I made a Rail Anvil in the fall of 1969 in High School Machine Shop. I heated it to between yellow and white color, then buried it in lime for three days. Machined the anvil, then hardened and tempered the anvil. One quench in oil one in water. I gave it to my father in law for Christmas that year. He used it for 30 years in the body shop. When he passed the anvil was returned to me. I still have that anvil, and it looks no worse for wear, and still rings like a bell.
Sounds good. I recently checked. Rail steel is not just high manganese but also has a good bit of carbon. Modern stuff basically 40-80 points with 40-60 being sidelines and 60-80 mainlines and high speed in the German standards for example. Some standards even allow 85 points....good steel. Can't wait to get my hands on some modern track cutoffs :P
I retired after a 41 year career in the mechanical department of a major railroad, and I can tell you that there is a staggering amount to know about rail! What’s out there on the railroad mainlines of today is a very specialized product. If you go back in rail history to, say, 1950, most rolling stock weighed in the 50 to 70 ton range. The passage of railcars of this weight work hardened the rail fairly quickly, and that rail resisted wear fairly well. Over the decades, as car design and the desire to move more freight per car grew, those 50-70 ton cars were slowly replaced, and by the 90’s nearly all railcars were 100 tons or greater! It became obvious that a bad side effect of all this extra weight was excessive wear on new rail that often manifested itself by mushrooming the top of the rail, commonly called the “ball”! Modern locomotives often exceed 410,000 lbs, and that’s without fuel, which they hold 5,000 gallons of! Another factor, mentioned in several comments, was the obvious use of an acetylene torch to cut the rail. Many years ago the Federal Railroad Administration, or FRA, banned the use of oxy-fuel torches for cutting rail because of the severe molecular changes the intense heat caused within the rail! Two cycle abrasive disc saws are the preferred weapon nowadays!
Thanks Roy. No real surprise, I have noticed some dings over time, but I’m not doing any heavy smith work. So since it works for me, is on a stand the perfect height for me, and came directly from the guy repairing and straightening and repairing the track, on site, it was also Free! Nice to have some confirmation. Thanks again.
I agree with Bart W. I have had a couple of rail chunks. My favorite, was the 'used' rail. It was work hardened, and gave a fair rebound. My second chunk, acquired from a friend that worked for the railroad, was new track, and definitely softer. A cheap ballpein, would ding the face, at a half force blow.
Modern railroad track is high manganese steel; which means it work hardens a LOT. Makes sense too, as driving trains over it will harden the surface; while the bottom remains springy. If you wanna use them as anvils; get the matching fish plates, and weld those in. This will help a lot in rigidity as the core can flex. also more mass. Those parts of track look like ancient history.
@@puppygadget3189 They're splice bars that fit into the sides of the rails typically used to join two sections of track. Welding them in like Bart says will add substantially more mass under the hammer. I've actually got my piece of steel track set up to stand on end and use it as a small post anvil for some knife work with the center and "bottom" flange ground to different radii to use for bending.
Having worked for a railroad for 47 years, I can say that you will find no modern rail as scrap. Having said that, you may get lucky and find a piece of manganese rail that was cut out to destress. They use the rail for years and years. It was all mild steel. If a person could find some head hardened rail, that would be best. It's pretty rare, since it is expensive and gets used in troublesome curves, only. However, one can hard surface the mild steel rail then grind it flat, with pretty good results. Joint bars will help with the mass.
I used to work at a rail welding plant. We would cut the old bolt ends off in preparation for welding 1/4 mile strings of rail. No bolts. We had gondola cars full of the cut offs . Every friend, relative or acquaintance I had now owns a rail anvil. I still have 5. Steel production dates are stamped in the metal.
Thanks for the video. I used your video and the one you did on the 66 lb. anvil from eBay to make my decision. Currently have a railroad track anvil, just ordered the new one. Thank you for taking the time to do this, it helped a lot in my decision making process.
Another great video. I’ve been watching this series but have waited until now to write a comment. This series is very informative for those of us interested in smithing even if they’re geared toward beginning smiths. I’ve subscribed to your channel and have recommended it to several friends. Keep up the good work.
I was given a piece of rail and I love it. Also was given half a hinge pin from a Cat mining truck. Both are great, and I still haven't bought an anvil.
The important thing about anvils, are that they need mass to be effective. That's why anvils are heavy. The mass pushes back against the work (as well as absorbing vibration), instead of just transferring energy into vibration. Railroad track anvils do have their place for light work though.
that's something most people don't seem to realise, those tracks are best used upside down! there's no hardness difference using that big flat it's just a huge waste otherwise. if you've got one piece turn it upside down!
I work for a heritage railway and made an anvil from track. I upturned so the base is the flat surface this then sits on timber and fixed at either end with a welded plate. It works both well, has minimal noise and absorbs minimal force.
Good Stuff Roy, I would agree with Bart, newer rail is extremely hard and becomes work hardened as tens of thousands of rail cars pound the surface until it’s replaced. Being said tracks are not replaced due to age but due to wear or breaks. I have a few pieces of newer 130 pound mainline track I tested with the same files and all pieces came between 60-65 Rockwell (C), the 60 skated across like glass and the 65 just started to scratch the surface. This being said I don’t believe torch or abrasive cutting of the track changes its hardness much as I tested a portion at a weld, and most mainline tracks are welded together using thermite welders which I’m sure gets it pretty hot. All this being said if you’re going to use a track as a anvil try to find a heavier gauge 130ish. And if you’re wondering how they come up with rail sizes and weight it’s based on how much a yard of the rail weighs. A yard of freight mainline track weighs on average 130 pounds. Much lighter rail 75 pound is found mostly in yards and not very common these days.
