"Against Calvinism" with Dr. Roger Olson
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- Опубліковано 5 сер 2024
- Dr. Leighton Flowers, Director of Evangelism and Apologetics for Texas Baptists, interview Dr. Roger Olson, Professor of Theology; Holder of the Foy Valentine Professor of Christian Theology and Ethics at Truett Seminary, about his book "Against Calvinism." They also discuss a few of their nuanced differences regarding the doctrine of Prevenient Grace within Arminianism and Traditional Southern Baptists (Provisionists).
To learn more about Dr. Olson: www.baylor.edu/truett/index.p...
To read Dr. David Allen's article referenced in this program: soteriology101.com/2018/10/08...
To read Dr. Flowers article critiquing Dr. Olson's view of Prevenient Grace: soteriology101.com/2018/12/12...
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All i had to do was watch the full presentation here on YT of Dave Hunts what love is this,and i was out of TULIP.Period.
Dave Hunt wrote an excellent refutation against Calvinism..
I myself am arminian and I believe that Dave Hunt albeit he wasn't arminian he helped me and then Roger e Olson and Jerry Walls both helped me steer me towards arminian theology..
As a young man, I overheard two men talking about biblical things so I introduced myself. They told me they were planning to picket the Billy Graham crusade. I asked them why in the world would they want to do that. They told me Billy Graham was a false teacher. He taught that Jesus died for everyone. That was my first ever experience meeting Calvinists. As you might guess I assumed they were the Antichrist.
My second encounter was a young man who told me he was going to hell because he was not one of the elect. I asked him how he came to such a ridiculous conclusion and he explained it was his understanding of Calvinism.
Then my daughter went off to Trinity College which is right here in town. The boys in the school love to talk theology. The head theology professor there at the school was Calvinist. This is the first time I heard about the TULIP. I've been a Christian since childhood and had even been ordained for many years in a Trinitarian, Pentecostal denomination. I began to search the scriptures for verses I called “Calvin crushers”. Most folks in The Assembly of God, Church of God, Foursquare etc are Arminian but have no idea they are. I always thought we were like Baptists in high gear! lol. Many of us have never heard anything about John Calvin or have read up on church history. I am now devouring everything I can find on the subject. BTW, Did you know Justin Martyr wrote a whole chapter on free will in his dialogue with Trypho?
I enjoy your videos very much. Thank you for what you do. The peace of Christ be with you,.
Enjoyed your comment. Besides the obvious differences between Calvinism and Catholicism, the Catholic view is 1. Free Will is reality even though it may appear, as many atheists claim, an illusion. 2. Unlike Luther and Calvin, after the Fall man remains inclined towards the Good vice inclined towards Evil--Catholicism rejects Total Depravity.
On my journey through a few denominations to the Catholic Church, I began to notice that many protestants accept Calvin's theology not because they believe it but because it is exactly opposite of the "whore of Babylon" to use the be words of a few prominent Calvinist preachers.
Anyway, thanks for your post. Leighton is doing great work on his channel...
@ 37:44 Roger Olson says, “A loving relationship has to be chosen and free and it can’t be imposed or controlled or else it’s not really love and it’s not really a relationship it’s a condition.”
I FULLY AGREE with this as well.
God longs for a relationship with His creation but we’d rather just be robots than have a real deep meaningful relationship with the creator of the universe.
He’s offered it to us in His Son.
He’s offered us this REAL meaningful relationship through faith in Christ.
Yet some people just can’t accept that our Creator could possibly love us like this.
They think it downplays God.
When will we they wake up and realize THAT’S WHAT HE WANTS!
He wants a real relationship!
He’s saying, “it’s OK!”
He’s saying, “just TRUST ME!”
He’s saying, “this is how I ordained it to be!”
He’s saying, “I’m most glorified when the pinnacle of my creation seeks my face WILLINGLY!”
Just accept it!
IT BRINGS ME THE MOST PLEASURE!
It’s OK you’re not taking away from my glory!
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When meditating on the pleas of God in the bible do they not see His heart?
Do they not see His longing?
Do they not see His arm stretched out in a GENUINE OFFER to all to believe freely?
**He loves His creation soo much that He wants it to be a FREE RESPONSE to His gracious offer.
**Can we truly grasp the depth of that kind of love?
Just as a husband and wife represent Christ and the church.
Could you ever say honestly you could love a robot?
Or could you honestly say that if you MADE your wife love you that it would feel real and meaningful?
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LOVE IS THE SUPREME ETHIC
1 CORINTHIANS 13:13
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the GREATEST OF THESE IS CHARITY.
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MATTHEW 22:36-40
36 Master, which is the GREAT COMMANDMENT in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt LOVE the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang ALL the law and the prophets.
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The ultimate ethic in life is LOVE.
This is the supreme ethic.
There is no ethic more supreme than love.
And necessary to love is the component of the will.
You cannot have love without the
freedom to not love.
THE FREEDOM OF THE WILL IS INDISPENSABLE TO LOVE.
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The greatest possible gift God could give us is the freedom of the will in order that we could TRULY LOVE HIM
If we did not have the freedom of the will then we could NOT truly love.
We could have CONFORMITY and COMPLIANCE and COERCION but we couldn’t truly have genuine love.
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**...So with this greatest gift comes also the greatest possibility of calamity.**
With this freedom comes the possibility of rejection and the possibility of evil.
...Yet we were WORTH this possibility!
FREEDOM MAKES LOVE POSSIBLE.
**He loves His creation soo much that He wants it to be a FREE RESPONSE to His gracious offer.
**Can you truly grasp the depth of that kind of love?
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...God in His sovereignty CHOSE to give man freewill to respond and come to Him that they might be saved because without freewill true, genuine love is NOT POSSIBLE.
It’s called COERCION NOT LOVE.
You could say that God took a “risk” in giving us freewill in that yes, He would be rejected my some.
Yet YOU WERE WORTH THE RISK!
That’s the depth of His love for us!
It’s deeper than the oceans.
Oh that we would be able to comprehend what is the height, the depth and the width of God’s love for us!
Do we really comprehend it?
God choosing some to salvation while passing over others NOT is a love that’s not very deep.
Same thoughts and arguments used by me. But you gave me more references
longest comment ever.
Beautiful brother, I was a 20 point calvinist and now I believe it just like you preach it. That is the true sovereing God, the one that CHOSE to create a free creature in order to be loved FREELY!!!... That is TRUE LOVE.😀😇
@@DimensiondelosSecretos Amen God bless you 🙏🙏
Olsen makes an excellent point on "reason." How then, can Calvinism be the deeper or more intellectual approach to soteriology? To me it borders on gnosticism.
0000090009000000
I’d like to give a shout out to Roger Olsen! Although I think Leighton is more correct, I appreciate Roger putting so much info available online. It was his writings which first gave me clarity on where Calvinism was so wrong. 👍👍
Nor Cal Theologians past tense.
@@kentrow7010 Rather than 2 conditions; consider "repentant faith". Somehow it seems that repentance (turning from self/sin to Christ) is an element within saving faith. Scripture seems to consistently affirm simply 1 activator of salvation: faith (Paul), or belief (John).
@@mercibeaucoup2639 While I agree with every single one of your comments, there is thing on the computer and keyboard known as LOWER CASE :P
@@rohandanielisaac8107 Greetings my friend. Thank you for agreeing with my Christian messages. It should rather be sentence case letters. Not lower case. All caps is also incorrect. Lowercase letters on names make people look inferior especially the name of my God. English Grammar tells us we should capitalize The first letter of a sentence, The letter I, People and place names, Dates and Holidays, Professional and Family titles, Groups and Organizations etc. Thank You and my Lord God bless you. Jean Del Bosque Bacci.
thank you for having Dr. Olson on your program. I read his book and he very clearly spells out his arguments against calvinism. It is a thorny issue which has sown confusion when introduced to evangelicals who were not brought up to believe it. Unfortunately, division in the body of Christ often ensues when it is pushed. It definitely is a different view of God's character, which is the bottom line, as Dr. Olson points out.
Great guest to bring on. His books was great for this topic. Thanks for discussing differences as well as areas of agreement.
@ 28:13 and also near the end of the discussion around 1:04:24 they discuss the character of God and what glorifies Him.
God’s MERCY is one of His best attributes that He actually loves to showcase and longs to show off.
We see this with the story of Moses when God CHOSE to showcase His GLORY to Moses.
How did GOD CHOOSE to showcase His GLORY?
Why can’t we just let GOD tell us about His character instead of trying to tell Him what we THINK it should be?!
What attributes did GOD HIMSELF CHOOSE TO REVEAL and PROCLAIM to Moses when He stood with him in the cloud on the top of the mountain?
God HIMSELF proclaimed His own name by showcasing His MERCY, His GRACE and His PATIENCE:
EXODUS 34:5,6
5 And THE LORD DESCENDED IN THE CLOUD, and stood with him there, and PROCLAIMED THE NAME OF THE LORD.
6 And the Lord passed by before him, and PROCLAIMED, THE LORD, THE LORD GOD, MERCIFUL AND GRACIOUS, LONGSUFFERING, AND ABUNDANT IN GOODNESS AND TRUTH
**Q: Did God choose to showcase His MERCY or His Justice as part of His glory?
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Showing mercy actually EXALTS God which is why He patiently waits to extend it:
ISAIAH 30:18
18 Therefore the Lord WAITS TO BE GRACIOUS to you, and therefore he EXALTS HIMSELF to SHOW MERCY to you. For the Lord is a God of justice; blessed are all those who wait for him.
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...According to Jonah 4:2 Jonah knew God was merciful and would rather show His mercy and relent from harm so then why reformers know this?
JONAH 4:2
2 And he prayed to the Lord and said, “O Lord, is not this what I said when I was yet in my country? That is why I made haste to flee to Tarshish; FOR I KNEW THAT YOU ARE A GRACIOUS GOD AND MERCIFUL, SLOW TO ANGER AND ABOUNDING IN STEADFAST LOVE, AND RELENTING FROM DISASTER.
