What the hell happened to high end audio?
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- Опубліковано 13 тра 2019
- It seems like back in the day high end audio manufacturers were more concerned with sound quality than making money. Today that role seems reversed. Is it true and, if so, why? If you want to learn more, grab a copy of Paul's new book, The Audiophile's Guide. www.amazon.com/Audiophiles-Gu...
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My definition of "high end audio" is equipment that I would like to own but will never be able to afford.
If I suddenly find that I can afford an item, no matter how much it costs, it immediately loses its high-end status.
Yeah, it simply falls under the halo of "Luxery" market. The unattainable and exclusive. Tech has simply improved so much that the cheaper stuff easily rivals the high end in sound. Aesthetics are a whole other side of things too that jacks up price
That's my theory too. With everything.
I think this is the golden age of audio now. I'm 67 years old. There are many companies dedicated to making quality audio at fair prices. To name a new:
Zu, Tekton, PSAUDIO, Emotiva, SVS, REL, Harbeth, Falcon, Schitt, Elac, Dayton, Vanatoo, Micca, Grado, Outlaw, Devore, KEF, Magnapan, Klipsch, Ohm, Buchardt, Edifier, Wharfdale, Martin Logan, B&W, etc etc etc. Pick a budget, pick a sound, sit back and enjoy.
Exactly. Betty doesn't know wtf she's on about.
In simple terms: Wages did not keep pace with the cost of HiEnd Audio.....heck in the last 30 years wages did not keep pace with anything...college, healthcare, housing....
I just saw your answer when I was finished writing about the same haha! So true, great post.
Globalization was the main cause as companies got away with outsourcing to cheaper countries and we have to compete with cheap labor in Asia and other places.
Help israel...thousands of millons of american money and blood goes every year to israel.
@My Name Yup, I own a Classe' amp, used to be designed & manufactured in Montreal, Canada. Amazing quality, craftsmanship... then their owner (B&W at the time) decided to move production to China, I even emailed their CEO at the time and told em, that's a mistake, NO ONE would buy a premium $10K+ product made in china... not only the idiots moved there, they also cheapened the product, made it Class D, and then they stopped selling, it was all crap! Then B&W was sold, they discontinued Classe' but Denon recently bought them and they WILL bring the design back to Montreal, and manufacturing to Japan... now there's more interest. I personally would NEVER pay premium pricing for HiFi made in China! Same as I won't be paying for brand name Italian suites, made in China, etc...
@@AudiS4orce1 You sound like a paranoid old geezer. If China is good enough to make highend carbon frames for downhill bikes and not kill anyone, it's good enough to turn on an SMT line and build some amps. Not sure if you're racist or just ignorant. If you wan't to blame anyone, blame Classe and B&W. The fact that they were made in China means very little.
I have just recently discovered this channel. I am not really an audiophile - just a working musician. This channel is so relaxing and informative at the same time. Great content.
The Loudness wars......All Compression, no dynamic range. No high end equipment can fix that.
I agree that we're somewhat (mostly even?) enslaved to the quality of recording and mastering.CD potentially has a very good dynamic range,but as you rightly say is at times,very compressed.Dare i say that the rise of home theater and lifestyle type audio systems has also had some infuence on the type of sound that many have become uccustomed to listening to,and therefore seek out,believing it to be ''good sound''.Some manufacturers will inevitably continue to produce products that follow this trend sonically .The unpredictability of trends and fashions will often dictate.
@@oliverbeard7912 yes, its sad really. There has always been "levels" of equipment, and, dare I say, education/definition on what is/was considered "high fidelity". I guess some people are happy with what makes them comfortable, kind of like cars, food, clothing, etc. Some of it can be monetarily driven as well. I became much more interested in true sound quality listening to my father talking about and playing music on his (and my favorite) cousins' systems starting when I was around 7 or 8, it was revelation. And he had VERY nice equipment in the early to mid 70's (Marantz, The Fisher, Superscope, Thorens, AR, Ohm etc. ). That was my XBox and PS 4 back then, LOL.
Jep just what I thought.
Bass wars. 🙈
I think the writer of that letter is looking back at those days with rose colored glasses. I worked in the audio industry for many of those years(for manufacturers and in retail) and saw firsthand some of the junk that was being foisted on the consumers back then. Speakers, in particular, were a huge crap shoot. Many of the smaller companies would produce stuff that sounded good, but was almost impossible to drive, or was so delicate that the mere drop of a stylus on the record would pop a woofer. Electronics was all over the map too. Solid state gear still had to catch up on the sound quality scale, and tube gear had nearly disappeared except for Audio Research gear. And that stuff.....never mind. Today's choice of amplification is huge at all price levels, and a good chunk of it sounds really good. A well engineered pair of really good sounding speakers can be had today for under $1000, with sound quality that was unachievable from all but the most expensive stuff from the '70s. The biggest problem is that there's no good way to really audition anything. Show demos tend to sound lousy, and Bricks and Mortar stores have all but disappeared. The internet has been brutal on retail stores in general, and high end audio is one of those areas where expert after sales assistance is often necessary. Hard to get that from an online seller.
People aren't considering the massive improvement in tech over the decades. Rose colored glasses indeed
Thanks for all the awesome videos Paul...you are still making a big difference at 71 and looking young!
What does your son think of active crossovers, time alignment...?
The studios don't produce music of high quality anymore
I agree.... I really like a lot of new rock music, but it's so loud & compressed that it sounds terrible on a good audio system.
And what studios would those be? ... If you can't find good stuff in the 21st century, you're not looking very hard.
When you are producing music for MP3's and lossy streaming, why care about the dynamics? At least with some studios, that seems to be the mentality
@@stewutah-mandoI don't think that has anything to do with "quality." It's common knowledge that Phil Spector made records so they'd sound good coming out of portable transistor radios and car radios. Doesn't matter: Crystals and Ronettes were phenomenal, despite the dubious recording quality. Again, what are these studios? I honestly can't picture what you have in mind?
Yes they do the mastering may be another story though....