Nice test, I have 2 track anvils and have a rebound test showing the differences on my channel, both of mine are new high speed rail which I was provided a spec sheet with and show 0.7% carbon and high manganese and silicon. My used double has hardened considerably and both chewed up and spat out tungsten tips on the milling machine. They are weak and noisy without the web supported or filled in. 👍 Still thankyou for showing even if it does not correspond with what I have at home 😃
Not all track is the same. I remember reading that the larger the track the higher carbon content and one key thing to remember is that is work hardens. I've got a piece about 5' long that weighs around 200 pounds and has really mushroomed edges that skates chainsaw files like they're nothing. Skates them better than my Brooks anvil in fact.
That is really impressive. I recently purchased some railroad track from 1949 and I noticed the mushroom effect but these are more on one side than the other. It looks like the tracks I got are at least 7 in tall and they are very heavy duty. I also have some smaller 5-in track that I have come across and it has the same mushroom effect but more on one side. I will be testing them as soon as my tester comes in.
I used a 2 foot piece of track and an inch and one half chisel to break logging chain. It did exactly what I wanted for 40 years... I will say the hardened chisel made a mess of the top surface of the track. If it got too bad I would grind it smooth with a 7 inch disc grinder and start again... The track was given to me by a friend and really proved best tool for what I used it.
A friend of mine gave me a piece of track, I reckon I'll beat on it some with a harbor freight hammer 🤷♂️ I have no clue what I'm doing.... I'm about as green as a sailor from Nebraska 🤣
@@bashpr0mpt719 Seen a few people get that treatment it's half the reason i barely comment and given the name of his ironworks it gives us Christians a bad name we ain't all like that
Man that soft track has been well traveled from 7’ deep in Eastern Pa to Texas to Michigan lol. Roy I sold that track to Daniel in September at quadstate lol
Not wanting the train track to be brittle makes perfect sense. My question is, can the steel track be hardened more than it is? It would be interesting you you to heat it, quench it and retest it.
That’s exactly what I was wondering. I have a 3’ section that was given to me by a family member who works for BNSF and I would really like to know if I can harden it or maybe even attach a piece of maybe AR plate which is a 65 on the Rockwell scale?
If you're going to buy a cheap cast iron anvil, you should consider buying some (fairly) cheap hard surfacing rod and fixing the top of the anvil to be as hard as you desire. It's easy to hard surface, more of a pain to make it flat again, but if you do the anvil will outlast your children. I've been using two now for around forty years.
Believe me when I say old rail like that is much softer than modern rail. I cut rail working for the railroad for 40 years and cut rail dated all the way from the 1880s to 2018 rail when I retired. All rails have the year of manufacture on them. Modern "head hardened" rail eats a blade after a few cuts and old rail is like you said "butter" and one blade will last quite a while.
My friend from Mexico he have Rail Anvil he does a amazing jobs with it's he have customers that love his jobs with a small a hammer and torch he does a lot of jobs he does that's awesome job
I forged many Christmas gifts two years ago on a track anvil. I made a few hardy tools for it as well. Compared to my Peter Wright there is none. I only used it to prove to myself that its not the tool its the Smith; sound familiar? A missed hammer swing dented it pretty good. Thanks for all you do Brother
If you look around, you may find a local company that deals in used rail. You may have to buy a whole section, but you could always have it cut into smaller pieces and sell them off yourself to other buyers. Places like RJ Corman that specializes in derailment clean up may have scrap rail that may be too damage to reuse, but could be cut into short sections to use as an anvil. Scrap metal dealer may have some as well. Rail also is measured by weight per yard, the heavier the better. Usually 132lb to 136# rail is the heaviest you'll find, 115# on the light side unless it was a crane rail or something.
Put the ball in a glass clear boiler tube mark the hight of the bounce you can test many metals for hardness and identify metal grades . Its a great shop addition .!
I wonder if you could heat the top surface of the track and quench by pouring oil over it to temper the steel. I imagine you'd have to harden it to a certain depth to make a decent wearing anvil. Food for thought.
I harden the end of a piece of 100lb track with an acetylene torch by wrapping k wool insulation around it to contain the heat. The used a garden hose to quench. I got over 90% rebound with ball bearings
On the first track that you tested, it seemd to me that it was cut with the torch very close to the surface that you tested. Maybe the heat from the cutting lowered the hardnes of the track.
track needs to be flexible to avoid breaking. remember that trains roll over the track. a bad wheel damages the rail by impacts from bouncing and then it needs to be ground smooth or replaced. the springiness is called the "modulus of elasticity" and can be precisely calculated. the rail sections have a code showing the date of manufacture, the contract number, and the foundry where it was made. you can look up the code and it will tell you everything about the composition if the rail.
Warning: once I smacked my spiking hammer into the line and a chip of steel broke off and shot into another workers arm 20 feet away. The x-ray showed it made it to the bone. Always wear safety glasses.
I have seen the sides wear off badly from wheel flanges on the sharper curves we have in Kentucky. Yes there are track greaser platforms that bounce and pump grease onto these areas before the curve starts but they still wear.
My friend who was a steel worker and welder left a small section in my garage. Been sitting there for years. Dont know what to do with it? He also sold me a used Victor professional HD gas welding torch set with everything including check valves for $60. Been sitting yrs, Never used it. lol
Ive made several anvils from rail... High guage modern was so hard it wiped out a carbide face mill while trying to surface it... Ended up having to use a surface grinder... Torches and abrasives are really the only way to deal with it properly.