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... According to Psalm 86:5 God is ready to forgive and plenteous in mercy to ALL that call upon Him:
PSALM 86:5
5 For thou, Lord, art good, and READY TO FORGIVE; and PLENTEOUS IN MERCY UNTO ALL THEM THAT CALL UPON THEE.
**Do reformers believe as the Psalmist believes or do they disagree and think this only applies to a select few?
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...According to Proverbs 28:13 WHOSO confesses and forsakes his sins shall have mercy:
PROVERBS 28:13
13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but WHOSO CONFESSETH AND FORSAKETH THEM SHALL HAVE MERCY.
**Do reformers truly believe this or do they disagree with this proverb and think it only applies to a select few?
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...According to James 2:13 it’s quite clear that MERCY is what triumphs and brings God the most glory:
JAMES 2:13
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and MERCY REJOICETH AGAINST JUDGMENT.
EXCELLENT POINT! Showing mercy is more glorious than showing wrath or justice!
I had a crisis of faith when I was first exposed to Calvinism in college. I wasn't at all disturbed that God predestined me, I was horrified that he made people for hell for his own glory, which is unbiblical. What the heck did I do to deserve his grace apart from being a sinner as apposed to the guy next to me that didn't make it in the book of life? I had to come back to the understanding that God is Good and is not a Monster. It came to me by reciting out loud Jesus loves me like in Galatians 2:20-22.. That was the sabot round from the holy spirit to bring me salem and end the crisis.
I looked up Ruby Sparks out of curiosity. There isn't a love potion involved. It is actually about an admired writer who has hit a wall with his next book. He tries a new approach by using an old manual typewriter. He finds that his new character that he creates on the typewriter has come to life and he is controlling every aspect of her life via his story, unbeknownst to her. It turns out to be a better analogy for this topic than a love potion. The best part? The writer's name is Calvin.
Excellent and very informative conversation.
Is it true that Calvinism is a modern system with Armenian theology dating the furthest back? Or is it the other way around? Also, any references? Thanks!
St. Augustine sort of first made some Calvinist teachings popular, which was long before John Calvin, but for the majority part, the early church father's teachings lined up with a non Calvinist approach.
Calvinism is older, yes. Arminianism was a response to Calvinism from within the Reformed movement, to correct it and bring in a more Biblical understanding.
So it is accurate to say they are historically connected, and aside from soteriology actually share a lot of beliefs, but the soteriological differences are very significant.
@@EssenceofPureFlavor incorrect. The points of the TULIP was a response to the Arminian views. Council of Dort did this. Easy mistake
@@richardthenryvideos Calvinism itself isn't the TULIP. I'm not incorrect. It's just a short Google search to see that John Calvin preceded Jacob Arminius by several decades.
@ Aaron Pilkey
Consider this from Psalm 115 ~
"Not to us, Lord, not to us, but to your name give glory *because of your faithful love*, because of your truth."
Psalm 115:1 CSB
Irenic Pelagian amen thanks for sharing that’s another great verse that showcases God’s glory by highlighting His MERCY and love.
(Sidenote it says “mercy” in KJV).
Great example that goes along with Exodus 34:6 telling us exactly what glorifies God and it’s His mercy over His sending people to hell.
Dr. Leighton-- good job holding to truth, not compromising to be "tactical". Common ground with Calvinists should only be sought out under and based upon TRUTH
Finally!!!
Olson makes the same mistake so many others do in this debate: separate Soteriology from Theology; separate Soteriology from Pneumatology; separate Soteriology from Christology. The same God, the same Christ, the same Holy Spirit you describe in your soteriology MUST BE THE SAME God the Father, Christ the Son, and Holy Spirit present in your doctrines on the nature of God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. How God saves in Christ through the Holy Spirit is Who God Is, and there is a world of difference between a Calvinist god and the God revealed in Scripture.
Amen
I don't understand why there aren't more people saying this? I've only just recently learned what calvinism is (after having been a Christian for about 15 years now) and I honestly don't understand how anyone who has read the Bible, let alone studied it regularly, could fall in line with what calvinism teaches.
It scares me, and makes me wonder if there are a lot more deceived people out there than I thought. Hopefully most calvinists don't actually know what calvinism teaches.
@@christian_gamer_guy6447 Listen to the case made by Calvinist theologians and you’ll understand. You’ll never get an accurate view from these guys who hate it and misrepresent it constantly.
@@Sting79 Are you trying to say that Calvinism is true? It's obviously not; that was my point.
In my journey, I've listened to lots of preaching and teaching over the years. I started listening to some Calvinists (John MacArthur, R.C. Sproul, Matt Chandler) and increasingly found them twisting the text or assuming something that was not IN the text, and I wondered to myself "What is their problem? Why are they saying this?" And THEN I dove into what Calvinism is. It's sickening that there are so many people out there that think Calvinism is biblical Christianity.... If you know your bible at all it should be obvious for SO MANY REASONS that Calvinism is *not* true in the slightest. It doesn't work with scripture or reality. It twists scripture and teaches of different god. It should be condemned by every Christian out there as false teaching.
@@christian_gamer_guy6447 Yes I’m saying it’s true. For 30 years a believed I chose God, but then the Holy Spirit opened my eyes studying through Romans. God choosing is in scripture from Genesis to Revelation. He chose to create the universe and man in it, chose Abraham, Moses, the nation of Israel, all the judges and prophets, His disciples, and then all the Father gives to the Son. It’s all there and has been for centuries. Modern free will interpretation is the glaring aberration, not the doctrines of grace.
@@Sting79 "God choosing is in scripture from Genesis to Revelation."
Sure, God chooses many things, and He chooses many people for different things throughout history. But, He never elects someone to be saved. That is not in the bible. In Ephesians 1, we see that those who are in Christ, the faithful in Christ Jesus, are predestined to be made holy and blameless. And you are marked in Christ when you believe the truth of the gospel, as Ephesians 1:13 says.
"and then all the Father gives to the Son."
You misunderstand John. In John 6:40 you see that the Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and Christ will raise them up at the last day. So, it would seem that the Father gives to the Son those who look TO the son and believe in Him. Also, we see in John 12:32 that God is drawing all men to Himself.
"Modern free will interpretation is the glaring aberration, not the doctrines of grace."
Without actual free will, there is no responsibility. If we are not able to want or do other than sin, and God is determining/ordaining/decreeing our sin, it's not our sin. We would be his instrument to cause whatever evil he was trying to cause, but it wouldn't be us that would be morally responsible in that situation, and that would not be the God that we see in the Bible that does not even tempt man to sin. God does not cause sin, or disobedience against Himself. That's utter nonsense.
If I get it right, as for the non-believers, the work of the Holy Spirit is to 'convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, '
as in John 16:8-11, in order to convict people of how much they need God.
And then once someone got convicted and come to Christ, accepted and believe in Christ, the work of the Holy Spirit is to regenerate them, help them to be "born again". Is it a good thing to look at the whole thing like that? or anything that needs to change in my thinking?
So I’m almost about to adopt Arminianism as my theological camp but I still need to read more about prevenient grace. From my understanding, Arminius himself plus others thought the prevenient grace came when people heard the gospel (similar ish to leighton?), others like Wesley thought that the prevenient grace was universal at the moment of Jesus death/resurrection. I personally follow the latter because God can bring people to faith without someone hearing the gospel. I think what’s important is the WHAT (God reaches out to you first) not the HOW (ok so when does this happen, how, etc?)
It's not pre-faith regeneration, it's pre-faith eye salve application. The eyes of the unbelievers are given insight to the state of sin the person is in. Just as a sliver of light sheds a bit of light into a darkened room so does the Spirit pierce the darkened mind that even a bit of light may lead the unbeliever to search for more.
👏💯👏💯
Well said.
Good explanation. I personally don’t care for the term pre-faith regeneration. I would call it pre-faith illumination.
Wow, " The gospel is the power",, that just set my mind right. Not that it carries or transfers, but that it is the power... The simplicity of the mechanism then would be it's greatest stumbling block.
Praise God! :)
It is the power of God to all who believe, that is what scripture teaches. The gospel does not have the power to convert all sinners, but on the contrary it gives power to all those who believe, I.e. the elect. The gospel has no good news and nothing to offer to the unbeliever. The unbeliever is called to believe and receive the good news, but we do not announce any good news to unbelievers unconditionally, they must embrace Christ and the good news (the forgiveness of sins and eternal life) in order for the gospel to become good news for them.
That is heresy. You have to have grace to understand. Yikes.
@@shopson6991 Powers at different stages are not at all found in scripture. They seem to say " I was given a power". They call it herecy to simply say the incarnation, or turning the world's light on,, not only for the world,, but for each human now born, the good news preached to evil and moral by disciples filled with the Spirit, the Church, the kingdom etc,. All these are herecy to call 'the gospel," . I see no grounds to turn from grace to an awakening and call that awakening grace.
To those who will accept it via belief.
The gospel message is foolishness to the unbelieving world (1 Cor. 18). In order to believe, man's heart must be turned away from its evil inclinations (Gen. 8:21) and unto the righteousness of Christ.
The Holy Spirit must intervene, in some capacity, and grant life to the sinner (Eph. 2:5 & Col. 2:13).
What a GREAT discussion! This is a keeper; especially the aspects regarding prevenient grace or the gospel being not merely the carrier of God's saving grace but the actual grace itself!
2 issues came up in the last 5 minutes worthy of pushing back:
1. 1:07 onward regarding the God of Calvinism being a "monstrous God"... I think that from the Calvinist perspective this isn't fair for 2 reasons. A, Calvinists believe they are following Pauline theology. For the sake of discussion; if they are right, notice the Apostle Paul's reactions to both this gospel (of only limited atonement of a predetermined minority elect to salvation) and to the character of God who willed it this way. Paul's doxologies proclaim His glory, His infinite wisdom, His grace, His worthiness of praise, etc. Let's be clear (and fair): whatever Paul is teaching completely enamors him about God! So, if Calvinism is correct, Paul (who taught it) surely didn't conclude that God is a monster! So, just like the false accusation of "semi-pelagianism" toward Arminians needs to stop; this accusation of Calvin's "monstrous" God isn't charitable or a necessary conclusion.
