute shown in the video adds an additional 20" bringing it to about 94" with the auger/chip chute option.
The TM-1 reboot appeared to have very similar height and depth dimensions as the TM-0
The TM-1 is 100" wide and add another 20" if you want the low profile chip chute
A TM-2 was not available to measure, but should have about the same height and depth.
The TM-0p is the Tormach killer I've been waiting for. If this is under 40k fully loaded I'm sold. I want so bad.
a haas mini mill is about 20K and this machine might cost even less
@@chaddanylak8706 25k with no hsm, no probing, no rigid tapping, poor man coolant system, no enclosure, 6k rpm, no 4th axis hookups, no chip auger, manual oiler, etc...
@@chaddanylak8706 only the education version is. By the time it's shipped and rigged and few options it's 40k and you may as well get a vf2
@@Foomanlol I purchased this machine and after all the options it was over $40k. I could of picked up a used vf2 with all the bells and whistles for the same price but there was no way I would fit that in my garage which is why I decided to go with this machine.
That TMOp looks pretty sweet for a garage machine.
L
My first CNC was a TM2 in 2006. Learned a LOT of lessons on that thing - it never broke in the 5 years I had it.
Can we expect a TL-0 too? PLEASE!!
Laying in bed with the hum of my Tm2P running parts right now 😂😂😂, no regrets in the two years I’ve had it. Nights and Weekends SideHustle and The Mrs. is getting the hang of running parts while I’m at the Day Job during the week. 👍👍💪💪⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️😎😎
mind if I borrow your misses? she can train up mine!
Single phase cnc mill options is essential for us garage shop guys.
The TM 0 seems like a Mini Mill killer, as well as a tormach killer.
Very interesting stuff, it’s a shame you don’t make a little hybrid between the Dt1 and something like an XYZ/Trak OP2 portable mill, I think a mini robodrill would cut out a lot of competition. (I suppose the CM1 fulfills that criteria)
I suppose you gotta make changes and drastic efficiency improvements, when material prices rise and then when Mazapin spins at every GP and you have to fork out 250k for a new front wing and penalties for blue flags lol.
Price will always be the make or break in the end. Some guy with a used PCNC 1100 could be chasing better profits than the guy with the nice TM, but its all in the work and your real needs at the end.
Looking forward to seeing the specs on the new TMs once the website is updated... I’m interested in the TM2P....
Great to see this legend
Nice improvements! Have two of the older TMs (without enclosures). Was thinking about replacing one with a mini mill but that TM-0 looks interesting. Oh and I never forget to grease trucks...:) Question; is a 20 tool changer going to be an option on the TM-0p?
Thanks for the very informative video. When will the TM0 show up in the online quotation page?
When will the web page be updated to show the TM0P and it’s prices?
I was looking for it too , but no luck so far
Haas replied above...
"
Haas Automation, Inc.
2 days ago
To everyone asking about the TM redesign in general, and the TM-0P specifically: Currently we are looking at September/October for release. Price for the TM-0P is targeted for under $30,000 but a final price will be announced closer to the release date. We still have the current design TM-1, -2, and -3 available if you are in the market for a Tool Room Mill. - Haas Automation"
Thanks guys
This is one awesome move towards garage shops! Now Tormachs don't have a chance with their plus $20k 2 hp light duty machines!
Tormach RIP x2
Haas will make the TM0 $50k with options to make it usable... as long as they don't include rigid tapping or HSM they won't be able to compete with a Tormach.
@@bdp-racing You have a point. The comparison I meant here is a 31,000 1100 MX and a baseline 33,000 TM1 (TM0 price is still unknown). With Haas you only lose the spindle speed (4k), the probe kit and rigid tapping. However, you gain a much more rigid and powerful machine/control. You can take heavier chipload with that machine to substitute the lost speed. You really gain soooo much more power, quality and reliability.
I know Tormach has it's own league, I actually have a Tormach sized machine, but recently the prices went much upwards that defied the original mission of having affordable machines or entry level machines. Anything Tormach beyond 20k is absolute nonsense.
@@sameh.a.mohamed I've been buying the M's and upgrading them... it's cheaper that way. I wish Haas would step out of the 1980s and include what comes standard on every other machine. Watching a new machine shudder and stall trying to navigate without HSM activated is painful to watch. You would think Haas would be embarrassed to sell them like that.
@@bdp-racing It Haas marketing and sales why the base machines lack features that come standard on others. They way they market and sell is payment per month and just nickel and dime the purchaser because its only an additional $44/month to get rigid tapping or $120/month to get 10k rpm. Alot of the the options are just unlocked in the controls with a passcode it wasnt until recently WIFI was standard
Its expensive to start a machine shop so I have I have bought every haas in my small shop used (and I love my 2 machines) but I am so excited to be buying my first new Haas soon (thanks to the amazingly low cost of the tm0p)! I love how small the TM0p is that I think I can fit 2 of them in a spot I though I only had room for 1 more machine.