If I remember correctly there was a way to yell wrought rail the modern rail head did not come about till the end of civil war Look at cut faces and compare shapes. I cannot remember the book but this fancy history professor wrote a book on how the railroad won the civil war and it was in depth with rail types and materials
Hey. I have a 1 foot section of track but it had plenty of trains rolling over it and its smooth and shiny. A blacksmithing friend told me that its likely work hardened from the trains going over it. I suspect that a well used track has some hardened metal on that top surface.
So everything you've tested so far has been too soft for those testing tools? Makes me think the testing tools need to be binned and you need to get a softer set maybe? ;)
The HRC scale is specifically made for hard steel. And for hard steel, 40HRC is already really soft. A typical anvil has a hardness of around 50 HRC, a kitchen knife would be somewhere between 55-65, a sword or a camp knife slightly softer than that. If you want to measure softer stuff, you generally just use a different scale, for example HRB. HRB and HRC overlap, low HRC values(< 20) and high HRB values(>100) are considered unreliable. Vickers hardness would also be suitable for a soft steel like that. But I don't think they make soft files like that. You'd probably have to get a proper durometer, something like a TH1101.
If the train track was hard, meaning a high Rockwell number, it would crack and break as any train rode over it. The track flexes very easily to keep the rail from breaking. Watch any rail as a train drives over it and see how much flex the rail has. And that makes for a longer lasting rail...
You should see how they make railroad track. They make it right onto special rail cars in continuous sections. Which bend as they pull it down the track. Stuff bends like it is a noodle.
I personally make custom knives an repair knives. I temper my own blades and have a Rockwell tester. I am wondering if by some chance you may have taken some of the surface temper out by grinding on the surface? Like drawing a knife blade from initial tempering to desired temper. From 68 R to 52R. I have learned many years ago that the tempting is the last step other than polishing it final. I have a rail that will bounce approx 85%. Looking like more and sounding a lot different than you demo. Just wondering!
What about crane rails? I work on overhead cranes and rail at a high duty cycle plant like a steel mill or trash plant can be extremely hard. As others have said new rail or lightly used rail is not all that hard. If I am to use a standard bimetal handsaw blade for reference it is designed to cut up to 45 rockwell c, new rail it will cut through with ease but heavily used rail can tear the teeth right off it before you get a bite. Just my own experience.
I'm not convinced that it's work hardening , I think the early steel may have better ingredients in it before they learned to make it less expensive . Just my $ .02
Modern is basically a 1084 equivalent. I have googled and done quite a bit of research as well as spark tested and successfully hardened things made directly from railroad tracks. If it is new to a few decades old its pretty much a 1084 equivalent.
I made mine from what is called a plug which is hardened steel they make the insulated joints from it and is many times harder than regular track. I have shot at it with an AR and my 1911 45 and never even marked it.
If you have a local machine shop or a manufacturing area. They should have an actual RockWell machine. If you ask nice they might help validate your findings. It can also validate your gauge set to give you confidence in your findings.
It would be probably quicker to use binary search method- try the lowest and highest first , then if sample is not softer than the lowest nor harder than the highest try the middle file. If harder than middle file, try the middle file in between middle file and highest, etc. If you have a 8 file kit you will find the right file in 3 tries, 16 file within 4 tries.
Rail road track is made to be less hard, so it's more forgiving for laying and for trains running over it also for repairing it, as very hard track would lead to unknown stresses buildings up which could end up being very bad. That said it's good for starting you could add a bit of hardened steel to the top to help.
I know basically nothing about heat treatment/steels so I am arguing from ignorance. My concern would be testing hardness close to a cut if you have no information how it was cut or how the cut will affect the zone near cut.
Bigger and newer rails generally are made with higher alloys. I have machined a number of rail chunks into ASO's (Anvil Shaped Objects) and that has been true in my experience, particularly when drilling for the hardy and pritchel holes. Check out this page where I have assembled some facts that talk about rail materials: spaco.org/Blacksmithing/Anvils/RailAnvils.htm See the link about half way down the page. Also, and this is, maybe, a minor point--- the larger piece you tested was apparently flame cut, whereas the other chunk was saw cut. To more accurately test the hardness in the future, one might want to move to the center section of the rail to make sure that the preheating at the cut end of the one rail didn't cause spot annealing. But---- I am glad that you are demonstrating the hardness testing files. I have a set myself. I even went so far as to buy a real Rc hardness tester a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, when I got it home most the "guts" were missing, so I took it back. Bummer!
I started with a hunk of RR track about 20 yrs ago wasn't bad, was good enough to get me started! then scored a 200lb chunk of H13 which was part of a flattening die set from work this came from an Ajax 500T forge press, then I aquired what I thought was a european style anvil (label said cast steel!) found out it was iron, ditched that! got my current anvil Central Forge 100lb in 2005 and It has been through Holy H#ll and bacK! love it, remember these were the ones made in Russia! not the blue 55lb junkers! Also have a piece of crane rail and a 40lb chunk of D2 for backups as well
the heat generated may have altered the hardness of the steel. I would suggest doing this test on rails that are in use.I suspect that rails in use become work hardened over time as the steel wheels roll over the rails repeatedly
On parts of the rail called the insulated plugs are the hardest type of rail and they are prefabricated and are fitted into a section of rail. I have a piece of plug for my anvil. I have shot it with my .45 and not left a mark.
Old railroad tracks where made of mild steel from my understanding but they would work harden over time, what’s crazy is the wrought iron had better rebound than the steel
A lot of modern tracks, from what I understand, are alloyed such that they work harden on purpose - not quite mild, but I think the alloying element is manganese, but I'm not sure. That might be what the older ones had in them too.
if those are the size of rail tracks then they are pretty small. I have a section of track that is massive in height and width. Maybe twice the volume of those ones. I wonder what the difference is. Over near where I live is a stretch of rail track that has been abandoned, and is closer to what I have, so I am not sure what those tracks are. Interesting to watch however. Very informative. Thankyou.
