This was a very cool video! Just wanted to add a small note: entry number 17 describes photon readings as negative. Darkness is simply the lack of photons our eyes are able to detect, or in other words, darkness is a lack of photons, zero. Negative photon readings should be impossible. This is no normal darkness entry 17 is studying, but something more all encompassing, a true void.
Oh, I forgot to mention as well (this might just be tangential), Ralsei calls himself the prince of darkness, but refers to his own land as a kingdom. I don't know if this means specifically that there is some greater power or darkness beyond Ralsei, but I just found it interesting that he does not refer to his realm as a principality, if he's truly the leader of it.
Dark (Lack of light in our world), Darker (The Darkness of an impure Dark Fountain), Yet Darker (Pure Darkness from a Grand Dark Fountain). That might be what E.#17 is talking about (unless there is a step beyond Pure Darkness somehow). Also when Ralsei said that opening a dark fountain would cause The Roaring it may have been because opening a Dark Fountain in a Dark World would create another Grand Fountain of Pure Darkness (Let's say it's 5× more powerful than a normal fountain for simplicity) Thus immediately overtaking the balance and ending the world. Also, has anyone else considered that there may be more Grand fountains out beyond the town? It might be weird for the only one to be in a school supply closet. (Also just how long has the Grand Fountain been there?) There's also something that has been bugging me, what happens when light extinguishes darkness and causes whatever the light version of the Roaring would be? (And is there a way to shift the balance without altering the number/purity of Dark fountains.) Sorry for the long, sporadic comment but I just wanted to get it out somewhere that was relevant.
Yo, thats wild that the game states "once upon a time, a LEGEND was whispered among shadows" and the legend about banishing the angels heaven was figuratively "whispered" (uploaded without fanfare in a strange font) "among shadows" (on an unknown website with a dark background and text) "once upon a time" (even before undertale's release)
You touching on the link between darkness, the secret bosses, and abandonment/obscurity tickled my brain a little. I'm gonna go full free-associative for a bit if that's okay. The very first time anyone saw the phrase "don't forget" associated with UT/DR was the note patched into Sans's lab in Undertale- this patch being the first Undertale ever received and the same one that allowed Fun events to occur without save file modification (ie. everything to do with Gaster). The date this patch was released - January 2016- means that Toby would have had a clear picture of just how successful Undertale's launch was while preparing it. Or more to the point, it was the first content added to Undertale since Toby realized he'd be able to make Deltarune. Deltarune, as a concept, predated Undertale but was ultimately scrapped and cannibalized by said project (possibly due to concerns of scope, but that's speculative). This, in a very literal sense, meant the abandonment of most of its story and characters to (as far as Toby would have known at the time) permanent obscurity. If we assume that W. D. Gaster isn't just a random Undertale easter egg that's been retconned into DR's story, but is in fact a major character from the original Deltarune that was retconned into an Undertale easter egg after the project was cancelled, it's very tempting to read a double meaning into Sans's note. Intradiegetic: "Don't forget Gaster". Extradiegetic: "Don't forget _Deltarune"_ If we go along with all this, we get Gaster as a potential figurehead/symbol/incarnation of what it means to abandon an idea, or a dream, or a creative work. To cut content. If Undertale flopped and Deltarune was never made, would that count as it's world being covered in darkness? To be clear: this question is not rhetorical, I literally don't know. This is just free-associative mode. But on at least a _vibes_ level this ties in with the pattern of secret bosses being hidden or abandoned , the Spade King resenting the Lightners for abandoning his people (ie. not lending them a place in their imaginative worlds), and Dess being mysteriously absent from both the physical world of Hometown the game's narrative after potentially having been lost in a mysterious dark place. I know even less what to make of this last connection, but there's even a potential thematic parallel with Kris and Chara, the latter being (according to my speculation) a bizarro version of the original Deltarune protagonist now known as "Kris" who was violently edited-down and recontextualized as an Undertale character after Deltarune was scrapped, much in the same way Gaster may have been. I'm way out on a limb here, but it would at least lend Kris some metaphysical link to this through-line of abandonment/obscurity/material cut from a narrative. The biggest unknown I'm still left with is how any of that ties into Ralsei, the prince of pure darkness itself, aside from Asriel literally being abandoned in a dark place at the end of Undertale. For any of this to make sense he has to be hiding something pretty big, but then again, who would that really surprise at this point?
Awesome analysis as always Andrew! I really should have touched on the mention of Don’t Forget in UT/DR. Gaster representing cut content really works from a diegetic perspective as well as Gaster is so tied to abandonment already.
Interesting free based crack co-, I mean free association thinking right there. I do wonder, if this abandoned content explored in narrative stuff can hold even a small candle in the finished story, how much of this was planned from the start. Are we getting the Deltarune that Toby was scribbling in Notepad text files in 2011 or the Deltarune that grew in the petri dish of Undertale's emergence? Likely to be explained in the Deltarune art book releasing in 2027.
The part about Deltarune being scrapped and therefore we can think of Gaster's role in Undertale coming from a result of that is such an eloquent idea of concepts known to every Deltarune enjoyer, though not one I've seen combined before. But it is also something I had only vague ideas about and could never put to words, not even now paraphrasing you, and I'm so glad I have a way to express the idea now. And as stated both here and in the reply above, it's so interesting to think how the Deltarune we'll get is not necessarily the one imagined before Undertale, and to wonder how that has changed things. I mean don't we already know Toby planned for characters to be human in the Light world but monsters in the Dark world? All things considered, that could be only an incredibly minor aesthetic change, given all monster lore could have just been created for Undertale specifically. GOD I can't wait for this game. ...Now I have to wonder if Toby seemingly changing demeanor about Deltarune only having one ending could mean an ending that is what he originally dreamed years ago, and one that is made after years of having Deltarune scrapped in mind.
To add on to the abandonment/darkness/obscurity idea, could it be that Kris continues to make dark fountains as a way to keep us, the players, playing deltarune, as without any dark worlds to explore there's no reason for us to play, and if we don't play, don't observe the characters of deltarune, then they do not exist anymore
It was a LEGEND of HOPE. It was a LEGEND of DREAMS. It was a LEGEND of LIGHT. It was a LEGEND of DARK. Dark is on the same side as dreams, Light is on the same side as Hope. I think these are the meanings of light and darkness. In the Asriel fight, the Hope act is "You held on to your hopes... " so to speak, so Hope is the ability to hold on, to persist, it reduces the amount of damage you take. Hopes prevent you from losing. The Dreams act is "You think about why you're here now..." Dreaming could be interpreted as why you keep going. Dreaming spawns an item in your inventory that restores your HP. Dreams remind you to persist. I think that dreams without hope are fleeting, and hope without dreams is directionless. In the roaring prophecy, the darkners turn to stone, and the lightners are doomed to wander in darkness for eternity. I think this represents losing sight of dreams among a sea of them or being unable to fulfill any of them because you can't choose or hope for one. In don't forget, the light is running low, the places that you know seem like fantasy, but there's a light inside your soul. fantasy is largely irrelevant to reality. I think this represents a choice between finding that hope and reasserting reality or giving up hope and letting fleeting dreams replace reality.
I feel like people miss something about "photon readings negative" a lot: this is *impossible.* The phrase 'photin readings negative' implies not just an absence of light (what darkness actually is) but the *presence* of UN-light. Photon readings ZERO is absolute darkness, negative is nonsensical. I'm *pretty* sure this is just a sort of clever joke line, but it also kind of falls in line with how there seem to be like.. lamps that shoot beams of darkness in the dark world. As if dark were a *thing* on its own and not just the lack of a thing.
Well, look at how the dark fountains affect the places they're made in. Specifically when you open the door to their room. It makes the room dim, and it seems to pulsate at the door specifically. If positive photon readings mean something is creating light... Wouldn't negative photon readings mean something is absorbing it? Like how the dark fountains seemed to absorb the light of the surrounding area when the doors to them open?
They're anti-photons that when merged with regular Photons create darkness (absence of light). But are there anti-eyes to see emanating anti-light in absence of light?