Not too be cruel, but if you were old enough in the 70s to appreciate a good system, you may not have the ears to appreciate one in 2020.
Whudja say?
🤯🤯 71 years old time has been kind to you you look great I hope you live to be over a hundred and you really are just 35 if you stand on one leg LOL love you Paul keep up the good work you're a living legend
Most of those that ask a lot from an expensive hi-fi system don't bother too much to think of the listening room. I made this mistake, spending almost 10k euros and expected awsome results no matter what. I ended up by being disapointed but only until i listened to them in a proper room. I was simply amazed by the difference.
Very good perspective on the current state of audio equipment. As an audio equipment enthusiast myself for decades, I'd like to know how tough would it be for a top Japanese manufacturer to produce a current equivalent version of a Sony STR-V7, a Sansui 9090, a Pioneer SX-1980, a Technics SA-1000, etc., equipment that was produced over 40 years ago. These were all incredibly engineered pieces of equipment. Obviously, they would be quite costly to produce today, but im sure there would be long waiting list ordering one of these today! Yamaha does come the closest to this level in there S Series integrated amps, which is reflected in the price. Interested to hear other enthusiasts perspectives on this.
It's like a jungle out there sometimes it makes me wonder how I keep from going under.--Grand Master Flash
I'd love to know what all that equipment on the shelves is.
A video perhaps?
I consider myself extremely lucky to have been a young person during that era and am especially grateful that my dad got me hooked on audio.
I also had the jaw dropping experience with the Mark Levinson ML-2 amps with the ML-1 preamp, but with Magnapan Tympany IV speakers. That experience was so powerful, that when I finally discovered just recently that they could power my Sound Lab speakers, (they put out 25 watts, I thought I needed at least 100), I bought a pair. They still have the same magic they had in 1978, my electrostatics have never sounded better. They were the world's most expensive amplifiers at the time, the equivalent of $25,000 now, and I couldn't afford them. They would not be considered particularly expensive today. On the affordable side however, things have never been better.
I dunno, back then lots of terrible speakers were kicking around too. And these days, sure there some stinkers, but there's a lot of quality people making quality gear. You can also get some really nice sounding gear for not that much too. I get nostalgia, but I'd take audio in 2019 vs 1960/70. ;)
Sometimes memories become more a mythology as the years pass.
Remember when someone would just drive up to you and say they had a bunch of extra speakers in the truck that the customer refused delivery? Or they were quitting that day and wanted to screw their employer. And they'd always let them for ten cents on the dollar! Amazingly high end brands for nothing!
And they were the absolute worst sort of counterfeit trash.
@@Audfile , yeah, problem with that is those speakers are still around so you can hear the "mythology". It's not like the old gods. Sheesh.
I feel like at one of my past audio systems I was very satisfied and yet over the years I’ve upgraded again and again, and it feels like I’m not enjoying music any more I’m just finding myself analyzing all the time and I believe that’s what high end audio do to you,
I really miss my quad 57 with marantz 8b back in the days it was all about the music.
They started adding more zeros to the price of their gold bezeled products with limited change in sound quality.
Easy market to rip off with snake oil. Just pander to their overblown sense of superiority in their own abilities in the ears department. Throw into the mix of 'science' and the fact people equate high prices with quality and you're onto a winner.
That's why I decided to go active DIY years ago, I just couldn't justify the tens of thousands extra to go to the next level of speakers. OK my speakers may not be as pretty but they sound great.
Am so glad I got out of this insane hobby/business,every year it gets crazier and crazier.And it will die, the average age of your typical hifi-er is in the 50's,a few in their 40's and thanks to the snake oil, insane prices it scares all the young people from getting into it.
@@hifijohn Well said.
There is plenty of excellent, affordable modern gear out there, the problem is that it takes a lot of time and effort to determine what works well together. Long gone are the days when you could walk into a hifi store with relatively little knowledge and ask them to put together a system with good synergy that meets a certain price point. Nowadays it requires reading reviews, talking to people in forums, connecting with local enthusiasts, and a fair amount of admittedly expensive trial and error to get things right.
Yep buy and sell on eBay til everything comes together. Takes a lot of time and money with trial and error but worth it once you get everything in sync.
Many years ago a UK speaker manufacturer put classical musicians on stage and half way through they stopped playing and the music came from the speakers. The audience didn't notice the change. Yet the same company "upgraded" their speakers regularly ever since. Everybody still says their products are perfect, then finds a way to "improve" them next year. Have ears got better?
Room treatment seems to add a warmer tone and more focused sound that takes the harshness out of digital.
Hi end audio still has some awesome equipment out there if one can afford it , like moon products, were do u get 10 year warranty now days not many do besides a few companies.
I hear new systems and they still have coloration problems just like the old days. My system is from about 1980 and I don't plan on changing anything until I hear something better. I get incredible bass from my system but it might not be as open as it used to be but I'm in a different room. We only have one remaining stereo store and the owner is a friend of mine and he's talking about getting out of the business.
I agree that there is a bright future. I appreciate the high end audiophiles, but am more of a practical / economical listener. The world changed for people like me in 1985, when we bought our first CD player and could justify purchasing the elements of a good component stereo system because there was a silent background (no needle on vinyl records), no variance from warped records, and no degradation of quality after repeated playing of the media. Great quality became affordable to everyone, and that is a wonderful development.
oddly enough on newer music, I find a lot of more indie recording efforts can actually produce better sounding mixes/mastering than the stuff that comes out on the big three.
just a thought for y'all that people actually prefer this.
also with newer equipment, if you know where you to look you can get a lot further on a budget. If people cared enough to spend a couple of hundred, everyone could have access to really decent audio.
I agree, many indie recordings have a more raw sound, if that makes sense. Not over produced. Just a little more real and less electric sounding
@@ericnortan9012 definetly not the californication album by red hot chilli peppers
@@ernestochang1744 👍of course
The "whatever happened to high end audio" question has been asked every year for more than 30 years for my ears. I remember subscribing to Stereophile in 1987. The occasional debate THEN from readers was "whatever happened to high end audio?" I've been hearing that question ever since. It seems the golden age for high end was the 40s and 50s, and starting with the 60s I guess it has become the eternal question. Ah, the "good ole days."