I have some of the largest railroad in the state that is hardened steel it is exceptionally hardened that I have not been able to scar with 4lbs square rounding hammer blows. the face of the track is 4 inches wide on its face side 12 inches long 6 inches Tall and 57 lbs. I do not know what they did to harden this track but it is fully Hardened track maybe work hardened . I did ball bearing test and the ball bounced like a rubber ball and rang umber high pitch ring.
You are testing near the end, which looks like it was torch cut, which will have also heated the adjacent steel. If you are testing an annealed area of this steel, of course it is soft. I have a used piece of track cut from a rail with a horizontal band saw. It is QUITE hard, especially on the top surface.
I see a lot more of the little steel tracks than the track I have. Mine is much bigger and wider. Surely the steel is the same but it was pretty tuff and held up well compared to a cast iron anvil.
Having done some smithery on and off over the last 60 years but by no means claiming to be any sort of expert, I've been wondering if a liberal coating of 'hard facing' rod, like what is used on the front edges of earth movers, bucket loaders, etc. might not help a bit or whether it might prove to be too brittle. Your thoughts?
Just the HAZ (heat affected zone) not a very wide area at all. But it will actually harden the steel very locally somewhat because it heats rapidly but also cools rapidly because of the mass of the steel. Even more pronounced if you cool in water after cutting. You should let it cool in air. We would cnc oxy propane cut blanks or collars for our machinist and he would know if the young fella cleaning them up had water cooled them to speed up handling, denied it of course but caught him at it a few times and got repremanded ( tell tail puddles of water). Usually boiler plate like 460 (AS/NZS) grades or A516 (ASTM) grades. I may be off on explanation technically but this is from experience and hear say from the QA (quality assurance) guys.
Would love to see you use those files testing a high carbon piece of steel, like maybe 1080 or higher. And maybe some scrap metal like coil or leaf spring maybe lawnmower blade. Things like that
Railroad track, particularly that used on main lines, will work harden. That is one of the main reasons track is periodically replaced. You steel sample, with the upturned end may have been used at the end of a spur with little traffic or work hardening. Your wrought iron track is probably of mid-19th century date. Steel rails were one of the first products once the Bessemer steel making process came in in the last third of the 19th century. It would be interesting to see a follow up testing an actual work hardened modern rail.
modern track can be of different compositions(260Mn is the commonly used modern standard in The Netherlands) there is also "head-hardened"variety(mhh maganese headhardened); it is the wear/flattening of the profile of the head/top why replacement usually is done. Reshaping can be done but is temporary and expensive. Mind you, railroadtracks weight around 54-60 kg per meter and be used for decades by trains, but it behaves like spagetti when longer than appr. 16m and handled...scary when a long piece oftrack jumps upand down, side to side up to 3 m when it slips from a cranegrip....
Curious... why does that ball bounce so much higher on the iron one? That seems to contradict logic... maybe I’m crazy. Also, hardening the track anvil... thought hitting hardened steel was a no-no... maybe it won’t get hard enough
Not sure how much difference it makes, but on one of the sections you tested it looks like you are testing very close to where the track was cut by a torch. This could have an effect.
I would assume that most of it is under forty, but depending on if it was new or used the top may be work hardened but not over fifty because of the carbon content being low.
I made a Rail Anvil in the fall of 1969 in High School Machine Shop. I heated it to between yellow and white color, then buried it in lime for three days. Machined the anvil, then hardened and tempered the anvil. One quench in oil one in water. I gave it to my father in law for Christmas that year. He used it for 30 years in the body shop. When he passed the anvil was returned to me. I still have that anvil, and it looks no worse for wear, and still rings like a bell.
Sounds good. I recently checked. Rail steel is not just high manganese but also has a good bit of carbon. Modern stuff basically 40-80 points with 40-60 being sidelines and 60-80 mainlines and high speed in the German standards for example. Some standards even allow 85 points....good steel. Can't wait to get my hands on some modern track cutoffs :P
Very nice! Would it be enough to just quench in water after the other steps or do I have to do oil first?
@@ollipeter6311 water only
I retired after a 41 year career in the mechanical department of a major railroad, and I can tell you that there is a staggering amount to know about rail! What’s out there on the railroad mainlines of today is a very specialized product. If you go back in rail history to, say, 1950, most rolling stock weighed in the 50 to 70 ton range. The passage of railcars of this weight work hardened the rail fairly quickly, and that rail resisted wear fairly well. Over the decades, as car design and the desire to move more freight per car grew, those 50-70 ton cars were slowly replaced, and by the 90’s nearly all railcars were 100 tons or greater! It became obvious that a bad side effect of all this extra weight was excessive wear on new rail that often manifested itself by mushrooming the top of the rail, commonly called the “ball”! Modern locomotives often exceed 410,000 lbs, and that’s without fuel, which they hold 5,000 gallons of! Another factor, mentioned in several comments, was the obvious use of an acetylene torch to cut the rail. Many years ago the Federal Railroad Administration, or FRA, banned the use of oxy-fuel torches for cutting rail because of the severe molecular changes the intense heat caused within the rail! Two cycle abrasive disc saws are the preferred weapon nowadays!
Thanks Roy. No real surprise, I have noticed some dings over time, but I’m not doing any heavy smith work. So since it works for me, is on a stand the perfect height for me, and came directly from the guy repairing and straightening and repairing the track, on site, it was also Free! Nice to have some confirmation. Thanks again.