I feel that darkness is a metaphor for the subconscious. The Dark World and the Darkners who inhabit them can be said to have a dream like vibe to them. Plus, they can very much play the role of the Juengian shadow representing the parts of the characters' self that they choose to repress. In the Snowgrave route, multiple references are made to "waking up" and "sleeping." Which would make sense since dreams are often seen as manifestations of our subconscious. It fits with the themes of escapism since the subconscious is responsible for things like impulse control, desire, hopes, and dreams. And if darkness represents the subconscious, then by that logic, light is a stand in for the conscious mind. It would be things like logic, thought, and awareness. The angel strikes me as an alien being focused on logic, discipline, and hierarchy. There's no hard evidence for that it's just the vibe I get. It makes sense why you'd want to balance the two. A world a total darkness would be a world ruled by Id, where we'd never be able to process our hang-ups or solve our problems. But a world of light would be a world without hopes and dreams, the things that give us the determination to imagine and build a better world. Obviously, since we're only two chapters in, I could easily be proven wrong. But, where the story is right now, that's how I've come to interpret darkness and light.
"Close your eyes and see...". Darkness can facilitate imagination- monsters in the closet and under the bed, the excitement and mystery of basements and attics, and, of course, dreams at night. There are so many comparisons to fiction I could make. You can connect with friends through fiction- like the Lightner kids are doing in Dark Worlds- fiction can change you as a person, like Dark World adventures change them (most prominent with Susie), fiction can be harmful or helpful, its shape depends on the will of its creator, etc. Dark worlds as fantasy/imagination/escapism, and the Roaring as a total disconnect from reality/living in an imaginary world/ignoring your actual life make a lot of sense to me.
@@Fragmentsinfractals488 Well, it's the Roaring *Knight* , but yeah, it fits- the Knight (the one creating most fountains) wants to get away from reality.
Nice use of Michael as an example of a more vengeful angel, given that ol Mike there is the knight-captain who leads the angels during the battles on earth in the apocalypse
Thank you for mentioning how the Dark Fountain in Castle Town is different from the others, because it definitely explains what Ralsei can do if all other dark fountains come from the one he came from
Just wanna say, you made a very good theory. It's interesting as to how the darkness would work later in the future, and how there are different meanings for it.
I think there's an aspect to this dichotomy of light and dark that tends to be overlooked by most who talk about it in the community. That aspect being the diagetic nature of darkness. When you take a look at Undertale and other works by Toby Fox such as Skies Forever Blue, you can see that he has a large investment in exploring the relationship between the player and the game. Kris so far has been our call-out for that. Darkness can be regarded as fiction, abstraction, nonexistence and suspension of disbelief. This would explain why gaster and dess are such elusive characters. To be succumbed to the darkness is to fall into the literal depths of unreality and unknowing. Don't Forget also supports this, as the "light inside your soul" can be the will of the player itself being expressed through the soul. Think about Toby's intentions when it comes to deconstructing game mechanics. He wants you to care for these fictional entities, and he does a great job at it. Think of his other works and how he's asked the question "Where do they go when you don't play it anymore?". Well the processes halt, the screen stops displaying its reality, and for all intents and purposes, it's returned to the world of fiction. It's succumbed to darkness. Many people wonder the motives of Kris, especially after the fountain. But if Kris is aware of the player, and the player, a being literally superior above everything else in Deltarune, is responsible for keeping everything loaded, then Kris may feel the obligation to keep it entertained and enticed that it may come back and shine the light of reality on their world. I really hope this is a correct assessment of a facet of light and dark. As it gives a lot more leverage and weight to the whole concept of balancing the two forces. We may get to see what kinds of absurd distortions of reality may come if it falls out of balance. (Also the player is literally above everything where the sun ought to be. As if the player may be an angel observing the entire game and conducting it's will through Kris. Banishing the angels heaven may literally just be the end of the game. That one destined ending that technically must always happen.)
Loved this essay. You were able to extract a pretty good amount of meaning out of a lore element that, although omnipresent and a universal force, is slowly being explored and expanded upon by the narrative and metanarrative. The first step in understanding Darkness is realizing it is escapism, fantasy, and adventure. The second step is likely much darker. What is that going to mean? There might be a curve ball around the corner that is currently not predictable by what we know. Just something to chew on in the mean time. Can't wait for the next one!
the entry number 17 room literally has gaster in the room name. also balance implies that both are important and, more importantly for the prophecy, in regard to the angel's heaven, *too much of either can be a bad thing* which means *too much light could be just as bad as too much darkness*
I hope you keep this up, it's wonderful to have voices like yours reminding us of this stuff. Because yeah, it's difficult to separate the portrayal of literal darkness from the portrayal of emotional darkness in the game. Though, as always, that has interesting implications for the Snowgrave/Weird route. There is a tremendous amount of darkness in Noelle, as seen by her timidness and her many statements about her mom, and in the Weird route, we add to that immensely. Perhaps this is the darkness the Angel is sourced from in the climax? I'm firmly convinced of Noelle either being the Angel herself or having the capacity to create the angel during the climax of the prophecy, assuming it's truthful. The whole problem being, aside from us generically resembling the trio of the prophecy, we haven't seen any of its claims come true yet.
About the angel; It's pretty likely that the angel is an force of darkness, as you were saying. We obviously don't know anything about what specifically the "angel's heaven" is but we know it's some sort of fountain/dark world for sure, something with a clear connection with escapism. We know that only lightners can make dark fountains from Queen's monologue, so it seems like the Angel is a being of light (aka a lightner), just one who's making dark worlds to bring about whatever their version of "heaven" is. Making the Angel a lightner would still subvert the idea of the angel as a heavenly being of light, since though they do fit that description to the darkners, to the lightners they're just an ordinary person. The angel being a lightner would also tie into common imagery of angels as descending from a higher plane to a lower one, usually to give something to or guide those below. This idea fits with both Deltarune's angel as the creator of a fountain/dark world (being a godlike being to the darkners, which gave them a world to live in) and Asriel as undertale's angel being an incredibly powerful entity who would appear from a seemingly impossible place to free the monsters from the underground. As for who the angel may or may not be, there really aren't a ton of concrete things to go off of other than vibes. I'd personally put my guess to Noelle, though. Toby seems to be consistently connecting Noelle and the angel, with tons of allusions throughout the script; Her dark world appearance, association with the light world's church, desire to "grow big angel wings and fly", those craft angels she and Dess made, Noelle's above-curve power level (decently so in the regular route and terrifyingly so in the weird route), etc. Noelle, like the rest of the main cast of lightners, knows about how to make fountains and has at least considered it before, and there are currently a lot of loose plot threads that she's related to and will play parts in (Dess's disappearance and the rift between the Hollidays and the Dreemurs, Rudy's failing health, Noelle's mom, the inevitable Susie/Noelle relationship).
11:15 I think something that could also be possible is that the other fountains contain in some way the will of the Lightner that made it. Queen says, 'Coursing Its Will Into The Blade' or something along the lines of that, talking about The Knight creating a fountain. If the will to create a fountain is coursed into the blade, maybe it 'taints' the fountain created, and the Kingdom of Darkness does not have the will of a Lightner creator in its fountain. That's why any Darkner can live in Castle Town, and Ralsei can be in any Dark World without being turned to stone - though I've seen some other interesting theories about a Darker conforming to the world to avoid turning into stone.
24:50 i really think the angel is the person controlling the vessel/player and that the angel's heaven is merely a metatext definition of our (us, the people playing the game) reality, a heaven/paradise where we arent controlled by plot devices and video game mechanics. we are quite literally controlling (even if we dont have a choice in this story--or we do, according to Ralsei) from above. banishing the angel's heaven from having control over the story of this world of characters who want to be unaffected by a player's unknowable motives ( if we Can do something in a video game, be it good or bad, eventually it happens because we 'have to' explore a world to its limits, because its just a game... right?) this is more so bolstered--yet it comes from undertale, which i only bring up for comparing the double entendre of what the angel could be referring to, because UT/DR should be treated separately, that an undertale prophecy stated that an angel would come from above and the underground would be emptied (be it murdering or destroying the barrier). while frisk is quite literally "from above." we the player, playing undertale, come from a plane above the confines of the game's universe. but both undertale and deltarune utilizing the same deconstruction of video game meta in the same fashion could be rehashed?? which maybe toby wouldnt want to use the same "twist" twice, yet deltarune being conceived of before undertale could mean that the idea was rehashed for undertale after deltarune was put on the backburner at the time.