Extremely well said! Paul is an amazing speaker, he makes things so easy to understand.
What i notice is a steep rise in price ; the new kef ref on metanow is 9000, the old 202/2's were 5000 go figure....the new style is somewhat more detailed, but i dont especially dig that asit gets tiring after awhile...
I have a pioneer from 1981, the sa 9800. I myself have also built a few "voigt speakers. This design comes from 1931. It is equipped with 8" Full-Range driver with tang bang. And it sounds incredibly musical. And didn't spend more than 800 euros on it. So hige end can certainly be cheaper.
What does live sound like? Just curious, since almost all "live" music today is carried digitally...
It's beyond audio, you such a honest and wise man, such nice person to talk to .
IMHO... One of the biggest factors I have noticed that affect the quality of music, is the quality of the recording. How it was mastered. Modern music is afflicted with this inconsistent variable lucky dip. Often times, the same song found on different albums will yield variations between each CD. The loudness wars haven't helped in this regard. Recordings for the masses, with their infinite variations in audio equipment being used, have muddied the quality being delivered from the record labels.
There really needs to be some consensus in achieving a high standard from all music producers. To bring back quality, high fidelity, high dynamic range in their offerings. A renewed focus on quality would actually provide more incentive for consumers to look for higher quality audio equipment that would take advantage of it.
We have seen growth in the visual, home theater industry due to consumer demand for the latest high resolution, multiple surround sound technology. This is the wave that the high end audio industry should be riding. I have always wondered why the audio / music industry haven't been pushing the drive for surround sound or quadraphonic recordings & systems. Bit like driving a car with only the front speakers playing.
Perhaps people have gotten wise to how severely the law of diminishing returns applies to home stereo sound reproduction -- and to the fact that the audible advantages of spending anything beyond four figures on audio gear are nearly impossible to quantify, let alone describe without resorting to ultra-subjective terminology tantamount what one hears at a lifted-pinky wine tasting.
information and technology are so much more accessible today.. calibrated mics, (free) apps, miniDSPs, proper soundcards, etc. it's the first time we can record and reproduce sounds with greater resolution and range than the human hearing, and it took just a decade to bring them to some VERY low prices..
Paul, you did watch the BBC documentary "Microbes and Men" from 1974, right? I watched it too, in the 1980s here in Brazil.
Part of it is also the way music is made these days. Anything modern is designed to be listened to on cheap beats and apple headphones because thats what everyone uses. I see it in college everyday. 60% of college students use airpods or something similar in sound quality/reproduction
Paul, the AN's you unveiled at Axpona sounded very, very good. I didn't want to leave your room to be honest. They were the best speakers I heard there followed by the Goldenear's next door to you.
The buying experience has gone the way to buying online without auditioning the equipment. Used to be High End stores around with knowledgable staff to help. I was worked as an audiophile sales person. Hardly find a hifi shop these days.
I think the real Innovation in sound quality happened in the 70's. That's when the big manufacturers were competing hardest to outdo each other. Sure, speakers have improved significantly but as far as amplification is concerned, specs have not improved in leaps and bounds, only the quality of the transistors, capacitors etc have improved. For example. how do we get distortion levels any lower and get a big improvement in sound quality. THD levels of some of the better gear from the late 70's and early 80's was as low as .0001%. I feel like all manufacturers have done since then is try to reinvent the wheel. Sure, We have new technologies such as class D etc but our hearing limitations are a big factor as to why we are unable to make improvements in sound quality that "WOW!" us. The 70's really were the Golden Ages in the respect that we nearly reached the pinnacle in audio innovation.
That's my opinion. I welcome yours.
@My Name As far as speakers are concerned, I can only go by what I've read. I still have my speakers from the mid 70's. I enjoy them very much even though I know there are much better speakers to be had. Maybe Paul will let me audition a pair of PS Audio speakers in my home. 😀
@My Name i have the same issue.
I have an issue when the exact same speaker now costs at least 50% more than it did 5 years ago. The customer feels ripped off.
@My Name -- Try a pair of smaller/cheaper old JBL bookshelf speakers with a decent subwoofer. The E-V Sentry 100A is often available very reasonably, especially if the foam tweeter rings and/or the woofer surrounds need work -- it's way smaller than a JBL L-100/4311 and IMO at least as good an overall performer.
@My Name -- Me too. I have my JBL LX22s and Pioneer HTP-102 sub (both modded) in a "nearfield" setup at my home office desk.
when i was a kid in the 60s we had a Ford where the center part of the back window rolled down. no seat belts. kids were getting ping ponged out the back window in accidents. or just through playing around and falling out.
You didn't really address the matter of the question IMO. The letter describes the same thing I see also in the business. High-end audio has changed (in general) more to bling bling casings and selling stories. I cringe when I have a look inside much audio gear. Many things brought to us as improvement has been only about cost reduction. There is really something going on which you didn't speak out. It is part of the much broader economic spectrum: we are led to believe we still have buying power, there is not a lot of inflation, but it is only hidden in the fact that everything gets worse, not better: the food, the cars to name some. Keep denying and telling fairy stories, I see with my own eyes what is happening.
Exactly! He talked about catalytic converters, etc... but the question was, high-end companies are adding fancy chassis to crap electronics inside, like ALL Class-D crap is made from same modules, only fancier enclosure! Hence, I would never pay premium for Class-D, even M700 from PS Audio, it's simply a re-branding of ICE chips found in receivers!
Exactly. I found it bizarre that Paul is bringing up these things that are obvious improvements, like catalytic converters, doctors washing hands, etc. What is happening in audio, and in many other industries, is the opposite of that. The quality keeps getting worse, but it's being sold to us as what we want. It's happening in cars, even house construction. The idea is, instead of giving the customer what they want, you make what's profitable, and then convince the customer that it's what they wanted all along. Just look at all the ugly box houses going up.