I agree with Bart W. I have had a couple of rail chunks. My favorite, was the 'used' rail. It was work hardened, and gave a fair rebound. My second chunk, acquired from a friend that worked for the railroad, was new track, and definitely softer. A cheap ballpein, would ding the face, at a half force blow.
@Stoneryoda 937 true, but the point is, a missed blow. Happens to us all at one point or another
Modern railroad track is high manganese steel; which means it work hardens a LOT. Makes sense too, as driving trains over it will harden the surface; while the bottom remains springy. If you wanna use them as anvils; get the matching fish plates, and weld those in. This will help a lot in rigidity as the core can flex. also more mass. Those parts of track look like ancient history.
What is Matching Fish Plates Mean?
@@puppygadget3189 They're splice bars that fit into the sides of the rails typically used to join two sections of track. Welding them in like Bart says will add substantially more mass under the hammer. I've actually got my piece of steel track set up to stand on end and use it as a small post anvil for some knife work with the center and "bottom" flange ground to different radii to use for bending.
Actually we call them joint bars.
Having worked for a railroad for 47 years, I can say that you will find no modern rail as scrap. Having said that, you may get lucky and find a piece of manganese rail that was cut out to destress. They use the rail for years and years. It was all mild steel. If a person could find some head hardened rail, that would be best. It's pretty rare, since it is expensive and gets used in troublesome curves, only. However, one can hard surface the mild steel rail then grind it flat, with pretty good results. Joint bars will help with the mass.
So, if you get a rail section and beat on it for a few hours, would that work-harden it?
I used to work at a rail welding plant. We would cut the old bolt ends off in preparation for welding 1/4 mile strings of rail. No bolts. We had gondola cars full of the cut offs . Every friend, relative or acquaintance I had now owns a rail anvil. I still have 5. Steel production dates are stamped in the metal.
Railway line is basically mild steel, I have machined, drilled , and rolled it millions of times at work🤙🐊
Thanks for the video. I used your video and the one you did on the 66 lb. anvil from eBay to make my decision. Currently have a railroad track anvil, just ordered the new one. Thank you for taking the time to do this, it helped a lot in my decision making process.
# if you Heat that sucker up quench it in water surely you would get better results Roy, would make an interesting video?
techron mattic - see my comment.
Another great video. I’ve been watching this series but have waited until now to write a comment. This series is very informative for those of us interested in smithing even if they’re geared toward beginning smiths. I’ve subscribed to your channel and have recommended it to several friends. Keep up the good work.
I was given a piece of rail and I love it. Also was given half a hinge pin from a Cat mining truck. Both are great, and I still haven't bought an anvil.
Very interesting results. Thank you for sharing.
🙏 God bless yall now Mr Roy
Crawford out ⚒️🧙♂️
Cool test Roy! Thanks for sharing and God Bless you guys!
The steel track speaks to tome me the most. But I will take whatever I can get (legally of course). Thank you for the informative video. God bless.
The important thing about anvils, are that they need mass to be effective. That's why anvils are heavy. The mass pushes back against the work (as well as absorbing vibration), instead of just transferring energy into vibration. Railroad track anvils do have their place for light work though.
Yup. That's where a good base will help since it can absorb some of the energy
My first anvil was 3 RR tracks welded together. 2 side by side and one upside down welded together as the face of the anvil. Worked great!
that's something most people don't seem to realise, those tracks are best used upside down! there's no hardness difference using that big flat it's just a huge waste otherwise.
if you've got one piece turn it upside down!
I work for a heritage railway and made an anvil from track. I upturned so the base is the flat surface this then sits on timber and fixed at either end with a welded plate. It works both well, has minimal noise and absorbs minimal force.
Good Stuff Roy, I would agree with Bart, newer rail is extremely hard and becomes work hardened as tens of thousands of rail cars pound the surface until it’s replaced. Being said tracks are not replaced due to age but due to wear or breaks. I have a few pieces of newer 130 pound mainline track I tested with the same files and all pieces came between 60-65 Rockwell (C), the 60 skated across like glass and the 65 just started to scratch the surface. This being said I don’t believe torch or abrasive cutting of the track changes its hardness much as I tested a portion at a weld, and most mainline tracks are welded together using thermite welders which I’m sure gets it pretty hot. All this being said if you’re going to use a track as a anvil try to find a heavier gauge 130ish. And if you’re wondering how they come up with rail sizes and weight it’s based on how much a yard of the rail weighs. A yard of freight mainline track weighs on average 130 pounds. Much lighter rail 75 pound is found mostly in yards and not very common these days.
Nice test, I have 2 track anvils and have a rebound test showing the differences on my channel, both of mine are new high speed rail which I was provided a spec sheet with and show 0.7% carbon and high manganese and silicon. My used double has hardened considerably and both chewed up and spat out tungsten tips on the milling machine. They are weak and noisy without the web supported or filled in. 👍 Still thankyou for showing even if it does not correspond with what I have at home 😃
I feel better about my a36 post anvil now. Much cheaper than a chunk of rail that might have been even softer.
Well I got my rail free so beggers can't be choosy
@@bobsmith-ud9xi right👍
Not all track is the same. I remember reading that the larger the track the higher carbon content and one key thing to remember is that is work hardens. I've got a piece about 5' long that weighs around 200 pounds and has really mushroomed edges that skates chainsaw files like they're nothing. Skates them better than my Brooks anvil in fact.
That is really impressive. I recently purchased some railroad track from 1949 and I noticed the mushroom effect but these are more on one side than the other. It looks like the tracks I got are at least 7 in tall and they are very heavy duty. I also have some smaller 5-in track that I have come across and it has the same mushroom effect but more on one side. I will be testing them as soon as my tester comes in.