B. As the Old Testament unfolds and progresses, the reader is brought into the perspective of the Israelites (not of an objective 3rd party like an OT United Nations). God is seen through their lens as His special people among pagans who are without knowledge of God and without the Covenant. Reading the historical events and the Psalms' reflections on those events confirms the insider viewpoint. i.e. Never do Moses (regarding the devastation of Egyptian firstborns), Joshua (regarding Canaanite idolaters), David (regarding his political opponents), or later prophets (regarding Sodom, Tyre, Assyria, or Babylonia - to name just a few) consider God a "monster" for destroying other nations. God willed that Israel was His special possession. Calvinists see continuity between the OT and NT on this (i.e. Covenant Theology). They would see God continuing in the NT expression of the Church as His covenant people (chosen by Him) with Israel being the OT expression of His Covenant People (chosen by Him), and outsiders are simply largely devalued. No one reading the OT weeps when Goliath was defeated or critiques God for not having chosen the Philistines, right?
2. It seems like the emotion driving some Arminians to consider the Calvinist God to be a monster are the result of a prior commitment to the nature of "hell" as being some form of eternal (unending) torture (pain, gnashing, etc.). If the experience of gehenna is understood differently (many options here), then the monster accusations have opportunity to recede substantially. This presumption of a Dante-version of "hell" should be admitted when the accusations of a monster God are made. (This, by the way, is ALWAYS what skeptics and atheists base their monster views of God on).
@55:13 I completely disagree that I should lie and say I believe in something that I don't for the purpose of teaming up against calvinists.
I agree. I wish Leighton would walk through the Canons of Orange and tell us what he disagrees with like he did with portions of the Westminster Confession a while back.
Yeah, it's kinda disgusting to even suggest that we just allow them to bully us into a corner and proclaim something false.
Thanx, Gentlemen 🌹🌹🌹
Wow, that was incrediable and eye opening for me.
Min 21:31 R.C. Sproul??
A person is responsible for their own response to the offer of eternal life. He teaches some muddy form of regeneration. Good job, Dr. Flowers on calling him out on that! @45:00
It's the same Regeneration Calvinists teach, minus the 'irresistible' part. Total Depravity demands it, but it's not Biblical.
Son of the Allfather : Yes, and I am convinced that since they are “reformed” Catholicism, their regeneration doctrine is really consistent with infant baptism.
Leighton- How did prevenient grace work in the OT times? All are save by faith thru grace, correct? If total depravity was true in OT times, how could they be saved unless they were regenerated per RT, and scripture does not support that in the OT.
Error: grace proceeds faith ( calvin)
Scripture: grace follows faith. True, and not a calvinist belief.
You’re mistaking what actually happened to people in the OT when they died.
The covenant on Sinai was not about salvation. Salvation was never offered there, or to anyone. The Jews accepted the responsibility to be God’s chosen nation (yes, that really happened), and they trusted (correctly) that by obeying the law of God and being His people, God would eventually send a way for them to be saved and fulfill the promise to Abraham. Well, they really didn’t obey that well, but God was merciful and sent Jesus anyways.
When Jesus died, Peter says that Jesus went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison. Much has been made of what exactly this means. Many believe that Jesus went to the land of the dead (Sheol/Hades) and preached to all those who came before His earthly ministry. Then those who accepted Him were saved, and those who rejected Him were left to Satan. This is in the Apostles Creed and Nicene Creed.
For the most part I think this is just an interesting talk between two men who pretty much agree but when it comes to the Gospel being sufficient on its own I disagree with Flowers. I definitely think we need prevenient grace including the help of the Holy Spirit to bring us alive to what the gospel tells us. The spirit is the means by which God inspires prophets and disciples to write and we need Him to help us interpret or understand it clearly. Only when He (the Spirit) illuminates the word of the gospel can we really understand it and accept the free gift that God offers.
@@Soteriology101 If you ask a Muslim they would say yes. They always say that people who do not believe in their faith cannot understand the Quran. They often seem very Calvinist - even though they act differently in the end they come out with 'It is written' meaning that all happens as God makes it happen. But I don't believe they do understand even the Quran often there are verses like sura 19:33 which prophesy clearly Jesus' death and resurrection but still they let their teachers argue away what is clear in their own supposedly holy book. I think we certainly need the Holy Spirit to change the written word into the rhema for us. I think of myself as an Arminian - so like Arminius I agree with much of Calvin's thinking - I do think that all of our nature has been affected by the fall and that therefore we needs God to give us prevenient grace to draw us toward faith and saving grace. I do accept that we are fallen and would not consider God if He were not drawing us to Him.
@Leighton Flowers , i wnat to thank you for all the work you do for inviting the people you do to debate these issues and clarify their thoughts. I thank you for taking the time to write to me - to make me think about my own beliefs too. God bless you and your ministry.
I was at Louie Giglio's first Passion conference at Austin Texas. I remember everyone was amazed with John Piper at the conference. Back then I didn't even know Calvinism. I just remember John Piper talking about the Westminister Catechism of the chief end of man. I also remember that the preaching at the conference was not focused on the Bible. Louie I remember claimed to have visions that God was moving thru China in a big way.
@ 33:30 - Roger Olson speaks of Paul Helm saying, “he really does believe in reason.”
...I FULLY AGREE and so does the Lord God Himself!:
ISAIAH 1:18
18 COME NOW, AND LET US REASON TOGETHER, SAITH THE LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
**This is one of my favourite verses that flies in the face of Calvinism.
How can they argue with God HIMSELF???
Is God then just wanting to reason with Himself if they believe mankind is incapable of reasoning with God or if God has predetermined their reasoning for them???
That makes a mockery of God’s GENUINE APPEAL to reason with us!
Do you have more verses which make this same point?
Praveen Hiwale ...Yes there are examples in scripture of men reasoning with the Lord; BUT we still must remember we must submit to GOD’S TERMS of reasoning which are terms of a broken and contrite heart and terms of REPENTANCE and terms of HUMILITY and terms of SURRENDER and terms of crying out for MERCY.
Here’s 3 such passages:
...According to Genesis 18:22-33
Abraham reasoned with the Lord in beseeching Him not to destroy the the righteous with the wicked
(**sidenote there ARE some righteous just not enough to save them for ALL have fallen short):
GENESIS 18:22-33
22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: BUT ABRAHAM STOOD YET BEFORE THE LORD.
23 AND ABRAHAM DREW NEAR, AND SAID, WILT THOU ALSO DESTROY THE RIGHTEOUS WITH THE WICKED?
24 PERADVENTURE there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 THAT BE FAR FROM THEE TO DO AFTER THIS MANNER, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: SHALL NOT THE JUDGE OF ALL THE EARTH DO RIGHT?
26 AND THE LORD SAID, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, THEN I WILL SPARE ALL THE PLACE FOR THEIR SAKES.
27 AND ABRAHAM ANSWERED AND SAID, BEHOLD NOW, I HAVE TAKEN UPON ME TO SPEAK UNTO THE LORD, WHICH AM BUT DUST AND ASHES:
28 PERADVENTURE there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? AND HE SAID, IF I FIND THERE FORTY AND FIVE, I WILL NOT DESTROY IT.
29 AND HE SPAKE UNTO HIM YET AGAIN, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. AND HE SAID, I WILL NOT DO IT FOR FORTY’S SAKE.
30 AND HE SAID UNTO HIM, OH LET NOT THE LORD BE ANGRY, AND I WILL SPEAK: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. AND HE SAID, I WILL NOT DO IT, IF I FIND THIRTY THERE.
31 And he said, BEHOLD NOW, I HAVE TAKEN UPON ME TO SPEAK UNTO THE LORD: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. AND HE SAID, I WILL NOT DESTROY IT FOR TWENTY’S SAKE.
32 AND HE SAID, OH LET NOT THE LORD BE ANGRY, AND I WILL SPEAK YET BUT THIS ONCE: Peradventure ten shall be found there. AND HE SAID, I WILL NOT DESTROY IT FOR TEN’S SAKE.
33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
************************************
...According to Genesis 32:9-14 Moses reasoned with God by beseeching Him to have mercy on the Israelites by turning from His wrath and not destroying them and the Lord listened to his cry and relented:
GENESIS 32:9-14
9 AND THE LORD SAID UNTO MOSES, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
10 NOW THEREFORE LET ME ALONE, THAT MY WRATH MAY WAX HOT AGAINST THEM, AND THAT I MAY CONSUME THEM: and I will make of thee a great nation.
11 AND MOSES BESOUGHT THE LORD HIS GOD, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? TURN FROM THY FIERCE WRATH, AND REPENT OF THIS EVIL AGAINST THY PEOPLE.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14 AND THE LORD REPENTED OF THE EVIL WHICH HE THOUGHT TO DO UNTO HIS PEOPLE.
************************************
... According to 2 Kings 20:1-7 Hezekiah prayed and reasoned with the Lord when he was sick unto death and the prophet Isaiah had told him the Lord has pronounced his death.
VS. 5 says that the Lord heard his prayer and would heal him and add 15 years to his life:
2 KINGS 20 1-7
1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, THUS SAITH THE LORD, SET THINE HOUSE IN ORDER; FOR THOU SHALT DIE, AND NOT LIVE.
2 Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the Lord, saying,
3 I BESEECH THEE, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.
4 And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying,
5 Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, THUS SAITH THE LORD, THE GOD OF DAVID THY FATHER, I HAVE HEARD THY PRAYER, I HAVE SEEN THY TEARS: BEHOLD, I WILL HEAL THEE: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the Lord.
6 And I WILL ADD UNTO THY DAYS FIFTEEN YEARS; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.
@@apilkey thanks ...but can we think of some situations where God expected people to reason? Like Jesus told Nicodemus ...in John 3:10 that you are the teacher of Israel and you don't understand these things? Or when Jesus expected people to reason when he said at the end of the parable and the letters of revelation....He who has ears let him hear! Of course we have to use reasoning and logic in most matter but I think Jesus hinted at using their reasoning to find out their spiritual condition and also to reason what God was revealing to them.
Haggai 1.and 2 .....consider your ways ...evaluate your life. .
Most letter of Paul are rhetorical. The episode of the Ethiopian Eunuch. He could not understand the scriptures. He read it but could not understand it and what did rhe Holy Spirit do? He sent Philip to minister the Eunuch and he was eventually saved. Of course God does the salvation but the need for it can be reasoned by men and understood when explained
Praveen Hiwale Yes I agree God reasons with us to show us our spiritual condition and our need for a saviour.
With Nicodemus it was to show him he must be born again and was not saved simply by keeping the law or because he was a Jew and of the elect nation of God.
He still needed to have FAITH.