He addressed the question. His point was that things change. Technology changes, just like knowledge in medicine and the automotive industry changes. People freak out in high end audio if it's not class A with heat sinks that comprise half the chassis. Good example....I have a Threshold 400A class A amp. Fully restored. Sounds great. Sounds better than great. I also have a way more modern Class AB Sunfire 300 Two that has no heat sinks, basically runs cool 24/7 and puts out a ton of clean power. It also has a warm sound to it....just like my Threshold. Technology changed alot in 45 years. Not slamming the old gear but not all of the new stuff is bad or overpriced. That's exactly what Paul said. I agree with him 100%
@@pounds85 no he didn't. he agreed that there's less companies doing it right (to keep it short), he then said change is good and brought up completely irrelevant analogies to try and support the claim. the examples he brought up were for public safety and didn't hurt at all. where as these changes to speakers are genuinely pissing enthusiasts off for absolutely no gain beyond $$$
what the question was about was the drop in quality in general from the industry. just having a couple manufacturers still doing the right thing doesn't negate the question.
and now we have a generation of kids growing up thinking that this over compressed and loud boomy kick bass sound is great and manufacturers and studios are catering to them, which is only going to perpetuate the issue further.
I hope im wrong, but if my system ever packs in im stuffed because with a family of 5 and a mortgage i, like most of the public don't have thousands of dollars to spend on a decent enough speakers.
The common opinion that the elderly have that older products are better than current ones is just psychologic bias just like their feeling that time runs faster. Take cars for example. It is an objective fact that modern cars have much better mileage ratings than older cars due not only to hybrid power trains but conventional cars do as well. It is an objective fact that the US vehicle fatality rate is less than half the rate of 30 years ago. And we have not yet seen the impact of the latest computer controlled accident avoidance techniques. Perhaps sadly, the reason we don't see a similar improvement in audio equipment is that electronic audio gear essentially became perfect years ago. Objective measures of distortion, power output, noise floor have been perfect for some time. If you believe modern equipment is worse than older stuff perhaps it is just your aging hearing. Speakers and transducers are much less linear than electronics so differences are easier to spot but these differences are not generational. Lastly what you call bling is styling to others and may be worth a premium.
With the rise in turntable popularity, why don’t integrated amps with phono stages have subsonic filter switches? I won’t even use a preamp that doesn’t have one . So useful and convenient.
The questioner may as well be talking about the recording industry and doesn't realise it. Any 'proper' hifi will majorly accurately portray what is on the media it's playing and if what's on the media has been poorly recorded, mastered etc then that's how it will sound on a 'proper' hifi. How it will sound via earbuds is another matter.
In my personal experience, almost zero recordings sound like the 'real thing'. You can never mistake the sound of a real band or instrument with vinyl, CD or cassette. It just doesn't happen and that's in part down to speakers, as they're the furthest from being able to accurately reproduce signals without colouring them and to the recording and mastering process.
Record/music producers have a choice. Do they produce music for the overwhelming majority who listen via their phones or streaming via their computers to listen via earbuds or airplay pod speakers or do they produce music for the tiny, insignificant amount of 'audiophiles' who make up a fraction of a fraction of a fraction etc of all music users?
It's no competition. The music industry goes for the biggest market by far and produces the music in a way that sounds best on compromised machinery., You can't create an album to sound good on ear buds and even begin to hope it's going to sound as good through a hifi system with full range speakers. It aint possible.
@My Name Strangely, or not, downloading music offers the chance for an album to be recorded and mastered more than one way. When you go online to buy your album you could be presented with the choice of 'mastered for hifi', 'mastered for earbuds' sort of thing. Sure, it's a bit more effort at the front end in the studio, but it's one way.
I'm so glad I got the Magnat Vintage 5 speakers for a really cheap price. Except the dipoles. Don't have those
You put me a great ease by saying all that, and I wasn’t event too worried to begin with. Thank you, Paul.
You are one good egg.
I hope you had a great birthday too, Paul!
Arnie Nudell passed away a few years ago?? So which Arnie Nudell passed away a few months ago?
Have a Happy Birthday!!
Why the statement that the goal of high end audio is to reproduce live sound? I don't think it is, nor that it should be.
I’m from South Australia, and over the past 25 years I have seen a lot of changes happen. One very sad change I have seen, is that the Automotive industry is now pretty much dead in Australia. First Mitsubishi shut down its production in Adelaide, then Ford in Victoria, then again GM Holden here in Elizabeth, not far from where I live in Adelaide just last year. Very sad times, many people losing their jobs and a part of Australia’s proud history has disappeared forever.
As far as audio goes to me, I have noticed 2ch audio quality had started to slip, when people were starting to become more interested in home theatre sound, Dolby Digital, DTS ect. All of a sudden 2ch HiFi didn’t matter as much in budget audio anymore. My 7.1ch Yamaha HDMI receiver is great for movies and gaming, but does not serve very well as 2ch HiFi for music. It just doesn’t have the same warm feeling that my old Technics system used to give me.
I take this angle. Technology has dropped the price of everything. Home computers were 5 grand in the early 80's. Todays cheapest smart phones blow them out of the water. Todays inexpensive to mid range gear has decades of R and D behind it and massively improved tech. You can easily get 80% of the best sound for well under a grand. Lux watches are a good comparison as well. Hand crafted mechanical watches have their place, but a simple digital does more and keeps time much more accurately. Seems to be a question of perception and the "luxury" market. Fun stuff though
take for example a decent old tube amp and compare it with a mediocre receiver of 2019... frequency response, distortion and efficiency, they're all improved and are also accessible -up to a point.. let's think about the wireless speakers they sell these days, how do they compare to the portable speakers we used only 20yrs ago? :}
It is kind of a crazy time. Parts of the industry seem crazy both with product and pricing, and the time horizon for digital products seem really short and predisposed to create a culture of disposability. Meaning the so called improvements happen so fast that the newest digital products, interfaces, protocols make older products obsolete in a way that analog audio never did. At the same time there are better sounding affordable products in the market place and it's not difficult to get very good sound on a real person's budget if great sound is your goal. On the other hand the disposability aspects makes cheap bad sounding products available in abundance you need to be able to sort through that stuff.