Nice review Roy, I was really surprise the track was so soft, I expected it to be really hard. Wayne
I used a 2 foot piece of track and an inch and one half chisel to break logging chain. It did exactly what I wanted for 40 years... I will say the hardened chisel made a mess of the top surface of the track. If it got too bad I would grind it smooth with a 7 inch disc grinder and start again... The track was given to me by a friend and really proved best tool for what I used it.
A friend of mine gave me a piece of track, I reckon I'll beat on it some with a harbor freight hammer 🤷♂️ I have no clue what I'm doing.... I'm about as green as a sailor from Nebraska 🤣
Question answered , thanks Roy. Enjoy your videos.
Finally you achieved to correctly pronounce the word acciaio
@@bashpr0mpt719 Seen a few people get that treatment it's half the reason i barely comment
and given the name of his ironworks it gives us Christians a bad name
we ain't all like that
@@johngalt969 well then I will just not post my question about why he's not testing modern rails instead of hundred year old junk.
Great information. I would have liked to see the different color Sparks from the two samples. Thanks for posting.
Man that soft track has been well traveled from 7’ deep in Eastern Pa to Texas to Michigan lol. Roy I sold that track to Daniel in September at quadstate lol
Charming Hollow Forge I’ve got a chunk in NE
Not wanting the train track to be brittle makes perfect sense. My question is, can the steel track be hardened more than it is? It would be interesting you you to heat it, quench it and retest it.
That’s exactly what I was wondering. I have a 3’ section that was given to me by a family member who works for BNSF and I would really like to know if I can harden it or maybe even attach a piece of maybe AR plate which is a 65 on the Rockwell scale?
Cool tests! Always wondered about track anvils
Never knew there was an affordable Rockwell file set. At work all metal was tested using a station where it hit then recorded the hardness.
If you're going to buy a cheap cast iron anvil, you should consider buying some (fairly) cheap hard surfacing rod and fixing the top of the anvil to be as hard as you desire. It's easy to hard surface, more of a pain to make it flat again, but if you do the anvil will outlast your children. I've been using two now for around forty years.
Believe me when I say old rail like that is much softer than modern rail. I cut rail working for the railroad for 40 years and cut rail dated all the way from the 1880s to 2018 rail when I retired. All rails have the year of manufacture on them. Modern "head hardened" rail eats a blade after a few cuts and old rail is like you said "butter" and one blade will last quite a while.
My friend from Mexico he have Rail Anvil he does a amazing jobs with it's he have customers that love his jobs with a small a hammer and torch he does a lot of jobs he does that's awesome job
Greetings from Michigan. Glad your friend makes good work.
Thank you.. This is a great infomation
I forged many Christmas gifts two years ago on a track anvil. I made a few hardy tools for it as well. Compared to my Peter Wright there is none. I only used it to prove to myself that its not the tool its the Smith; sound familiar? A missed hammer swing dented it pretty good. Thanks for all you do Brother
great idea thanks for sharing! great video!
I thought that they might have work hardened over time. I guess not.
If you look around, you may find a local company that deals in used rail. You may have to buy a whole section, but you could always have it cut into smaller pieces and sell them off yourself to other buyers. Places like RJ Corman that specializes in derailment clean up may have scrap rail that may be too damage to reuse, but could be cut into short sections to use as an anvil. Scrap metal dealer may have some as well. Rail also is measured by weight per yard, the heavier the better. Usually 132lb to 136# rail is the heaviest you'll find, 115# on the light side unless it was a crane rail or something.
I like Railroad track anvils because they're nice and Compact and you can make them for what you want
Put the ball in a glass clear boiler tube mark the hight of the bounce you can test many metals for hardness and identify metal grades . Its a great shop addition .!
I wonder if you could heat the top surface of the track and quench by pouring oil over it to temper the steel.
I imagine you'd have to harden it to a certain depth to make a decent wearing anvil.
Food for thought.
I harden the end of a piece of 100lb track with an acetylene torch by wrapping k wool insulation around it to contain the heat. The used a garden hose to quench. I got over 90% rebound with ball bearings
What would change if you tried to heat them up and then quench them? Maybe nothing maybe something?
Old books on blacksmithing tell you to do so. Those haven't had that done.
On the first track that you tested, it seemd to me that it was cut with the torch very close to the surface that you tested. Maybe the heat from the cutting lowered the hardnes of the track.
track needs to be flexible to avoid breaking. remember that trains roll over the track. a bad wheel damages the rail by impacts from bouncing and then it needs to be ground smooth or replaced. the springiness is called the "modulus of elasticity" and can be precisely calculated. the rail sections have a code showing the date of manufacture, the contract number, and the foundry where it was made. you can look up the code and it will tell you everything about the composition if the rail.
Warning: once I smacked my spiking hammer into the line and a chip of steel broke off and shot into another workers arm 20 feet away. The x-ray showed it made it to the bone. Always wear safety glasses.
I have seen the sides wear off badly from wheel flanges on the sharper curves we have in Kentucky. Yes there are track greaser platforms that bounce and pump grease onto these areas before the curve starts but they still wear.
Just happened 2 notice in the backround it looks like u may b buildin a couple burners
My friend who was a steel worker and welder left a small section in my garage. Been sitting there for years. Dont know what to do with it? He also sold me a used Victor professional HD gas welding torch set with everything including check valves for $60. Been sitting yrs, Never used it. lol
Ive made several anvils from rail... High guage modern was so hard it wiped out a carbide face mill while trying to surface it... Ended up having to use a surface grinder... Torches and abrasives are really the only way to deal with it properly.