Faith in Christ is God’s terms that He’s sovereignly decreed for being born again for having eternal life.
Faith is not negotiable and can’t be reasoned away to find an alternative.
God won’t budge on that no matter how much reasoning we do with Him.
The CONSEQUENCES and the JUDGMENTS however God is willing to reason with us and relent or turn from His wrath IF we again submit to HIS TERMS of repentance and cry out for mercy.
I think this is displayed perfectly in 2 Timothy 2:20,21 and Jeremiah 18:1-13
...No lump of clay can talk back to God, but it can purge himself, repent and cry out to God for mercy and God will make him into a vessel unto honour:
2 TIMOTHY 2:20,21
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 IF A MAN THEREFORE PURGE HIMSELF from these, HE SHALL BE A VESSEL UNTO HONOUR, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
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...Again according to Jeremiah 18:1-13 we see a marred vessel not talking back to God but REPENTING in humility, and then God taking it again in His hands and making it again unto something good WHILE IT’S STILL MOULDABLE.
IF THE NATION REPENTS then the Lord will relent from the destruction He decreed:
JEREMIAH 18:1-13
1The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: SO HE MADE IT AGAIN, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 IF THAT NATION, against whom I have pronounced, TURN FROM THEIR EVIL, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: RETURN YE NOW every one from his evil way, and MAKE YOUR WAYS AND YOUR DOINGS GOOD.
12 And THEY SAID, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.
13 THEREFORE thus saith the Lord; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing.
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As you mentioned in Haggai God reasons with us by getting us to CONSIDER OUR WAYS in a genuine effort to persuade us to repent and turn to Him in FAITH.
HAGGAI 1:5,7
5 Now therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts; CONSIDER YOUR WAYS.
7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; CONSIDER YOUR WAYS.
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We also see all throughout Deuteronomy the CONDITIONS where it’s “IF” you do “this”, THEN I will do “that.”
BUT, “IF” you do “that”, THEN I will do “this.”
DEUTERONOMY 30:19
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed MAY LIVE:
God reasons with us by setting before us life and death and pleading with us to CHOOSE LIFE.
How do we choose life?
By faith in Christ.
His terms that can’t be negotiated but He’s patient with us not willing that any should perish and so He works with us and reasons with us showing us our sin and our need for Him so we turn to Him in faith.
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If God predestined those who would believe in Him already then who is God being patient and waiting for?
HIMSELF?
Is God patiently waiting for HIMSELF to effectually save them?
God doesn’t glory in our destruction but in His MERCY which is why He PATIENTLY WAITS for us because He is also Just and Holy and knows that ultimately He has to execute judgment according to RIGHTEOUSNESS which is only found THROUGH Christ.
2 PETER 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, BUT IS PATIENT TOWARD YOU, NOT WISHING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, BUT THAT ALL SHOULD REACH REPENTANCE.
God waits patiently for us to turn to Him in repentance.
To CONSIDER OUR WAYS with the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil that the fall brought and to forsake our ways and live by humbly admitting that we can’t save ourselves and admit that to the One who can!
...According to Ezekiel 18:27-32 even the wicked man has the ability to turn from his wicked ways and it gives the reason why in verse 28 it’s BECAUSE he considered his ways:
EZEKIEL 18:27-32
27 Again, WHEN THE WICKED MAN TURNETH away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, HE SHALL SAVE HIS SOUL ALIVE.
28 BECAUSE HE CONSIDERETH, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, HE SHALL SURELY LIVE, he shall not die.
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. REPENT, and TURN YOURSELVES from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 CAST AWAY from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: FOR WHY WILL YE DIE, O HOUSE OF ISRAEL?
32 FOR I HAVE NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF HIM THAT DIETH, SAITH THE LORD GOD: WHEREFORE TURN YOURSELVES, AND LIVE YE.
**VS. 31,32 is a great example of the Lord reasoning with His creation and asking them l, “FOR WHY WILL YE DIE?”
He asks them this because He’s set before them life and death and they aren’t choosing life BY FAITH, by HIS TERMS.
Thanks so much for this guys.. Im still looking into this lately, guys in the parable of the parodical, it seem Jesus himself says in verse 7 that it is about a sinner who repents. He describes the repentance as nothing more than verse 17. """17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! "" The son came to himself, and said to himself, he was displeased with his state, and remembered the Fathers house somehow.. Does this make Jesus a Pelagian, seeing as he places only and all emphasis of an awakening of the son coming to himself.. Sometimes sinners see their state and are disgusted,. This is how Jesus describes a sinner repenting. Coming to himself and walking back to his fathers house, or returning to the Shepard of his soul. I do see we are born as belonging to God, then departing by chosen sin, all of us.. Is this not the meaning of the word "redeem" or buy back.. Anyway, I'm not afraid of Palagius any more, I've stopped looking under the bed at night.. Bless you guys..
I only wish it were longer.
Leighton, are you saying you are of Arminian persuasion?
He is a Traditionalist
You are a blessing mr. Flowers. Your love for Calvin worshiper is amazing;I am not as far along in my faith!because I can’t find it in me to be nice to blasphemers;and heretics.
Arminianism and Calvinism are both Calvinism neither one are Christian. Both are gnostic Hinduism.
"Love your enemies" Matthew 5:43-48. It's a lot easier said than done, but Christ commanded it. Romans 13:10 states that, "Love is the fulfillment of the Law". A way to help you love folks you may consider to be your enemies is to get to understand them on a more personal level. Many of my closest friends are compatibilist Calvinists, they are Christians, not heretics. I don't think they have really thought through their belief in Calvinistic doctrines very thoroughly. But they do have a correct understanding that Christ paid the price for salvation and grants it to those who believe in Him.
@@matthewdevine8275
Cant blasphemy against God and lead otherd to do likewise and remain a Christian or be a Christian unless you do as christ told us.
"Whosoever believes on christ in their heart and follows him shall be saved"
Calvinism teaches its following that they are saved not from what they do but only by what christ did;likewise that they are the election predestined before creation the foundation of the world!
Fist: no one can be saved unless they; not christ ;believe in christ;they think that christ did for them what he told us all to do. Heresy.
Second:the election and the elect; election/chosen of God,Jesus the elect;not anyone else;election is mentioned 4x in the new Testament;2×its talking about the Hebrew 12 tribes of Israel,2x its talking about the apostles!
Not all scripture is about you or to you all scripture is for you;for instruction;you where not told to make the ark of the covenant;no only Moses was.
Calvinism tries to steal the title only meant for jesus hence blasphemy;likewise the try to steal Israels Heritage;replacement theology is a heresy ;this isnt debateble, all fundamental denominations agree on this.
Calvinism was founded by john calvin a unrepentant unconfest murderer;he set up a preist to be killed by Genevas town fathers whom he controled ;promising safe passage to debate him;and hundreds of more murders by him;calvin was a Gnostic and foller of st. Austine a Catholic in the closet Gnostic;proof of calvin's satanism;and not being saved.
Onces saved always saved,a lie of calvin;in rev. Christ tells us that you can be blotted out of the lambs book of life;only the saved are written in this book.
Calvinism twist dictionary definitions to propagate their heresies; they invent words that aren't even in the dictionary , in order to replace;the real meaning of scripture in lui of their false dichotomy,likewise they are continually trying to retranslate; the translators that were experts in Greek ;arogant;and they use their pathetic Cemetery in Greek;to change the real context;scripture warns us not to add or subtract from scripture;they will be punished by the plagues in the Bible.
Calvinism Christian no they are not. Your calvanist friends are not Christian unless the believe on christ not Calvinism.
The tulip is heresy and a blasphemy.
Lastly calvin says that God is in control of everything you think or do;if your not one of the election;then even if you believe on christ youll never be saved ;likewise all the rapes /murder and evil god made it happen;and that he damns people for sin that he made them do;and that he died not for the sins of the world but only for calvanist;and so they are blasphemous;their doctines are calling God first evil;and a lier ;and deviceve;they contribute really works of Satan to God this is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which is the unpardonable sin. If they where ever saved they are now damned unless they turn from Calvinism and repent of their blasphemy.
@@robertcollins6240
Rather vitriolic diatribe. I don't think you understand the word "blasphemy" either.
The 12 Hebrew tribes are definitely NOT the elect.
That's why after talking about election in Romans 8, Paul has a heavy heart for the natural Israelites in Romans 9.
Because not all those who are of Israel ARE actually Israel.
@@p1xMU51c Paul has a heart for natural Israel all the way through Roman's, especially leading up to chapter 9. Faith, not works, not bloodline, but by faith alone.
Paul says not ALL isreal is true israel,only those who Believe and put thier faith in Christ.For thier is no other name under Heaven by which we must be saved,Yet we dont have to Know christ in order to be saved, Paul goes on to say God appoints the times and the places where ALL should live so that we might Seek and find Him,though HE is not far from any of us!! No man has any excuse as we All have the Light of conscience,and the Light of Creation all around us.if WE respond to God we will get the Light of Christ!!
55:00
I completely agree with that last statement. The problem is that unity based on error and getting along isn't bibical unity. It's like a coexist unity to not fight. Why would we embrace one of the gnostic prepositions Calvinists hold in order to find common ground?
That's the whole issue of the reformation and why they were wrong. Both arminianism and Calvinism agreed in this Gnostic idea of total inability based on original guilt but they just disagreed with how to deal with it. Calvinism went with the idea that they need this magical regenerating Grace and God makes those he's chosen believe that way. While Armenians were like no no no God gives prevenient Grace to people through the gospel and those who believed were elected to do so. It's basically the same belief system with a slight Nuance but the roots are the same.
I agree completely though it would be a lot more helpful if all non Calvinists, and Calvinists for they matter, were aligned but the problem is many of the systems that fall under non Calvinism are traditions of man just as much as Calvinism is. When you go back to the actual early church and look at the consistency from Jesus to Apostles to church you'll see it's one consistent message that doesn't agree with either Calvinism or arminianism. Though many read what they believe into all 3.
I think part of the problem is that we follow men and traditions rather than the Spirit of the Living God, that Jesus said would lead us into all Truth and unity in what is True and in love.