Regarding the comments towards the end about banishing the Angel's Heaven, and how the game seems to question the interpretation of light=good, dark=bad -- or vice-versa: I seriously urge all you Deltarune theorists out there to check out the Book of Revelation from the Bible. No, seriously. The entire story of the game seems to be one gigantic allusion to the story of that book. Direct comparisons can be made, here are some: - The book of revelation is a story about prophetic visions, centering around the apocalypse, i.e. rapture, where heaven brings upon the destruction of old earth and old heaven, destroying the non-believers and creating a new paradise. > Deltarune is a story about a prophecy centering around the Roaring, where the Angel's Heaven aims to fill the world with darkness, turning Darkners to stone in the process. The Lightners, who are able to initiate the roaring, end up wanting to do so because of how much they enjoy their adventures there. Most importantly, Ralsei even uses the exact biblical term to deter the heroes at the end of the roaring cutscene: "Is that your idea of paradise?" - The book of revelation features two main opposing parties. On the side of heaven, we have the lamb (Jesus Christ), who is responsible for opening the 7 seals that initiate the apocalypse, as well as numerous angels who aid him. > In Deltarune, on the side of Angel's Heaven, we have the Roaring Knight who is responsible for opening at least 2 of the fountains, as well as the Lightners, who can also aid him by opening dark fountains themselves. - On the side of hell, we have 4 distinctly identified characters in the bible. These are the dragon (aka. Satan), the Beast of the Sea, the Beast of the Earth, and the Harlot. > Opposing the Angel's Heaven, in Deltarune we have the 3 heroes of legend, who are at various points throughout the game referred to in Satanic terms: ----> Ralsei is referred to as the Prince of Darkness, literally takes the form of a goat, as does Satan in popular imagery. ----> Kris is referred to as Lightbringer, has glowing red eyes, acted weird and creepy in the past, has partaken in demonic summoning with Catti and has interest in the Occult. ----> Susie is generally seen as evil by everyone in Hometown, has the form of a dragon (presumably). > As such, it seems clear that the Heroes of the Deltarune prophecy are in some way representative of biblical hell. - The commonly known association of the number 666 to the devil originates from the book of revelation. It is also known as "the mark", the number of the beast, or "the number of a man". > 666 is the number most commonly associated with Gaster in both Undertale and Deltarune. In the egg rooms, he is referred to as "a man" and he is associated with other characters that hold demonic imagery -- Jevil most obviously, but also Spamton, who seems to make a deal with the devil. The imagery of receiving the egg from the tree is also reminiscent of the forbidden fruit (i.e. original sin). > Moreover, 6 is representative of being flawed and imperfect -- while 7 represents perfection. 7 human souls are required to break the barrier in Undertale, and there are 7 chapters in Deltarune. 7 is the most common number in the book of revelation. You can do many speculations using the contents of the biblical story, but from an analytical standpoint, these are obvious and almost certainly intentional parallels. Moreover, Toby Fox was in a church youth group, which his pastor confirmed on Twitter. He certainly does know these biblical stories.
The darkness & light remind me of Zekrom & Reshiram & their connection to truth & ideals. & since Toby works for Pokémon now, I think it’s intentional. The unnameable one shall bring forth the original dragon; the angel’s heaven.
12:20 The interesting thing I've just realized with the image, which is probably obvious(but i still feel like mentioning) is that the first chair image has a light focused on it's center, but the second chair sort of has a *dark* focused on the center. Or rather there is darkness focused in the center of the chair, functioning like the opposite of a light. This also works with the whole "negative photons" comment from entry 17!
Very interesting video, I like how many plot and character details can be extracted from Tobi's games that are not explicitly stated. Ps: As proof that I watched the whole thing, I respect the music at the end, my favorite gen 5 track
For some reason I remembered the works of Carl Jung. With this whole topic about the Conscious, Unconscious, Collective Unconscious, the topic with internal archetypes, like the same Shadow archetype, and much more. Quite an interesting video, thanks.
I really liked the video. It was nice to see people talking abt the thematic bits about the darkness in undertale / deltarune cus I personally thinks it's really cool. I also I lijed your editing style. It was nice :D
I think imagination is a critical part of darkness. What do you do in the dark? You dream. And how do you skip to the dark world in chapter 2? You sleep. What's to say the entirety of chapter 2 isn't all a dream from the second Kris falls asleep from either their room or desk in class? And what if darkness is imagination, then the opposite, light would be reality. The truth, concrete reality, and logic itself. Where magic doesnt exist, the sick don't miraculously recover, and "your choices don't matter."
You can do that "skip to the dark world by sleeping in Kris bed" in chapter 1 too. On that same note, I think it's just there to make life easier for speedrunner.
@@mr.g9761 it IS to make life easier for speedrunning but there's some sort of explanation to it as well. there's gotta be. i don't know what it is but there's definitely SOMETHING to the connection between dreaming, dark worlds and going to sleep to get to one
Something people analyzing Entry 17 don't seem to touch on is that "Photon readings negative" doesn't necessarily mean "bro there are ANTI-photons omg". In this context, when measuring for the presence or absence of something, "negative" means "it is not present." Imagine the test is asking the question, "are there photons?" and the result is "no", "negatory", "negative". That said, since this is a video game in which there are "dark bulbs", "dark worlds", and whatnot, it could absolutely be referring to some sort of quantized unit of darkness. Just want to point out that in basically any other context, "photon readings negative" would mean "there are no photons".
hey neat tid bit that i just thought about. in don't forget in this line 'There's a light inside your soul That's still shining in the cold with the truth', it mentions that the light shines the truth. and the line before is this 'and the shadows start to grow And the places that you know seem like fantasy' and it mentions that the darkness make things like fantasy similarly to how dark fountains function, dark fountains makes fantasize versions of the light world, a fake versions of it, a lie, a dream. so from what we gathered light is basically the truth, the real thing like the light world/real world, and darkness is a lie, a fantasy similar to the dark world
oh hey, i was wondering if you would make another deltarune video, this is a real treat!! ive been inspired by you and others in this community to give my own theory a go, about how maluable the interpretation of the prophecies seen in undertale and deltarune are, but since i cant edit that well, im going to try and use physical props and diagrams to get my own thoughts across :) its school and uni holidays in australia right now, so i though i would try and do something fun. Thank you so much!
My interpretation would be that light is the real world and darkness is escapism/imagination. Neither are good or bad, but a lack of balance between the two can lead to disastrous consequences. So far most antagonists have been about the dangers of darkness, but we may see the other side of the coin in the future. Might even be that the roaring can not only be caused by having too many fountains open but also by having them all shut down.
I agree that the angel is probably an agent of darkness, as you said. There's not much information on what exactly the "Angel's Heaven" is, but it's pretty clear that it's a dark fountain. This means that whoever the angel is (or whoever ends up filling the prophetic role of the angel, if you want to think of it that way) is going to make a fountain to bring about their idea of "heaven", likely whatever's within that specific dark world. Considering only lightners can make dark fountains according to Queen's speech, it's clear that the angel is a being of light (aka a lightner). This would still subvert the idea of the angel as a heavenly body: While the angel does appear heavenly, even godlike, to the darkners, literally creating them from inanimate objects, they're just an ordinary person from a lightner's perspective. The angel being a lightner who makes a dark fountain lines up with ordinary imagery of angels as divine beings who descend from the heavens to give gifts or guidance. This is true in the context of Deltarune's angel, who from the perspective of the darkners, a lightner would fit the bill perfectly. It's also true for Undertale's angel, Asriel, an incredibly powerful being or royal lineage who has seen the surface and will free the monsters from the underground. In terms of who the angel actually could be, there's not much to go off of other than vibes but I'd put my money on Noelle. Toby's been repeatedly connecting her with the angel, between her own dialogue about "wanting to grow angel wings and fly", the little snow angels she and Dess made, her affiliation with the angel-centric church in the light world, Her dark world outfit looking like angel's robes, Spamton explicitly calling her the angel, etc. She's shown to be stronger than the average party member in both routes, terrifyingly so in the weird route, and she both knows how to make a fountain and considered doing so at the end of chapter two. There's also a lot of reason to keep Noelle relevant since there's a bunch of unresolved plot threads that she's intertwined with (Rudy's failing health, Dess's disappearance, the gulf between the Hollidays and the Dreemurs, Noelle's mother, her relationship with Susie, etc.) Noelle as an antagonist also has a lot of potential for drama, since Noelle/Kris/Susie all know each other well and probably wouldn't particularly want to fight, even if their paths do cross eventually.