Good one
Thank you
If I remember correctly there was a way to yell wrought rail the modern rail head did not come about till the end of civil war
Look at cut faces and compare shapes. I cannot remember the book but this fancy history professor wrote a book on how the railroad won the civil war and it was in depth with rail types and materials
Hey. I have a 1 foot section of track but it had plenty of trains rolling over it and its smooth and shiny. A blacksmithing friend told me that its likely work hardened from the trains going over it. I suspect that a well used track has some hardened metal on that top surface.
So everything you've tested so far has been too soft for those testing tools? Makes me think the testing tools need to be binned and you need to get a softer set maybe? ;)
The HRC scale is specifically made for hard steel. And for hard steel, 40HRC is already really soft.
A typical anvil has a hardness of around 50 HRC, a kitchen knife would be somewhere between 55-65, a sword or a camp knife slightly softer than that.
If you want to measure softer stuff, you generally just use a different scale, for example HRB. HRB and HRC overlap, low HRC values(< 20) and high HRB values(>100) are considered unreliable. Vickers hardness would also be suitable for a soft steel like that.
But I don't think they make soft files like that. You'd probably have to get a proper durometer, something like a TH1101.
If the train track was hard, meaning a high Rockwell number, it would crack and break as any train rode over it. The track flexes very easily to keep the rail from breaking. Watch any rail as a train drives over it and see how much flex the rail has. And that makes for a longer lasting rail...
You should see how they make railroad track. They make it right onto special rail cars in continuous sections. Which bend as they pull it down the track. Stuff bends like it is a noodle.
I personally make custom knives an repair knives. I temper my own blades and have a Rockwell tester. I am wondering if by some chance you may have taken some of the surface temper out by grinding on the surface? Like drawing a knife blade from initial tempering to desired temper. From 68 R to 52R. I have learned many years ago that the tempting is the last step other than polishing it final. I have a rail that will bounce approx 85%. Looking like more and sounding a lot different than you demo. Just wondering!
Yeah I wondering if the really old stuff was much better quility. My track anvil is very hard , tough and doesn't really rust . good stuff.
What about crane rails? I work on overhead cranes and rail at a high duty cycle plant like a steel mill or trash plant can be extremely hard. As others have said new rail or lightly used rail is not all that hard. If I am to use a standard bimetal handsaw blade for reference it is designed to cut up to 45 rockwell c, new rail it will cut through with ease but heavily used rail can tear the teeth right off it before you get a bite. Just my own experience.
I'm not convinced that it's work hardening , I think the early steel may have better ingredients in it before they learned to make it less expensive . Just my $ .02
Thanks so much for sharing this information!! I just subcribed to your Chanel. Blessings to you and your family 😇
Modern is basically a 1084 equivalent. I have googled and done quite a bit of research as well as spark tested and successfully hardened things made directly from railroad tracks. If it is new to a few decades old its pretty much a 1084 equivalent.
I made mine from what is called a plug which is hardened steel they make the insulated joints from it and is many times harder than regular track. I have shot at it with an AR and my 1911 45 and never even marked it.
I may be wrong but I think that narrow track is pre civil war. The narrow track was used pre 1865 and was changed out during the war.
I may be wrong but that end looks cut with a torch so that would make it much softer so i would try it in the middle
If you have a local machine shop or a manufacturing area. They should have an actual RockWell machine. If you ask nice they might help validate your findings. It can also validate your gauge set to give you confidence in your findings.
I can promise you his findings are accurate modern railroad tracks and fairly soft to help reduce the chance of breaks.
It would be probably quicker to use binary search method- try the lowest and highest first , then if sample is not softer than the lowest nor harder than the highest try the middle file. If harder than middle file, try the middle file in between middle file and highest, etc. If you have a 8 file kit you will find the right file in 3 tries, 16 file within 4 tries.
Rail road track is made to be less hard, so it's more forgiving for laying and for trains running over it also for repairing it, as very hard track would lead to unknown stresses buildings up which could end up being very bad. That said it's good for starting you could add a bit of hardened steel to the top to help.
I know basically nothing about heat treatment/steels so I am arguing from ignorance. My concern would be testing hardness close to a cut if you have no information how it was cut or how the cut will affect the zone near cut.
Bigger and newer rails generally are made with higher alloys. I have machined a number of rail chunks into ASO's (Anvil Shaped Objects) and that has been true in my experience, particularly when drilling for the hardy and pritchel holes.
Check out this page where I have assembled some facts that talk about rail materials:
spaco.org/Blacksmithing/Anvils/RailAnvils.htm
See the link about half way down the page.
Also, and this is, maybe, a minor point--- the larger piece you tested was apparently flame cut, whereas the other chunk was saw cut. To more accurately test the hardness in the future, one might want to move to the center section of the rail to make sure that the preheating at the cut end of the one rail didn't cause spot annealing.
But---- I am glad that you are demonstrating the hardness testing files. I have a set myself. I even went so far as to buy a real Rc hardness tester a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, when I got it home most the "guts" were missing, so I took it back. Bummer!
I started with a hunk of RR track about 20 yrs ago wasn't bad, was good enough to get me started! then scored a 200lb chunk of H13 which was part of a flattening die set from work this came from an Ajax 500T forge press, then I aquired what I thought was a european style anvil (label said cast steel!) found out it was iron, ditched that! got my current anvil Central Forge 100lb in 2005 and It has been through Holy H#ll and bacK! love it, remember these were the ones made in Russia! not the blue 55lb junkers! Also have a piece of crane rail and a 40lb chunk of D2 for backups as well
Would be interesting to cut a piece off of each, try to harden it, and then re-test it.
the heat generated may have altered the hardness of the steel. I would suggest doing this test on rails that are in use.I suspect that rails in use become work hardened over time as the steel wheels roll over the rails repeatedly
On parts of the rail called the insulated plugs are the hardest type of rail and they are prefabricated and are fitted into a section of rail. I have a piece of plug for my anvil. I have shot it with my .45 and not left a mark.