I'm looking to buy a mill soon and almost certainly going with Haas. Will be going in a garage like they mentioned, needs single phase, and I *love* that Haas is paying attention to their customers!
yeah, having experience with the cost reductions on our one year old vm3. replacing the chip auger exit tube for the third time. the one on it now only lasted 6 months. keeps springing a leak at the bottom near where transitions upward. there used to be extra metal welded on the area i'm referring to.
seems that chips eventually grind there way thru the til it leaks pretty badly.
i understand wanting to reduce cost but lets not do it at the cost of quality. at least it's still under warranty
I am pushing this mill to the owner right now!!
I was looking into other machines due to budget limitations... now seeing the TM0P has me thinking, that said a couple pockets for tools would be a nice extra that I would be willing to pay for.
Man. That 0 is awesome! Well they all are but that’s appealing especially
So, the mini mill is back, just a bit bigger. Nice.
The one good point that they make is that the control system is the same between all their machines.
Tm0p looks great
Do these have the newer controls with the facing and engraving templates like my vm's do. I think its called next gen or something
Sounds interesting!
wait, does the TM0P not come with a way covers to protect the linear rails?
I just tried to build one of these but can not get an auger on it?
The spec in the video for the TM 1p TM 1 was stated at 16" of Y travel that is incorrect it is only 12"
VERY GOOD MILLING MACHINE
How does the TM0P compare to the Mini Mills?
I am interested to see they will slide under a standard garage door opening. The mini mills are to tall.
What height is your garage? My garage is shorter than others I’ve known but still enough for a mini mill, TM’s, and vf1-2
My door is spot on 84”
I’ve slid a Tm-1 and Tm-2 in it with only loosening the energy chain and removing the spindle resistor box.
Slid a vf-2 in as well. Removed energy chain links and removed the side mount tool changer to slide that under. (Changer was a heavy/hard lift to get back on)
@@brianwaayenberg3099 I did the same thing with my tm1
Dear Haas... We bought tm1p in december 2020 (manufactured in september 2020) and now I am dissaponted because form day 1 when we consider MM or TM i didnt like not protected ways. There will be an option to buy z way covers?
I am also curious - we have model with new "anodised" NGC controller - it is already with touch display but need new firmware or something because was sold before 2021?
The video says they were able to cover the Z axis because of the redesign, implying that there was something preventing it before.
Def need the TM0p pricing.
what is the starting price for a TM0
Yes, when can we expect pricing?
Under 30 / 29,999
Well thats a bit of a bummer, I have a TM2p and I would give naming right to my first born if I could get more RPMs. The 3" face mill runs great at 1500 but every other tool I use pegs the machine at 6K all day long. Thats not too bad when you are hogging aluminum with a 1/2" endmill but its painful when you are using an 1/8th in or smaller cutter. That was my only real complaint with the machine. Sad that didn't get addressed.
Haas does offer an option for a 10,000 RPM spindle for the TMs. Here’s the link. www.haascnc.com/productivity/spindles/10k-40t-grease.html
@@MrStanwyck Thanks, I was unaware. I wonder what kind of belt life you get out of that. It was my understanding that the belt was the reason the RPM was limited. Its also going to be a noisy boy.
You could get a speeder head.
So it's like a monoblok-series machines from DMG :)
I love my TM3P, it's the biggest thing I could fit in my garage without the need for a phase converter. I am an advocate for buying the biggest thing you can afford so you don't immediately grow out of it.
How ridged do you find the Tm-3
I had a 1 and a 2 and noticed the difference in head cantilever with the extra 4” between the two machines. The 3 had another 4”! Great workspace, but a bit noodley?
Loved my Tm-1! Great machine
@@brianwaayenberg3099 I haven't been left wanting rigidity. A quality tool holder goes a long way. Most aggressive cuts I've done so far are 1.5" AD and 0.1"Ae in steel. Loads the spindle to about 125-150% and sounds good.
@@capnthepeafarmer i cannot agree more on a quality tool holder! so many buy a machine and cheap out on the holders. I did alot with 3/8 endmill in a schunk tendo-e hsm paths was a geat machine. got a vf-2 now. def more ridged. 2009 10,000 rpm spindle actually only makes as much torque as my tm did! but does not dive off with more rpm, so large facers are not impressive, but hsm cutting is awsome! id buy a tm without hesitation.