The way Sans, Papyrus and W.D. are named after fonts really makes the connection between them and gaster stronger, maybe they all come from the same place that Sans talks about... also similar to typing quirks in Homestuck. Probably has been said before lol
Good theorizing! I think there's also a lot of interesting connection between darkness and dark worlds and dreams (a la hopes & dreams). One note: Seam uses they/them pronouns (per Toby)
Loved this video !! This video is like a light shining through the darkness of my lack of knowledge of this game (since I’ve only played chapter one yet aheehee)
Great video! I dunno exactly how this'd fit into the video, but Queen also says in the Snowgrave route "Wake? No, She [Noelle] Has Already Awakened Too Much Let Her Close Her Eyes And Sleep Away Into A Darker, Darker Dream. Thought it was worth mentioning, since it literally says the darker darker dream stuff like gaster does. Also gentle reminder, but Seam seems to use they/them pronouns.
random thing about entry 17- but why couldn't it have been 18 instead? 18 is the sum of three sixes, 666 is 18 fractured, split up. that would been cool idk, just had thought.
I love the video! Could you possibly turn the music volume down in the background? The music in the last section was loud and distracting for me and I couldn’t process what you were saying in that part
To understand darkness you need take into account the darkest place in our existence, the solar system A black hole is substantially darker then other parts of an already perfectly black space due to its ability to absorb everything in its surrounding area into its singularity including photon partials emitted form any source of light However this is done only via a perfectly unbreakable gravitational force not the darkness it’s self or absence of light, in fact the mere perfect darkness as well as gravitational readings are how we even spot or detect active black holes But this doesn’t explain a negative photon reading or growing darkness just absence of light or photons that can which enter an object then the perception of our eye or observation tool Enter dark matter, not the FF material or stone we know so well in video games but an actual discovered element that consist of the separation of light matter I know it was only able to be observed in a controlled unit consisting of nothing but magnetic energy creating a gravitational vortex to hold it because if it came into contact with any matter what so ever then it would immediately annihilate on contact Scientist actually dub the phrase annihilation when this effect occurs as it doesn’t cause any ramifications apart form completely seizing to exist with no traces of its existence So far scientist have only the technology & power sources capable of generating a single dark particle known as dark matter but it has been theorized that dark matter exist in our universe in mass & this in turn could explain why and how the universe is ever expanding given time/space goes hand in hand, and not only that but the creation of matter of any sort would immediately cause the dark matter to annihilate or seize to exist as matter would have taken its place This does explain expanding darkness, a tangible form of darkness & even darkness that is not determined by light or the absence of light, more like a time before the heaves it’s self said let there be light, when an element that is not darkness but darker existed in the place of nothing & eliminated by light, or objective particles or light fractals we know as photons
Not to say Toby Fox episode base his game of such scientific claims, discoveries or theories I’m just sharing as much to say there is a greater form of darkness then the absence of light or what our brains interpret as sight Dark matter is a scientifically proven element & although a lot of the theories, claims, necessity & purpose of it are still very much unknown and rooted in speculation it’s not too far form reason to compare this to the idea Toby has created in his lore Also given string theory, many worlds theory & parallel universal theory which I know is just more room for further speculation but it can be hypothesized that there might just exist a universe as which matter annihilates when coming into contact with dark matter & what a world like such would be like I picture a lot of what was portrayed in the Deltarune Dark worlds(or at least their first encounters & leading imagery)as you the brain can’t really imagine nothing but the inverses or inverted light can be assumed of what a truly dark world would look like if humans evolved to live in it
Check my crazy idea for me? We have a time, and an event, that we know Des was there for. The four kids exploring the woods behind the graveyard together. Now, we KNOW that he's a little monster, and surely teased her, stories of him jumping out from behind things until Des HIT HIM for example, are well established. So surely this fun little outing had at least one dark, and bad, moment. Now, Des, surely, can use her instrument for more then just hitting misbehaving human boys. Add this all together, and you have Des, playing "Don't forget" to her little sister, to try to calm her down and get her to stop crying, so they can walk home. And it just happens to become a core memory for her. Viable?
I feel something that could use a bit improvement is the balance of music's volume to your voice's volume. It can be a bit difficult to hear you when the music is louder than you are.
For the future, I’d appreciate the music being quieter. I often found myself focusing on the music and completing it in my head which caused me to miss out on stuff you were saying. Could just be me tho
It pains me how few people realize that the angel is the player. I mean it's been practically confirmed twice. Though that said, there is a decent enough argument for Noelle being the angel, especially with Spamton Sweepstakes. However, the angel is definitely not some unknown being that we'll meet in the future.
Both can be true in some cases. I’m thinking the angel is both the player and other characters. the angel can only work its influence through Proxy and their can also be more then one proxy. we’ve seen hints of it with Noelle angel figure she made for her father. It’s featureless, like the discarded vessel. Plus then there’s the moment Kris first ripped out there heart; their standing on top of the circle of the deltarune, making it looks like theirs wings behind them.
@@alexburn4014 I actually have the same theory, I just didn't mention it because I didn't want this comment to be too long. If you say your name is the same as your vessel in the goner maker then it says "of course, of course. Of course they are the same." If you do multiple genocide runs Chara talks about how you 2 are not the same, as if that's a distinction that needs to be made. It's something that makes sense logically as well with how we talk about the player character in games. When you do something you could say the player character did it, and vice versa. It's also comparable to the Christian concept of the trinity. In the Bible the Father, Son, and Holy spirit are shown to be seperate people but are all referred to as God. Undertale and Deltarune definitely have some Christian imagery, so it's not that big of a stretch. If this is true it would explain some things, like why Flowey calls the player Chara at the end of true pacifist.
You know wonder why Everyman is considered strange in Undertale but not in Deltarune according to his sprite name. Also, he is from the true lab and is completely light as he is all white.
Well, the file name for the room for Entry Number Seventeen is literally 'Room_Gaster', soooo...not exactly leaving much to interpretation as to who the author is, even if 'him.png' wasn't enough.
This was a very cool video! Just wanted to add a small note: entry number 17 describes photon readings as negative. Darkness is simply the lack of photons our eyes are able to detect, or in other words, darkness is a lack of photons, zero. Negative photon readings should be impossible. This is no normal darkness entry 17 is studying, but something more all encompassing, a true void.
This is a great point! I should have mentioned it, as it's great evidence to point to how "advanced" this darkness is.
Oh, I forgot to mention as well (this might just be tangential), Ralsei calls himself the prince of darkness, but refers to his own land as a kingdom. I don't know if this means specifically that there is some greater power or darkness beyond Ralsei, but I just found it interesting that he does not refer to his realm as a principality, if he's truly the leader of it.
@@HeronHero Is the unnameable one the king of darkness?
A serpent indeed.
what if it could get darker than dark?
Dark (Lack of light in our world), Darker (The Darkness of an impure Dark Fountain), Yet Darker (Pure Darkness from a Grand Dark Fountain). That might be what E.#17 is talking about (unless there is a step beyond Pure Darkness somehow). Also when Ralsei said that opening a dark fountain would cause The Roaring it may have been because opening a Dark Fountain in a Dark World would create another Grand Fountain of Pure Darkness (Let's say it's 5× more powerful than a normal fountain for simplicity) Thus immediately overtaking the balance and ending the world. Also, has anyone else considered that there may be more Grand fountains out beyond the town? It might be weird for the only one to be in a school supply closet. (Also just how long has the Grand Fountain been there?) There's also something that has been bugging me, what happens when light extinguishes darkness and causes whatever the light version of the Roaring would be? (And is there a way to shift the balance without altering the number/purity of Dark fountains.) Sorry for the long, sporadic comment but I just wanted to get it out somewhere that was relevant.
Yo, thats wild that the game states "once upon a time, a LEGEND was whispered among shadows" and the legend about banishing the angels heaven was figuratively "whispered" (uploaded without fanfare in a strange font) "among shadows" (on an unknown website with a dark background and text) "once upon a time" (even before undertale's release)
You touching on the link between darkness, the secret bosses, and abandonment/obscurity tickled my brain a little. I'm gonna go full free-associative for a bit if that's okay.