Mark Levinson is producing audio again. Daniel Hertz Audio.
He lives in Venice Italy.
do you know how many lives are saved if we ban , for example , bungee jumping ? or say , driving more than 40 km/hour ?
the formula is not " do it if it saves lives " it is more complex than that .
Apogees (Jason Bloom). They still sound good. Cary still makes killer stuff. Dennis didn’t care about price points. Vintage stuff is bowing up.
UberPilot Apogee went out of business years ago. Jason Bloom died in 2003
Modern equipment is high definition and revealing of recording quality. Play a great recording on it and it sounds great. Most modern recordings are simply not good enough. End of.
I have a record player and a P.A and almost anything produced from about the 90's on-wards sounds better digital just cause the P.A speakers but if get a ZZ Top or Led Zeppelin or Tom Petty vinyl record it sounds amazing (p.s Live gigs are loud and I like loud music.)
@@user-so3jo8wt8k I like loud recordings too, but I need to be in a special kind of mood to enjoy Led Zeppelin II with all that distorted and clipped low end... :} it sounds like the whole album was recorded in red...
anyways, they still make good music, they still make great recordings, especially with 'new' high resolution equipment.. let's not forget that not too long ago the masters were on tapes, and even before any editing the bit depth of that tape was well below 8bits...
In the old days EQs were part of every rack to help with the bad recordings(and room acoustics of course). Now they are pretty rare. I own one but haven't used it in years. Some recordings I want to break it out and clean em' up. Especially streaming, some are excellent, many not so much.
Maybe it's most on speakers; But I think you will have to pay a lot for hand crafted and tuned speakers these days.Back in the old days that was more of the norm.
The main 'modern' issue with high end audio is kinda obvious: loudness wars.
Has nothing to do with change; I've been born way after the loudness wars began.
The last good quality amplifier I bought is the Creek evolution2 for 750 pounds from 2011 wonderful amplifier and the cd player 730 pounds
Great Paul, thanks.... a further problem are the amazing audiophile quality yet low priced products coming from Chinese brands and OEM manufacturers who are making them for international brands, including Sonus Faber, Magnat, Vincent. So, for example. Edifier and HiVi Swans speakers first come to mind. For around $500 you get bookshelf/standmount audiophile quality sound including gorgeous cabinetry, with superb digital amplification/DAC built in. that's where hi end audio went, downstream to where the expensive esoteric stuff isn't worth it unless you're simply a rich collector. And don't get me wrong, that's great! But the reality is that at the $1500 and $5000 price points for a system, you can now buy 90% of what a $30,000 system will produce. In fact, costs to produce audiophile quality have come down, not gone up. Hi end is for rich people, fine, great, but the actual musical performance differences are less and less. I listened side by side to a pair of JBL Array $11,000 / pr , yes extremely amazing and expensive, yet next to the JBL 530 standmounters we recommend at medium volume level, there is no appreciable important sound difference except for a higher volume of bass output, which if you are listening to an acoustic jazz trio doesn't even matter. See the problem? Look here at the Insane World of Guangzhou Audio Markets and you see for yourself ua-cam.com/video/iGreY8bUOpE/v-deo.html Cheers, Mario
Idont know what high end was costing back in the day but I just came back from Munich high end 2019 and I assure you that high end is alive and well. I was a bit surprised that the top of the top was the majority of the expositions. Alternativly, Low beats magazine was using some concept 40s as part of a roon demonstration and they sounded like thousands of dollars worth of speaker. 95 percent of other speakers there I think we're over 5k and may be 20 pct over 100k. This is just my estimation...
This has been bantered about much on the Net. We were even talking about that phenomena of your first listening experience in 'hifi', or at least something close to it. I made the comment that I haven't been really overly impressed with anyone's system since that first 'hifi' saturation experience. I'm sure however, that I could walk into Paul's showroom and be completely blown away. But my point is that I haven't been astounded by anyone's home system for decades, especially as they morphed into HT and less about just stereo. You could argue that the people with $100,00+ systems wouldn't usually invite me into their homes. OK well...whose fault is that, mine or theirs? So we're back to the showroom presentation again. I just don't like going into a high-end showroom unless I'm prepared to buy.....that's what it boils down to for me anyway. So I wonder if the person who posed the question of 'hif' dying out has really been to some seriously dedicated 'hifi' showrooms recently? If not, they should venture to PS Audio at least.......
Who makes those bookcases?
I was wondering the same thing. They're very cool!
Parris George Maybe Paul will enlighten us?
LOL!.. everything looked and sounded "better" when we were young..
My eyesight, let alone my hearing, were at another level which, made my brain process sights and sounds in a much more satisfying way.
..yet, I will admit, the introduction of digital formats changed the music reproduction dramatically.
That is why (in my view), so many people are going back to vinyl sources and the analogue 'sound' reproduction of music.
It's a return to the sound that Betty is nostalgic about.
Amen! I truly believe that the kind of sound people like is imprinted in their memories at a very early age. The vast majority of what the "old folks" are searching for today is the sound that thrilled them so much when they first heard dad's or a friend's dad's hi fi system. But I'll bet if you played them that same exact sound today, many would say: "Really? That's what I was so impressed with"?
Speakers and electronics have improved a lot in the past thirty years. The letter writer might want the old (nostalgic) sound which had been substituted by a higher fidelity, more neutral and revealing sound found in modern hi-end gears.
Newsflash - there wasn't one sound back in 1979. Cheap and cheerful stuff sounded cheap and cheerful, and more expensive stuff sounded - surprise, surprise - higher fidelity, more neutral and revealing. My Luxman amp is 38 years old, but I strongly suspect it could hold its own against many a modern high-end amp.
Things went really hard and bright during the 90's and never calmed down. Not easy finding stuff that's pleasant and soothing to the ear anymore.