@@brianwaayenberg3099 schunk Tendo all the way! I use them mostly with my long reach tooling and I never have any pull out issues. For roughing though I've had good success with Iscar APK tools with Weldon flats. They can take a very aggressive cut and no need to worry about pull out. Or Iscar ER40 for bigger diameter stuff. I got my TM3P with the 10K spindle and it does great! But for HSM you find really quick that the TM is limited by its maximum cutting feed of 400IPM. And most importantly use a good feeds and speeds calculator which you can tune to the machine. I use Millalyzer and I can get the optimum parameters to minimize chatter and maximize the productivity from such an entry level machine. Work smarter not harder!
@@capnthepeafarmer ill have to look into those tools. just with a side lock holder? ive been playing with the schunk holders and those endmills kennemetals has on sale. Kor 5 and harvi iii. shocking what you can do with a 3/8 endmill! you got any vids of your machine cutting?
HAAS machines are good for their price. But in my opinion, their rigidity is not enough. Do you have a rigidity standard like ISO 1984?
Any information on the pricing for tm0?
Haas replied under $30k is the goal
Is there an oiler option?
Also is there more travel in y? Was about to grab a tm3P
Any word on height? Sounds like that would have been considered given the discussion. Either way very cool!
5 days and still not on the website....
I’ll keep my Prototrak DPM. Just looking at that little door on the 0 kills my back j. I hate to think how hard it must be to get in there and pick up a hole. I know that they need to keep that flood coolant inside, but with coated carbide and the cool mist MQL setup I have that’s not a problem on my machine. I can get right up on a part and really look at it.. If I’m really slinging chips I have a waxed canvas curtain that I pull around the machine. If I was designing a machine from scratch I’d keep the same Bridgeport table height and make the enclosure have both a door and the ability to open up the whole thing like a sideways clam.
I have a LPM and 2 DPM machines as well as a Mini mill with the older controller(2000-2003 I think). I find the open bed machines compliment the larger faster machines well. I use them a lot with a tapping head or especially with saws. the mini mill and the lpm can't go slow enough to use a saw with the DPM physical transmission the motor can stay in the power and get down to the 100-150 rpm I typically need for my saws. They are also great for roughing bar stock to size before it goes into one of the enclosed mills. As for coolant I mostly just run air blast on end mills and the saws need oil anyhow so I just brush it on.
I like how they're standing in front of the old chassis, never show the redesign casting, but talk about how they didn't have "analysis"
RIP TM-3P. I couldn't ask for a better machine in my garage.
Right! Some people need the machining footprint like me. Now you get forced into the more expensive machines for the needed footprint.
can you order the ''old'' software on the machine? Next gen is mutch slower and you need to push more buttons to do the same thing.
Also the biggest bummer is that i can't acces the machine parameters..... backlash, dead area ect. Also even the serves gues can't acces the motor PID settings. I really don't get it.... If i buy and pay a machine i don't want a lock on the door
No or limited access to parameters is a big turn off in my opinion, especially when selling/buying used. Haas has great redial value that allows people to buy with confidence. Lock out the 2nd buyer who gets a 10yo machine for his garage, no able to fix himself and the value Linda drops.
Heck. I stuffed a vf2 in the garage. With parameter lockout I would not have been able to reinstall the smtc myself! Would not have bought if that was the case, service calls 600im from a service sender are to expensive
I have a TM-2P in my garage. I SINCERELY HOPE they redesigned the belt and pulley that the motor uses to drive the spindle. The one on my machine has a pulley which pushes the belt down toward the lower flange of the pulley, which can be INCREDIBLY noisy. Like, 5x as loud as it should be. Techs could not fix or adjust, they tried shimming for hours, at great cost. Not ideal for a machine in a garage, I hope they fixed it.
The problem with the belt noise is corrected? Also noise as in video:
4:13
9:55
10:57
12:44
Oh wow that TM0p looks like a Mini Mill killer.
Yeah, like with the TM 3 id say they want go get rid of the mini mill and super mini mill 2 and have their budget line as just the tm0, 1 and 2.
From what I imagine, the tm3 took away from VF3 and VF4 sales, and the mini mills take away from the TM sales. So simplifying it to Tm 0-2 makes sense.
@@flatsurfaces1913 yeah I agree there. See why get a mini mill with the integrated coolant tank and tiny door when a TM0P will have all the same power in a similar footprint and more creature comforts like the external tank and so-on?
What I really want to see is that they go to the option of a 12-15hp spindle on these. Even if it was 3-phase and required an inverter, you can reasonably run a 15hp machine off a 60-100A residential service which would keep it suitable for garage work. Single phase 15hp motor would be amazing. Would make the TM0P a beast for startups
@CMTeamCobra I'm sure that's generally all true but how many production shops are going to look at a brand newBASE mini mill these days? I might in fact be way out to lunch and there's shops buying the bare bones Mini Mill left and right to do production work, but something tells me they generally get something faster and more capable like the Super Mini Mill, or the DM/DT machines.
I diddn't say the TM-0P would replace THOSE.