The very first time anyone saw the phrase "don't forget" associated with UT/DR was the note patched into Sans's lab in Undertale- this patch being the first Undertale ever received and the same one that allowed Fun events to occur without save file modification (ie. everything to do with Gaster). The date this patch was released - January 2016- means that Toby would have had a clear picture of just how successful Undertale's launch was while preparing it. Or more to the point, it was the first content added to Undertale since Toby realized he'd be able to make Deltarune.
Deltarune, as a concept, predated Undertale but was ultimately scrapped and cannibalized by said project (possibly due to concerns of scope, but that's speculative). This, in a very literal sense, meant the abandonment of most of its story and characters to (as far as Toby would have known at the time) permanent obscurity. If we assume that W. D. Gaster isn't just a random Undertale easter egg that's been retconned into DR's story, but is in fact a major character from the original Deltarune that was retconned into an Undertale easter egg after the project was cancelled, it's very tempting to read a double meaning into Sans's note. Intradiegetic: "Don't forget Gaster". Extradiegetic: "Don't forget _Deltarune"_
If we go along with all this, we get Gaster as a potential figurehead/symbol/incarnation of what it means to abandon an idea, or a dream, or a creative work. To cut content. If Undertale flopped and Deltarune was never made, would that count as it's world being covered in darkness? To be clear: this question is not rhetorical, I literally don't know. This is just free-associative mode. But on at least a _vibes_ level this ties in with the pattern of secret bosses being hidden or abandoned , the Spade King resenting the Lightners for abandoning his people (ie. not lending them a place in their imaginative worlds), and Dess being mysteriously absent from both the physical world of Hometown the game's narrative after potentially having been lost in a mysterious dark place.
I know even less what to make of this last connection, but there's even a potential thematic parallel with Kris and Chara, the latter being (according to my speculation) a bizarro version of the original Deltarune protagonist now known as "Kris" who was violently edited-down and recontextualized as an Undertale character after Deltarune was scrapped, much in the same way Gaster may have been. I'm way out on a limb here, but it would at least lend Kris some metaphysical link to this through-line of abandonment/obscurity/material cut from a narrative.
The biggest unknown I'm still left with is how any of that ties into Ralsei, the prince of pure darkness itself, aside from Asriel literally being abandoned in a dark place at the end of Undertale. For any of this to make sense he has to be hiding something pretty big, but then again, who would that really surprise at this point?
Awesome analysis as always Andrew! I really should have touched on the mention of Don’t Forget in UT/DR. Gaster representing cut content really works from a diegetic perspective as well as Gaster is so tied to abandonment already.
Interesting free based crack co-, I mean free association thinking right there. I do wonder, if this abandoned content explored in narrative stuff can hold even a small candle in the finished story, how much of this was planned from the start. Are we getting the Deltarune that Toby was scribbling in Notepad text files in 2011 or the Deltarune that grew in the petri dish of Undertale's emergence? Likely to be explained in the Deltarune art book releasing in 2027.
The part about Deltarune being scrapped and therefore we can think of Gaster's role in Undertale coming from a result of that is such an eloquent idea of concepts known to every Deltarune enjoyer, though not one I've seen combined before. But it is also something I had only vague ideas about and could never put to words, not even now paraphrasing you, and I'm so glad I have a way to express the idea now.
And as stated both here and in the reply above, it's so interesting to think how the Deltarune we'll get is not necessarily the one imagined before Undertale, and to wonder how that has changed things. I mean don't we already know Toby planned for characters to be human in the Light world but monsters in the Dark world? All things considered, that could be only an incredibly minor aesthetic change, given all monster lore could have just been created for Undertale specifically. GOD I can't wait for this game.
...Now I have to wonder if Toby seemingly changing demeanor about Deltarune only having one ending could mean an ending that is what he originally dreamed years ago, and one that is made after years of having Deltarune scrapped in mind.
To add on to the abandonment/darkness/obscurity idea, could it be that Kris continues to make dark fountains as a way to keep us, the players, playing deltarune, as without any dark worlds to explore there's no reason for us to play, and if we don't play, don't observe the characters of deltarune, then they do not exist anymore
Hmmm the cycle self aware, consuming, conspiring into itself, where does it end, what choice comes before us.
It was a LEGEND of HOPE.
It was a LEGEND of DREAMS.
It was a LEGEND of LIGHT.
It was a LEGEND of DARK.
Dark is on the same side as dreams, Light is on the same side as Hope. I think these are the meanings of light and darkness.
In the Asriel fight, the Hope act is "You held on to your hopes... " so to speak, so Hope is the ability to hold on, to persist, it reduces the amount of damage you take. Hopes prevent you from losing.
The Dreams act is "You think about why you're here now..." Dreaming could be interpreted as why you keep going. Dreaming spawns an item in your inventory that restores your HP. Dreams remind you to persist.
I think that dreams without hope are fleeting, and hope without dreams is directionless.
In the roaring prophecy, the darkners turn to stone, and the lightners are doomed to wander in darkness for eternity. I think this represents losing sight of dreams among a sea of them or being unable to fulfill any of them because you can't choose or hope for one.
In don't forget, the light is running low, the places that you know seem like fantasy, but there's a light inside your soul. fantasy is largely irrelevant to reality. I think this represents a choice between finding that hope and reasserting reality or giving up hope and letting fleeting dreams replace reality.
And when dreams replace reality, the world falls to darkness.
But when we live without our dreams.
What are we then?
Deltarune video with Pokémon Mystery Dungeon music? 10/10 combo
I feel like people miss something about "photon readings negative" a lot: this is *impossible.* The phrase 'photin readings negative' implies not just an absence of light (what darkness actually is) but the *presence* of UN-light. Photon readings ZERO is absolute darkness, negative is nonsensical.
I'm *pretty* sure this is just a sort of clever joke line, but it also kind of falls in line with how there seem to be like.. lamps that shoot beams of darkness in the dark world. As if dark were a *thing* on its own and not just the lack of a thing.
Well, look at how the dark fountains affect the places they're made in. Specifically when you open the door to their room.
It makes the room dim, and it seems to pulsate at the door specifically.
If positive photon readings mean something is creating light...
Wouldn't negative photon readings mean something is absorbing it?
Like how the dark fountains seemed to absorb the light of the surrounding area when the doors to them open?
Its the inverse form of light. Aka the antimatter version of light.
They're anti-photons that when merged with regular Photons create darkness (absence of light). But are there anti-eyes to see emanating anti-light in absence of light?
I feel that darkness is a metaphor for the subconscious. The Dark World and the Darkners who inhabit them can be said to have a dream like vibe to them. Plus, they can very much play the role of the Juengian shadow representing the parts of the characters' self that they choose to repress. In the Snowgrave route, multiple references are made to "waking up" and "sleeping." Which would make sense since dreams are often seen as manifestations of our subconscious. It fits with the themes of escapism since the subconscious is responsible for things like impulse control, desire, hopes, and dreams.
And if darkness represents the subconscious, then by that logic, light is a stand in for the conscious mind. It would be things like logic, thought, and awareness. The angel strikes me as an alien being focused on logic, discipline, and hierarchy. There's no hard evidence for that it's just the vibe I get.
It makes sense why you'd want to balance the two. A world a total darkness would be a world ruled by Id, where we'd never be able to process our hang-ups or solve our problems. But a world of light would be a world without hopes and dreams, the things that give us the determination to imagine and build a better world.
Obviously, since we're only two chapters in, I could easily be proven wrong. But, where the story is right now, that's how I've come to interpret darkness and light.
you put all my messy ideas into a cohesive and understandable text
@@deretti347 Thanks 😊
"Close your eyes and see...". Darkness can facilitate imagination- monsters in the closet and under the bed, the excitement and mystery of basements and attics, and, of course, dreams at night.
There are so many comparisons to fiction I could make. You can connect with friends through fiction- like the Lightner kids are doing in Dark Worlds- fiction can change you as a person, like Dark World adventures change them (most prominent with Susie), fiction can be harmful or helpful, its shape depends on the will of its creator, etc.
Dark worlds as fantasy/imagination/escapism, and the Roaring as a total disconnect from reality/living in an imaginary world/ignoring your actual life make a lot of sense to me.
Roaring is also what a Titan would sound like if they were to scream... in pain. Reality being pain.
@@Fragmentsinfractals488 Well, it's the Roaring *Knight* , but yeah, it fits- the Knight (the one creating most fountains) wants to get away from reality.
Nice use of Michael as an example of a more vengeful angel, given that ol Mike there is the knight-captain who leads the angels during the battles on earth in the apocalypse
I'm glad someone picked up on it! Love me some symbolism
Great video!