Dynaudio Contour. I sold a pair last week to someone exactly for that reason (most of hifi eq was to forward and screamy for him). I love this series.
@@awdadwadwad1723 I'll have to check those out, thanks.
I think a lot of older people who try to compare modern hi-fi equipment with what they remember from their youth fail to recognize that their hearing has degraded over the years. It is subtle but everyone suffers this loss.
The sound quality you get for half a month wages now, is way better then in the seventies. For those who are never satisfied, there is a big money pit called high end. The building quality has indeed deteriorated, machines aren't made to last decades anymore.
I thought the question was based around the production high quality music? Not the gear its played on? I even watched this twice and took away the same belief. ??
Nowadays components are better and cheaper, and DSP is powerful and available to the masses. There's really no justification in buying overpriced components.
It's really just a nirvana that manufacturers keep selling, and unfortunately most people buy it.
only people needing dsps are one with shit systems or rooms
@@awdadwadwad1723 -- Those "shit rooms" are a fact of life for everyone other than the fortunate few who can afford to choose their residences based on acoustics.
DSP = dog shit pile.
I don't think "High Res Audio" 96/24 ~ 192/24 is the be all to end all compared to a quality recording on vinyl. I listen to both. And any high end speaker with hi-res source claiming 50khz output is not inherently better than a system that rolls off @ 20khz. Unless you were born yesterday, you can't hear 20khz.. imo, too much HF bouncing around the room (you can't hear) just tends to screw up what you can hear.
I agree with Paul about resistance to change as i see this every day. Some people can't even shift from Windows 7 to 10. We all have to move on. The difficulty when living in the present is determining the genuine improvements from the bogus, superficial or even non-existent ones. With that in mind high-end manufacturers have a lot of explaining to do. Questions like; - Why so many boxes when things can be included in just one? Why are some components so expensive when what's in the case is relatively basic. Maybe they think they're like drug companies. Ultimately, you might learn a lot when you hear what they use to demonstrate their equipment and where. In the case of PS Audio I believe Paul when he says they have their heart in the right place but I remain a little sceptical over elements such as their power conditioning products. If this is necessary then a) why is it so expensive and b) why not build it as standard into all their equipment.
That outro was borderline ASMR.
We are living in the era of great cost benefit. Swan and Edifier both offer great affordable active speakers. Headphones are better than they ever be, with affordable dacs and amps. It's all about research and getting good info.
Apple's *$3 billion* purchase of Beats indicates where the kids are at. For now? To quote Meghan Trainor, it's "All About That Bass." They are seeking the same thing that high-end audio enthusiasts (HAEs) are after. It's a feeling. For HAEs, it's the feeling of being in the best seats in the concert hall or in the front row listening to their favourite bands. People who grew up "In Da Club" and going to EDM and rap/hiphop shows want to feel the heart-palpitating *four-on-the-floor* beats.
I was one of those bass heads. After I started learning to sing, play instruments and record music, I found myself gravitating to high-end audio because I knew I wasn't hearing what was supposed to be there. We can complain all we want about lossy music formats, but the truth is people will not invest if they don't know or care about the experiences that they are missing.
Finally, let's not skirt around the obvious. High-end audio is a *luxury good!* No one needs an audiophile system costing tens- or hundreds of thousands of dollars. The luxuries of one generation are the relics of another. There's no way that in-home audiophile gear can compete with a $500 pair of Beats cans.
If decision-makers in the industry took off their engineering caps once in a while, they'd find a lot of new opportunities in a hurry. This is not a scientific result, but from what I can tell, the vast majority of audiophiles (myself included) have analytical backgrounds. This includes education and training in science, technology, engineering (of course), and mathematics. What percentage of the population does this represent? The good news is that a subtle shift to communicating in terms of "why" not "what" can start a transformation. Looking at the lifecycle customers can generate cradle-to-grave relationships. Maybe a better way to say this is, make products to nurture the market. The PS Audio Sprout seems like a shot at reaching out to a demographic that's not at a point in their lives where they are ready, willing, or capable of going all-in on an audiophile system.
Of course, with things the way they are, too many not-so-young people are still living with their parents, roommates, or "affordable" apartments (read as small and very expensive). The solutions for this one are not really within the scope of the audio industry. But it's necessary to recognize its place when answering, "What the hell happened to high-end audio?"
Paul your going off on a tangent lol. The subject is hi fi lol. I have been in this industry since the early 80's selling, designing and calibrating the very best in high end audio. No doubt the industry has changed and in a number of ways. One many of the original designers of high end audio were avid music lovers themselves. They designed and tuned there equipment to sound musical. Musicality was the priority, not ultra detail like many manufacturers are after today. Equipment and manufactures have changed there priorities over the years and more detail became the goal. Some manufactures are also trying to achieve neutrality which honestly can sound sterile and involving. Also I think many of the dealers either dont have the knowledge or experience to design systems that are both musical, and detailed. A very tough thing to achieve, its a fine line. Challenging to have detail and musicality in a system especially if you dont know how to combine speakers and equipment that create that balance.
So the bottom line, is i think many manufactures today are trying to design equipment that is ultra detailed but cross that line and compromise musicality. Plus I think there are few people in the industry who know how to design and setup a system properly.
There is some great equipment out there today, its learning and playing with speakers and equipment to create that sound your after. So you can go to dealers and listen to their systems and that will tell you if their systems sound like music and to your liking. if so then follow their lead on helping you design a system for you. Otherwise your going to have to play with equipment to get the sound your after. Most dealers will allow you take equipment home to try in your system.
Kevin
40 years high end audio video specialist
facebook.com/latourhighendaudio/
Nowadays any functioning computer (including tablets and smartphones) is a perfectly adequate source. DACs achieved audible transparency years ago and most devices have audibly transparent DACs. You don't need to spend much to get a transparent amp and system speakers are the future which allows you to dump most of the boxes. Good audio gear has been commoditised, I don't see that as a bad thing.
It's a simple matter of massive tech improvement. It seems peeps want that elusive element of "exclusitivity".