The gnostics brought in a form of divine determinism, limited atonement, and total inability based on inherited guilt from Adam. The early church taught against these heresies. If that's true, and it is I think the facts bear it out. We should be able to reason together in love and look at what's True, which the Spirit testifies to, and then all three be United in what's true rather than by these Traditions. A house divided can't stand. Dark days are coming and we need the unity Jesus prayed we'd have in John 17, which is only reached bibically by walking in step with the Spirit and maturing. Just a thought. Love y'all❤
Nathan Burgett amen soo true.
Unity is only unity when we’re united around TRUTH.
@@apilkey i think an often misunderstood verse used to support this type of unity is where Jesus says, "those who are not against us are for us."
I think they wrongly assume this means that they completely disagreed about who God is, how he works, and what he's done. However I don't see that in the text. What I see is a group of people who believe correctly and we're growing, but did not travel with the apostles. Because the point the apostles make wasn't that they were teaching something different but that they weren't traveling with them. So this verse is often used to support this type of false Unity when it actually, I think, supports true unity in what is true and that we don't have to all be gathered together to be one body. We're United by The Same Spirit who brings love and unity in truth whether we travel together or not.❤
It's definitely not teaching that two groups can have a completely different picture of who God is and what he's done and be in complete Unity by the spirit. Otherwise by that standard we can have unity with Rome and mormons. They both claim to believe in the same God. They just disagree about who he is, what he's done, and how he works. God is not the author of chaos and confusion but of Truth and love.
Nathan: I completely agree.
You nailed the source of the problem....following teachers, and intergenerational family teaching, rather than scripture.
Completely agree with you. Amen my friend. It's funny because both groups believe Jesus is the son of God, the redeemer, and that only through and by Him does anyone enter. The gospel doesn't change in either situation. None of us can know the root of the man.... only the fruit of the man, and therefore.... how we treat one another and how we espouse the gospel is altogether the same. Believe, repent, confess, be baptized for the remission of your sins and go walk with Him by the power of the Holy Spirit
Thank you both for this discussion. This was very helpful for me.
How is prevenient grace explained with the Old Testament saints, like Noah, and Abraham? How can the 'dead' communicate with God, like Adam and Eve when they were judged, Cain before and after he killed Able, Lot, Enoch, Moses all who were found or credited righteous in the sight of God?
God does Not arbitrarly save one person over another and Scripture bears that out!! it says No man has any excuse Not to believe in God as we ALL have the Light of Creation all around us and the Light of conscience within us.john 1 says Christ is the Light in all men.,we are made in HIs Image,so that why GOD commands ALL men Everywhere to Repent!! Thats why Jesus pleads with many to turn to Him.He is the GOD of all,both Jew and Gentile and is no respector of persons!! calvanism has ,many flaws.
Book of John
@William Toy the word...BELIEVE is repeated over 100 times....the only condition to salvation is to believe...rom 10:9-10
"Love is not a cog in the glory machine"; spot on!
Cog or clog?
Please explain, "freed will," vs free will.
To claim freed will implies there was a time when human will was not free. When was that? Before the fall? After the fall? After Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden?
Yes after the fall, humanity was in bondage to sin from that point onwards
Calvinism = huh?
Isn't there a verse that says God will be glorified in judgment?
When A Calvinist says you can't use reason with God I like to ask them then why are you doing it,, Because the minute you make that statement you have just used reason and applied it to God !!
When do they say that? At most, I've heard them point out that there are limits to human reason.
You are right Dr. Flowers. The gospel itself is the power of God unto salvation. The scripture is very clear. God's word has power. The power to save; the power to create; the power to be born again.
Provenient grace is not necessary. God's initiative to save mankind is all around us. In Him we live and move and have our being. He is not far from any one of us.
God's Word has power. True. Power from God who enlightens those who hear it, pretty much how the Dr. described it. That is how I see it.
@@bobbyadkins6983
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
It, the gospel, is the power. Gods word already spoken is the power. All by itself it has power. Power to save all who believe, or another way to say it is to mix it with faith.
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Saying that people go to hell because God wants them to go to hell is like saying people go to jail because the civil authorities want them to go there.
Does God know who is going to believe & who won't?
CS Lewis also had big problems with GOD decreeing sin and evil within mans total depravity-, if God’s moral judgement differs from ours so that our “black” may be His “white”, we can mean nothing by calling Him good; for to say “God is good,” while asserting that His goodness is wholly other than ours, is really only to say “God is we know not what”. And an utterly unknown quality in God cannot give us moral grounds for loving or obeying Him. If He is not (in our sense) “good” we shall obey, if at all, only through fear - and should be equally ready to obey an omnipotent Fiend. The doctrine of Total Depravity - when the consequence is drawn that, since we are totally depraved, our idea of good is worth simply nothing - may thus turn Christianity into a form of devil-worship.
Bob Free amen I agree.
@ 33:46 Roger Olson says, “we all admit that there are things about God that we cannot fully comprehend.”
This statement is true, however Reformers love to quote Romans 11:33 when they can’t answer their illogical fallacies based on the word of God.”
ROMANS 11:33
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
The judgements and ways of God that are past finding out are the ones He chooses to keep secret.
That which is revealed to us however is revealed specifically so we CAN know.
God has clearly revealed His word to us that we MAY DO IT.
We can’t claim mystery in God’s word where it’s been clearly revealed.
We can’t quote that verse as some sort of cop-out every time we face a scripture that disproves our doctrine and we can’t explain why so we claim mystery instead.
Some things remain a secret but His Word is not one of them because HE’S GIVEN IT TO US.
WE HAVE IT.
I can pick it up in my hands it’s not hidden from me it’s been REVEALED to me that I can study it.
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... According to Deuteronomy 29:29 the things that have been revealed belong to us as God has given them to us and NOT kept them secret or hidden:
DEUTERONOMY 29:29
29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: BUT THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE REVEALED BELONG UNTO US and to our children for ever, THAT WE MAY DO ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW.
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**God does not have a secret will CONTRARY to or in OPPOSITION to His revealed will.
Read that again and meditate on it.
THE SPOKEN REVEALED WILL OF GOD is the one that is the truth and what is right because it’s His WORD which He’s given us and so we CAN TRUST IT.
... According to Isaiah 45:19 God HASN’T spoken in secret that we should not know:
ISAIAH 45:19
19 I HAVE NOT SPOKEN IN SECRET, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I THE LORD SPEAK RIGHTEOUSNESS, I DECLARE THINGS THAT ARE RIGHT.
**There are indeed mysteries of God but His revealed word is not a mystery as He’s chosen to give it to us!
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...when reading John 6:40, 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 we need to apply Isaiah 45:19 and know that He’s NOT speaking in secret.
We also need to apply Deuteronomy 29:29 and know that this is His REVEALED WILL THAT WE MAY DO IT.
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This is God’s REVEALED will that we can trust and believe because He’s NOT spoken in secret:
JOHN 6:40
40 And THIS IS THE WILL OF HIM THAT SENT ME, THAT EVERY ONE WHICH SEETH THE SON, AND BELIEVETH ON HIM, MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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This is God’s REVEALED will that we can trust and believe because He’s NOT spoken in secret:
1 TIMOTHY 2:4
4 Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
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This is God’s REVEALED will that we can trust and believe because He’s NOT spoken in secret:
2 PETER 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that all should come to repentance.
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**If God has another secret will that acts CONTRARY to His REVEALED WILL then we could never trust anything He said and we could never believe anything in His word.
We know that God speaks truth and we know that He does not lie.
What if God says do not kill as part of His revealed word to us but secretly He wants us to kill???
We could apply this to everything!
What if God in the bible says He’s the Son of God but secretly He’s not???
**If you believe God’s revealed word is CONTRARY to what He keeps secret from us then you have absolutely no basis to trust anything in scripture because God could secretly be desiring something else!
The fact is God’s word HAS BEEN REVEALED to us so we CAN KNOW and as a result we will be held accountable and be without excuse.
We will be judged by every Word in the scriptures which is why it is not a mystery.
God won’t judge us for something that’s a mysterious secret will past finding out.
There are indeed mysterious secrets of God past finding out but His REVEALED WORD is not one of them.
That’s why He wants us to read and meditate on His word so He can in fact show us great and mighty things.
**IF WE CAN’T TRUST GOD’S WORD THEN IT CAN IN NO WAY BE OUR AUTHORITY because we would never really know what God was saying or if He was secretly saying the exact opposite.
**It’s the devil himself that doesn’t want us to know.
God on the other hand desires that we know everything He’s revealed to us.
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...God will not lie to us by revealing something to us that’s CONTRARY to what He desires:
NUMBERS 23:19
19 GOD IS NOT A MAN, THAT HE SHOULD LIE; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
"Arminians are barely Christians" = R. C. Sproul
"You're flattening it out" = James White
@@NorCaltheologians My post was simply to define who he was referring to. I wasn't condemning Calvinists any more than Leighton was. I do however consider it serious error with eternal consequences.
Amen
Leighton is flattening it out. Constantly.
Next guest: Austin Fisher? 🤷🏻♂️
Or maybe Randy White Ministries? or Andy Woods?
Strange how Calvinist Arminianism can seem... just a few subtle differences between Prevenient Grace and Irresistible Grace.
Why the need to "Free the will" in order for the person to choose yes or no, when it seems that the Bible already presumes people can choose freely?
I can’t believe it. I’m so disappointed in this discussion. It’s way too short!
My own view of the gospel is that it is a work of the Holy Spirit. A person can read the Bible and not come to saving relationship with God if they resist the Holy Spirit’s conviction as they read or hear.
Dr. Olsen made some remarks that really rattled Leighton. Leighton is left to himself to argue that his “traditionalist” view is not, in fact, semi-pelagian.
But scripture does say that God knows the end from the beginning, Isaiah 46 :10
But it doesn't say He deterministically causes the end from the beginning. This is confusing foreknowledge with causation
Romans 11:36
“For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen
Isaiah 46:9-10
“I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’”
Lamentations 3:37
“Who has spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has commanded it?”
@@TKK0812 But when did God get his foreknowledge? Before or after he created everything?
If I fire a gun and kill someone, but didn't know what a gun was and so had no foreknowledge of what was about to happen, am I less guilty or more guilty than if I fully knew what a gun was and had every expectation that by pulling the trigger I would knowingly kill someone?
Remember, God isn't just a passive bystander that happens to know the future, he created and set in motion the entirety of history.