Just one small connection, Entry Number 17 is called "Room_Gaster" in the files so it's pretty much confirmed
That stood out to me too
Yeah I was gonna comment that but then went to check if anyone else had pointed it out
Thank you for mentioning how the Dark Fountain in Castle Town is different from the others, because it definitely explains what Ralsei can do if all other dark fountains come from the one he came from
Just wanna say, you made a very good theory. It's interesting as to how the darkness would work later in the future, and how there are different meanings for it.
I think there's an aspect to this dichotomy of light and dark that tends to be overlooked by most who talk about it in the community. That aspect being the diagetic nature of darkness. When you take a look at Undertale and other works by Toby Fox such as Skies Forever Blue, you can see that he has a large investment in exploring the relationship between the player and the game. Kris so far has been our call-out for that. Darkness can be regarded as fiction, abstraction, nonexistence and suspension of disbelief. This would explain why gaster and dess are such elusive characters. To be succumbed to the darkness is to fall into the literal depths of unreality and unknowing. Don't Forget also supports this, as the "light inside your soul" can be the will of the player itself being expressed through the soul. Think about Toby's intentions when it comes to deconstructing game mechanics. He wants you to care for these fictional entities, and he does a great job at it. Think of his other works and how he's asked the question "Where do they go when you don't play it anymore?". Well the processes halt, the screen stops displaying its reality, and for all intents and purposes, it's returned to the world of fiction. It's succumbed to darkness. Many people wonder the motives of Kris, especially after the fountain. But if Kris is aware of the player, and the player, a being literally superior above everything else in Deltarune, is responsible for keeping everything loaded, then Kris may feel the obligation to keep it entertained and enticed that it may come back and shine the light of reality on their world.
I really hope this is a correct assessment of a facet of light and dark. As it gives a lot more leverage and weight to the whole concept of balancing the two forces. We may get to see what kinds of absurd distortions of reality may come if it falls out of balance.
(Also the player is literally above everything where the sun ought to be. As if the player may be an angel observing the entire game and conducting it's will through Kris. Banishing the angels heaven may literally just be the end of the game. That one destined ending that technically must always happen.)
13:26 "Now, I haven't done a three hour long video on what the shadow crystals are"
You've either watched that video and know it or you don't
that was very cool!!
Loved this essay. You were able to extract a pretty good amount of meaning out of a lore element that, although omnipresent and a universal force, is slowly being explored and expanded upon by the narrative and metanarrative. The first step in understanding Darkness is realizing it is escapism, fantasy, and adventure. The second step is likely much darker. What is that going to mean? There might be a curve ball around the corner that is currently not predictable by what we know. Just something to chew on in the mean time. Can't wait for the next one!
the entry number 17 room literally has gaster in the room name. also balance implies that both are important and, more importantly for the prophecy, in regard to the angel's heaven, *too much of either can be a bad thing* which means *too much light could be just as bad as too much darkness*
I hope you keep this up, it's wonderful to have voices like yours reminding us of this stuff. Because yeah, it's difficult to separate the portrayal of literal darkness from the portrayal of emotional darkness in the game. Though, as always, that has interesting implications for the Snowgrave/Weird route. There is a tremendous amount of darkness in Noelle, as seen by her timidness and her many statements about her mom, and in the Weird route, we add to that immensely. Perhaps this is the darkness the Angel is sourced from in the climax? I'm firmly convinced of Noelle either being the Angel herself or having the capacity to create the angel during the climax of the prophecy, assuming it's truthful. The whole problem being, aside from us generically resembling the trio of the prophecy, we haven't seen any of its claims come true yet.
About the angel; It's pretty likely that the angel is an force of darkness, as you were saying. We obviously don't know anything about what specifically the "angel's heaven" is but we know it's some sort of fountain/dark world for sure, something with a clear connection with escapism. We know that only lightners can make dark fountains from Queen's monologue, so it seems like the Angel is a being of light (aka a lightner), just one who's making dark worlds to bring about whatever their version of "heaven" is. Making the Angel a lightner would still subvert the idea of the angel as a heavenly being of light, since though they do fit that description to the darkners, to the lightners they're just an ordinary person.
The angel being a lightner would also tie into common imagery of angels as descending from a higher plane to a lower one, usually to give something to or guide those below. This idea fits with both Deltarune's angel as the creator of a fountain/dark world (being a godlike being to the darkners, which gave them a world to live in) and Asriel as undertale's angel being an incredibly powerful entity who would appear from a seemingly impossible place to free the monsters from the underground.
As for who the angel may or may not be, there really aren't a ton of concrete things to go off of other than vibes. I'd personally put my guess to Noelle, though. Toby seems to be consistently connecting Noelle and the angel, with tons of allusions throughout the script; Her dark world appearance, association with the light world's church, desire to "grow big angel wings and fly", those craft angels she and Dess made, Noelle's above-curve power level (decently so in the regular route and terrifyingly so in the weird route), etc. Noelle, like the rest of the main cast of lightners, knows about how to make fountains and has at least considered it before, and there are currently a lot of loose plot threads that she's related to and will play parts in (Dess's disappearance and the rift between the Hollidays and the Dreemurs, Rudy's failing health, Noelle's mom, the inevitable Susie/Noelle relationship).
I think that covering the fact the Seam warns you about getting home before it gets dark seems like a big hint
good video
11:15 I think something that could also be possible is that the other fountains contain in some way the will of the Lightner that made it.
Queen says, 'Coursing Its Will Into The Blade' or something along the lines of that, talking about The Knight creating a fountain.
If the will to create a fountain is coursed into the blade, maybe it 'taints' the fountain created, and the Kingdom of Darkness does not have the will of a Lightner creator in its fountain. That's why any Darkner can live in Castle Town, and Ralsei can be in any Dark World without being turned to stone - though I've seen some other interesting theories about a Darker conforming to the world to avoid turning into stone.
24:50 i really think the angel is the person controlling the vessel/player and that the angel's heaven is merely a metatext definition of our (us, the people playing the game) reality, a heaven/paradise where we arent controlled by plot devices and video game mechanics. we are quite literally controlling (even if we dont have a choice in this story--or we do, according to Ralsei) from above. banishing the angel's heaven from having control over the story of this world of characters who want to be unaffected by a player's unknowable motives ( if we Can do something in a video game, be it good or bad, eventually it happens because we 'have to' explore a world to its limits, because its just a game... right?)
this is more so bolstered--yet it comes from undertale, which i only bring up for comparing the double entendre of what the angel could be referring to, because UT/DR should be treated separately, that an undertale prophecy stated that an angel would come from above and the underground would be emptied (be it murdering or destroying the barrier). while frisk is quite literally "from above." we the player, playing undertale, come from a plane above the confines of the game's universe. but both undertale and deltarune utilizing the same deconstruction of video game meta in the same fashion could be rehashed?? which maybe toby wouldnt want to use the same "twist" twice, yet deltarune being conceived of before undertale could mean that the idea was rehashed for undertale after deltarune was put on the backburner at the time.
Regarding the comments towards the end about banishing the Angel's Heaven, and how the game seems to question the interpretation of light=good, dark=bad -- or vice-versa:
I seriously urge all you Deltarune theorists out there to check out the Book of Revelation from the Bible. No, seriously.
The entire story of the game seems to be one gigantic allusion to the story of that book.
Direct comparisons can be made, here are some:
- The book of revelation is a story about prophetic visions, centering around the apocalypse, i.e. rapture, where heaven brings upon the destruction of old earth and old heaven, destroying the non-believers and creating a new paradise.
> Deltarune is a story about a prophecy centering around the Roaring, where the Angel's Heaven aims to fill the world with darkness, turning Darkners to stone in the process. The Lightners, who are able to initiate the roaring, end up wanting to do so because of how much they enjoy their adventures there. Most importantly, Ralsei even uses the exact biblical term to deter the heroes at the end of the roaring cutscene: "Is that your idea of paradise?"
- The book of revelation features two main opposing parties. On the side of heaven, we have the lamb (Jesus Christ), who is responsible for opening the 7 seals that initiate the apocalypse, as well as numerous angels who aid him.
> In Deltarune, on the side of Angel's Heaven, we have the Roaring Knight who is responsible for opening at least 2 of the fountains, as well as the Lightners, who can also aid him by opening dark fountains themselves.