Old railroad tracks where made of mild steel from my understanding but they would work harden over time,
what’s crazy is the wrought iron had better rebound than the steel
A lot of modern tracks, from what I understand, are alloyed such that they work harden on purpose - not quite mild, but I think the alloying element is manganese, but I'm not sure.
That might be what the older ones had in them too.
Love your title !
if those are the size of rail tracks then they are pretty small.
I have a section of track that is massive in height and width. Maybe twice the volume of those ones.
I wonder what the difference is.
Over near where I live is a stretch of rail track that has been abandoned, and is closer to what I have, so I am not sure what those tracks are.
Interesting to watch however. Very informative. Thankyou.
I have some of the largest railroad in the state that is hardened steel it is exceptionally hardened that I have not been able to scar with 4lbs square rounding hammer blows. the face of the track is 4 inches wide on its face side 12 inches long 6 inches Tall and 57 lbs. I do not know what they did to harden this track but it is fully Hardened track maybe work hardened . I did ball bearing test and the ball bounced like a rubber ball and rang umber high pitch ring.
The wrought iron is better used for traditional smithing and blademaking, than being used as an anvil.
You are testing near the end, which looks like it was torch cut, which will have also heated the adjacent steel. If you are testing an annealed area of this steel, of course it is soft.
I have a used piece of track cut from a rail with a horizontal band saw. It is QUITE hard, especially on the top surface.
It might have softened on that end when it was cut. Dont know how or how hot it got when it was cut.
I see a lot more of the little steel tracks than the track I have. Mine is much bigger and wider. Surely the steel is the same but it was pretty tuff and held up well compared to a cast iron anvil.
not understanding why this was pushed to me, but maybe now I need an anvil
there is a manganese rail that is much harder than either of the rails shown. The used rail has a work hardened shell about 3/16 thick.
It all depends on the heat treatment and various types of temperature controlled cooling and carbon levels.
As a child break a railroad track with a sledge hammer.. He was a track repair man from 17 years old till retirement.
so is a railroad anvil worth using , for a beginner?
Having done some smithery on and off over the last 60 years but by no means claiming to be any sort of expert, I've been wondering if a liberal coating of 'hard facing' rod, like what is used on the front edges of earth movers, bucket loaders, etc. might not help a bit or whether it might prove to be too brittle. Your thoughts?
Good info. I enjoyed your vid. God Bless
How was that track cut? Torch?wouldnt that affect the hardness?
Just the HAZ (heat affected zone) not a very wide area at all. But it will actually harden the steel very locally somewhat because it heats rapidly but also cools rapidly because of the mass of the steel. Even more pronounced if you cool in water after cutting. You should let it cool in air. We would cnc oxy propane cut blanks or collars for our machinist and he would know if the young fella cleaning them up had water cooled them to speed up handling, denied it of course but caught him at it a few times and got repremanded ( tell tail puddles of water). Usually boiler plate like 460 (AS/NZS) grades or A516 (ASTM) grades.
I may be off on explanation technically but this is from experience and hear say from the QA (quality assurance) guys.
Would love to see you use those files testing a high carbon piece of steel, like maybe 1080 or higher. And maybe some scrap metal like coil or leaf spring maybe lawnmower blade. Things like that
Lawnmower blades are soft. It wouldn't be smart to spin hard steel close to the ground fast where it might hit a rock and shatter.
i got a piece from a power station thats had coal trains running on it so much its flattened over, ive worked on it a load and it hasnt moved
What if you quench it?
Checking nearest the torch cut may skew the results
Railroad track, particularly that used on main lines, will work harden. That is one of the main reasons track is periodically replaced. You steel sample, with the upturned end may have been used at the end of a spur with little traffic or work hardening. Your wrought iron track is probably of mid-19th century date. Steel rails were one of the first products once the Bessemer steel making process came in in the last third of the 19th century.
It would be interesting to see a follow up testing an actual work hardened modern rail.
modern track can be of different compositions(260Mn is the commonly used modern standard in The Netherlands) there is also "head-hardened"variety(mhh maganese headhardened); it is the wear/flattening of the profile of the head/top why replacement usually is done. Reshaping can be done but is temporary and expensive. Mind you, railroadtracks weight around 54-60 kg per meter and be used for decades by trains, but it behaves like spagetti when longer than appr. 16m and handled...scary when a long piece oftrack jumps upand down, side to side up to 3 m when it slips from a cranegrip....
Curious... why does that ball bounce so much higher on the iron one? That seems to contradict logic... maybe I’m crazy. Also, hardening the track anvil... thought hitting hardened steel was a no-no... maybe it won’t get hard enough
Thats was cool 2 c as thats what i started on
Not sure how much difference it makes, but on one of the sections you tested it looks like you are testing very close to where the track was cut by a torch. This could have an effect.
Well I did learn something though
I would assume that most of it is under forty, but depending on if it was new or used the top may be work hardened but not over fifty because of the carbon content being low.
Acciaio actually means steel in Italian but other then that keep up the great work
I would also think by having the rough grooves from your sanding would result in a lot less accurate results
Of course it is not hardened It’s not supposed to be hardened. It’s an anvil.
Trains work harden the face of the track that they ride on. But you ground that away so no worries there.
That’s what I started with and what I gave to my cousin