@@oracleoftroy Asking when God "got" His foreknowledge and your gun analogy does not respond to my previous post.
I can perfectly foreknow my daughter will sin in her life before she is born. That doesn't mean I caused her to sin. I am perfectly comfortable living in the mystery of God's foreknowledge and decision to create and how that works with Him also giving us a measure of libertarian free choice. God never fully explains it, so we shouldn't try to over-philosophize it and pretend we can comprehend even a small measure of what was going on pre-creation. We need to stick to what the text says.
You've also setup a false dichotomy. It's not that either God is a passive bystander who happens to know the future or He deterministically chose all that would happen before creation.
I think you're also assuming that God spun the proverbial wheel of possible worlds in His mind and decided on one to create thereby determining all that would happen given His foreknowledge. As I said before, that is going way beyond the limits of human knowledge and also goes beyond the text. But, if we're speculating, I could just as easily say that because God is good and perfect, He would only have created that which is good and perfect. Therefor, He would not have created any other world than the one we exist in.
This is the best Representation I've ever heard of classical armenianism Absolutely an amazing broadcast I thank you so much
It's spelled arminian..
Brother Roger may have had discussions with Greg Horton in a brotherly way (and I applaud him for that), but that unfortunately was not my experience with him. In an article Roger wrote, he said that in Matthew 23:37 Jesus weeps over Jerusalem and says, “How I would have gathered you to myself, but you would not," which he went on to say, "completely contradicts Calvinism that says we have no free will." I pointed out that the verse was misquoted, and actually says, "How often would I have gathered your children together,' and how Jesus was specifically rebuking the Jewish leaders for their obstinacy. His response was, "I do not see how you 'correction” undermines my point which was obvious and still stands. I won’t bother to repeat it here as it should be obvious to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear." I went on to tell him that I was not trying to slight him in the least, and that I was willing to have open eyes and ears. From there, I gave him some passages which I believe support monergism. His reply was, "I won’t argue with you because the narrative clearly means that God wants people to be saved who never are. End of this discussion." Though I attempted to post another comment, he refused to allow it to be posted. As one teacher to another, I hope that he doesn't shut down his students when they simply disagree with him and attempt to explain why.
'' But God shows his love for us that while we were still sinners,Christ died for us" (Rom.5:8). trying to fix Calvism in the paradox of Arminainism does not make sound biblical truth.
Bom dia paz do Senhor! Eu acho que as pessoas que postam vídeos do doutor Roger Olson deveriam postá-los no mínimo legendados pelo menos.
Hitting the bushes around. Waterdown the Truth
Arminian: Christian
Calvinist: Christian
We can discuss the details as brothers in Christ. Not enemies.
Calvinist: Jesus DID NOT die for all the people of the world.
Christian: Jesus DID die for all the peole of world.
2 different gospels, 2 different religions. Are we really brothers?
@@simplearthling both the calvinist and the arminian agree, "whosoever will"
@@m.d.d4250 you're missing the point. On Calvinism, their god has 2 wills, 2 loves, 2 worlds, 2 of everything. Its not the same religion. The "whosoeve will" in Calvinism have been predetermined before time to go to heaven. They have no choice in the matter.
Simple Earthling 😩 Listen. Both reformed and non-reformed people that believe in Christ as Lord and Savior, worship only Him, AND maintain that God is three in persons and one in essence is my brother or sister in Christ. Somebody who hates the imaginary other “side” of the argument isn’t. If you’re going to go after somebody, there’s plenty of Catholics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and Modalists to pick on.
@@PracticalBibleStudies If it makes you feel better to call them your brother, by all means. But please tell your Father that the Calvinists say He has created the mass of humanity for hell for his pleasure and glory. Tell your Father that the Calvinist say Jesus did not die for all people and withholds atonement for the mass of humanity. Tell your Father that the Calvinist say He has 2 loves, 2 wills, 2 worlds, 2 gospels, 2 of everything. Now if you really think the Most High God is okay with that, then maybe you should join their forked-tongue duplicitous religion.
The Father's name is being blasphemed, and your ignorance is appalling. And For what? The sake of unity?
Jesus and the devil does not work hand in hand.
"the devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are, in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how much soever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay, unless in so far as he commands; that they are not only bound by his fetters, but are even forced to do him service," - John Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion Chapter 17.14.11
You are sleeping with the enemy bro. You don't know what you're dealing with. Be free from their chains in the name of Yeshua.
Apparently Flowers removed my comment for criticizing him. He can criticize others but can't take criticism. I call that hypocritical.
He doesn't remove comments. Trust me I've seen some vile stuff in here and he leaves it standing and many times engages such comments during a live stream. Feel free to post it again.
@@rohandanielisaac8107 Thanks.
More video. More lenght. More teaching.
Why cant we get it? Coz Dr. Flowers is to busy... Quit your day job Mr Leighton! Pleeeaase 😂
Free will/choice still intact after the Fall of Man. Also disproving Total Depravity. Genesis 4:1-4. God has regard for Abel and his offering. Abel wills/chose to do good and God has regard to his offering. This also means that man can do good things that is acceptable to God thus dissproving Total Depravity. Cain on the other hand wills/chose to do bad though he has option to do good(Gen 4:7).
Also on Genesis 4:26-...At that time people began to call upon the name of the Lord... implying there is that desire in us to seek God and this also dissprove Total Depravity.
Cain choose his offering out of disobedience and of works...
46:50
I really like this guy but I think that's part of the problem and why I see arminianism and Calvinism as extreme errors on either side. Strange bedfellows in their embrace of original guilt rather then that through the fall of Adam sin and death entered into the world, and since all men sin all die. We have all turned aside and done what seems right in our own eyes.
It's like, Let's avoid the accusation of semi pelagianism, a belief we don't really know because the calvinists and catholics followed the example of Christ by burning alive people who disagreed along with their teaching, by holding to Total inability.
Total inability based on original guilt was taught against by the early church as a gnostic heresy. They consistently taught that people aren't good or bad by Nature. Great example of this is irenaeus in his "against heresies." This is just one of the points he makes,
Men are possessed of free will, and endowed with the faculty of making a choice. It is not true, therefore, that some are by nature good, and others bad.
1. This expression [of our Lord], How often would I have gathered your children together, and you would not, Matthew 23:37 set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, But do you despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But according to your hardness and impenitent heart, you store to yourself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God. But glory and honour, he says, to every one that does good. God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.
I think it's an intentional reframing of the debate that reformed leaders have accomplished. That totally ignores what the early church wrote and the error they fought against.❤
Respect for Dr. Olson for sure.
I will say that I found myself agreeing more with you Dr. Flowers than Dr. Olson in the nuances.
Thank you for the program. Most helpful.
People who reject the idea that our acts and choices can be made freely while nevertheless under the sovereign control of God reject the true Gospel - are without true understanding of the depth of human depravity. Please take the Biblical concept of spiritual death seriously. Eph 2:1-4, 2 Cor 4:4-6.
Ken Trow Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.” (John 8:34) and we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. (Titus 3:3) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God (Romans 8:7) since the natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor 2:14) So then salvation depends not on human will or exertion, but wholly on God, who shows mercy to whom He will. (~Romans 9:15-16)
Ken Trow indeed! Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose trust is the LORD. He is like a tree planted by water. On the other hand, thus says the LORD: “Cursed is the man who trusts in man and makes flesh his strength.” Why? Because the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. Arminian theology doesn’t comprehend this at all.
@@kentrow7010 keep asking Him to forgive you? Christ died once for all to have a chance. Just believe, once. What you're saying is akin to the Jews sacrificing animals to the high priest, over and over again. He's already forgiven you, you don't have to keep asking Him to.
Are calvinists saying that our Heavenly Father is in His Heaven dreaming up new depths for human depravity? Whatever linguistic or philosophical gymnastics are used, this must be the bottom line. Jeremiah 19:5 “They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind “. Is God a liar? Or are there more linguistic and philosophical gymnastics heading my way. My God is sovereign despite what I might do.
Very informative, but a more accurate title for his book would be "Against 4 Out of 5 Points of Calvinism"
So as far as Leighton’s concerned inability apart from the Holy Spirit doing a special work WITHIN the individual just isn’t a thing, contra Scripture…
I'm only bitter I wasn't able to give it the first "like' because some godly anti-Calvinist preceded me.
20july1944 😂
you snooze you lose bro
@@ravissary79 I hadn't thought of that. The bitterness that God foreordained me to have (and for which I'm nonetheless responsible and stand condemned) was an affront to His eternal plan and sovereignty.
Seems an unchrist like tone of debate. Just an observation. The Spirit brings unity. This doesn't happen if people aren't abiding in Christ and maturing. ❤
If he were fleecing the people of God yes. I'm just not sure how sarcasm brings the unity and love of the Spirit But if you take no edification from this that's ok. ❤
50:50 👍👍👍🎯🎯🎯
52:48 👍👍👍🎯🎯🎯
PLEASE, please, please, interview Steve Gregg from The Narrow Path ministries. He is amazing. Please!
i would NEVER send anyone to Piper ,unless he was preaching that God is the author of Sin,to show how wrong calvanism is.
Don't you get sick of people giving over the term 'reformed' to the Calvinists and the Calvinists trying to expropriate it for themselves too? Arminians are really doubly reformed - Arminius came out of Calvinism - he was reformed in Calvinism but came to see that Calvinism needed to be reformed again to truly represent the True and Loving God of the Bible.
cool
Being enlightened by the Holy Spirit is not the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Being enlightened by the Holy Spirit is what makes it possible for one to be able to believe the Gospel in order to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
Compatibalism is True. I have personally experienced that as I exercise MORE Free Will, I have encountered God's Sovereignly Determined Plan.
Jesus teaches compatibalism in the parable of the Talents. Few catch this. The Master is GOD because He has absolute Sovereignty and the evil steward is the "Calvinist" who says because God is absolutely sovereign he didn't exercise his absolute free will. The Master says BECAUSE I am absolutely sovereign you were free to exercise free will... this is THE POINT of the parable and everyone misses it because our minds think compatibalism is "illogical".