- On the side of hell, we have 4 distinctly identified characters in the bible. These are the dragon (aka. Satan), the Beast of the Sea, the Beast of the Earth, and the Harlot.
> Opposing the Angel's Heaven, in Deltarune we have the 3 heroes of legend, who are at various points throughout the game referred to in Satanic terms:
----> Ralsei is referred to as the Prince of Darkness, literally takes the form of a goat, as does Satan in popular imagery.
----> Kris is referred to as Lightbringer, has glowing red eyes, acted weird and creepy in the past, has partaken in demonic summoning with Catti and has interest in the Occult.
----> Susie is generally seen as evil by everyone in Hometown, has the form of a dragon (presumably).
> As such, it seems clear that the Heroes of the Deltarune prophecy are in some way representative of biblical hell.
- The commonly known association of the number 666 to the devil originates from the book of revelation. It is also known as "the mark", the number of the beast, or "the number of a man".
> 666 is the number most commonly associated with Gaster in both Undertale and Deltarune. In the egg rooms, he is referred to as "a man" and he is associated with other characters that hold demonic imagery -- Jevil most obviously, but also Spamton, who seems to make a deal with the devil. The imagery of receiving the egg from the tree is also reminiscent of the forbidden fruit (i.e. original sin).
> Moreover, 6 is representative of being flawed and imperfect -- while 7 represents perfection. 7 human souls are required to break the barrier in Undertale, and there are 7 chapters in Deltarune. 7 is the most common number in the book of revelation.
You can do many speculations using the contents of the biblical story, but from an analytical standpoint, these are obvious and almost certainly intentional parallels.
Moreover, Toby Fox was in a church youth group, which his pastor confirmed on Twitter. He certainly does know these biblical stories.
Someone need to count how many times "dark" is said in this video
Hey hey every! Welcome aboard, lets make this woman FAMOUS
But isn't the Entry Number 17 Room LITERALLY called Room_Gaster?!
This might be a hot take, but I actually like Deltarune a lot more than Undertale
3:22
NOW this is one of my favorite Gasters voices.
The darkness & light remind me of Zekrom & Reshiram & their connection to truth & ideals.
& since Toby works for Pokémon now, I think it’s intentional.
The unnameable one shall bring forth the original dragon; the angel’s heaven.
Hope you enjoyed my use of Undella Town as a nod to it. Ideals vs truth!
As a huge Black and White fan (God dangit game freak put ingo back in the subway-)
That hit me like a truck
12:20
The interesting thing I've just realized with the image, which is probably obvious(but i still feel like mentioning) is that the first chair image has a light focused on it's center, but the second chair sort of has a *dark* focused on the center. Or rather there is darkness focused in the center of the chair, functioning like the opposite of a light.
This also works with the whole "negative photons" comment from entry 17!
Almost at the end, paused to just say - this was very interesting to watch. You've done a good job!
Very interesting video, I like how many plot and character details can be extracted from Tobi's games that are not explicitly stated.
Ps: As proof that I watched the whole thing, I respect the music at the end, my favorite gen 5 track
For some reason I remembered the works of Carl Jung. With this whole topic about the Conscious, Unconscious, Collective Unconscious, the topic with internal archetypes, like the same Shadow archetype, and much more. Quite an interesting video, thanks.
i like how you use quotes as titles for sections of your videos, love little details like that
Thanks, you’re the first person to notice that! It’s a fun little thing I enjoy playing around with.
Excellent video, one I've been meaning to watch for a while. I love analyses of Deltarune!
love your videos! also the explorers of sky music REALLY fits deltarune lmao x3
I really liked the video. It was nice to see people talking abt the thematic bits about the darkness in undertale / deltarune cus I personally thinks it's really cool.
I also I lijed your editing style. It was nice :D
I think imagination is a critical part of darkness. What do you do in the dark? You dream. And how do you skip to the dark world in chapter 2? You sleep. What's to say the entirety of chapter 2 isn't all a dream from the second Kris falls asleep from either their room or desk in class?
And what if darkness is imagination, then the opposite, light would be reality. The truth, concrete reality, and logic itself. Where magic doesnt exist, the sick don't miraculously recover, and "your choices don't matter."
You can do that "skip to the dark world by sleeping in Kris bed" in chapter 1 too.
On that same note, I think it's just there to make life easier for speedrunner.
@@mr.g9761 it IS to make life easier for speedrunning but there's some sort of explanation to it as well. there's gotta be. i don't know what it is but there's definitely SOMETHING to the connection between dreaming, dark worlds and going to sleep to get to one
chapter 2 being a dream would be pretty weird with berdly keeping his injuries and kris keeping noelles watch (if you equipt it on them)
Something people analyzing Entry 17 don't seem to touch on is that "Photon readings negative" doesn't necessarily mean "bro there are ANTI-photons omg". In this context, when measuring for the presence or absence of something, "negative" means "it is not present." Imagine the test is asking the question, "are there photons?" and the result is "no", "negatory", "negative".
That said, since this is a video game in which there are "dark bulbs", "dark worlds", and whatnot, it could absolutely be referring to some sort of quantized unit of darkness. Just want to point out that in basically any other context, "photon readings negative" would mean "there are no photons".
really good video and discussion about deltarunes themes!!
Very well-researched and engaging video, good job!
yoo this video is so cool
underrated video this was very thorough and cool
cant wait for the gaster vid
I love these sorts of videos. metaphorical and philosophical discussion always gets me interested.
hey neat tid bit that i just thought about.
in don't forget in this line 'There's a light inside your soul That's still shining in the cold with the truth', it mentions that the light shines the truth. and the line before is this 'and the shadows start to grow And the places that you know seem like fantasy' and it mentions that the darkness make things like fantasy similarly to how dark fountains function, dark fountains makes fantasize versions of the light world, a fake versions of it, a lie, a dream.
so from what we gathered light is basically the truth, the real thing like the light world/real world, and darkness is a lie, a fantasy similar to the dark world
Nice use of the pmd music :)
oh hey, i was wondering if you would make another deltarune video, this is a real treat!! ive been inspired by you and others in this community to give my own theory a go, about how maluable the interpretation of the prophecies seen in undertale and deltarune are, but since i cant edit that well, im going to try and use physical props and diagrams to get my own thoughts across :) its school and uni holidays in australia right now, so i though i would try and do something fun. Thank you so much!
ooh, that sounds really cool
Btw the room that entry 17 takes place in is called room_Gaster in the files, which is how we know it’s written by him
My interpretation would be that light is the real world and darkness is escapism/imagination. Neither are good or bad, but a lack of balance between the two can lead to disastrous consequences. So far most antagonists have been about the dangers of darkness, but we may see the other side of the coin in the future. Might even be that the roaring can not only be caused by having too many fountains open but also by having them all shut down.
I agree that the angel is probably an agent of darkness, as you said. There's not much information on what exactly the "Angel's Heaven" is, but it's pretty clear that it's a dark fountain. This means that whoever the angel is (or whoever ends up filling the prophetic role of the angel, if you want to think of it that way) is going to make a fountain to bring about their idea of "heaven", likely whatever's within that specific dark world. Considering only lightners can make dark fountains according to Queen's speech, it's clear that the angel is a being of light (aka a lightner). This would still subvert the idea of the angel as a heavenly body: While the angel does appear heavenly, even godlike, to the darkners, literally creating them from inanimate objects, they're just an ordinary person from a lightner's perspective.
The angel being a lightner who makes a dark fountain lines up with ordinary imagery of angels as divine beings who descend from the heavens to give gifts or guidance. This is true in the context of Deltarune's angel, who from the perspective of the darkners, a lightner would fit the bill perfectly. It's also true for Undertale's angel, Asriel, an incredibly powerful being or royal lineage who has seen the surface and will free the monsters from the underground.
In terms of who the angel actually could be, there's not much to go off of other than vibes but I'd put my money on Noelle. Toby's been repeatedly connecting her with the angel, between her own dialogue about "wanting to grow angel wings and fly", the little snow angels she and Dess made, her affiliation with the angel-centric church in the light world, Her dark world outfit looking like angel's robes, Spamton explicitly calling her the angel, etc. She's shown to be stronger than the average party member in both routes, terrifyingly so in the weird route, and she both knows how to make a fountain and considered doing so at the end of chapter two. There's also a lot of reason to keep Noelle relevant since there's a bunch of unresolved plot threads that she's intertwined with (Rudy's failing health, Dess's disappearance, the gulf between the Hollidays and the Dreemurs, Noelle's mother, her relationship with Susie, etc.) Noelle as an antagonist also has a lot of potential for drama, since Noelle/Kris/Susie all know each other well and probably wouldn't particularly want to fight, even if their paths do cross eventually.