Hi end audio died when the Compact Disk arrived in 1982.
I like the present of high-end audio and have faith on its future. For one it is much easier and affordable to have a high performing system. Luxurious high end gear doesn’t automatically translate into a good sonic experience. I think we are in an era of practical high-end audio.
"Change" is the only constant. I'm surprised more people don't realize this. 'nuff said,
There will always be experts and those within the hierarchy, even some company owners, whose heart is in the right place. You'll also have conglomorates, business, investors and accountants driving another angle.
On the gear side ... You'll always have analog purists and vintage fanciers. I don't think it's too far away that 'purist Audiophiles' will accept emerging technologies e.g, Roon (DSP), Meridian (MQA), Dirac (Room Correction). Even Bluetooth will make strides.
I feel like i have never heard proper audio
Some of the newer speaker companies now like elac and flusnce make some really good speakers at a reasonable price that are a lot better than what I could have bought for the same amount of money 30 years ago plus I have a little cheap about $40 class D amplifier then I use at my desk with a built-in deck that sounds three times better than my pioneer receiver that I bought in 78 things are changing but I think for the better
Yeah, some of that Class D stuff coming out of China -- almost all of it built around excellent chips designed in Europe and the U.S. -- is every bit as good as the humongous gear of the 1970s and 1980s. I had a pretty good system based on an SAE preamp and Adcom power amp back in the day, and my current system -- a tiny 2.1 Class D amp and carefully selected/modified second-hand speakers -- sounds every bit as good AFAICT.
High end audio is changing because most of the music people listen to is digital, digitally created, loud, heavily compressed, and bass dominant, and consumers expect a system capable and tuned to this in a convenient and Apple-style package.
The notion of a system that reproduces the sound of live music is becoming a foreign concept as much live music today is becoming more like recorded music, run through digital mixers with plugin effects and heavy processing on every channel, and few people go to hear a chamber orchestra.
Well put Paul. Thank you
An utter lack of performances worthy of listening to are the biggest factor. The music industry SUCKS ! Does anyone remember what the expression, music theory means?
Ever since the mp3 era and just before it started going downhill in quality. Too much audio compression causing artifacts in sound. There was a point I would no longer use headphones because the audio quality was so horrible. Lately there seems to be some light In the horizon but there is just way too much music out there horribly mixed and mastered.
thank you analyst you hit the nail on the head. In the analog days it was studio players and singers to master tapes, then on and on. It was being real, no synthesizers or Cher fake voice warbles. So now we have compressed MP3s. Gone are the days when FM stereo tape or record broadcasting could be recorded on your reel to reel. Then played with the R-R built in preamp through your analog tube or transistorized amp-or just buy well done pre made tapes or LPs to play through your quality components including speakers with synergy matching your layout. It all was just REAL. Now just what is it that is playing that sounds artificial (yes pure), but where is the musicality? Just my opinion .Do many people know what they are really after? Reminds me of the guys who bought a new Dodge Hemi and drove it 50 mph all the time saying (wow this car is fast-duh), Never the less, loud noise does not make a fine hi-fi system really rock to its true potential.
Shitty recordings are definitely part of the answer. Especially with non-acoustic music genres. I was listening to JBL 4367 powered by Lewinsons at Toronto audiophile show (after hours, when all the grey-haired audiophile geezers left). We were playing Metal. Out of two modern recordings, one (Rammstein's latest) was dynamic and 3D and the other recording (one newer Megadeth album) was flat, distant, seemed coming out of the next room. Perhaps the issue is the recordings, not the speakers.
old "Schiit".... I like that....
The price is what is killing high end audio. Even when I didn't make much money, top AR, CJ, etc were not that far out of reach expect the Infinity IRS. Speaker cables and interconnects were not priced into the craziness stratosphere. Yes, there is budget audio, and it's very good. But the IRS were $20k..... you have Magico with $600k horn speakers and lots of speakers in the $200k plus category that appeal to the 1%.
I stopped buy gear many many years ago. To "upgrade" what I have will cost thousands more than I am willing to spend. The "high" in high end means high money.
Back in 1972 I was a base grade clerk and my stereo cost me ~$US700, a quarter of my annual salary. The equivalent today is $US8,000 and that will buy _much_ better gear. My current system is worth ~US5,000 and it completely blows away what I had back then. My speakers in 1972 were 8 inch twin cone drivers in home-made cabinets to save money! My amplifier was rated at 15W per channel. Instead of worrying about the high end where you can spend $200,000 on an amp, look at what you can afford and what you get for the amount you spend. Audiophiles never had it so good!
@@jonathansturm4163 maybe I wasn't clear enough in my post. The cost of the best in the era I was talking about was not totally out of reach for me. Now it is. Understand now? It is a comparison of cost today vs way back when and how it's escalated.
Your analogy to your salary and gear cost is not accurate. $700 in 1972 is about $4200 now. This according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics consumer price index. I would also think that your current system sounds better... you spent more and I bet you don't have "home made" speakers. I would hope that the gear today sounds much better than yesteryear when things were just starting to happen and hifi was starting to take off.
Nowhere in my post did I ever say I was worried about spending $200k. Please do not infer what isn't there. I know what I can afford and have bought accordingly. For me to "upgrade" would cost 10's of thousands more than I am willing spend for incremental improvements.
If it's such a great time to be an audiophile, where is everyone?
The best sounding speakers I ever heard were $2000.00 in 1980. To get speakers that sound almost the same today is $12,000.00. I still own and use those $2000.00 speakers from 1980. The Infinity IRS when I heard them back in the 90's were $160,000.00 and while they sounded great I still preferred my speakers.
@@andershammer9307 The speakers that I really really loved were my Acoustat 1+1 medallion mod. Reproducing the lowest organ pedals caused the membranes to "rattle" as they tried to reproduce the sound, even at low volume levels. Sadly, I sold them when I bought Von Schweikert VR4's. No low end problems and they were quite good. There are better speakers out there, but they would cost a LOT more than what I spent on these. I am quite content with my audio system and have stopped chasing gear.