Hebrews 4:12
[12]For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
1 Corinthians 12:3
[3]Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
For a Calvinist to say That you can't use reason to figure out God they have just used reason to figure out God namely that you can't use reason to figure out God it's like saying I can't utter a word in English and if uttered in English it's self refuting
It's Like Hey Calvinist you just did,, You just used reason to figure out something about God
I cannot help but thinking of the Farisees of Jesus’ time. when I hear how Calvinists reason. They regarded themselves as the chosen ones and also twisted the Word to mean what they wanted it to mean even to the expences of the obvious and logical. And when confronted than were hiding behind: ”well, God is God, who can understand his way.?”
Here’s a thought. Jesus taught that Peter was BLESSED because of his declaration that Jesus is the Christ, this statement was made because it was REVEALED to him by God Himself. And this is how Jesus will build His church. Also consider Acts 16 that the Lord OPENED her heart to respond to the Gospel. There are many places in Scripture that show Grace bestowed prior to salvation.
The whole book of John clearly states over 100 times...you must BELIEVE to recieve the gift of salvation!!
The L in TULIP has to be weighed up against the gospel that caused Paul the apostle to stand in the face of Peter and tell Peter that he was going away from the gospel. When the gospel is being "changed" it is not "in love" that you agree to disagree. Stand up and be counted...say it how it is : Christ dying only for some people is a completely different gospel to the one preached by the apostles. Paul clearly tells us in Galatians chapter 1 that another gospel is cursed...stay away...it breads confusion because it was designed to do just that.
This is the best book I have read exposing Calvinism! Thanks Dr. Olson!
Arminianism is a disagreement within Calvinism, one difference is in the P. Calvinists teach that a saved person WILL persevere, will stay, not stray. Arminianism teaches that a saved person can lose their salvation.
That's not at all true.
The only significant area of AGREEMENT is total depravity.
Guessing you heard that from Kevin Thompson.
EssenceofPureFlavor No, Arminius believed in total depravity.
@@jaygee2187 That's exactly what I just said.
Dr. Flowers, I have such a hard time with your focus when you discuss the Gospel and salvation. The issue of GREAT concern to Jesus is if a person has eternal life or rejects it, if they have everlasting life or they “perish,” not if someone is in bondage to say alcoholism or thievery, ect. Salvation is the need for eternal, everlasting life, the Gospel isn’t “let’s get this person cleaned up,” it is preaching Jesus’s death for sin, His resurrection making eternal life possible and the need to believe Him for it.
I think it is both. We are freed from the power of sin if we have the Holy spirit in us. So yes we will have enternal life, but also we have the power to defeat sin in our lives through the Holy Spirit.The Holy Spirit is our seal and guarantee that we are going to be with Jesus.
Lisa Fenwick 1 John 5:16-17. It does not say we will be without sin in our Christian walk.
Lisa Fenwick : Salvation is Justification, which is separate from the process of Sanctification. We are responsible for our walk after being eternally saved and our choices to mature and grow are not to be confused with the one requirement for salvation. Salvation is receiving eternal life and the escape from “perishing. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:14-16 Salvation is not perishing.
@@Giggin-yourmom I didn't say that we wouldn't sin. I said we have the power to defeat sin. Those are to different things.
Maybe I missed it on this video, but I don't recall Dr. Flowers ever de-emphisizing, in any of his podcasts, salvation for sanctification.
Ephesians 1:14 In him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation having also believed, you were sealed In him with the Holy Spirit of promise. To me The holy spirit doesn't cause us to believe but Is sealed In us after we heard with our ears, then believed of our own free will.
Thank you both, I appreciate the discussion. I’d like to respectfully add that we can’t all (non calvinists) line up together because we don’t all agree with many if your statements. Having very little knowledge of Arminianism, I was surprised at how much I disagreed with. Wonderful discussion!!
DEAD, used to validate Calvinism in soteriology. What of Adam when scriptures plainly say he would die the day he sin? Did he physically die? Not! Spiritual death occurred. Scriptures say not much after this as to Adam and Eves salvation. But implications are there that they where following the Lord after this exile from garden I believe. So would not Calvinistic use of dead be skewed?
I agree, that the god of Calvinism is a monstrous god... which he says a little over an hour in.
Doesn't this mean that the god of Calvinism, is not the God of the Bible? How is this not a salvation issue? Why are we not more concerned about the salvation of Calvinists? There seems to be a spiritual blindness on them as far as I've seen.... something is definitely wrong, and it's an important thing.
Calvinists worship the Triune God of Scripture. That's not the issue.
The issue is understanding HOW both Calvinists and non-Calvinists come to their soteriological conclusions be it Calvinism or not.
@@michaelmulvaney1492 No. I know that feels nice to say that, but no.
If Calvinists are worshiping the God of scripture, then I'm not. The God I know from scripture wants all to come to a knowledge of the truth and be saved. The God I know is drawing all men to Himself. He's given Himself as a ransom for all men. He places life and death before us and asks us to choose. He wants us to choose life, but He doesn't force anyone. He doesn't impute the guilt of Adam onto anyone, but does let us live with consequences. The God of scripture chose to save those who look to the son and believe, from the foundation of the world; He didn't pick certain people to be believers. The God I know from scripture actually hates sin and doesn't want it to happen; it's not something He decreed and actually brought to pass and performed on some level. The God I know doesn't tempt anyone, but gives us a way of escape that's actually relevant because we have the freedom to choose between right and wrong, obedience and disobedience. The God I know SO loves the world, that He gave Himself as the necessary atonement for all men, but especially the believer.
These things are all things that Calvinism doesn't allow a Calvinist to believe, and they all very much shape who the very person of God is.
Now, I don't believe that God requires us to have a perfect understanding of who He is, by any stretch. But it can't be denied that the differences between the God of Christianity and the god of Calvinism are pretty substantial. Where does God draw the line as far as faithfulness to Him alone? When does it become apparent that we're not worshiping Yahweh anymore? How many times can we be corrected and suppress the truth of scripture until we are so darkened and hardened to the truth of who God is that we are unable to see scripture clearly? When are we guilty of going after a god of our own making? The line must be somewhere, right?
@@christian_gamer_guy6447 , appreciate your passionate response to that. You said much and i want to be succinct in my response.
First, please note that I didn't offer my conclusion on the basis of feeling but logical reasoning instead. Yes, it is difficult to make sense of how different believers can come to different conclusions even on this.
Nevertheless, Calvinists affirm the essentials of the faith.
1) Doctrine of the Trinity;
2) Deity of Christ;
3) Substitutionary atonement,
4) virgin birth;
5) bodily resurrection;
6) salvation by grace through faith in Christ separate from our personal merit or effort.
@@michaelmulvaney1492 "First, please note that I didn't offer my conclusion on the basis of feeling but logical reasoning instead."
When you say "Calvinists worship the Triune God of Scripture. That's not the issue.", I was referring to that as how you feel. When we actually look at the differences, it's reasonable to say that Calvinists worship a god that is VERY different than the God of scripture, when they deny many key aspects about His character, or even what the gospel is and how we can be saved. I would say it's quite logical, given the truths of God that they (consistent calvinists) deny, that it seems like they don't worship the same God.
"Nevertheless, Calvinists affirm the essentials of the faith."
An average Mormon, JW, or Catholic would most likely affirm all those things... but wouldn't you say that the additional things they believe put their assurance of salvation in question? If I say "I believe in the deity of Christ, and He's the substitutionary atonement for those who believe... but He didn't give Himself as a ransom for all men", am I affirming the Christ of scripture, or am I making up my own Christ? If I affirm the doctrine of the trinity, but deny that God want's none to perish but for all to come to repentance, am I affirming the God of scripture?
Trusting and following God isn't a formula or recipe that you can follow so easily like the list you gave, but as I said before, there must be a line somewhere that God draws, right? At what point does my denial of the clear teachings about who God is in scripture constitute me worshiping a false god whose character I dictate?
@@christian_gamer_guy6447 , understand that bible believing Calvinists do believe all those things.
1) JWs deny the deity of Christ and the Trinity
2) Devout Roman catholics consistent with the Council of Tremt reject salvation by grace through faith separate from works. Trent affirmed that Roman sacraments are necessary for the sinner's salvation. Which includes the Roman eucharist at least once a year whereby the participant eats the trandubstantiated literal body and blood of Christ.
3) Mormons believe Jesus is spiritual siblings with the devil. Not the eternal God who created the angel who later fell into sin and became the devil.
The Calvinist reflects their own heart and misunderstandings to the character of God. “The Calvinist is insecure FOR God.”
Nor Cal Theologians
Yes
against arminianism
We may never know the answers to these question of the Calvinism Arminian debate until we get to heaven. With that said, I do believe though that the Bible makes a very strong case for a gracious outward call that is resisted by all men unless the Spirit opens the ears of the hearer and reveals the truth to him. Based on this I believe that Calvinism is the only theology that explains how the word of God works in conversion.
I pray that you would see that Calvinism is a twisting of God's word. You say that we all resist an "outward call" unless the Spirit "opens the ears of the hearer and reveals the truth", but isn't the *Gospel* the very Spirit revealed truth you say we need? What does an "outward call" even mean? Where is that in the bible? Is God reaching out to someone by way of a prophet or apostle or teacher or preacher NOT a working of God's Spirit? Why wouldn't it be???
I think you are confused about the reality of the words of the Bible being the very words of God, and about God's use of people who proclaim God's word, to reach out to people who have yet to choose to trust Him or not.
I hope this makes sense. Read God's word over and over; the more you know it, the more Calvinism should seem incomprehensible.
@@christian_gamer_guy6447 “For many are called but few are chosen” Matthew 22:1-14. That parable in Matthew clearly teaches that many are called refers to an outward call of the gospel that most resist, while few are chosen refers to the inward call of the gospel, I.e. the effectual call of God that never fails to convert the sinner, the irresistible grace that gives the sinner the will to believe the gospel. The calling of God is irrevocable (Romans 11:29), for whom he called he justified teaches Romans 8:30 clearly implying that those that are called effectually, all of them are justified without exception, this internal call is irresistible everybody that is called by God is converted and turns to God, they are unable to resist God. And Acts 2:29 states "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call." Clearly this is not the external call of the gospel as proclaimed by a preacher, but the irresistible internal call of the Spirit converting a man to God, it is the call of God to the christian vocation that no man can resist.