If you're a startup, or a school, or a hobbyist, or a company that needs a basic 2nd op machine even, anyone who previously might have had to choose between the BASE mini mill and the BASE TM-1P as being similarly capable machines (single phase with tool changer and full enclosure) for your educational or small-run production projects, now there is the TM-0P which has almost all of the benefits of both machines.
As far as I can tell, there are very few things left about a BASE mini mill that make it worth giving up those benefits that don't also justify looking beyond the BASE mini mill.
And maybe there will still be some market out there for production shops that just need to cram some simple spindles into as tight space as they can, while staying on the tightest possible budget. But I am pretty sure this machine will kill the base Mini Mill as the go-to for schools and startups.
I would like to see Haas develop a maker, hobbyist machine most likely controlled by a laptop.
They basically do: www.haascnc.com/machines/vertical-mills/desktop-mill.html
That said, I know nothing about it.
there have and it became a launching stock
The problem is that the control system is so integrated with the computer system. Last I checked, it was all on one board. So you would still have to have the bulk of that board. No real cost savings, aside from the display. Haas spends less than $100 on the internal computer system, remember they are buying in bulk for those components.
Is it as tough and accuracy like VF
Not sure about accuracy but It's much lighter weight than VF series machines and lower power. If you have the power and space the VF machines are more expensive but far better value. The current tms don't even come with rigid tapping standard.
Wish I could get a enclosure for my 2001 tm1
I built one for mine. It wasn’t super hard. You might give that some thought.
@@rowycoracing have you got pics? I'd like to see what you how you did it.
@@mastermoarman Yeah I could snap some pics when I am over at my shop next week. In summary I just unbolted the Haas sheet metal that was mounted to the table. I kept and reused the stock door. Then I built sheet metal walls that stand off of the stock lower catch pans. Then I cut out front access and installed the stock door on it. It works OK. Definitely no need to wear rain gear when using flood coolant now…
@@rowycoracing awesome. Maybe a vid would be easier for UA-cam? Ya see my mill is missing the tray that goes on the bed. It still has the little winglets on the back though
@@mastermoarman ya I can get a quick video.
10:20 to see the tm0 p damn
TM0 40 Taper?
yes
Why your floor is black not white also machine bottom side.
I tell because of my manufactur will not make okuma, fanuc/Siemens controller not making white part with bottom side
Looks like they are going after that tormach/syil market
UMC-6 when?
Question now is, TM-0 or mini mill..
@CMTeamCobra they're both similar and start at the same price point. My point being, tm's were never comparable to the mini mills, but the new tm-0 seems to be a competitor to the mini mills now, so all the people who look at the mini mills and completely disregard the tm series might now change their mind about buying a mini mill
@CMTeamCobra Its actually been a couple months since I last watched this video. So maybe i thought the tm-0 was going to be kinda a alternative to a mini mill. I've only been a machinist for 7 years, but been lucky to set up and run millturns and twin spindle lathes. Haas, mazazk, okuma. But most of my years have been behind dmg's. But for the last few years I had been looking to buy a mini mill for myself but did have the Tm in mind.
HAAS, I like your machines. I have 12 of them. BUT-----MAJOR annoyance on these as well as HAAS lathes!!!!
All Haas machines that run those urethane belts are amazingly annoying. The loud screeching squeel of these belts is awful. The fact that HAAS hasn't done anything about this for 20 years is beyond me. There are MANY installations of these machines in clean, rather quiet areas. The direct-drive spindles are not a problem. I am currently listening to my ST-15 and I hate it. If Tesla bought HAAS, something tells me the first thing they would do is fix this annoying problem with flying colors. HAAS has received MANY MANY complaints of these belts over the years and has not bettered the problem at all.
I have an idea for HAAS engineers.
It's called "quiet drive technology." PLEASE re-engineer the urethane- timing belt drive. Your customers will thank you.
I'm going to go out on a limb here... maybe the reason TM-3s didn't sell is because they're nearly $60k with HSM, Rigid tapping and all the normal stuff that Tormachs have standard on their machines. It's kind of hard to justify buying something for $45k that can't keep up with a Tormach without adding $15k worth of unlock codes.
The new TM-0 would be more comparable to the 1100mx in terms of size, right?
The Tormach mills are inferior even the TM series of HAAS CNC mills. The biggest Tormach has 18"*11"*16" XYZ travels, smaller than the new TM0. It has only a weak, 2HP BT30 spindle, the TM-s have BT40 7.5HP. The whole structure is much weaker, the 1100MX is only 720kg, the TM1 is around 1500kg. So they are not in the same level. If you have a Tormach, it's a good hobby CNC for your garage, but with the TM you got an affordable machine for your workshop.
I thought the P stood for.... pEnclosure
tm3 is gone
That was a waste why did you show so little about this machine
I would never buy one.
Ok
Would never buy that peace of shit.