@@Reyfox1 My cost numbers were a percentage of income for a base grade clerk in the Australian public circus. In 1972 my salary was slightly more than ~$AU4,000 p.a. A base grade clerk's salary in 2013 was $AU45,263 an order of magnitude increase. I used today's exchange rate to put those numbers into US dollars.
I did not spend more on my current system. I spent _much_ less when inflation is taken into account.
My current speakers were a kit rather than assembled from scratch, saving me several hundred dollars. High quality drivers don't come cheap. Yes, they sound much better than what I had in 1972. Technology has improved enormously as well as prices falling.
I chose $200,000 for the cost of a high end amplifier because that's what you will pay for a high end amplifier. I don't set prices; the manufacturers do. There's lots of gear that's priced above what I'm willing to pay, but that worries me not one iota. I just cut my suit according to the cloth. And I very much enjoy what I can afford.
As to where all the audiophiles have gone, I suspect we have always been few and far between. I know lots of people but few have been _passionate_ about recorded music.
Hi-Fi Audio has gotten substantially better since the “Golden Age.” Whoever asked this question is just nostalgic about the past... yes, the point of diminishing returns is real, and I do believe that a lot of products are overpriced. However, there are tons of great products out there that are affordable and lots of the higher priced items are definitely worth the price you’d pay for. Not to mention, you could get a high end audio system for much cheaper than you could have back then (buying used or new equipment).
What is high end audio? How do you define high end? Is it dictated by price, aesthetics and build quality, resolving power? Or, just a label slapped on by the manufacturer or retailer to justify higher or inflated pricing. Who makes the decision that a particular component should be classed as high end and what qualifications do they have for making that decision? Fred spent £1800 on his complete system. He thinks that Bob has a high end system because he spent £18000! Jack spent over £250000 on his system and says it is definitely high end, but Bob is convinced his £18000 system sounds better and out performs Jack’s system.who is right? Why does hifi have to be catigorised into labels? If you like a particular component, it performs the way you like and is with in your budget, then buy it, take no notice of what label someone else attaches to it. I’m not criticising Paul, he described Onkyo components as mass produced and not high end, yet he classed the PS Audio Sprout as high end. The Sprout is mass produced in China! Absolutely nothing wrong with that. I suspect he did that to minimise costs and produce a more affordable product aimed at a less eelitist consumer. The speakers in my system were conceived and designed here in Britain, but built in China. They are of premium build quality and would have cost thousands more to build in the UK! Are they high end? Well, the What Hifi mag described them as such, as do a couple of other publications. The manufacturer describes them as mid range flag ships. I don’t give a fig what label people choose to slap on them, I bought them because to me they were the best at reproducing music the way I like to hear it, within my budget.
Bam! Betty gives it both barrels!
I take your points, Paul, but there's change for the better and there's change for change's sake. It does seem that it's much easier for newer manufacturers to just make equipment play louder than to go through all the hassle of ironing out sonic coloration in the circuitry and drivers. Then they can stick it in a fancy box and call it high-end.
Of course, back in the days when every town had audio dealers on the high street, it was a lot easier to listen to gear and hear for yourself what sounded good or bad. I applaud PS Audio for offering customers a home trial, but even then it's only comparing the new item with an existing one, rather than auditioning a range of equipment. Ultimately, I suspect we're now in a place where many people's definition of great sound quality is "I paid X thousand for this, therefore it must be good."
I don’t know if I can agree with you on manufacturers not ironing out the circuitry. It is very easy to simulate circuitry on computers these days. In a matter of minutes you can have a parametric study with thousands of components thrown in the mix. Simulations give your experiments a pointed direction. Our grandfathers’ generation never had that luxury. They had to go through a painstaking process of experimentation. And more often than not it was the spidey-sense of the chief engineer that mattered. Otherwise nothing of consequence would have ever come out of any experimental lab. That is the reason we know some of these audio greats by their names. Today, we rely less on individual genius and more on collaboration and computation. Believe me when I say that the circuitry you get today is well tested, and more, if you know where to look for it.
Demand is small and shrinking for high-end audio. More people experience high fidelity in their cars these days than people did in their homes 40 years ago. Fewer feel that they need a home system, especially when it would have to compete with the 60" TV experience that folks vastly prefer to serious listening. You can listen to music while you jog and exercise too...lessening the need to seriously listen to it later. No one has enough time, and true high-end hi-fi takes time to experience. In sum, music is now everywhere at reasonable to very good fidelity for everyone. There is far less need to have a dedicated high-end audio system, and less free time than ever to seriously listen. High-end audio will likely never totally disappear, but it will never be a huge industry. The days of the local hi-fi showroom are all but gone. Despite the internet, there will be high-end clothing, furniture, jewelry and other stores...but very very few high-end audio stores.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
~Arthur C. Clarke
BRING ON THE *MAGIC* !!! 😎👍🏻
Nothing recedes like progress ~e. e. cummings
the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factory) factor is to low compared to a large tv sreen and Fengshui
What happened to high audio? It got out of hand. So many can be charged of “the sum of the parts don’t add up”...
People were up in arms when they passed laws against drinking and driving, imagine that.
What does the catalytic converters have to do with reproducing real life like sound?! That was a good change,
What’s so polluting about a pair of ML-2?
The problem has always been laziness or lack of interest on peoples behalf, everyone just wanting the fastest and easiest way around, nobody wants the hassle of researching and learning about the hobby. Prices have pretty much stayed the same, it's just that now we have all this luxury gear that didn't exist before. There are many companies at the moment that offer you components that sound as good as others worth 3-5-10 times more.. Leave the uber expensive stuff to the people that can afford it knowing that you can destroy their systems for a tenth of the price! Easy!
Wow amazing ur the best Paul.
@My Name yes i do know people have no contentment.
I agree with this question 100% For example, since the Sennheiser HD 540 Ref 1 I haven't heard a good headphone from them. Very sad - super clean un-natural and super over priced ):