@@henrka "That parable in Matthew clearly teaches that many are called refers to an outward call of the gospel that most resist"
You're trying to use that parable to talk about salvation, yet you ignore what actually happens in the parable. Who are those who are accepted as guests at the banquet? The ones who are "effectually called"? No, obviously not, that's not a biblical concept. The people that are accepted as guests at the banquet, are the ones that do two things: respond to the invitation by coming to the banquet, and the come clothed in the proper wedding garments. If you want to draw an accurate comparison of this to salvation, then you should see the gospel itself as the invite to all people. Accepting the gospel, by faith, clothes us in Christ's righteousness, and we are presented as holy before God. Your understanding of this parable doesn't seem to actually take the parable into account, and adds on this weird other inward call that isn't shown to be anywhere in scripture.
"the irresistible grace that gives the sinner the will to believe the gospel"
Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing." Obviously God's grace is not "irresistible". This passage alone should prove that to you. Let scripture change your mind about this.
"The calling of God is irrevocable (Romans 11:29), for whom he called he justified teaches Romans 8:30 clearly implying that those that are called effectually, all of them are justified without exception, this internal call is irresistible everybody that is called by God is converted and turns to God, they are unable to resist God."
Oy. So, Paul is talking about Israel in 11:29, and how they were God's chosen people. That is still true today, it's irrevocable. You realize though, that the rest of what you said here, goes against what Paul says throughout Romans, right? Most of the Jews were denying Christ. They were seeking their own righteousness through works, instead of by faith. They were *ABSOLUTELY* able to resist God, and they were called His chosen people! Think about what you're saying! Don't let Calvinistic proof texts destroy your critical thinking and your ability to read the simple words of the text. Also, to understand Romans 8:30, you need to look at Romans 8:29 as well. "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters." Who is it that God predestined? Those He foreknew. What does that mean? Ephesians 1:4 says that those in Christ, the faithful in Christ Jesus, have been chosen to be made holy and blameless. It seems that those who God foreknew, must be those who are in Christ; those who will believe the truth of the gospel.
"And Acts 2:29 states 'For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.' Clearly this is not the external call of the gospel as proclaimed by a preacher, but the irresistible internal call of the Spirit converting a man to God"
God calls the faithful in Christ. Why would you assume this this is irresistible? The next 2 verses seem to imply otherwise:
Acts 2:40-41 "40 With many other words he warned them; and *he pleaded with them* , “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 *Those who accepted his message* were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day."
Peter PLEADED with them, and warned them with many words... why would he need to do this if there is this irresistible grace? And don't just say "God uses means", that's dumb. You know your worldview doesn't allow for fallen man to be susceptible to being convinced of spiritual truth, if you're like the average calvinist that is. No, Peter pleaded with the people there, because he knew they could respond positively to the truth of the gospel. And verse 41 says as much: "those who accepted his message were baptized". Those who accepted the words of the gospel that Peter was preaching, were numbered as believers. Not those who were irresistibly graced, but those who believed, those who accepted the truth of the gospel as being true, like Ephesians 1:13 says. He tells them to save themselves from this corrupt generation, implying again that it's a choice that they are making. There's just no room for Calvinism here.
@@christian_gamer_guy6447 Matthew 23:37 is seriously misinterpreted by you "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing." This passage speaks of God's will that men would repent, it is also God's will that man will obey the law. But God has decreed that no man will obey the law perfectly but Jesus (Romans 11:32), God has also decreed that no man will believe the gospel except the predestined (Acts 13:48). The gospel and the death of Christ is not intended for and has no bearing to anybody else but the elect. I agree with you that the good news is for all that respond to the gospel, but disagree with you that any man can come to Christ, because scripture teaches that unless he was elected first and effectually called he is unable to believe the gospel, only the predestined are effectually called Romans 8:30.
@@henrka "it is also God's will that man will obey the law."
Don't let yourself be deceived into thinking that because we can't obey the whole law, we can't believe in Christ. That is nonsense. Jesus came and died and rose so that we might have His righteousness by FAITH. Faith in HIS works, not ours. Faith is not works, otherwise we would be able to boast.
"But God has decreed that no man will obey the law perfectly but Jesus (Romans 11:32)"
That verse, taken the way you're saying, would also mean that all are saved, because it ends with "that he may have mercy on all." It doesn't mean that. If you read before that, in Romans 11:30-31 "30 For just as you [Gentiles] were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their [the Jews] disobedience, 31 so they [The Jews] too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you [Gentiles] they also may now receive mercy." This is all relating back to what Paul was saying in Romans 11:11-14: "11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
13Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them."
Paul is, in 11:32 and the verses around it, wrapping up what He's already said; that the Jews are generally hardened to the truth right now, and through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. In the past, the gentiles were disobedient, but now it's flipped, and our faith in their God will hopefully make Paul's fellow Jews jealous, so, we see that verse 32 is saying that God has consigned all [Jews and Gentiles] to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all [Jews and Gentiles]. This just isn't a text telling us that "God has decreed that no man will obey the law" and that He's also going to save them all (which you'd need to be saying if you affirm what you said about people being decreed to not follow His law perfectly.
"God has also decreed that no man will believe the gospel except the predestined (Acts 13:48)"
Luke could mean that the individuals whom God intended to believe did, or this could be a broad reference that, according to God’s plan, the gospel reached the Gentiles in this region. This verse could merely mean that those who He foreknew would believe that day, did. It could also relate to the idea of remnant theology, where it seems like God has at times specially protected or reserved certain people either TO follow Him or THAT follow Him, and He's elected this time to further reveal more truth to them. At the very least, you can see that it does not HAVE to mean what you say it does.
"The gospel and the death of Christ is not intended for and has no bearing to anybody else but the elect."
This is not biblical. The elect are those who are in Christ. Ephesians 1:13 shows us that we are in Christ when we hear the truth of the gospel and believe. Ephesians 1:4 is saying that those in Him, the faithful in Christ, are chosen to be made holy and blameless, NOT that anyone is chosen to become someone who is faithful in Christ. 2 Peter 3:9 clearly tells us that God wants none to perish, but for all to come to repentance, and that He is patiently waiting for those that would believe. In John 20:31, John tells us that the gospel he just wrote is "written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." This is because we can hear the truth of God, and believe it, or suppress it.
"because scripture teaches that unless he was elected first and effectually called he is unable to believe the gospel, only the predestined are effectually called Romans 8:30."
Calvinism teaches that, scripture doesn't. What does verse 29 say? Romans 8:29 "For *those whom he foreknew* he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." It starts with God knowing someone beforehand... and it says that God destined beforehand that these people would be conformed to the image of His son. Who does God adopt in Ephesians 1:5? Those who are IN Jesus! The faithful in Christ! So God foreknew, those in Christ who are destined to be conformed to the image of His son, are the called, and they are/will be/have been justified, and glorified.
You see that, if you interpret it the way you do, it's all about being elect. If you interpret it this way, it works with the rest of scripture that calls of us to believe God at His word, and it's all about trusting in Christ, because God has chosen to save those who are in Christ, His elect one. I hope this makes sense to you.
If the nature of God is so counter opposite between Calvinists and Traditionalists. How do you still hold that both are still brothers in Christ? That being the case, I would say Mormonism is closer to the nature of God when it comes to Arminianism and even Traditionalists. That being the nature of God allows for freewill. There are differences for sure, but that main point really makes for a far more common ground than that found with those who hold to Calvinism.
Traditionalists and Calvinists use the same Bible, they just disagree on the interpretations of certain passages. Mormons have an added "book" and they have a different view of who Jesus is. Mormons are NOT Christians.
@@Mark-oo3om you do know Calvinist also have confessions and cannons? Just saying because the major blockade affecting majority of Calvinists is their confessions and cannons. In the same way the Catholic's cathcism affects them.
@@tivmego give me some examples of these confessions and cannons you're talking about.
@@Mark-oo3om WCF and the cannons of dort
@@tivmego yeah, you're correct thank you. It still comes down to interpretations of the Holy scriptures, in my opinion. The Mormons have something else different all together.
John Piper clear? That's debatable...
IF these men are saved, they are barely saved.
Jesus uses parabolic language because His people the Jews at the time should have known Him but they were pursuing righteousness apart from faith.
God must reveal truth by His word and His Spirit. It does not matter how many degrees you have in front of his name this case as an example.
First, why hide the true topic instead you make it about Calvin where is this name in this Bible? Folks, they like to discredit the real word called ELECTION. Why not say what you really mean as the heading example,
"AGAINST ELECTION?
Folks, the reason why they do this is to down play the word of God and His biblical word He uses in His word many times as, Elect, Election, Chosen, Predesinate, Predesination, and Ordain. All these words are in the Bible over and over this is why they don't want you to know just do a word study and see just how God uses these words.
Each of these words have meanings. The question is whether Calvinist usage or definitions of these correspond with biblical usage -- or not! For example, if you read "predestined" in Eph. 1 to assume it means "pre-determined to believe" or "predetermined as among the elect of God", then you will be utilizing a Calvinistic understanding of that word. However, if you try to not assume Calvin's definition and read what Paul is actually stating about what believers are predestined to, then you may find that he is not using the word how you previously assumed. After going through this exercise in Eph. 1 (and your mind might be blown), find and listen with interest to Leighton Flowers recent youtube broadcast regarding "predestination" (what it means and how it is used in the NT).
Being against predestination or election is in this case being against how Calvinism uses them.
They were generally accepted as corporate election and corporate predestination, before Augustine came along. Arminians believe in corporate election and predestination, just like the early church.
Wow 55:00 to 59:00 min mark was very telling. I hope James White picks up on this and reviews this portion.
This is not just “in the weeds” this is what springs forth the whole debate.
I’d like to see a debate between Leighton and Olson on this subject.
Hi, I'm from the future. Today's RFG covered this.
I was a bit disappointed that Olson didn't push the semi-Pelagian issue a bit more, given his article a while back raising similar concerns about the Traditionalist Statement.
What Leighton said seems to go against canon 7 of the Canons of Orange (529), from the council formed to settle the Pelagian dispute. In paticular, he seems to affirm that man can "assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit," and says of those who teach such views: "he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, “For apart from me you can do nothing” (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, “Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God” (2 Cor. 3:5)."
After listening to this discussion, to me Arminianism is just as silly as Calvinism. Dr. Flowers's view on how to get saved is slightly better but in my opinion still rather naïve.
What is your more enlightened view?