The way Sans, Papyrus and W.D. are named after fonts really makes the connection between them and gaster stronger, maybe they all come from the same place that Sans talks about... also similar to typing quirks in Homestuck. Probably has been said before lol
Good theorizing! I think there's also a lot of interesting connection between darkness and dark worlds and dreams (a la hopes & dreams).
One note: Seam uses they/them pronouns (per Toby)
Darkness seems to be an analogue for stories/fiction.
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Loved this video !! This video is like a light shining through the darkness of my lack of knowledge of this game (since I’ve only played chapter one yet aheehee)
love the vids queen keep it up
15:30 yeah but spamton only really becomes powerful after getting the neo body
Great video! I dunno exactly how this'd fit into the video, but Queen also says in the Snowgrave route "Wake? No, She [Noelle] Has Already Awakened Too Much Let Her Close Her Eyes And Sleep Away Into A Darker, Darker Dream. Thought it was worth mentioning, since it literally says the darker darker dream stuff like gaster does.
Also gentle reminder, but Seam seems to use they/them pronouns.
random thing about entry 17- but why couldn't it have been 18 instead? 18 is the sum of three sixes, 666 is 18 fractured, split up. that would been cool idk, just had thought.
I think she’s right in most of the analysis
Yes!! So happy you've uploaded more content. I hope we see more uploads as 2023 goes on, you're an amazing creator :)
THIS SHIT IS JUST THE VOID ASPECT FROM HOMESTUCK
It is also like the Darkness in Kingdom Hearts.
I love the video! Could you possibly turn the music volume down in the background? The music in the last section was loud and distracting for me and I couldn’t process what you were saying in that part
The intro song reminds me of BottomsUp Bay from Fossil Fighters 1, I presume that Pokemon Game is also for DS.
I would ADORE a susie analysis
you definitely know this by now but i'm pretty sure the reason people think entry 17 is from gaster is because the room is literally named room_gaster
Then what about the darkness totem (Undertale) and the shadow bulb (Deltarune ch2)
great theory and video overall.
tho i have a complaint, the background music is too loud
this was an absolutely wonderful video!
*subscribes and sets camp for next video*
I better make smores ~
To understand darkness you need take into account the darkest place in our existence, the solar system
A black hole is substantially darker then other parts of an already perfectly black space due to its ability to absorb everything in its surrounding area into its singularity including photon partials emitted form any source of light
However this is done only via a perfectly unbreakable gravitational force not the darkness it’s self or absence of light, in fact the mere perfect darkness as well as gravitational readings are how we even spot or detect active black holes
But this doesn’t explain a negative photon reading or growing darkness just absence of light or photons that can which enter an object then the perception of our eye or observation tool
Enter dark matter, not the FF material or stone we know so well in video games but an actual discovered element that consist of the separation of light matter
I know it was only able to be observed in a controlled unit consisting of nothing but magnetic energy creating a gravitational vortex to hold it because if it came into contact with any matter what so ever then it would immediately annihilate on contact
Scientist actually dub the phrase annihilation when this effect occurs as it doesn’t cause any ramifications apart form completely seizing to exist with no traces of its existence
So far scientist have only the technology & power sources capable of generating a single dark particle known as dark matter but it has been theorized that dark matter exist in our universe in mass & this in turn could explain why and how the universe is ever expanding given time/space goes hand in hand, and not only that but the creation of matter of any sort would immediately cause the dark matter to annihilate or seize to exist as matter would have taken its place
This does explain expanding darkness, a tangible form of darkness & even darkness that is not determined by light or the absence of light, more like a time before the heaves it’s self said let there be light, when an element that is not darkness but darker existed in the place of nothing & eliminated by light, or objective particles or light fractals we know as photons
Not to say Toby Fox episode base his game of such scientific claims, discoveries or theories I’m just sharing as much to say there is a greater form of darkness then the absence of light or what our brains interpret as sight
Dark matter is a scientifically proven element & although a lot of the theories, claims, necessity & purpose of it are still very much unknown and rooted in speculation it’s not too far form reason to compare this to the idea Toby has created in his lore
Also given string theory, many worlds theory & parallel universal theory which I know is just more room for further speculation but it can be hypothesized that there might just exist a universe as which matter annihilates when coming into contact with dark matter & what a world like such would be like
I picture a lot of what was portrayed in the Deltarune Dark worlds(or at least their first encounters & leading imagery)as you the brain can’t really imagine nothing but the inverses or inverted light can be assumed of what a truly dark world would look like if humans evolved to live in it
My bad it’s a lot😅topics like such aren’t easy to summarize but your video essay really got me thinking
Check my crazy idea for me?
We have a time, and an event, that we know Des was there for.
The four kids exploring the woods behind the graveyard together.
Now, we KNOW that he's a little monster, and surely teased her, stories of him jumping out from behind things until Des HIT HIM for example, are well established.
So surely this fun little outing had at least one dark, and bad, moment.
Now, Des, surely, can use her instrument for more then just hitting misbehaving human boys.
Add this all together, and you have Des, playing "Don't forget" to her little sister, to try to calm her down and get her to stop crying, so they can walk home.
And it just happens to become a core memory for her.
Viable?
Great video! I think you're onto something :)
good vid
Bom vídeo 👍
I feel something that could use a bit improvement is the balance of music's volume to your voice's volume. It can be a bit difficult to hear you when the music is louder than you are.
Agreed. Loved the video otherwise
Loved the video, just wished the music was a little quieter.
Good thing we got subtitles
I think the music is too loud
For the future, I’d appreciate the music being quieter. I often found myself focusing on the music and completing it in my head which caused me to miss out on stuff you were saying. Could just be me tho
Yepp agreed
The light inside souls is determination, right?
The music needs to be lowered a smidge, I can barely hear you!
just a tip, the music some times is too loud, and it's hard to hear what you're saying. But other than that, it was a nice video! 😃👍
I was having a bit of difficulty balancing it, sorry about that!
26:24 please don’t be lol
Criminally underrated channel
It pains me how few people realize that the angel is the player. I mean it's been practically confirmed twice. Though that said, there is a decent enough argument for Noelle being the angel, especially with Spamton Sweepstakes. However, the angel is definitely not some unknown being that we'll meet in the future.
Both can be true in some cases. I’m thinking the angel is both the player and other characters. the angel can only work its influence through Proxy and their can also be more then one proxy. we’ve seen hints of it with Noelle angel figure she made for her father. It’s featureless, like the discarded vessel. Plus then there’s the moment Kris first ripped out there heart; their standing on top of the circle of the deltarune, making it looks like theirs wings behind them.
@@alexburn4014 I actually have the same theory, I just didn't mention it because I didn't want this comment to be too long.
If you say your name is the same as your vessel in the goner maker then it says "of course, of course. Of course they are the same." If you do multiple genocide runs Chara talks about how you 2 are not the same, as if that's a distinction that needs to be made.
It's something that makes sense logically as well with how we talk about the player character in games. When you do something you could say the player character did it, and vice versa.
It's also comparable to the Christian concept of the trinity. In the Bible the Father, Son, and Holy spirit are shown to be seperate people but are all referred to as God. Undertale and Deltarune definitely have some Christian imagery, so it's not that big of a stretch.
If this is true it would explain some things, like why Flowey calls the player Chara at the end of true pacifist.
I'm confused, what does this have to do with Donald Duck and Sephiroth?
You know wonder why Everyman is considered strange in Undertale but not in Deltarune according to his sprite name. Also, he is from the true lab and is completely light as he is all white.
Epic
Off topic, but I keep thinking of Kingdom Hearts whenever I hear the word darkness in repetition.
Lore of A Thematic Analysis of Darkness in Deltarune momentum 100
Most people think "what do you two think?" has to do with sans and papyrus but what if it had to do with frisk and chara?
Well, the file name for the room for Entry Number Seventeen is literally 'Room_Gaster', soooo...not exactly leaving much to interpretation as to who the author is, even if 'him.png' wasn't enough.